My Thanks to Soul Of Darkness for continuing the discussion when I
had to leave. Thanks!! <raven>
<raven{Az}> let's start with this: How important is
consent to a bdsm relationship?
<SoulOfDarkness> yes somomma?
<raven{Az}> ok somomma..ask away :)
<somomma> where is the website?
<raven{Az}> http://www.leatherNroses.com
<somomma> thank you..sorry for interrupting
<raven{Az}> no problemo at all somomma :)
<SoulOfDarkness> consent is the cornerstone of bdsm.... it's
what differentiates much of what we do from abuse
<raven{Az}> How does it do that?
<Blood|ord> *singing*
<SoulOfDarkness> there is a high degree of similarity between
abusive relationships and d/s relationships, in the control issues,
for example, or the coercion and manipulation of the will of the submissive
partner
<{sonja}JP> same way consent differentiates sex from
rape?
<SoulOfDarkness> without consent, it would be abuse
<AAhhzz> By the convention of consent both parties
are stating that they wish to preform these acts with each other.......without
consent your just abusing someone........
<somomma> but i have moments...hmm..well, when i am
not sure i have the capacity to give consent..no..sense it..that make
sense?
<SoulOfDarkness> you mean that at times you cannot consent because
of the dominance of your partner?
<SoulOfDarkness> I am assuming you are submissive somomma, if
that's incorrect I'm sorry
<somomma> well yes...because i have been taken to a
place within...kinda floating there
<somomma> yes Eric..i am
<raven{Az}> yes..that makes sense somomma..
<SoulOfDarkness> well, my answer would be that consent is not
a second by second thing
<raven{Az}> so...my next question then is...when is
consent given? at time the relationship begins, prior to any scene,
or a bit of both ?
<somomma> so i depend on the Dom/me sort of....know
what i mean?
<SoulOfDarkness> <grins> yep
<{sonja}JP> that depends on the people involved
* AAhhzz settles back and watches while his cable modem
server is having a stroke
<{sonja}JP> lol
<raven{Az}> yup sommoma :)
<somomma> i think it is given always...after communicating..knowing
each other..limits
<raven{Az}> For me, it's mostly blanket consent given
at time of accepting a collar..with the known possibility that other
issues of consent may come up, such as wanting to use a new implement
that I am afraid of..
* AAhhzz nods...1Yeah when you kind of floating somomma
you have to trust in them.........LOL....its a bit late to tell them
you dont want to do this.,........
<somomma> smiling.....nodding lots
<SoulOfDarkness> about long term consent .... there are plenty
of situations out there where people give consent to the unkown that
we don't consider wrong or abusive
<raven{Az}> darn..so you mean I can't withdraw consent
when I'm in sub space?
<raven{Az}> true as well Eric.. :)
<somomma> grins...not liking to not have sub space
<raven{Az}> it's different to undergo painplay without
sub space..but it can be quite enjoyable as well..
<SoulOfDarkness> the military, for example, you join and consent
to what the military wants for a period of years, and you are not allowed
to withdraw that consent
<raven{Az}> true Eric
<AAhhzz> I would think a bit of both raven.......like
For example......A couple has a relationship......the submissive has
given a blanket consent.....but that does not mena that communication
has to cease on the subject of consent.....I know I would certainly
talk about a new thing before trying it out......
<somomma> maybe i should be in the military....playful
smile
<SoulOfDarkness> in my relationship Kristy cannot simply withdraw
her consent to the relationship, I have to concur
<SoulOfDarkness> lol@somomma, I was for 11 years
<Blood|ord> *restless*
*** raven{Az} is now known as ravn^Ron
<ravn^Ron> Ron is having trouble with @home.com freezing..so
he's coming to sit by my computer and I will type for both of us..
<somomma> i like the knowledge of knowing i can depend
on one to 'know' my limits and draw them to discussion
<ravn^Ron> I can understand that Eric..
* {sonja}JP has a similar consent agreement.........i
consented to ........... His decisions?
* {sonja}JP is not sure how to word that
<ravn^Ron> Is it possible to give consent too son?
