Discussion 38: D/s Without S/m Part Two

To View Part I Of This discussion click HERE

Sun Oct. 29, 2000
[21:13] * raven{Az} says Hello and welcome to #Leather_and_Roses' weekly discussions on BDSM topics. I hope you enjoy it. The following rules apply for all present.
[21:14] <raven{Az}> You must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave. Legal age being 18 or 21 depending on your location, if you are thought to be younger, you will be asked your age. If you are found to be younger, you will be kick/banned.
[21:14] <raven{Az}> No trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night Trolling is the advertising of yourself, wants/needs/desires, and/or personal ads. If you troll, you will be kick/banned.
[21:14] <raven{Az}> Harassment will not be tolerated either. If you harass another person, and an op is made aware of it, you will be asked to stop. If you continue, you will be kick/banned. This discussion is for enjoyment and information, not harassment.
[21:14] <raven{Az}> Please try to stay on topic and discuss one thread at a time. If the discussion gets overly fast (or overly emotional, or someone requests a break), I will call a break. This is so everyone can take a few moments to relax, and get their thoughts in order before continuing.
[21:15] <raven{Az}> If it erodes into a semantics argument, and those who are disagreeing can not agree to disagree, I will close the discussion for the night. We are here to discuss and learn from one anther, not fight with one another.
[21:15] <raven{Az}> Please be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. Flaming is insulting the person who states an idea. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[21:15] <raven{Az}> All statements are publishable on the web site,. I will change nicks if it is requested via email to webmaster@leathernroses.com. If I receive no requests, logs will be published in full on the web site and the lack of a request will be taken as consent to publish your statements.
[21:15] <raven{Az}> I hope you enjoy tonight's discussion, the topic is D/s without S/m...
[21:15] <raven{Az}> So to begin, what is d/s to you?
[21:15] <Eric^> power
[21:15] <MasterJP> power exchange
[21:16] <Qryz> the power exchange, given and taken freely
[21:16] <Eric^> ownership
[21:16] <kiten{Sw}> pleasure and comfort kiten thinks
[21:16] <raven{Az}> ok..so would you say it is mental/emotional more than physical?
[21:17] <raven{Az}> pleasure and comfort, how so kiten?
[21:17] <{sonja}JP> i would say it is def. more mental/emotional
[21:17] <kiten{Sw}> well to me the part of having some one loving caring wathcing over me that i can give pleasure to ...offers pleasure to me
[21:17] <fairys_ki> agrees with sonja..
[21:18] <raven{Az}> I can see that kiten
[21:18] <MasterJP> completely mental / emotional
[21:18] <raven{Az}> to me d/s is the power exchange inherent wihtin a d/s relationship...it is mental and emotional...
[21:18] <kiten{Sw}> and is comofrtable in the sense that i think it to me takes out the power struggles that lague most relationships
[21:19] <raven{Az}> so..do you think d/s can exist without s/m being involved?
[21:19] <raven{Az}> makes sense as well kiten..
[21:19] * {sonja}JP says yes
[21:19] * MasterJP nods
[21:19] * Eric^ thinks that d/s and s/m are completely seperate things
[21:19] <fairys_ki> yes
[21:19] * MasterJP knows they are
[21:19] <raven{Az}> I agree Eric..
[21:19] <Eric^> they don't require each other at all
[21:19] * raven{Az} plays devil's advocate...
[21:19] <raven{Az}> why not Eric?
[21:19] <Qryz> I wouldn't say it takes out the power struggle...in fact, it exemplifies the power struggle - there is always an ebb and flow, and (hopefully) a continuing release of power from one to the other partner...
[21:19] <Eric^> why don't they require each other?
[21:19] <MasterJP> cause they don't   ;-)
[21:19] <raven{Az}> isn't the physical submitting of one's body to taking pain from another, an act of submission?
[21:20] <raven{Az}> yup Eric..that's my question..<smile.
[21:20] <raven{Az}> >
[21:20] <Eric^> if you enjoy it raven are you submitting?
[21:20] <raven{Az}> OHhhhhh...just lob that ball right back at me too..LOLOL
[21:20] <mizu> if that is how you wish to do it raven
[21:20] <Eric^> if you like the sting of the cane on your ass, and you beg for it, is there a power exchange?
[21:20] * raven{Az} thinks how to answer this..
[21:20] <MasterJP> a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle need not be a square raven
[21:21] <raven{Az}> nope..it isn't submission to me..
[21:21] <raven{Az}> true JP
[21:21] <raven{Az}> true mizu
[21:21] <raven{Az}> but..isn't there a power exchange of sorts, present in a scene between a sadist and a masochist, evne though both enjoy what is going on?
[21:21] <Eric^> doesn't want to side track into that, but, whether you like it or not, if you submit to what I require, it is submission <g>
[21:21] * raven{Az} reminds she is playing devil's advocate
[21:22] <raven{Az}> ok Eric..makes sense..
[21:23] <raven{Az}> So if d/s can exist without s/m, why is s/m part of d/s for many people?
[21:23] <{sonja}JP> cause it is fun?
[21:23] <Eric^> cause they're freaks?
[21:23] * raven{Az} giggles...works for me sonja :)
[21:23] <raven{Az}> nawwwwwww...freaks is such an...impolite word Eric..:)
[21:23] <Eric^> I use it in the best possible way
[21:23] <Eric^> anyhow
[21:23] <raven{Az}> I know..just teasing..
[21:23] <raven{Az}> :)
[21:24] <arella> uhmm.. freaks sounds right to me
[21:24] * arella giggles
[21:24] <raven{Az}> LOL gf
[21:24] <{sonja}JP> a relationship can survive without sex right?.......why couldnt it work without s/m?
[21:24] <Eric^> s/m does represent a power exchange, in certain arenas, no doubt
[21:24] * Qryz is trying to avoid getting into the bottoming vs submission topic
[21:24] <raven{Az}> can a relationship survive for long without sex?...or would that depend more on the importance the participants place on sex?
[21:24] <nessa{JW}> I think there still is a power exchange when the slave likes pain, most of my personal like comes from knowing i am submitting to it to please him, it so gets me excited, that the strokes become pleasurable.
[21:24] <MasterJP> did that just come out of your mouth pet?
[21:24] * raven{Az} nods to Eric..
[21:24] <kiten{Sw}> thinks becuase the pain can provide the high that leads to greater pleasure and greater submission
[21:24] <{sonja}JP> LOL..........it can..........it would be NO fun.......but it can :)
[21:25] <raven{Az}> don't worry Qryz..I expect that topic to come up in this discussion...it is, in my opinion, part of this discussion...
[21:25] <nessa{JW}>   also, just because i crave it and beg for it sure doesnt mean i get it, so thats a power exchange there also i think
[21:25] <raven{Az}> yes nessa..that happens to me sometimes too...
[21:25] <raven{Az}> is submission only physical kiten?
[21:25] * raven{Az} nods at nessa..I can see that..
[21:25] <Eric^> but, s/m is totally unneccessary to d/s
[21:25] * {sonja}JP thinks she has shocked her Master speechless.......
[21:25] <nessa{JW}> well, unnecessary for your d/s, Sir
[21:25] <nessa{JW}> <G>
[21:26] * Qryz remembers that mizu gave his submissiong long before we had sex, or played, or were more than good friends....
[21:26] <kiten{Sw}> no completely not raven because the mind has to submit the heart has to submitt inorder to let the physical submission be full
[21:26] <Eric^> it is not necessary to have pain play to have d/s happen
[21:26] <raven{Az}> I agree Eric..it is totally uneccessary to d/s...but for many, it is the icing on the d/s cake..just as sexual intercouse it the icing on many relationships..it isn't the whole relationship..but a very important part ...
