Formal Training (Guest Speaker: Soulhuntr Of The Estate )

First, I wish to thank Soulhuntr, Kimiko, Tatsumi and Flagg for all their help with this discussion, it is appreciated :)

The log:

[21:06] * ravn^Ron says Hello and welcome to #Leather_and_Roses' weekly discussions on BDSM topics. I hope you enjoy it. The following rules apply for all present.
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[21:09] <ravn^Ron> I hope you enjoy tonight's discussion. The topic is "Formal Training in BDSM" with a guest speaker, Soulhuntr, of The Estate, a formal training school/facility in NY/NJ. It will be run as a question/answer discussion as usual. to start, what is formal training?
[21:09] <Soulhuntr> ::chuckles:: Ok.... so your gonna start with an easy one :)
[21:09] <ravn^Ron> yup..an easy one to get the ball rolling Soul :)
[21:10] <Soulhuntr> For our purposes, formal training means that there is a fairly clear set of expectations and rules that everyone involved understands - also, that that trainign is made with an eye for its usefulness and appreciation by those who might not know the rules.
[21:10] <Soulhuntr> So...
[21:10] <Soulhuntr> while someone may have lots of rule sint heir relationship...
[21:11] <Soulhuntr> it woudl not really be "formal" if it didn't have that element of display about it. Like "formal" dress as opposed to casual.
[21:11] * Soulhuntr "over"
[21:11] <ravn^Ron> Could another way of defining formal training be that the sub is trained by someone other than thier personal dominant, in a school type setting such as the estate?
[21:12] <Soulhuntr> Actually, not really. While that would almost always indicate that the training was formal, it is extremely rare - and many are trained formally by their own owner.
[21:12] * Soulhuntr "over" :)
[21:13] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Is there a set time frame for training..like oh 6 weeks or 2 years (looking at raven)?
[21:13] <ravn^Ron> raven blushes..gee thanks..
[21:13] * mizu giggles
[21:14] <min`> what are the advantages of "formal" training?
[21:14] <arella{C}> What are the qualifications for formal training? meaning, what gets your application accepted?
[21:14] <ravn^Ron> raven: i know..and we're all headed off topic too..sorry all
[21:14] <Soulhuntr> ::chuckles:: Not really. "formal" training of course is a concept - The Estate simply represents one expression of it or one style. However, by our thoughts currently we would expect it to take about a year, with 2 long sessions a week for non residents and a few weeks of 24/7 work.
[21:15] <Soulhuntr> qualifications? you must be, or be owned by, a venture capitalist.
[21:15] <Soulhuntr> ::chuckles:: no... seriously :)
[21:16] <Soulhuntr> In the estate your qualifications must match the skills needed by the type of tool you would be shaped into. if youw ant to run your masters life... but have no head for details, then you dont qualify. If you wish to be a pleasure slave but arent capable of bisexual actiosn then you dont qualify.
[21:16] * Soulhuntr asks pardon for spelling .. he is a slow enough typist to begin with
[21:16] * Soulhuntr "over"
[21:16] <ravn^Ron> that makes sense..so the training takes into account the specific submissives talents/likes/dislikes and such?
[21:17] <{sonja}JP> so anyone can just sign up.....?
[21:17] * _Flagg chuckles.
[21:17] <Roamer`> Soulhuntr: no problem ,wait til you see some of my typos ......
[21:17] <ravn^Ron> no problem Soul :)
[21:17] <mizu> that would be the best way to start
[21:17] <Soulhuntr> yes, the trainign has to take that into account. In our case, the estate is effectively "certifying" you as being that type of tool... there is no way for us to do that unless we can be sure of your skills.
[21:18] <Soulhuntr> yes sonja, anyoen can apply - though owned slaves cannot apply themselves - their owner does it.
[21:18] <ravn^Ron> [21:14] <min`> what are the advantages of "formal" training?
[21:19] <Lord_Vlad> what would be the advantage of sending an owned slave to the estate?
[21:19] <{sonja}JP> so, can an unowned (wanting to be slave) apply? and would there be a point to it?
[21:19] <Soulhuntr> the advantages depend soley on the style of relationship yopu have. If your current or future owner needs you to be a excellent hostess or what have you then formal trainign may be the best way to get there. It also has status value, and fetish value... it often happens to improve self discipline as well.
[21:20] <curiosity> do we just throw out questions or is there some type of order here?
[21:20] * Soulhuntr is running a full ?? behind :)
[21:20] <ravn^Ron> yes Soul..don't worry..I'm catching them..when it lulls will repaste missed questions..
[21:20] <Soulhuntr> LV - the advantages only manifest under 2 circumstances - 1) you want the type of slave the estate can produce and 2) you dont want to do it yourself
[21:21] <arella{C}> okay, why would having someone else train your slave be a good idea, wouldn't some.. personal need be missed in such at thing?
[21:21] <Soulhuntr> Those advantages are not hiddenr or mystical in any way - they are primarily this - if you can survive trying to please SirC, Flagg & I you will do really well pleasing just your onw owner :)
[21:21] <min`> i'm assuming then the Owner would have to be screened for what they exactly want then?
[21:22] <Soulhuntr> min - yes, we would try and help the onwer decide what estate path is right for their property. but their leeway is limited.
[21:22] <arella{C}> sorry, not at, A thing
[21:22] <Soulhuntr> arella - ....
[21:22] <bella{D}> Ken, could you liken Formal training to military basic training?  
[21:22] <Soulhuntr> personal? perhaps. Certainly we do not fill the void of your owner - but then, that isnt what we are for - "formal" implies slightly impersonal :)
[21:23] <Soulhuntr> bella - in its general advantages? yes.
[21:23] <min`> if you limit the Owner's request then howare you raining the property the the Owner's wants?
[21:23] <ravn^Ron> You kind of make that sound like you three are very difficult to please...would you say that is so because of the formality in the training of slaves/subs that are not specifically "yours"?
