SSC vs. RACK

Part One: Sunday December 3, 2000
[21:07] * raven{Az} says Hello and welcome to #Leather_and_Roses' weekly discussions on BDSM topics. I hope you enjoy it. The following rules apply for all present.
[21:07] <raven{Az}> You must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave. Legal age being 18 or 21 depending on your location, if you are thought to be younger, you will be asked your age. If you are found to be younger, you will be kick/banned.
[21:07] <raven{Az}> No trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night Trolling is the advertising of yourself, wants/needs/desires, and/or personal ads. If you troll, you will be kick/banned.
[21:07] <raven{Az}> Harassment will not be tolerated either. If you harass another person, and an op is made aware of it, you will be asked to stop. If you continue, you will be kick/banned. This discussion is for enjoyment and information, not harassment.
[21:07] <raven{Az}> Please try to stay on topic and discuss one thread at a time. If the discussion gets overly fast (or overly emotional, or someone requests a break), I will call a break. This is so everyone can take a few moments to relax, and get their thoughts in order before continuing.
[21:08] <raven{Az}> If it erodes into a semantics argument, and those who are disagreeing can not agree to disagree, I will close the discussion for the night. We are here to discuss and learn from one anther, not fight with one another.
[21:08] <raven{Az}> Please be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. Flaming is insulting the person who states an idea. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[21:08] <raven{Az}> All statements are publishable on the web site,. I will change nicks if it is requested via email to webmaster@leathernroses.com. If I receive no requests, logs will be published in full on the web site and the lack of a request will be taken as consent to publish your statements.
[21:08] <raven{Az}> I hope you enjoy tonight's discussion, the topic is SSC vc. RACK
[21:08] <raven{Az}> So..let's start with this..what is SSC?
[21:09] <ayli> a really obscure, fucked up, idea?
[21:09] <ayli> uhh.. Safe, Sane, Consenual
[21:09] <{sonja}JP> stupid silly, and crazy?
[21:09] <Mordax> Is it a new IPO on NASDAQ?
[21:09] <Eric^> Safe, Sane, Consensual.... a term coined in trying to explain the difference between abuse and consensual s/m
[21:09] * {sonja}JP hands Eric a cookie :)
[21:09] * ayli wishs she knew what an IPO was
[21:09] <raven{Az}> LOL ayli
[21:10] <raven{Az}> OK...safe sane and consensual...how does that apply to BDSM?
[21:10] * Eric^ has no idea since I am none of the above
[21:10] <ayli> well.. do everything safely- from YOUR point of view Sanely - also from your point of view.. and well.. consent is easy
[21:11] * ayli refrains from cracking a joke
[21:11] <Eric^> okay... here's the problem... who gets to define SSC? what if you think you are safe, and I think you aren't?
[21:11] <Mordax> then is not consensual...
[21:11] <ayli> uhmm.. screw you.. it only matters what I and the person I'm playing/in a relationship with
[21:11] <raven{Az}> Then we would get into the argument that many people face...someone pushing their view as the only way to do BDSM onto others...
[21:12] <ayli> as long as I'm not forcing my beliefs on you.. it's not your problem
[21:12] <raven{Az}> SSC needs to be defined, like everything else in BDSM, by the participants...
[21:12] <Eric^> Mordax... I didn't mean between a couple, I meant someone from the outside
[21:12] <raven{Az}> Do You think SSC get's used in the wrong way?
[21:13] <ayli> yes.. to many people use it to define other people's relationships..
[21:13] <elle{LDS}> if that is the case, then why is there even a need for the term "SSC"? because it doesn't mean "safe sane and consentual" when you leave it up to the individual to decide what it means.
[21:13] <Mordax> As in any relationship, the 'ground rules' are defined by the parties involved in the relationship, not by any outsider
[21:13] <Kristy> All the time.
[21:13] <ayli> why not elle?
[21:13] <elle{LDS}> at that point it can become more or less...depending on the person. thus, the term becomes useless.
[21:13] <Eric^> Mordax... the rules are defined by outsiders all the time.. the govt gets to define the definition of marriage, abuse and divorce, for starters. 
[21:14] <raven{Az}> That's basically why alot of people do not like the term SSC anymore elle..beacuse basically there is no way of defining what is safe and sane that will encompass all the viable variances that are found in bdsm..
[21:14] <raven{Az}> my understanding is ssc was created as a way of explaining what we do to the general public, and in some ways to make it more palatable, thus more acceptable....
[21:15] <raven{Az}> True Eric..
[21:15] <Eric^> that's pretty much correct raven, based on what I understand as well
[21:15] <raven{Az}> To those who push SSC as the ONLY way to do BDSM..a sub who does not have a safeword is being abused...what do you think?
[21:15] * ayli giggles
[21:15] <Eric^> Kristy.... I've been abusing you for 3 years now!
