Presents:
BDSM Discussion 34
D/s In
Marriage
All Comments Posted Here With Permission Of The Participants
[21:04] *
ravn^Ron says Hello and welcome to #Leather_and_Roses' weekly discussions
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[21:06] <ravn^Ron> I hope you enjoy tonight's discussion, the topic is D/s In Marriage
[21:06] <ravn^Ron> lets start with a definition of d/s that we can agree on..what is d/s to you?
[21:07] <ravn^Ron> Ron: It is a relationship with a dominant and a submissive
[21:07] <ravn^Ron> raven: the power exchange between a dominant and a submissive that is not just "in the bedroom"
[21:09] <EZRiser> I agree with you raven .. <s>
[21:09] <bellaD> yes..and i agree, D/s is a power based relationship that goes beyond sex to the everyday
[21:09] <ravn^Ron> ok..so since no one has disagreed..can we agree to use that definition for the purpose of this discussion?
[21:09] <sim> There is an allocation of power
[21:09] <sim> allocation too..
[21:10] * ravn^Ron smiles...
[21:10] * sim shuts up
[21:10] <ravn^Ron> cool!
[21:10] <star{M}> I agree :)
[21:10] <ravn^Ron> no simi..don't shut up
[21:10] <arella{C}> don't simi..
[21:10] <{sonja}JP> sure
[21:10] * ravn^Ron was smiling because people were talking
[21:10] * bellaD whispers to simi, ya know, if we all agree on a definition, Florida will freeze over...
[21:10] <sim> Well if we all agree, then I won't bring my definition to the channel
[21:10] <ravn^Ron> LOLOL Bella
[21:10] <sim> LMAO bella
[21:10] <ravn^Ron> give your definition simi..that's how discussions start..
[21:11] <sim> The allocation is defined (however and to what extent that may be)...
[21:11] <EZRiser> hmmm .. frozen orange juice .. what a unique concept ....
[21:11] <partygal> hmmm well one of the problems in my marriage was that he was a switch and expected me to and it really strained our relationship
[21:11] <sim> to the dominant.
[21:11] <ravn^Ron> I can see how it would partygal
[21:12] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Yikes partygal
[21:12] * ravn^Ron listens to simi..
[21:12] <sim> Dom maintains, for all intents and purposes, the lead.
[21:12] <sim> I think that may be generic enough to be applicable
[21:13] <sim> rather, a wide reaching application
[21:13] <ravn^Ron> Ron: agrees with simi
[21:13] <ravn^Ron> raven agrees to
[21:14] <sim> Bella, start up the space heater .. LOLOL
[21:14] <ravn^Ron> What comparison would you draw, if any, between a d/s relationship and the general consensus of marriages say 50 years ago?
[21:14] <sim> It's fixing' to get CHILLY in Florida
[21:14] <arella{C}> it isn't already??
[21:14] * sim scoffs. Nope arella :)
[21:14] * LAR^AFK notes that in a male Dom household the roles ARE similar
[21:15] <bellaD> lol sim!!
[21:15] * arella{C} looks at Ron the polar bear.. thought you said it was like this everywhere!
[21:15] <LAR^AFK> But the biggest difference appears to be overt consent
[21:15] <ravn^Ron> Ron: It is!! it *really* is
[21:15] <sim> I think there are many similarities, raven.
[21:15] <arella{C}> I would think, the roles are quite similar raven..
[21:15] <ravn^Ron> you wouldn't say that a wife basically consented to the roles of power in the marriage 50 years ago Lar?
[21:15] <bellaD> also, i think the difference is that rather than the 'wife' feeling it is her duty to serve and obey..it is her joy to
[21:16] <sim> I think the consent was expected then, whereas it isn't now.
[21:16] <ravn^Ron> I agree simi
[21:16] <partygal> yes
[21:16] <Soulhuntr> I think so Ron, it seems clear many of the women of the time were very happy with the roles.
[21:16] <sim> In fact, in this age, it's frowned upon
[21:16] <Soulhuntr> IT seems to me that they consented rather nicely :)
[21:16] <EZRiser> might be that's part of the reason 'obey' has been taken out of marriage vows nowadays ..
[21:16] <ravn^Ron> Ron: I agree with bela that 50 years ago it was expected and that since that is the way it was when women went into the relationship they were happy in it...
[21:17] <arella{C}> the male (Ussually) is in charge, the woman expected to be told what to do to please her husband, He took care of all of the control aspects of the relationship, paying the bills, deciding what vacation would be taken..
[21:17] <arella{C}> so on..
[21:17] <star{M}> 50 years ago? in some marriages it is similar today still :)
[21:17] <ravn^Ron> I agree as well sim...since it is generally frowned upon, how does a d/s couple handle that friction?
[21:17] <sim> In many ways I believe it was a lateral move in women's eyes of that era
[21:17] <ravn^Ron> true arella
[21:17] <sim> From dominant father to dominant husband
[21:17] <bellaD> also though, in the 50s, most women stayed home and took care of things...
[21:17] <ravn^Ron> true as well star...but it isn't as prevalent which is why I chose 50 yrs ago..:)
[21:17] <Soulhuntr> The largest difference would seem, to me, that in the 50's the male control was actually limited - he was expected to be in charge but to run his house in a fairly narrow and 'normal' fashion. In a BDSM house the control is much farther reaching. For example, imagine a 50's husband demanding golden showers :)
[21:18] <bellaD> women working full-time made that style of relationship less desirable for the woman
[21:18] <ravn^Ron> I can't imagine that Soul..you are right..
[21:18] <star{M}> true
[21:18] <{sonja}JP> i think it is a matter of concentration.....
[21:19] <ravn^Ron> yes bella it did
[21:19] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Yes I agree bella
[21:19] <{sonja}JP> the men never learned how to concentrate on "guiding" the wives
[21:19] <Mordax> The difference today is choices. Back then, the wife did not have much choice on whether to be a sub or not
[21:19] <{sonja}JP> and the women never learned how to concentrate on what they were doing
[21:19] <bellaD> Also, Ken, back then it was just what she did...in a D/s relationship, there is a different focus
[21:19] <ravn^Ron> true Mordax..
[21:19] <arella{C}> true Mordax, but she was raised to be such, and so she was, or she didn't get married..
[21:20] <arella{C}> or if she did, she picked the husband that she could control..
[21:20] <Mordax> The beauty of our relationship is that star gives control of her own free will nacho choice
[21:20] <sim> Remember the TV shows in the 50's and 60's where the issue of the wife working came up.. and it was horrific!
[21:20] <Patty50> the same with sex back then - the women were expected to have sex with their husbands whether they wanted to or not
[21:20] <ravn^Ron> I tend to think the women then were raised to be rather submissive to the man...
[21:20] <ravn^Ron> yes simi!
[21:21] <sim> Men were threatened by the concept of not being the sole provider... it was a slam to his manlihood
[21:21] <bellaD> Also, men were raised to believe they would take over their household in that fashion...they were also trained to be dominant
[21:21] <sim> Absolutely
[21:21] <Mordax> ...and *nobody* would want a slam to their manlihood...
[21:21] <Soulhuntr> For that matter, I don't think that there was an emphasis on submission. The women of the time were not expected to accept physical discipline, or to suffer in silence or to not show an attitude. Granted, that is not universal in BDSM, but many of the relationships of the time were volatile within the role lines.
