D/s Without Love

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[21:06] <raven^Ron> I hope you enjoy tonight's discussion, the topic is BDSM without Love
[21:06] <raven^Ron> lets start with..do you think love is neccesary to BDSM?
[21:07] <raven^Ron> Ron: In my relationship, yes
[21:07] * {sonja}JP thinks it is neccessary for her.....
[21:07] <arella> not in all relationships
[21:07] * min` requests a definition of BDSM
[21:07] <Eric^> can we distinguish between bdsm (which is extremely general) and d/s
[21:07] <Amax> I wouldn't think it would be required, but respect is...
[21:08] <raven^Ron> I don't see love as neccessary to every relationship under bdsm...
[21:08] <raven^Ron> sure Eric..how do we distinguish between them?
[21:08] <raven^Ron> I agree Amax..respect is neccessary
[21:08] <{sonja}JP> and if we distinguish between those.....do we take out M/s also?.......i would....
[21:09] <raven^Ron> yes sonja...
[21:09] <Eric^> well, bdsm is quite general, it covers a lot of ground, d/s is more focused on relationships between two people
[21:09] <raven^Ron> true Eric..least I agree with that..
[21:10] <min`> it's my understanding that BDSM are the tools in a D/s or M/s relationship
[21:10] <Eric^> so, I have bdsm interaction and relationships that have no love in them at all. I have one fairly consistent scene partner who is just a good friend
[21:10] <raven^Ron> Ron: BDSM is a very general topic, covering everything from play partners to m/s relationships, and I don't think you need to be in love with your play partner..
[21:10] <raven^Ron> tools min?
[21:10] <Eric^> but in d/s we are talking about a specific type of relationship
[21:10] <min`> tolls such as bondage or to dominate etc
[21:10] <raven^Ron> yes..dominant/submissive relationships..which leaves out m/s relationships..we can discuss each seperately if people prefer..
[21:10] <raven^Ron> ahhhhh...I understand min
[21:11] <min`> so if you are just practicing BDSM no love is necessary
[21:11] <bella`> i agree min - love is not required to 'play'
[21:11] <Eric^> min, bdsm contains d/s, at least I think it does. bdsm is much more than just d/s
[21:11] <raven^Ron> isn't d/s part of bdsm..
[21:11] <raven^Ron> ?
[21:12] <Eric^> yes, that's what I mean
[21:12] * arella tries to follow along
[21:12] <Eric^> and I see no reason at all why I can't top someone in an s/m scene without loving them
[21:12] * Amax smiles to arella
[21:12] <raven^Ron> any interaction between two people can be called a relationship..from acquaintences to close friends..to lovers..to partners ...there are many kinds of relationships..
[21:12] <bella`> personally, i believe we should have 2 acronyms...bdsm and dsms
[21:12] <{sonja}JP> i think the two are separate...
[21:12] <Eric^> I think that's fairly obvious though. I think the real issue is the relationships
[21:13] <bella`> the first for types of play, the second for types of relationships.
[21:13] <min`> d/s is a part of it yes as when you are playing someone is submitting, someone dominating etc which i think is separate from a D/s relationship
[21:13] <raven^Ron> makes sense bella...
[21:13] * min` thinks bella` is right
[21:13] <raven^Ron> Interestling m/s is left out of bdsm..
[21:13] <raven^Ron> interestingly even
[21:14] <bella`> for bondage and domination and sadism and masochism - love is not a necessity
[21:14] <raven^Ron> in any relationship, within the borders of bdsm, is love a neccessity?
[21:14] <Eric^> I don't see a difference between d/s and m/s
[21:14] <raven^Ron> why not bella?
[21:14] * {sonja}JP thinks that it sounds like we are asking if casual sex is possible without love, and is a ltr possible without love.....
[21:14] <raven^Ron> ltr?
[21:14] <Eric^> long term relationship
[21:14] <raven^Ron> actually sonja..that's what I'm asking
[21:14] <{sonja}JP> long term relationship
[21:14] <raven^Ron> thanks Eric :)
[21:14] <raven^Ron> thanks sonja :)
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> lol
[21:15] <arella> what kind of love?
[21:15] <Eric^> I think a long term service oriented relationship IS possible without love
[21:15] <min`> actually there are many ltr's that are not based on love
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> oohhhhhh.........there ya go arella.....asking the difficult questions
[21:15] <Eric^> I think it is rare though
[21:15] <raven^Ron> is the bdsm equivalent of casual sex (guess it could be called casual scening) capable of existing without love?
[21:15] <bella`> you can 'play' with someone without love.  I have had things 'shown' on me from people that i barely knew in a classroom situation.
[21:15] <raven^Ron> lets start with romantic love arella :)
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> i think so.....
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> in answer to raven.
[21:15] <arella> okay.. no.. I don't think romantic love is a requirement
[21:15] <raven^Ron> I agree with you Eric..it is possible, but rare..I think there has to be some kind of love there for an LTR
[21:16] <raven^Ron> I agree bella..
[21:16] <Eric^> sure it is r/R. I have, as I said, a close friend that I scene with fairly regularly. We are simply friends
[21:16] <raven^Ron> Ron: I agree that for a long term relationship there has to be some kind of love..even if it's the love between friends..
[21:17] <star{M}> i can see how you can act out a scene without love...kinda like roleplaying. but there still has to be a level of caring and respect, i think.
[21:17] <min`> Eric^ don't you love your close friend in some way?
[21:17] * {sonja}JP thinks that would be a chicken/egg argument
[21:17] <raven^Ron> Could you scene with, or have a relationship with, someone you had no "love" feelings for?
[21:17] <arella> no
[21:17] <{sonja}JP> short term........yes
[21:17] <min`> raven^Ron i could, if i was told to by Mark
[21:17] <Eric^> min.... hmmmm, I don't know. We are friends, we are attracted to each other, on an s/m level. but love, I don't think so
[21:17] <raven^Ron> actualy, star, for me..I prefer to have some kind of emotional attachment before I'll play..at the very least, caring and respect..
[21:17] <bella`> I also believe that you can have D/s or M/s without love.  It is a level of commitment.  Love is a separate complication/bonus *smile*
[21:18] <raven^Ron> I agree that it is possible bella.. :)
[21:18] <raven^Ron> so what is the attraction in these areas, where love is not needed?
[21:18] <Eric^> I have also done single scenes with people that I barely knew, and never scened with again
[21:18] <min`> Eric^ i'm not speaking of romantic love merely friendship love
[21:18] <simoriah> I can and have scened with people I had no love for
[21:18] <raven^Ron> Ron: Eric..you're a slut!! <just kidding> that's ok..I'm a slut too
[21:18] <raven^Ron> raven giggles..no shit ROn
[21:19] * arella tilts her head.. how can you trust someone you know has no caring feelings for you at all?
[21:19] * Eric^ grins, thanks Ron. I am a slut, and proud of it
[21:19] <raven^Ron> good question arella...I don't think everyone can do that...but I think it can be done..
[21:19] <raven^Ron> I think it would depend on what the people are wanting to get out of it..casual scening, the whole point is the thrill for those involved..no strings attached...
[21:19] <star{M}> Oh i am not saying I could, raven! lol! i was just saying i could see it. being in an 18 year marriage with my Master, love will ALWAYS be there :)
[21:19] <raven^Ron> Ron: It could be just lust
[21:19] <bella`> i can trust them to know how to wield a whip..and how not to mark me. Caring is unnecessary in the skill.
[21:19] * arella nods
[21:19] <min`> i'll scene with someone else where no love is involved if Mark wants me too, i trust mark and i trust that he will be certain that i am safe
[21:19] <raven^Ron> I know star :)
[21:20] <raven^Ron> Ron: Congratulations star, I did not realize it was 18 years..
[21:20] <raven^Ron> Congrats star that's wonderful!! :)))
[21:20] <arella> yes.. but isn't that an extension of knowing Mark cares for you min?
[21:20] <bella`> i view it as their qualifications..just like i would check a doctor's before operating on me, but i don't need my doctor to 'love' me
[21:20] * star{M} blushes and smiles
[21:21] <min`> arella yes you could say that love is involved but not directly
[21:21] <Eric^> so, can you live a d/s relationship in a 24/7 scenario without love
[21:21] <raven^Ron> I know I am perfectly capable of sex for sex's sake...or scneing just for the play..without love...However, I do tend to prefer it to be with someone I at least am friendly with..I'm not sure I could do either with a complete stranger...
[21:21] <bella`> it depends on whether or not you need love to be happy.  Some don't - the dynamic is enough for them.
[21:21] <raven^Ron> I think you can Eric...personally, it leaves something out..but that's for me...to others, it's perfectly fulfilling..
[21:22] <min`> before Mark i have scened without love mostly because of a craving for it
[21:22] <Eric^> r/R I have auctioned myself at scene events more than once, it's actually kinda fun
[21:22] <raven^Ron> Is it Eric? I've wondered about it.but am a chickenshit
[21:22] * simoriah agrees with Eric
[21:22] <star{M}> a d/s 24/7 without love? i personally dont see how
[21:23] <Eric^> why not star?
[21:23] <raven^Ron> it would have to be a service based relationship..with respect...
[21:23] <bella`> it depends on whether you submit to dominance, or to love.
[21:23] <raven^Ron> but..wouldn't it eventually grow to include some level of love or caring?
[21:23] <min`> good point bella`
[21:23] <{sonja}JP> i cant imagine any 24/7 relationshipworking for very long without love
[21:24] <{sonja}JP> heck......many of them cant work WITH love
[21:24] <Eric^> it would have to include respect and such.
[21:24] <raven^Ron> many m/s ones do that sonja..
[21:24] <bella`> i surrendered to my owner long before i fell in love with him.
[21:24] <star{M}> the concept is just so foreign to me, Eric^
[21:24] <{sonja}JP> but then you fell in love......
[21:24] <{sonja}JP> the seeds were prolly there (my opinion)
[21:24] <bella`> sonja, it depends on how much one needs love to be happy.  If you need it, then 24/7 without it will end in 'divorce' eventually
[21:25] <{sonja}JP> umm.......yeah.....saw that one first-hand
[21:25] <{sonja}JP> :)
[21:25] <bella`> yes sonja, i did fall in love with him - and yup, same here, divorce court on Tuesday.  
[21:26] <min`> bella` is it being televised?
[21:26] <raven^Ron> Ron: sorry to hear that bella
[21:26] <Eric^> but it should be possible star. for example... how about soldiers in a combat unit, they are together 24/7, their sergeant has 24/7 power over them, an immense amount of power, yet he does not love them, except perhaps as a father loves his children
[21:26] <bella`> the seeds might have been there.  But, they were not the reason i submitted to him.
