Presents:
BDSM Discussion 36
Romance
In BDSM
All Comments Posted Here With Permission Of The Participants
[21:06] *
rvn^Ron says Hello and welcome to #Leather_and_Roses' weekly discussions
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[21:07] <rvn^Ron> I hope you enjoy tonight's discussion, the topic is Romance in BDSM
[21:08] <rvn^Ron> let's start off with..What is romance?
[21:08] <nessa{JW}> its what i fantasize about when reading my favorite trashy novels
[21:09] <arella{R}> generally the .. action of showing loving feelings?
[21:09] <Rob`-`> the sharing of love
[21:09] <ananda{R}> the way in which a person expresses their affection for another?
[21:09] <{sonja}JP> i call it "being SWEET" but with someone you love....
[21:09] <rvn^Ron> raven: I think it is things done specifically to garner a feeling of love in one's partner..
[21:09] * ananda{R} nods
[21:09] * arella{R} thinks you can share love without neccasarily being romantic
[21:10] <rvn^Ron> Ron: certain imbalance of brain chemicals that causes men to act foolishly..
[21:10] <rvn^Ron> raven looks at Ron...uh huh..
[21:10] <ananda{R}> lol
[21:10] <rvn^Ron> Ron: Ok..it's more than that..
[21:10] <Rob`-`> lol yeah, thats it
[21:10] <{sonja}JP> fooolishly?
[21:10] <nessa{JW}> umm thats a balance that makes men act wonderfully <G>
[21:11] <EZRiser> makes us tolerate alot more than we normally would too ..
[21:11] <rvn^Ron> Ron: I like sonja's answer..being "sweet"..
[21:11] <ananda{R}> Roamer said you are mistaken Ron, it is alcoholt hat makes you act foolishly! lol
[21:11] <{sonja}JP> and the smart guys figure out what it does to women...........
[21:11] <rvn^Ron> raven agrees with Roamer!!!
[21:11] <ananda{R}> lol
[21:11] <ananda{R}> good point sonja
[21:11] <rvn^Ron> what does it do to women sonja?
[21:11] * arella{R} agrees with Roamer!
[21:12] <{sonja}JP> makes em gushy (often in more ways than one) and Responsive
[21:12] <ananda{R}> when Roamer is romantic with me, I feel more submissive
[21:12] <ananda{R}> more want to please him
[21:12] * ananda{R} is looking up the def in the dict.
[21:12] * sharon` points at sonja and says *what she said*
[21:12] <{sonja}JP> definitely ananda.....
[21:13] <{sonja}JP> *VBS*
[21:13] <rvn^Ron> so would you say romance has a place in BDSM?
[21:13] <rvn^Ron> Ron: It can, it doesn't have to, but it can..
[21:13] <nessa{JW}> Romance makes me fall in love all over again
[21:13] <sharon`> Absolutely, although I would not say it is necessary
[21:13] <{sonja}JP> only in good Doms............was that on the list Ron?
[21:13] <simi{R}> It depends on what the focus of the relationship is, I would think
[21:13] <rvn^Ron> Ron: The act of romance, by that I mean the buying flowers, attentiveness, care and concern, can be used to bind two people together..and not to a bedpost either..
[21:14] <ananda{R}> it is a part of our relationship for sure
[21:14] <{sonja}JP> and it also depends on the people.....not all women are concerned about romance....
[21:14] <rvn^Ron> Ron: no some bad doms use romance sonja.. pull them in, get them..the do whatever it is that makes them "bad"..
[21:14] <ananda{R}> good point sonja, not everyoen has the mushy, gushy personality type
[21:14] <{sonja}JP> true raven
[21:14] <rvn^Ron> raven: it's a part of my relationship as well ananda..but i don't see it as an aboslute neccessity..
[21:14] <sharon`> Now there is _my_ idea of romance, being tied to a bedpost, while receiving flowers, attentiveness and care. <g>
[21:14] <rvn^Ron> I like that sharon!!
[21:15] <rvn^Ron> Ron: chuckles..
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> me too sharon
[21:15] <ananda{R}> good one sharon
[21:15] <rvn^Ron> Ron whispers Oh shit in between laughing..
[21:15] <rvn^Ron> Ron: good one sharon!
[21:15] <ananda{R}> I think being tied up with rope to be quite romantic
[21:15] * simi{R} smacks sharon
[21:15] * sharon` thanks simi
[21:15] <rvn^Ron> Ron wonders when sharon receives roses does she like thepetals or the thorns best..
[21:15] <rvn^Ron> raven: thorns!
[21:15] * rvn^Ron giggles
[21:15] <ananda{R}> lol
[21:15] <sharon`> they are best when mixed. :--)
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> a big part of what was missing in my marriage was that my ex had 0 romance ability........i thrive on it with Master.....
[21:15] <rvn^Ron> well the thorns make great scratching implements! ;)
[21:15] <ananda{R}> can't really enjoy the beauty of a rose if you don't get stuck by a thorn or two, now can you?
[21:15] * simi{R} likes the petals under me and the thorns in me
[21:16] <rvn^Ron> are there times/situations where romance is not part of the relationship?
[21:16] <simi{R}> Definitely
[21:16] <sharon`> Certainly.
[21:16] <rvn^Ron> Ron: no there isn't..even during punishment the care and concern that is part of that romance is there..
[21:17] <rvn^Ron> raven: true, but the goal of making the other person all "mushy" is not there..
[21:17] <rvn^Ron> Ron: true
[21:17] <sharon`> I have several BDSM relationships in which romance plays no part
[21:17] <simi{R}> I see love and romance as separate things
[21:17] <{sonja}JP> that is what i would have thought.........but when wouldnt it be?
[21:17] <EZRiser> there should never be a time with out it .. or the love that underlies it .. its an absolute must
[21:17] <rvn^Ron> raven: I think they are seperate things simi..though one is often present within the other..
[21:17] <sharon`> I can be play partners without romance.
[21:17] <simi{R}> Agreed, raven
[21:17] <rvn^Ron> Ron: THank you EZ!
[21:17] <simi{R}> I love Ror and likewise, however.. we aren't always romantic
[21:17] <{sonja}JP> but a longtime.......loving relationship?
[21:18] <rvn^Ron> when wouldn't it be what sonja?
[21:18] <sharon`> I also had a domme for a long time who was in a monogamous relationship and romance was simply not a part of our relationship.
[21:18] * simi{R} can't wait to romance sharon
[21:18] <simi{R}> sorry folks, will try to contain myself
[21:18] * sharon` smiles
[21:19] * simi{R} smacks seld
[21:19] <rvn^Ron> not a problem simi
[21:19] <{sonja}JP> when wouldnt it be part of a relationship?
[21:19] <simi{R}> self
[21:19] <rvn^Ron> in a relationship that is not based on romantic love sonja..
[21:19] <rvn^Ron> Ron: Some bdsm relationship are just based on power exchange..
[21:19] <sharon`> Exactly, Ron.
[21:19] <ananda{R}> good point, Ron
[21:19] <simi{R}> While romance is a part of our relationship, it is not the same sort of romance that we had in the first couple of years together
[21:20] <sharon`> My relationship with my domme, for example, was negotiated at the outset.
[21:20] <sharon`> I was submissive to her. She was my protector. But her love and her romantic feelings were reserved for her husband/slave
[21:20] <{sonja}JP> i can understand that.......(when it is not a love relationship, just play or such) but if it is an "in love" situation, when wouldnt the romance be a part of it?
[21:20] <rvn^Ron> Ron nods: some relationships are totally negotiated, totally power exchange..it's not about love..
[21:21] <simi{R}> Well sonja, I can speak for us..
[21:21] <simi{R}> Often there's little to find romantic about our day-to-day... homework, kids, cat puking, dead mice at the doorstep, dinner, cleaning...
[21:21] <rvn^Ron> raven: possibly in a formal situation, public situation, punishment or a scene who's focus is not to make the sub feel all mushy..
[21:21] <arella{R}> but you can Love someone, and share that without being.. Romantic persay, giving flowers, hugs, showing great amounts of affection
[21:22] <rvn^Ron> raven: a scene that is focusing on tolerance of the sub..or the sub withstanding the pain from a sadist dominant beacuse he likes the pain..
[21:22] <{sonja}JP> ok.........but if HE cleans up the cat puke, so you dont have to, I would consider that "romantic" to a degree.....
[21:22] <simi{R}> I consider it mandatory!
[21:22] * simi{R} grins
[21:22] <rvn^Ron> Ron: would that be like me doing a set of dishse sonja?
[21:22] <rvn^Ron> raven: Hell yes!
[21:22] * sharon` chuckles at how low our standards have fallen
[21:23] <arella{R}> so your being romantic when you do the dishs Ron?
[21:23] <{sonja}JP> only if it is not something you normallly do.
[21:23] <simi{R}> cat puke is a hard limit for me
[21:23] * arella{R} thought it was just really helpful
[21:23] <rvn^Ron> Ron: sometimes arella..
[21:23] <{sonja}JP> helpful to you.........romantic to raven?
[21:23] <rvn^Ron> raven: when he does something really helpful doesn't it make you feel kind of mushy arella? it does me on most occasions..
[21:23] <ananda{R}> Roamer runs my bath for me everymorning...deffo a part of his routine and I think it is incredibly romantic
[21:23] <simi{R}> Ror's helpful, god the man is a saint at times. but I don't see it as romantic
[21:23] <arella{R}> well, yes kinda
[21:23] <rvn^Ron> Ron laughs at cat puke limit line
[21:24] <simi{R}> LoL
[21:24] <rvn^Ron> raven: I guess I see it partly that way because it is still rather new to me simi..
[21:24] * arella{R} thinks she's glad the cats here don't puke much.. ickkkersssss
[21:24] <rvn^Ron> raven: cat puke..YUCK!! Definite Ron job!
[21:24] <simi{R}> Yup
[21:24] <rvn^Ron> Ron: Nathan's! Sam's or Rachel's! they're not my cats!!!!
[21:24] <{sonja}JP> ok..........its getting confusing.......the running of bathwater is romantic (to me) cause its not a "job" that has to be done.........when i said "not a regular thing" i meant - chores, etc
[21:24] <rvn^Ron> raven giggles..
[21:25] <sharon`> The same act can be romantic or not depending upon the relationship of the parties to whom it is directed. Case in point, Ron washing dishes--romantic to raven, helpful to arella
[21:25] <ananda{R}> good point sharon
[21:25] <simi{R}> What I find romantic is when he's planned something special for me... a night out, a 1st class dinner, a surprise trip... and it doesn't have to be a surprise, necessarily
[21:25] <rvn^Ron> I can see that sonja..
[21:26] <rvn^Ron> Ron: I can see that simi..but sometimes doing just the little things can be done out of love and affection..
[21:26] <simi{R}> I know he's going to do something awesome for my birthdays, and it's the planning and thought that makes it romantic to me
[21:26] <arella{R}> yes.. but.. Ron doesn't Have to do those things.. he doesnt' Have to do laundry.. or dishs.. he gives us sunday as not having to do anything, and I can see why raven would see that as romantic
[21:26] <{sonja}JP> i find that romantic.......but i am big into the "lots of little things" - like the song Master sang for me and sent me....
[21:26] <sharon`> For me, romantic is almost anything that makes me the focus of some sort of positive, loving attention.
[21:26] <rvn^Ron> raven: makes sense simi..
[21:26] <simi{R}> But that's romantic, sonja :)
[21:26] <ananda{R}> I like that sharon
[21:26] <simi{R}> When Ror leaves me little notes in my purse for me to find at work later in the day... telling me how much he values me
[21:27] <rvn^Ron> Ron: I agree, that was special and romantic of JP sonja..