[21:24] <min`> Correction: if you limit the Owner's request then how are you training the property the way the Owner's wants?
[21:24] <Soulhuntr> min - we arent claiming to - we are producing a product - if that product is what the owner would want then we arew the right place, if they want something radically different then they will find it someplace else. A BMW dealer simply cannot provide you with a skateboard, for example :)
[21:25] <min`> okies gotcha :)
[21:25] <ravn^Ron> SO the owners would have to choose among the areas of "expertise" that you train in?
[21:25] <Soulhuntr> no, I dont think the difficulty comes from that, I simply mean that it is hard to please us because we have rather specific things we enjoy - and they are somewhat different. That shaped every aspect of the estate structure.
[21:25] <curiosity> what about long distance training? how can persons living outside of your area recieve training?
[21:25] * ravn^Ron nods..makes sense..
[21:26] <Soulhuntr> yes, they and we work together inside our "menu" so to speak - thought here is a lot fo flexability there.
[21:26] <min`> correspondence courses? ;)
[21:26] <curiosity> what if there isn;t a bmw dealership in my area <s>
[21:26] <ravn^Ron> <please hold questions for a moment so Soul may catch up, if you wish, msg me with your question and I will paste them into channel when lull/catch up has occured>
[21:26] <Soulhuntr> curiosity - generally - they can't. We will be happy to work with them on a less formal basis - but unless they can see us often it simplyw ont work.
[21:27] <Soulhuntr> Ok :) I think thats it - "over"
[21:27] <ravn^Ron> [21:21] <ravn^Ron> [21:19] <{sonja}JP> so, can an unowned (wanting to be slave) apply? and would there be a point to it?
[21:27] * ravn^Ron pastes the question she thinks wasmissed..if I'm wrong..let me know please
[21:28] <Soulhuntr> Yes, they certainly could, in our view they are acting as their own owner. And yes, it would have a point - they know how they want to be used when they do find an owner... so self trainign is a good thing.
[21:28] <Soulhuntr> "over"
[21:29] <Tatsumi> is the estate a matchmatching service for unowned subs?
[21:29] <Tatsumi> :)
[21:29] <Soulhuntr> Nope :)
[21:29] <Soulhuntr> But we generally keep the really pretty ones ;)
[21:29] <ravn^Ron> Ron: LOL
[21:29] <fairys_ki> lol
[21:29] * Roamer` chuckles
[21:29] <{sonja}JP> LOL
[21:30] <curiosity> what did you mean by "less formal" training
[21:30] <arella{C}> How do you decide what to teach unowned subs, in a sexual area, and do these things change in the case of an owned submissive?
[21:30] <Soulhuntr> No, it doesnt change. The desired skillset/skill-level and use determines what woudl have to be taught - not the situation.
[21:30] <_Cryo_> add in "bisexual training" to that one
[21:31] <Soulhuntr> In both cases they 'owner' may define limitatiosn to be sure - but that may limit what they can become.
[21:31] * Soulhuntr over
[21:32] <ravn^Ron> so basically when deciding what to train a sub/slave in, you work with both the sub (their abilities etc) and their owner (his/her likes/dislikes and what they want) to decide what area of training that you offer would be best for that particular sub..and/or to possibly say that estate training would not be a good thing for that particular sub?
[21:32] <bella{D}> Ken, how might those limitations limit what they may become?
[21:32] <Soulhuntr> yes to rav/Ron...
[21:33] <min`> what areas do your training cover? just service slaves?
[21:34] <Soulhuntr> bella - well, our version of the classic idea of a 'pleasure' slave for examples is rather - broad :) Limitations simplyw oudln't allow them to 'qualify' in any high level for that with us. Ont he other hand, if your trainign a chauffeur/bodyguard then it doesn't matter till you get to a certain point. Then it woudl be difficult to overcome a complete limitations et.
[21:34] <ravn^Ron> If you teach someone not to do something or to behave in a certain way..what's to say that this is going to be what is needed/wanted/desired when the sub leaves the estate?
[21:34] <Lord_Vlad> Soul, can you present a sample curriculum for us?
[21:34] <Soulhuntr> min - I would say 'yes', allowing that "service slaves" is a vague term :) Remember that we see 'service' as an extremely flexible category :)
[21:35] * ravn^Ron is doing her best to keep it general but expected alotof estate specific questions because for many the estate is the only formal training facility they have heard of..
[21:35] <Soulhuntr> LV - that woudl probably be too much detail for this - and it is not that simple anyway :) if youw anna discuss it in email thats cool :)
[21:36] <Soulhuntr> I'll try and be general where I can :)
[21:36] <ravn^Ron> ok...min's question: [21:33] <min`> what areas do your training cover? just service slaves?
[21:36] <Soulhuntr>  min - I would say 'yes', allowing that "service slaves" is a vague term :) Remember that we see 'service' as an extremely flexible category :)
[21:37] * Soulhuntr looks around innocently
[21:37] <ravn^Ron> service can be defined in many ways...from ettiquette (a hostess type service) to a very personalized sexual service submissive...so how does formal training assist in the training of a sub?
[21:38] <ravn^Ron> of a service sub even..sorry..phrased that wrong..
[21:38] <Soulhuntr> formal training can teach 1) specific skills 2) specific attitudes 3) personality changes 4) descipline
[21:39] <{sonja}JP> Soulhuntr.....please dont try to look innocent.....
[21:39] <Tatsumi> lol
[21:39] <Soulhuntr> those things help in almost every case as far as I can tell :)
[21:39] * Soulhuntr >is< innocent
[21:39] <Tatsumi> LOL
[21:39] * arella{C} laughs..
[21:39] <arella{C}> uhmmm.. 
[21:39] * {sonja}JP hears thunder
[21:39] * arella{C} whispers.. liars go to hell
[21:39] <Lord_Vlad> i haVE a penthouse there (in hell) LOL
[21:39] <_Cryo_> no, goats do
[21:39] <ravn^Ron> I know a few people here are wanting some specific info..so lets go to specific skills..you describe 5 training positions, with varying levels of skill under each one..can we take these one at a time starting with pawn?