[21:16] <raven{Az}> LOL Eric
[21:16] <Kristy> funny I'm not feeling too abused
[21:16] * elle{LDS} is confused...why does pushing SSC make a sub with a safeword an abused sub?
[21:16] <ayli> we need to call an abuse counseler for all of you twisted folks
[21:16] <ayli> without a safeword elle
[21:16] <elle{LDS}> sorry...
[21:16] <{sonja}JP> without a safeword
[21:16] <elle{LDS}> without a safeword is what i meant
[21:16] <Eric^> because safewords are considered, by many, to be a requisite to being ssc
[21:16] <raven{Az}> because to many who really push SSC elle, the sub must have to cosnsent to any order at the time it is given, and must have the ability at any time to say NO to the dom for it to be submission..
[21:16] <ayli> because.. basically.. by .. the.. "rules" of being ssc.. a safeword is Neccasary
[21:17] <raven{Az}> yes...by the rules of SSC a safeword is neccessary..and those who do not have one are considered abused or "extreme" and thus not part of the "real" bdsm..
[21:17] <ayli> if you don't have one.. your not being safe.. and certainly not sane.. because you if you can't tell your dom to stop imediatly.. theres something wrong with you
[21:18] <Eric^> never mind the fact that there are times when Kristy could not safeword even if I was about to kill her
[21:18] <ayli> honestly.. if you have her tied up Eric.. you could do any damn thing you wanted.. even if she Did safeword
[21:18] <Eric^> and never mind that if you are in locked cuffs that are chained to the bed what bit of good is using your safeword going to do if I'm psycho barrell boy?
[21:18] <raven{Az}> SSC conveniently forgets that fact ayli..
[21:18] * elle{LDS} shrugs, "these terms are basically bunk. they are these little "isms" that are used to try and fit into a more mainstream society...be it society at large or a more specific bdsm society."
[21:18] <raven{Az}> gmta Eric and ayli
[21:19] <raven{Az}> what terms elle?
[21:19] <elle{LDS}> SSC and RACK
[21:19] <raven{Az}> ok..
[21:19] <raven{Az}> I can agree as far as SSC goes..
[21:19] <Eric^> okay.... let me throw some stuff out that may illustrate things better
[21:19] <raven{Az}> however, I do not agree when it comes to RACK
[21:19] <elle{LDS}> what purpose do they really serve? i mean we just said that SSC is defined by the individual...not the general public...
[21:19] <Eric^> I'm the dom, therefore if I want to have sex, that's what's gonna happen, even if Kristy says no
[21:19] * ayli shushs and listens to Eric for a few
[21:19] <elle{LDS}> RACK still has that whole word of " consentual " in it....
[21:20] <raven{Az}> supposedly yes elle..however, SSC is used by many people in BDSM to blacklist many others in BDSM..
[21:20] <Kristy> I personally think RACK is a much better phrase, although I don't think a simple phrase is going to make it "ok" in the public's eye.
[21:20] <raven{Az}> consensual is a neccesity elle..hold on..Eric is speaking
[21:20] <Eric^> I'm the dom, I will decide if the relationship is poly or not
[21:20] <Eric^> I'm the dom, I will lend Kristy to anyone I want to or not
[21:20] <raven{Az}> the purpose they serve is basically an acronym that will describe (in general) how bdsmers do BDSM
[21:20] <raven{Az}> to those outside of BDSM
[21:21] * elle{LDS} hears the phrase (that her Master only gets to use once in a while...long story..) "I'm the Dom...that's why."
[21:21] <Eric^> I'm the sub... I won't question my dom's decisions
[21:21] <Eric^> these are the issues that the SSC crowd is talking about
[21:21] <Eric^> that and things like playing with whips, needles, blood and so on
[21:21] * star{M} raises hand have we said what RACK is an acronym for?
[21:22] <raven{Az}> risk aware consensual kink star  :)
[21:22] <star{M}> thank you raven :)
[21:22] <raven{Az}> SSC, when I first heard of it, had a lot more leeway than it does now..
[21:22] * raven{Az} is going to talk alot..so please bear with me for a few..
[21:23] * elle{LDS} thinks that its like a "securtiy blanket" (using SSC) for those who claim to be "kinky" but still have hangups and can't deal with those who are totally open and free and "know" themselves.
[21:23] <raven{Az}> When it was first explained to me it was explained that I had to decide what I considered to be safe, and sane in the play areas and the 24/7 power areas..
[21:23] <raven{Az}> Also, I had to decide for myself what kind of consent I was going to give..blanket consent, continual consent,or a mix of both..
[21:23] <raven{Az}> Over the past 4 years, I have seen SSC go from a way of describing that bdsmers are indeed as careful as they can be when they engage in what they enjoy..