<ravn^Ron> soon even
<SoulOfDarkness> of course it is.... giving consent to the unknown
is okay, as long as the nature of the person you are granting that consent
to is known
<SoulOfDarkness> and you can't know the nature of the person
after 2 hours in a chat room
<ravn^Ron> why?
<somomma> whenever i did i regretted it
<ravn^Ron> true :)
<ravn^Ron> raven: Ron, isn't communicating about something
different from asking for consent?
<SoulOfDarkness> example.... Kristy consented (accepted my terms
for a relationship) after roughly 3 weeks of talking/knowing each other.
She didn't know everythign I might want of her, but she did know what
my character was
* {sonja}JP thinks it is that communication that makes
blanket consent possible.........
<ravn^Ron> Ron: yeah, communication is a bit different,
but if I learned that something were a hard limit for my partner, I
wouldn't go ahead with it...
<somomma> agrees with sonja
<ravn^Ron> wouldn't limits hard/soft be discussed before
consent for the relationship were given?
<ravn^Ron> Ron: new things always come up..
<SoulOfDarkness> some of them were raven, but not all
<{sonja}JP> knowing that someone will discuss things
with you - and cares about you enough to take your feelings into consideration
- is what makes blanket consent possible
<ravn^Ron> I can understand that Eric..
<SoulOfDarkness> and many new things have come up in the 3 years
since then
<ravn^Ron> raven: good point Ron
<ravn^Ron> Ron: good point sonja
<ravn^Ron> Ron turnsinto a parrot and sits beside the
raven..."nevermore?"
<ravn^Ron> ok..that was dumb..
<ravn^Ron> sorry
<ravn^Ron> I can agree with that sonja..
<somomma> when i am communicated to i feel safe and
leads to consent
<morrigan> not god
<morrigan> not good even
<{sonja}JP> Master and i tried to discuss everything
way back when - then discovered the list was WAAAAAAAAAAY too long and
yet not complete
<morrigan> oops sorry.
<ravn^Ron> however, in a relationship where the sub
sets no limits on play except those that are a match for their dom/me...could
hard limits be discovered later?
<SoulOfDarkness> okay.... but suppose we are talking consent
to an absolute relationship? In an absolute (or complete) relationship
I am not even obligated to communicate if I don't want to
<ravn^Ron> makes sense sonja
<ravn^Ron> I understand that somomma..
<ravn^Ron> Ron: you might not be obligated Eric, but
it certainly wouldn't be as fulfilling of a relationship for either
of you..
<SoulOfDarkness> why?
<{sonja}JP> not obligated in the sense of definitions.........but
why would you want to do something without knowing what you were doing,
in all senses of Knowing?
<SoulOfDarkness> it might perfectly fulfilling to me
<ravn^Ron> raven: I think that would depend on the
needs of the people involved Eric..I for one, need communication for
any relationship to exist..
<ravn^Ron> Ron: because there wouldn't be the emotional
bond..
<somomma> i'd like to raise the point that often male
submissives are deemed to be able to withstand more....never understood
that...so they are communicated to less
<SoulOfDarkness> why Ron?
<ravn^Ron> Ron: emotional/mental stimulation
<ravn^Ron> sorry..my bad..
<ravn^Ron> Ron: True we are talking about you Eric,
I just know that *I* need it for my own fulfillment/enjoyment..to be
able to talk/discuss/learn and such
<SoulOfDarkness> <laughs> somomma, the couple of male submissives
I have scened with were not nearly as heavy a masochists as my normal
female partners, I don't take that for granted
* Eric^ winks at Ron.... I'm playing devil's advocate,
challenging accepted notions, pay no attention if you don't want to
<somomma> nods and smiles to Eric
<ravn^Ron> possibly somomma that exists because of
the general consensus that men (in general now!) don't communicate about
their emotions/thoughts as openly and frequently as women do..
* {sonja}JP has never thought of that before somomma -
but it makes a lot of sense
<ravn^Ron> raven giggles..