[21:40] <nessa{JW}>  by formal training aaare we speaking of sending the slave to an establishment, or formal training from one's Dominant, or both ?
[21:40] <Tatsumi> both nessa
[21:40] <Soulhuntr> nessa - int he general sense, either of those woudl apply
[21:40] <nessa{JW}> thank you Tatsumi Sir and Soulhuntr Sir
[21:40] <Tatsumi> hehee, i'm a girl:P
[21:40] * _Cryo_ giggles
[21:40] <nessa{JW}> dang i was gonna ask
[21:40] <Soulhuntr> Dont buy it - shes butch :)
[21:40] <Tatsumi> and just Tats is fine:)
[21:40] <nessa{JW}> sorry, my bad
[21:40] <Tatsumi> LOL, am not Soul:P
[21:41] <Tatsumi> it's cool nessa:)
[21:41] <Soulhuntr> ok .. pawn....
[21:41] <Tatsumi> pawn? isn't that the hardest piece Soul?
[21:41] <Soulhuntr> "the Pawn that most classically matches the definition of a 'general use' submissive.The service of the Pawn is the most obviously selfless, asking little in return for the services rendered"
[21:42] <Soulhuntr> Generally speaking, "O" and most of the marketplace submissives were pawns :)
[21:42] * Soulhuntr will not comment ont he phrase "hardest peice" - but knows a limrick or two...
[21:42] <arella{C}> and he says he's innocent
[21:42] <ravn^Ron> I can see how that would be the most difficult in that the areas of training would be quite far reaching...
[21:43] <Soulhuntr> "there once was a dom from natucket, his ego was carried in buckets..."
[21:43] <Kimi> and learning selflessness is hard too :)
[21:43] <Tatsumi> like in chess, doesn't the pawn turn into other pieces when it gets to the other side of the board (meaning high ranking) ?>
[21:43] <bella{D}> but, Ken, wouldn't that be good basic training regardless of the chosen vocation?
[21:43] * arella{C} smiles to Roamer`
[21:43] <ravn^Ron> I would think it is very hard..so how does one teach selflessness?
[21:43] <Soulhuntr> Yes Tatsumi :) The important thing about pawn is general utility - it is your first response in many ways - so the skilsl are rather broad :)
[21:44] <Soulhuntr> yes bella :) in fact, pawn trainign IS the first thing someone gets - but it only needs to be mastered at a basic level for specialty 'items'
[21:44] <nessa{JW}>    you say "o" was a pawn type, Sir, granted shes fixtional, but do you think she would have been a service type if  her needs were not being met? she got used, and whipped often, never seemed to have to scrub the floors,  etc...
[21:45] <Soulhuntr> teaching selflessness is mostly attempting to show someone the rewards :) selflessness is usually selfish :)
[21:45] <bella{D}> can you clarify that Ken?
[21:45] <ravn^Ron> like what rewards Soul?
[21:45] <Soulhuntr> nessa - oh was not used to her potential - but I believe the 'person' would have done well in service. her desire was attention - the need to be needed - pawn would have done her a lot of good.
[21:45] <nessa{JW}> *nod* thank you Sir
[21:46] <Soulhuntr> obviously someone who could become a high level pawn already has the capacity to enjoy roundablout and subtle rewards for her devotion - teachign her that is more a matter of guided self realization. it cannot be created if the potential does not exist.
[21:47] * {sonja}JP almost understood that
[21:47] <ravn^Ron> How would having one's sub trained in general areas (such as the pawn level) differ in a formal setting from a one on one dominant to their sub setting?
[21:47] <Soulhuntr> those rewards might include house status, the affection of her owner, self satisfaction of being highly skilled and so on.
[21:47] <curiosity> house status?
[21:48] <ravn^Ron> ok..that makes sense...I can see how one can't create selflessness, or the ability to see reward in selflessness if the basics are not already tehre..
[21:48] <Soulhuntr> Generally "informa" training deals much less with low probablility issues or possable situations, it is almost always geared only for the consumption of that one dominant.
[21:48] <_Cryo_> have all of your clientele fit neatly into those categories? or have there been some.. vague ones?
[21:48] <Tatsumi> house status usually refers to one's place in the heirarchy of a multi-household
[21:49] <curiosity> ty
[21:49] <Tatsumi> :)
[21:49] <ravn^Ron> so formal training would make the submissive more adaptable to different situations instead of just having a sub prepared for aspecific situation?
[21:50] <Tatsumi> yes ravn
[21:50] <ravn^Ron>  [21:40] <curiosity> what is the minimum stay/time that they will consider for training?
[21:50] <Soulhuntr> Cry - yes, everyone we worked with could generally find some vocationt hat appealed to them .. though it took time soemtimes :) Those that coudl not either stopped working with us or didnt start. The vocations cover much more potential roles than it seems ;)
[21:50] * Soulhuntr sheesh . I need to get faster :)
[21:51] <Soulhuntr> YEah, what Tatsumi said :)
[21:51] <Tatsumi> lol SOul
[21:51] <ravn^Ron> woops..sorry Soul..
[21:51] <Soulhuntr> minimum times .. I think Flaggs guideline is about a year or so all told for basic skills, with two visits a week or so.
[21:51] <arella{C}> be well..
[21:51] <ravn^Ron> so they don't have to live there 24/7?
[21:52] <arella{C}> would it be less time if they did live there 24/7?
[21:52] <Tatsumi> most cant live on premises ravn. it just isn't practical for people to take time from work & family & such
[21:52] <Soulhuntr> certainly not at the beginning... though I cannot imagine someone reeaching a very high level without full time work.
[21:52] <ravn^Ron> this is true Tats..
[21:53] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Does this training include sexual areas?