[21:26] <Eric^> lol@nessa, I have s/m partners and d/s partners, Kristy is both
[21:26] <nessa{JW}> that is true, Sir most of our relationship is based on d/s with a sprinking of S/m
[21:26] <raven{Az}> I believe a bit differently kiten..physical submission is easy..mental/emotional submission (which makes submission complete)is alot harder..and does not needphysical submission...
[21:27] <nessa{JW}> but were there none at all, i do beleive i would go quietly insane, so for my d/s it is necessary to some degree
[21:27] <raven{Az}> DO you think that coming to an opinion on this topic depends upon how one defines submission?
[21:27] <Qryz> yup - I've bottomed but never submitted
[21:27] <kiten{Sw}> ahhh i knd of think of them as a triangle but i dint describe it right~blush~
[21:28] <raven{Az}> yes nessa..mine too..I need the play from time to time..not every day..not even every week..but there are times where I *need* the play...
[21:28] <Eric^> that is possible, it depends, I think, on what you view as dominance and submission. Are these mental/emotional behaviors/actions or are they physical ones?
[21:28] * raven{Az} needed play last night for example
[21:28] <nessa{JW}> yeppers, id love it every day, but i dont "need" it that often
[21:28] <{sonja}JP> but what if one partner or the other were not "able"?
[21:28] <Soulhuntr> See now that I thinka bout it I don't >need< play at all.
[21:28] <raven{Az}> Good point Eric...
[21:28] <{sonja}JP> could the D/s still survive?
[21:28] <arella> WHy not Ken?
[21:29] <kiten{Sw}> thinks the high that comes from play or the freedom of feeling ...is a good thing and kiten often needs it
[21:29] <raven{Az}> to me, d/s is more a state of mind (so to speak) than physical actions..the phsyical actions are the visible outpourings of the state of mind of both parties..
[21:29] <nessa{JW}> endorphins are addicting <duh>
[21:29] * Qryz thinks....I need mizu's submission, and I need him to open jars for me...but I don't need play per se
[21:29] <raven{Az}> true nessa
[21:29] <Soulhuntr> arella - play, in the form of a physical act is like sex really - its fun but certainly not central in my life. I demand deference and submission, but I can take or leave the flogginsd and so on.
[21:29] <arella> okay..
[21:29] <nessa{JW}> i think for me its more of an emotional addiction than a physiological tho
[21:29] * arella doesn't mean to change the topic.. but is curious about that
[21:29] <Eric^> I won't repeat what Ken just said... me too
[21:30] <raven{Az}> I tend to think that human beings need sex to a certain extent...maybe not the frequency with which it seems people say they "need it"..but it is a need, in my opinion
[21:30] <nessa{JW}> i think part of the need for S&M for me is to demonstrate to me that is IS a D/s relationship not a vanilla one but thats just by personal baggage
[21:30] <arella> I do too raven.. they need the.. closeness?
[21:30] <kiten{Sw}> ^^ perks up her hears~ endorphins are addicting?! ut oh
[21:30] * {sonja}JP does......
[21:30] <Qryz> every once in a while I do get a hankering to cane someone...but that's nothing to do with our daily d/s
[21:30] <arella> the release with/to another person
[21:30] <Soulhuntr> well, I wont argue with ya raven, but I could go years and years without sex without having any significant ill effects.
[21:30] <Eric^> so sex (or s/m for that matter) brings emotional closeness for you
[21:30] <raven{Az}> yes arella..plus, the physical and mental release that often occurs with really good sex/play...
[21:30] <{sonja}JP> that is why Master was so surprised with my comment.....
[21:31] <nessa{JW}> yep they are the body's natural opiates, kitten, highly addicting
[21:31] <arella> yes.. thats what I meant gf
[21:31] <kiten{Sw}> grins and i took to them like a duck to water
[21:31] <raven{Az}> no problem Ken...I've gone for extended periods without, and for a short while I had some extra crankiness..but I adjusted..so I have to agree that some people don't need sex very much...
[21:31] <kiten{Sw}> kiten s agrees that its very emotional~ she just isnt usually good with the emotional part of submission
[21:32] * Qryz doesn't understand not needing sex very much...looking and mizu and laffing laffing laffing
[21:32] <Soulhuntr> of course, I think peopel misuse the term addiction in the ase of endorphines. Endorphines are naturally occouring and there is no evidence that they are phsyically addicting in any technical sense. People just liek them.
[21:32] <raven{Az}> to a certain extent..yes Eric..but i think that might be because in my relationship, the play is sometimes an extension of the emotional bond between Ron and I...
[21:32] <Eric^> I can get the emotional needs fulfilled through the d/s side of the relationship. If, for some reason, I had to put the whips and chains away, and never do s/m play again, as long as I had d/s, no problem
[21:32] <mizu> yeap not like she believes me (giggle)
[21:32] * MasterJP waves quietly as he slips from the room
[21:32] <raven{Az}> atother times..it's purely for sensation..no emotions..
[21:32] <raven{Az}> LOL Qryz
[21:32] <Soulhuntr> Good point Eric - my emotional attachment comes from the D/s, not the s/m.
[21:32] * Qryz nods and agrees with Eric^
[21:32] <raven{Az}> then again...is it possible people just put more emphasis/meaning on the sex or s/m aspects of a relationship than truly needs to be tehre?
[21:33] <nessa{JW}> yes actually Sir, there is evidence, when someone   is used to the level of endorphins being elevated to a certain degree, the body adjusts to that, and when it is no longer provided, depression occurs
[21:33] <raven{Az}> I agree Eric..
[21:33] <nessa{JW}> its jsut like opium, while they are naturally occuring, they are not naturally occuring at high levels
[21:33] <Soulhuntr> nessa - depression is not the same thing as withdrawl. Peopel get depressed when they cant watch x-files , that doesnt make it an addiciton :)
[21:34] <nessa{JW}> lol well the clinical studies indicated that it was withdrawl due to a lowerd level of endorphins
[21:34] <arella> thats just sad/upset.. not depression Ken
[21:34] <nessa{JW}> they studied mostly runners, and athletes
[21:34] <Soulhuntr> arella - this could stem from my base beliefs ont he topic of depression :)
[21:34] <Eric^> I can honestly say, for me, it's about power, not s/m. I only got introduced to s/m in the past 3 to 4 years. I spent all of my life fulfiling my needs for power and control
[21:34] <mizu> guess they could not find enough porn stars for the study?
[21:34] <raven{Az}> I'm not sure endorphines are addictive..but I can certainly see how someone could come to crave the feelings an endorphine rush provides..
[21:34] <kiten{Sw}> thinks the sense she is getting is that BDSm is being likened to sex
[21:34] * raven{Az} giggles as Ron joins the discussion
[21:35] * arella nods.. probably Ken
[21:35] <Soulhuntr> to me, a physical addiction is one that has physical withdrawl sympoms - fever, shakes, illness, nausea and so on.
[21:35] <raven^Ron> LOL mizu
[21:35] <Eric^> kiten, bdsm is, to a certain extent, just extensions of sex outside the normal "vanilla" areas
[21:35] <raven^Ron> I agree Ken
[21:35] <Soulhuntr> good word raven, "crave".
[21:35] * Qryz agrees with Soulhuntr - that is the defnition of addiction, yes
[21:35] <raven^Ron> I agree Eric
[21:35] <arella> you don't belive someone can be mentally addicted to something? they think they need it, so therefor when they Don't have it it causes actual physical and and emotional reactions.
[21:35] <raven^Ron> thanks Ken..
[21:35] <arella> ?
[21:35] * Qryz wonders if you can have d/s without some form of arousal...not necessarily sex, but arousal
[21:36] <Soulhuntr> so while I might see how endorphines might cause mental addiction, they are not nearly int he same class as opium in this regard.