[21:27] <simi{R}> that's romantic
[21:27] <rvn^Ron> raven: yes that is romantic.. :)
[21:27] <simi{R}> It's a thoughtful gesture...
[21:27] <{sonja}JP> right......that is one of the many little things he does, the consistency of that, to me, is romantic....
[21:27] <simi{R}> and I suppose that him pitching in could be taken as romantic, but it's expected in our house
[21:28] <{sonja}JP> right simi, that is just a split of chores....
[21:28] <simi{R}> So I don't see it as special to me
[21:28] <simi{R}> maybe I should?
[21:28] <rvn^Ron> raven: Ron expects to help out around the house simi...I don't expect it of him (least not yet, but I can't say that won't change over time)..so to me, it's still an unexpected thing..
[21:28] <simi{R}> Okay, I can see that, raven
[21:28] * arella{R} giggles
[21:28] <arella{R}> the first time he started doing dishs.. we were sure he was going to kill us soon afterwards
[21:28] <rvn^Ron> raven: it is most special to me when Ron comes home, obviously having had a difficult day, and still helps out rather than just leave everything to someone else..
[21:29] <simi{R}> I remember a time when I wouldn't THINK of him working in the house. Those days are GONE!
[21:29] <sharon`> But sonja and simi, what if he does something that is usually _your_ chore just to please you? Does that become somewhat romantic?
[21:29] <rvn^Ron> raven; YES arella!!! I was terrified!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[21:29] <rvn^Ron> Ron laughs..
[21:29] <{sonja}JP> Yes, sharon
[21:29] <simi{R}> It's thoughtful, sharon.... it's kind, and it's appreciated. It's heart-warming, so I suppose it could be considered romantic.
[21:29] <rvn^Ron> raven: it is most special to me when Ron comes home, obviously having had a difficult day, and still helps out rather than just leave everything to someone else..
[21:29] <{sonja}JP> that is what i was talking about in the first place.......doesnt count if it is HIS chore
[21:29] <rvn^Ron> whoops....wrong line
[21:29] <rvn^Ron> would you say there could be such a thing as too much romance in a bdsm relationship? if so, would it negatively affect the power exchange?
[21:29] <rvn^Ron> that's what I wanted!
[21:30] <simi{R}> Hmmmm.... I don't know
[21:30] * ananda{R} ponders raven's comment
[21:30] <{sonja}JP> not for me.....
[21:30] <rvn^Ron> raven: I don't see anything basic around the house as "Ron's chore"..
[21:30] <rvn^Ron> raven: it doesn't negatively affect me either sonja..
[21:30] <simi{R}> I know there are times when 'love' gets in the way of structure
[21:31] <simi{R}> (not that we're terribly structured)
[21:31] <rvn^Ron> Ron: I would say tehre could be too muhc romance when it interferes with the abilitiy to enforce the rules or structure of the relationship..
[21:31] <simi{R}> I just had a thought that makes me feel really weird
[21:31] <{sonja}JP> doing without those little romantic gestures negatively affects me - makes me wonder "why"
[21:31] <arella{R}> whats that simi
[21:31] <sharon`> I have seen people criticize doms for being too overtly romantic with their submissives. To me that is just nonsense. I think each relationship is unique and we have no business judging how much romance is appropriate
[21:31] <ananda{R}> good point, sharon
[21:31] <rvn^Ron> Ron: here! here! sharon! I would take great offense to someone telling me taht I am too loving..
[21:32] *** simi{R} (GentlGodde@AC9B22E1.ipt.aol.com) Quit (Read error to simi{R}[AC9B22E1.ipt.aol.com]: Connection reset by peer)
[21:32] <rvn^Ron> raven: I agree sharon..but for purpose of discussion, I'm not requesting judgements, just opinions and discussion of stated opinions..
[21:32] <rvn^Ron> raven: I think for me, there could come a point where the romance was "too much"...
[21:32] <rvn^Ron> raven: But I haven't reached it yet..<giggle>
[21:34] <arella{R}> wb simi, whats your scary thought?
[21:34] <sharon`> I don't disagree raven. I personally don't need all that much romance. In fact if a would be dom approaches me with too romantic an attitude, I almost want to gag. I really don't want to ever have the feeling that I have the upper hand. And feeling like the dom was nuts about me, would make me suspect I did.
[21:34] <simi{R}> That my collar isn't tied to any sort of service, or standard...
[21:34] <simi{R}> It's a collar based on love, not performance
[21:34] <rvn^Ron> raven: how so sharon?
[21:34] <arella{R}> why is that a wierd/scary thing simi?
[21:35] <rvn^Ron> raven: that is a scary thought simi..
[21:35] <simi{R}> Well, it doesn't have the symbolism that a collar does for ... lemme start over
[21:35] <rvn^Ron> raven: because in a way arella, it would be saying the collar and what it stands for doesn't really matter..
[21:35] <simi{R}> Exactly
[21:35] * arella{R} doesn't see that
[21:35] <arella{R}> just because it's for love, it doesn't mean other things aren't expected, does it?
[21:36] * simi{R} thinks
[21:36] <rvn^Ron> raven: the collar..is a symbol of a relationship, but also of a submissive. in that manner it symbolizes what the submissive does: service and such...if the romance got out of hand that structure, that "service" would no longer be the basis of the relationship..thus that symbol of the collar is gone..
[21:37] <simi{R}> True
[21:37] <rvn^Ron> raven: I think that goes back to love getting in the way of D/s sometimes..
[21:38] <simi{R}> You know, I feel really icky thinking about this now. No offense to anyone.
[21:39] * rvn^Ron hands simi{R} anti icky powder
[21:39] <simi{R}> LoL
[21:39] <sharon`> Here's a radical thought--does a collar have to imply service? I have never thought it was necessarily tied to service. Ownership yes, but service no. Kind of like you can own a dog and it can serve you (border collie, german shepherd watch dog) or you can simply have it for the pleasure it affords you. ( the french poodle or cocker spaniel.)
[21:39] * simi{R} is most likely a french poodle then
[21:39] * sharon` starts slinking towards the door.
[21:40] <rvn^Ron> Ron: I guess forsome it does not have to.....
[21:40] * sharon` nods at simi
[21:40] * {sonja}JP doesnt think that is a radical thought at all
[21:40] * arella{R} grabs sharon
[21:40] <simi{R}> I suppose you are right, Sharon....
[21:40] <EZRiser> ahh .. but the cocker spaniel holds down the yard, sharon .. keeps it from floatin away
[21:40] <sharon`> yep, I always thought you were a poodle
[21:40] <ananda{R}> my collar was/is for ownership and service
[21:40] <arella{R}> that makes sense sharon.. don't leave
[21:40] * rvn^Ron grabs sharon` and pulls her back in.....Your not getting away that easy
[21:40] <simi{R}> I keep having awful thoughts
[21:40] <ananda{R}> but you have a good point indeed, sharon
[21:40] <rvn^Ron> raven: good point sharon..the collar seems to have different meanings for different people..
[21:40] <sharon`> Okay, okay. I just didn't want to turn eveyone's world upside down.
[21:40] <simi{R}> I'm not going to come here anymore :)
[21:41] * simi{R} is kidding
[21:41] <{sonja}JP> spread them around simi so they wont feel so awful
[21:41] <rvn^Ron> what?!?!?
[21:41] <rvn^Ron> oh..whew
[21:41] <simi{R}> Ror's reading also.... he agrees with me.
[21:41] <ananda{R}> you are challenging thought processes, sharon` and that is a good thing
[21:41] <simi{R}> But it doesn't make me feel good
[21:41] <rvn^Ron> very good thing ananda :)
[21:42] * ananda{R} doesn't understand why you feel badly simi
[21:42] <rvn^Ron> raven: why do you feel bad simi?
[21:42] <arella{R}> simi.. I don't think.. that it's a bad thing for a collar to be based on love, as long as the other Parts of the relationship, service, power exchange aren't overshadowed
[21:42] <simi{R}> I can see that, arella....
[21:42] <rvn^Ron> raven: it's a balancing thing arella...in that case it's a matter of keeping the balance..though certain situations may cause the balance to shift one way or the other..
[21:42] <{sonja}JP> what exactly is "service" then?
[21:43] <arella{R}> you can honestly love someone to death, and still tell them Do this Now, because I said so, I don't care if you like it, i do.
[21:43] <rvn^Ron> raven: for example, the sub gets very ill..needs to be in bed..the stress on the sub's service may be lifted for a while and the dom may become more attentive/caring of the sub..thus shifting the balance to the caring side more than the service side..
[21:43] <sharon`> Not having the service gene, I guess I see this very differently.
[21:43] <simi{R}> Please share sharon
[21:43] <simi{R}> I really don't have the service gene either.
[21:44] <rvn^Ron> raven: honestly sonja, service is defined differently by everyone..to me, it is doing things (either specifically ordered or not) with the express intention of pleasing the dominant (non sexual things, though sexual activities can be included) ..
[21:44] <sharon`> I see submissiveness as having many different components. Service is only one of them. Not necessary in order to be submissive
[21:44] <sharon`> I suspect this is blasphemy.
[21:44] <rvn^Ron> raven: no it isn't neccessary sharon...
[21:44] <rvn^Ron> LOLOL nope sharon..not to me anyway..
[21:44] <{sonja}JP> ABSOLUTELY NOT sharon
[21:44] <arella{R}> are we gonna burn her at the stake?
[21:44] <simi{R}> No, sharon... you're my ray of hope here :)
[21:44] <rvn^Ron> raven: one can be submissive without enjoying service
[21:45] <simi{R}> I guess I don't know what to say at this point
[21:45] * simi{R} sits back and listens
[21:45] <rvn^Ron> Ron: how could one be submissive without enjoying service?
[21:45] <sharon`> I admire people who are service oriented but I don't think they are *better* submissives because of it.
[21:45] <arella{R}> every person is different, just as every relationship is different, i don't think there are.. requirements
[21:45] <rvn^Ron> raven can't explain it very well ..so waits for sharon or simi to answer that one..
[21:45] * {sonja}JP wonders what exactly is meant by service though........ are we talking chores? or serving dinner? or sex? or what?
[21:45] <rvn^Ron> Ron: raven without words?? OMG It's happened again!! Quick!! what's the temperature in hell??
[21:46] <simi{R}> ROFL!
[21:46] * arella{R} laughs
[21:46] <rvn^Ron> raven: to me sonja..all of that is service..
[21:46] <rvn^Ron> raven giggles..gee thanks Ron..
[21:46] <sharon`> Well, I may be the wrong person to tackle this, but I see submissiveness as being willing to defer to another. Not necessarily to serve them.
[21:46] <simi{R}> I don't think much about service... (knows Ror is shocked by this)
[21:46] <simi{R}> He said, "I'll alert the media"
[21:47] * simi{R} thinks hard about just how much she defers
[21:47] <raven^Ron> raven: I agree sharon..being willing to defer to anohter is submission..
[21:47] * {sonja}JP would be just as happy with a full-time maid (as would Master)........He would rather my efforts be expended soley on His desires
[21:47] * ananda{R} is not service oriented at work or in general, but am with Roamer, not that I jump everytime he needs a cuppa or something, but I like taking care if that makes sense,,,but I don't do it with everyone
[21:48] <ananda{R}> I liek that idea sonja
[21:48] * arella{R} seems to need to take care of anyone she cares about.
[21:48] <{sonja}JP> me doing the dishes would nto be a thrill for him..........less i was doing it nakey :)
[21:48] <raven^Ron> raven: I am quite service orientated..do things to take care of anyone I care about if at all possible..
[21:48] <raven^Ron> Ron: I agree with ananda..
