Edge Play

Sunday March 11, 2001
Edge Play

[21:07] * raven{Az} says Hello and welcome to #Leather_and_Roses' weekly discussions on BDSM topics. I hope you enjoy it. The following rules apply for all present.
[21:08] <subdancer> i hate that, i had to replace all my Metallica too
[21:08] <raven{Az}> You must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave. Legal age being 18 or 21 depending on your location, if you are thought to be younger, you will be asked your age. If you are found to be younger, you will be kick/banned.
[21:08] <raven{Az}> No trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night Trolling is the advertising of yourself, wants/needs/desires, and/or personal ads. If you troll, you will be kick/banned.
[21:08] <raven{Az}> Harassment will not be tolerated either. If you harass another person, and an op is made aware of it, you will be asked to stop. If you continue, you will be kick/banned. This discussion is for enjoyment and information, not harassment.
[21:08] <raven{Az}> Please try to stay on topic and discuss one thread at a time. If the discussion gets overly fast (or overly emotional, or someone requests a break), I will call a break. This is so everyone can take a few moments to relax, and get their thoughts in order before continuing.
[21:08] <raven{Az}> If it erodes into a semantics argument, and those who are disagreeing can not agree to disagree, I will close the discussion for the night. We are here to discuss and learn from one anther, not fight with one another.
[21:08] <raven{Az}> Please be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. Flaming is insulting the person who states an idea. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[21:09] <raven{Az}> All statements are publishable on the web site,. I will change nicks if it is requested via email to ravenshad@mindspring.com. If I receive no requests, logs will be published in full on the web site and the lack of a request will be taken as consent to publish your statements.
[21:09] <raven{Az}> I hope you enjoy tonight's discussion, the topic is Edge Play...
[21:09] <raven{Az}> Let's start with this..what is edge play to you?
[21:09] <ayli> anything that could result in real harm?
[21:09] <simi> Activities that fall outside the generally considered "norm"
[21:09] <Flagg> almost anything could result in harm.
[21:10] <^Guil> <joke mode /> anything that squicks me but not somebody else</joke mode>
[21:10] <simi> LoL
[21:10] <subdancer> taken to the edge of my limits and kicked over that edge then pulled back at the last second
[21:10] * Flagg thinks edgeplay is what falls beyond the consensus of the immediate community consensus.
[21:10] <Tatsumi> edge play (to me) is any activity that pushes the limits of the partcipant's comfort levels
[21:10] <Flagg> Immediate community.
[21:11] <simi> Yes! That's what I meant to say, just what *HE* said!
[21:11] <Flagg> Dammit.
[21:11] <^Guil> .....but that is seriously an issue, as I have seen untold holy wars over things people think are edge play that are just things that squick them...
[21:11] <ayli> damn.. if ya'll are my comunity.. nothing is sacred
[21:11] <raven{Az}> LOL Guil...
[21:11] <raven{Az}> I agree Guil...
[21:11] <simi> Scary thought, eh ayli?
[21:11] <bella{D}> lol ayli
[21:11] * ayli giggles
[21:11] <ayli> well.. no
[21:11] <Flagg> playing with Ken.
[21:11] * alysse_ wonders what "squick" means
[21:11] <ayli> ACK
[21:11] <ayli> no
[21:11] <ayli> no playing with Ken
[21:11] <simi> good god
[21:12] <ayli> No playing with Ken, No pLaying with FLagg.
[21:12] <bella{D}> ayli....talking to Flagg...playing with Ken....
[21:12] <KimiD> :waves:
[21:12] <^Guil> well, let's be specific, then.....
[21:12] * Flagg is the nice one.
[21:12] <ayli> hi Kimi :)
[21:12] <^Guil> breath play?
[21:12] <raven{Az}> ok...so generally speaking edge play would be those activities which push the limits (soft or hard) of the people involved and may end up harming (physically/mentally) the sub.. ?
[21:12] <bella{D}> all edge play
[21:12] <^Guil> edge i.e. knife play?
[21:12] <simi> It wouldn't be my definition, but it'll work as well as any, I spose
[21:12] <Tatsumi> i think have the potential to harm the sub is better than may end up...
[21:13] <Flagg> Limit pushing may be the key- I thing defitions revolving around harm and injury are moot; but pushing the hard limits may be closer to the truth...
[21:13] <^Guil> by that definition, a caning by someone who doesn't know what they're doing is edge play...
[21:13] <raven{Az}> What is your definition simi?