[21:24] <Eric^> that was how I originally understood it
[21:24] <raven{Az}> to something that is now being used to soften bdsm so that society will accept it more readily..
[21:24] <raven{Az}> I've watched as edge play has become "taboo" under SSC..poly as well..and slavery just doesn't exist..
[21:24] <raven{Az}> a sub who does not have a safeword, and who gives blanket consent, is not "sane" under SSC anymore..
[21:25] <raven{Az}> SSC, as it was originally intended, does indeed fit everyone in BDSM...
[21:25] <raven{Az}> in that everyone who is "good" in BDSM does things as safely as they can (to their level of safe) as sanely as they can..and with consent..
[21:25] <elle{LDS}> in light of the recently publicized events that have happened as "bdsm related" what would one expect "SSC" to become?
[21:26] <raven{Az}> this change in SSC occured before the barell stuffer guy, and the guy in Arizona who tortured women..
[21:26] <elle{LDS}> that wasn't the only publicized event.
[21:27] <raven{Az}> What SSC is becoming, from what I can see, is a way for the large groups in BDSM to "police" thoseinvolved in bdsm..and to have some way of saying "They aren't real BDSMers" about those who are more extreme ...
[21:27] <elle{LDS}> what about the woman who, about 2 years before that (i think it was that long ago) who met her dom on the internet, gave herself to him, and negotiated a snuffsex scene with him? that got publicity...
[21:27] <ayli> I would expect.. honestly.. for people to ask questions.. to learn about it's about.. not to just decide another person must be nuts because they've reached a level of trust, or a level of submission that is different then thier own, and honestly, I'd expect, that just because what one person considers is safe, doesn't match anothers, they wouldn't be called sick twisted and insane.
[21:27] <raven{Az}> I know it wasnt elle...the problem is not in SSC..it's in how the media reports those crimes..
[21:27] <elle{LDS}> Ah...but therein lies the place where things twist...
[21:27] <raven{Az}> anyone can use bondage, and whips to harm others..that is not BDSM..never has been..however, whenever it occurs, it is reported as "BDSM"..
[21:28] <raven{Az}> yes..and it should have..personally, I feel snuff sex is not BDSM and is immoral..
[21:28] <raven{Az}> because it is basically murder
[21:28] <elle{LDS}> folks who are not into bdsm don't know that, raven.
[21:28] <elle{LDS}> they don't know that using a whip on someone with violence doesn't mean it isn't bdsm
[21:28] <raven{Az}> true elle...but how is a term like SSC that does not encompass the majority of bdsmers going to increase the knowledge of soceity?
[21:28] <elle{LDS}> i can't tell you how many of my vanilla friends were totally shocked that it wasn't considered such.
[21:28] <ayli> sugar coating it and making it all.. oh we don't really hurt anyone.. isn't going to teach folks who are not into bdsm.. what it is.. either elle
[21:29] <elle{LDS}> well...i'll tell you what i think...
[21:29] <raven{Az}> sugar coating it..and ridiculing those who are more "extreme" does not help anyone...if anything it shows that bdsm is not what people are saying it is..it is not a community, because we fight amongst ourselves too much over just what is and is not bdsm..
[21:29] <elle{LDS}> in light of the fact that in recent years, society in general and the media has been getting more exposure to bdsm (Exit to Eden, all the crimes that have happened, etc) it is no wonder that SSC has become what it has.
[21:29] <elle{LDS}> we have had to use it
[21:29] <elle{LDS}> as a defense
[21:29] <elle{LDS}> to say, 
[21:30] <elle{LDS}> "look...this is what SSC is..this is what we do....you cannot persecute us based on the fact we're ssc and these other people weren't...."
[21:30] <raven{Az}> yes..and I can understand that..however, it's not just being used that way to educate the public elle..
[21:30] <raven{Az}> it's being used that way to separate the people that don't conform to what the large groups consider to be SSC..
[21:30] <elle{LDS}> you have to also realize that things like poly, slavery, safewords...
[21:30] <elle{LDS}> have to change in the face of mainstream society...
[21:30] <raven{Az}> for example elle, your relationship with Lar would not fall under the large group's idea of SSC and thus would be deemed "non bdsm"
[21:30] <AlstrBlck> The trouble is, it always seems to be the most ignorant that wind up on tv defending BDSM.
[21:30] <ayli> it's used to harm people who don't belive that they should Have to conform to.. what everyone else thinks is safe.. or sane.. or even consensual
[21:31] <raven{Az}> why do they have to change elle?
[21:31] <raven{Az}> why do we have to conform to society's rule to gain acceptance?
[21:31] <ayli> that isn't fair elle
[21:31] <raven{Az}> BDSM is illegal..we all know that..