<ravn^Ron> Ron: I saw your horns Eric..you've always
been a horny little bugger anyway..LOL <JOKE>
<somomma> smiles...well a few of us males need that
communication..i know i do
<ravn^Ron> raven wonders if she should move out of
the way so when Eric dives for Ron's throat, she doesn't get trampled
in the process
<ravn^Ron> Ron nods to somomma
<ravn^Ron> true somomma..and personally, I like the
ones that do :)
<{sonja}JP> room full of HNGs????
<ravn^Ron> raven: OK..as to why communication would
be neccessary to bring about fulfillment..
<ravn^Ron> first: if one doesn't communicate their
desires in regards to the sub's behavior/tasks/responsibilities..the
sub can't fulfill them..thus, the dom will not be happy in the relationship..
<debunny> hello A/all
<EZRiser> needs understood .. or at least expressed
.. aint that the best thing about communication
* debunny curtseys in the doorway
<ravn^Ron> so some level of communication is neccssary,
in even the most strictly service based relationship..
<{sonja}JP> HI sub
<ravn^Ron> Hi dancer!! :)
<{sonja}JP> hi deb
<ravn^Ron> Hi debunny
<{sonja}JP> subdancer even
<EZRiser> evenin' subdancer .. debunny
<SoulOfDarkness> lol@Ron
<SoulOfDarkness> hi subdancer and debunny
<ravn^Ron> Ron: communication is neccessary because
people do change over time..new needs, new desires, new limits might
arise..
<fairys_ki> hello subdancer and debunny
<ravn^Ron> Ron: for example something that was not
a limit before, becomes one, and something that was, isn't a limit anymore..
<ravn^Ron> raven thinks of canes and body peircings..
<ravn^Ron> yeah..that I can udnerstand.. LOL
<SoulOfDarkness> Ron: what if the relationship is absolute in
nature, and those changes are of no concern to the owner?
<somomma> yes, i hate chasing to try and please...i
prefer to know the expectations
<subdancer> sorry distracted hello A/all
<ravn^Ron> raven: wouldn't they be of concern to the
owner in that if the changes are not at least expressed, the slave can't
serve to their full potential?
<ravn^Ron> I agree somomma
<SoulOfDarkness> to me raven, yes. But I'm speaking hypothetically
* debunny waves from the prairies,,, can a cc-cc-cold
canadian bunny hop in?
<ravn^Ron> Ron: EVen if it is absolute in nature, I
would think that the master/mistress would wantto keep an eye on their
slave's mental/emotional well being..if for nothing else but to keep
their property in good service working order..
<SoulOfDarkness> then it seems to me, in that scenario, the
key is the original consent, not the communication process
<ravn^Ron> I know Eric..was just giving my thoughts
is all..not upset or nuffin :)
<somomma> hello debunny and subdancer
<ravn^Ron> In the issue of play limits, yes..it could
go back to original consent..but is anything ever that simple when it
comes to relationships between people?
<ravn^Ron> Ron: yes debunny, welcome, come in and sit
down...
<SoulOfDarkness> I'm not talking about specifically play limits
<SoulOfDarkness> play limits are the easiest to define, but
s/m play is not a d/s relationship
<ravn^Ron> OK..then I'm confuzzled..(not surprising)..how
can it all go back to the original consent?
<somomma> how is D/s not sm?
<ravn^Ron> I don't see how giving blanket consent automatically
means that the sub/slave will not require any input from time to time,
or that once the dom has the consent in hand, he/she would not want
to check on how the slave's mental/emotional well being is doing..
<SoulOfDarkness> dominance and submission is distinct from sado-masochism.
They can be interrelated, but are not the same thing
<ravn^Ron> d/s is a relationship based on power exchange..s/m
is the giving and receiving of pain for physical pleasure..
<ravn^Ron> a power exchange can exist without pain
play..
<somomma> but when i consent to s/m is that not power
exchanging?
<SoulOfDarkness> it can be somomma, but isn't necessarily
<ravn^Ron> in some people's mind it is bottoming, not
participating in a d/s relationship..