[21:13] <^Guil> that was at Tats comment, btw...
[21:13] <KimiD> i don't know that limits apply...none of the edge play i've ever done was a "limit" for me
[21:13] <raven{Az}> I agree with taht Tats, for my definition anyway...
[21:14] <simi> I think it's more focused around activities which are outside what is generally accepted by the BDSM masses as acceptable play
[21:14] <KimiD> i agree with simi
[21:14] * Flagg agrees with simi.
[21:14] <bella{D}> edge play is something that makes you rethink your choices that put you there.
[21:14] <Tatsumi> Guil, that's not edge play, thats just stupid:))
[21:14] <raven{Az}> so what activities would you say are generally accepted by the bdsm masses then?
[21:14] <raven{Az}> I agree with that btw.. :)
[21:14] <KimiD> flogging and rope bondage
[21:14] <simi> floggers, singles, signals, paddles, bondage...
[21:14] <KimiD> and nipple clamps
[21:15] <alysse_> minus the "who", sloppy typing
[21:15] <simi> but p/k, bloodsports are less accepted generally speaking
[21:15] <^Guil> I agree, Tats, my point being if "potential harm to the sub" is the criteria then "playing with under-skilled Doms/tops" is edge play...
[21:15] <Tatsumi> generally accepted: spanking, light bondage, light sensory deporvation
[21:15] <simi> Oh yes Kimi, can't forget the clamps :)
[21:15] <bella{D}> even just 'wading in' without a warmup for a beating is somewhat edgy to some.
[21:15] <KimiD> p/k?
[21:15] <simi> and the fur mitts
[21:15] <ayli> fur mitts?
[21:15] <simi> punching/kicking
[21:15] <KimiD> ahhh
[21:15] <ayli> punching kicking kimi
[21:15] <KimiD> thank you
[21:15] <Flagg> Punching/kicking, Kimi.
[21:15] <bella{D}> and bunny paddles
[21:15] * ayli is sloww
[21:15] <simi> ROFL
[21:15] <KimiD> <-isn't hip to the lingo
[21:15] <ayli> BUNNY Paddles??
[21:15] <simi> It's a Flagg-ism
[21:15] <bella{D}> bunny fur....
[21:16] * Flagg winces at the mention of furry mittens.
[21:16] <Tatsumi> rabit fur
[21:16] <bella{D}> so soft....so.....gentle....
[21:16] * Tatsumi sighs
[21:16] <simi> LMAO Flagg
[21:16] <ayli> yuck?
[21:16] <bella{D}> lol
[21:16] <raven{Az}> I agree with that simi..why do you think blood sports are not genearlly accepted? (by blood sports, I am including any activity done specifically to draw blood...cutting etc)
[21:17] <Rorschach> The draw of blood seems to more of a squick to many people
[21:17] <bella{D}> it is automatically viewed as 'harm'
[21:17] <simi> Because there's this idea buzzing around.... about subs being a prized possession
[21:17] <raven{Az}> It could be edge play Guil...(playing wiht inexperienced tops/doms) in that sense..but I don't know if i personally would include it
[21:17] <KimiD> hi raven :)
[21:17] <bella{D}> i am a gift dammit!
[21:17] <Rorschach> Perhaps it's the thought of permenant damage ... ie scars
[21:17] <ayli> most people seem to think that it's... obnoxious amounts of blood?
[21:17] <simi> and to draw blood from your prized possession is unthinkable!
[21:17] * ayli giggles
[21:17] <ayli> I'm a gift?
[21:17] <raven{Az}> LOL bella
[21:17] * Flagg shakes his head, slowly.
[21:17] <KimiD> i would think because the threat to SSC is high
[21:17] <simi> It's what I hear Flagg...
[21:17] <bella{D}> i am a submissive....my submission is a gift..thusly *I* am a gift...
[21:17] <bella{D}> lol
[21:18] * ayli starts analizing this idea.. I'm a gift
[21:18] <raven{Az}> I like the blood being drawn..granted, not a whole lot...but some is nice...
[21:18] <Tatsumi> most people think their blood should stay inside their skin for one. two, it's a percieved health risk to share blood. three, people think it's a bad hurt thing.... theres more, but i'm going on too much already
[21:18] <simi> "How can he hurt that which he should cherish so?"
[21:18] * alysse_ feels queasy reading the comments about blood
[21:18] <raven{Az}> because he/she likes it???