[21:48] <raven^Ron> LOL sonja
[21:48] <raven^Ron> Ron: WooHoo sonja!!!!!!!
[21:48] <sharon`> And that is my point, arella--some submissives feel that need to *serve* and be useful. Others don't.
[21:49] <raven^Ron> raven knew Ronw as going to like that nakey dish washing comment.. LOLOL
[21:49] <arella{R}> it's not so much.. the need to feel useful sharon.. as..
[21:49] * arella{R} tilts her head
[21:49] <{sonja}JP> i do the "jump" thing with drinks/food/getting stuff.........but scrubbing the floors????
[21:49] <raven^Ron> this is true sharon..and it doesn't make either one a better..just different..
[21:49] * {sonja}JP rhyms
[21:49] <{sonja}JP> rhymes even
[21:49] <arella{R}> maybe it is being useful, I can't think of another way to say it
[21:49] <simi{R}> Is it about being depended on?
[21:50] <raven^Ron> raven: to me sonja, scrubbing the floors is not something that turns him or me on..but I look at it this way, it keeps his house clean, thus more pleasant for him...he may not even notice it, but i know it's there..
[21:50] <{sonja}JP> but if you had a maid.........would that detract from your service to him?
[21:50] *** ananda{R} is now known as Roamer`
[21:50] <raven^Ron> raven: not neccessarily simi...because quite simply if the service were completely unwatned, I wouldn't do it..
[21:50] <{sonja}JP> the house is clean - and you are a lot less tired and your back feels better - (much easier to jump your bones now *giggle*)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
[21:51] <raven^Ron> raven: to a certain extent yes, but since I can't do alot of heavy housework anyway, the housework is not my major service to Ron...it's littler things..
[21:51] <raven^Ron> Ron: I agree with sonja..I'd rather have raven feeling better and jumpable..
[21:52] <raven^Ron> raven shakes her head..missing my point and I can't think of any other way to explain it..
[21:52] <raven^Ron> and since service is not the topic..lets get back to romance..
[21:52] <{sonja}JP> but then again........if no one else is available to do the chores.......i wouldnt want HIM to do it
[21:52] <Roamer`> hehehe
[21:52] * Roamer` wondered ......
[21:52] <{sonja}JP> ooops....sorry
[21:52] <raven^Ron> my bad..sorry all..
[21:54] <raven^Ron> does romance, in your opinion, detract from the dominance or submission within the relationship? why or why not?
[21:54] <Soulhuntr> no :) I do however think it can and often does have a directly negative effect on formality, obedience and training.
[21:55] <bella`> i would not say that it detracts per se, but it can complicate the issue.
[21:55] <Soulhuntr> In my live, romance is an issue of "love", and live is seperate from and parralel too my BDSM. They dont cross paths.
[21:55] <Soulhuntr> (umm... yeah, what I said :))
[21:55] <raven^Ron> raven: some people find that romance makes them want to be more obedientof their dominant because they would rather get the romance than the bad feelings which come from having displeased the dominant..
[21:55] <Soulhuntr> corrected: "In my life, romance is an issue of "love", and love"
[21:55] <raven^Ron> raven: it can complicate yes..that's for a sure..
[21:56] <raven^Ron> for sure even..
[21:56] * Roamer` sees Romance as another facet of a relationship
[21:56] <{sonja}JP> i would agree that i "work harder" when the romance is there.........
[21:57] <raven^Ron> Ron: I agree Roamer, it's one part (among many) of a relationship..
[21:57] <Roamer`> exactly
[21:57] <bella`> but sonja, have you tried to work when the romance isn't? it is very different
[21:57] <raven^Ron> raven: but not everyone wants a "relationship" in that context from their bdsm partner..
[21:57] <raven^Ron> Ron: True, as we said earlier there are those who are strictly about the power exchange..
[21:58] <raven^Ron> raven: true bella...very different...
[21:58] <simi{R}> Flagg said it really well once..
[21:58] <Roamer`> indeed raven, i simply said its a facet is all ..not everyone will want it ..and those that do may want it to differing degrees
[21:58] <Roamer`> (like most aspects of a relationship)
[21:59] <raven^Ron> raven: how did he say it simi?
[21:59] <raven^Ron> raven: true Roamer..
[21:59] <simi{R}> He said that the focus of his relationship with Zoe was the structure.
[21:59] <simi{R}> That the romantic involvement never gained priority over the structure, for either of them
[21:59] <simi{R}> and that THAT was the key to the continued success for them
[22:00] <simi{R}> It's not that way in my case, but that makes good sense to me, with regard to that kind of relationship
[22:00] <raven^Ron> raven: I can understand that..I think many bdsm relationships do not focus on romance as the main ingredient of the relationship...but they can incorporate romance as a part of that relationship, not the focus of it..
[22:00] <raven^Ron> raven: makes sense to me too simi..
[22:00] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: i agree
[22:01] <{sonja}JP> Master just said that He wasnt very romantic................
[22:01] <simi{R}> That if one loses sight of the structure... that the relationship was predicated on...
[22:01] <simi{R}> then no amount of love can replace that need for structure
[22:01] <bella`> that is VERY true Simi
[22:01] <simi{R}> I found that interesting, and could understand it
[22:01] <raven^Ron> raven: I can understand it too..
[22:02] <Roamer`> {sonja}JP: I don't think I'm romantic ..ananda thinks otherwise hehehe
[22:02] <{sonja}JP> He knew He was fibbing though
[22:03] <{sonja}JP> in answer to your question bella, i havent tried to work without the romance, but i dont think i would care to test it :)
[22:04] <bella`> sonja, i think it depends on whether your desire is to serve your lover, or to serve period.
[22:05] <bella`> they are different...neither better...but they have different motivations.
[22:05] <raven^Ron> Ron: I wouldn't care to be in a bdsm relationship with someone I didn't love..it just doesn't work that way for me..if I didn't care that deeply about the person, there is no reason for me to put the structure in..
[22:05] <Roamer`> Same for me Ron, but I do realise that others put different values into their relationships
[22:06] <raven^Ron> raven: for me bella, the service in and of itself is all well and good..but I need to know that it is noticed at times, and appreciated..or it's *hollow*..this is not to say I want my dom to constantly kiss my ass or anything..just once in a while to tell/show me thye notice and/or appreciate the things I do..
[22:06] <Soulhuntr> I dont think that it is necessarily true that those who seperate love and dominance don't function best whent hey have both :)
[22:06] <raven^Ron> raven: for me, the love is nice to have, but it is not neccessary for me to submit...though, I"m happier with the love in there..
[22:06] <bella`> i agree raven, but that can be accompished without romance.
[22:06] <raven^Ron> raven: sorry Soul but I don't understand that statement..could you clarify for me please?
[22:07] <raven^Ron> raven: yes it can be bella..
[22:07] <raven^Ron> Ron: Eric, what do you think about romance in a BDSM relationship?
[22:07] <Soulhuntr> The issue is recognizing that they can exist independantly. Kimiko has had the urge to serve those she didnt love, and she has loved manys he wouldn't serve - thus it is patently clear that those things are distict. However, Kimiko would never take a collar froms omeone she didn't love. The issue is that love does not GENERATE the desire to serve in her.
[22:07] <Soulhuntr> (distict = distinct)
[22:07] <bella`> i agree Ken.
[22:08] <raven^Ron> raven: Ahh..I can understand that Ken..and agree with it..
[22:08] * {sonja}JP and Master agree with that statement Ken
[22:08] <simi{R}> That makes perfect sense, Ken
[22:08] <Eric^> I think that it depends on the sort of relationship you seek
[22:09] <raven^Ron> raven: that Eric and the makeup of the person seeking..
[22:09] <bella`> It is interesting, i just returned from a gay/lesbian leather event..and romance enters into their bdsm far less.
[22:09] <Eric^> if it is simply an extension of the "normal" male to female relationship into one that involves a power structure, then romance will be a major part of your bdsm
[22:09] <bella`> it seems to be much more about the power dynamic itself rather than 'love' or even sex.
[22:10] <raven^Ron> Ron: I wonder why that is bella..
[22:10] <bella`> i saw gay male bottoms offering services to lesbian tops....it was about the power, not the genitalia or the romance
[22:11] <Eric^> they have already moved outside of socially acceptable relationships... they no longer have to "conform"
[22:11] <bella`> because for them, it is dominance that motivates the service...not the sex.
[22:12] <bella`> it is about power....and the romance OF power
[22:12] <Eric^> they have a certain freedom to "reinvent" their relationship structures... if that makes sense. hetero relationships are heavily tied to sex for some fairly simple biological reasons
[22:12] <raven^Ron> raven nods..makes sense..
[22:12] <bella`> that is true Eric. Also, it is hard to take the cultural expectations out of a m/f relationship.
[22:13] <raven^Ron> raven: brb
[22:13] <bella`> Even with the power dynamics, it is very easy to fall into the trap of 'boyfriend' rather than 'dom'
[22:13] <Eric^> of course it is, just look at the reactions that service oriented dominants and submissives get on mailing lists
[22:14] <Eric^> and a couple of my female dominant friends look down their noses at a lot of mdom/fsub relationships cause they see them as bf/gf having kinky sex
[22:14] <bella`> exactly.
[22:14] <sharon`> That kind of elitism really grates on me.
[22:14] <bella`> Draco and i were kinda watched to see if we were just that.
[22:14] * bella` whispers to simi...we played with needles!!!
[22:15] <simi{R}> sierra! didn't even see you come in :) Hiya and night
[22:15] <Eric^> it bothers me too, and I tell em so, but I also see their point. They aren't being elitist, they are saying don't call a dog a horse
[22:15] <simi{R}> Cool bella :)
[22:15] <Eric^> night simi
[22:15] <arella{R}> night simi :)
[22:15] <Eric^> from their point of view
[22:15] <raven^Ron> raven: but is every mdom/fsub relationship really nothing more than a bf/gf having kinky sex?
[22:15] <bella`> sharon, it doesn't have to be elitism...but, it is a different way of viewing it....and one that doesn't always mesh with the idea of non romantic bdsm
[22:15] <raven^Ron> raven: even if love/romance is present..
[22:16] <{sonja}JP> i dont think so raven
[22:16] <bella`> that would depend upon one's personal definition of D/s relationships i would think.
[22:17] <raven^Ron> raven: neither did I sonja...just rather curious...I am sure some of them are just that...but that comes back to definitions, of which there are no clear cut, community accepted definitions anyway..
[22:17] <raven^Ron> yes..
[22:17] <{sonja}JP> i think it goes bac to intent to "submit"
[22:17] <{sonja}JP> back even
[22:17] <raven^Ron> raven: I'm sorry all..I'm coming down with a cold..and very tired..so I'm turning it over to Ron..night all..thanks for coming :)
[22:18] <Eric^> my keyboard is slowly dying
[22:18] <bella`> what do you mean by the intent to submit sonja?
[22:18] <Soulhuntr> Aaahhzz .... isnt that from the "Myth" books?
[22:18] <AAhhzz> *raven sends a hug back
[22:19] <{sonja}JP> the difference between a gf/bf having kinky sex and a D/s relationship is the mental submission (IMHO)
[22:19] * AAhhzz smiles and nods....Yes it is......had not seen my nick before Soul??.....or just thought of it?
[22:19] * arella{R} giggles.. remembering the story of AAhhzz
[22:19] * AAhhzz agrees with {sonja}JP.....It is the mental and emotional aspects which to me are crucial
[22:20] <Soulhuntr> Just didnt get around to mentioning it :)
[22:20] <bella`> sonja, do you think that it makes any difference if the mental submission is continual or situational?