[21:31] <elle{LDS}> "slavery" has a negative connotation in society...therefore, when you talk about SSC to the public....you cannot say that slavery exists...it goes against the "positive' image that you want to portray to the public
[21:31] * AlstrBlck recalls an episode of Sally where the "Master" had on leather pants and a dirty t-shirt, and in short made a disgrace of himself thru his actions.
[21:31] <raven{Az}> and to be totally honest..I'll be damned if I am going to soften my bdsm preferences because of ignorant people who don't bother to learn about something before they condemn it
[21:31] <Kristy> the talk shows are hardly the place i'd want to try to defend out lifestyle
[21:32] * ayli smiles
[21:32] <raven{Az}> problem there is elle..we basically sell a "lie" to society..
[21:32] <elle{LDS}> well you don't have to soften your preferences...
[21:32] <elle{LDS}> but at the same time
[21:32] <raven{Az}> so when things come out about edge play, slavery etc...any acceptance we gained would be lost because we would be seen as a bunch of "liars"
[21:32] <ayli> so.. we sell the lie.. and when they figure out that it is a lie..
[21:32] <elle{LDS}> what about folks who get busted at D/s clubs? they haven't softened their preferences...but they get punished anyway...
[21:32] <ayli> yes raven..
[21:32] <raven{Az}> and..I wasn't talking about society..I was wanting to discuss SSC within the lifestyle itself..
[21:32] <elle{LDS}> the solution, one could claim, is don't play publicly..but why should i hide?
[21:32] <raven{Az}> how it differs from RACK..and why..
[21:32] <elle{LDS}> but that's the whole point...
[21:33] <raven{Az}> no elle..it's not the whole point..
[21:33] <elle{LDS}> SSC became this thing in the face of mainstream society....and people kept preaching it and it twists and we preach it to ourselves
[21:33] <raven{Az}> SSC is being used by BDSMers to condemn other bdsmers...
[21:33] <elle{LDS}> actually, raven...i meant that it was my whole point. sorry to confuse.
[21:33] <raven{Az}> actually..other peoplein BDSM preach it to people in BDSM..and use it to condemn relationships that differ from their own..
[21:34] <raven{Az}> as for society, I do not believe that any acronym is going to gain BDSM acceptance..and I do not think that we should try to gain acceptance by changing the basic fundamentals of dominance and submission to make them more palatable..
[21:34] <elle{LDS}> so why RACK then? that's another acronym....to use for society....whether it be bdsm related or otherwise.
[21:34] <ayli> I think, the only thing that is going to make any of it exceptable, is time, and real information.
[21:34] <Eric^> look..... the gay community was not able to gain acceptance till their own infighting stopped
[21:35] * elle{LDS} shrugs, "i just don't see that these acronyms serve useful purpose except to place labels on what it is that i do."
[21:35] <raven{Az}> beacuse basically elle, RACK does not inherently leave out the many different variances..because it states quite clearly that people who engage in BD or SM activities do so knowing the risk they are undertaking, and having agreed to accept the risks and possible consequences, and have consented to the activity..
[21:35] <ayli> as a lable.. risk aware.. certainly.. gives a .. better view.. then safe and sane
[21:36] <elle{LDS}> if i want to describe my relationship to someone else, then i can use words to describe..not generic labels that do not encompass or wrongly describe me.
[21:36] <raven{Az}> SSC on the other hand...is being used to define, for all in BDSM, just what is safe and sane..
[21:36] <ayli> everyone Has to have a label.. it's the world we live in
[21:36] <Kristy> I don't think there is a perfect answer or acronym out there, but RACK is much more inclusive than SSC.
[21:36] <raven{Az}> elle..all that labels are, are words who's definition matches our lifestyle choices..
[21:36] <raven{Az}> and without labeling your chosen role, your position, and your desires, you don't have the words to discuss any of them..
[21:37] <raven{Az}> I agree Kristy
[21:37] <ayli> lable - submissive
[21:37] <ayli> label even
[21:37] <raven{Az}> I agree Eric, with what you said about in fighting..BDSM will not gain acceptance until those involved in BDSM can accept EVERYONE who is involved in BDSM and not condemn those who are different..
[21:39] <Eric^> you have to have some sort of description
[21:39] <ayli> pretty much every descriptionary word.. that we use in our every day life is a label of some sort
[21:42] <raven{Az}> Well..this discussion is closed..real life is calling me loudly. I'm sorry all. Thank you for the discussion! It will be continued on Thursday December 7, with Thursday being the new day for the weekly discussions. :)

Session Close: Sun Dec 03 21:42:44 2000
 

Part Two: Thursday December 7, 2000
[21:20] * raven{Az} says Hello and welcome to #Leather_and_Roses' weekly discussions on BDSM topics. I hope you enjoy it. The following rules apply for all present.