[21:18] <Flagg> because I want to?
[21:18] <^Guil> maybe another question: what's the upper boundary? when does it stop being edge play and because abuse/rape?
[21:18] <raven{Az}> What draws someone to edge play activities? (In your opinion)
[21:18] <simi> Seems reasonable to me, Flagg :)
[21:18] <KimiD> the thrill
[21:18] <Flagg> Sometimes it's both, Guil.
[21:18] <simi> Besides, I have skin on which blood in goodly amounts looks rather nice dripping on
[21:19] <bella{D}> the art
[21:19] <KimiD> most edge play i know creates a huge adrenilin rush from fear
[21:19] <KimiD> at least for me
[21:19] <Flagg> retroactive consent, or it's lack.
[21:19] <Tatsumi> playing with limits, personal edges autmatically bring the particpants closer if the experience is a positive one
[21:19] <Tatsumi> you're forcing a trust risk
[21:19] <Flagg> Trust game!
[21:19] * ayli beats the girl child
[21:19] <Tatsumi> yeppes Flagg
[21:20] * Flagg falls slowly backwards, eyes closed...
[21:20] <simi> If Ror slashes open my right butt cheek, it's not a trust risk for me
[21:20] * Tatsumi steps to the side
[21:20] <raven{Az}> I would think that where one's upper limits are would be a personal decision Guil...I find it very difficult to label anything specific as absolutely always abuse (within the areas of consensual play activities)
[21:20] <KimiD> :watches Flagg hit the floor:
[21:20] <Tatsumi> :))
[21:20] <subdancer> consentual non consent
[21:20] <bella{D}> we do it because Draco likes to see me in pain and bleeding...
[21:20] <simi> It's a large turn-on, but not a trust risk
[21:20] * Flagg hits the floor in a puff of dust and jingle of spurs
[21:20] <raven{Az}> why would edge play be a trust risk?
[21:20] * simi steals the spurs
[21:20] * ayli looks down at Flagg
[21:20] <KimiD> :cups her ears for the sound of bells:
[21:20] <simi> I always liked those spurs
[21:20] <Flagg> ow.
[21:21] <ayli> someone bury him before he starts stinking
[21:21] * bella{D} hands Flagg some asprin...
[21:21] <Flagg> To late!
[21:21] <subdancer> oops
[21:21] <Tatsumi> if you are pushing your personal egdes, you are trending in some scary territory. you have to trust the person you're with a LOT to do that
[21:21] <ayli> oh.. he's not dead!
[21:21] * Flagg is a stinker
[21:21] <Tatsumi> edge play reinforces that trust
[21:21] <ayli> sorry Flagg.. I thought you were ... well.. dead
[21:21] <simi> What if the activities you are doing are only edge play to onlookers?
[21:21] <bella{D}> then you get an interesting rep
[21:21] <simi> Most of what we do we're pretty happy doing... there's no issues
[21:22] <Flagg> It all seems to me to revolve around what get said when the dust settles- thus- retroactive consent.
[21:22] <simi> Except with those watching
[21:22] <ayli> then you shouldn't do it in front of othrs, or only in front of people who can deal?
[21:22] <Tatsumi> then i dont think you are pushing your personal issues simi, so it's not about trust persay but about what you enjoy:)
[21:22] <simi> with all due respect, ayli....Bullshit
[21:22] <ayli> it was a question
[21:22] <ayli> simi
[21:22] <alysse_> goodnight folks... getting late here. Be well.
[21:22] <simi> But is it edgeplay Tats?
[21:22] *** alysse_ (athabasca@=p6jsn3p447.std.com) has left #Leather_And_Roses
[21:22] <Flagg> Good night.
[21:22] <bella{D}> if you don't like needles, and see someone setting them up for play...you can leave.
[21:22] <simi> Sorry ayli, that wasn't personal
[21:22] * ayli didn't word it right I guess..
[21:22] <simi> no no no
[21:23] <simi> my fault entirely... I mentioned you only so you'd know I was responding to you.
[21:23] <^Guil> thanks....
[21:23] <simi> No other reason
[21:23] <ayli> okay
[21:23] <Tatsumi> i think it would be defined as others as edge play and you might explain it that way for convience but i wouldn't see it that way between you two simi
[21:23] <^Guil> somebody message me with what I missed?
[21:23] <simi> So edgeplay can have two meanings then Tats
[21:23] <simi> ?
[21:23] <bella{D}> brb..kids
[21:23] <simi> one to the particpants and one to the public?