[21:26] <{sonja}JP> then there is a type of love Eric
[21:26] <Eric^> but it is not romantic relationship type love sonja
[21:26] <star{M}> ok, i can see that Eric... from that point of view
[21:27] <raven^Ron> Ron: Eric, you're right..people I have been in charge of I've cared a great deal for..even when I dind't neccessarily like them
[21:27] <simoriah> I don't have to love someone to submit to them but I must respect them
[21:27] * {sonja}JP agrees that one could start a D/s or M/s relationship without love......i just cant see it lasting without it
[21:27] <bella`> Or another example, my owner is going to send in my application to the Estate for training - i guarantee if i am accepted that i will be doing so without 'love' - much as i might respect Flagg et al.
[21:27] * Eric^ smiles, I was a sergeant in command of soldiers for a decade, including in combat. I exerted 24/7 power over them, but I did not love them
[21:27] <simoriah> In fact, I think it may be simpler and less complicated if love is absent
[21:27] <raven^Ron> it depends on what the people want out of it..if they want simply the service, then service doesn't need love
[21:27] <raven^Ron> Ron: I agree with sonja..
[21:27] <{sonja}JP> but in that bella, you are still submitting to Draco......not really Flagg......
[21:27] <raven^Ron> how so simi?
[21:28] <simoriah> There are less trappings
[21:28] <min`> maybe you loved your job Eric^?
[21:28] <raven^Ron> actually sonja, if she is with Flagg 24/7, she will submit to him..doesn;'t matter who gave the order...
[21:28] <Eric^> oh I did min
[21:28] <bella`> i agree simi....love complicates it.
[21:28] <raven^Ron> so a d/s or m/s relationship is too complicated with love? why?
[21:28] <bella`> exactly raven.  
[21:28] <{sonja}JP> right.....but the whole thing is that she is going b/c Draco told her tooo......
[21:28] <Eric^> not too complicated, but it does add a complication
[21:29] <{sonja}JP> so every order she follows is b/c He told her to.......does that make anysense?
[21:29] <min`> i have submitted in loveless relationships before, and not just one night thingy's either
[21:29] <raven^Ron> yes sonja, but once she's there, the orders will not be coming from Draco..but from Flagg..
[21:29] <raven^Ron> yes it makes sense sonja..
[21:30] <bella`> i would be there because Draco sent me.  I would submit to Flagg or Ken or Sir C because they are dominant over me.
[21:30] <raven^Ron> I've done it as well min, over time I came to care a great deal..but I learned, that for me, I like the love..
[21:30] * raven^Ron is a softy
[21:30] <simoriah> You're going to the Estate as well, bella?
[21:30] <arella> would you not be doing it to please Draco in the end bella`?
[21:30] <min`> raven^Ron orders from Flagg yes but bella`s mindset will still be focused for Draco
[21:30] <raven^Ron> true min..I can see it both ways
[21:30] <{sonja}JP> ty arella and min :) that is what i was trying to say
[21:30] <bella`> Once there, even knowing that Draco is aware of the training - i would be submitting to The Estate.
[21:30] * Amax nods to Qryz
[21:31] <raven^Ron> though, wouldn't bella's mindset be focused on pleasing Flagg, Soulhuntre, and SirC as well?
[21:31] * Eric^ were I ever to place Kristy in a training scenario, her submission would be to me, not the trainer. The trainer would be a tool I used to accomplish something with Kristy that I wished
[21:31] <min`> submitting to the rules and regulations perhaps bella` but Draco is applying, he is sending you etc
[21:31] <bella`> No, i would do my best not to fail Draco - however, i would be focused on the orders themselves
[21:31] <raven^Ron> I understand Eric
[21:31] <{sonja}JP> THANK YOU ERIC>...........that is it......the "tool" idea
[21:32] <fairys_ki> fairy has work...ty for the discussion..:) be well everyone..
[21:32] <raven^Ron> yw fairys_ki :)
[21:32] <bella`> and yes simi, Draco has said he will be sending my application in.
[21:32] <raven^Ron> so..we lost a thread..what are the complications caused in a relationship when love is present?
[21:32] <bella`> i would submit to the authority structure - love would be entirely unnecessary.  
[21:33] <raven^Ron> Ron: harder to separate emotions from rules, orders and structure...
[21:33] <raven^Ron> raven: True Ron
[21:33] <bella`> yes.  Draco has stated he is sometimes too easy on me BECAUSE he loves me.
[21:33] * Qryz was a much stricter Domme before falling in love
[21:33] <min`> why try to separate them if you have love?
[21:33] <raven^Ron> Ron: Oh Qryz you're just a softy <g>
[21:33] <Eric^> love introduces a complication, love implies that you wish to care for, protect, etc the one you love
[21:34] * {sonja}JP wonders why all that is so bad?
[21:34] <bella`> It is hard to risk 'ruining' the love relationship for the power dynamic.  
[21:34] <Eric^> yet, the d/s implies that you may do things which are hurtful, at least short term, for the sub
[21:34] <min`> but isn't a dominants place to protect the submissive?
[21:34] <raven^Ron> Ron: Because sometimes min you make a decision coldly and logically but when it comes time to act upon that decision, your heart starts screaming at you..no
[21:34] <raven^Ron> Isn't caring for and protecting part of a d/s relationship whether or not love is present Eric?
[21:34] <{sonja}JP> any worse than it does with your kids?
[21:34] * star{M} sees no complications thankyouverymuch :)
[21:34] <bella`> It depends on what you wish from your relationship.  
[21:34] <arella> wouldn't it also make a person strive towards doing better ie :I love so and so, and as such, I don't want to disapoint, (even more then ussual) and so I will do this or that. ?
[21:35] <raven^Ron> I think it can work both ways arella..
[21:35] <Eric^> but, the love may blind you to whether you are really doing so or not r/R
[21:35] <bella`> It is also easier to think 'well, he loves me, he would not want me to push myself with this cold'
[21:35] <Qryz> my problem is that if I look at a submissive, I see someone who is child-like in the need to have order/structure...when I look at my mate I see an adult who's goal, admittedly, is to please me, but still is an adult...
[21:35] <{sonja}JP> ok........lemme ask a question.......
[21:35] <arella> yes.. I can see that bella`..
[21:35] <bella`> when that is a matter of comfort, not health concern.
[21:35] <raven^Ron> it can be a drawback in that the love may blind the dominant to enforcing his rules..and/or allow the submissive to shrug things off that he/she normally wouldn't if the love wasn't there..the love making it possible for both to occur because it softens the reactions on both sides..
[21:36] <raven^Ron> however, for some, being in love with one's dominant can increase the desire to please..at the same time, it decreases the structure that many find so neccessary
[21:36] <min`> in my present state my love for Mark has helped intensify the our bond
[21:36] <raven^Ron> go ahead sonja..with your question
[21:36] <bella`> it confuses me sometimes..i have different expectations from a 'lover' than i do from an 'owner'
[21:37] <bella`> sometimes i fall on the wrong side of the fence.
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> i am wondering if there is a REASON to have a D/s relationship without love......it may be possible.....but why? - in the long term - 
[21:37] <min`> the deepr my love the stronger the submission, the more i can grow
[21:37] <raven^Ron> some people do not want or need love sonja..instead they want/need the structure of a d/s relationship, without the love...
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> what do you get out of a longterm relationship wihtout love
[21:38] * Qryz shoves blackrose out of the way to hug her honey
[21:38] <bella`> because some of us need to be dominated...we need to submit..we feel incomplete without it - it is more important than love.
[21:38] <raven^Ron> power exchange sonja?
[21:38] <Eric^> power, satisfaction, a job well done
[21:38] * Qryz could easily have a straight D/s non-love relationship with a beta sub...but only because I am filled with mizu as my alpha mate
[21:39] * {sonja}JP sees the domination as a "part" of what she is/was looking for in a partner........
[21:39] <{sonja}JP> i can understand that Qryz
[21:39] <{sonja}JP> oooops.....partner was not a good word there
[21:39] <bella`> but, sonja, if you had to forgo love or the d/s dynamic, which would you forgo?
[21:40] <min`> in the future we plan on a poly household, i am not one bit worried that it will interfere with the love between Mark and i
[21:40] <raven^Ron> I would forgo the love bella...
[21:40] <{sonja}JP> ohhhh - ouch bella......i am not sure if i can answer that
[21:40] <raven^Ron> but then again..there are many different levels of love..<s>
[21:40] * Eric^ has had a d/s and s/m relationship without love
[21:40] * arella smiles softly
[21:40] <bella`> see? i have been in love relationships without the D/s...and i was unfulfilled.
[21:40] <bella`> i have been in a D/s relationship without love - and was.
[21:40] <{sonja}JP> same here.....i was quite frustrated
[21:40] <raven^Ron> I am, however, most fulfilled with both in the relationship..love and d/s..
[21:41] * {sonja}JP is now confused......
[21:41] <raven^Ron> it comes down to there are many different people in the world sonja, who need/want different things..
[21:41] <{sonja}JP> did not expect such thought processes tonight
[21:41] <raven^Ron> some need the love in the d/s..some do not..some want just the d/s..some want both..
[21:41] <star{M}> for me, i need both ...
[21:42] <raven^Ron> kind of like..some like chocohlate ice cream..some want vanilla..others like the two mixed
[21:42] <Qryz> hmmmm....but if you had to choose....jeepers what a question!
[21:42] <{sonja}JP> lol......yep
[21:42] <raven^Ron> yeah..that's a tough question..
[21:42] <simoriah> For me, the d/s could walk tomorrow.  
[21:42] <destinee> really too deep for me..i am off to bed..thanks E/everyone
[21:42] <bella`> i would need to feel loved.  But, i think i could maintain a D/s relationship without that being the source for it.
[21:42] <Eric^> on the other hand, I do love Kristy
[21:42] <raven^Ron> but..having had both..d/s with love..d/s without..I would go without..
[21:42] <min`> i can't seperate the two right now because i can't see myself without Mark so i can't answer
[21:42] <raven^Ron> I would go without the love...didn't finish the sentence..sorry
[21:43] <raven^Ron> I do have to agree that d/s is easier without the love..the lines are clearer..the boundaries are alot clearer...
[21:43] <simoriah> That is with the assumption that I would remain with Ror.
[21:43] <bella`> yes raven.
[21:43] <Qryz> i'm not sure....trying to imagine each...think love is soooo important i'd have to forego d/s...but ouch!
[21:43] <raven^Ron> but, the love, for me, adds a whole different depth..