[21:21] <ravn^Ron> Ron: I agree bellaD
[21:21] <{sonja}JP> actually, i don't think they were trained to be dominant.....
[21:21] <sim> Men were raised to be the sole providers of their households.. to be less was to be inferior
[21:21] <ravn^Ron> Ron: LOL Mordax
[21:22] <LAR^AFK> I would say in the 50's consent was hardly an issue. A female had little choice. She could not get separate credit, she could not support herself sufficiently. Without exceptional effort at least. But that is not part of the discussion. My point was, that the STRUCTURE is similar to a 50's style marriage. In the sense there IS a dominant partner who is acknowledged as such
[21:22] <sim> Oops, sorry LAR
[21:22] <bellaD> yes..that is true LAR
[21:22] <Soulhuntr> I agree sonja, I don't think the men were trained in it at all, any more than the women were trained to submit. It was a expected role - doing it WELL was not an issue.
[21:22] <{sonja}JP> i think they were trained to expect service because they were male, which to me is not a Dominant
[21:22] <ravn^Ron> raven: I think that depends on who raised the women Soul..my mother was raised to accept being "hit" by her husband and to suffer silently never give attitude and all that..always sweet and always "happy"..it didn't work
[21:22] <sim> I would agree, Ken
[21:22] <arella{C}> they weren't expected to accept physical discipline Soulhuntr?
[21:22] <Mordax> I disagree that women were not expected to accept physical discipline.
[21:22] <{sonja}JP> exactly....wish i had said that *giggle*
[21:22] <ravn^Ron> yes I agree Lar
[21:23] <bellaD> okay,, let me rephrase that...they weren't trained to, but society expected them to assume that role
[21:23] * arella{C} kinda thought the fact that it wasn't illegal to beat your wife if you thought she needed it kinda meant it was the other way
[21:23] <Soulhuntr> arella - no, not in the he way we know... a caning, a whipping, that short of thing.
[21:23] <Soulhuntr> arella - it was illegal :)
[21:23] <Soulhuntr> Assault did include women you know :)
[21:24] <ravn^Ron> actually Soul in some states there are still laws on the book that allow the husband to beat the wife..in Beuafort SC for example, it is legal on Sunday mornings to beat your wife on the steps of the church...no one does it, but the law is still on the books..
[21:24] <ravn^Ron> Ron: in the 50
[21:24] <min`> thinking back to the 50's advertising in magazines and all, the only time you saw a man in the kitchen he was sitting at the table
[21:24] <ravn^Ron> ROn: in the 50's if a man hit his wife..it was considered "their" business...no one else's..
[21:25] <ravn^Ron> raven: I heard someone use the term "Domestic discipline" to describe that once..but even they admitted that punching and such were outside that realm of discipline..
[21:25] <bellaD> i don't think physical discipline was expected...but, it was accepted
[21:25] <sim> My parents were rather modern, but I was born in '65. I don't have personal experience to draw from
[21:25] <ravn^Ron> yes bellaD
[21:25] <Mordax> Look at any episode of I Love Lucy. Ricky would spank Lucy if she disobeyed.
[21:25] <bellaD> my parents lived a D/s marriage...and in a 50's style..minus the donna reed dresses...
[21:25] <ravn^Ron> ok..so marriage now a days is very different from what it was..how does one bring D/s into an existing "vanilla" marriage?
[21:26] <ravn^Ron> I agree Mordax...in fact those episodes used to get me rather warm..,<giggle>
[21:26] <bellaD> it depends on the couple...
[21:26] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Very carefully
[21:26] <arella{C}> with lots of protestations from outside sources!?
[21:26] <sim> I have no idea, frankly... gonna watch at this point
[21:26] * min` shrugs cause i'm bringing marriage into a D/s relationship
[21:26] <bellaD> i tried with my ex...he made a wonderful example of domineering..but not dominant
[21:26] <sim> likewise, min
[21:26] <Mordax> star, this is your area of expertise
[21:26] <{sonja}JP> LOL
[21:26] * {sonja}JP knows that feeling
[21:27] <arella{C}> comments like.. this is the 90's woman don't Have to be subservient, why do you want to go and make dinner for him, or get him a drink, you work too, he should be waiting on you"
[21:27] <sim> after 5+ years, he's gonna make me an honest woman <cough>
[21:27] <ravn^Ron> raven; I would think the first step would be to find out if both parties want d/s in the relationship...to do this, discussion is mandatory...
[21:27] <ravn^Ron> yes arella..sadly this is true..I hear that kind of stuff alot
[21:27] <bellaD> yes i agree raven....
[21:27] <star{M}> *grins*
[21:27] <Mordax> agreed. We have communicated more in the last few months than we have in years.
[21:28] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Good for you Mordax, bet you she's more interesting than you may have thought she was..
[21:28] <bellaD> my ex wanted the service...but did not want any of the responsibility otherwise...
[21:28] <star{M}> well, it was hard at first to bring the subject up
[21:28] <ravn^Ron> raven: the next step would be to learn as much as you can, discuss those things with one another, and decide exactly what things you want to bring into your relationship..then do so slowly..giving yourselves time to adjust, grow, and learn one another..
[21:28] <bellaD> i think that is a common problem in trying to bring D/s in...
[21:28] <Mordax> However, overcoming the reluctance to use physical force is one of the hardest things to do so far.
[21:28] <ravn^Ron> how did you bring it up star?
[21:29] <star{M}> but once we realized this WAS our nature it seemed normal and natural and opened things up!
[21:29] <ravn^Ron> Ron: OHMYGOSH yes Mordax!!! I was taught, never hit a woman, never force a woman..you are polite, gentlemanly, and such. the physical (both for pleasure and discipline) was not easy to accept..because it is NOT supposed to be used..
[21:30] <LAR^AFK> I have a slightly different question. When Married, which comes first. Master or Husband?
[21:30] <{sonja}JP> i think a lot of Doms have that problem Mordax
[21:30] <Mordax> Striking a woman was verboten when I was growing up.
[21:30] <star{M}> well, i just kinda hid my face while telling him how a friend had taken me to *gasp* Gor and how i saw things there.
[21:30] <{sonja}JP> in answer to LAR^AFK's question
[21:30] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Master
[21:31] <sim> The man comes first.
[21:31] <ravn^Ron> raven: my response Lar is Master comes first..
[21:31] <min`> personally i think if the marriage is solid and built on trust love etc, there is a kind of hidden pattern of who is dominant etc and with that basis people should be able to widen activities within their marriage
[21:31] <ravn^Ron> but then again..I would think that in a marriage with a dominant male..the Master and Husband are the same people..the "man" would come first..
[21:31] <sim> I'm not alone :)
[21:31] <annyss}EZ> I agree with raven and sim
[21:31] <ravn^Ron> I agree with that min...I have often found myself serving without being told to..because it's my nature...and the man "took" because it was "his" nature..
[21:32] <sim> Ror comes first, with all that he is... all the facets
[21:32] <sim> His titles are less important that that which encompasses the whole of him
[21:33] <bellaD> like i described once..Draco is always dominant, i am always submissive to him...setting is unimportant
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> that is a good point bellaD
[21:33] <sim> For us, there are scenarios where I'm not doing something because he's Master, I'm doing it because he's Rorschach.
[21:33] <Mordax> In a 24/7 relationship Master and husband are one and the same, are they not?
[21:33] <arella{C}> I would think so Mordax..