[21:20] <raven{Az}> You must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave. Legal age being 18 or 21 depending on your location, if you are thought to be younger, you will be asked your age. If you are found to be younger, you will be kick/banned.
[21:20] <raven{Az}> No trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night Trolling is the advertising of yourself, wants/needs/desires, and/or personal ads. If you troll, you will be kick/banned.
[21:20] <raven{Az}> Harassment will not be tolerated either. If you harass another person, and an op is made aware of it, you will be asked to stop. If you continue, you will be kick/banned. This discussion is for enjoyment and information, not harassment.
[21:20] <raven{Az}> Please try to stay on topic and discuss one thread at a time. If the discussion gets overly fast (or overly emotional, or someone requests a break), I will call a break. This is so everyone can take a few moments to relax, and get their thoughts in order before continuing.
[21:20] <raven{Az}> If it erodes into a semantics argument, and those who are disagreeing can not agree to disagree, I will close the discussion for the night. We are here to discuss and learn from one anther, not fight with one another.
[21:20] <raven{Az}> Please be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. Flaming is insulting the person who states an idea. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[21:20] <raven{Az}> All statements are publishable on the web site,. I will change nicks if it is requested via email to webmaster@leathernroses.com. If I receive no requests, logs will be published in full on the web site and the lack of a request will be taken as consent to publish your statements.
[21:21] <raven{Az}> I hope you enjoy tonight's discussion, the topic is SSC vs RACK...
[21:21] <raven{Az}> this is a continuation from Sunday night's Discusion...
[21:21] <raven{Az}> so..let's start with..what is SSC?
[21:21] <AAhhzz> Safe Sane Conscentual.......
[21:22] <Eric^> okay.... so we know what the acronym stands for now
[21:22] <raven{Az}> ok..why was SSC created.
[21:22] <raven{Az}> ?
[21:22] <intoit{N}> for the protection of the sub
[21:23] <AAhhzz> As a politically correct stance to face the world with.......
[21:23] <Eric^> it was actually created by a couple of large lobbying organizations to try and present a kinder, gentler explanation of s/m to the public
[21:23] <raven{Az}> I think it was originally created as a way of explaining how people go about engaging in BDSM activities..and it was then brought into use as a way of making BDSM more palatable to society in general...
[21:23] <Eric^> the only possible protection for a submissive is a combination of common sense and the honor of the dominant
[21:24] <raven{Az}> OK..SSC as an explanation to society..is it a good one? 
[21:24] <raven{Az}> I have to agree with that Eric...but will add that the sub must take certain steps before getting involved that directly affect their safety at the time and in the future..
[21:25] <Eric^> anyhow.... I have problems with SSC.... much of the scening I do is not safe..... I have reduced the chance of injury, but it is inherently dangerous
[21:25] <Eric^> by certain psychological standards I am a sexual deviant
[21:25] <raven{Az}> By certain standards Eric, we all are..
[21:26] <intoit{N}> some more so than othewrs
[21:26] <Eric^> and consent only plays a part at specific times
[21:26] <raven{Az}> Isn't all the play we do in BDSM dangerous to one extent or another?
[21:26] <intoit{N}> it can be
[21:27] <Eric^> ummmm, rephrase that... much of the s/m and bondage scening is dangerous..... bdsm is not just s/m and bondage though
[21:27] <AAhhzz> Yes.....to a certain extent it is....but knowing where the partners limits are and how far they can be pushed is part of what we do
[21:27] <raven{Az}> true it isn't Eric..
[21:27] <raven{Az}> So if SSC were created to present BDSM in a favorable light to society, do you feel that it is doing it's job?
[21:27] <Eric^> but, yes, generally speaking s/m is dangerous
[21:28] <{sonja}JP> not really - its sort of just another lie......if its found out - it makes the whole situation look even worse
[21:28] <AAhhzz> In part yes.....but it is also being used inside the "community" as  a basis for putdowns and judgement of others.....
[21:28] <Eric^> I think that .... irregardless of what acronyms we dream up... we will always be perceived by outsiders as sick, dangerous people. Evil, abusive doms and poor, victimized subs
[21:29] <raven{Az}> I agree sonja..
[21:29] <raven{Az}> Part of me agrees Eric..but the rose colored glasses part of me likes to hope that will not always be the case..
[21:29] <raven{Az}> Ron, I agree..how is ssc being used in this way?
[21:30] <AAhhzz> Yeah but for the outside world being able to use the phrase SSC to explain that what we are doing is the choice of both partners makes it somewhat acceptable......well not to jerry Falwell...but then again he things Po is gay.....so what does he know
[21:30] <Eric^> example.... what on earth do you mean you let him play with knives with you? Don't you realize that isn't safe? Your dom is not SSC, honey, you need to get out.
[21:30] <raven{Az}> Not much Ron LOL
[21:31] <raven{Az}> that is one way Eric..