[21:23] * simi doesn't think she agrees with this
[21:23] <KimiD> it's starting to be that way for me simi
[21:24] <Tatsumi> i think the meaning is consistant. an activity that pushes your peronsal edges.
[21:24] <KimiD> if "your" is in there then there is a whole bunch of "edge play" things that aren't edgeplay to me
[21:24] <Tatsumi> but if it something that seems to be edge play to others, you can use that term to explain the activities you enjoy in an easy manner
[21:24] <Rorschach> But it's just other people perceive edgeplay differently ... what is edgy to them
[21:24] <simi> Hmmm..
[21:25] <Tatsumi> just MO of course:)
[21:25] <simi> I think we disagree fundamentally on the definition Tats, but we can agree to disagree :)
[21:25] <^Guil> I know folks to whom watersports are edge play...I know others who are into it as a regular part of their play....
[21:25] <Tatsumi> ayli, i wouldn't restrict my behavior in "public" to protect other people. i dont think that's nessesary.
[21:25] <raven{Az}> OK so if you are playing in public, lets say with a single tail, and there is a couple there who thinks this is "edge play" beacuse they consider it to be "Too dangerous"..and you think it's nowhere near edge play..then what?
[21:25] <^Guil> ...it's entirely subjective beyond that defintion...pushing boundaries and trust levels...
[21:25] <Rorschach> Just as we are very regular with blades and needles
[21:26] <simi> Then it's their issue
[21:26] <subdancer> what may be one person's edge may be far beyond another's edge
[21:26] <simi> We've had scenes stopped before.... because it *looked* "too edgy"
[21:26] <Tatsumi> i dont think it's an issue raven unless someone call a moderator of the club. then it's club rules of course:)
[21:26] <simi> Wasn't our perception
[21:26] <raven{Az}> Should the single tail scene be stopped for the onlookers comfort level? or should they jsut move on realizing that some people like different types of play than they do?
[21:26] <simi> the latter raven
[21:27] <Tatsumi> the latter raven
[21:27] <raven{Az}> I think the people should move on..
[21:27] <^Guil> I think they should move on...
[21:27] <simi> We agree on that, Tats! <g>
[21:27] <raven{Az}> true Tats..club rules have to go first..
[21:27] <Tatsumi> :))
[21:27] <^Guil> assuming it was inside the club rules first....
[21:27] <ayli> I wouldn't ask you to Tats..
[21:27] <ayli> sorry, I was getting more tea
[21:27] <Tatsumi> i know ayli:) i'm just saying:)
[21:27] * Flagg thinks one of the common elements of edgeplay is the gray areas between consent and non consent, between saftey and risk.
[21:27] <Tatsumi> np
[21:27] <simi> I agree Flagg.
[21:28] <simi> it's "outside the generally accepted norm"
[21:28] <raven{Az}> gray areas between consent and non-consent?
[21:28] <simi> due to its sketchiness
[21:28] <^Guil> for instance.....a double-edged knife counts as a "deadly weapon" in massachusetts....so many play parties since paddleboro won't allow them....
[21:28] <Tatsumi> i think consentual non constent is 1 of the many edge play activities but i dont think it's all inclusive
[21:28] <Tatsumi> watersports as Guil pointed out is a good example
[21:28] <simi> When we went to AprilBash in NC.... they wouldn't let us do needles, knives, scalpels, no blood, no exposed genitalia...
[21:29] <raven{Az}> I can understand that rule Guil..that sounds like it is for the legal safety of the participants..
[21:29] <simi> we were sorta bummed
[21:29] <Flagg> Right. Someyimes you work on the principle of "Blanket consent"- this person agreed to be here, what i do while this person is under my power may or may not be discussed or negotiated.
[21:29] <simi> But we hung with the rules
[21:29] <Rorschach> That's good to know, Guil ... thanks. <makes note not to include carrying his skull knife to next Fetish Flea>
[21:29] <Tatsumi> i can imagine simi
[21:29] <raven{Az}> ok..I'm with you Flagg...blanket consent..to start with that principal..got it..