[21:34] <ravn^Ron> Ron: I would hope so Mordax, though I've known people who have "online" masters and even poly relationships where the husband was not the master...
[21:34] <bellaD> sim..i always do things because Draco is Draco...whether he is 'big bad evil master dom' or just needs something from the store.
[21:34] <LAR^AFK> Mordax, not always. I am her Husband, her Master, her Daddy, her friend, her lover. Sometimes several at once, sometimes one role takes precedence over others
[21:34] <LAR^AFK> Lover gets real inconvenient during large family dinners after all
[21:34] <sim> I guess I meant that there are times where it isn't his dominance that moves me to action, it's that he's him, it's all the facets of who he is
[21:35] <ravn^Ron> raven: I always do for Ron because he is my master..that is how i see him, no matter what situation we might currently be in...
[21:35] <ravn^Ron> yes sim! That's what I was saying...you said it much better.. :)
[21:35] <sim> I don't always see Ror as Master.
[21:35] <ravn^Ron> my mind isn't working very well however.. LOL
[21:35] <ravn^Ron> Ron: LOL Lar
[21:35] <sim> I see him as lots of things.... but that's not always it
[21:35] <min`> true sim but him being the dominany one and you being submissive isn't it just second nature
[21:35] <sim> Not always
[21:36] <sim> Ugh, here goes
[21:36] <sim> Sometimes I see someone who needs me
[21:36] * ravn^Ron listens quietly to simi, very interested
[21:36] <bellaD> and on the flip side Sim..i always see Draco as Draco...regardless of Masterly behaviour...lol
[21:36] <sim> Someone who's human, with all the frailties that go with it
[21:36] <min`> see everything i do whether with M or not, i do with him in mind
[21:36] <sim> and sometimes THAT is MORE inspiring
[21:36] <ravn^Ron> ahhhhhhh..I see what you're saying simi :)
[21:36] <ravn^Ron> and..I agree simi :)
[21:37] <bellaD> yup..i agree simi
[21:37] <star{M}> i see Mordax as Master, Husband, Father, Friend, all rolled into one. i dont compartmentalize him into separate rolls really.
[21:37] <sim> I see myself as part of a big picture
[21:38] <sim> Eh, I am getting verbose (a common trait I have a knack for)
[21:38] <ravn^Ron> Ron: I see, in raven, that submissive part of her..and there is part of me that wants to reach out and care for and protect her, and make her do whatever I want. so I guess that's the other side of the same coin..
[21:38] <sim> Yes Ron
[21:39] <ravn^Ron> How does D/s affect a marriage? Does it make the relationship more difficult in any ways? Or does it make it easier?
[21:40] <sim> We only live together, but after 1/2 a decade... neither
[21:40] <arella{C}> I've never been married.. but.. I'd guess.. both
[21:40] <sim> Any LTR is work.
[21:40] <Mordax> Communication is easier.
[21:40] <sim> D/s or otherwise
[21:40] <star{M}> oh i think it is easier for me! i dont have to try and second guess Him anymore!
[21:40] <bellaD> i would think it would make it easier, as there would be less jockeying for position
[21:41] <ravn^Ron> raven: I agree simi, an LTR is alot of work..(LTR long term relationship_
[21:41] <ravn^Ron> )
[21:41] <star{M}> my the roles are more clearly defined
[21:41] <ravn^Ron> in some ways, I would find it easier..in other ways, I can see where it might be more difficult..
[21:41] * LAR^AFK would say there is no difference really. All couples usually define their roles ahead of time. It is the living 24/7 that kills a relationship
[21:41] <ravn^Ron> Ron: I would think it would be easier because it wouldn't be stepping on each others toes..there wouldn't be the constant jockeying for position of who gets to do what and such..
[21:42] <sim> I agree LAR, as long as the communication is in working order.
[21:42] <Mordax> If things are better (and in our case they are), difficult of easy does not really matter much...
[21:42] <ravn^Ron> raven: I agree Lar..
[21:42] <sim> It's doomed without it anyhow, no matter the category of relationship
[21:42] <star{M}> i respectfully dont agree, Lar, Sir.
[21:42] <ravn^Ron> very true simi, without communication no relationship will last..
[21:42] * LAR^AFK listens to star's reasoning
[21:43] <star{M}> Our roles were not so clear as they are now, at least in our situation. and i would have nothing less than a 100% committment of a 24/7 relationship :)
[21:45] <ravn^Ron> Ron: in marriages some people have difficulty being open enough to define the roles the way they are defined in d/s relationships..which is why they jockey for control in different areas. with the d/s being present, those definitions are defined by the dom, like raven takes care of budget on my order..because of that, no jockeying for "control"
[21:46] <ravn^Ron> Ron: in that area..the d/s being in the relationship makes things easier
[21:46] <LAR^AFK> OK, I understand that. But how is that any different than a vanilla marraige? Relationships grow, or they die. D/s or vanilla. Any pairing of people, irrespective of roles brings it's own complexities. IMHO, it is the people that make the difference. Not the personal wrinkle
[21:46] <star{M}> i love having someone to please. Mordax couldnt understand that at first but then once we walked in jade's garden together, he FINALLY understood how i felt!:)
[21:46] <ravn^Ron> raven: true Ron...but it might make it more difficult for some when things occur..for example, the sub gets sick...and the dom (as a person) wants to take care of the sub..he/she may have trouble melding that nurturing desire with their dominant role...
[21:47] <sim> Our roles are flexible enough to shift with the situation
[21:47] <star{M}> now i am happier than i have ever been... hate to keep bringing that up, but its a wonderful feeling!
[21:47] <ravn^Ron> raven: I understand that and agree with most of it Lar. the d/s differs because many people don't discuss these "roles' until they are living together and have no choice but to discuss it and thus comes arguments over who hadnles what..
[21:47] <{sonja}JP> i think i made this point last week, but i will make it again.....a relationship (any relationship) requires LOTS and LOTS of communication, whis is more likely to happen in a D/s relationship
[21:47] <sim> He's taken care of me, the kids, the house, even tried to cook dinner..
[21:47] <ravn^Ron> Ron: and sometimes they never discuss them at all and argue constantly..
[21:48] <sim> it has no bearing on his role....
[21:48] <ravn^Ron> raven: star..I agree with you. I love having someone to please also...
[21:48] <bellaD> exactly sim...i feel the same way.
[21:48] <sim> He's doing what needs to be done
[21:48] <ravn^Ron> raven: simi, I think the people must be flexible enough to shift with the situation as well..
[21:48] * star{M} smiles at raven
[21:48] <sim> and who couldn't admire that?
[21:48] <sim> That's domly as hell to me
[21:48] <LAR^AFK> That I would agree with. AND I would agree that the conventions of a formal D/s relationship provide us with channels that we otherwise might not have. Thus giving us a better chance at a successful and healthier relationship. (Assuming that it is taken advantage of)
[21:49] <ravn^Ron> raven: I'm not sure I could say more likely to happen in a d/s relationship because there are plenty of vanilla ones with great communication..I can say that I believe the communication in a d/s relationship has alot more emphasis ..and is expected more...
[21:49] <ravn^Ron> raven: I agree simi...to me, a dom taking care of his sub, is being dominant because caring for the sub is part of thier "role' (for lack of a better word)
[21:49] <ravn^Ron> I can agree with that Lar..
[21:50] <ravn^Ron> Ron nodding in agreement with what is being said now..