[21:36] <nessa{JW}>   Soulhunter,   the withdrawal symptoms depend on the addiction, what the chemical is
[21:36] <nessa{JW}>   and the person
[21:36] <kiten{Sw}> ahhh kiten sees why she doesnt fully experience it yet then...thinks and listens
[21:36] <raven^Ron> Ron: that letter you got the other night was d/s without s/m raven...the husband was going to have his way come hell or high water..and the wife obeyed, no questions asked...
[21:36] <{sonja}JP> do we know anyone who has tried?
[21:36] <nessa{JW}> but thats a biology lecture, not exactly on the toppic
[21:36] <Eric^> sure you can Qryz. What is d/s, it's about dominating someone so that they submit their will to you. It happens in many forms, not just romantic
[21:36] <nessa{JW}> so forgive me for straying
[21:36] <{sonja}JP> having a D/s r without arousal....
[21:36] <raven^Ron> no problem nessa
[21:37] <Qryz> but...isn't the domination a pleasure, therefore arousing? (in my meaning arousal again, is not necessarily sexual in nature)
[21:37] <nessa{JW}> wow i dont think i could have d/s without getting aroused
[21:37] <Soulhuntr> no problem nessa :) My point is that in this topic lots of subs say they are "addicted" to scenes, and invoke endorphines as the cause when what they really mean is that they like scenes and get cranky when they don't get em enough.
[21:37] <Soulhuntr> One is a issue of self control, the other is a cause for a trip to a clinic :)
[21:37] <nessa{JW}> lol i get cranky but then i dont get them with enough regularity to actyally be addicted
[21:37] <nessa{JW}> those who play nightly would be in danger of such i would suspect
[21:38] <Eric^> Qryz, if you mean pleasurable, sure. When I was a sergeant in the army I certainly took a lot of pleasure in the power I had, the training of my soldiers, controlling and directing their lives. But I ddin't get sexually aroused. it was still dominance
[21:38] <Qryz> what is the word you use then, to explain why you dominate someone, if not arousal?
[21:38] <Soulhuntr> I am fairly sure if I had a sub who was "addicted" to scenes I would have to detox her or dismiss her. I have no desire to be governed by her addictions.
[21:38] <raven^Ron> I could do d/s without being aroused..and in many ways..I do d/s without arousal..
[21:38] <Eric^> Qryz: I feed on it :)
[21:38] <nessa{JW}> i get sexually aroused when my master finds me pleasing, its very tied to my sexuality
[21:39] <raven^Ron> May I ask Ken if there are times when a scene takes place because your sub requested one?
[21:39] <{sonja}JP> brb
[21:39] <Soulhuntr> Power is arousing - in fact it is sex that occasionally shadows that arousal - not the other way around. Sex is sort of a pale shadow at that. If I looked at someone and could sleep with them or make them cry my name in supplication I would take #2.
[21:39] <Eric^> Qryz: I'm not sure that I have a word to explain why I dominate someone. It's my nature. My nature is to hold power, it is who I am.
[21:39] <Qryz> ah, well - to me Eric^, 'feeding' on something is akin to arousal...and there is always pleasure in the energy flow
[21:39] <kiten{Sw}> totally agrees with the crank part...is a sammie too much
[21:39] * mizu giggles
[21:40] <Soulhuntr> raven - no, not really. Occasionally the request itself is so well done it brings desire out in me... but their request is not the trigger... their manner is.
[21:40] * Qryz *looks* at mizu - that's NOT what I meant!!!
[21:40] <mizu> ohhh ok, sorry Dear (giggle)
[21:41] <Eric^> Qryz: although I certainly enjoy dominance <g>
[21:41] <raven^Ron> ok..that makes sense to me Ken..I know that if I demand sex or play, it isn't a turn on for Ron...and he wouldn't give it to me....my manner would be the problem..
[21:41] <Eric^> raven: demanding sex/scene or trying to imply I have an obligation to sex/scene is the surest way to ensure that you will not get it from me
[21:41] <raven^Ron> however, if my manner is "right" he gets turned on by it..I guess you'd say seductive manner?
[21:41] <Soulhuntr> ^^^ what he said
[21:41] <raven^Ron> yup...
[21:42] <raven^Ron> Ron just added that part too Eric..
[21:42] <raven^Ron> raven giggles..somehow having known Ron would add that..
[21:42] <nessa{JW}> ive never met a dom/master/mistress that demanding anything from got one anywhere
[21:42] <raven^Ron> Ron: or I'd give it..but you certainly wouldn't enjoy it in any way raven...
[21:42] <Soulhuntr> yes. I can occasionally be seduced ::shrugs:: but it is not an easy thing. Or I shoudl say - it is a very simple thing to seduce me... you just need to be pure in your motives :)
[21:42] <Eric^> but, requesting to provide a service for me of xyz, now that could happen, and could be initiated by the submissive
[21:42] <raven^Ron> I agree Ken..
[21:42] <raven^Ron> so does Ron
[21:42] <raven^Ron> makes sense..
[21:43] <Soulhuntr> nessa - and I see them allt he time. The local BDSM groups are FILLEd with "dominants" whow reflexively flog and scene week after week because their sub "needs" it.
[21:43] <Eric^> Ken, meaning pure in service/submission rather than trying to get their own needs filled?
[21:43] <kiten{Sw}> well then who holds the eigns there?
[21:43] <Soulhuntr> ::thinks:: close enough eric.
[21:43] <raven^Ron> So..is it fair to say that the general consensus is d/s can exist without s/m because d/s is mental/emotional above and beyond the physical sensation of s/m play?
[21:43] <Soulhuntr> kiten -t hat is my point :)
[21:44] <mizu> ego of the Dom and sub to "show off" for the group
[21:44] * {sonja}JP would agree with that raven
[21:44] <Soulhuntr> that sums it up for me r/R :)
[21:44] <raven^Ron> in many people's opinions kiten, the dom holds the reigns...but in the more PC version of BDSM, the sub holds the reigns..I prefer the dom holding the reigns..
[21:44] <mizu> yeap raven
[21:44] <raven^Ron> could be mizu
[21:44] <{sonja}JP> me too raven
[21:44] <raven^Ron> ok...
[21:44] <kiten{Sw}> nods with agreement toward raven
[21:45] <raven^Ron> sooooooooooo....is a relationship between a top and a bottom..d/s in any way, even if just during the scene?
[21:45] <nessa{JW}> lol Soul Sir i meant people i consider Dominant, not any old "dominant" but those who i know or consider to be worthy of the title Dominant, Master or Mistress
[21:45] <raven^Ron> brb..giving Ron keyboard while I get coffee
[21:45] <nessa{JW}> yes there are many who i personally dont feel are dominant, that call themselves such, that allow themselves to be manipulated by their "submissives"
[21:45] <{sonja}JP> i would say that depends on the scene.......and the people involved.....and lots of other things
[21:45] <Eric^> raven: you read my blog from last night..... I would say that scene was all about dominance and submission, not top and bottom
[21:45] <Soulhuntr> Sure raven, at any time any human can be dominant over another human - it can come and go like lightning.
[21:46] <kiten{Sw}> has a question...raises hand
[21:46] <Soulhuntr> shoot :)
[21:46] <mizu> no, for a true relationship there must be a conection, or it is just play
[21:46] * Qryz Dommes people all the time...and they never even know it, in the d/s sense...is there a power exchange? sure there is!
[21:46] <raven^Ron> Ron: Go ahead kiten
[21:47] * raven^Ron nods.,...Yeah...that was d/s Eric.......but it did involve s/m too.....
[21:47] <Eric^> yes, it did
[21:47] <Eric^> but, I also do scenes that are just s/m, because I happen to enjoy that
[21:47] * raven^Ron smiles at Eric....I knew I liked you
[21:48] * raven^Ron chuckles
[21:48] <Eric^> lol, that's gotta be Ron
[21:48] * {sonja}JP does not know whether or not is is possible.........but i do know that i would NOT want to be even in a play scene without SOMEONE in charge......
[21:48] <arella> yes.. it was Ron..