[21:29] <simi> Fortunately, Ror has a helluva imagination
[21:30] <Tatsumi> :) simi
[21:30] <simi> and we were the only ones with a cupping set
[21:30] * Tatsumi has pictures from Xmas with the family and circular briuses on her face
[21:30] <Flagg> lol
[21:30] <simi> LoL
[21:30] <Tatsumi> hehehe
[21:31] <Rorschach> There's an example, Mine; cupping isn't within the norm, but I wouldn't call that edgy
[21:31] <simi> No but with these folks it drew quite a crowd.... it was outside their normal practices
[21:31] <simi> But I agree, not edgy
[21:31] <simi> Though I am sure to *someone* it may have been
[21:31] <Tatsumi> yep, i agree. outside the norm but not edge play persay
[21:31] <Rorschach> That's where I disagree with your definition of edgeplay, though
[21:32] * Tatsumi needs to know how to spell persay
[21:32] <bella{D}> per se
[21:32] <simi> per se
[21:32] <simi> LoL bella
[21:32] <Tatsumi> thanks!!!
[21:32] * ayli wants to know what cupping is
[21:32] <Tatsumi> :)
[21:32] * bella{D} grins at BFF
[21:32] <Flagg> per se
[21:32] <simi> Point well taken Sir
[21:32] <simi> You lil BFF you!
[21:32] <Rorschach> <that's why I never use "per se">
[21:33] <bella{D}> in some circles making the 'bottom' cry is edge play
[21:33] <Rorschach> Cupping is an old medical practice that was suppose to have certain healing effects
[21:33] <simi> Or making her scream in that (bad way(
[21:33] <Tatsumi> ayli, suction cups..... nm Ror got it
[21:33] <raven{Az}> and here I thought that was Fun.. LOL
[21:33] <bella{D}> yup yup
[21:33] * ayli is curious now.. :)
[21:33] <bella{D}> i believe that there are two definitions.....
[21:33] <Tatsumi> go for it bella:)
[21:33] <bella{D}> one that edge play is defined within the minds of the participants/watchers
[21:34] <bella{D}> one that deals with the 'pushing' of personal edges
[21:34] <ayli> the first one for.. the watchers.. if it bothers them, shouldn't they leave?
[21:34] <bella{D}> yes...but that will not stop them from considering it edgey
[21:34] <raven{Az}> I think so ayli
[21:34] <Rorschach> Cups with suction induced, the original way with flame. My set uses a suction guy
[21:35] <bella{D}> flame is better....mpo
[21:35] <Rorschach> guy = gun ... what a typo
[21:35] <Tatsumi> good definitions bella:)
[21:35] <bella{D}> thank you Tats
[21:35] <Tatsumi> i think they should ayli
[21:35] <ayli> I was trying to figure out what a suction guy is
[21:35] <ayli> was
[21:35] <Tatsumi> hehehehe
[21:35] <Rorschach> I would like a set that uses flame, bella. But I'm happy with my current set
[21:36] <bella{D}> along those lines, in the first definition - edge play is defined more by consensus of the experience of the individuals/group
[21:36] <Rorschach> Ayli ... ever see Dangerous Liasions?
[21:36] * blackrose{LnR} sneaks a drink from the bar..
[21:36] <bella{D}> Ror - the guy who taught us, uses approproiate sized glasses..including old coca cola glasses
[21:36] <bella{D}> feels weird to know you have coke glasses hanging off of your flesh...lol
[21:36] <Rorschach> LOL
[21:37] <ayli> uhmm.. no.. but I think I have the idea behind the cupping thing.. the flame eats the oxogen.. the cup suctions to the skin..
[21:37] <bella{D}> they just have to have appropriate sized 'mouths' to work
[21:37] <Rorschach> Yes
[21:37] <Rorschach> Anyway, my point was it's not seen that often within BDSM, but not that edgy either
[21:38] <bella{D}> In addition...there is edge play that is purely mental...
[21:38] <Rorschach> To get back on track here
[21:38] <bella{D}> that an 'audience' might not see as anything at all.
[21:38] <bella{D}> but the participants feel is very 'edgy'
[21:38] <bella{D}> edge play does not have to be physical at all.
[21:38] <Tatsumi> so thats the 2nd part of the definition
[21:39] <Tatsumi> right on bella
[21:39] <Rorschach> Very true
[21:39] * Flagg does not like defining an event by the ausdience rather than the intent of the participants. Seems innaccurate,
[21:39] <simi> I would agree
[21:39] <bella{D}> I agree - but it is a definition to be considered in discussion - so that all are thinking along similar lines
[21:39] <Tatsumi> i dont like it Flagg, but it seems right
[21:40] <raven{Az}> So how does one do mental edge play? (Examples please)
[21:40] <Tatsumi> rape play is edgy to some people
[21:40] <Flagg> No- I can't accept it. Edgeplay is in the INTENT, not the reactions of the onlookers.