[21:50] <sim> I don't expect Ror's compassion to take a walk because he's the dom
[21:50] <bellaD> I view it as him doing as he wishes....therefor, it is domly....
[21:50] <sim> I view it as his commitment to keeping things together... it's a larger picture
[21:50] <ravn^Ron> Ron: IN a d/s relationship you don't have to put up wiht when you ask "what's wrong" and she answers' "oh nothing" ..
[21:51] <ravn^Ron> I agree simi...to me, it is part of the larger picture of the relationship..however, that's because my relationship is based on the love...
[21:51] <sim> As is mine.
[21:51] <star{M}> in my book, if Master wants to wash the dishes, he most certainly can!
[21:52] <{sonja}JP> there are lots of vanilla relationships with good communication, sure, but i think (and i have seen couselors back this thought up) that one of the major problems is lack of communication in marriage. sooooooooo many simply dont talk to each other - before, after, during...
[21:52] * ravn^Ron lvoes it when Ron does DOMestic chores
[21:52] * {sonja}JP is waaaaaaaaaaay behind
[21:52] * arella{C} giggles
[21:52] <arella{C}> no you don't.. at first you freaked out too raven!!
[21:52] <ravn^Ron> raven: true sonja they don't
[21:52] <sim> When I sent him for the water last night... perfect example. Yes, I asked him to bring me something.
[21:52] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Star have you been loaning pages out of your book to raven?
[21:52] * star{M} giggles
[21:52] <ravn^Ron> raven: true arella I did..but when he explained it to me, I could not only accept it, but agree with and enjoy it..
[21:53] * star{M} looks innocently and shyly grins
[21:53] <star{M}> not me, Sir! lol!
[21:53] <bellaD> i think that in D/s relationships, the communication is better for at least one reason...most doms will not put up with passive aggressive arguments
[21:53] <sim> He has the ability to decline. He didn't because I assume he wanted to help. I don't see that as an abandonment of his 'role'
[21:53] <bellaD> so....communication is more honest and productive
[21:54] <ravn^Ron> Ron looks at star, kind of worried about this innocent look...
[21:54] <star{M}> not once have i told Mordax "nothing" since we began this new phase of our relationship. i feel i can tell him anything now.
[21:54] <sim> I don't think my communication skills have changed all that much
[21:54] * star{M} just smiles
[21:54] <ravn^Ron> I agree simi...Ron often does things like that for me and I see it as his caring for me...but in no way do I view it as him submitting to me...it's caring for one's partner which is, in my opinion, a neccessity
[21:54] <sim> I agree, raven
[21:55] <Mordax> Beware of star's innocent look ,Ron. Be afraid. Be very afraid...
[21:55] <sim> It doesn't make him 'less'... rather, it makes him 'more', in my eyes
[21:55] <ravn^Ron> I've told Ron "nothing" a couple times..but it was because I didn't have the words to explain how I was feeling..he didn't accept the "nothing" and I eventually had to tell him I couldn't explain it right then..
[21:55] <ravn^Ron> Ron: LOLOL Mordax
[21:55] * ravn^Ron nods to simi..yupyup!
[21:55] * arella{C} giggles
[21:55] <arella{C}> he doesn't bealive innocent looks anyways
[21:55] * {sonja}JP NEVER gets away with "nothing" or "never mind"
[21:55] <arella{C}> but.. if you pout real good..
[21:56] <ravn^Ron> Ron: true arella I don't
[21:56] <ravn^Ron> Ron I can do an innocent look too, so I know it can be faked
[21:56] <sim> I don't think there's a lot of time for gameplaying.. p/a and 'nothings' waste precious time.
[21:56] * star{M} looks at Mordax... "What?"
[21:56] <sim> I don't want to look back on my life and see it as a series of 'nothing's wrongs'
[21:56] <bellaD> but, sim...you are different in that way...many have to unlearn years of bad behaviour...
[21:57] <sim> Perhaps.... but years of therapy help too.
[21:57] * Mordax swats star's behind.
[21:57] <star{M}> Yikes!
[21:57] <sim> I really wanted to enter this relationship as as whole a person as I could reasonably be.
[21:58] <sim> (I'm still working at that)
[21:58] * ravn^Ron nods..
[21:58] <sim> I wasn't looking for therapy, or someone to fix my life
[21:58] <ravn^Ron> Ron: This relationship is helping me be a more "whole' person..
[21:58] <sim> I wanted my already good life enhanced by him
[21:58] <sim> not dependent on him
[21:58] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Because I accept myself more and more each day...
[21:59] <ravn^Ron> that's the best thing to do simi...
[21:59] * sim really likes Ron
[21:59] <Mordax> Looking back, I can begin to see how star was looking for me to assume the dominant role and i fought it, thinking that it was too demeaning for her.
[21:59] <ravn^Ron> Do you think people have a bad view of a submissive who is married to her dominant? In that she is not "independent enough" or "beinga bused" or something like that...
[21:59] <arella{C}> yes
[21:59] <sim> Absolutely
[22:00] <sim> To the uninformed it can certainly appear that way
[22:00] <ravn^Ron> Ron: exactly Mordax. It was hard on me to take that role even though I wanted it because that's not the way I was raised..
[22:00] <bellaD> yes...and in entering this lifestyle, i did a constant 'abuse check' to see where i stood...
[22:00] <ravn^Ron> how does a submissive wife deal with that?
[22:00] <{sonja}JP> i dont think they would think "abused" if it is a good D/s relationship, but i can see where they would see that "she is not asserting herself enough"
[22:01] <ravn^Ron> Ron: I would say people could have a bad view thinking she is "Too dependent" ..but a good dominant will make sure that she has all those things in case something happens to him (or her as the case may be)..
[22:01] <Mordax> In, er, one of my other roles, I sometimes counsel couples in abusinve relationships. The dynamics are completly different.
[22:01] <bellaD> and many view that as abuse....they view saying yes sir as abuse...
[22:01] <star{M}> i love it now when he asks a task be completed before he returns home. it helps to motivate me to do those mundane chores or a rather difficult task i thought impossible to accomplish.
[22:01] <arella{C}> uhmmm.. sonja.. considering that quite alot of d/s relationships contain S/m..
[22:02] <arella{C}> anyone on the outside who just had a *little* bit of information.. would see it as abuse
[22:02] <{sonja}JP> oh - yeah.....never had any "visible" marks.....so didnt think about that...
[22:02] <ravn^Ron> raven: yes they are different Mordax..but to an outsider looking in it the differences are not visible..the sub obeys the dom, does things strictly to please the dom, is "subserviant" in many ways to the dom...this behavior (to those who don't know better) can be taken as the signs of an abused spouse..
[22:02] <kendallll> abuse is in the eye of the beholder?
[22:02] <sim> I completely agree, ravem
[22:02] <bellaD> there is large contingent that thinks that if the woman is not Dominant in the relationship, then she is abused...
[22:02] <sim> that is what I meant to say, when I said, "the uninformed"
[22:02] <arella{C}> yes bella!
[22:02] <ravn^Ron> that's another point arella...if soemone say comes to visit without warning and hears smacking sounds when they get to the door..they will automatically assume the dom is beating the sub..without knowing why or what it truly is..