<SoulOfDarkness> it depends upon the scenario
<ravn^Ron> in other people's minds..it is engaging
in a complete power exchange..
<ravn^Ron> gotta love diversity...since you can't shoot
it :)
<ravn^Ron> I'm sorry all..but I am exhausted..
<ravn^Ron> Eric, will you take the discussion from
here for me please?
<SoulOfDarkness> sure thing raven
<ravn^Ron> thanks Eric..I appreciate it :)
<SoulOfDarkness> okay.... anyhow, if you have constant communication,
do you have to have prior consent at all?
<somomma> yes..there can be miscommunication
* {sonja}JP thinks often that initial consent sort of
just flows between the right people........not always formalized words
<SoulOfDarkness> so, if you miscommunicate, think one thing,
he thinks another, he crosses a limit, it's okay cause you consented
two years ago to be his property?
<somomma> smiles...hmm...thinking on that
<{sonja}JP> well - yeah - its "ok" but it may still
cause hte end of the relationship
<somomma> but can't a submissives needs change as we
said, go back and forth?
<SoulOfDarkness> yes, but, if the submissive's needs change,
is there a mechanism to change the consent?
<somomma> thinking by the time i figure it out to consent
i am in subspace....grin
<SoulOfDarkness> or what if the dominant's needs change... does
he/she just have to not do anything about it cause the sub never consented
to the new need?
<SoulOfDarkness> lol@somomma
* {sonja}JP wonders if that is truly possible
<somomma> good points Eric...i think then a submissive
needs to communicate often
<{sonja}JP> can your needs change so drastically that
a change/adjustment to consent would be necessary - or would it be something
that you simply didnt communicate properly to begin with?
<SoulOfDarkness> yes.... two years into the relationship Kristy
and I added polyamory... this required, in my mind, a formal change
in consent. It was a drastic change
<somomma> sometimes the desire to please causes me
to go with the flow in trust....knowing i am protected...to push...if
that makes sense...to please
<SoulOfDarkness> so, you trust the character of your dominant
partner, and trust them to keep you safe, and go past limits you might
otherwise not agree to?
<{sonja}JP> but - was this something that you never
knew about yourself?
<{sonja}JP> or something you were knew but supressed?
<somomma> yes i do Eric...that to me is the point...
<SoulOfDarkness> sonja, it was something I knew and had decided
to ... turn off. And it was not just my choice either
<somomma> looking down..well...i depend on that...
* {sonja}JP understands that quite well
<SoulOfDarkness> so, somomma, you are saying that you actually
are granting consent to the character of the dominant?
* {sonja}JP thinks that makes a lot of sense right there.........
<{sonja}JP> consent to the character of the dom
* {sonja}JP likes that
<somomma> yes i am...character meaning i know them
to protect me....they realize my limits...and well..
<somomma> so i really submit based on that....think
of it the other way..if i was constantly in doubt...i would think, not
feel..doubt not trust...so i depend on them
<SoulOfDarkness> character meaning that they are honorable,
trustworthy people? They may do things you don't like, but they ain't
gonna actually chop something off and feed it to the fish
<{sonja}JP> actually - i was thinking character in
that their character matched what you wanted........
<somomma> nodding....yes...like that Eric....pushing
me to where they choose for me and them...for us together....wondering
if this makes sense
<SoulOfDarkness> I get what you are saying somomma
<{sonja}JP> yanno - there may actually be someone looking
for someone to "chop something off" in a manner of speaking
<somomma> *cannot visualize being with a dominant i
do not trust....that leads to abuse
<SoulOfDarkness> okay, so we have dealt with long term relationship
type consent, and I seem to be hearing that you consent based on the
character of the dominant, not the actual expressed limits?
<{sonja}JP> someone YOU trust - doesnt necessarily
mean they are "trustworthy"
<{sonja}JP> not disparaging you - somomma - just saying
that it is an individual thing
<somomma> true...character leads to more communication
<SoulOfDarkness> so, different angle
<somomma> then the issue becomes one of what trust
does it take to consent
<SoulOfDarkness> how do you handle consent in a casual scene
encounter? Let's say you are at a bdsm auction, and you are auctioned
off to someone you don't know well?