[21:31] <raven{Az}> SSC seems to have developed into an almost set listing of acceptable practices..and unacceptable practices...
[21:31] <Eric^> exactly... I was trying to give an example of that in practice
[21:31] <raven{Az}> edge play is one of those common found practices, that is now listed as "unnaceptable"
[21:32] * AAhhzz nods...Yeah......I can think of a few people I know who would have been squicked if not outright horrified if they had seen raven and I playing with the straight razor.......
[21:32] <raven{Az}> yup..I know Eric..was just summarizing :)
[21:32] <raven{Az}> What are other things that you have heard called non-ssc?
[21:32] <raven{Az}> like..no safewords..
[21:32] <Eric^> unlimited relationships
[21:32] <{sonja}JP> hmmmmmmm - face slapping......??? LOL
[21:32] <raven{Az}> yup
[21:32] <raven{Az}> yup
[21:32] <raven{Az}> water sports
[21:32] <Eric^> scat, golden showers, objectification, humiliation
[21:32] <AAhhzz> breath play
[21:32] <raven{Az}> yes
[21:32] <raven{Az}> yes
[21:33] <Eric^> whips
[21:33] <raven{Az}> peircings/needle play
[21:33] <raven{Az}> yes
[21:33] <raven{Az}> slaves
[21:33] <raven{Az}> the m/s relationship style
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> lessee......is spanking still allowed?
[21:33] <AAhhzz> Master ordered gang bangs....oh wait those are just fun
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> LOL
[21:33] <raven{Az}> Only on alternate wednesdays..in the OTK position..with a bare hand sonja..
[21:33] <raven{Az}> LOLOL JOKE
[21:33] <raven{Az}> nope..they are "unsafe" Ron :)
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> floggers are out tooo?????
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> ok - i quit
[21:34] <raven{Az}> So, if SSC were to work, what change do you think needs to be made to the current usage of SSC?
[21:34] * Eric^ was told because my bag o tricks contained only floggers, canes, knives and whips I was an "extreme player"
[21:34] <{sonja}JP> i dont think it can work
[21:34] <raven{Az}> that's not fair nor nice Eric.. :((
[21:34] <raven{Az}> why not sonja?
[21:34] <{sonja}JP> tooo many of the words are ...........*thinking*
[21:35] <{sonja}JP> Opinion words
[21:35] <AAhhzz> Subjective sonja?
[21:35] <Eric^> judgemental? subjective?
[21:35] * AAhhzz nods
[21:35] <{sonja}JP> Safe - someone's (whose?) opinion
[21:35] * AAhhzz smiles at Eric.....
[21:35] <{sonja}JP> Sane - waaaaaaay subjective
[21:35] <raven{Az}> I agree..:)
[21:35] <AAhhzz> Sane is I think a sliding curve thingy
[21:35] <{sonja}JP> Consensual is the only word that has an absolute definition - and even it gets pulled and stretched
[21:35] <raven{Az}> SSC is far to subjective and it is not at all inclusive of the many variances found under the umbrella of BDSM..
[21:36] <{sonja}JP> can you consent once or every time or what???
[21:36] <Eric^> nope, I disagree... consensual is between the two people involved
[21:36] * AAhhzz nods....Very true raven
[21:36] <raven{Az}> However, does SSC provide newbies with a way of explaining BDSM to their partners (or prospective partners) that is less threatening, so that the two together can at least try out some BDSM to decide if they want to be more involved?
[21:37] <raven{Az}> I agree on that view of consent Eric..
[21:37] <raven{Az}> but also..I can see sonja's point..there are three views of consent that I have seen thus far...
[21:37] <Eric^> mmmmm... possibly.... but, do we want to dilute what we do to meet the lowest common denominator?
[21:37] <AAhhzz> I think thats about the only good thing I have heard about SSC.....for the newbies......
[21:37] <raven{Az}> but it's up to thoes involved to decide what kind of consent they are most comfortable with
[21:38] <raven{Az}> It isn't so much meeting the lowest common denominator Eric as it is allowing people who are truly interested in BDSM, with the means to explore it without scaring the daylights out of their desired partner..
[21:38] * {sonja}JP will admit that she was comforted by the "contracts" and "safewords" etc......
[21:38] <{sonja}JP> at first
[21:38] <raven{Az}> say in a vanilla marriage..hubby finds he is sub..so using SSC explains it to his wife (whom he thinks is a domme)..and with that, the wife feels more comfortable persuing the idea..
[21:39] <Eric^> why should I pretend that it's kinda cozy to make people happy? I like being on the edge. and I think it ought to scare the hell out of you.... maybe you will think before you let some fast talker tie you up in a hotel room 5 minutes after meeting in person for the first time
[21:39] <raven{Az}> whereas if the wife were immediately faced with blood sports, breath control, and other edge type stuff..she might back off out of pure shock or fear..