[22:03] <ravn^Ron> could be kendallll
[22:03] <ravn^Ron> yes bellaD I agree
[22:03] * arella{C} nods
[22:03] <kendallll> <--just throwing me two pennies worth
[22:03] <Mordax> Look at rape vs. consensual sex. Same act, but the act of giving rather than taking is what turns it from one of the lowest acts to one of the highest.
[22:03] <ravn^Ron> go for it kendallll :)
[22:03] <star{M}> looking from the outside, it did seem abusive and demeaning. now i see it SO differenty...
[22:03] <sim> I guess I have no worries about appearing abused then, I have the biggest mouth in a 300 mile radius
[22:03] <arella{C}> it doesn't have to be visable marks sonja, like raven just said.. you visit someone's house.. you hear smacking and screaming (or what YOU think is screaming) what's your first thought?
[22:04] <LAR^AFK> I would disagree on Rape Vs. Sex. The difference is not just consent. Rape has never been about sex
[22:04] <{sonja}JP> true true
[22:05] <Mordax> Agreed, LAR. I was talking of the physical act, not the motives.
[22:05] <sim> I wear some pretty ugly marks at times.. it's a challenge to be mindful of their visibility
[22:05] <kendallll> in half the world women are submissive as a way of life
[22:05] <bellaD> it is not just the physical sounds...if the female is seen to do all the serving and clean up from dinner, it is viewed askance in many circles
[22:05] <ravn^Ron> Do you think that the conventional roles people are now "taught" as they grow up, can cause some trouble when a d/s couple becomes married? and suddenly they aren't only master and sub..but husband and wife?
[22:05] <ravn^Ron> true kendallll :)
[22:05] <arella{C}> hell.. just walk into big boy's with cuffs on your wrists .. everyone in the place is certain something is seriously wrong..
[22:05] <sim> I'll answer that after 01/01/01 raven.. I'll be married then :)
[22:06] <arella{C}> yes raven, I would think so
[22:06] <ravn^Ron> cool simi!! CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!
[22:06] <sim> Thanks :)
[22:07] <kendallll> as long as everyone is happy and at peace what else matters
[22:07] <ravn^Ron> I think that the roles people are taught can conflict when a d/s relationship becomes a marriage...possibly (but not for everyone) the ressurection of those old teachings will surface...specially for a female dominant and male submissive marriage..
[22:08] <arella{C}> in some cases, outside opinion can matter ALOT kendallll..
[22:08] <ravn^Ron> kendallll..supposedly nothing matters beyond personal happiness..but for many, that is not always true..
[22:08] <kendallll> that is because most of us look to society for acceptance
[22:09] <sim> Or we find societies who do accept us
[22:09] * mara{Zar} is trying hard to keep up....so many people.....:)
[22:09] <arella{C}> not only that kendallll, but considering alot of this stuff is technically illegal, you have to watch out for people who do not agree with your choice of lifestyle
[22:09] <kendallll> again nothing is absolute arella
[22:10] <ravn^Ron> raven: I don't neccessarily look to soceity for acceptance of myself..however, when a marriage occurs, what one was taught is proper for a marraige will crop up again..
[22:10] <kendallll> truth isnt absolute..what is right will be wrong tomorrow and vice versa
[22:10] <ravn^Ron> raven: I think it is important that those "views' be discussed before the marraige takes palce..that way, there are no funny surprises later on..
[22:10] <ravn^Ron> that is true kendall to a certain extent..
[22:10] <sim> Indeed it isn't, and it's changing all the time... however, there is much in some which remains unchanged.
[22:11] <star{M}> i would think it would be a little different being D/s first THEN getting married as opposed to the other way around, but i dont know....i would think it might be easier in some ways.
[22:12] <star{M}> i know my friend who introduced me to BDSM was reluctant as she has personally seen marriages fall apart because one embraced it and the other didnt. she was so happy it worked for us.
[22:13] * {sonja}JP is sooooooooooooooooo taken.................was? so taken?....LOL
[22:13] <kendallll> taken is good, sonja
[22:13] <ravn^Ron> I can see that star and it brings up another wrinkle...how do you handle it when that occurs? one is intersted, the other is not
[22:14] <bellaD> from my experience..for some, it is not that important, and they move forward without it...
[22:14] <bellaD> others find an outside dom to fill the gap...
[22:14] <bellaD> some cheat
[22:14] <ravn^Ron> How do you think marriage affect a female dominant/male sub relationship?
[22:15] <kendallll> sounds like an intriguing proposition
[22:15] * EZRiser nods at bella .. yes .. some do ..
[22:15] <ravn^Ron> yes those are all ways people have handled such an issue..and others, divorce because of it..
[22:15] <arella{C}> I would think it might make things a little harder, considering the male has been raised basically, that he should be the provider..
[22:16] <ravn^Ron> that makes sense arella...
[22:16] <arella{C}> confilicting emotions and all that
[22:16] <star{M}> oh okies :)
[22:16] <arella{C}> minus an i in there somewhere
[22:21] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Can a d/s relationship survive in a marriage relationship where it has been hammered that they are supposed to be equally powerful partners?
[22:22] <arella{C}> if the two people can communicate enough to get over those.. limits
[22:22] <ravn^Ron> raven: I think it can Ron..with communication, hard work, and love..
[22:23] <ravn^Ron> Ron takes notes: communication, hard work love..
[22:23] <star{M}> i certainly think it can... doing so nicely now! :)
[22:23] <sim> willingness
[22:24] <sim> mutual goals
[22:24] <star{M}> trust
[22:24] <ravn^Ron> Ron: trust..big one..
[22:24] * ravn^Ron nods nods nods
[22:24] <star{M}> yes, trust was the big one for me
[22:24] <sim> trust is the result of the aforementioned things though..
[22:25] <ravn^Ron> Would you think that acheiving the trust level a sub must have for their dominant, be easier for a couple who is already married because there is already a basis of trust there?
[22:25] <ravn^Ron> I agree simi
[22:25] <sim> It doesn't stand alone... it's cultivated through the above
[22:25] <star{M}> being able to trust Mordax with my sometimes fragile feelings was a hard one for me
[22:26] <ravn^Ron> Ron: I think that if marriage is already in place, there is a big basis of trust, perhaps it is easier that way, but I don't honestly know
[22:26] <star{M}> a basis of trust yes, to a degree, but it wasnt close to the trust level we have now and i think that is why what we have now is so special *softly smiles at Mordax*
[22:26] <{sonja}JP> not necessarily.....i agree with star on that
[22:27] <Mordax> Not sure if asking if it is easier or harder is really appropriate here. Nothing worth having is ever easy.
[22:27] <{sonja}JP> it is amazing at how little some people trust their own spouses, yet they married them anyways...
[22:27] <sim> That's scary to me, sonja
[22:28] <ravn^Ron> raven: trust is tricky..some people find it very easy to trust someone with thier physical well being..but not thier feelings...or vice versa...however, I do think if there is a relationship where trust is already present, then it does make it a bit easier to reach the level of trust a d/s relationship requires..
[22:28] <ravn^Ron> the groundwork is already there..
[22:28] <{sonja}JP> looking back, i never really trusted my husband, emotionally
[22:28] <ravn^Ron> raven: True Mordax..I'm just running out of "thread ideas" so am tossing out what comes to mind..<giggle>
[22:28] <ravn^Ron> raven: that is scary sonja...
[22:29] <star{M}> but what raven said seems logical...
[22:29] <{sonja}JP> and i see so many others who dont currently trust their husbands - least not in the way i see subs trusting their Doms
[22:29] <arella{C}> maybe we're looking at an evolution of better marriages?