[21:48] * raven^Ron returns and scrolls to see what she missed..
[21:48] <arella> raven was getting coffee for everyone.. :)
[21:48] <raven^Ron> yes Eric..I read your blog and yes..
[21:49] <Eric^> in my conception of a top/bottom scene, rather than a d/s one, both partners are equally in charge. That's what negotiation and so forth is all about.
[21:49] <raven^Ron> I agree that during a scene it can be d/s....but for me personally, d/s is outside the scenes
[21:49] <raven^Ron> makes sense sonja
[21:50] <raven^Ron> Ron: yup that was me Eric.. :)
[21:50] <{sonja}JP> but then, i have never played with anyone other than Master.....so i dunno so much :)
[21:50] <arella> I think the d/s stuff is the more mental stuff.. control and stuff.. which is pretty much present all the time in a ongoing relationship
[21:50] <kiten{Sw}> ok well one minute i can be all lovey and obediant but the next i can roast my DOm...does this make me a bad sub?
[21:50] <{sonja}JP> and can pop up at the oddest times....
[21:50] <raven^Ron> agreed arella..and in some play partner..or top/bottom relationships..the control shifts entirely to the dominant in the scene..thus in that sense, d/s is present...
[21:51] <{sonja}JP> depends on how He feels about it kiten......
[21:51] * arella nods
[21:51] <raven^Ron> it depends on what your dominant views as a "good sub" kiten...
[21:51] <Soulhuntr> kiten - that question is lacking far too much context for an answer :)
[21:51] <Soulhuntr> I may well make you "bad" in my view ::shrugs:: - I am not sure why that woudl matter.
[21:51] <raven^Ron> in my opinion and definition of a sub, yes kiten because your intention is to force a scene..it's topping from the bottom...
[21:51] <kiten{Sw}> giggles the context would probably have all D/ommes heading for the hills
[21:51] <{sonja}JP> ummmm raven - stop that *g*
[21:51] <raven^Ron> however...if your master likes it..then that's fine.. :)
[21:52] <kiten{Sw}> well..yes and no sometimes its cuz im moddy or pissed and cant control it
[21:52] <raven^Ron> probably not kiten...it would however, probably have the doms in this room coming down on you...
[21:52] <raven^Ron> some doms absolutely detest bratting..
[21:52] <kiten{Sw}> then kiten will be an angel...smiles
[21:52] <raven^Ron> Ron thinks, yes kiten..(in answerto your question)
[21:53] * Qryz can't stand bratting...but people who see me and mizu think that he's bratting...but he's not...its all in the perception - or perhaps its being blinded by love, who knows?
[21:53] <mizu> brb, laundry
[21:53] <raven^Ron> Ron: Think about it..if you're sub..you shouldn't be forcing anything..you should be accepting and submitting..not ppushing...
[21:53] <{sonja}JP> actually......if you feel you cant control yourself.......and your Dom isnt trying to correct that behavior.....then it is his problem, IMO
[21:53] <raven^Ron> true Qryz..
[21:53] <raven^Ron> it's his problem only if he sees it as aproblem sonja..
[21:53] <kiten{Sw}> i thinkits what is tolerated..kiten tows to what is tolerated but it also shows the ebb and flow of the submission and power exchange
[21:53] <{sonja}JP> right........that's what i ment
[21:53] <arella> if he does see it as a problem.. then yes sonja
[21:54] <raven^Ron> in your relationship, yes kiten it shows the eb and flow...
[21:54] <Soulhuntr> Ok... the phrase "can't control it" is the one that would probably make sure you and I never had a good relationship :) So int hat sense yeah, your "bad". But fortunatly it doesnt matter :)
[21:54] <Qryz> however...if I wasn't sure of mizu's submission - he would be towing the line a LOT more - but if there's one thing I know, its that I own mizu, heart and soul...so we have a very comfy relationship
[21:54] <raven^Ron> in many other relationships, such behavior would not be tolerated at all..and in some, would end the relationship all together..
[21:54] * Eric^ is leery to define another's relationship and how it should work. I can tell you what works for me, and whether I would find something acceptable in my household
[21:54] <raven^Ron> I agree Eric..
[21:55] * {sonja}JP used to be allowed a bit of brattiness........she is being reigned it a bit on that..........LOL
[21:56] <raven^Ron> Ron allows a certain level of brattiness..go too far..and well...it's not nice
[21:56] <kiten{Sw}> *nods*
[21:56] <destinee> but if your never bad how do you have fun?
[21:56] <kiten{Sw}> i thinks over time i learn more how to behave as is acceptable and i learn my own self control as well
[21:57] <Soulhuntr> I will tolerate someone getting "bratty" at the wrong times if it is a mistake - I can fix mistakes. But if Kimiko ever convinced me her flaws were something she "couldn't control" then I would release her as too flawed. Better she just f*cked up and can be taught better than that she is too messed up to ever learn.
[21:57] <Soulhuntr> why would being "bad" be your path to fun?
[21:57] <raven^Ron> Honestly destinee, I request play ...don't always get it...but am allowed to requestit..I prefer non punishment related play to bratting/punishment play
[21:57] <Eric^> "spunky" or "sparky" behavior is okay. At the point where the behavior cannot be controlled, or is used to try and manipulate me, the girl would be kicked out of my household with a quickness
[21:57] <raven^Ron> I agree Ken
[21:57] <Soulhuntr> "bad" means disobedience, disrespect and defiance. How coudl any of that lead to "fun"?
[21:58] * raven^Ron thinks she would be one hurting puppy if she was disobedient, disrespectful and defiant of Ron...
[21:58] <Eric^> in fact, I did just that this summer with a girl who could not learn that manipulation was not accpetable
[21:58] <raven^Ron> So..would bratting be d/s?
[21:58] <Soulhuntr> no. brattign is a symptom of a flaw in a d.s relationship.
[21:58] <raven^Ron> What if the person didn't realize tehy were manipulating Eric? (it can happen sometimes, took me a while to learn the difference between manipulation and "goofing off")
[21:59] <mizu> kinda streching it, but i do not think it should be
[21:59] <Soulhuntr> now, playful teasing is not the same thign at all.
[21:59] <raven^Ron> is there a difference between bratting and goofing off?
[21:59] <raven^Ron> nevermind..you answered me Ken :)
[21:59] <nessa{JW}> well i think some <not saying this is the case here> allow the bratting, and disobediance as a way of justifying the pain play, rather than setting the rules and not giving the sub/slave the type of play they want as a reward for unwanted behavior
[21:59] <raven^Ron> I agree mizu
[21:59] <{sonja}JP> i was just about to ask........thanks Ken
[21:59] <Eric^> raven: I had several sessions of counselling on what manipulative behavior was, pointing exactly what she had done that constituted it. It didn't change
[21:59] <Eric^> nessa: I'm the owner, why do I have to "justify" the pain play?
[21:59] <raven^Ron> Ahhh..so you would point it out..give chanceto change.before kicking out..makes sense to me Eric and I agree :)
[22:00] <nessa{JW}> Eric, you dont
[22:00] <Soulhuntr> nessa - I dont mind playing a punishment "game" for fun ... but it had better be a game. bratting is more akin to manipulation.
[22:00] <nessa{JW}> some feel they need to
[22:00] * kiten{Sw} thinks my versions are definately more teasing and i only get in trouble for worse things like not being careful
[22:00] <raven^Ron> true nessa..some do feel they need a"reason" to do pain play..
[22:00] <nessa{JW}> i dont think that some new "Dominants" know better, imho
[22:00] <mizu> and some fell the need to kill 50 people, still it is not right
[22:00] * Eric^ grins, now Kristy and I roleplay the school girl who gets in trouble, that is fun, but that isn't bratting that is role playing
[22:01] <{sonja}JP> lol.........Eric just wanted to say that.......
[22:01] <{sonja}JP> LOL mizu........just read that....