[21:43] <{sonja}JP> yanno.....what about one-sided?
[21:43] <simoriah> I'm not with him because he's a dom though.  I'm with him because he's Ror.
[21:43] <bella`> *smiles*...simi, i was thinking in the sense of just one's self.  Not the current partner...
[21:43] <star{M}> Master says definitely keep the love :)
[21:43] <raven^Ron> like min, I can submit more completely with the love..I don't hold back because I don't feel like I have to be "on" all the time..
[21:43] <arella> one person in love, the other not sonja?
[21:44] * raven^Ron can relax more
[21:44] <simoriah> Yeah, I guessed that, which is why I qualified what I said.
[21:44] <{sonja}JP> when Master and i started D/s.......He had never "said" He loved me.......but i loved Him......but i always FELT loved and that was enough.....His admitting that He loved me was really just a bonus.......
[21:44] <Eric^> I can afford to have d/s relationships without love <grins> cause my primary relationship is love based
[21:44] <{sonja}JP> that is different Eric.....(imo)
[21:44] <simoriah> But being in a very LTR, and a 24/7 live-in relationship, I can't see much beyond that which is my reality.
[21:45] <Qryz> yup...I'm with Eric^ (eep!) as long as you're loved somewhere....the rest can be ... whatever
[21:45] * min` nods at raven^Ron, it is the security i have with Mark that gives me the ability to be the "complete" slave
[21:45] <bella`> true enough simi. *smile*
[21:45] <raven^Ron> Ron returns
[21:45] <raven^Ron> yes min..me too :))
[21:45] <simoriah> I've never, in my life, searched for a dominant.
[21:45] <bella`> For e, it is not the love that allows me to be completely his, it is the trust...and faith.
[21:46] <LAR^> What's the topic tonight, did not get the e-mail
[21:46] <bella`> For me even...*sigh*
[21:46] <raven^Ron> BDSM without love Lar..we are currently discussing our preferences for love in d/s relationships..
[21:46] <min`> simoriah i can't separate it either, my reality is my life, i'm lucky enough to have both
[21:46] * Eric^ grins at Qryz, is that eep cause you agreed with me?
[21:46] * simoriah smiles at min.
[21:46] * Qryz grins at Eric^ - yup an eep of agreement!
[21:47] <Eric^> lol, okey dokey
[21:47] <arella> Lar bdsm without love
[21:47] <arella> ack.. I'm behind a few lines.. sorry..
[21:47] <raven^Ron> no problem arella :)
[21:48] <raven^Ron> Ron: Other than to say that I think it could theoretically exist in a long term relationship, for me it would not be satisfying to have d/s without love
[21:48] <min`> ditto raven^Ron
[21:49] <LAR^> r we talking about "is it possible?" or "how it works" ?
[21:49] <min`> but i'd work my little ass of to submit to someone else for mark, to please Mark so Mark would be pleased with me
[21:49] <raven^Ron> right now Lar..it looks like we're focusing on could it be possible..and how do you personally feel about it...
[21:49] <raven^Ron> me too min
[21:50] <raven^Ron> is it possible for you...d/s without love I mean
[21:50] <LAR^elle> i gotta follow the convention already set :)
[21:50] <Eric^> oh, back to the complications... manipulation and coercion become much easier when an emotion like love is introduced into the mix, don't you think?
[21:51] <simoriah> Absolutely
[21:51] <min`> yes
[21:51] <simoriah> However, Eric..
[21:51] <raven^Ron> yes it does Eric..partly beacuse what we believe a love based relationship is supposed to be conflicts with the d/s boundaries..
[21:51] <simoriah> I am also aware that I have the ability to effect the degree of *some* activities, and therefore the choice not to do so is a very conscious one
[21:51] <LAR^elle> i think that one must define what kind of "love" beforehand (unless it already has been?)
[21:51] <raven^Ron> Ron: yes, even if it's not consciously done Eric
[21:52] <raven^Ron> romantic love at this point LAR^elle :)
[21:52] <Eric^> we're talking romantic let's get married and live together love LAR
[21:52] <Eric^> sim, you are a special gal
[21:52] <LAR^elle> (it is elle at the keys)
[21:52] <simoriah> Nah, I'm just a pain in the ass :)
[21:52] <Eric^> no, that's my job
[21:53] <LAR^elle> ok..romantic love...i definately think it is possible to have such relationships.
[21:53] <raven^Ron> LOL Eric
[21:53] <Eric^> okay, I'll just call you guys L/e
[21:53] <Eric^> makes it easier
[21:53] <Eric^> <g>
[21:53] <star{M}> i personally see less manipulation, more trust and honesty in our relationship
[21:53] <raven^Ron> Ron: you think it's possibly elle..do you find it more satisfying that way?
[21:53] * simoriah makes a mental note to tell Eric about her hideous scene last night
[21:53] <simoriah> <later> that is
[21:53] <LAR^elle> it depends, Ron, on what i am looking for.
[21:54] <raven^Ron> I think as far as manipulation and such goes, it depends on the people involved..how aware they are of that possibility and thus, whether or not they are actively striving to prevent it..
[21:54] <Eric^> I'm not saying you can't have a love based d/s relationship without manipulation and coercion. Just saying the potential for it is higher
[21:54] <LAR^elle> i, personally, would not look for a single, lifetime relationship of bdsm w/o a romantic love.
[21:54] <raven^Ron> I agree elle! :)
[21:54] <bella`> it is easier to fall into patterns of passive aggressive manipulation with love involved. imo
[21:55] * star{M} hands bella the crowbar... wb bella
[21:55] <min`> Mark has very strong convictions in what he expects from me, and i know as a fact that because he loves me he will not waiver on them, i must fulfill his expectations. i cannot weasel my way out of something with the "but i love you honeybunny stuff"
[21:55] <LAR^elle> i would, however, seek to create bdsm relationships with others that do not involve romantic love.
[21:55] <raven^Ron> the i love you honeybunny stuff doesn't work for me either min...
[21:55] <LAR^elle> and i have.
[21:55] <{sonja}JP> me either......
[21:55] * min` giggles
[21:55] <raven^Ron> Ron: basically beacuse if you call me honeybunny I *KNOW* somethings up
[21:55] <raven^Ron> raven giggles
[21:55] * arella giggles
[21:55] * Qryz is quite entertained by the entire 'but honey' conversation...coming from either of us!
[21:55] <arella> what about.. BratDom?
[21:56] <bella`> i bat my eyelashes and call Draco my 'big bad evil Master Dom' in a horribly cutesie voice...lol
[21:56] <raven^Ron> however, I could probably weasel my way out of stuff without using such terms of endearment...tone of voice, and such might do it...I haven't cosnciously tried to do it though...
[21:56] <raven^Ron> LOLOL bella
[21:56] <star{M}> i have no other bdsm relationships and will not as long as i am married and am quite fulfilled :)
[21:56] * {sonja}JP wonders what would happen if she called M "honeybunny"
[21:56] <raven^Ron> bratdom is cute arella..besides, he likes it.. LOLOLOLOLOL
[21:56] <min`> and believe me i have tried, but Mark is firm enough to know the difference
[21:56] <raven^Ron> that's great star :)
[21:57] * LAR^elle is married to her Master... and we have bdsm relationships with others. for us, we are in the situation of
[21:57] <LAR^elle> we know who we come home to
[21:57] <Eric^> I find it much easier to deal with the manipulative behavior when the person I am dealing with is not someone I love, as well. Not that I can't with someone I do love, but, it's more difficult
[21:57] <raven^Ron> that's great elle :))
[21:57] <min`> the rules have never changed, we are growing together and will continue to, but the basic foundation is there
[21:57] <raven^Ron> how so Eric?
[21:57] * Qryz grins.....denzel washington's wife said the same thing, when oprah asked her about all those women wanting denzel...she said, 'yup, but he always comes home to me!'
[21:57] <LAR^elle> and since we do not have those outside relationships with romantic love...
[21:57] <raven^Ron> LOL Qryz
[21:58] * simoriah dashes downstairs for another cuppa tea
[21:58] <LAR^elle> we dont have many issues as far as emotional, between us.
[21:59] <raven^Ron> Ron: sounds like that would work elle :)
[21:59] <raven^Ron> What do you think the goals are of a relationship (d/s or m/s) that does not include romantic love?
[21:59] <raven^Ron> Ron: have a clean house..<lol> anyway...
[21:59] <Eric^> r/R because when I have to confront them over the behavior there isn't a concern, on either my part, or hers, about whether I love them, or any of that
[22:00] <Eric^> it doesn't get in the way
[22:00] <LAR^elle> play, training, experience..i think those would be the main reasons
[22:00] <raven^Ron> makes sense to me Eric
[22:00] <raven^Ron> what about service elle?
[22:00] <{sonja}JP> it doesnt have to get in the way even if it is there Eric
[22:00] <bella`> none of the 'well, if he loved me he would........' fill in the neurotic blank. *smiles*
[22:01] <LAR^elle> sorry, raven, i was lumping service into training...but i guess i should have separated.r
[22:01] <raven^Ron> no problem elle :)
[22:01] <bella`> R/r...completion.  For those that feel a need to be owned - love is not a necessity.  
[22:01] <LAR^elle> (you'll have to excuse my typos...long nails on a laptop keyboard)
[22:02] <raven^Ron> makes sense bella
[22:02] <raven^Ron> Ron agrees
[22:02] <raven^Ron> (with all listed)
[22:02] <raven^Ron> raven giggles..my typing sucks tonight..
[22:02] <bella`> and for the owners, the need to control someone at that level...and the desire to mold them...
[22:02] <raven^Ron> So, where does the satisfaction come in from a relationship that does not include love? just self satisfaction?
[22:02] <LAR^elle> however, i think that serivce relationships without romantic love developing would be difficult.
[22:02] * Eric^ ownership, to me, implies love.
[22:02] <raven^Ron> how so elle?
[22:02] <raven^Ron> how so Eric?
[22:03] <Qryz> really Eric^ - you softy romantic!
[22:03] <raven^Ron> Ron: I can't imagine where the satisfaction could come in..that's not part of my makeup
[22:03] <Eric^> why thanks Qryz
[22:03] <raven^Ron> I can imagine it...but it isn't enough for me..
[22:03] <Eric^> I distinguish ownership from service
[22:03] <{sonja}JP> you have to love someone to want to own her?