[22:29] <sim> I don't mean to sound condescending, but that is sad to me
[22:29] <{sonja}JP> i think so, but i can see where it wouldnt work for so many
[22:29] <star{M}> you would think that a couple married had a high level of trust, and to a degree they do. But the trust that comes with a D/s relationship is higher still :)
[22:29] <ravn^Ron> could be arella..but I don't know..it's an interesting thought
[22:30] <ravn^Ron> Ron: I agree sonja..some women don't trust their husbands..if he's out late, they think he's with another woman or something...and it goes the other way too, from husband to wife..
[22:31] <ravn^Ron> raven: I think it's sad that there seems to be a lack of full trust in a vanilla relationship..and I wonder, is it truly a general lack of trust, or is it just that thoe relationships that lacked trust are the ones people discuss the most, so it's a "slanted" view of vanilla marriage?
[22:31] <star{M}> i agree, arella.. i wish i could tell all my friends "look what i found!! you can be SO much happier!!"
[22:31] <{sonja}JP> that happens....but i was really talking about emotional trust.....he never gave me acceptance on anything......so i didnt trust him with my true feelings
[22:31] <ravn^Ron> raven: when you think about it..it's always the "bad" or "hurtful" stuff that is considered "news" and thus discussed alot...you hardly hear anything about the good marriages..and they do exist..
[22:32] * arella{C} laughs.. your cute star
[22:32] <ravn^Ron> I can understand that sonja
[22:32] <Mordax> I have seen many, many vanilla marriages with outstanding communication.
[22:32] <sim> I don't think that D/s relationships, in my personal experience, had or have any higher degree of trust than my other relationships. My own personal experience, mind you.
[22:32] <star{M}> but you know they would think me ~weird~! lol!
[22:32] <{sonja}JP> personal info.....see this example.....
[22:33] <arella{C}> maybe it's just the people in them, have learned such a degree of comunication and trust, it doesn't matter what type of relationship, they know each other well enough that they don't Have to worry anymore.
[22:33] <Mordax> It's more about finding the level of interpersonal relationship that works for a specific couple.
[22:33] <ravn^Ron> I think that depends on the people involved simi...but I would love to believe that the level of trust in any marriage is the same as it is in d/s..
[22:33] <sim> Maybe I've just been exceptionally lucky.
[22:33] <sim> I'd like to think that it's more than that, maybe it isn't
[22:34] <star{M}> so true, sim, all we have is our own experiences and that is why we are here... to share those with others :)
[22:34] <ravn^Ron> Would you say a d/s marriage is "better" somehow than a vanilla one, in your experience? (general question to all, no specific "you" in mind)
[22:34] <ravn^Ron> I agree simi..
[22:34] <sim> For me, no.
[22:34] <sim> They are choices. Variances.
[22:34] <Mordax> It's a question of what works for you, not right or wrong.
[22:35] <min-afk> marriage is taken too lightly by most
[22:35] <sim> Absolutely agreed, sonja :)
[22:35] <sim> Oops, I meant that for star :)
[22:35] <min-afk> D/s is a deeper connection so i have to be partial and say D/s relationships are better, more fulfilling as each is more secure
[22:35] <star{M}> :)
[22:36] <ravn^Ron> I agree there min..it is taken very lightly by some people..
[22:36] <star{M}> i would say better, but personally, i think mine is :) its whats right for the couple that counts.
[22:37] <sim> A pleasure to see you all, and thanks for the insightful and wonderful topic
[22:37] <ravn^Ron> I'm not sure I could say that a d/s relationship is better or worse..I think it depends on the people involved..however, I think that because the roles, expectations and such are fairly clear from the beginning, it might be easier to be d/s than vanilla...
[22:37] <sim> and responses :)
[22:38] <{sonja}JP> and it certainly depends on whether the two(or more) people involved were Dom or sub or not :-)
[22:38] <ravn^Ron> yes sonja.. :)
[22:39] <ravn^Ron> Do you think that marriage has a power exchange in it, even if it is not "overtly" d/s?
[22:39] * Mordax wonders about that (or more) qualification....
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> some maybe but not all
[22:39] <star{M}> oh yes, Ron!
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> whatcha wonderin?
[22:39] <ravn^Ron> what are you wondering Mordax?
[22:40] <ravn^Ron> how so star?
[22:40] <star{M}> silly, we were 90% there!
[22:40] <star{M}> *oops, shouldnt have called Master silly!*
[22:41] <{sonja}JP> is that because he isnt silly or you just shouldnt have said it outloud?
[22:41] <{sonja}JP> LOL
[22:41] <min`> Do you think that marriage has a power exchange in it, even if it is not "overtly" d/s?, there is an exchange in any relationship, always give and take or it won't work right?
[22:41] <Soulhuntr> I think that all relationships have power issues. How could they not?
[22:41] <star{M}> either! *giggles*
[22:42] <Mordax> No relationship is ever 50/50 all of the time. One will always be giving more at any specific time.
[22:42] <{sonja}JP> i think the exchange is MUCH more fluid in a vanilla marriage though
[22:42] <star{M}> in our relationship, i was typical stay at home mom... had "mom" things to do and did everything i could to be perfect wife and mom.
[22:43] <min`> what was your motive to be perfect star{M}?
[22:43] <ravn^Ron> raven: I agree min..there is a give and take in any relationship..without it the relatiosnhip doesn't survive because it can't adapt to different situations...
[22:43] <star{M}> problem was, i was willing to give the power but he was reluctant to take it.
[22:44] <Soulhuntr> I don't knwo why a "give and take" of authority is needed to be successful or adaptive. Taking advice, or using someones talents, is not the same thing as giving them authority.
[22:44] <ravn^Ron> I can understand that star..
[22:44] <ravn^Ron> what do you mean by power issues Ken?
[22:45] <Soulhuntr> I mean I think every relationship has almost always got someone with authority, and someone without.
[22:45] <ravn^Ron> raven nods..true..
[22:45] <ravn^Ron> Ron: in a vanilla relationship there can be overlapping authority...in a d/s relationship, even if there is authority given to the sub, the final word still remains with the dominant not the sub..
[22:46] <ravn^Ron> sonja why do you say the exchange is more fluid in a vanilla marriage?
[22:46] <min`> yes Ken otherwise you have two dominants butting heads like bulls or two submissives who can't make up their mind
[22:46] <ravn^Ron> man that would be confusing min!! LOL
[22:46] <min`> lol no kidding
[22:46] <Soulhuntr> Well, even in those situations, someone has authority.
[22:47] <starpl{M}> and my motivation was to please my Hubby, make mom proud of me, and live teachings of religion i was raised in.
[22:47] <ravn^Ron> Ron: my exwife and I used to argue about the bills constantly because at that time I could not exert a final authority and neither could she...that doesn't happen wiht raven because the final say is mine..nothing to argue about there..
[22:47] <{sonja}JP> it can change all the time.......you do this now, i do this then.....it keeps going (or can keep going) back and forth - like Ron said, in a D/s r - the power ultimately rests with the D, not so in a vanilla r
[22:47] <min`> how Soulhuntr?
[22:48] <{sonja}JP> what Ron said - LOL
[22:48] <ravn^Ron> I see sonja...so the d/s relationship is more structured..(I prefer that btw, the constant give/take over stuff drove me batty in vanilla relationships)
[22:49] <{sonja}JP> you and me both sistah!!!