[21:53] <Soulhuntr> Living here woudl shorten it some - but a lot of this is learning time that does not get shortened by being with us. It might cut a month or two off.
[21:53] * arella{C} nods
[21:53] <Tatsumi> depends on what you're looking to be trained in or have your sub be trained as Ron
[21:53] <Soulhuntr> Ron - it can, basic pawn does not have to include it ... the rest woudl depend on speciality. A rook accountant would not, a knight hostess might :)
[21:54] * Soulhuntr is getting faster :)
[21:54] <Tatsumi> :)Soul
[21:54] * Soulhuntr whee! look at my fingers go!
[21:54] <ravn^Ron> Ron: hmm..so it depends upon the vocation or special area of training chosen?
[21:54] * bella{D} hands Ken more latte
[21:54] * ravn^Ron laughs..good going Ken!
[21:54] <ravn^Ron> [21:51] <{sonja}JP> how do they sexually train a slave to a Master's desires/wants/specifications?
[21:55] * Soulhuntr is using both hands now
[21:55] <Tatsumi> lol
[21:55] * mizu giggles
[21:55] <Soulhuntr> that depends...
[21:55] <Soulhuntr> for example, we cannot guarentee that she will fuck exactly the way you prefer....
[21:55] <{sonja}JP> may i clarify?
[21:55] <{sonja}JP> my question i mean?
[21:55] <Soulhuntr> but we could go a long way to teachign her how to figure out what would please a guest of yours and be good at that for him.
[21:55] <Soulhuntr> sure :) go for it :)
[21:56] <ravn^Ron> go ahead sonja..:)
[21:56] <arella{C}> then what would be the point of you teaching her how to.. ughm.. fuck..
[21:56] <{sonja}JP> actually, i think that did it...........so you would teach a slave to "learn" her Master's desires....kinda like "look for this sign or that "
[21:56] <Soulhuntr> arella - well, lets take an example :)
[21:56] <Soulhuntr> Dom A wants his sub to become a much better sexual partner for him.....
[21:57] <Soulhuntr> we coudl not really help her become a better oral lover if she was already fairly enthusiastic....
[21:57] <Soulhuntr> but we COULD help her become lots better if she was ... resistant :)
[21:57] <Tatsumi> i would think formal training would involve teaching someone how to enjoy all sexual activites and be proactive or reactive when neccessary. also how to seduce someone and how to be seduced... that kind of thing can be taught to anyone without having to have a specific partner in mind
[21:57] <Tatsumi> :)
[21:58] <Soulhuntr> Dom B is happyw ith her performance....
[21:58] <Soulhuntr> but he wants her to be able to be "passed around" at parties .. or to convince business associates that she just couldnt resist them...
[21:58] <Soulhuntr> that, we can help with :)
[21:58] <{sonja}JP> o me o myo
[21:58] <Soulhuntr> In a way, there are sexual things that a dom might want that can ONLY be learned at the hands of someone other than him/her.
[21:59] * Soulhuntr thanks tats for the assist
[21:59] <{sonja}JP> for example?
[21:59] <Soulhuntr> oh... hwo to fuck like she loves the guy when she doesnt care if he lives or dies :)
[21:59] <Tatsumi> np Soul:) hope it's helping, not confusing:)
[21:59] <ravn^Ron> In other words, how to fake enjoyment?
[21:59] <Soulhuntr> that woudl be hard for her master to teach her - she loves him. How could he test it?
[22:00] <ravn^Ron> I can see taht Ken..
[22:00] <ravn^Ron> raven has a few questions...
[22:00] <ravn^Ron> would formal training aide a dominantin deciding whether or not a particular sub will meet his/her excpectations without finding out the hard way (such as live together for a while, then find that it jsut won'twork and people get hurt)?
[22:00] <ravn^Ron> dominant in deciding..even..
[22:01] <nessa{JW}>  that i can see, Soulhuntr Sir, what i cant understand  and i understand thats a personal thing for me, is why a dominant would want to give someone else the pleasure of teaching their property how  to be better in bed.  But i can see how having a third party would help if you wanted to have tour slave passed around
[22:01] <Soulhuntr> rR - in one aspect, sure. but we can also show them how to find the good int he situation... additionally, we can teach them how to figure out what turns their guest on, and supply it, in minimum time.
[22:01] <min`> formal training better for poly households than a one on one D/s relationship, right?
[22:01] <Soulhuntr> ok... slow down a sec :)
[22:01] <Soulhuntr> nessa....
[22:03] <Soulhuntr> that is a personal thing indeed - if they didnt want that skill taught by us, then they would have to pick a vocationt hat didnt involve sexual use - or not have us work with her.
[22:03] <Soulhuntr> rR....
[22:03] <Soulhuntr> yes, that could be one motivation.
[22:03] * Soulhuntr is caught up I think :)
[22:03] <ravn^Ron> not yet Soul...question that was lost:
[22:03] <ravn^Ron> [22:01] <min`> formal training better for poly households than a one on one D/s relationship, right?
[22:04] <Soulhuntr> ah :)
[22:04] <Soulhuntr> no. I dont think it matters :)
[22:04] <Soulhuntr> ok. .. now I'm done :)
[22:05] <ravn^Ron> Would formal training be helpful in that some people do not know how to train a sub but do know what they want the sub to be able to do?
[22:05] <ravn^Ron> Ron: or as a sub question: Do you train dominants as well?
[22:06] <Soulhuntr> possibly - too much woudl depend on the specific person.
[22:06] <{sonja}JP> good question....
[22:06] <Soulhuntr> No, we do not train dominants as dominants, though it would be possible for a dom to train with us as a sub.
[22:11] <ravn^Ron> [22:01] <min`> formal training better for poly households than a one on one D/s relationship, right?
[22:12] <Tatsumi> ravn, SOul said it didn't matter what kind of household. poly or mono.
[22:12] <Soulhuntr> ok :) No, I dont think it is more or less useful for poly or single. Though generally households open to the idea of formal trainign seem to be more open to poly.