[22:01] <Soulhuntr> sometimes I just cant help but laugh when I get email from some submissive looking for Estate information talkign about hwo much they crave punishment. I keep thinking - baby, you have obviously never been punished.
[22:01] <raven^Ron> I would think that bratting would fit well into a roleplay scene.
[22:02] <nessa{JW}> no kidding Soulhuntr Sir, punishment is to be avoided at ALL costs
[22:02] <Eric^> it does
[22:02] * raven^Ron finally learned punishment from play..and hates punishment..
[22:02] <raven^Ron> it..it...hurts...in more ways than one..
[22:02] <{sonja}JP> ummmmmhmmmmmmm.........tell that to my left cheek which is finally NOT bruised....
[22:02] <raven^Ron> Which brings up a question..is corporal punishment s/m or d/s?
[22:03] <{sonja}JP> D/s
[22:03] <nessa{JW}> hmmmmmm
[22:03] <raven^Ron> Ron: D/s
[22:03] <Soulhuntr> if it's s/m then it isnt punishment :)
[22:03] <nessa{JW}> D/s if its punishment'
[22:03] <{sonja}JP> when it is actually punishment
[22:03] <nessa{JW}> S/M if its play
[22:03] <raven^Ron> raven:D/s...the sub is submitting to something they do not desire,enjoy nor want...
[22:03] <kiten{Sw}> agrees with raven because when a girl is really introuble and People are really mad...it hurs the heart more
[22:03] <{sonja}JP> WOW..........i agreed with Ken three times tonight..........quick....someone get me a thermometer......LOL
[22:03] * Qryz doesn't do corporal punishment...only mental d/s punishment
[22:03] <raven^Ron> Ron: the word punishment implies thereis a reason behind it..whereas s/m implies it's because both orjust the dom wants too...
[22:03] <Eric^> lol@sonja
[22:03] <raven^Ron> LOL sonja
[22:04] <arella> hearing.. you were bad.. you messed up.. You've upset me.. is worse then any hitting anyhow.. for me..
[22:04] <raven^Ron> actyally sonja..Ken makes alotof sense alot of the time
[22:04] * arella just wants to die after those words
[22:04] <{sonja}JP> yep arella
[22:04] <nessa{JW}> yes for me as well arella
[22:04] <raven^Ron> Ron uses both corporal and mental in punishment...:(
[22:04] <{sonja}JP> i was just thinking that i am sooooo glad i have not been bad enough for Master to "mentally" punish me
[22:04] <nessa{JW}> "I'm dissapointed in you" can send me into a deep blue funk untilve made things right and regained his favor"
[22:04] <{sonja}JP> other than the "looks
[22:04] <raven^Ron> yes nessa
[22:04] <{sonja}JP> "
[22:05] <Eric^> sonja, mental punishment is as simple as me saying, "I don't like that"
[22:05] <arella> looks!!
[22:05] <raven^Ron> raven hates the looks..:(((
[22:05] <destinee> mental punishment hurts worse
[22:05] * arella hides..
[22:05] <raven^Ron> that works alot Eric...
[22:05] <raven^Ron> LOL gf
[22:05] <nessa{JW}> or being made to sleep on the couch
[22:05] <arella> no no no looks!
[22:05] * {sonja}JP sat down in the shower and CRIED
[22:05] <nessa{JW}> that forced separation
[22:05] <{sonja}JP> looks=bad
[22:05] <nessa{JW}> its horrid
[22:05] <raven^Ron> raven hates forced seperation...
[22:06] <nessa{JW}> me too, to be denied his presence as a form of punishment is the ultimate for me
[22:06] <kiten{Sw}> hates mental emotional punishment
[22:06] <arella> kimmie hates anything that means I did something wrong
[22:06] <raven^Ron> Ron: it depends on hte people involved..some shrug offmental punishments, some shrug offphysical;...you have to find what works best in the situation...
[22:06] <kiten{Sw}> nods at arella
[22:06] <{sonja}JP> Master had just a little one.......cause of some little thing i said.....and wouldnt let me hold His hand from the car to the theater.....
[22:06] <raven^Ron> me too arella
[22:06] <nessa{JW}> knowing ive been bad enough that he doestn wish to even see me cuts me very deeply and surely brings about a change in behavior
[22:06] <{sonja}JP> it was just a LITTLE thing - both behavior and punishment......but it still cut....
[22:07] <raven^Ron> yes sonja..
[22:07] <{sonja}JP> i was.....lost
[22:07] <raven^Ron> can d/s exist without a power exchange?
[22:07] <kiten{Sw}> shivers oh no girl would cry she crys when she has to in the corner byherself cuz it cuts into cuddling time
[22:07] <{sonja}JP> no
[22:07] <arella> no
[22:07] <raven^Ron> Ron: no
[22:07] <Qryz> nope
[22:07] <raven^Ron> raven: no
[22:07] <mizu> nope
[22:07] * {sonja}JP raises her hands over head......Rocky style..... i won.....i was the fastest!!!!!
[22:07] * arella thinks it's cute that Qryz and mizu answer with the same word
[22:08] * raven^Ron giggles
[22:08] <mizu> ?
[22:08] * arella giggles
[22:08] * Qryz blushes....I noticed that too!
[22:08] <raven^Ron> does s/m need a power exchange?
[22:08] <arella> everyone else said.. no.. both you and Qryz, said nope, mizu
[22:08] * mizu giggles
[22:08] <arella> no I don't think it Has to have one raven
[22:08] <mizu> i was firts!
[22:08] <{sonja}JP> not really......i dont think.....but well.......i dunno
[22:08] <Eric^> why should s/m NEED a power exchange?
[22:08] * mizu gigglesd
[22:09] <Qryz> hey - mizu says that he does NOT get upset when I tell him he's been bad/wrong, because if I said it, its true....so why wouldn't that be upsetting? is this a chick thing?
[22:09] <Eric^> I can beat your ass without ever having power over you
[22:09] <raven^Ron> could be Qryz
[22:09] <raven^Ron> Ron: no
[22:09] <arella> I don't think it does.. exactly Eric^
[22:09] <raven^Ron> true Eric...
[22:09] <Eric^> top and bottom are really sexual orientations <winks at raven> not descriptions of where you are on a d/s spectrum
[22:10] <raven^Ron> raven winks back..
[22:10] <Soulhuntr> Well, I dont know many dominant bottoms.
[22:10] <{sonja}JP> it's not so much being told you are wrong/did something bad.......it is the DISAPPOINTMENT that is the killer
[22:10] <Qryz> hmmmmm sexual, Eric^, or sensation orientations?
[22:10] <raven^Ron> Unfortunately, I define them differently Eric...they can be both...definitive of sexual orientation...as well as terms to describe where on the d/s spectrum one falls...for me anyway :)
[22:10] * {sonja}JP loves that phrase........"sensation orientation"
[22:10] <raven^Ron> LOLOL Ken
[22:10] <Eric^> I know a dominant who is also a bottom. He enjoys being flogged, etc
[22:10] <nessa{JW}> the truth of my master finding me displeasing hurts, Qryz, knowing that he is right, and that ive been bad, and i dont think its a chick thing, ive discussed it with several male slaves
[22:11] <raven^Ron> Oh I like that phrase Qryz!!
[22:11] <raven^Ron> that works Eric...:)
[22:11] <Eric^> he is what a lot of people refer to as a switch, but he never subs, so I wouldn't say he is a switch
[22:11] <{sonja}JP> so.......a Top is oriented to Giving the sensation of pain, while a bottom is oriented to receiving?
[22:11] <arella> what about people who.. switch? at certain times, with certain people act as top, and with certain people act bottom?
[22:11] <{sonja}JP> then that wouldnt work with
[22:11] <{sonja}JP> Erics friend
[22:11] <{sonja}JP> hmmmmmm
[22:12] <nessa{JW}> oh heavens, i have to go do some chores, i will see you all back on the list, tooodles :)
[22:12] <raven^Ron> I wouldn't call him a switch either Eric..honestly, I'd say he is a dominant who happens to enjoy pain play..no big deal...