[22:03] <raven^Ron> LOL Qryz
[22:03] <star{M}> what i see it comes down to is what you and your significant other are comfortable with and agree on:)
[22:03] <raven^Ron> Ron: I would have to love someone to want to own her, yes sonja..in fact I do
[22:03] * Qryz is going to faint if the dogs fart any more
[22:03] <Eric^> I wouldn't bother to own someone I didn't love. service relationship, sure
[22:03] * {sonja}JP agrees
[22:04] <raven^Ron> yes star..that's what it comes down to...but it's still nice to discuss different things :)
[22:04] <LAR^elle> self satisfaction would be one - a relationship without romantic love has other goals (obviously)
[22:04] <Eric^> hey, I care a lot about my cars, and they are only worth $20K and I only own them for a few years
[22:04] <star{M}> it sure is :)
[22:04] <LAR^elle> as for the service relationships being difficult...
[22:04] <raven^Ron> raven smiles at star
[22:04] * {sonja}JP thinks being owned is a step above (inclusive with) being loved
[22:04] <raven^Ron> how so sonja?
[22:04] <star{M}> it makes you realize how precious your relationship really is :)
[22:04] <Qryz> hmmm...will this lead to a discussion of ownership vs marriage and the differences therein?
[22:04] <Eric^> a service relationship implies limits and boundaries to the sort of relationship it is, I do not own ALL of the person in a service relationship.
[22:04] <raven^Ron> possibly Qryz.
[22:05] * arella tilts her head
[22:05] <Eric^> in an ownership relationship I do. And why would I want all of the person if I didn't love them?
[22:05] <Qryz> cool...we were just discussing that today!
[22:05] <{sonja}JP> love is easy (relatively) - ownership implies responsibilities etc
[22:05] <raven^Ron> ahhh..ok I see what you're getting at ..a service relationship is strictly for the service..
[22:05] <raven^Ron> makes sense to me Eric :)
[22:05] <min`> {sonja}JP i am owned
[22:05] <bella`> a service relationship is an 'employee' with a different compensation package.
[22:05] * arella laughs
[22:05] <raven^Ron> LOL bella..I like that!!
[22:05] <{sonja}JP> lol
[22:05] <LAR^elle> if you are talking about a submissive who is...at the core, very service oriented...it is difficult for them to maintain an emotional distance from their Master. they *Have* to have some type of emotional connection, i believe, in order to serve well and *really* know their Master.
[22:05] <raven^Ron> are medical and dental included bella?
[22:05] * min` giggles
[22:05] <arella> I .. what raven said bella :)
[22:06] <arella> that doesn't mean it's romantic love though L/e
[22:06] <bella`> lol...guess that depends on the employer...*grin*
[22:06] <min`> gotta have medical and dental 
[22:06] <raven^Ron> not neccessarily elle...some Masters who want service based relationships, don't want the sub to learn their inner emotions and thoughts..just want them to be able to do things the way the master wants them done..
[22:06] <bella`> you are speaking of empathy elle
[22:06] <raven^Ron> LOL min..I know I need medical..<giggle>
[22:07] <min`> but your "special' raven :)
[22:07] * Eric^ has knives and needles, so we're all set min, I can take care of whatever the problem is, I'll even buy an exam table (I'm too generous sometimes)
[22:07] <LAR^elle> true, raven. but that does not mean that the submissive can help but develop those emotions.
[22:07] <raven^Ron> am not special min..I'm...just little ole me..
[22:07] <bella`> Flagg even HAS the table...lol
[22:08] <min`> raven same thing isn't it?
[22:08] <raven^Ron> I believe that a level of love will develop in any long term relationship, but not neccessarily romantic love as I define it, elle :)
[22:08] <raven^Ron> brb for real now..
[22:08] <raven^Ron> no min it ain't...
[22:08] <bella`> does a good executive asst 'love' her employer?
[22:08] <min`> Eric^ is that an invitation? cause it sounds very tempting ;)
[22:08] <LAR^elle> it has been, my experience, that those subs who enter into "purely" servie oriented or otherwise bdsm relationships, where romantic love developing was a "no-no", they end up having bad break ups because they DID develop it anyway.
[22:08] <arella> no.. but she might care for them/thier wellbeing and such
[22:09] <Eric^> sure, I love cutting people, can't be far from there to being a surgeon, now can it?
[22:09] * simoriah cracks up
[22:09] * star{M} stays far from Eric
[22:09] <min`> Eric^ as long as i scare in pretty designs i'm happy
[22:09] <bella`> i can burn water, does that mean i am close to being a chef???  cool!!!!
[22:09] * Ron^raven looks at Eric^ and shudders....No...not too far I guess....LOL
[22:10] * arella laughs.. uhmmmmmm.. well.. uhmmm.. (wonders if NO is a good answer in this case for Eric)
[22:10] <LAR^elle> surely, we can say, from a logical standpoint that it IS possible to have service relationships, in bdsm, that would not have romantic love...
[22:10] <Eric^> so, for me anyhow, love is necessary to ownership, as opposed to it being necessary for service
[22:10] <LAR^elle> but that is the thing about humans
[22:10] <LAR^elle> we're not logical
[22:10] <Eric^> lol@arella and star
[22:10] <Eric^> I'm a nice guy, really
[22:10] <LAR^elle> and most esp....our emotions hardly follow logic (most of the time)
[22:10] <{sonja}JP> lying is not nice Eric
[22:10] * min` laffs about the hickey she has on her ass from the jacizzi drain this weekend
[22:10] * arella knows your nice Eric^.. but.. it's fun to torment you
[22:10] * Eric^ is not lying, I will be very nice to you, the whole time I'm carving designs on you
[22:10] * simoriah drools
[22:11] * Ron^raven nods....I have seen those too....where a relationship develops into morethanit was originally intended to be....not a good ending
[22:11] <bella`> elle, that does happen, true.  It has with Draco and myself.  However, that is where accountability comes in.  
[22:11] <simoriah> I have a whole "side of sim" that I'd love to have celtic patterns cut into, Eric ;)
[22:11] <LAR^elle> and on that, i agree, bella
[22:11] <Eric^> is that like a side of beef?
[22:12] * simoriah grins and nods
[22:12] <arella> but that gennerally happens when people are not compleatly honest with each other.. when one says they can handle a relationship without love, and can not..
[22:12] <Eric^> can I hang you in my freezer when I'm done?
[22:12] * simoriah is falling in love
[22:12] <bella`> or not completely honest with themselves
[22:12] <min`> Eric^ you can play Quincy on me ;)
[22:12] <LAR^elle> at the point that a romantic love does develop....both persons involved must take responsiblity to recognize it and make decisions about their relationship with regard to the new developments
[22:12] <Eric^> woohoo
[22:12] <simoriah> I have never been able to choose who I fell in love with.  
[22:12] <bella`> exactly elle.  
[22:13] <simoriah> Conversely, I have not been able to choose NOT to fall in love either
[22:13] * bella` falls in love all the time..with people, ideas, foods...lol
[22:13] <min`> i really would like to know what my liver looks like, i heard i can live without part of it
[22:13] <Qryz> I don't think people, especially women, can serve without falling in love
[22:13] <raven^Ron> even better than that min, from what I understand the liver can regenerate
[22:13] <Qryz> liver is very pretty, especially surrounded by buttercup yellow fat
[22:13] <arella> I didn't mean it to say you can choose who you fall in love with simi.. just.. I'm not sure
[22:13] <star{M}> i agree, Qryz
[22:13] <Eric^> I have only fallen in love twice in my life, although I have hard a large number of relationships, ranging from 1 night to ten years. love is unusual for me
[22:13] <bella`> i love many people, and many things...but, it is how that love is handled that makes the difference.
[22:14] <simoriah> It is for me too, Eric, but I've still not had control over when it occurred.
[22:14] * raven^Ron thinks of the kid in children's who got a liver transplant..one lobe of daddy's liver...and daddy's liver was back to original size in a month..the daughters was growing the "lobes" it needed..
[22:14] <arella> I'll brb
[22:14] * bella` <---- a hippie love childe....lol
[22:14] <Eric^> sim was just volunteering to let me carve designs on a "side of sim" and then hang it in my freezer
[22:15] <LAR^elle> Qyrz, i have to agree with you...that service relationships almost always develop into romantic ones or end because of it.
[22:15] <LAR^elle> sorry for the name misspelling
[22:15] <raven^Ron> not having known many service based relationships, I can't say either way elle..
[22:15] <min`> i was a slave to my job for 10 years, i loved my job but not my boss
[22:15] <bella`> It is when you want your Dom to become your husband that the problems occur.  Not from the love, but from the change in expectations.
[22:15] <star{M}> It was nice seeing you all again, but i must be off now. hugs to all and goodnight :)
[22:15] <raven^Ron> but the few I have heard of elle, did not end beacuse of the presence or absence of love..
[22:15] <mizu> ok?
[22:15] <raven^Ron> be well star HUGS
[22:16] <Eric^> <smiles> oh, I thought you were under the impression she was a dom, forgive me if you weren't
[22:16] <min`> bella` Mark and i are getting married for legality sake, and to satisfy the parents, it better not interfere in what we have now
[22:16] <mizu> nope,forgot i had somethng turned on 
[22:16] <LAR^elle> well, i think it is difficult to relate "work" relationships to "bdsm" relationships....in that you view each differently.
[22:16] <simoriah> We're getting married because.... well because ....
[22:17] * min` smiles at simoriah
[22:17] <bella`> but that is different, min and simi...i am talking of pure D/s dynamics where the sub decides she wants to be his wife more.
[22:17] <bella`> woohoo!!!!
[22:17] <simoriah> Because he asked me, I accepted, and the rings are REALLY nice.
[22:17] <bella`> lol simi!!!!!!!!
[22:18] <raven^Ron> congrats simi! :)
[22:18] <simoriah> and after what will be 6 years.... what the hell, eh?
[22:18] <bella`> you just want the presents simi....confess!!...*smiles*
[22:18] <min`> bella` true i'm just saying i don't need a legal paper to prove my love, it is done around the clock
[22:18] <simoriah> I get the presents already :)
[22:19] <min`> oooh i want the presents, i forgot all about that part
[22:19] <bella`> right.  But, in my relationship with Draco, he HAS a wife...and he owns me.  If i want to BE his wife, i am SOL...*smiles*...
[22:19] <raven^Ron> ok..can anyone think of anything else..or shall we end it here? [21:05] * raven^Ron says Hello and welcome to #Leather_and_Roses' weekly discussions on BDSM topics. I hope you enjoy it. The following rules apply for all present.
[21:05] <raven^Ron> You must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave. Legal age being 18 or 21 depending on your location, if you are thought to be younger, you will be asked your age. If you are found to be younger, you will be kick/banned.