[21:39] <raven{Az}> good point Eric..
[21:39] <{sonja}JP> really good point
[21:39] <Eric^> and it might be for the best raven.... if she is doing it cause it's cozy and easy and not too scary, rather than what she really wants to do
[21:40] <raven{Az}> I haven't made up my mind completely on whether or not SSC is valuable to newbies..I personally would like to say No..but I've read far too many people saying that it was what allowed them to broach the subject with their partner..though RACK could do the same thing..
[21:40] * raven{Az} nods..true..good point Eric..if she's doing that, the relationship won't last anyway..
[21:40] <raven{Az}> So, RACK is Risk Aware Consensual Kink...what are your thoughts on that term?
[21:41] <Eric^> look... if what you want is hard, nasty, dangerous, scary s/m but you are presenting it as SSC.... some sort of happy middle ground, aren't you living a lie?
[21:41] <raven{Az}> yes..I would think so Eric
[21:41] * Eric^ thinks he has beat that horse to death <g>
[21:41] <raven{Az}> nope...I don't think so Eric :)
[21:42] <{sonja}JP> i think it was an excellent point - and even tho i already agreed with you - i hadnt thought about it on that level......
[21:42] * raven{Az} thinks for a few..
[21:42] <Eric^> I guess my bottom line is.... I ain't SSC, and I don't want to pretend I am... not even the original intent.... I also want to be accepted for the warped fuck that I am
[21:43] <Eric^> and not judged because of it
[21:43] <raven{Az}> I can see that..and I can agree with that..
[21:43] <raven{Az}> I would love to see that happen as well..
[21:43] <{sonja}JP> lemme ask you a question Eric.....
[21:43] <Eric^> okay
[21:43] <raven{Az}> but in order for that to happen, a way to describe the lifestyle must be found that is inclusive...if you get my meaning..
[21:43] * raven{Az} pauses for sonja's question.
[21:43] <raven{Az}> sorry sonja..was typing too fast...
[21:44] <Eric^> go for it sonja... I'm all ears
[21:44] <{sonja}JP> If someone says......."EEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWW that's gross" is that being judgemental? - as long as they dont say........"stop that, i think its gross"?
[21:44] <Eric^> that wouldn't bother me a bit... I kinda like it actually
[21:44] <raven{Az}> Ohhhh..can I offer my thoughts on that???
[21:45] <raven{Az}> or is this an Eric only inquiry?
[21:45] * raven{Az} grins
[21:45] <Eric^> go for it raven
[21:45] <raven{Az}> Thanks Eric :)
[21:45] * {sonja}JP has opinions.........but doesnt Force others to act on them, but is still called judgemental at times
[21:45] <{sonja}JP> sure raven.......
[21:45] <raven{Az}> Personally, it wouldn't bother me most of the time sonja..but I can't say anything as far as during PMS goes..
[21:45] <{sonja}JP> lol
[21:45] <{sonja}JP> ok
[21:46] * Eric^ having opinions is not judgemental, it is normal.... expressing them in a way that implies I am wrong, or immoral, or sick, or whatever is
[21:46] <raven{Az}> however, I can see where someone who is new, and thus still insecure about their own likes/dislikes in BDSM..and maybe afraid of what they desire in the "more" areas..might see it as judgemental..
[21:46] <raven{Az}> I'm being honest sonja..when I PMS I tend to take things the wrong way..when I normally wouldn't..so I tossed that in..and no I'm not PMSng this week..LOLOL
[21:46] <raven{Az}> I agree Eric! :)
[21:47] <Eric^> I happen to think scat is .... pretty gross.... but hey, if it floats your boat, have fun
[21:47] <Eric^> vs.
[21:47] <{sonja}JP> water sports give me the huuhhhhhhhs
[21:47] <raven{Az}> I happen to think it's pretty gross too...
[21:47] <raven{Az}> water sports are ok to me :)
[21:47] <Eric^> scat.... that's nasty.... you are sick.... I cannot imagine what you are thinking of, moral people don't do that
[21:47] <{sonja}JP> as do nipple rings actually - but if someone wants em......go right ahead.....
[21:47] <raven{Az}> definitely judgemental statements Eric..
[21:48] <Eric^> if it is on the edge for you, I probably will enjoy that it squicks ya, but if you judge me for it, I probably will get pissed off
[21:49] <raven{Az}> So what do you all think of RACK?
[21:49] <Eric^> nipple rings are sexy as hell, especially with a little silver leash attached
[21:49] <AAhhzz> Sounds more military to me....LOL
[21:49] * {sonja}JP likes it better - but risk aware is still - opinion based
[21:49] <raven{Az}> I agree Eric..I love my nipple rings..and just 3 years ago I completely despised nipple rings..