[22:20] <AAhhzz> Thanks Soul.....It fits mewell I think
[22:20] * Eric^ finds that there is an immense struggle present in balancing romance and service. But, I want both to be present as equally as possible
[22:20] <{sonja}JP> in a way, yes.....
[22:20] <bella`> yes Eric..that is a difficult line to walk
[22:21] <arella{R}> raven says nice comment Eric, she agrees
[22:21] * bella` sometimes falls from that tightrope
[22:21] * AAhhzz nods.....Yes Eric^.......To me the relationship would not be anywhere near as satisfying if the romance were not there
[22:21] <{sonja}JP> to me, situational submission is just play - unless you are referring to constraints, such as outsiders/children/etc
[22:22] <Eric^> hmmmmm, define situational submission sonja?
[22:22] <AAhhzz> Ahhhh..........situational......but even in the most difficult of situations it can be shown...subtly.....
[22:22] <{sonja}JP> in a full-time relationship, only submitting during "set times" such as play - in the bedroome - etc
[22:22] <arella{R}> uhmmm.. where you are just submissive, in the bedroom, and only for as long as you Want to be.
[22:22] <AAhhzz> Kids climbing all over you Eric^
[22:22] <Eric^> mmmmm, okay
[22:23] <AAhhzz> Ohh....I was goingthe other way with that word {sonja}JP
[22:23] <{sonja}JP> i agree Ron - there is really no time, for me, when i am not "in submission" to Master - even when others are around....
[22:23] <Eric^> I see where you are going with that.... I would not find it possible to live with someone and only have d/s occur for certain intervals, then turn it off for others.
[22:24] <{sonja}JP> right.........to me that is simply play.........not a full-time D/s relationship, but then i prefer a M/s relationship, so i have strong views on it.....
[22:24] <Eric^> say rather that it is erotic power exchange, or top/bottom, I wouldn't call it play, because play infers something negative, and if the situation works for the couple, then no problem
[22:25] * AAhhzz shudders......No....for meI think it has to always be there.....perhaps during a discussion where we hold different opinions it is not so present....but it is there...andI have stopped conversations by declaring that "My opinionis the last word...
[22:25] <{sonja}JP> i agree Eric - that is what i meant
[22:25] <arella{R}> brb
[22:25] * AAhhzz wonders where romance went in this discussion
[22:25] <Eric^> so, what about service and submission without romance?
[22:25] * {sonja}JP wonders as well
[22:26] <arella{R}> boring?
[22:26] <Eric^> lol, we took a detour
[22:26] * AAhhzz wonders where the flippen space bar went too
[22:26] <Eric^> why arella?
[22:26] <{sonja}JP> its possible Eric, just not my cup o tea
[22:26] <bella`> it depends on your definition of romance...and whether or not romance has to include love
[22:26] <arella{R}> because for ME theres no motivation, other then my own desire to serve
[22:26] <arella{R}> well.. actually.. second
[22:26] * AAhhzz nods....Yes it is possible....*nods to arella{R}*
[22:26] <{sonja}JP> lol........i had pm's going earlier with raven and ananda..........now i look up and it looks like i have pm's going with AAhhzz and Roamer`.....
[22:27] <Eric^> so love/romance is a motivator for your submission arella?
[22:27] <Roamer`> hehe
[22:27] <arella{R}> thats not quite true.. it depends.. I love both raven, and AAhhzz, however I don't feel romantically towards either of them, yet, I enjoy doing things for both of them.
[22:27] <AAhhzz> Ohhhhh....Better not let JP see that {sonja}JP....mightthink we are tryingto "romance you.....LOL
[22:27] <arella{R}> not always Eric, but, yes, it's a part of it.
[22:27] <bella`> personally, i find it incredibly romantic to be motivated to service...
[22:27] <{sonja}JP> LOL
[22:28] <{sonja}JP> there is something to discuss..........what one person finds romantic, another might not.......
[22:28] <bella`> however, that does not have to include a love relationship.
[22:28] * AAhhzz smiles....And we love you arella{R}.....just not romantically.....we love you because your lovable
[22:28] * Eric^ enjoys service without romance.... not on a daily, hourly basis... but service and the power structure is something I enjoy for itself
[22:29] * arella{R} isn't sure she made her point
[22:29] <bella`> exactly Eric..and i find that dynamic increibly romantic
[22:29] <AAhhzz> *raven: I enjoy service in a structured relationship......does not have to be love......
[22:29] <Eric^> huh?
[22:29] <{sonja}JP> night sharon
[22:30] * Eric^ grins, but there's something kinky about being served, and serviced, by someone who loves me as well
[22:31] * arella{R} is tired.. and thinks she lost her train of thought
[22:31] <Eric^> whoops... got quiet
[22:31] <AAhhzz> raven: I peeked over Ron's shoulder for a second: I enjoy service ..and can do it for people I do not neccesarily love or care about...it's part of who I am..I can enjoy service within the structure of a power exchange and as a direct result of that exchange, with or without love. I prefer the love in an interpersonal collared relationship however,,,feels..more well rounded to me and gives the service a special "edge" to it
[22:31] * AAhhzz takes the keyboard back......
[22:32] * AAhhzz triesto type for raven.......Remember...only 20 words per minute
[22:32] <Eric^> hmmmmm, I can see that raven
[22:34] * {sonja}JP is not going to say what that line looked like at first
[22:34] <AAhhzz> Do you thinkromance has a place in a BDSM relationship shimmer{J?
[22:35] <shimmer{J> indeed I do :)
[22:37] * AAhhzz grins....Thats the beautiful thing about romance Eric^......if you try hard enough....you can get it back.....
[22:37] <Eric^> mmmmm, but is romantic a good thing?
[22:37] <{sonja}JP> a DAMN good thing
[22:37] <Eric^> why?
[22:37] <shimmer{J> indeed it is.
[22:37] <AAhhzz> For me it is Eric^...Others might hold other opinions....and that is thier privledge.....
[22:37] <{sonja}JP> because it gives you that oooey gooey gushy feeling
[22:38] <AAhhzz> might hold even
[22:38] <shimmer{J> what she said
[22:38] * Eric^ is playing Devil's Advocate
[22:38] <{sonja}JP> we know Eric.... :)
[22:38] * AAhhzz hands Eric^ a set of horns....
[22:38] <bella`> we were discussing that earlier Eric...if Draco took me out and did dinner and flowers i would be confuzzled.
[22:38] <Eric^> but, what if the romance interferes with the d/s?
[22:38] <bella`> however, if he grabbed me by the throat, threw me down and told me how much he loves to hurt me...
[22:38] <bella`> THAT would be romantic
[22:39] <Eric^> thanks Aahhzz
[22:39] * bella` is wired wrong...
[22:39] * Eric^ puts the horns on and smiles like a benevolent Satan
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> that is what i was saying earlier......different people view different things as being romantic
[22:39] <shimmer{J> that is utterly romantic to me, bella babe
[22:39] * AAhhzz nods......thinking that thats pretty close to what happened late friday night
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> no dear........wanting what you like isnt WRONG....
[22:39] <MasterJP> to some a candlelight dinner is romantic, to others it is too dim to see their food
[22:40] <Eric^> what if, for example, the dominant holds back from disciplining his submissive because of love???
[22:40] <shimmer{J> I see romance where others see pain :)
[22:40] <MasterJP> that isn't love..
[22:40] <{sonja}JP> take out the throat grabbing part - maybe shoulder grabbing instead - and i would find that romantic as well
[22:40] <MasterJP> it's like with children... it is BECAUSE you love them that you discipline them
[22:40] <AAhhzz> Romance could become a determent to a BDSM relationship if it becomes the sole focus of the relationship
[22:41] * {sonja}JP agrees with Master guy (hers, not arella's) *giggle*
[22:41] <bella`> and here i thought it was because they would be HELL to live with otherwise..lol
[22:41] <Eric^> I understand the motivation JP
[22:41] * sierra agrees with bella
[22:41] <Eric^> but, I think it possible for the romantic emotions to blur the clearheadedness needed at times
[22:41] <MasterJP> of course it is...
[22:41] <shimmer{J> of course it is, Eric.
[22:41] <MasterJP> it is always possible for emotion to cloud reason
[22:41] <MasterJP> between?
[22:42] <{sonja}JP> dont you have to deal with those emotions the same way you have to deal with being "overly excited" in a scene.......
[22:42] <shimmer{J> I trust John to be able to rise above that when it is needed.
[22:42] <{sonja}JP> exactly shimmer.........think he gave us a good example of that in his post.....
[22:42] * shimmer{J blushes and smiles :)))
[22:42] <Eric^> overly excited? meaning what sonja? physically erect, or soemthing else?
[22:43] <shimmer{J> Yeah :) I posted my version of that in my journal :)
[22:43] <{sonja}JP> LOL @physically erect....no hun.......the possible desire to want to go further, when one knows he/she should stop.....
[22:43] <Eric^> oh
[22:46] * AAhhzz smiles....Ok....so we all have what we feel is "romance"...and not surprisingly they differe a bit preson to person
[22:46] <Eric^> hmmmmm.... so, it's possible to mix romance and d/s, according to all here... but, in the traditional mdom/fsub relationship will it not be hard, to impossible, to overcome the cultural/social conditioning?
[22:46] <shimmer{J> how so?
[22:46] <Soulhuntr> I think i'd probably walk away from her if I did it, and tell her if she wasnt playign games she would have been on her knees a few minutes ago instead of making me go to allt he trouble of hitting her so she could pretend she was forced.
[22:46] <AAhhzz> Do you mena of not hitting a Lady/?
[22:47] <{sonja}JP> what cultural/ condition?
[22:47] <Eric^> our cultural/social conditioning confuses men.. they are supposed to be strong, but defer to their wife, the leader of the house, but not correct and discipline, women are put on untouchable pedestals
[22:47] <Eric^> not just hitting, in the past 30 years we have decided that men are not supposed to be in charge of women
[22:47] * bella` kicked over her pedestal...
[22:47] <{sonja}JP> no........, least i dont think so
[22:47] <shimmer{J> ummmmmm no. It won't be hard to overcome the conditioning at least in John's house. LOL
[22:48] * {sonja}JP prefers an ottoman to a pedestal :)
[22:48] <Soulhuntr> I dont know eric, a lot of feminists willt ell you women are more opressed now than ever.
[22:48] <shimmer{J> I'm a feminist :)
[22:48] <MasterJP> I also think it is where in society you are
[22:48] <AAhhzz> True Eric^......but for us obviously the conditioning didnt take....or if it did as in my case....I got better.....
[22:48] * Eric^ puts his hands on AAhhzz, be well, go and sin some more
[22:48] <Eric^> there, all better
[22:49] <AAhhzz> LOL
[22:49] <MasterJP> in my peer group, the man is the head of the household and is responsible for the "bottom line" stuff
[22:49] <Eric^> well Ken, those feminists don't see the immense amount of power placed in women's hands now
[22:53] * AAhhzz nods.....Was a good discussion all.....
[22:53] <AAhhzz> <END OF DISCUSSION FOR LOGGING PURPOSES>
[21:06] <rvn^Ron> You must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave. Legal age being 18 or 21 depending on your location, if you are thought to be younger, you will be asked your age. If you are found to be younger, you will be kick/banned.
[21:06] <rvn^Ron> No trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night Trolling is the advertising of yourself, wants/needs/desires, and/or personal ads. If you troll, you will be kick/banned.
[21:06] <rvn^Ron> Harassment will not be tolerated either. If you harass another person, and an op is made aware of it, you will be asked to stop. If you continue, you will be kick/banned. This discussion is for enjoyment and information, not harassment.