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[21:05] <raven^Ron> Please try to stay on topic and discuss one thread at a time. If the discussion gets overly fast (or overly emotional, or someone requests a break), I will call a break. This is so everyone can take a few moments to relax, and get their thoughts in order before continuing.
[21:06] <raven^Ron> If it erodes into a semantics argument, and those who are disagreeing can not agree to disagree, I will close the discussion for the night. We are here to discuss and learn from one anther, not fight with one another.
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[21:06] <raven^Ron> I hope you enjoy tonight's discussion, the topic is BDSM without Love
[21:06] <raven^Ron> lets start with..do you think love is neccesary to BDSM?
[21:07] <raven^Ron> Ron: In my relationship, yes
[21:07] * {sonja}JP thinks it is neccessary for her.....
[21:07] <arella> not in all relationships
[21:07] * min` requests a definition of BDSM
[21:07] <Eric^> can we distinguish between bdsm (which is extremely general) and d/s
[21:07] <Amax> I wouldn't think it would be required, but respect is...
[21:08] <raven^Ron> I don't see love as neccessary to every relationship under bdsm...
[21:08] <raven^Ron> sure Eric..how do we distinguish between them?
[21:08] <raven^Ron> I agree Amax..respect is neccessary
[21:08] <{sonja}JP> and if we distinguish between those.....do we take out M/s also?.......i would....
[21:09] <raven^Ron> yes sonja...
[21:09] <Eric^> well, bdsm is quite general, it covers a lot of ground, d/s is more focused on relationships between two people
[21:09] <raven^Ron> true Eric..least I agree with that..
[21:10] <min`> it's my understanding that BDSM are the tools in a D/s or M/s relationship
[21:10] <Eric^> so, I have bdsm interaction and relationships that have no love in them at all. I have one fairly consistent scene partner who is just a good friend
[21:10] <raven^Ron> Ron: BDSM is a very general topic, covering everything from play partners to m/s relationships, and I don't think you need to be in love with your play partner..
[21:10] <raven^Ron> tools min?
[21:10] <Eric^> but in d/s we are talking about a specific type of relationship
[21:10] <min`> tolls such as bondage or to dominate etc
[21:10] <raven^Ron> yes..dominant/submissive relationships..which leaves out m/s relationships..we can discuss each seperately if people prefer..
[21:10] <raven^Ron> ahhhhh...I understand min
[21:11] <min`> so if you are just practicing BDSM no love is necessary
[21:11] <bella`> i agree min - love is not required to 'play'
[21:11] <Eric^> min, bdsm contains d/s, at least I think it does. bdsm is much more than just d/s
[21:11] <raven^Ron> isn't d/s part of bdsm..
[21:11] <raven^Ron> ?
[21:12] <Eric^> yes, that's what I mean
[21:12] * arella tries to follow along
[21:12] <Eric^> and I see no reason at all why I can't top someone in an s/m scene without loving them
[21:12] * Amax smiles to arella
[21:12] <raven^Ron> any interaction between two people can be called a relationship..from acquaintences to close friends..to lovers..to partners ...there are many kinds of relationships..
[21:12] <bella`> personally, i believe we should have 2 acronyms...bdsm and dsms
[21:12] <{sonja}JP> i think the two are separate...
[21:12] <Eric^> I think that's fairly obvious though. I think the real issue is the relationships
[21:13] <bella`> the first for types of play, the second for types of relationships.
[21:13] <min`> d/s is a part of it yes as when you are playing someone is submitting, someone dominating etc which i think is separate from a D/s relationship
[21:13] <raven^Ron> makes sense bella...
[21:13] * min` thinks bella` is right
[21:13] <raven^Ron> Interestling m/s is left out of bdsm..
[21:13] <raven^Ron> interestingly even
[21:14] <bella`> for bondage and domination and sadism and masochism - love is not a necessity
[21:14] <raven^Ron> in any relationship, within the borders of bdsm, is love a neccessity?
[21:14] <Eric^> I don't see a difference between d/s and m/s
[21:14] <raven^Ron> why not bella?
[21:14] * {sonja}JP thinks that it sounds like we are asking if casual sex is possible without love, and is a ltr possible without love.....
[21:14] <raven^Ron> ltr?
[21:14] <Eric^> long term relationship
[21:14] <raven^Ron> actually sonja..that's what I'm asking
[21:14] <{sonja}JP> long term relationship
[21:14] <raven^Ron> thanks Eric :)
[21:14] <raven^Ron> thanks sonja :)
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> lol
[21:15] <arella> what kind of love?
[21:15] <Eric^> I think a long term service oriented relationship IS possible without love
[21:15] <min`> actually there are many ltr's that are not based on love
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> oohhhhhh.........there ya go arella.....asking the difficult questions
[21:15] <Eric^> I think it is rare though
[21:15] <raven^Ron> is the bdsm equivalent of casual sex (guess it could be called casual scening) capable of existing without love?
[21:15] <bella`> you can 'play' with someone without love.  I have had things 'shown' on me from people that i barely knew in a classroom situation.
[21:15] <raven^Ron> lets start with romantic love arella :)
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> i think so.....
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> in answer to raven.
[21:15] <arella> okay.. no.. I don't think romantic love is a requirement
[21:15] <raven^Ron> I agree with you Eric..it is possible, but rare..I think there has to be some kind of love there for an LTR
[21:16] <raven^Ron> I agree bella..
[21:16] <Eric^> sure it is r/R. I have, as I said, a close friend that I scene with fairly regularly. We are simply friends
[21:16] <raven^Ron> Ron: I agree that for a long term relationship there has to be some kind of love..even if it's the love between friends..
[21:17] <star{M}> i can see how you can act out a scene without love...kinda like roleplaying. but there still has to be a level of caring and respect, i think.
[21:17] <min`> Eric^ don't you love your close friend in some way?
[21:17] * {sonja}JP thinks that would be a chicken/egg argument
[21:17] <raven^Ron> Could you scene with, or have a relationship with, someone you had no "love" feelings for?
[21:17] <arella> no
[21:17] <{sonja}JP> short term........yes
[21:17] <min`> raven^Ron i could, if i was told to by Mark
[21:17] <Eric^> min.... hmmmm, I don't know. We are friends, we are attracted to each other, on an s/m level. but love, I don't think so
[21:17] <raven^Ron> actualy, star, for me..I prefer to have some kind of emotional attachment before I'll play..at the very least, caring and respect..
[21:17] <bella`> I also believe that you can have D/s or M/s without love.  It is a level of commitment.  Love is a separate complication/bonus *smile*
[21:18] <raven^Ron> I agree that it is possible bella.. :)
[21:18] <raven^Ron> so what is the attraction in these areas, where love is not needed?
[21:18] <Eric^> I have also done single scenes with people that I barely knew, and never scened with again
[21:18] <min`> Eric^ i'm not speaking of romantic love merely friendship love
[21:18] <simoriah> I can and have scened with people I had no love for
[21:18] <raven^Ron> Ron: Eric..you're a slut!! <just kidding> that's ok..I'm a slut too
[21:18] <raven^Ron> raven giggles..no shit ROn
[21:19] * arella tilts her head.. how can you trust someone you know has no caring feelings for you at all?
[21:19] * Eric^ grins, thanks Ron. I am a slut, and proud of it
[21:19] <raven^Ron> good question arella...I don't think everyone can do that...but I think it can be done..
[21:19] <raven^Ron> I think it would depend on what the people are wanting to get out of it..casual scening, the whole point is the thrill for those involved..no strings attached...
[21:19] <star{M}> Oh i am not saying I could, raven! lol! i was just saying i could see it. being in an 18 year marriage with my Master, love will ALWAYS be there :)
[21:19] <raven^Ron> Ron: It could be just lust
[21:19] <bella`> i can trust them to know how to wield a whip..and how not to mark me. Caring is unnecessary in the skill.
[21:19] * arella nods
[21:19] <min`> i'll scene with someone else where no love is involved if Mark wants me too, i trust mark and i trust that he will be certain that i am safe
[21:19] <raven^Ron> I know star :)
[21:20] <raven^Ron> Ron: Congratulations star, I did not realize it was 18 years..
[21:20] <raven^Ron> Congrats star that's wonderful!! :)))
[21:20] <arella> yes.. but isn't that an extension of knowing Mark cares for you min?
[21:20] <bella`> i view it as their qualifications..just like i would check a doctor's before operating on me, but i don't need my doctor to 'love' me
[21:20] * star{M} blushes and smiles
[21:21] <min`> arella yes you could say that love is involved but not directly
[21:21] <Eric^> so, can you live a d/s relationship in a 24/7 scenario without love
[21:21] <raven^Ron> I know I am perfectly capable of sex for sex's sake...or scneing just for the play..without love...However, I do tend to prefer it to be with someone I at least am friendly with..I'm not sure I could do either with a complete stranger...
[21:21] <bella`> it depends on whether or not you need love to be happy.  Some don't - the dynamic is enough for them.
[21:21] <raven^Ron> I think you can Eric...personally, it leaves something out..but that's for me...to others, it's perfectly fulfilling..
[21:22] <min`> before Mark i have scened without love mostly because of a craving for it
[21:22] <Eric^> r/R I have auctioned myself at scene events more than once, it's actually kinda fun
[21:22] <raven^Ron> Is it Eric? I've wondered about it.but am a chickenshit
[21:22] * simoriah agrees with Eric
[21:22] <star{M}> a d/s 24/7 without love? i personally dont see how
[21:23] <Eric^> why not star?
[21:23] <raven^Ron> it would have to be a service based relationship..with respect...
[21:23] <bella`> it depends on whether you submit to dominance, or to love.
[21:23] <raven^Ron> but..wouldn't it eventually grow to include some level of love or caring?
[21:23] <min`> good point bella`
[21:23] <{sonja}JP> i cant imagine any 24/7 relationshipworking for very long without love
[21:24] <{sonja}JP> heck......many of them cant work WITH love
[21:24] <Eric^> it would have to include respect and such.
[21:24] <raven^Ron> many m/s ones do that sonja..
[21:24] <bella`> i surrendered to my owner long before i fell in love with him.
[21:24] <star{M}> the concept is just so foreign to me, Eric^
[21:24] <{sonja}JP> but then you fell in love......
[21:24] <{sonja}JP> the seeds were prolly there (my opinion)
[21:24] <bella`> sonja, it depends on how much one needs love to be happy.  If you need it, then 24/7 without it will end in 'divorce' eventually
[21:25] <{sonja}JP> umm.......yeah.....saw that one first-hand
[21:25] <{sonja}JP> :)
[21:25] <bella`> yes sonja, i did fall in love with him - and yup, same here, divorce court on Tuesday.  