[22:12] <raven^Ron> by my definition of the terms, yes sonja..
[22:12] <Soulhuntr> bottoming is not the same thing as being a masochist :)
[22:13] <arella> true
[22:13] <Soulhuntr> Bottoming is playiung at the role of submission - it doesnt mean just gettign hurt.
[22:13] <Eric^> hmmmm, you think so Ken?
[22:13] <raven^Ron> explain please Ken...
[22:13] <Eric^> my view has always been that a bottom is another word for masochist
[22:13] <raven^Ron> but doesn't one usualy bottom in the context of a scene?
[22:13] * {sonja}JP is so confused by all the terms/definitions......
[22:13] <Soulhuntr> In a top/bottom scene, the bottom is usually going to follow orders ina limited way - that is a faux submission.
[22:13] <raven^Ron> Ron thinks a little..Oh oh oh..got it..
[22:13] * mizu toss sonja a beer
[22:14] <arella> which isn't to say.. they enjoy the pain or anything. .. they are playing a role.. yes?
[22:14] <Soulhuntr> I have seen several dominants who had their subs work with them to creat the sensation of pain int he dominant - but there was not bottoming involved at all.
[22:14] <{sonja}JP> icky........thanks for the thought tho mizu.........got any Bacardi?
[22:14] <raven^Ron> Ron: But usually a bottom is going to get their butt busted, in a very real sense, and usually because tehy enjoy it...so..masochist?
[22:14] <{sonja}JP> ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........speaking of which.....with no work........brb
[22:14] <raven^Ron> raven: wait a sec..not all scenes are for pain play...
[22:15] <raven^Ron> I can see that Ken..because in that situation the dominant would still be in charge ..giving the orders..the subs obeying them...
[22:15] <Soulhuntr> Usually so R/r. bottoming is usuallyt he vehicle for masochists - but just getting hurt isn;t bottoming. It is simply a common combination.
[22:15] <Eric^> I think that if you define your bdsm lifestyle around scening, then you would be a top/bottom, using Ken's definition
[22:15] <raven^Ron> okKen..I think I understand..
[22:15] <raven^Ron> possibly Eric..
[22:16] <raven^Ron> In what ways does one keep d/s alive when s/m is not involved?
[22:16] <Qryz> power power power
[22:16] <Eric^> every interaction
[22:16] <raven^Ron> I ask because many seem to see the s/m as a reaffirmation of the power exchange and thus it in some ways, renews the power exchange for the rest of the relationship....
[22:16] <raven^Ron> how so Eric?
[22:16] <arella> do this.. I want this.. give me.. do it.. now.. because I want you to.. and you want to.. because you wanna make me happy
[22:16] <Eric^> Kristy sets up and makes my coffee every day, for example
[22:16] <{sonja}JP> there is actually very very little s/m in my relationship......
[22:16] <raven^Ron> in what way Qryz?
[22:16] <raven^Ron> raven nods to arella..makes sense tome...
[22:17] <raven^Ron> makes sense Eric..so basically..service type things ?
[22:17] * Qryz nods with Eric^ - its all the power exchange, even though its couched in vanilla terms, because *we* have put the meaning to, for instance, mizu's doing the dishes and keeping the kitchen clean, taking out the trash, tending the pets...
[22:17] <{sonja}JP> exactly....but not always service things.......there are things like dress "codes"
[22:17] <Eric^> sort of. More than that though. Service in and of itself doesn't define power
[22:17] <Eric^> it's about who is making the decisions
[22:17] <raven^Ron> why doesn't it Eric?
[22:18] <raven^Ron> ahhhhhhhhhh...ok
[22:18] <raven^Ron> true Qryz...
[22:18] * Qryz nods yet again with Eric^, her neck starting to hurt from all the nodding
[22:18] * arella hands Qryz a neck brace
[22:18] <raven^Ron> the meaning behind the chores, is often what matters..not so much doing them..but the why..
[22:18] <raven^Ron> LOL Qryz
[22:18] <Eric^> If I pay a maid to clean my house, she is performing a service for me, yet this is not a d/s relationship I think we would all agree
[22:18] * {sonja}JP tosses Qryz her Bacardi bottle.......more fun that way.....
[22:18] <raven^Ron> I agree Eric
[22:18] * {sonja}JP 's maid is really cute tho.......
[22:19] <arella> but you don't dom her.. do you sonja?
[22:19] <raven^Ron> Ron: No it's not a d/s relationship..it's a business relationship Eric...
[22:19] <{sonja}JP> no.....i was just being silly
[22:19] <arella> okay.. :)
[22:19] * Qryz hums "everybody ought to have a maid" from "a funny thing happened on the way to the forum" but substitutes 'slave' for 'maid' dumdumdedum
[22:19] <raven^Ron> So would it be that the reason behind the service is what keeps the d/s alive for those who use service in their relationship?
[22:19] <Eric^> so, it's not the service that defines the relationship as d/s either, right?
[22:19] <raven^Ron> LOLOL QRyz..
[22:19] <kiten{Sw}> grinz
[22:19] <Eric^> in my view Ron/raven, yes
[22:19] <{sonja}JP> THATS it raven........that is what i was lookin for
[22:19] <raven^Ron> raven: not the acts Eric...but the emotions behind it I think..the reasons why the service is being done...
[22:19] <arella> control, and the need to have that control.
[22:20] <raven^Ron> Ron: agrees
[22:20] <Qryz> yup
[22:20] <raven^Ron> control how arella?
[22:20] <Eric^> did you submit to my will, did I dominate you
[22:20] <{sonja}JP> the reason behind the way we dress, the way we put on our makeup/do our hair/everything
[22:20] <raven^Ron> Ron: coming from my side of the equation there is a satisfaction in knowing that you can count on those things you want done, being done..and a satisfaction in knowing you can bust their ass if the things aren't done..
[22:21] <Qryz> okay, so which is 'better'?: telling someone to do something and having it done, or them thinking about what would please you and doing it without asking? (and what if it really wasn't something you'd want?)
[22:21] <arella> the same as I said before.. I want you to do this.. and because I want you too.. you will.. because You want to make me happy.. give me what I need..
[22:21] <raven^Ron> in the case of true d/s service...it would be submitting to the dom's will I think Eric..
[22:21] <{sonja}JP> you can bust their ass if the things aren't done..>>>>LOL Ron
[22:21] <raven^Ron> raven: I think the second one Qryz
[22:21] <raven^Ron> Ron: I think the second one Qryz..
[22:21] <raven^Ron> raven: why the second one? (playing dumb here)
[22:21] <Eric^> yep, I think so too
[22:21] <{sonja}JP> i try for the second one Qryz.......but the first one is there a lot as well.....
[22:22] <Soulhuntr> Qryz - iv they are thinking about it that is usually because they are int he right mindset (Soulhuntre = God)
[22:22] <raven^Ron> Ron: Because it shows their dedication, desire to please, taht they are really tehre, not just going through the motions of doing what you told them to do, but instead actively seeking ways to please you...
[22:22] <raven^Ron> ok arella..makes sense to me..and I agree..
[22:22] <raven^Ron> Ron: LOLOL Ken
[22:22] * Qryz grins....mizu folded the towels...correctly this time!
[22:22] <arella> kinda a circular argument raven..
[22:22] <raven^Ron> true arella..
[22:22] <{sonja}JP> <<<actively seeking ways to please you>>> this is it........
[22:22] <raven^Ron> but...makes for discussion :)
[22:23] <mizu> pppptttthhhhh
[22:23] <Eric^> lol@Ken
[22:23] <arella> Soulhuntr is god??