[22:12] <_Cryo_> "What defines formal training?"
[22:12] * curiosity thinks bella is doing a great job of typing with the pencil <g>
[22:12] <ravn^Ron> whoops..sorry I didn't see the response..thanks Tatsumi :)
[22:13] <Soulhuntr> Cryo -
[22:13] <ravn^Ron> Ron: How would training a dom as a sub, be helpful?
[22:13] <Soulhuntr> in my mind, formal training is meant to be seen/used/useful/applied outside the casual on-on-one realtionship.
[22:14] <Tig-Grrr> hopefully formal training does not mean to get dressed up in a tuxedo...hehehe
[22:14] <fadey> casual?
[22:14] <Soulhuntr> think of the differences between a formal dinner or a casual one - its tone and atmosphere and intent as much as specific actions.
[22:15] <ravn^Ron> Soul, my buffer is not big enough..so I can't paste your definition of formal training from earlier to answer Tig-Grrr's question...
[22:15] <Soulhuntr> no problem :)
[22:15] <Soulhuntr> that cover it for ya ?
[22:15] <arella{C}> [21:12] <Soulhuntr> For our purposes, formal training means that there is a fairly clear set of expectations and rules that everyone involved understands - also, that that trainign is made with an eye for its usefulness and appreciation by those who might not know the rules.
[22:15] <arella{C}> [21:12] <Soulhuntr> So...
[22:15] <ravn^Ron> thanks gf :()
[22:15] <arella{C}> [21:12] <Soulhuntr> while someone may have lots of rule sint heir relationship...
[22:15] <arella{C}> [21:12] <Soulhuntr> it woudl not really be "formal" if it didn't have that element of display about it. Like "formal" dress as opposed to casual.
[22:15] <arella{C}> [21:13] * Soulhuntr "over"
[22:15] <ravn^Ron> :)) even
[22:15] * _Flagg considers alternate definitions....
[22:16] <Soulhuntr> shoot flagg :)
[22:16] <arella{C}> yw gf :)
[22:16] * Soulhuntr would welcome the input
[22:16] <ravn^Ron> I defined it as training of the sub by someone other than his/her particular owner..usually an outside source..
[22:16] <bella{D}> wouldn't formal training also indicate a lack of 'personal' involvement/emotional overtones
[22:16] <ravn^Ron> go ahead Flagg..what's your definition?
[22:16] <bella{D}> So, a sub is trained for service rather than love?
[22:17] <Soulhuntr> bella - yes :)
[22:17] * bella{D} gives herself a cookie
[22:17] * bella{D} shares with Ken and Tats...*smiles*
[22:18] <ravn^Ron> Could formal training negatively impact training in general in that it be taken as the "only" way to train a sub?
[22:18] <Soulhuntr> hmmm.....
[22:18] <Soulhuntr> no. I dont think so. I can't see the problem. ...
[22:19] <fadey> do love and other such romantic entaglements make personal training harder?  if so, that would seem to be one of the main benefits of formal training
[22:19] <_Flagg> Training revolving around an internally consistent and ordered structure, based more cocretelt in protocol than emotional motivation.
[22:19] <Soulhuntr> I also woudl nto be honest if I didnt say I rarelyc onsider what most folks call trainign as training in any sense. So the "formal" is meant to almost differentiate it from a misused term.
[22:19] <fadey> also it would seem to make your motivations clearer.. if you are serving someone aside from your lover, you are serving for the sake of service
[22:19] <ravn^Ron> I would think that when it comes to training one's own sub, the romantic entanglements could make it more difficult for the dom to be as strict as he/she mgiht normally be with someone he/she did not love..
[22:20] <Tatsumi> i agree fadey
[22:20] <Tatsumi> yes ravn, i agree
[22:20] <Soulhuntr> fadey - yes, it is more difficult - but that isnt the only reason to bring in outsiders. There is an issue of variety and perspective. if one person trains a sub she is good for serving that one person, if 4 (us threew and her onwer) do it she can serve anyone.
[22:20] <{sonja}JP> i think it might make it more difficult, but it shouldnt stop it....
[22:20] <bella{D}> Also raven, it is more difficult on the sub when the love is there.
[22:21] <ravn^Ron> how so bella?
[22:21] <ravn^Ron> makes sense to me Soul that outsider training could make the sub better able to serve in a wider range of situations, dealing with more than one dominant...
[22:21] <{sonja}JP> when you love someone, you should have an even more vested interest in their well-being.....often times a subs wellbeing depends on her being able to service/serve/please/etc, her Master/Dom
[22:21] <bella{D}> it is easier to take correction personally...to develop 'issues'...*smiles*
[22:21] <ravn^Ron> yes bella..that makes sense to me..
[22:21] <Kimi> <-agrees with bella
[22:22] <ravn^Ron> true sonja..but sometimes the love gets in the way ..for example,punishment..sometimes people can say to themselves.."I can't really hurt her, I love her" ..simply because corporal punishment is entirely different from pain play for pleasure..
[22:22] <ravn^Ron> the love can also cause a dominant to allow more leeway than they would otherwise...more room for "moods" and such..
[22:23] <{sonja}JP> but one shouldnt let it get in the way toooo much..........much in the same way a parent should discipline their child
[22:23] <{sonja}JP> just because you love them, doesnt mean you shouldnt teach them what is right or wrong
[22:23] <bella{D}> i would also think the desire to HATE the person training you would be easier to deal with in a formal setting, you are not supposed to love them.
[22:23] <ravn^Ron> exactly sonja! and finding that middle ground is not always easy...so for some, haivng an outsider provide training might be easier...
[22:23] <Soulhuntr> desire to hate?
[22:23] <{sonja}JP> but then, it only stays that way if the sub stays "perfectly trained"
[22:24] <Tatsumi> SOul, like a drill sarge
[22:24] <ravn^Ron> Could an emotional tie develop during formal training that could inhibit the training or cause problems with the particular sub's owner?