[21:49] <Eric^> I think it's just another way to express the sentiment of SSC
[21:50] <AAhhzz> And especially if the little silver chain is also attatched to a clit ring........
[21:50] <{sonja}JP> ack
[21:50] * raven{Az} giggles..interesting thought there Ron LOL
[21:50] <raven{Az}> how so Eric?
[21:50] <Eric^> sounds sexy to me.... now I'm thinking about attaching a leash to Kristy's hood piercing... yummy
[21:51] <raven{Az}> Ron wants me to get my clit hood peirced..for just that reason Eric..he likes the idea of attaching a leash to it..
[21:51] <Eric^> it's just a different way of trying to present our lifestyle choices as palatable to people in and out of the lifestyle
[21:51] * raven{Az} has to say she likes the idea too..<giggle>
[21:51] <raven{Az}> But isn't RACK at least more inclusive than SSC in that it clearly states that those involved are aware of the risks inherent in the activities they have consented to participate in?
[21:52] <raven{Az}> rather than trying to define what is safely acceptable as a BD or SM activity?
[21:52] * AAhhzz nods....Yeah....just a different face for the outside world......but then again....Risk awareness is I think a necessity for us.....after all.....I have to be aware of the risks I take with raven...what is and is not doable
[21:52] <Eric^> but... suppose you are flying on endorphins the first time I do knife play with you.... you can't possibly be making an aware decision based on risk
[21:52] <{sonja}JP> it just still leaves it open for some judgmental peeps to say what is risky......
[21:52] <Eric^> your judgement is way clouded by the endorphin rush
[21:53] <raven{Az}> True..I can't..but then is this not where the whole negotiation thing comes into play for first time scenes and such?
[21:53] <raven{Az}> True sonja..it does..
[21:53] * Eric^ doesn't negotiate... I show you what's in my bag... you consent to all of it or none of it.
[21:53] <raven{Az}> definitely Eric...with the endorphin rush one can't say they were completely cognizent and thus able to make an informed decision..specially when sub space can often make a sub/slave do anything their dom asks...
[21:53] <{sonja}JP> why show the bag?
[21:53] <Eric^> because you aren't my slave... you are a scene partner
[21:53] <{sonja}JP> what if you want to add to the bag?
[21:54] <raven{Az}> that's still negotiation to a point Eric in that you state your desired play areas..and the sub either takes it or leaves it..
[21:54] <{sonja}JP> ah - ok
[21:54] <{sonja}JP> play scene
[21:54] <raven{Az}> least..in my book
[21:54] <raven{Az}> but then..I have a rather broad definition of negotiation in BDSM
[21:54] <Eric^> sort of... it is checking limits
[21:54] * raven{Az} nods!! yes..much bettter way of putting that..thanks Eric ! :))
[21:54] <Eric^> gonna be afk for a couple minutes
[21:54] <raven{Az}> ok..we'll pause for you
[21:54] <raven{Az}> (BREAK)
BREAK ENDS
[21:58] <AAhhzz> what do you think of SSC and RACK fae/.
[21:59] * fae isn't familiar w/ what RACK stands for *
[22:00] <AAhhzz> Risk Awareness Consenual Kink.....I think
[22:00] <Eric^> anyhow.... while I was away I was thinking about this. I realized part of the problem is that SSC, and now RACK, are really aimed squarely at s/m scenes. unfortunately they are being applied to relationships
[22:00] * {sonja}JP likes that sort of negotiation......it also lets the sub know what kind of dom she is dealing with
[22:00] <{sonja}JP> well - that doesnt fit now :)~
[22:00] <Eric^> the sort I described sonja?
[22:00] <{sonja}JP> that is a good point tooo Eric.......and - yes
[22:01] <Eric^> RACK = Risk Aware Consensual Kink
[22:01] <Eric^> a term coined in NYC
[22:06] <raven{Az}> Yes..I see your point Eric.they are made more for s/m scenes than anything else..yet are being applied to relationships..
[22:06] <Eric^> consent in a two hour scene is dramatically different from consent in a two year relationship
[22:06] <raven{Az}> this is true..
[22:07] <raven{Az}> I think that for me, in the context of describing the s/m and b/d part of BDSM, RACK settles easier on my mind because it doesn't instantly exclude people..
[22:07] <raven{Az}> though i guess if RACK eventually goes the same route as SSC, that opinion could change
[22:09] <raven{Az}> Do you think that RACK lends itself as easily to judging people inside of BDSM as SSC does?
[22:09] <Eric^> it can if I want it to
[22:10] <raven{Az}> true Eric...I guess that goes back to any acronym can be used negatively if someone chose to do so with it..
[22:10] <raven{Az}> does anyone have anything they'd like to add?
[22:13] <raven{Az}> well all..I think that ends the discussion for tonight...:) Thanks all it went very well :))