[21:26] <min`> bella` is it being televised?
[21:26] <raven^Ron> Ron: sorry to hear that bella
[21:26] <Eric^> but it should be possible star. for example... how about soldiers in a combat unit, they are together 24/7, their sergeant has 24/7 power over them, an immense amount of power, yet he does not love them, except perhaps as a father loves his children
[21:26] <bella`> the seeds might have been there.  But, they were not the reason i submitted to him.
[21:26] <{sonja}JP> then there is a type of love Eric
[21:26] <Eric^> but it is not romantic relationship type love sonja
[21:26] <star{M}> ok, i can see that Eric... from that point of view
[21:27] <raven^Ron> Ron: Eric, you're right..people I have been in charge of I've cared a great deal for..even when I dind't neccessarily like them
[21:27] <simoriah> I don't have to love someone to submit to them but I must respect them
[21:27] * {sonja}JP agrees that one could start a D/s or M/s relationship without love......i just cant see it lasting without it
[21:27] <bella`> Or another example, my owner is going to send in my application to the Estate for training - i guarantee if i am accepted that i will be doing so without 'love' - much as i might respect Flagg et al.
[21:27] * Eric^ smiles, I was a sergeant in command of soldiers for a decade, including in combat. I exerted 24/7 power over them, but I did not love them
[21:27] <simoriah> In fact, I think it may be simpler and less complicated if love is absent
[21:27] <raven^Ron> it depends on what the people want out of it..if they want simply the service, then service doesn't need love
[21:27] <raven^Ron> Ron: I agree with sonja..
[21:27] <{sonja}JP> but in that bella, you are still submitting to Draco......not really Flagg......
[21:27] <raven^Ron> how so simi?
[21:28] <simoriah> There are less trappings
[21:28] <min`> maybe you loved your job Eric^?
[21:28] <raven^Ron> actually sonja, if she is with Flagg 24/7, she will submit to him..doesn;'t matter who gave the order...
[21:28] <Eric^> oh I did min
[21:28] <bella`> i agree simi....love complicates it.
[21:28] <raven^Ron> so a d/s or m/s relationship is too complicated with love? why?
[21:28] <bella`> exactly raven.  
[21:28] <{sonja}JP> right.....but the whole thing is that she is going b/c Draco told her tooo......
[21:28] <Eric^> not too complicated, but it does add a complication
[21:29] <{sonja}JP> so every order she follows is b/c He told her to.......does that make anysense?
[21:29] <min`> i have submitted in loveless relationships before, and not just one night thingy's either
[21:29] <raven^Ron> yes sonja, but once she's there, the orders will not be coming from Draco..but from Flagg..
[21:29] <raven^Ron> yes it makes sense sonja..
[21:30] <bella`> i would be there because Draco sent me.  I would submit to Flagg or Ken or Sir C because they are dominant over me.
[21:30] <raven^Ron> I've done it as well min, over time I came to care a great deal..but I learned, that for me, I like the love..
[21:30] * raven^Ron is a softy
[21:30] <simoriah> You're going to the Estate as well, bella?
[21:30] <arella> would you not be doing it to please Draco in the end bella`?
[21:30] <min`> raven^Ron orders from Flagg yes but bella`s mindset will still be focused for Draco
[21:30] <raven^Ron> true min..I can see it both ways
[21:30] <{sonja}JP> ty arella and min :) that is what i was trying to say
[21:30] <bella`> Once there, even knowing that Draco is aware of the training - i would be submitting to The Estate.
[21:30] * Amax nods to Qryz
[21:31] <raven^Ron> though, wouldn't bella's mindset be focused on pleasing Flagg, Soulhuntre, and SirC as well?
[21:31] * Eric^ were I ever to place Kristy in a training scenario, her submission would be to me, not the trainer. The trainer would be a tool I used to accomplish something with Kristy that I wished
[21:31] <min`> submitting to the rules and regulations perhaps bella` but Draco is applying, he is sending you etc
[21:31] <bella`> No, i would do my best not to fail Draco - however, i would be focused on the orders themselves
[21:31] <raven^Ron> I understand Eric
[21:31] <{sonja}JP> THANK YOU ERIC>...........that is it......the "tool" idea
[21:32] <fairys_ki> fairy has work...ty for the discussion..:) be well everyone..
[21:32] <raven^Ron> yw fairys_ki :)
[21:32] <bella`> and yes simi, Draco has said he will be sending my application in.
[21:32] <raven^Ron> so..we lost a thread..what are the complications caused in a relationship when love is present?
[21:32] <bella`> i would submit to the authority structure - love would be entirely unnecessary.  
[21:33] <raven^Ron> Ron: harder to separate emotions from rules, orders and structure...
[21:33] <raven^Ron> raven: True Ron
[21:33] <bella`> yes.  Draco has stated he is sometimes too easy on me BECAUSE he loves me.
[21:33] * Qryz was a much stricter Domme before falling in love
[21:33] <min`> why try to separate them if you have love?
[21:33] <raven^Ron> Ron: Oh Qryz you're just a softy <g>
[21:33] <Eric^> love introduces a complication, love implies that you wish to care for, protect, etc the one you love
[21:34] * {sonja}JP wonders why all that is so bad?
[21:34] <bella`> It is hard to risk 'ruining' the love relationship for the power dynamic.  
[21:34] <Eric^> yet, the d/s implies that you may do things which are hurtful, at least short term, for the sub
[21:34] <min`> but isn't a dominants place to protect the submissive?
[21:34] <raven^Ron> Ron: Because sometimes min you make a decision coldly and logically but when it comes time to act upon that decision, your heart starts screaming at you..no
[21:34] <raven^Ron> Isn't caring for and protecting part of a d/s relationship whether or not love is present Eric?
[21:34] <{sonja}JP> any worse than it does with your kids?
[21:34] * star{M} sees no complications thankyouverymuch :)
[21:34] <bella`> It depends on what you wish from your relationship.  
[21:34] <arella> wouldn't it also make a person strive towards doing better ie :I love so and so, and as such, I don't want to disapoint, (even more then ussual) and so I will do this or that. ?
[21:35] <raven^Ron> I think it can work both ways arella..
[21:35] <Eric^> but, the love may blind you to whether you are really doing so or not r/R
[21:35] <bella`> It is also easier to think 'well, he loves me, he would not want me to push myself with this cold'
[21:35] <Qryz> my problem is that if I look at a submissive, I see someone who is child-like in the need to have order/structure...when I look at my mate I see an adult who's goal, admittedly, is to please me, but still is an adult...
[21:35] <{sonja}JP> ok........lemme ask a question.......
[21:35] <arella> yes.. I can see that bella`..
[21:35] <bella`> when that is a matter of comfort, not health concern.
[21:35] <raven^Ron> it can be a drawback in that the love may blind the dominant to enforcing his rules..and/or allow the submissive to shrug things off that he/she normally wouldn't if the love wasn't there..the love making it possible for both to occur because it softens the reactions on both sides..
[21:36] <raven^Ron> however, for some, being in love with one's dominant can increase the desire to please..at the same time, it decreases the structure that many find so neccessary
[21:36] <min`> in my present state my love for Mark has helped intensify the our bond
[21:36] <raven^Ron> go ahead sonja..with your question
[21:36] <bella`> it confuses me sometimes..i have different expectations from a 'lover' than i do from an 'owner'
[21:37] <bella`> sometimes i fall on the wrong side of the fence.
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> i am wondering if there is a REASON to have a D/s relationship without love......it may be possible.....but why? - in the long term - 
[21:37] <min`> the deepr my love the stronger the submission, the more i can grow
[21:37] <raven^Ron> some people do not want or need love sonja..instead they want/need the structure of a d/s relationship, without the love...
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> what do you get out of a longterm relationship wihtout love
[21:38] * Qryz shoves blackrose out of the way to hug her honey
[21:38] <bella`> because some of us need to be dominated...we need to submit..we feel incomplete without it - it is more important than love.
[21:38] <raven^Ron> power exchange sonja?
[21:38] <Eric^> power, satisfaction, a job well done
[21:38] * Qryz could easily have a straight D/s non-love relationship with a beta sub...but only because I am filled with mizu as my alpha mate
[21:39] * {sonja}JP sees the domination as a "part" of what she is/was looking for in a partner........
[21:39] <{sonja}JP> i can understand that Qryz
[21:39] <{sonja}JP> oooops.....partner was not a good word there
[21:39] <bella`> but, sonja, if you had to forgo love or the d/s dynamic, which would you forgo?
[21:40] <min`> in the future we plan on a poly household, i am not one bit worried that it will interfere with the love between Mark and i
[21:40] <raven^Ron> I would forgo the love bella...
[21:40] <{sonja}JP> ohhhh - ouch bella......i am not sure if i can answer that
[21:40] <raven^Ron> but then again..there are many different levels of love..<s>
[21:40] * Eric^ has had a d/s and s/m relationship without love
[21:40] * arella smiles softly
[21:40] <bella`> see? i have been in love relationships without the D/s...and i was unfulfilled.
[21:40] <bella`> i have been in a D/s relationship without love - and was.
[21:40] <{sonja}JP> same here.....i was quite frustrated
[21:40] <raven^Ron> I am, however, most fulfilled with both in the relationship..love and d/s..
[21:41] * {sonja}JP is now confused......
[21:41] <raven^Ron> it comes down to there are many different people in the world sonja, who need/want different things..
[21:41] <{sonja}JP> did not expect such thought processes tonight
[21:41] <raven^Ron> some need the love in the d/s..some do not..some want just the d/s..some want both..
[21:41] <star{M}> for me, i need both ...
[21:42] <raven^Ron> kind of like..some like chocohlate ice cream..some want vanilla..others like the two mixed
[21:42] <Qryz> hmmmm....but if you had to choose....jeepers what a question!
[21:42] <{sonja}JP> lol......yep
[21:42] <raven^Ron> yeah..that's a tough question..
[21:42] <simoriah> For me, the d/s could walk tomorrow.  
[21:42] <destinee> really too deep for me..i am off to bed..thanks E/everyone
[21:42] <bella`> i would need to feel loved.  But, i think i could maintain a D/s relationship without that being the source for it.
[21:42] <Eric^> on the other hand, I do love Kristy
[21:42] <raven^Ron> but..having had both..d/s with love..d/s without..I would go without..
[21:42] <min`> i can't seperate the two right now because i can't see myself without Mark so i can't answer
[21:42] <raven^Ron> I would go without the love...didn't finish the sentence..sorry
[21:43] <raven^Ron> I do have to agree that d/s is easier without the love..the lines are clearer..the boundaries are alot clearer...