[22:23] <arella> damn.. and here I thought I was being so bad all this time.. I hadn't even scratched the surface
[22:23] <kiten{Sw}> well see in part the pain switches me back into the reality of being submissive...the world kinda of forces U/us all to get testy and pushy and some lap time reminds me that hey wait a second isnt this my DOm and arent i supposed to nod and say Sir.
[22:23] <raven^Ron> raven: I spend alot of time looking for different things to do to make Ron smile...becuase pleasing him is what I like/want/need to do...but, there are times where I just follow his orders as given...
[22:23] <raven^Ron> LOLOL gf
[22:23] <{sonja}JP> if Soulhuntr is God.........i wanna be a NOT Christian
[22:23] <{sonja}JP> LOL
[22:23] * Eric^ laughs
[22:24] <{sonja}JP> ummmmmm, no offense Ken
[22:24] <kiten{Sw}> lmao
[22:24] <raven^Ron> not for me kiten...it isn't the pain that brings my submission..it's my inherent personality that brings it...
[22:24] <raven^Ron> LOLOL sonja
[22:24] * arella frowns
[22:24] <raven^Ron> Ron: laughs
[22:24] <arella> why should someone have to hurt you to make you want to submit?
[22:24] * {sonja}JP giggles a the room makin faces
[22:24] <raven^Ron> they shouldn't arella..
[22:25] <Qryz> but...being put into the right mindset may require...props...especially at first
[22:25] <{sonja}JP> if it were alll centered on the pain, i wouldnt be here......
[22:25] <arella> I know.. was askin.. kiten.. cause I don't understand that point of view
[22:25] <raven^Ron> Ron: well kiten, if you grow in your submission more, you might not need the pain to remind you to be submissive...but you'll still like the pain play..
[22:25] <raven^Ron> true Qryz..
[22:25] <{sonja}JP> i think, Qryz , that leads nicely to the rituals discussion
[22:25] <raven^Ron> so..this begs the question, are there times where a reminder might be neccessary? a reminder of the sub's place?
[22:25] <{sonja}JP> Mine does that for me......recenters me......
[22:26] <{sonja}JP> definitely........
[22:26] <mizu> maybe for some
[22:26] <raven^Ron> I mean come on..in the real world..people get frustrated, agravated, cranky..even subs...soooo..seemy question..
[22:26] <Eric^> it is a falsehood to think that you will establish dominance and that it will then endure for all time
[22:26] <arella> maybe when she's out of sorts.. angry.. upset.. and can't .. verbalize this
[22:26] <raven^Ron> Ron: I think that sometimes reminders are needed, but it doesn't always have to be pain play...could be a tone of vocie, a word, or a look
[22:27] <raven^Ron> raven hates Ron's "looks"
[22:27] <raven^Ron> Why Eric?
[22:27] <{sonja}JP> any more than just "being Mommy" can make a kid behave........you have to constantly remind them who is incharge or they will walk out of the boundaries
[22:27] <Eric^> no, dominance and submission are not permanent states that never change. If you establish dominance and then expect the submissive behavior to continue without continuing to be dominant, the reason for the submission is no longer there
[22:27] <kiten{Sw}> well i see see your point..but my personality..is at war with numerous other factors in life
[22:27] <raven^Ron> as they get older sonja..reminders are not needed constantly..but yes, you are correct..
[22:27] <kiten{Sw}> agrees with ROn too and hopes she does grow more
[22:27] <raven^Ron> true Eric...
[22:28] <Qryz> and as they age...the types of reminders required change as well
[22:28] * {sonja}JP thinks Master finds her hair waaaaaaay to convenient for such reminders.....
[22:28] <raven^Ron> it is indeed an exchange..the sub submits ..gives control to the dominant..in return, the dominant uses that control (dominating/domination)..and thus there is an exchange..
[22:28] <Eric^> and the longer too people are in a d/s relationship the less often you will have to re-establish that you are the dome.... in other words correcting and modifying behavior
[22:28] <{sonja}JP> true Qryz and raven
[22:28] <raven^Ron> true Qryz
[22:28] <{sonja}JP> does it then become boring?........truly curious
[22:28] <Eric^> I think it's the other way around r/R. The dom dominates, causing the sub to submit
[22:28] <arella> why would it be boring?
[22:29] <{sonja}JP> i am Enjoying the learning process......well......most of it
[22:29] <raven^Ron> raven: I think anything can become "routine" and thus "boring"..and even d/s relationships can get in to a rut...
[22:29] <kiten{Sw}> oh so toally knows what sonja means
[22:29] <arella> your both getting what you want/need.. there's always something new to try.. something new to learn
[22:29] <raven^Ron> raven: I understand Eric..but it still works the same way..it's still an exchange...I think?
[22:29] <Eric^> you can't have one with out the other
[22:29] <{sonja}JP> that is true........one day I might write a scene report about needles........i doubt it, but you never know
[22:30] <raven^Ron> Ron: I don't think it can become boring..but it can become "taken for granted"..and then the sub usually will step out of line, just a little, to see if it's still there...
[22:30] <Eric^> I can be dominant in personality, but I have to have someone on the other side to dominate
[22:30] <raven^Ron> raven: makes sense to me Ron...and I agree that does happen..probably during extremely stressful times..
[22:30] <raven^Ron> true Eric
[22:30] <raven^Ron> yes Eric..I agree
[22:30] <kiten{Sw}> yep..and hen the sub gets yanked back into line
[22:30] <raven^Ron> Ron: Not to say that the dom can't step in andpush a little bit to re-establish the power exchange..it works both ways..
[22:31] <raven^Ron> not necessarily yanked kiten..for me, and I'll be honest, there are times when I get a bit more sarcastic than usual..but not "over the line"..just enough to get that "look"..or "tone of voice"..technically it's topping from the bottom..
[22:31] <{sonja}JP> right now......Master does that by adding something "new"
[22:31] <Eric^> hmmmmm, if Kristy is stepping out of line to see if "it's still there" that is a quick way to get in serious trouble. There is a difference between making a mistake and intentionally crossing boundaries
[22:32] <raven^Ron> but..in real life..things get hectic..things get crazy sometimes..especially with kids around...so sometimes the active d/sis not blatant...so a small reminder is nice to have..
[22:32] <{sonja}JP> what if it is done subconsciously Eric?
[22:32] <raven^Ron> I didn't say cross the line Eric..just get close to it..not actually cross it...
[22:32] <Eric^> then I am slipping somewhere
[22:32] <arella> sometimes.. if things lax.. you can unintentionally find yourself pushing.. not because you mean to.. but because subconsiously.. you need the reminder that there IS a line there
[22:32] <{sonja}JP> i see kids do it all the time......i dont think it is a stretch to say that a sub might not subconsciously push a bit when they feel a vacancy.....
[22:32] <raven^Ron> why would it be the dom is slipping Eric if it's because of every day life stressors?
[22:33] <raven^Ron> it can happen sonja..
[22:33] * {sonja}JP wonders if she and arella could just - well - use one kb :)
[22:33] <raven^Ron> Ron: LOL sonja...sonja, you can't share arella's mind..there's no room left..raven andI are in there already..
[22:33] <arella> my head is gonna esplode!
[22:33] <raven^Ron> raven thinks arella's head is getting crowded
[22:33] <raven^Ron> LOLOL gf
[22:33] <Eric^> if you are pushing at me to see if I will control you, then I am probably not controlling you, right?
[22:33] * arella giggles
[22:33] <{sonja}JP> LOL
[22:34] <raven^Ron> raven nods..good point Eric.
[22:34] <Soulhuntr> I fully expect service to including putting my issues above hers, and if she decideds to push at me to reassure herself and her own fears when I am busy with other things she will get reminded of somethign alright... like what sleeping in the basement is like :) Service is about becomming more than a slave to your own urges.. not giving in to them.