[21:40] <Tatsumi> age play is edgy to some poeple
[21:40] <simi> Objectification is a horror to some
[21:41] <Tatsumi> humiliation is edgy to some
[21:41] <bella{D}> Flagg, in the 'intent'?
[21:41] <KimiD> i think gun play is mental raven. you never actually get hurt or touched
[21:41] <Tatsumi> most of those have a strong mental aspect to them, not just physical
[21:41] <Tatsumi> well.... i got touched by a gun, but not hurt:))
[21:41] <KimiD> heh
[21:41] <raven{Az}> How so Flagg? (In the intent, not reaction)
[21:41] * Flagg thinks it's edgeplay if it stretches the physical/ emotional/ mental limits of the participants. By this other definition, edgeplay does not exist without an audience.
[21:42] <bella{D}> in a flogging that seems quite 'tame', there might be a strong undercurrent in the talking that changes the 'tone' of the scene
[21:42] <Tatsumi> there are 2 edge play definitions - the one from the outside POV and the one from the internal POV
[21:42] <bella{D}> thank you Tats
[21:42] <Tatsumi> imo
[21:42] <subdancer> without an audience Flagg Sir?
[21:42] <Rorschach> I would agree with you there, Flagg
[21:43] * ayli thinks Flagg is right..
[21:43] <Rorschach> While others might perceive something as edgeplay, it isn't edgeplay to the participants
[21:43] <Flagg> Thaen it would seem there is one definition, and one subjective perception.
[21:43] <Tatsumi> yes Flagg, i would agree with that
[21:43] <bella{D}> Thank you Flagg...that would be correct.
[21:45] <ayli> we're discussing edge play tonight, DivineAmy18, TheWolfe, please feel free to join in the discussion.
[21:45] * ayli looks around at the suddenly quiet channel
[21:45] <TheWolfe> not alot of opinion on edge play but i will listen and watch if no one minds
[21:46] <Tatsumi> np here:)
[21:46] <ayli> don't mind in the least TheWolfe :)
[21:46] <KimiD> :) wolfe
[21:46] <Rorschach> Not at all, Wolfe
[21:46] <TheWolfe> thanks
[21:46] <ayli> So..
[21:46] <Tatsumi> i think we got a definition we can agree on ayli. so no one is saying anything:)
[21:46] * ayli has drawn a compleate blank.. RAVEN
[21:46] * TheWolfe stops gets a drink and finds a nice corner to sit and listen
[21:46] <^Guil> what happens if those trust limits don't get stretched, they get broken? how do you handle the resulting situation?
[21:46] * ayli giggles
[21:46] <ayli> it's scary when we all agree Tats
[21:46] <bella{D}> what would break them?
[21:47] <Tatsumi> thats a tough one Guil
[21:47] <raven{Az}> I have to agree with Flagg...It's edge play (to me) if it stretches/pushes the limits of those involved and has the potential for serious harm...(Be it a mental or physical limit or both)
[21:47] <Tatsumi> a scene gone wrong could bella
[21:47] <raven{Az}> and I don't think it needs an audience to be edge play...
[21:47] <TheWolfe> oops
[21:47] <TheWolfe> i may join in
[21:47] <TheWolfe> edge play as in walking the edge of limits
[21:47] <ayli> I think then, you discuss the situation Guil.. and move on from there
[21:47] <ayli> if at all possible
[21:47] <simi> a very non-edgy scene can go wrong.
[21:47] * ayli giggles.. talk damnit
[21:47] <raven{Az}> if the trust limits gets broken, then discussion must take place and either the issue worked through, or a decision made as to whether or not to continue the relationship..
[21:48] <simi> Does that all of a sudden make it edgy then?
[21:48] <bella{D}> what about a scene going 'wrong' would break trust?
[21:48] <raven{Az}> I think it would depend on whether or not it was an intential breach of "trust"
[21:48] <Tatsumi> Guil, it really depends on how bad the trust was broken and how the situation was handled when that happened
[21:48] <^Guil> all right...
[21:48] <TheWolfe> to me the breaking of the "trust" has many lvls
[21:48] <^Guil> here's a situation:
[21:48] * ayli listens
[21:48] <TheWolfe> i am married and i "know" my wifes limits in play
[21:49] <TheWolfe> occasionally i bend those limits and once or twice broken them
[21:49] <^Guil> The Dom set out to push the sub's trust limits.....deliberately push them very hard in an area that was very edgy mentally/emotionally for the sub...