[21:43] <simoriah> That is with the assumption that I would remain with Ror.
[21:43] <bella`> yes raven.
[21:43] <Qryz> i'm not sure....trying to imagine each...think love is soooo important i'd have to forego d/s...but ouch!
[21:43] <raven^Ron> but, the love, for me, adds a whole different depth..
[21:43] <{sonja}JP> yanno.....what about one-sided?
[21:43] <simoriah> I'm not with him because he's a dom though.  I'm with him because he's Ror.
[21:43] <bella`> *smiles*...simi, i was thinking in the sense of just one's self.  Not the current partner...
[21:43] <star{M}> Master says definitely keep the love :)
[21:43] <raven^Ron> like min, I can submit more completely with the love..I don't hold back because I don't feel like I have to be "on" all the time..
[21:43] <arella> one person in love, the other not sonja?
[21:44] * raven^Ron can relax more
[21:44] <simoriah> Yeah, I guessed that, which is why I qualified what I said.
[21:44] <{sonja}JP> when Master and i started D/s.......He had never "said" He loved me.......but i loved Him......but i always FELT loved and that was enough.....His admitting that He loved me was really just a bonus.......
[21:44] <Eric^> I can afford to have d/s relationships without love <grins> cause my primary relationship is love based
[21:44] <{sonja}JP> that is different Eric.....(imo)
[21:44] <simoriah> But being in a very LTR, and a 24/7 live-in relationship, I can't see much beyond that which is my reality.
[21:45] <Qryz> yup...I'm with Eric^ (eep!) as long as you're loved somewhere....the rest can be ... whatever
[21:45] * min` nods at raven^Ron, it is the security i have with Mark that gives me the ability to be the "complete" slave
[21:45] <bella`> true enough simi. *smile*
[21:45] <raven^Ron> Ron returns
[21:45] <raven^Ron> yes min..me too :))
[21:45] <simoriah> I've never, in my life, searched for a dominant.
[21:45] <bella`> For e, it is not the love that allows me to be completely his, it is the trust...and faith.
[21:46] <LAR^> What's the topic tonight, did not get the e-mail
[21:46] <bella`> For me even...*sigh*
[21:46] <raven^Ron> BDSM without love Lar..we are currently discussing our preferences for love in d/s relationships..
[21:46] <min`> simoriah i can't separate it either, my reality is my life, i'm lucky enough to have both
[21:46] * Eric^ grins at Qryz, is that eep cause you agreed with me?
[21:46] * simoriah smiles at min.
[21:46] * Qryz grins at Eric^ - yup an eep of agreement!
[21:47] <Eric^> lol, okey dokey
[21:47] <arella> Lar bdsm without love
[21:47] <arella> ack.. I'm behind a few lines.. sorry..
[21:47] <raven^Ron> no problem arella :)
[21:48] <raven^Ron> Ron: Other than to say that I think it could theoretically exist in a long term relationship, for me it would not be satisfying to have d/s without love
[21:48] <min`> ditto raven^Ron
[21:49] <LAR^> r we talking about "is it possible?" or "how it works" ?
[21:49] <min`> but i'd work my little ass of to submit to someone else for mark, to please Mark so Mark would be pleased with me
[21:49] <raven^Ron> right now Lar..it looks like we're focusing on could it be possible..and how do you personally feel about it...
[21:49] <raven^Ron> me too min
[21:50] <raven^Ron> is it possible for you...d/s without love I mean
[21:50] <LAR^elle> i gotta follow the convention already set :)
[21:50] <Eric^> oh, back to the complications... manipulation and coercion become much easier when an emotion like love is introduced into the mix, don't you think?
[21:51] <simoriah> Absolutely
[21:51] <min`> yes
[21:51] <simoriah> However, Eric..
[21:51] <raven^Ron> yes it does Eric..partly beacuse what we believe a love based relationship is supposed to be conflicts with the d/s boundaries..
[21:51] <simoriah> I am also aware that I have the ability to effect the degree of *some* activities, and therefore the choice not to do so is a very conscious one
[21:51] <LAR^elle> i think that one must define what kind of "love" beforehand (unless it already has been?)
[21:51] <raven^Ron> Ron: yes, even if it's not consciously done Eric
[21:52] <raven^Ron> romantic love at this point LAR^elle :)
[21:52] <Eric^> we're talking romantic let's get married and live together love LAR
[21:52] <Eric^> sim, you are a special gal
[21:52] <LAR^elle> (it is elle at the keys)
[21:52] <simoriah> Nah, I'm just a pain in the ass :)
[21:52] <Eric^> no, that's my job
[21:53] <LAR^elle> ok..romantic love...i definately think it is possible to have such relationships.
[21:53] <raven^Ron> LOL Eric
[21:53] <Eric^> okay, I'll just call you guys L/e
[21:53] <Eric^> makes it easier
[21:53] <Eric^> <g>
[21:53] <star{M}> i personally see less manipulation, more trust and honesty in our relationship
[21:53] <raven^Ron> Ron: you think it's possibly elle..do you find it more satisfying that way?
[21:53] * simoriah makes a mental note to tell Eric about her hideous scene last night
[21:53] <simoriah> <later> that is
[21:53] <LAR^elle> it depends, Ron, on what i am looking for.
[21:54] <raven^Ron> I think as far as manipulation and such goes, it depends on the people involved..how aware they are of that possibility and thus, whether or not they are actively striving to prevent it..
[21:54] <Eric^> I'm not saying you can't have a love based d/s relationship without manipulation and coercion. Just saying the potential for it is higher
[21:54] <LAR^elle> i, personally, would not look for a single, lifetime relationship of bdsm w/o a romantic love.
[21:54] <raven^Ron> I agree elle! :)
[21:54] <bella`> it is easier to fall into patterns of passive aggressive manipulation with love involved. imo
[21:55] * star{M} hands bella the crowbar... wb bella
[21:55] <min`> Mark has very strong convictions in what he expects from me, and i know as a fact that because he loves me he will not waiver on them, i must fulfill his expectations. i cannot weasel my way out of something with the "but i love you honeybunny stuff"
[21:55] <LAR^elle> i would, however, seek to create bdsm relationships with others that do not involve romantic love.
[21:55] <raven^Ron> the i love you honeybunny stuff doesn't work for me either min...
[21:55] <LAR^elle> and i have.
[21:55] <{sonja}JP> me either......
[21:55] * min` giggles
[21:55] <raven^Ron> Ron: basically beacuse if you call me honeybunny I *KNOW* somethings up
[21:55] <raven^Ron> raven giggles
[21:55] * arella giggles
[21:55] * Qryz is quite entertained by the entire 'but honey' conversation...coming from either of us!
[21:55] <arella> what about.. BratDom?
[21:56] <bella`> i bat my eyelashes and call Draco my 'big bad evil Master Dom' in a horribly cutesie voice...lol
[21:56] <raven^Ron> however, I could probably weasel my way out of stuff without using such terms of endearment...tone of voice, and such might do it...I haven't cosnciously tried to do it though...
[21:56] <raven^Ron> LOLOL bella
[21:56] <star{M}> i have no other bdsm relationships and will not as long as i am married and am quite fulfilled :)
[21:56] * {sonja}JP wonders what would happen if she called M "honeybunny"
[21:56] <raven^Ron> bratdom is cute arella..besides, he likes it.. LOLOLOLOLOL
[21:56] <min`> and believe me i have tried, but Mark is firm enough to know the difference
[21:56] <raven^Ron> that's great star :)
[21:57] * LAR^elle is married to her Master... and we have bdsm relationships with others. for us, we are in the situation of
[21:57] <LAR^elle> we know who we come home to
[21:57] <Eric^> I find it much easier to deal with the manipulative behavior when the person I am dealing with is not someone I love, as well. Not that I can't with someone I do love, but, it's more difficult
[21:57] <raven^Ron> that's great elle :))
[21:57] <min`> the rules have never changed, we are growing together and will continue to, but the basic foundation is there
[21:57] <raven^Ron> how so Eric?
[21:57] * Qryz grins.....denzel washington's wife said the same thing, when oprah asked her about all those women wanting denzel...she said, 'yup, but he always comes home to me!'
[21:57] <LAR^elle> and since we do not have those outside relationships with romantic love...
[21:57] <raven^Ron> LOL Qryz
[21:58] * simoriah dashes downstairs for another cuppa tea
[21:58] <LAR^elle> we dont have many issues as far as emotional, between us.
[21:59] <raven^Ron> Ron: sounds like that would work elle :)
[21:59] <raven^Ron> What do you think the goals are of a relationship (d/s or m/s) that does not include romantic love?
[21:59] <raven^Ron> Ron: have a clean house..<lol> anyway...
[21:59] <Eric^> r/R because when I have to confront them over the behavior there isn't a concern, on either my part, or hers, about whether I love them, or any of that
[22:00] <Eric^> it doesn't get in the way
[22:00] <LAR^elle> play, training, experience..i think those would be the main reasons
[22:00] <raven^Ron> makes sense to me Eric
[22:00] <raven^Ron> what about service elle?
[22:00] <{sonja}JP> it doesnt have to get in the way even if it is there Eric
[22:00] <bella`> none of the 'well, if he loved me he would........' fill in the neurotic blank. *smiles*
[22:01] <LAR^elle> sorry, raven, i was lumping service into training...but i guess i should have separated.r
[22:01] <raven^Ron> no problem elle :)
[22:01] <bella`> R/r...completion.  For those that feel a need to be owned - love is not a necessity.  
[22:01] <LAR^elle> (you'll have to excuse my typos...long nails on a laptop keyboard)
[22:02] <raven^Ron> makes sense bella
[22:02] <raven^Ron> Ron agrees
[22:02] <raven^Ron> (with all listed)
[22:02] <raven^Ron> raven giggles..my typing sucks tonight..
[22:02] <bella`> and for the owners, the need to control someone at that level...and the desire to mold them...
[22:02] <raven^Ron> So, where does the satisfaction come in from a relationship that does not include love? just self satisfaction?
[22:02] <LAR^elle> however, i think that serivce relationships without romantic love developing would be difficult.
[22:02] * Eric^ ownership, to me, implies love.
[22:02] <raven^Ron> how so elle?
[22:02] <raven^Ron> how so Eric?
[22:03] <Qryz> really Eric^ - you softy romantic!
[22:03] <raven^Ron> Ron: I can't imagine where the satisfaction could come in..that's not part of my makeup
[22:03] <Eric^> why thanks Qryz
[22:03] <raven^Ron> I can imagine it...but it isn't enough for me..