<SoulOfDarkness> how is consent handled, can it change minute
to minute?
<SoulOfDarkness> night fairys
<subdancer> i serve the person as Sir commands
<somomma> i would not go to an auction alone...
<SoulOfDarkness> so, in your scenario dancer, consent is handled
through your dominant?
* {sonja}JP would probably not go to an auction if there
were people bidding that i didnt know
<subdancer> yes
<SoulOfDarkness> curiousity... why not? it's public. There are
dungeon monitors. it's unlikely you will actually be hurt
<{sonja}JP> just.........not.....my thing i guess
<subdancer> if i went to one Sir would be present i
think
<{sonja}JP> and i work differently on the scening thing
<SoulOfDarkness> okay... but what I'm trying to get at is...
how do you handle consent in a casual scene with someone you have just
met.... not for you specifically, but in general
* {sonja}JP needs to be aroused and then ENJOYS the pain.............cant
usually be aroused by someone i dont know :)
* Eric^ beats his head on the wall :)
<subdancer> that is hard i guess, i do not do casual
scenes as a norm
<{sonja}JP> sorry - i was typing at the same time you
were
<SoulOfDarkness> generally speaking I don't either.... I scene
with some regular partners, on a "friendly" basis, but it's not casual,
like a pick up type thing
* {sonja}JP thinks short term casual scenes should be
very specific and consent should be given to each specific.........
<SoulOfDarkness> On occassion I do bdsm auctions, and have ended
up topping someone I met for the first time that night
<{sonja}JP> but that is me...
<subdancer> as i handled it in the past well, i met
with whoever W/we talked if i played He had full control
<SoulOfDarkness> I tried to do it that way sonja, and the bottom
in question said... "I'm a heavy masochist, and I want you to take control"...
so I did
<{sonja}JP> which is consent in itself
<SoulOfDarkness> this presented a dilemna though, because I
didn't know her well enough to be certain of what her reactions might
be
<{sonja}JP> with a heavy masochist........ok.........take
someone like me - and i would want to pick and chose among your bag
of goodies........
<SoulOfDarkness> lol@sonja
* {sonja}JP would throw away ALL the leeches..........
* {sonja}JP giggles
<SoulOfDarkness> I don't normally do that... normally my idea
of consent is... here's what I have in my bag, yes or no
<{sonja}JP> ruh roh - server split
<SoulOfDarkness> yep
<subdancer> <--looks at floor wide eyed-pick and
choose among the goodies, what a concept
* {sonja}JP understands that - which is why i prolly wouldnt
play :) but i would LOVE to peek
<SoulOfDarkness> but, dancer, that is the normal way it is done
between tops and bottoms
<{sonja}JP> Eric is a bit further along the sadist
line than i am comfortable with
<SoulOfDarkness> the bottom states limits, the top agrees....
they negotiate how the scene will go
<SoulOfDarkness> just a bit sonja?
<subdancer> in all cases in my life He lined the goodies
up and He picked and choose
<{sonja}JP> hi JakBird
<{sonja}JP> just a bit Eric
<SoulOfDarkness> hi JakBird, we are having a discussion night,
the topic is consent in bdsm
<SoulOfDarkness> I'm your friendly facilitator, feel free to
join in at any time
<JakBird> so i see
<{sonja}JP> that is how it works with me and my Master
subdancer.......i was referring to how it would work with me and a "play"
partner (really hates that term)
<SoulOfDarkness> how about scene partner? I prefer that personally
<{sonja}JP> 's better
* {sonja}JP wasnt thinking
<subdancer> Eric^- if i choose to walk into a situation
with a Dom, it is full consent, i guess that is where i stand
<JakBird> consent has a place at the start of a relationship,
but i feel it should be a goal to make consent irrelevant as it progresses
<SoulOfDarkness> hmmmmm, we had pretty well reached the consensus
earlier that consent in a long term relationship was more about trusting
the character of your partner, rather than consent to specific limits
<SoulOfDarkness> I'm trying to get sonja to consent to my leeches
and needles now
<SoulOfDarkness> :)
* {sonja}JP backs away slowly
<{sonja}JP> keeping her eyes on Erics hands and that
bag
<SoulOfDarkness> so, JakBird, how about a one time scene with
someone, how does consent work?