[21:49] <Tatsumi> bella, if it's a water sports scene that brings back a dsrowning memory but the dom doesn't stop the scene (for various reasons) thaqt could be bad for the reationship
[21:49] <Tatsumi> for example
[21:49] <ayli> wait
[21:49] <ayli> Tats.. could you wait for ajust a sec?
[21:49] <TheWolfe> <- holding
[21:49] <raven{Az}> this is splitting off into three directions...Tats and Guil...hold up a second..Wolfe shows as speaking first...
[21:49] <raven{Az}> go ahead WOlfe
[21:50] <raven{Az}> oops..sorry..Guil even..
[21:50] <raven{Az}> thanks gf.. :)
[21:50] <TheWolfe> thanks ..
[21:50] <subdancer> it could also be good for the relationship Tatsumi
[21:50] <Tatsumi> if it turns out the dom didn't know and takes care of the sub as she needs (which is a personal thing) then the relationshiop can probably be salvaged
[21:50] <Tatsumi> k
[21:50] <TheWolfe> my relationship has both suffered and prospered for it
[21:51] <TheWolfe> the bending of the limits and occasional breaking has to be "felt"
[21:51] <TheWolfe> i love my wife .. for a Dom to be new with a sub and just break is one thing
[21:51] <TheWolfe> but a couple who have a feeling for the other .. you need to walk the edge ALWAYS or all else is stale
[21:51] <raven{Az}> OK..lets set a situation that is fairly straight out there..a sub, has a hard limit of knife play. Her dom really likes knife play soi she agrees to submit to "light" knife play, with the set condition of no blood being drawn..the dom accidentally draws blood...is this a breech of trust? or a boo boo?
[21:52] <Tatsumi> depends on the dom raven
[21:52] <raven{Az}> how so Tats?
[21:52] <bella{D}> and how it happened.
[21:52] <Tatsumi> i have no way of knowing
[21:52] <TheWolfe> 1st time .. a boo boo most likely
[21:52] <Rorschach> The key word there is accidently, I believe
[21:52] <TheWolfe> the Dom's responce to his boo boo will set the answer
[21:52] <Tatsumi> i as a non participant have no way of knowing if it was intentional pushing or accidental
[21:52] <raven{Az}> I can see how it would work either way Wolfe...but why does one have to walk the edge all the time? Isn't that just seeking a thrill?
[21:53] <Tatsumi> either way i would think they should stay away from knives for a while
[21:53] <Tatsumi> either he cant be truszted to keep his word or he cant be trusted to keep his knife steady
[21:53] <raven{Az}> OK..lets take the situation a bit further..the dominant sees that he drew blood..but it isn't alot..he immediately stops all play and goes into clean up etc...
[21:53] <raven{Az}> my reaction..boo boo..
[21:53] <Tatsumi> if she's that freaked by the blood, it's an activity they should stay away from
[21:53] <Tatsumi> imo
[21:53] <Tatsumi> yes, i would agree raven
[21:54] <Tatsumi> if he stops to let her know and clean up, i wouldn't see that as a breach
[21:54] * Flagg thinks this comes back to retroactive consent.
[21:54] <raven{Az}> now..were the dom to shrug..and keep going would be different beacuse he had agreed to the limit of no blood..by not adhering to the agreement he made, it becomes an issue of whether or not the sub can trust him to keep his word
[21:54] <TheWolfe> <raven> in away it is seeking a thrill .. and not .. if you remain safely behind a limit wall thing become stagnant ..
[21:54] <raven{Az}> yes Tats..I agree.. :)
[21:54] <Tatsumi> but i still wouldn't recommend they continue riught away unless it has changed her perception of the activity
[21:55] <raven{Az}> Third possibility..he stops..tells the sub he drew a bit of blood, and asks if she wants to stop...this gives him the consent for further "action"..and shows that he wants to keep to the agreement as made...
[21:55] <raven{Az}> yes Tats..I agree with taht too.. :)
[21:55] <Tatsumi> yep:)
[21:55] <TheWolfe> < raven > KUDO's great solution !
[21:55] <KimiD> i think i'd have more respect for that last one raven
[21:55] * Soulhuntre is working, but wanted to watch
[21:55] <raven{Az}> me too KimiD.. :)))
[21:55] <Tatsumi> flagg, how is that a content issue?