[21:06] <rvn^Ron> Please try to stay on topic and discuss one thread at a time. If the discussion gets overly fast (or overly emotional, or someone requests a break), I will call a break. This is so everyone can take a few moments to relax, and get their thoughts in order before continuing.
[21:07] <rvn^Ron> If it erodes into a semantics argument, and those who are disagreeing can not agree to disagree, I will close the discussion for the night. We are here to discuss and learn from one anther, not fight with one another.
[21:07] <rvn^Ron> Please be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. Flaming is insulting the person who states an idea. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[21:07] * rvn^Ron puts on the pink boots and boots arella for trolling..
[21:07] <rvn^Ron> All statements are publishable on the web site,. I will change nicks if it is requested via email to webmaster@leathernroses.com. If I receive no requests, logs will be published in full on the web site and the lack of a request will be taken as consent to publish your statements.
[21:07] <rvn^Ron> I hope you enjoy tonight's discussion, the topic is Romance in BDSM
[21:08] <rvn^Ron> let's start off with..What is romance?
[21:08] <nessa{JW}> its what i fantasize about when reading my favorite trashy novels
[21:09] <arella{R}> generally the .. action of showing loving feelings?
[21:09] <Rob`-`> the sharing of love
[21:09] <ananda{R}> the way in which a person expresses their affection for another?
[21:09] <{sonja}JP> i call it "being SWEET" but with someone you love....
[21:09] <rvn^Ron> raven: I think it is things done specifically to garner a feeling of love in one's partner..
[21:09] * ananda{R} nods
[21:09] * arella{R} thinks you can share love without neccasarily being romantic
[21:10] <rvn^Ron> Ron: certain imbalance of brain chemicals that causes men to act foolishly..
[21:10] <rvn^Ron> raven looks at Ron...uh huh..
[21:10] <ananda{R}> lol
[21:10] <rvn^Ron> Ron: Ok..it's more than that..
[21:10] <Rob`-`> lol yeah, thats it
[21:10] <{sonja}JP> fooolishly?
[21:10] <nessa{JW}> umm thats a balance that makes men act wonderfully <G>
[21:11] <EZRiser> makes us tolerate alot more than we normally would too ..
[21:11] <rvn^Ron> Ron: I like sonja's answer..being "sweet"..
[21:11] <ananda{R}> Roamer said you are mistaken Ron, it is alcoholt hat makes you act foolishly! lol
[21:11] <{sonja}JP> and the smart guys figure out what it does to women...........
[21:11] <rvn^Ron> raven agrees with Roamer!!!
[21:11] <ananda{R}> lol
[21:11] <ananda{R}> good point sonja
[21:11] <rvn^Ron> what does it do to women sonja?
[21:11] * arella{R} agrees with Roamer!
[21:12] <{sonja}JP> makes em gushy (often in more ways than one) and Responsive
[21:12] <ananda{R}> when Roamer is romantic with me, I feel more submissive
[21:12] <ananda{R}> more want to please him
[21:12] * ananda{R} is looking up the def in the dict.
[21:12] * sharon` points at sonja and says *what she said*
[21:12] <{sonja}JP> definitely ananda.....
[21:13] <{sonja}JP> *VBS*
[21:13] <rvn^Ron> so would you say romance has a place in BDSM?
[21:13] <rvn^Ron> Ron: It can, it doesn't have to, but it can..
[21:13] <nessa{JW}> Romance makes me fall in love all over again
[21:13] <sharon`> Absolutely, although I would not say it is necessary
[21:13] <{sonja}JP> only in good Doms............was that on the list Ron?
[21:13] <simi{R}> It depends on what the focus of the relationship is, I would think
[21:13] <rvn^Ron> Ron: The act of romance, by that I mean the buying flowers, attentiveness, care and concern, can be used to bind two people together..and not to a bedpost either..
[21:14] <ananda{R}> it is a part of our relationship for sure
[21:14] <{sonja}JP> and it also depends on the people.....not all women are concerned about romance....
[21:14] <rvn^Ron> Ron: no some bad doms use romance sonja.. pull them in, get them..the do whatever it is that makes them "bad"..
[21:14] <ananda{R}> good point sonja, not everyoen has the mushy, gushy personality type
[21:14] <{sonja}JP> true raven
[21:14] <rvn^Ron> raven: it's a part of my relationship as well ananda..but i don't see it as an aboslute neccessity..
[21:14] <sharon`> Now there is _my_ idea of romance, being tied to a bedpost, while receiving flowers, attentiveness and care. <g>
[21:14] <rvn^Ron> I like that sharon!!
[21:15] <rvn^Ron> Ron: chuckles..
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> me too sharon
[21:15] <ananda{R}> good one sharon
[21:15] <rvn^Ron> Ron whispers Oh shit in between laughing..
[21:15] <rvn^Ron> Ron: good one sharon!
[21:15] <ananda{R}> I think being tied up with rope to be quite romantic
[21:15] * simi{R} smacks sharon
[21:15] * sharon` thanks simi
[21:15] <rvn^Ron> Ron wonders when sharon receives roses does she like thepetals or the thorns best..
[21:15] <rvn^Ron> raven: thorns!
[21:15] * rvn^Ron giggles
[21:15] <ananda{R}> lol
[21:15] <sharon`> they are best when mixed. :--)
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> a big part of what was missing in my marriage was that my ex had 0 romance ability........i thrive on it with Master.....
[21:15] <rvn^Ron> well the thorns make great scratching implements! ;)
[21:15] <ananda{R}> can't really enjoy the beauty of a rose if you don't get stuck by a thorn or two, now can you?
[21:15] * simi{R} likes the petals under me and the thorns in me
[21:16] <rvn^Ron> are there times/situations where romance is not part of the relationship?
[21:16] <simi{R}> Definitely
[21:16] <sharon`> Certainly.
[21:16] <rvn^Ron> Ron: no there isn't..even during punishment the care and concern that is part of that romance is there..
[21:17] <rvn^Ron> raven: true, but the goal of making the other person all "mushy" is not there..
[21:17] <rvn^Ron> Ron: true
[21:17] <sharon`> I have several BDSM relationships in which romance plays no part
[21:17] <simi{R}> I see love and romance as separate things
[21:17] <{sonja}JP> that is what i would have thought.........but when wouldnt it be?
[21:17] <EZRiser> there should never be a time with out it .. or the love that underlies it .. its an absolute must
[21:17] <rvn^Ron> raven: I think they are seperate things simi..though one is often present within the other..
[21:17] <sharon`> I can be play partners without romance.
[21:17] <simi{R}> Agreed, raven
[21:17] <rvn^Ron> Ron: THank you EZ!
[21:17] <simi{R}> I love Ror and likewise, however.. we aren't always romantic
[21:17] <{sonja}JP> but a longtime.......loving relationship?
[21:18] <rvn^Ron> when wouldn't it be what sonja?
[21:18] <sharon`> I also had a domme for a long time who was in a monogamous relationship and romance was simply not a part of our relationship.
[21:18] * simi{R} can't wait to romance sharon
[21:18] <simi{R}> sorry folks, will try to contain myself
[21:18] * sharon` smiles
[21:19] * simi{R} smacks seld
[21:19] <rvn^Ron> not a problem simi
[21:19] <{sonja}JP> when wouldnt it be part of a relationship?
[21:19] <simi{R}> self
[21:19] <rvn^Ron> in a relationship that is not based on romantic love sonja..
[21:19] <rvn^Ron> Ron: Some bdsm relationship are just based on power exchange..
[21:19] <sharon`> Exactly, Ron.
[21:19] <ananda{R}> good point, Ron
[21:19] <simi{R}> While romance is a part of our relationship, it is not the same sort of romance that we had in the first couple of years together
[21:20] <sharon`> My relationship with my domme, for example, was negotiated at the outset.
[21:20] <sharon`> I was submissive to her. She was my protector. But her love and her romantic feelings were reserved for her husband/slave
[21:20] <{sonja}JP> i can understand that.......(when it is not a love relationship, just play or such) but if it is an "in love" situation, when wouldnt the romance be a part of it?
[21:20] <rvn^Ron> Ron nods: some relationships are totally negotiated, totally power exchange..it's not about love..
[21:21] <simi{R}> Well sonja, I can speak for us..
[21:21] <simi{R}> Often there's little to find romantic about our day-to-day... homework, kids, cat puking, dead mice at the doorstep, dinner, cleaning...
[21:21] <rvn^Ron> raven: possibly in a formal situation, public situation, punishment or a scene who's focus is not to make the sub feel all mushy..
[21:21] <arella{R}> but you can Love someone, and share that without being.. Romantic persay, giving flowers, hugs, showing great amounts of affection
[21:22] <rvn^Ron> raven: a scene that is focusing on tolerance of the sub..or the sub withstanding the pain from a sadist dominant beacuse he likes the pain..
[21:22] <{sonja}JP> ok.........but if HE cleans up the cat puke, so you dont have to, I would consider that "romantic" to a degree.....
[21:22] <simi{R}> I consider it mandatory!
[21:22] * simi{R} grins
[21:22] <rvn^Ron> Ron: would that be like me doing a set of dishse sonja?
[21:22] <rvn^Ron> raven: Hell yes!
[21:22] * sharon` chuckles at how low our standards have fallen
[21:23] <arella{R}> so your being romantic when you do the dishs Ron?
[21:23] <{sonja}JP> only if it is not something you normallly do.
[21:23] <simi{R}> cat puke is a hard limit for me
[21:23] * arella{R} thought it was just really helpful
[21:23] <rvn^Ron> Ron: sometimes arella..
[21:23] <{sonja}JP> helpful to you.........romantic to raven?
[21:23] <rvn^Ron> raven: when he does something really helpful doesn't it make you feel kind of mushy arella? it does me on most occasions..
[21:23] <ananda{R}> Roamer runs my bath for me everymorning...deffo a part of his routine and I think it is incredibly romantic
[21:23] <simi{R}> Ror's helpful, god the man is a saint at times. but I don't see it as romantic
[21:23] <arella{R}> well, yes kinda
[21:23] <rvn^Ron> Ron laughs at cat puke limit line
[21:24] <simi{R}> LoL
[21:24] <rvn^Ron> raven: I guess I see it partly that way because it is still rather new to me simi..
[21:24] * arella{R} thinks she's glad the cats here don't puke much.. ickkkersssss
[21:24] <rvn^Ron> raven: cat puke..YUCK!! Definite Ron job!
[21:24] <simi{R}> Yup
[21:24] <rvn^Ron> Ron: Nathan's! Sam's or Rachel's! they're not my cats!!!!
[21:24] <{sonja}JP> ok..........its getting confusing.......the running of bathwater is romantic (to me) cause its not a "job" that has to be done.........when i said "not a regular thing" i meant - chores, etc
[21:24] <rvn^Ron> raven giggles..
[21:25] <sharon`> The same act can be romantic or not depending upon the relationship of the parties to whom it is directed. Case in point, Ron washing dishes--romantic to raven, helpful to arella
[21:25] <ananda{R}> good point sharon
[21:25] <simi{R}> What I find romantic is when he's planned something special for me... a night out, a 1st class dinner, a surprise trip... and it doesn't have to be a surprise, necessarily
[21:25] <rvn^Ron> I can see that sonja..
[21:26] <rvn^Ron> Ron: I can see that simi..but sometimes doing just the little things can be done out of love and affection..
[21:26] <simi{R}> I know he's going to do something awesome for my birthdays, and it's the planning and thought that makes it romantic to me
[21:26] <arella{R}> yes.. but.. Ron doesn't Have to do those things.. he doesnt' Have to do laundry.. or dishs.. he gives us sunday as not having to do anything, and I can see why raven would see that as romantic
[21:26] <{sonja}JP> i find that romantic.......but i am big into the "lots of little things" - like the song Master sang for me and sent me....