<subdancer> in my situations i had no say over what
is done, leeches and needles i could whine all i want TOO BAD
<JakBird> no idea, i only deal in the long term aspects
<SoulOfDarkness> okay, let's take your statement .... it should
be a goal to make consent irrelevant as it progresses .... care to explain
that?
<JakBird> my interest is solely in m-s type relationship,
one where consent fades away and isn't an issue
<SoulOfDarkness> anyhow..... how does "consent fade away"?
<subdancer> JakBird-a blanket consent from the first
second the collar goes on
<JakBird> behavior modification, trust, conditioning,
habit
<JakBird> no subdancer, those are only words, it has
to become a mindset, the inability to envision anything but acceptance
* Eric^ is listening
<JakBird> that does not happen in an instant
<subdancer> for some that mindset comes that fast
<{sonja}JP> again - it depends on the people involved.
<JakBird> oh i have no doubt the devotion is there,
but i refer to something else
<{sonja}JP> sometimes it happens that fast - but they
really dont realize it
<JakBird> the mind cannot travel down the pah of doubt,
those roads become closed
<subdancer> please explain that something else?
* Eric^ prefers control to such a degree that you can
doubt, dislike, etc all you want, you cannot change your will from the
path I set in front of you.... but that is way off the topic of consent
<JakBird> obedience becomes an unbreakable habit, like
breathing
<subdancer> the path of doubt come with the idea of
a choice
<JakBird> there is no way to not follow
<SoulOfDarkness> do you explain these things up front Jak? do
you expect consent to following this path? And what if at some later
point the submissive doesn't consent to that path anymore
<JakBird> of course, i have ethics
<subdancer> if you do not have a choice there is little
doubt
<JakBird> and if it doesnt happen, then it is not meant
to be
<SoulOfDarkness> so, you are saying that if she withdrew her
consent you would let her go?
<SoulOfDarkness> release her?
<JakBird> of course
<SoulOfDarkness> mmmm
<subdancer> consent is the mindset for some
<JakBird> but then its a failure, because a condition
occurred which should not
<SoulOfDarkness> what condition?
<JakBird> the ability to withdraw consent is implicit
failure if the goal is to remove that choice in the first place
<SoulOfDarkness> wouldn't it boring to have a scenario where
there was no more challenge to overcome? where you didn't have to enforce
your will on your partner?
<JakBird> lol, i see it quite differently
* Eric^ is curious really.... I like the challenge of
dominating... of coercing my partner to do my will
<JakBird> for one, there is no"enforcing", it becomes
a de facto backdrop to the relationship
<SoulOfDarkness> other thoughts on consent?
<subdancer> so Eric Sir does this mean You enjoy a
brat slave?
<SoulOfDarkness> no.... not at all
* {sonja}JP just wants the previous thought to go down
in history
<SoulOfDarkness> which thought sonja?
<{sonja}JP> consent to a character - not an event........i
really like that
<SoulOfDarkness> brat slave implies disobedience to achieve
a certain response from the dominant
<{sonja}JP> Eric enjoys the struggle over a strong
mature mind
<subdancer> Eric Sir, what i mean is a slave who has
a will to say nope every so often
<SoulOfDarkness> I like the scenario of coercing you to do something
you do not want to do because I want you to do it
* {sonja}JP thinks that is why he keeps talking to me..............LOL
- just kidding :)
<SoulOfDarkness> I prefer my sub/slave/servant/property/girl
(choose the word you like) have a mind of her own, a strong will and
need to be bent to my will
<SoulOfDarkness> lol@sonja
* Eric^ declares the formal discussion of consent in bdsm
over with.... We learned that most of us consider consent to character
to be of prime importance