[22:24] <Tatsumi> you hate him but you follow his direction anyway for a greater purpose
[22:24] <Lord_Vlad> I hurt her *because* I love her. If she doesn't experience punishment when needed, she doesn't grow.
[22:24] <{sonja}JP> if the Dom didnt have to go thru the struggle of training......how does he continue disciplining
[22:24] <bella{D}> when pushed...that negative feeling can confuse one in a romantic involvement
[22:24] <ravn^Ron> I agree Lord_Vlad
[22:25] * Lord_Vlad agrees with Tatsumi
[22:25] <Tatsumi> ravn, it is possible if the trainee spends too much time with 1 trainer
[22:25] <Soulhuntr> sonja - it's easy. he knows our standards - if she doesnt meet it he punishes her - it is easier for him often because she now knows that bitching and complaining wont help avoid it.
[22:25] <Tatsumi> that is one of the reasons for the 3 in the estate ( i think )
[22:25] <ravn^Ron> I think that might heavily rely upon how the sub views themselves and punishment's role in the relationship...a sub who knows they are pretty good at what they do most of the time, would  be less apt to take a punishment so personally that it totally overshadows their future actions...
[22:25] <ravn^Ron> that would make sense to me Tatsumi
[22:26] * ravn^Ron tries to keep up as discussion splits into two threads..
[22:26] * Soulhuntr 's head explodes :)
[22:26] <ravn^Ron> need a break Soul?
[22:26] <Tatsumi> lol
[22:26] * {sonja}JP ducks
[22:26] <{sonja}JP> icky
[22:26] * bella{D} casts a clean cantrip
[22:26] * ravn^Ron giggles and gets the duct tape beacuse it works on everything and quickly tapes Soul's head before it can explode too much..
[22:26] * MrAmax has trouble keeping up with single threads..
[22:26] <Soulhuntr> ok... yes, the fact that we are three helps a lot with familiarity issues of all types :)
[22:26] <Tatsumi> brb
[22:27] * Lord_Vlad agrees with Ron
[22:27] * arella{C} sends blackrose after the mop..
[22:27] <Lord_Vlad> rofl
[22:27] <Lord_Vlad> someone get a mop...clean up that mess! lol
[22:28] <ravn^Ron> LOL
[22:28] * Soulhuntr thinsk he is all caught up
[22:28] <ravn^Ron> you are..I'm trying to think of a general question to ask next...anyone have one?
[22:28] * ravn^Ron is trying to keep to general training questions first..estate specific second..
[22:29] <Tatsumi> ok
[22:29] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Have you ever had a submissive fall in "love" with one of the trainers at the estate and did that make the formal training more difficult or easier?
[22:29] <sierra_> love is a nasty, messy, disorderly thing.
[22:29] <bella{D}> sierra of the logical mind...*smiles*
[22:30] <Soulhuntr> hmmm...
[22:30] <Tatsumi> how can you tell when someone is done with their training and "ready to go back into the world"?
[22:30] <Tatsumi> lol sierra
[22:30] <Soulhuntr> I dont know of "rogue" love being a real problem for us so far.
[22:30] <{sonja}JP> messy.......sometimes.........disorderly.....occasionally......nasty......well only in mindset :)
[22:30] <Soulhuntr> when they can carry the bucket of coals without crying :)
[22:30] <bella{D}> nasty when misplaced.
[22:30] <ravn^Ron> Ron:messy sometimes, disorderly occasionally..nasty..only when done right <eg>
[22:31] <arella{C}> the bucket of coals?
[22:31] <Soulhuntr> Seriously....
[22:31] <ravn^Ron> raven shakes her head and giggles...
[22:31] <{sonja}JP> oh Ron......get outtta there :)
[22:31] <ravn^Ron> raven: i think he likes the gutter sonja..:)
[22:31] <Tatsumi> lol
[22:31] <{sonja}JP> only M and girlies are allowed in my head :)
[22:31] <Soulhuntr> someone's being "done" has a lot to do with what level of skill thyey wanted to attain. It's a judgment call. Technically ti si voted on by all threee trainers/
[22:31] <ravn^Ron> LOLOL sonja
[22:31] <ravn^Ron> Ron: LOLOL Sonja
[22:31] <ravn^Ron> Ron: just getting carry over from raven and arella sonja.. :)
[22:32] <ravn^Ron> do journals have any use in formal training? if so, what? if not, why not?
[22:32] <ravn^Ron> (anyone can answer, or add their opinions folks)
[22:32] <bella{D}> Ken, Curiosity had asked earlier about LD training...you had mentioned something about it being less formal.  Does that mean that LD training IS a possibility?
[22:32] <Soulhuntr> ok.....
[22:33] <Soulhuntr> >i< dont use journals much - Flagg is rather fond of them. As for why not, I am much more of a verbal guy.
[22:33] <bella{D}> I think unedited journals help a lot.
[22:33] <{sonja}JP> no puter for training journal....
[22:33] <Soulhuntr> 2) LD woudl only work as something from in between visits. but we will often talk to someone "unofficially" if they have specific questions.
[22:33] <ravn^Ron> Soul, what if the sub is just learning to be confident/proficient in speaking her thoughts/feelings verbally?
[22:34] <ravn^Ron> do you then seek another way of finding out what she thinks/feels while working on making her more proficient inspeaking them?
[22:34] <ravn^Ron> how so bella?
[22:35] <Soulhuntr> personally, No. I generally jsut yell till they cry and spill their guts :)
[22:35] * {sonja}JP thinks that with only verbalization.......there is no way to "look back" on progress
[22:35] <ravn^Ron> reminiscing could accomplish that sonja :)
[22:35] <{sonja}JP> NO one ever "remembers" anything precisely
[22:36] <Tatsumi> you think Soul is kidding... he's not
[22:36] <fadey> i find that the only real measure of progress for me is what i see inside myself..not so much what i have on paper
[22:36] <ravn^Ron> doesn't yelling just not work in some cases?