[21:26] <sharon`> For me, romantic is almost anything that makes me the focus of some sort of positive, loving attention.
[21:26] <rvn^Ron> raven: makes sense simi..
[21:26] <simi{R}> But that's romantic, sonja :)
[21:26] <ananda{R}> I like that sharon
[21:26] <simi{R}> When Ror leaves me little notes in my purse for me to find at work later in the day... telling me how much he values me
[21:27] <rvn^Ron> Ron: I agree, that was special and romantic of JP sonja..
[21:27] <simi{R}> that's romantic
[21:27] <rvn^Ron> raven: yes that is romantic.. :)
[21:27] <simi{R}> It's a thoughtful gesture...
[21:27] <{sonja}JP> right......that is one of the many little things he does, the consistency of that, to me, is romantic....
[21:27] <simi{R}> and I suppose that him pitching in could be taken as romantic, but it's expected in our house
[21:28] <{sonja}JP> right simi, that is just a split of chores....
[21:28] <simi{R}> So I don't see it as special to me
[21:28] <simi{R}> maybe I should?
[21:28] <rvn^Ron> raven: Ron expects to help out around the house simi...I don't expect it of him (least not yet, but I can't say that won't change over time)..so to me, it's still an unexpected thing..
[21:28] <simi{R}> Okay, I can see that, raven
[21:28] * arella{R} giggles
[21:28] <arella{R}> the first time he started doing dishs.. we were sure he was going to kill us soon afterwards
[21:28] <rvn^Ron> raven: it is most special to me when Ron comes home, obviously having had a difficult day, and still helps out rather than just leave everything to someone else..
[21:29] <simi{R}> I remember a time when I wouldn't THINK of him working in the house. Those days are GONE!
[21:29] <sharon`> But sonja and simi, what if he does something that is usually _your_ chore just to please you? Does that become somewhat romantic?
[21:29] <rvn^Ron> raven; YES arella!!! I was terrified!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[21:29] <rvn^Ron> Ron laughs..
[21:29] <{sonja}JP> Yes, sharon
[21:29] <simi{R}> It's thoughtful, sharon.... it's kind, and it's appreciated. It's heart-warming, so I suppose it could be considered romantic.
[21:29] <rvn^Ron> raven: it is most special to me when Ron comes home, obviously having had a difficult day, and still helps out rather than just leave everything to someone else..
[21:29] <{sonja}JP> that is what i was talking about in the first place.......doesnt count if it is HIS chore
[21:29] <rvn^Ron> whoops....wrong line
[21:29] <rvn^Ron> would you say there could be such a thing as too much romance in a bdsm relationship? if so, would it negatively affect the power exchange?
[21:29] <rvn^Ron> that's what I wanted!
[21:30] <simi{R}> Hmmmm.... I don't know
[21:30] * ananda{R} ponders raven's comment
[21:30] <{sonja}JP> not for me.....
[21:30] <rvn^Ron> raven: I don't see anything basic around the house as "Ron's chore"..
[21:30] <rvn^Ron> raven: it doesn't negatively affect me either sonja..
[21:30] <simi{R}> I know there are times when 'love' gets in the way of structure
[21:31] <simi{R}> (not that we're terribly structured)
[21:31] <rvn^Ron> Ron: I would say tehre could be too muhc romance when it interferes with the abilitiy to enforce the rules or structure of the relationship..
[21:31] <simi{R}> I just had a thought that makes me feel really weird
[21:31] <{sonja}JP> doing without those little romantic gestures negatively affects me - makes me wonder "why"
[21:31] <arella{R}> whats that simi
[21:31] <sharon`> I have seen people criticize doms for being too overtly romantic with their submissives. To me that is just nonsense. I think each relationship is unique and we have no business judging how much romance is appropriate
[21:31] <ananda{R}> good point, sharon
[21:31] <rvn^Ron> Ron: here! here! sharon! I would take great offense to someone telling me taht I am too loving..
[21:32] *** simi{R} (GentlGodde@AC9B22E1.ipt.aol.com) Quit (Read error to simi{R}[AC9B22E1.ipt.aol.com]: Connection reset by peer)
[21:32] <rvn^Ron> raven: I agree sharon..but for purpose of discussion, I'm not requesting judgements, just opinions and discussion of stated opinions..
[21:32] <rvn^Ron> raven: I think for me, there could come a point where the romance was "too much"...
[21:32] <rvn^Ron> raven: But I haven't reached it yet..<giggle>
[21:34] <arella{R}> wb simi, whats your scary thought?
[21:34] <sharon`> I don't disagree raven. I personally don't need all that much romance. In fact if a would be dom approaches me with too romantic an attitude, I almost want to gag. I really don't want to ever have the feeling that I have the upper hand. And feeling like the dom was nuts about me, would make me suspect I did.
[21:34] <simi{R}> That my collar isn't tied to any sort of service, or standard...
[21:34] <simi{R}> It's a collar based on love, not performance
[21:34] <rvn^Ron> raven: how so sharon?
[21:34] <arella{R}> why is that a wierd/scary thing simi?
[21:35] <rvn^Ron> raven: that is a scary thought simi..
[21:35] <simi{R}> Well, it doesn't have the symbolism that a collar does for ... lemme start over
[21:35] <rvn^Ron> raven: because in a way arella, it would be saying the collar and what it stands for doesn't really matter..
[21:35] <simi{R}> Exactly
[21:35] * arella{R} doesn't see that
[21:35] <arella{R}> just because it's for love, it doesn't mean other things aren't expected, does it?
[21:36] * simi{R} thinks
[21:36] <rvn^Ron> raven: the collar..is a symbol of a relationship, but also of a submissive. in that manner it symbolizes what the submissive does: service and such...if the romance got out of hand that structure, that "service" would no longer be the basis of the relationship..thus that symbol of the collar is gone..
[21:37] <simi{R}> True
[21:37] <rvn^Ron> raven: I think that goes back to love getting in the way of D/s sometimes..
[21:38] <simi{R}> You know, I feel really icky thinking about this now. No offense to anyone.
[21:39] * rvn^Ron hands simi{R} anti icky powder
[21:39] <simi{R}> LoL
[21:39] <sharon`> Here's a radical thought--does a collar have to imply service? I have never thought it was necessarily tied to service. Ownership yes, but service no. Kind of like you can own a dog and it can serve you (border collie, german shepherd watch dog) or you can simply have it for the pleasure it affords you. ( the french poodle or cocker spaniel.)
[21:39] * simi{R} is most likely a french poodle then
[21:39] * sharon` starts slinking towards the door.
[21:40] <rvn^Ron> Ron: I guess forsome it does not have to.....
[21:40] * sharon` nods at simi
[21:40] * {sonja}JP doesnt think that is a radical thought at all
[21:40] * arella{R} grabs sharon
[21:40] <simi{R}> I suppose you are right, Sharon....
[21:40] <EZRiser> ahh .. but the cocker spaniel holds down the yard, sharon .. keeps it from floatin away
[21:40] <sharon`> yep, I always thought you were a poodle
[21:40] <ananda{R}> my collar was/is for ownership and service
[21:40] <arella{R}> that makes sense sharon.. don't leave
[21:40] * rvn^Ron grabs sharon` and pulls her back in.....Your not getting away that easy
[21:40] <simi{R}> I keep having awful thoughts
[21:40] <ananda{R}> but you have a good point indeed, sharon
[21:40] <rvn^Ron> raven: good point sharon..the collar seems to have different meanings for different people..
[21:40] <sharon`> Okay, okay. I just didn't want to turn eveyone's world upside down.
[21:40] <simi{R}> I'm not going to come here anymore :)
[21:41] * simi{R} is kidding
[21:41] <{sonja}JP> spread them around simi so they wont feel so awful
[21:41] <rvn^Ron> what?!?!?
[21:41] <rvn^Ron> oh..whew
[21:41] <simi{R}> Ror's reading also.... he agrees with me.
[21:41] <ananda{R}> you are challenging thought processes, sharon` and that is a good thing
[21:41] <simi{R}> But it doesn't make me feel good
[21:41] <rvn^Ron> very good thing ananda :)
[21:42] * ananda{R} doesn't understand why you feel badly simi
[21:42] <rvn^Ron> raven: why do you feel bad simi?
[21:42] <arella{R}> simi.. I don't think.. that it's a bad thing for a collar to be based on love, as long as the other Parts of the relationship, service, power exchange aren't overshadowed
[21:42] <simi{R}> I can see that, arella....
[21:42] <rvn^Ron> raven: it's a balancing thing arella...in that case it's a matter of keeping the balance..though certain situations may cause the balance to shift one way or the other..
[21:42] <{sonja}JP> what exactly is "service" then?
[21:43] <arella{R}> you can honestly love someone to death, and still tell them Do this Now, because I said so, I don't care if you like it, i do.
[21:43] <rvn^Ron> raven: for example, the sub gets very ill..needs to be in bed..the stress on the sub's service may be lifted for a while and the dom may become more attentive/caring of the sub..thus shifting the balance to the caring side more than the service side..
[21:43] <sharon`> Not having the service gene, I guess I see this very differently.
[21:43] <simi{R}> Please share sharon
[21:43] <simi{R}> I really don't have the service gene either.
[21:44] <rvn^Ron> raven: honestly sonja, service is defined differently by everyone..to me, it is doing things (either specifically ordered or not) with the express intention of pleasing the dominant (non sexual things, though sexual activities can be included) ..
[21:44] <sharon`> I see submissiveness as having many different components. Service is only one of them. Not necessary in order to be submissive
[21:44] <sharon`> I suspect this is blasphemy.
[21:44] <rvn^Ron> raven: no it isn't neccessary sharon...
[21:44] <rvn^Ron> LOLOL nope sharon..not to me anyway..
[21:44] <{sonja}JP> ABSOLUTELY NOT sharon
[21:44] <arella{R}> are we gonna burn her at the stake?
[21:44] <simi{R}> No, sharon... you're my ray of hope here :)
[21:44] <rvn^Ron> raven: one can be submissive without enjoying service
[21:45] <simi{R}> I guess I don't know what to say at this point
[21:45] * simi{R} sits back and listens
[21:45] <rvn^Ron> Ron: how could one be submissive without enjoying service?
[21:45] <sharon`> I admire people who are service oriented but I don't think they are *better* submissives because of it.
[21:45] <arella{R}> every person is different, just as every relationship is different, i don't think there are.. requirements
[21:45] <rvn^Ron> raven can't explain it very well ..so waits for sharon or simi to answer that one..
[21:45] * {sonja}JP wonders what exactly is meant by service though........ are we talking chores? or serving dinner? or sex? or what?
[21:45] <rvn^Ron> Ron: raven without words?? OMG It's happened again!! Quick!! what's the temperature in hell??
[21:46] <simi{R}> ROFL!
[21:46] * arella{R} laughs
[21:46] <rvn^Ron> raven: to me sonja..all of that is service..
[21:46] <rvn^Ron> raven giggles..gee thanks Ron..
[21:46] <sharon`> Well, I may be the wrong person to tackle this, but I see submissiveness as being willing to defer to another. Not necessarily to serve them.
[21:46] <simi{R}> I don't think much about service... (knows Ror is shocked by this)
[21:46] <simi{R}> He said, "I'll alert the media"
[21:47] * simi{R} thinks hard about just how much she defers
[21:47] <raven^Ron> raven: I agree sharon..being willing to defer to anohter is submission..