[22:03] <Eric^> I distinguish ownership from service
[22:03] <{sonja}JP> you have to love someone to want to own her?
[22:03] <raven^Ron> LOL Qryz
[22:03] <star{M}> what i see it comes down to is what you and your significant other are comfortable with and agree on:)
[22:03] <raven^Ron> Ron: I would have to love someone to want to own her, yes sonja..in fact I do
[22:03] * Qryz is going to faint if the dogs fart any more
[22:03] <Eric^> I wouldn't bother to own someone I didn't love. service relationship, sure
[22:03] * {sonja}JP agrees
[22:04] <raven^Ron> yes star..that's what it comes down to...but it's still nice to discuss different things :)
[22:04] <LAR^elle> self satisfaction would be one - a relationship without romantic love has other goals (obviously)
[22:04] <Eric^> hey, I care a lot about my cars, and they are only worth $20K and I only own them for a few years
[22:04] <star{M}> it sure is :)
[22:04] <LAR^elle> as for the service relationships being difficult...
[22:04] <raven^Ron> raven smiles at star
[22:04] * {sonja}JP thinks being owned is a step above (inclusive with) being loved
[22:04] <raven^Ron> how so sonja?
[22:04] <star{M}> it makes you realize how precious your relationship really is :)
[22:04] <Qryz> hmmm...will this lead to a discussion of ownership vs marriage and the differences therein?
[22:04] <Eric^> a service relationship implies limits and boundaries to the sort of relationship it is, I do not own ALL of the person in a service relationship.
[22:04] <raven^Ron> possibly Qryz.
[22:05] * arella tilts her head
[22:05] <Eric^> in an ownership relationship I do. And why would I want all of the person if I didn't love them?
[22:05] <Qryz> cool...we were just discussing that today!
[22:05] <{sonja}JP> love is easy (relatively) - ownership implies responsibilities etc
[22:05] <raven^Ron> ahhh..ok I see what you're getting at ..a service relationship is strictly for the service..
[22:05] <raven^Ron> makes sense to me Eric :)
[22:05] <min`> {sonja}JP i am owned
[22:05] <bella`> a service relationship is an 'employee' with a different compensation package.
[22:05] * arella laughs
[22:05] <raven^Ron> LOL bella..I like that!!
[22:05] <{sonja}JP> lol
[22:05] <LAR^elle> if you are talking about a submissive who is...at the core, very service oriented...it is difficult for them to maintain an emotional distance from their Master. they *Have* to have some type of emotional connection, i believe, in order to serve well and *really* know their Master.
[22:05] <raven^Ron> are medical and dental included bella?
[22:05] * min` giggles
[22:05] <arella> I .. what raven said bella :)
[22:06] <arella> that doesn't mean it's romantic love though L/e
[22:06] <bella`> lol...guess that depends on the employer...*grin*
[22:06] <min`> gotta have medical and dental 
[22:06] <raven^Ron> not neccessarily elle...some Masters who want service based relationships, don't want the sub to learn their inner emotions and thoughts..just want them to be able to do things the way the master wants them done..
[22:06] <bella`> you are speaking of empathy elle
[22:06] <raven^Ron> LOL min..I know I need medical..<giggle>
[22:07] <min`> but your "special' raven :)
[22:07] * Eric^ has knives and needles, so we're all set min, I can take care of whatever the problem is, I'll even buy an exam table (I'm too generous sometimes)
[22:07] <LAR^elle> true, raven. but that does not mean that the submissive can help but develop those emotions.
[22:07] <raven^Ron> am not special min..I'm...just little ole me..
[22:07] <bella`> Flagg even HAS the table...lol
[22:08] <min`> raven same thing isn't it?
[22:08] <raven^Ron> I believe that a level of love will develop in any long term relationship, but not neccessarily romantic love as I define it, elle :)
[22:08] <raven^Ron> brb for real now..
[22:08] <raven^Ron> no min it ain't...
[22:08] <bella`> does a good executive asst 'love' her employer?
[22:08] <min`> Eric^ is that an invitation? cause it sounds very tempting ;)
[22:08] <LAR^elle> it has been, my experience, that those subs who enter into "purely" servie oriented or otherwise bdsm relationships, where romantic love developing was a "no-no", they end up having bad break ups because they DID develop it anyway.
[22:08] <arella> no.. but she might care for them/thier wellbeing and such
[22:09] <Eric^> sure, I love cutting people, can't be far from there to being a surgeon, now can it?
[22:09] * simoriah cracks up
[22:09] * star{M} stays far from Eric
[22:09] <min`> Eric^ as long as i scare in pretty designs i'm happy
[22:09] <bella`> i can burn water, does that mean i am close to being a chef???  cool!!!!
[22:09] * Ron^raven looks at Eric^ and shudders....No...not too far I guess....LOL
[22:10] * arella laughs.. uhmmmmmm.. well.. uhmmm.. (wonders if NO is a good answer in this case for Eric)
[22:10] <LAR^elle> surely, we can say, from a logical standpoint that it IS possible to have service relationships, in bdsm, that would not have romantic love...
[22:10] <Eric^> so, for me anyhow, love is necessary to ownership, as opposed to it being necessary for service
[22:10] <LAR^elle> but that is the thing about humans
[22:10] <LAR^elle> we're not logical
[22:10] <Eric^> lol@arella and star
[22:10] <Eric^> I'm a nice guy, really
[22:10] <LAR^elle> and most esp....our emotions hardly follow logic (most of the time)
[22:10] <{sonja}JP> lying is not nice Eric
[22:10] * min` laffs about the hickey she has on her ass from the jacizzi drain this weekend
[22:10] * arella knows your nice Eric^.. but.. it's fun to torment you
[22:10] * Eric^ is not lying, I will be very nice to you, the whole time I'm carving designs on you
[22:10] * simoriah drools
[22:11] * Ron^raven nods....I have seen those too....where a relationship develops into morethanit was originally intended to be....not a good ending
[22:11] <bella`> elle, that does happen, true.  It has with Draco and myself.  However, that is where accountability comes in.  
[22:11] <simoriah> I have a whole "side of sim" that I'd love to have celtic patterns cut into, Eric ;)
[22:11] <LAR^elle> and on that, i agree, bella
[22:11] <Eric^> is that like a side of beef?
[22:12] * simoriah grins and nods
[22:12] <arella> but that gennerally happens when people are not compleatly honest with each other.. when one says they can handle a relationship without love, and can not..
[22:12] <Eric^> can I hang you in my freezer when I'm done?
[22:12] * simoriah is falling in love
[22:12] <bella`> or not completely honest with themselves
[22:12] <min`> Eric^ you can play Quincy on me ;)
[22:12] <LAR^elle> at the point that a romantic love does develop....both persons involved must take responsiblity to recognize it and make decisions about their relationship with regard to the new developments
[22:12] <Eric^> woohoo
[22:12] <simoriah> I have never been able to choose who I fell in love with.  
[22:12] <bella`> exactly elle.  
[22:13] <simoriah> Conversely, I have not been able to choose NOT to fall in love either
[22:13] * bella` falls in love all the time..with people, ideas, foods...lol
[22:13] <min`> i really would like to know what my liver looks like, i heard i can live without part of it
[22:13] <Qryz> I don't think people, especially women, can serve without falling in love
[22:13] <raven^Ron> even better than that min, from what I understand the liver can regenerate
[22:13] <Qryz> liver is very pretty, especially surrounded by buttercup yellow fat
[22:13] <arella> I didn't mean it to say you can choose who you fall in love with simi.. just.. I'm not sure
[22:13] <star{M}> i agree, Qryz
[22:13] <Eric^> I have only fallen in love twice in my life, although I have hard a large number of relationships, ranging from 1 night to ten years. love is unusual for me
[22:13] <bella`> i love many people, and many things...but, it is how that love is handled that makes the difference.
[22:14] <simoriah> It is for me too, Eric, but I've still not had control over when it occurred.
[22:14] * raven^Ron thinks of the kid in children's who got a liver transplant..one lobe of daddy's liver...and daddy's liver was back to original size in a month..the daughters was growing the "lobes" it needed..
[22:14] <arella> I'll brb
[22:14] * bella` <---- a hippie love childe....lol
[22:14] <Eric^> sim was just volunteering to let me carve designs on a "side of sim" and then hang it in my freezer
[22:15] <LAR^elle> Qyrz, i have to agree with you...that service relationships almost always develop into romantic ones or end because of it.
[22:15] <LAR^elle> sorry for the name misspelling
[22:15] <raven^Ron> not having known many service based relationships, I can't say either way elle..
[22:15] <min`> i was a slave to my job for 10 years, i loved my job but not my boss
[22:15] <bella`> It is when you want your Dom to become your husband that the problems occur.  Not from the love, but from the change in expectations.
[22:15] <star{M}> It was nice seeing you all again, but i must be off now. hugs to all and goodnight :)
[22:15] <raven^Ron> but the few I have heard of elle, did not end beacuse of the presence or absence of love..
[22:15] <mizu> ok?
[22:15] <raven^Ron> be well star HUGS
[22:16] <Eric^> <smiles> oh, I thought you were under the impression she was a dom, forgive me if you weren't
[22:16] <min`> bella` Mark and i are getting married for legality sake, and to satisfy the parents, it better not interfere in what we have now
[22:16] <mizu> nope,forgot i had somethng turned on 
[22:16] <LAR^elle> well, i think it is difficult to relate "work" relationships to "bdsm" relationships....in that you view each differently.
[22:16] <simoriah> We're getting married because.... well because ....
[22:17] * min` smiles at simoriah
[22:17] <bella`> but that is different, min and simi...i am talking of pure D/s dynamics where the sub decides she wants to be his wife more.
[22:17] <bella`> woohoo!!!!
[22:17] <simoriah> Because he asked me, I accepted, and the rings are REALLY nice.
[22:17] <bella`> lol simi!!!!!!!!
[22:18] <raven^Ron> congrats simi! :)
[22:18] <simoriah> and after what will be 6 years.... what the hell, eh?
[22:18] <bella`> you just want the presents simi....confess!!...*smiles*
[22:18] <min`> bella` true i'm just saying i don't need a legal paper to prove my love, it is done around the clock
[22:18] <simoriah> I get the presents already :)
[22:19] <min`> oooh i want the presents, i forgot all about that part
[22:19] <bella`> right.  But, in my relationship with Draco, he HAS a wife...and he owns me.  If i want to BE his wife, i am SOL...*smiles*...
[22:19] <raven^Ron> ok..can anyone think of anything else..or shall we end it here?