[22:36] <_Cryo_> I use the journal to watch the behavior development and thought processes.
[22:36] <bella{D}> it is a place for the sub to write down everything - thoughts feelings etc, without fear of repercussion.  That makes it more honest, and thusly of use in further training
[22:36] <ravn^Ron> I didn't think he was kidding Tatsumi..
[22:36] <arella{C}> what if the yelling just caused the person to become More closed?
[22:36] <Soulhuntr> I dont mind if someone keeps a journal for themselves, but I wouldnt read it often. If I did then they would be talking "to" me, not themselves. There is no such thing as "unedited" expression when you knwo someone else will read it.
[22:36] <Tatsumi> they need to get over it in a formal environment arella
[22:36] <{sonja}JP> true
[22:36] <ravn^Ron> yelling would just make me angry...and I'd start yelling back..not good..no constructive thoughts would come out..
[22:36] <fadey> i agree wholeheartedly with the last thing you said Soul about no such thing as unedited
[22:37] <_Cryo_> it makes it easier to say "go look back in November and see how you were, versus what you are now"
[22:37] <arella{C}> yelling makes me close down, compleatly, I wouldn't cry, I'd just tell myself I didn't give a shit and nothing anyoen could say would matter anymore
[22:37] <{sonja}JP> M just keeps saying "what" pretty quietly, till i spill my guts........not loud.......just persistent
[22:37] <Tatsumi> ravn, ever have a boss who yelled? i have and it was hard not to yell back but i got used to it eventually. most service subs are able to deal with it.
[22:37] <Soulhuntr> True enough... reprimands are not always gentle, nor does an owner always hav the luxury of a heart to heart, I have a lot of times simply demanded to be told the problem... given my view on it and moved on in a minute or two. There simply is not always the luxury or desire to be a therapist.
[22:38] <ravn^Ron> It depends on whether or not a person was taught how to write unedited in a journal..but I have to agree that there are indeed times when writing in a journal, that you know someone else is going to read, you want to edit your thoughts...it's a matter of training onself not to do that..
[22:38] <Soulhuntr> arella - the purpose is NOT to make you feel better , the purpose is to get you back on track .. if you close down but correct the error or atttude that is fine by me.
[22:38] <bella{D}> exactly raven...
[22:38] <ravn^Ron> true Tatsumi..(on the yelling)
[22:39] * _Flagg would like to contribute a comment...
[22:39] <Soulhuntr> My DI yelled at me all the time, my Sensei does it now... my 'feelings' are not the issue, the issue is getting a point accross.
[22:39] <ravn^Ron> so formal training's purpose is behavior modification only?
[22:39] <Soulhuntr> Shoot big guy!
[22:39] <ravn^Ron> go ahead Flagg :))
[22:39] * {sonja}JP trained herself not to yell back to a screaming ex husband
[22:39] <Soulhuntr> ravn - no, but sometimes a reprimands purpose is that only.
[22:39] <Lord_Vlad> moonchild: that sounds like my *M* sonja
[22:39] <ravn^Ron> I'm not sure that I can agree that a sub's feelings are not an issue with BDSM...
[22:39] * Lord_Vlad says: It takes what it takes...
[22:40] <ravn^Ron> AHhhhhhh.,.ok Soul..thanks for the clarification that makes sense :)
[22:40] <ravn^Ron> however, I can see where the feelings are not a major issue in a formal training arrangement..
[22:40] <Tatsumi> i dont know that they are an issue with formal training ravn
[22:40] <ravn^Ron> sorry all..my mind is working in fragments..
[22:40] <Soulhuntr> Example: if a submissive has some issue that is eating her up in side 5 minutes before guest arrive - if she cannot control it then possible "instant catharsis" will help :)
[22:40] <mizu> most of the time raven, than and condiotioning
[22:40] <Tatsumi> you're feelings should be betweeen you and your owner
[22:41] <_Flagg> arella, closing down is a choice. one can learn to rise above it, or succumb to it. It is not inevitable.
[22:41] * Soulhuntr looks for Flaggs comment - I am sure he is gonna punish me :(
[22:41] * ravn^Ron thinks of Flagg punishing Soulhuntr and rolls around laughing hysterically..ohmy!!!!!!!!!!
[22:41] <Tatsumi> lol Soul
[22:41] * arella{C} giggles
[22:41] <_Flagg> sometimes feelings have to take a back seat.
[22:41] <bella{D}> feelings, even in an informal relationship, are not always the issue.
[22:41] <ravn^Ron> I understand and agree with that...
[22:42] * ravn^Ron rephrases...I was just wanting to know whether or not the sub's feelings matter at all in a formal training situation..and got an answer.. :)
[22:43] <ravn^Ron> OK..I'm sure people have estate specific questions they want to ask...shall we open to them now?
[22:43] <Soulhuntr> 'k
[22:43] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Is there a cost involved in training at the estate?
[22:44] <Soulhuntr> There is expense, but no fee.
[22:44] <Soulhuntr> We have standardised leather (collars, cuffs and so on) - the trainee purchases her own set directly fromt he store.
[22:44] <ravn^Ron> Ron: So it would cost for the sub's expenses, but there is no fee for services rendered (the actual training)...
[22:44] <ravn^Ron> raven: makes sense..
[22:44] <Tatsumi> trainees must find lodging, and pay for thier own leathers/toys
[22:44] <Soulhuntr> Aside from 2000$ a day room and board its free :)
[22:45] <ravn^Ron> ROFL
[22:45] <Tatsumi> lol
[22:45] <Tatsumi> he's kidding:P
[22:45] <ravn^Ron> I thought so..:)
[22:45] <ravn^Ron> Ron: laughing...that's what it's costing me to keep her here!