[21:47] * {sonja}JP would be just as happy with a full-time maid (as would Master)........He would rather my efforts be expended soley on His desires
[21:47] * ananda{R} is not service oriented at work or in general, but am with Roamer, not that I jump everytime he needs a cuppa or something, but I like taking care if that makes sense,,,but I don't do it with everyone
[21:48] <ananda{R}> I liek that idea sonja
[21:48] * arella{R} seems to need to take care of anyone she cares about.
[21:48] <{sonja}JP> me doing the dishes would nto be a thrill for him..........less i was doing it nakey :)
[21:48] <raven^Ron> raven: I am quite service orientated..do things to take care of anyone I care about if at all possible..
[21:48] <raven^Ron> Ron: I agree with ananda..
[21:48] <raven^Ron> LOL sonja
[21:48] <raven^Ron> Ron: WooHoo sonja!!!!!!!
[21:48] <sharon`> And that is my point, arella--some submissives feel that need to *serve* and be useful. Others don't.
[21:49] <raven^Ron> raven knew Ronw as going to like that nakey dish washing comment.. LOLOL
[21:49] <arella{R}> it's not so much.. the need to feel useful sharon.. as..
[21:49] * arella{R} tilts her head
[21:49] <{sonja}JP> i do the "jump" thing with drinks/food/getting stuff.........but scrubbing the floors????
[21:49] <raven^Ron> this is true sharon..and it doesn't make either one a better..just different..
[21:49] * {sonja}JP rhyms
[21:49] <{sonja}JP> rhymes even
[21:49] <arella{R}> maybe it is being useful, I can't think of another way to say it
[21:49] <simi{R}> Is it about being depended on?
[21:50] <raven^Ron> raven: to me sonja, scrubbing the floors is not something that turns him or me on..but I look at it this way, it keeps his house clean, thus more pleasant for him...he may not even notice it, but i know it's there..
[21:50] <{sonja}JP> but if you had a maid.........would that detract from your service to him?
[21:50] *** ananda{R} is now known as Roamer`
[21:50] <raven^Ron> raven: not neccessarily simi...because quite simply if the service were completely unwatned, I wouldn't do it..
[21:50] <{sonja}JP> the house is clean - and you are a lot less tired and your back feels better - (much easier to jump your bones now *giggle*)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
[21:51] <raven^Ron> raven: to a certain extent yes, but since I can't do alot of heavy housework anyway, the housework is not my major service to Ron...it's littler things..
[21:51] <raven^Ron> Ron: I agree with sonja..I'd rather have raven feeling better and jumpable..
[21:52] <raven^Ron> raven shakes her head..missing my point and I can't think of any other way to explain it..
[21:52] <raven^Ron> and since service is not the topic..lets get back to romance..
[21:52] <{sonja}JP> but then again........if no one else is available to do the chores.......i wouldnt want HIM to do it
[21:52] <Roamer`> hehehe
[21:52] * Roamer` wondered ......
[21:52] <{sonja}JP> ooops....sorry
[21:52] <raven^Ron> my bad..sorry all..
[21:54] <raven^Ron> does romance, in your opinion, detract from the dominance or submission within the relationship? why or why not?
[21:54] <Soulhuntr> no :) I do however think it can and often does have a directly negative effect on formality, obedience and training.
[21:55] <bella`> i would not say that it detracts per se, but it can complicate the issue.
[21:55] <Soulhuntr> In my live, romance is an issue of "love", and live is seperate from and parralel too my BDSM. They dont cross paths.
[21:55] <Soulhuntr> (umm... yeah, what I said :))
[21:55] <raven^Ron> raven: some people find that romance makes them want to be more obedientof their dominant because they would rather get the romance than the bad feelings which come from having displeased the dominant..
[21:55] <Soulhuntr> corrected: "In my life, romance is an issue of "love", and love"
[21:55] <raven^Ron> raven: it can complicate yes..that's for a sure..
[21:56] <raven^Ron> for sure even..
[21:56] * Roamer` sees Romance as another facet of a relationship
[21:56] <{sonja}JP> i would agree that i "work harder" when the romance is there.........
[21:57] <raven^Ron> Ron: I agree Roamer, it's one part (among many) of a relationship..
[21:57] <Roamer`> exactly
[21:57] <bella`> but sonja, have you tried to work when the romance isn't? it is very different
[21:57] <raven^Ron> raven: but not everyone wants a "relationship" in that context from their bdsm partner..
[21:57] <raven^Ron> Ron: True, as we said earlier there are those who are strictly about the power exchange..
[21:58] <raven^Ron> raven: true bella...very different...
[21:58] <simi{R}> Flagg said it really well once..
[21:58] <Roamer`> indeed raven, i simply said its a facet is all ..not everyone will want it ..and those that do may want it to differing degrees
[21:58] <Roamer`> (like most aspects of a relationship)
[21:59] <raven^Ron> raven: how did he say it simi?
[21:59] <raven^Ron> raven: true Roamer..
[21:59] <simi{R}> He said that the focus of his relationship with Zoe was the structure.
[21:59] <simi{R}> That the romantic involvement never gained priority over the structure, for either of them
[21:59] <simi{R}> and that THAT was the key to the continued success for them
[22:00] <simi{R}> It's not that way in my case, but that makes good sense to me, with regard to that kind of relationship
[22:00] <raven^Ron> raven: I can understand that..I think many bdsm relationships do not focus on romance as the main ingredient of the relationship...but they can incorporate romance as a part of that relationship, not the focus of it..
[22:00] <raven^Ron> raven: makes sense to me too simi..
[22:00] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: i agree
[22:01] <{sonja}JP> Master just said that He wasnt very romantic................
[22:01] <simi{R}> That if one loses sight of the structure... that the relationship was predicated on...
[22:01] <simi{R}> then no amount of love can replace that need for structure
[22:01] <bella`> that is VERY true Simi
[22:01] <simi{R}> I found that interesting, and could understand it
[22:01] <raven^Ron> raven: I can understand it too..
[22:02] <Roamer`> {sonja}JP: I don't think I'm romantic ..ananda thinks otherwise hehehe
[22:02] <{sonja}JP> He knew He was fibbing though
[22:03] <{sonja}JP> in answer to your question bella, i havent tried to work without the romance, but i dont think i would care to test it :)
[22:04] <bella`> sonja, i think it depends on whether your desire is to serve your lover, or to serve period.
[22:05] <bella`> they are different...neither better...but they have different motivations.
[22:05] <raven^Ron> Ron: I wouldn't care to be in a bdsm relationship with someone I didn't love..it just doesn't work that way for me..if I didn't care that deeply about the person, there is no reason for me to put the structure in..
[22:05] <Roamer`> Same for me Ron, but I do realise that others put different values into their relationships
[22:06] <raven^Ron> raven: for me bella, the service in and of itself is all well and good..but I need to know that it is noticed at times, and appreciated..or it's *hollow*..this is not to say I want my dom to constantly kiss my ass or anything..just once in a while to tell/show me thye notice and/or appreciate the things I do..
[22:06] <Soulhuntr> I dont think that it is necessarily true that those who seperate love and dominance don't function best whent hey have both :)
[22:06] <raven^Ron> raven: for me, the love is nice to have, but it is not neccessary for me to submit...though, I"m happier with the love in there..
[22:06] <bella`> i agree raven, but that can be accompished without romance.
[22:06] <raven^Ron> raven: sorry Soul but I don't understand that statement..could you clarify for me please?
[22:07] <raven^Ron> raven: yes it can be bella..
[22:07] <raven^Ron> Ron: Eric, what do you think about romance in a BDSM relationship?
[22:07] <Soulhuntr> The issue is recognizing that they can exist independantly. Kimiko has had the urge to serve those she didnt love, and she has loved manys he wouldn't serve - thus it is patently clear that those things are distict. However, Kimiko would never take a collar froms omeone she didn't love. The issue is that love does not GENERATE the desire to serve in her.
[22:07] <Soulhuntr> (distict = distinct)
[22:07] <bella`> i agree Ken.
[22:08] <raven^Ron> raven: Ahh..I can understand that Ken..and agree with it..
[22:08] * {sonja}JP and Master agree with that statement Ken
[22:08] <simi{R}> That makes perfect sense, Ken
[22:08] <Eric^> I think that it depends on the sort of relationship you seek
[22:09] <raven^Ron> raven: that Eric and the makeup of the person seeking..
[22:09] <bella`> It is interesting, i just returned from a gay/lesbian leather event..and romance enters into their bdsm far less.
[22:09] <Eric^> if it is simply an extension of the "normal" male to female relationship into one that involves a power structure, then romance will be a major part of your bdsm
[22:09] <bella`> it seems to be much more about the power dynamic itself rather than 'love' or even sex.
[22:10] <raven^Ron> Ron: I wonder why that is bella..
[22:10] <bella`> i saw gay male bottoms offering services to lesbian tops....it was about the power, not the genitalia or the romance
[22:11] <Eric^> they have already moved outside of socially acceptable relationships... they no longer have to "conform"
[22:11] <bella`> because for them, it is dominance that motivates the service...not the sex.
[22:12] <bella`> it is about power....and the romance OF power
[22:12] <Eric^> they have a certain freedom to "reinvent" their relationship structures... if that makes sense. hetero relationships are heavily tied to sex for some fairly simple biological reasons
[22:12] <raven^Ron> raven nods..makes sense..
[22:12] <bella`> that is true Eric. Also, it is hard to take the cultural expectations out of a m/f relationship.
[22:13] <raven^Ron> raven: brb
[22:13] <bella`> Even with the power dynamics, it is very easy to fall into the trap of 'boyfriend' rather than 'dom'
[22:13] <Eric^> of course it is, just look at the reactions that service oriented dominants and submissives get on mailing lists
[22:14] <Eric^> and a couple of my female dominant friends look down their noses at a lot of mdom/fsub relationships cause they see them as bf/gf having kinky sex
[22:14] <bella`> exactly.
[22:14] <sharon`> That kind of elitism really grates on me.
[22:14] <bella`> Draco and i were kinda watched to see if we were just that.
[22:14] * bella` whispers to simi...we played with needles!!!
[22:15] <simi{R}> sierra! didn't even see you come in :) Hiya and night
[22:15] <Eric^> it bothers me too, and I tell em so, but I also see their point. They aren't being elitist, they are saying don't call a dog a horse
[22:15] <simi{R}> Cool bella :)
[22:15] <Eric^> night simi
[22:15] <arella{R}> night simi :)
[22:15] <Eric^> from their point of view
[22:15] <raven^Ron> raven: but is every mdom/fsub relationship really nothing more than a bf/gf having kinky sex?
[22:15] <bella`> sharon, it doesn't have to be elitism...but, it is a different way of viewing it....and one that doesn't always mesh with the idea of non romantic bdsm
[22:15] <raven^Ron> raven: even if love/romance is present..
[22:16] <{sonja}JP> i dont think so raven
[22:16] <bella`> that would depend upon one's personal definition of D/s relationships i would think.
[22:17] <raven^Ron> raven: neither did I sonja...just rather curious...I am sure some of them are just that...but that comes back to definitions, of which there are no clear cut, community accepted definitions anyway..
[22:17] <raven^Ron> yes..
[22:17] <{sonja}JP> i think it goes bac to intent to "submit"
[22:17] <{sonja}JP> back even
[22:17] <raven^Ron> raven: I'm sorry all..I'm coming down with a cold..and very tired..so I'm turning it over to Ron..night all..thanks for coming :)
[22:18] <Eric^> my keyboard is slowly dying
[22:18] <bella`> what do you mean by the intent to submit sonja?
[22:18] <Soulhuntr> Aaahhzz .... isnt that from the "Myth" books?