[22:49] <ravn^Ron> raven giggles
[22:49] <Soulhuntr> Some always has more 'clout' to toss around. Whether they chose to use it or not, or realizes it, is not reall y the issue :)
[22:49] <ravn^Ron> raven: I have to agree with Ken on this..in any situation or relationship there is always someone with more "clout"..that may not always be the same person in different situations..but it is there..
[22:50] <min`> i was in a dumbass realationship once where all we did was argue about everything, and i do mean everything
[22:50] <min`> just wasted years i say
[22:50] <{sonja}JP> ummmmmmmm uhuh - and in my marriage, that person was me......but i kept trying to give it back - it was WEIRD
[22:51] <Soulhuntr> you cannot give up authority. You can only pretend you dont have it.
[22:51] <ravn^Ron> How so Ken?
[22:51] <{sonja}JP> exactly
[22:51] <starpl{M}> Master would try to pass the clout to me often, like he didnt want it, but i didnt want it either. what happened was we'd argue about stupid things like where to go to dinner. that doesnt happen now. :)
[22:51] <Soulhuntr> IF he only has authority because (and when) youa llow it, then he has only the illusion of authority.
[22:52] <Soulhuntr> If you had to give it to him, he doesnt have it and never did.
[22:52] <{sonja}JP> put any two people together - one is going to be stronger than the other, even if only marginally - i was the stronger of the two (do ya get the hint that he was pretty submissive but DID NOT want to admit it????)
[22:53] <{sonja}JP> i HAD to "take over" and i hated every minute of it - but again - it was a serious lack of communication from the get go
[22:53] <Soulhuntr> PErsonally, I dont use authority in minor ways. For example, we often have confusion over where to go for dinner, I certainly dont have any interest is issuing such a decree by my authority - it isnt important enough to me to take that strong a stance on :)
[22:53] <ravn^Ron> then how does a sub give control of themselves to a dom by that thought Ken..if someone had to give it to them thus they don't have it and never did?
[22:54] <starpl{M}> yes sojna! i understand completely!
[22:54] <Soulhuntr> I never believed that submissives gave authority int he first place :) It isn't one of my views.
[22:54] * arella{C} looks confused..
[22:54] <arella{C}> then what exactly is consent?
[22:54] <Soulhuntr> When a submissive meets her dominant there is no question who has authority. her only choice is to continue or discoontinue being around him. Not whether or not she will be in his authority if she is around him.
[22:55] <{sonja}JP> i dont believe that either Ken......when i said "gave it back" i was speaking figuratively
[22:55] <{sonja}JP> can i copy that Ken?
[22:55] <Soulhuntr> Sure :)
[22:55] <ravn^Ron> AHhhhhhhhhhhhh...ok..I see what you are saying Ken...yes..I have to agree with that...
[22:55] <Soulhuntr> Consent then is the act of continuing to chose to be around someone you know controls you.
[22:55] <ravn^Ron> Ron: OK I get it ..I agree with that too..
[22:56] <ravn^Ron> raven thinks this goes back to the alpha/beta discussion that happened a long time ago...
[22:56] <{sonja}JP> exactly....though i think it can work the other way - to a degree - i think that is when it is best
[22:56] <starpl{M}> they dont give authority, they give their very lives to the Dom... trusting that the Dom will not betray that trust, Soulhuntr, Sir.
[22:56] <ravn^Ron> a sub will submit to a dominant on instinct..the consent comes in when the sub chooses to either act on those submissive feelings, or not..close?
[22:56] * {sonja}JP is making no sense atall tonight
[22:57] <Soulhuntr> ::Nods:: My own definitiosn here of course but dom/sub is only applicable in alpha/beta terms. All else is top/bottom.
[22:57] <min`> i don't have authority to give, i never had it really, i was labelled as an authoritative figure to my kids but that's because i bore them, the rest i just played by ear
[22:57] <ravn^Ron> I remember vehemently disagreeing with you then Ken...but, I guess I've grown, because I agree with you now...
[22:57] <Soulhuntr> yes raven, that is fairly close. She cannot chose how she wants to act, only if she will or not. In extreme cases it might not be possible to chose even to that degree.
[22:57] * Soulhuntr blushes :)
[22:58] <ravn^Ron> raven nods...yes Ken..I have to agree with that...
[22:58] * {sonja}JP knows that feeling as well
[22:58] <Soulhuntr> I know couples where the submissive could no more chose to discontinue her relationship than she could chose to no longer believe in her god.
[23:00] <ravn^Ron> I can see that Soul...
[23:00] <ravn^Ron> well..it's 11PM..anyone have any last comments?
[23:00] <{sonja}JP> i have tried to say "goodbye" to Master on any number of occasions........before i accepted Him as Master...
[23:00] <arella{C}> uhmmmmm.. thank you all for coming and drive safely?
[23:01] <starpl{M}> i just know that D/s in marriage works and has been a blessing in our lives :)
[23:01] <min`> it s 12 here and i really oughta drive to my bed
[23:01] <ravn^Ron> LOL gf
[23:01] * arella{C} giggles
[23:01] <ravn^Ron> I'm glad for you star :))
[23:01] <ravn^Ron> LOL min..sleep well :))
[23:01] <arella{C}> okay min.. sleep well .. :)
[23:02] <min`> night all
[23:02] <ravn^Ron> Thank you all for coming..I greatly enjoyed it!!
[23:02] <starpl{M}> i am glad i was able to offer my point of view this evening on a topic i felt comfortable with.
[21:04] <ravn^Ron> You must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave. Legal age being 18 or 21 depending on your location, if you are thought to be younger, you will be asked your age. If you are found to be younger, you will be kick/banned.
[21:04] <ravn^Ron> No trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night Trolling is the advertising of yourself, wants/needs/desires, and/or personal ads. If you troll, you will be kick/banned.
[21:04] <ravn^Ron> Harassment will not be tolerated either. If you harass another person, and an op is made aware of it, you will be asked to stop. If you continue, you will be kick/banned. This discussion is for enjoyment and information, not harassment.
[21:05] <ravn^Ron> Please try to stay on topic and discuss one thread at a time. If the discussion gets overly fast (or overly emotional, or someone requests a break), I will call a break. This is so everyone can take a few moments to relax, and get their thoughts in order before continuing.
[21:05] <ravn^Ron> If it erodes into a semantics argument, and those who are disagreeing can not agree to disagree, I will close the discussion for the night. We are here to discuss and learn from one anther, not fight with one another.
[21:05] <ravn^Ron> Please be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. Flaming is insulting the person who states an idea. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[21:05] <ravn^Ron> All statements are publishable on the web site,. I will change nicks if it is requested via email to webmaster@leathernroses.com. If I receive no requests, logs will be published in full on the web site and the lack of a request will be taken as consent to publish your statements.
[21:06] <ravn^Ron> I hope you enjoy tonight's discussion, the topic is D/s In Marriage
[21:06] <ravn^Ron> lets start with a definition of d/s that we can agree on..what is d/s to you?
[21:07] <ravn^Ron> Ron: It is a relationship with a dominant and a submissive
[21:07] <ravn^Ron> raven: the power exchange between a dominant and a submissive that is not just "in the bedroom"
[21:09] <EZRiser> I agree with you raven .. <s>
[21:09] <bellaD> yes..and i agree, D/s is a power based relationship that goes beyond sex to the everyday
[21:09] <ravn^Ron> ok..so since no one has disagreed..can we agree to use that definition for the purpose of this discussion?