[22:45] <ravn^Ron> raven: Ahh..so you really want to get rid of me?? I see..I knew it..<joke>
[22:45] <Tatsumi> hehehe
[22:45] <ravn^Ron> raven gets the *glare* ...mmmmmmm..shutting up now..
[22:46] * {sonja}JP ponders how smart raven is...
[22:46] <ravn^Ron> not very sonja...:)
[22:46] * ravn^Ron keeps letting her mouth run further than it should...
[22:46] <bella{D}> Ken, do you only accept those that can be there for the regular sessions?
[22:46] <_Cryo_> hmm
[22:47] <Soulhuntr> Yes, generally speaking (Flagg?)
[22:48] <ravn^Ron> What do you mean by "vocation" Ken?
[22:48] <Tatsumi> can i steal Soul for a minute?
[22:48] <ravn^Ron> sure :)
[22:48] <_Flagg> did not suggest it was easy.But this is about overcoming one's own shortcomings. It's about effort.
[22:48] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Be sure to send him back in one peice..
[22:48] * {sonja}JP thinks she knows the answer but wants to ask anyways........if you dont charge for your training, why do you do it?
[22:48] <Soulhuntr> brb 1 minute, I am sure Flagg can cover :)
[22:48] <_Cryo_> how successful has formal training been?
[22:49] <_Cryo_> percentage wise
[22:49] <_Cryo_> like, out of how many come in for a session, how many are walking out?
[22:49] <Tatsumi> good night !
[22:49] <_Cryo_> and how many crawl out :)
[22:50] <ravn^Ron> Flagg is lagged and I believe Soul is AFK...want to take a stab at answering Kimiko?
[22:50] <Kimi> sure I can try :)
[22:50] <Kimi> which one first?
[22:50] <ravn^Ron> cool :)
[22:50] <ravn^Ron> lets start with sonja's since she typed in first...then Cryo's..
[22:50] <Kimi> I asked
[22:51] <ravn^Ron> cheaper than what mizu?
[22:51] <{sonja}JP> mine last, it is almost 11, it would be a good ender - doncha think?
[22:51] <Kimi> They train because they had a standard in which they wanted to see in their own submissives and since no one else was doing it decided to offer it. They also enjoy training.
[22:52] <ravn^Ron> makes sense Kimi :)
[22:52] <Kimi> Cryo...to my knowledge there hasn't been a "completed" trainee...but I do know that of the Trainee's I know personally, we have all grown
[22:53] <ravn^Ron> since training is ongoing, in that desires likes/dislikes tend to change over time, could there essentially be a "completed" trainee?
[22:54] <Lord_Vlad> Yikes! ;-)
[22:54] <Kimi> I would think that if a Trainee came to the estate instated by an owner or themselves and only did basic..there could be a completed trainee
[22:54] <ravn^Ron> ok..I can see that...
[22:54] <Kimi> if likes/dislikes changed and they wanted to come back ...that would be possible
[22:55] <ravn^Ron> that makes sense as well Kimiko...
[22:55] <Kimi> :) i'm glad i can help answer
[22:55] <ravn^Ron> Kimiko, can you overview the 5 training vocations and how they differ?
[22:55] <Kimi> Sure.
[22:57] <Kimi> Pawn...general use...hardest to achieve because of the range of skill that need to be learned successfully
[22:57] <Kimi> Bishop...confidant, companion. hard because a closeness to the owner is needed...requires self dedication and motivation not to let service slip
[22:57] <Kimi> or respect slip
[22:58] <Kimi> do you need me to wait?
[22:58] <ravn^Ron> nope Kimi..go for it :)
[22:58] <ravn^Ron> they were all 5minutes behind anyway.. :)
[22:58] <ravn^Ron> and the log will be going on web site..so they can see/read the parts they missed if they want to :)
[22:59] <Kimi> Knight..a specific skill that they are good at requiring subtlety. for example a diplomat, the girl you'd send to the party to gather info for you
[22:59] <Soulhuntr> is bak
[22:59] <Kimi> Rook...specific skill though less subtle...cook, chaufeer...
[22:59] * Soulhuntr watches Kimi type :)
[23:00] <Kimi> Queen...a manager. someone you could entrust the running of your house or buisness to. would have authority over others in the absence of the owner (not necessarily the most important or highest status position)
[23:00] <Kimi> there ya go
[23:01] <{sonja}JP> ty Kimi
[23:01] <Kimi> welcome :)
[23:01] <ravn^Ron> Can  one train in more than one vocation?
[23:01] <fadey> i was wonder, when you guys get a minute, if there were specific personality attributes that are more important when doing formal training, as opposed to a casual one on one training situation..?
[23:01] <Soulhuntr> yes, in theory. in practice the time demands would be extreme
[23:01] <bella{D}> so, would a Queen be similar to a major domo?
[23:01] * {sonja}JP agrees with the second part of Lord_Vlad's statement
[23:02] <Soulhuntr> bella - it could e... Queen is more often likened to the old royal concept of consort.
[23:03] <Soulhuntr> A majordomo could be a queen, a rook or a night.
[23:03] <Soulhuntr> a majordomo typically runs a house - a queen could also represent one in outside affairs.
[23:03] <bella{D}> ack..okay..*smiles*...
[23:03] <ravn^Ron> How do you teach the things needed for say a queen to manage/run a household? Wouldn't there have to be a rather general curriculum in that vocation? such as learning budgets and things..
[23:04] <bella{D}> so, the vocation of a major domo would depend on their other uses?
[23:04] <Soulhuntr> rR - yes, it would be , and often part of out job IS to set up a schedule of external schooling and training.
[23:04] <Soulhuntr> bella - yes.
[23:05] <ravn^Ron> raven: that makes sense  Soul..
[23:05] <ravn^Ron> anyone else have estate specific questions?
[23:08] <ravn^Ron> Soulhuntr, Kimiko, Flagg and Tatsumi (yes I know they aren't still here)..Thank you all for being here, I appreciate it. :)
[23:08] <ravn^Ron> thanks all...it went extremely well.. :)