[22:18] <AAhhzz> *raven sends a hug back
[22:19] <{sonja}JP> the difference between a gf/bf having kinky sex and a D/s relationship is the mental submission (IMHO)
[22:19] * AAhhzz smiles and nods....Yes it is......had not seen my nick before Soul??.....or just thought of it?
[22:19] * arella{R} giggles.. remembering the story of AAhhzz
[22:19] * AAhhzz agrees with {sonja}JP.....It is the mental and emotional aspects which to me are crucial
[22:20] <Soulhuntr> Just didnt get around to mentioning it :)
[22:20] <bella`> sonja, do you think that it makes any difference if the mental submission is continual or situational?
[22:20] <AAhhzz> Thanks Soul.....It fits mewell I think
[22:20] * Eric^ finds that there is an immense struggle present in balancing romance and service. But, I want both to be present as equally as possible
[22:20] <{sonja}JP> in a way, yes.....
[22:20] <bella`> yes Eric..that is a difficult line to walk
[22:21] <arella{R}> raven says nice comment Eric, she agrees
[22:21] * bella` sometimes falls from that tightrope
[22:21] * AAhhzz nods.....Yes Eric^.......To me the relationship would not be anywhere near as satisfying if the romance were not there
[22:21] <{sonja}JP> to me, situational submission is just play - unless you are referring to constraints, such as outsiders/children/etc
[22:22] <Eric^> hmmmmm, define situational submission sonja?
[22:22] <AAhhzz> Ahhhh..........situational......but even in the most difficult of situations it can be shown...subtly.....
[22:22] <{sonja}JP> in a full-time relationship, only submitting during "set times" such as play - in the bedroome - etc
[22:22] <arella{R}> uhmmm.. where you are just submissive, in the bedroom, and only for as long as you Want to be.
[22:22] <AAhhzz> Kids climbing all over you Eric^
[22:22] <Eric^> mmmmm, okay
[22:23] <AAhhzz> Ohh....I was goingthe other way with that word {sonja}JP
[22:23] <{sonja}JP> i agree Ron - there is really no time, for me, when i am not "in submission" to Master - even when others are around....
[22:23] <Eric^> I see where you are going with that.... I would not find it possible to live with someone and only have d/s occur for certain intervals, then turn it off for others.
[22:24] <{sonja}JP> right.........to me that is simply play.........not a full-time D/s relationship, but then i prefer a M/s relationship, so i have strong views on it.....
[22:24] <Eric^> say rather that it is erotic power exchange, or top/bottom, I wouldn't call it play, because play infers something negative, and if the situation works for the couple, then no problem
[22:25] * AAhhzz shudders......No....for meI think it has to always be there.....perhaps during a discussion where we hold different opinions it is not so present....but it is there...andI have stopped conversations by declaring that "My opinionis the last word...
[22:25] <{sonja}JP> i agree Eric - that is what i meant
[22:25] <arella{R}> brb
[22:25] * AAhhzz wonders where romance went in this discussion
[22:25] <Eric^> so, what about service and submission without romance?
[22:25] * {sonja}JP wonders as well
[22:26] <arella{R}> boring?
[22:26] <Eric^> lol, we took a detour
[22:26] * AAhhzz wonders where the flippen space bar went too
[22:26] <Eric^> why arella?
[22:26] <{sonja}JP> its possible Eric, just not my cup o tea
[22:26] <bella`> it depends on your definition of romance...and whether or not romance has to include love
[22:26] <arella{R}> because for ME theres no motivation, other then my own desire to serve
[22:26] <arella{R}> well.. actually.. second
[22:26] * AAhhzz nods....Yes it is possible....*nods to arella{R}*
[22:26] <{sonja}JP> lol........i had pm's going earlier with raven and ananda..........now i look up and it looks like i have pm's going with AAhhzz and Roamer`.....
[22:27] <Eric^> so love/romance is a motivator for your submission arella?
[22:27] <Roamer`> hehe
[22:27] <arella{R}> thats not quite true.. it depends.. I love both raven, and AAhhzz, however I don't feel romantically towards either of them, yet, I enjoy doing things for both of them.
[22:27] <AAhhzz> Ohhhhh....Better not let JP see that {sonja}JP....mightthink we are tryingto "romance you.....LOL
[22:27] <arella{R}> not always Eric, but, yes, it's a part of it.
[22:27] <bella`> personally, i find it incredibly romantic to be motivated to service...
[22:27] <{sonja}JP> LOL
[22:28] <{sonja}JP> there is something to discuss..........what one person finds romantic, another might not.......
[22:28] <bella`> however, that does not have to include a love relationship.
[22:28] * AAhhzz smiles....And we love you arella{R}.....just not romantically.....we love you because your lovable
[22:28] * Eric^ enjoys service without romance.... not on a daily, hourly basis... but service and the power structure is something I enjoy for itself
[22:29] * arella{R} isn't sure she made her point
[22:29] <bella`> exactly Eric..and i find that dynamic increibly romantic
[22:29] <AAhhzz> *raven: I enjoy service in a structured relationship......does not have to be love......
[22:29] <Eric^> huh?
[22:29] <{sonja}JP> night sharon
[22:30] * Eric^ grins, but there's something kinky about being served, and serviced, by someone who loves me as well
[22:31] * arella{R} is tired.. and thinks she lost her train of thought
[22:31] <Eric^> whoops... got quiet
[22:31] <AAhhzz> raven: I peeked over Ron's shoulder for a second: I enjoy service ..and can do it for people I do not neccesarily love or care about...it's part of who I am..I can enjoy service within the structure of a power exchange and as a direct result of that exchange, with or without love. I prefer the love in an interpersonal collared relationship however,,,feels..more well rounded to me and gives the service a special "edge" to it
[22:31] * AAhhzz takes the keyboard back......
[22:32] * AAhhzz triesto type for raven.......Remember...only 20 words per minute
[22:32] <Eric^> hmmmmm, I can see that raven
[22:34] * {sonja}JP is not going to say what that line looked like at first
[22:34] <AAhhzz> Do you thinkromance has a place in a BDSM relationship shimmer{J?
[22:35] <shimmer{J> indeed I do :)
[22:37] * AAhhzz grins....Thats the beautiful thing about romance Eric^......if you try hard enough....you can get it back.....
[22:37] <Eric^> mmmmm, but is romantic a good thing?
[22:37] <{sonja}JP> a DAMN good thing
[22:37] <Eric^> why?
[22:37] <shimmer{J> indeed it is.
[22:37] <AAhhzz> For me it is Eric^...Others might hold other opinions....and that is thier privledge.....
[22:37] <{sonja}JP> because it gives you that oooey gooey gushy feeling
[22:38] <AAhhzz> might hold even
[22:38] <shimmer{J> what she said
[22:38] * Eric^ is playing Devil's Advocate
[22:38] <{sonja}JP> we know Eric.... :)
[22:38] * AAhhzz hands Eric^ a set of horns....
[22:38] <bella`> we were discussing that earlier Eric...if Draco took me out and did dinner and flowers i would be confuzzled.
[22:38] <Eric^> but, what if the romance interferes with the d/s?
[22:38] <bella`> however, if he grabbed me by the throat, threw me down and told me how much he loves to hurt me...
[22:38] <bella`> THAT would be romantic
[22:39] <Eric^> thanks Aahhzz
[22:39] * bella` is wired wrong...
[22:39] * Eric^ puts the horns on and smiles like a benevolent Satan
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> that is what i was saying earlier......different people view different things as being romantic
[22:39] <shimmer{J> that is utterly romantic to me, bella babe
[22:39] * AAhhzz nods......thinking that thats pretty close to what happened late friday night
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> no dear........wanting what you like isnt WRONG....
[22:39] <MasterJP> to some a candlelight dinner is romantic, to others it is too dim to see their food
[22:40] <Eric^> what if, for example, the dominant holds back from disciplining his submissive because of love???
[22:40] <shimmer{J> I see romance where others see pain :)
[22:40] <MasterJP> that isn't love..
[22:40] <{sonja}JP> take out the throat grabbing part - maybe shoulder grabbing instead - and i would find that romantic as well
[22:40] <MasterJP> it's like with children... it is BECAUSE you love them that you discipline them
[22:40] <AAhhzz> Romance could become a determent to a BDSM relationship if it becomes the sole focus of the relationship
[22:41] * {sonja}JP agrees with Master guy (hers, not arella's) *giggle*
[22:41] <bella`> and here i thought it was because they would be HELL to live with otherwise..lol
[22:41] <Eric^> I understand the motivation JP
[22:41] * sierra agrees with bella
[22:41] <Eric^> but, I think it possible for the romantic emotions to blur the clearheadedness needed at times
[22:41] <MasterJP> of course it is...
[22:41] <shimmer{J> of course it is, Eric.
[22:41] <MasterJP> it is always possible for emotion to cloud reason
[22:41] <MasterJP> between?
[22:42] <{sonja}JP> dont you have to deal with those emotions the same way you have to deal with being "overly excited" in a scene.......
[22:42] <shimmer{J> I trust John to be able to rise above that when it is needed.
[22:42] <{sonja}JP> exactly shimmer.........think he gave us a good example of that in his post.....
[22:42] * shimmer{J blushes and smiles :)))
[22:42] <Eric^> overly excited? meaning what sonja? physically erect, or soemthing else?
[22:43] <shimmer{J> Yeah :) I posted my version of that in my journal :)
[22:43] <{sonja}JP> LOL @physically erect....no hun.......the possible desire to want to go further, when one knows he/she should stop.....
[22:43] <Eric^> oh
[22:46] * AAhhzz smiles....Ok....so we all have what we feel is "romance"...and not surprisingly they differe a bit preson to person
[22:46] <Eric^> hmmmmm.... so, it's possible to mix romance and d/s, according to all here... but, in the traditional mdom/fsub relationship will it not be hard, to impossible, to overcome the cultural/social conditioning?
[22:46] <shimmer{J> how so?
[22:46] <Soulhuntr> I think i'd probably walk away from her if I did it, and tell her if she wasnt playign games she would have been on her knees a few minutes ago instead of making me go to allt he trouble of hitting her so she could pretend she was forced.
[22:46] <AAhhzz> Do you mena of not hitting a Lady/?
[22:47] <{sonja}JP> what cultural/ condition?
[22:47] <Eric^> our cultural/social conditioning confuses men.. they are supposed to be strong, but defer to their wife, the leader of the house, but not correct and discipline, women are put on untouchable pedestals
[22:47] <Eric^> not just hitting, in the past 30 years we have decided that men are not supposed to be in charge of women
[22:47] * bella` kicked over her pedestal...
[22:47] <{sonja}JP> no........, least i dont think so
[22:47] <shimmer{J> ummmmmm no. It won't be hard to overcome the conditioning at least in John's house. LOL
[22:48] * {sonja}JP prefers an ottoman to a pedestal :)
[22:48] <Soulhuntr> I dont know eric, a lot of feminists willt ell you women are more opressed now than ever.
[22:48] <shimmer{J> I'm a feminist :)
[22:48] <MasterJP> I also think it is where in society you are
[22:48] <AAhhzz> True Eric^......but for us obviously the conditioning didnt take....or if it did as in my case....I got better.....
[22:48] * Eric^ puts his hands on AAhhzz, be well, go and sin some more
[22:48] <Eric^> there, all better
[22:49] <AAhhzz> LOL
[22:49] <MasterJP> in my peer group, the man is the head of the household and is responsible for the "bottom line" stuff
[22:49] <Eric^> well Ken, those feminists don't see the immense amount of power placed in women's hands now
[22:53] * AAhhzz nods.....Was a good discussion all.....
[22:53] <AAhhzz> <END OF DISCUSSION FOR LOGGING PURPOSES>
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