[22:34] <raven^Ron> raven thinks for a moment, shifting to a different point of view (sorry my mind is getting slower)
[22:34] <{sonja}JP> yes......good point
[22:34] <arella> well.. in the situation raven is talking about.. perhaps you are thinking of 15 other things.. and this one just happens to slip behind for abit
[22:35] <{sonja}JP> ummmmm Ken.......do any of your subs have children?
[22:35] <raven^Ron> Ron: You may be controlling her..but she may feel a need to have your attention, even if just for amoment with that "excuse me??" look in your eyes..
[22:35] <Soulhuntr> sonja - no. Why, would it matter if they did?
[22:35] <raven^Ron> raven: I can see that Eric..and it's true..if the sub has to push..it's becaue the dom is not actively controlling them...makes sense..
[22:35] <Eric^> I agree with that too Ken. What I was trying to point out is that essentially there is no good reason on the submissive's part to push for my control. Either she is doing it intentionally OR I have screwed up somewhere OR she is failing to put my needs first
[22:35] <{sonja}JP> a bit......i am not saying that the Dom shouldnt still be the focus........but i think it takes a LOT more effort
[22:35] <raven^Ron> raven: I understand Ken..
[22:36] <{sonja}JP> and can sometimes be ALMOST impossible
[22:36] <Soulhuntr> personally, I don't "actively" control anyone anyway - I act as I wish... if that inspires her to submit fine... if not, well,t hats ok too :)
[22:36] <raven^Ron> ROn: how would you be screwing up somewhere Eric?
[22:36] <{sonja}JP> ~~~THAT would probably drive me batty Ken.....but that's me
[22:36] <Soulhuntr> sonja - the struggle between the childs needs and the dominants is a valid one - but if she is pushing me to "control her" then that is all for her - and has 0 to do with her parental status.
[22:37] <{sonja}JP> i was going back to the "distracted harried sub" who accidentally let behavior slip .... yada yada yada......never mind
[22:37] <raven^Ron> raven: however Eric, there are times where the sub and the dom have to focus elsewhere for an extended period of time (say illness in a child, new job, moving, etc)...and the dom doesn't use the control because his focus is elsewhere, and the sub needs to *feel* it ..sort of to give her back her balance/anchor????(not sure that came out right)
[22:37] <Soulhuntr> ah - well thats entirely diff sonja, and understandable in most situations.
[22:38] <raven^Ron> Ron: Ken is human!!!!!!!!!!!!OMG!!!!!!!!!!
[22:38] <raven^Ron> raven looks to see what prompted that response...
[22:38] * arella laughs
[22:38] <{sonja}JP> LOL Ron
[22:38] <raven^Ron> show me Ron
[22:38] * arella can't stop giggling
[22:38] <kiten{Sw}> grinz...
[22:38] <raven^Ron> raven laughs..ok...I get it now..sorry..typing for two is hard..
[22:39] <Eric^> raven: it is situation dependent. Is she manipulating me to control her? Or is it a push to see if I'm alive? Neither will get a positive reaction of the sort she wants, but one will get a very negative reaction and one a slightly negative reaction
[22:39] <kiten{Sw}> wonders if subs often feel tha they regress in age sometimes?
[22:39] <raven^Ron> sonja, I was speaking of distracted harried sub...but includeddistracted harried dom too...life gets messy
[22:39] <Soulhuntr> ::shrugs:: People are human. I can understand mistakes. It wont stop me from punishing her... because she can always get better... but it isn't the same thing as defiance :)
[22:39] <Eric^> yes kiten
[22:39] <raven^Ron> Ron: Sorry Ken..I've blown your reputation.. <laugh>
[22:39] <raven^Ron> that's what I was meaning Ken..thank you :)
[22:39] * arella figured out Ken was human a coupel weeks ago after reading his blog.. she almost fainted
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> right...........sonja doesnt do defiance........ever
[22:39] <raven^Ron> ROn: I was thinking of the second one..too see if I'm alive..
[22:39] <Eric^> Kristy and I have a very Daddy/girl oriented relationship in terms of how we interact. It's very parental
[22:40] <raven^Ron> raven: makes sense to me...the reactions would not be "playful" for sure...but, I don't think the sub pushing due to a lapse in the d/s is looking for "play"...
[22:40] <raven^Ron> raven figured it out a coupel weeks ago from reading his blog too..was quite nice to finally have some proof..
[22:41] <kiten{Sw}> *nods* kiten oft varies from 26 to 16 to 6 ~s~
[22:41] <raven^Ron> can d/s lapse?
[22:41] * Soulhuntr wonders if this "humanity" thing is rerlated to the email I get all the time from peopel going "Oh my god, your serious! you really do expect peopel to live this way!"
[22:41] <raven^Ron> LOL Ken..no related to another post..I'll answer in private if you wish...but it's not on topic..
[22:41] <Soulhuntr> yes, D/s can lapse, and often does.
[22:41] <arella> yes.. of course it can raven..
[22:41] <{sonja}JP> Eric: ours is similar.......Master thinks most D/s is Daddy/little girl oriented....in some sense
[22:41] <raven^Ron> raven: I mean..under the stress of the busy lives many lead on adaily basis..can it get "lostin the shuffle"...
[22:42] <Soulhuntr> no. I cant see that happening in any of my relationships.
[22:42] <Soulhuntr> my busy life includes a thousand orders a day (about :) :) :) ) - so it is impossible to forget about the hierarchy
[22:43] <raven^Ron> Ron: Yes it can lapse...but just like a marriage, or any other comitted relationship, you need to work at a d/s relationship..
[22:43] <Soulhuntr> Kimiko's "busy life" is defined by her service to me, so the busier she gets the more she is reminded :)
[22:43] <raven^Ron> I don't know if I would say my relationship is daddy/little girl type stuff...
[22:43] <raven^Ron> Makes sense Ken :)
[22:43] <raven^Ron> Ron: good point Ken
[22:43] <raven^Ron> raven: very good point Ken..
[22:44] <Eric^> not like actually taking on the role of a little girl. I mean that it is parental in nature
[22:44] <raven^Ron> however, not every sub works for their dominant or even with their dominant...so would you say in such a case, keeping the d/s alive would require more active participation?
[22:44] * {sonja}JP agrees with Eric......but thinks not all are like that necessarily
[22:44] <raven^Ron> could you clarify it a bit Eric,maybe an example or two..so I can honestly respond?
[22:45] <raven^Ron> and so I can understand better..please?
[22:45] <Eric^> hmmmmm, I am the father figure of the house. I set direction for the house, I make decisions on money, etc. When something needs to be decided, it is brought to me.
[22:45] <Soulhuntr> r/R - not that I can see. but then, I cnanot imagine having a d/s relationship that didn't involve me structuring her career and decisions. so even if she didnt work for me, her job would be one I chose or approved of. In a sense, it would be mine then.
[22:46] <raven^Ron> I understand that Ken...personally, I wouldn't want to work in a job Ron hated...partly because I don't like upsetting him..and my working somewhere/at something he hates..would upset him...
[22:46] <Eric^> the level of responsibility has been reduced from the level that a normal adult is expected to have
[22:46] <{sonja}JP> 's a matter of setting boundaries and punishing when the sub steps out of those boundaries.....for us
[22:47] <raven^Ron> Ahhhhhh makes sense Eric..but what about in a relationship were the sub handles the money and makes most of the decisions regarding it (of course showing her decisions, for final approval, to the dom)
[22:47] <raven^Ron> then I'd have to say that mine and Ron's relationship does not fall under daddy/child very often...though, it does at times and in some areas..
[22:47] <raven^Ron> it's a mix I guess..
[22:47] <Eric^> every relationship is a mix of many things
[22:48] <{sonja}JP> most are
[22:49] <raven^Ron> I have a feeling the discussion has come to a natural end for the evening? or does anyone have anything they wish to add?
[22:51] <raven^Ron> (END OF DISCUSSION FOR LOGGING PURPOSES) To View Part I Of This discussion click HERE