[21:55] <raven{Az}> I'm not sure about that Wolfe...
[21:56] <Tatsumi> consent even
[21:56] <raven{Az}> if a relationship becomes nothing more than constantly seeking thrills..why be in a relationship at all? WOuldn't being with the same perosn then become stagnant irregardless of edge play?
[21:56] <Tatsumi> Flagg?
[21:57] <Tatsumi> that would be true if that was what the relationship was about, but i think you could have a good relationship with a trill seeking sex life or s/m lifestyle
[21:57] <Tatsumi> maybe
[21:57] <Tatsumi> i'm not sure, but i think it would work
[21:58] <Tatsumi> depends on how you see your recreation
[21:58] <Flagg> As usual, consent is fluid. If the accident is overlooked, or accepted as jsut that, a one time allowance (consent) has been given , or furtehr consent is possible. If not, it can be a relationship ended, and the accusations of "abuse" or possible. It's interpersonal relationship dynamics- thus fluid.
[21:58] <Tatsumi> if it's all for fun to begin with, then raising the stakes in a rollar coaster way could be interesting
[21:58] <Flagg> Sorry, tats - I type horribly.
[21:58] <TheWolfe> oh it does .. but it is a different stagnant
[21:58] <Flagg> And SLOWLY.
[21:58] <TheWolfe> i am married 10 years
[21:58] <Tatsumi> i totally understand Flagg
[21:59] <TheWolfe> my wife and i are comfy sitting in the liveing room doing normal common stuff nightly
[21:59] <Tatsumi> i can see how you would consider that a constent issue, but that's more about trust for me
[21:59] <raven{Az}> I agree with that Flagg..
[21:59] <Tatsumi> course, i'm on this side of the leash so to speak:)
[21:59] <raven{Az}> AHhhhhhhhhhhhhh ok Wolfe..now it makes sense :))
[21:59] <TheWolfe> but when we d/s we walk the edge it is what keeps us looimg forward
[21:59] <raven{Az}> What is edge play to you Wolfe?
[21:59] * Flagg thinks he and tats are agreeing, despite subtle differences in definition.
[21:59] <Tatsumi> yeppers Flagg:)
[22:00] <TheWolfe> your definition is what i am baseing this on
[22:00] * Soulhuntre drools on conker
[22:00] <TheWolfe> the thin line between what is and what isn't allowed
[22:01] <Tatsumi> hmm... thats not my definition, but ok:)
[22:01] * ayli thought we settled on a definition?
[22:02] <Tatsumi> i settled on bella'
[22:02] <ayli> well.. we all agreed to Flaggs.. but.. I mean.. gads I'm lost again.. sorry
[22:02] <Tatsumi> i settled on bella's definition, but i'm contrary that way:)
[22:02] <Tatsumi> sorry... i'll be good
[22:02] * ayli giggles
[22:02] <ayli> oh don't Tats
[22:02] * subdancer thinks she may be thinking too M/s tonight
[22:02] <Flagg> uh, yeah. That's you, tats. "Good".
[22:03] * ayli giggles
[22:03] <Tatsumi> hehehe, i've been learning Flagg:) just ask Daddy!
[22:03] <bella{D}> woohoo!...Tats is in my camp....*smiles*
[22:03] <Tatsumi> well, not being able to orgasm makes you do just about anything
[22:04] <Tatsumi> some people are controlled by food... some by money.... me? orgasms:)
[22:04] * bella{D} shudders
[22:04] <KimiD> lol
[22:04] * ayli giggles
[22:04] * Flagg keeps that in mind.
[22:04] <Tatsumi> hehehehehehehehhehehehehehe
[22:04] <ayli> run tats
[22:04] <Tatsumi> oh no ayli... i'm being good:)
[22:04] * Flagg checks his "Access Denied" bookmark.
[22:05] <Tatsumi> putting myself in the path of whatever destruction comes my way IS good, isn't it?
[22:05] <Flagg> yep. That's good.
[22:06] <KimiD> bye wolfe
[22:06] <Matt25> hi ayli
[22:06] <bella{D}> Throbbingflaggy?????
[22:06] *** TheWolfe (me@=C5548-547-00-375.c3-0.smt-ubr1.atw-smt.pa.cable.rcn.com) has left #Leather_And_Roses
[22:06] <raven{Az}> Does anyone wish to add anything else?
[22:07] <raven{Az}> (End of discussion for logging purposes)