[21:09] <sim> There is an allocation of power
[21:09] <sim> allocation too..
[21:10] * ravn^Ron smiles...
[21:10] * sim shuts up
[21:10] <ravn^Ron> cool!
[21:10] <star{M}> I agree :)
[21:10] <ravn^Ron> no simi..don't shut up
[21:10] <arella{C}> don't simi..
[21:10] <{sonja}JP> sure
[21:10] * ravn^Ron was smiling because people were talking
[21:10] * bellaD whispers to simi, ya know, if we all agree on a definition, Florida will freeze over...
[21:10] <sim> Well if we all agree, then I won't bring my definition to the channel
[21:10] <ravn^Ron> LOLOL Bella
[21:10] <sim> LMAO bella
[21:10] <ravn^Ron> give your definition simi..that's how discussions start..
[21:11] <sim> The allocation is defined (however and to what extent that may be)...
[21:11] <EZRiser> hmmm .. frozen orange juice .. what a unique concept ....
[21:11] <partygal> hmmm well one of the problems in my marriage was that he was a switch and expected me to and it really strained our relationship
[21:11] <sim> to the dominant.
[21:11] <ravn^Ron> I can see how it would partygal
[21:12] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Yikes partygal
[21:12] * ravn^Ron listens to simi..
[21:12] <sim> Dom maintains, for all intents and purposes, the lead.
[21:12] <sim> I think that may be generic enough to be applicable
[21:13] <sim> rather, a wide reaching application
[21:13] <ravn^Ron> Ron: agrees with simi
[21:13] <ravn^Ron> raven agrees to
[21:14] <sim> Bella, start up the space heater .. LOLOL
[21:14] <ravn^Ron> What comparison would you draw, if any, between a d/s relationship and the general consensus of marriages say 50 years ago?
[21:14] <sim> It's fixing' to get CHILLY in Florida
[21:14] <arella{C}> it isn't already??
[21:14] * sim scoffs. Nope arella :)
[21:14] * LAR^AFK notes that in a male Dom household the roles ARE similar
[21:15] <bellaD> lol sim!!
[21:15] * arella{C} looks at Ron the polar bear.. thought you said it was like this everywhere!
[21:15] <LAR^AFK> But the biggest difference appears to be overt consent
[21:15] <ravn^Ron> Ron: It is!! it *really* is
[21:15] <sim> I think there are many similarities, raven.
[21:15] <arella{C}> I would think, the roles are quite similar raven..
[21:15] <ravn^Ron> you wouldn't say that a wife basically consented to the roles of power in the marriage 50 years ago Lar?
[21:15] <bellaD> also, i think the difference is that rather than the 'wife' feeling it is her duty to serve and obey..it is her joy to
[21:16] <sim> I think the consent was expected then, whereas it isn't now.
[21:16] <ravn^Ron> I agree simi
[21:16] <partygal> yes
[21:16] <Soulhuntr> I think so Ron, it seems clear many of the women of the time were very happy with the roles.
[21:16] <sim> In fact, in this age, it's frowned upon
[21:16] <Soulhuntr> IT seems to me that they consented rather nicely :)
[21:16] <EZRiser> might be that's part of the reason 'obey' has been taken out of marriage vows nowadays ..
[21:16] <ravn^Ron> Ron: I agree with bela that 50 years ago it was expected and that since that is the way it was when women went into the relationship they were happy in it...
[21:17] <arella{C}> the male (Ussually) is in charge, the woman expected to be told what to do to please her husband, He took care of all of the control aspects of the relationship, paying the bills, deciding what vacation would be taken..
[21:17] <arella{C}> so on..
[21:17] <star{M}> 50 years ago? in some marriages it is similar today still :)
[21:17] <ravn^Ron> I agree as well sim...since it is generally frowned upon, how does a d/s couple handle that friction?
[21:17] <sim> In many ways I believe it was a lateral move in women's eyes of that era
[21:17] <ravn^Ron> true arella
[21:17] <sim> From dominant father to dominant husband
[21:17] <bellaD> also though, in the 50s, most women stayed home and took care of things...
[21:17] <ravn^Ron> true as well star...but it isn't as prevalent which is why I chose 50 yrs ago..:)
[21:17] <Soulhuntr> The largest difference would seem, to me, that in the 50's the male control was actually limited - he was expected to be in charge but to run his house in a fairly narrow and 'normal' fashion. In a BDSM house the control is much farther reaching. For example, imagine a 50's husband demanding golden showers :)
[21:18] <bellaD> women working full-time made that style of relationship less desirable for the woman
[21:18] <ravn^Ron> I can't imagine that Soul..you are right..
[21:18] <star{M}> true
[21:18] <{sonja}JP> i think it is a matter of concentration.....
[21:19] <ravn^Ron> yes bella it did
[21:19] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Yes I agree bella
[21:19] <{sonja}JP> the men never learned how to concentrate on "guiding" the wives
[21:19] <Mordax> The difference today is choices. Back then, the wife did not have much choice on whether to be a sub or not
[21:19] <{sonja}JP> and the women never learned how to concentrate on what they were doing
[21:19] <bellaD> Also, Ken, back then it was just what she did...in a D/s relationship, there is a different focus
[21:19] <ravn^Ron> true Mordax..
[21:19] <arella{C}> true Mordax, but she was raised to be such, and so she was, or she didn't get married..
[21:20] <arella{C}> or if she did, she picked the husband that she could control..
[21:20] <Mordax> The beauty of our relationship is that star gives control of her own free will nacho choice
[21:20] <sim> Remember the TV shows in the 50's and 60's where the issue of the wife working came up.. and it was horrific!
[21:20] <Patty50> the same with sex back then - the women were expected to have sex with their husbands whether they wanted to or not
[21:20] <ravn^Ron> I tend to think the women then were raised to be rather submissive to the man...
[21:20] <ravn^Ron> yes simi!
[21:21] <sim> Men were threatened by the concept of not being the sole provider... it was a slam to his manlihood
[21:21] <bellaD> Also, men were raised to believe they would take over their household in that fashion...they were also trained to be dominant
[21:21] <sim> Absolutely
[21:21] <Mordax> ...and *nobody* would want a slam to their manlihood...
[21:21] <Soulhuntr> For that matter, I don't think that there was an emphasis on submission. The women of the time were not expected to accept physical discipline, or to suffer in silence or to not show an attitude. Granted, that is not universal in BDSM, but many of the relationships of the time were volatile within the role lines.
[21:21] <ravn^Ron> Ron: I agree bellaD
[21:21] <{sonja}JP> actually, i don't think they were trained to be dominant.....
[21:21] <sim> Men were raised to be the sole providers of their households.. to be less was to be inferior
[21:21] <ravn^Ron> Ron: LOL Mordax
[21:22] <LAR^AFK> I would say in the 50's consent was hardly an issue. A female had little choice. She could not get separate credit, she could not support herself sufficiently. Without exceptional effort at least. But that is not part of the discussion. My point was, that the STRUCTURE is similar to a 50's style marriage. In the sense there IS a dominant partner who is acknowledged as such
[21:22] <sim> Oops, sorry LAR
[21:22] <bellaD> yes..that is true LAR
[21:22] <Soulhuntr> I agree sonja, I don't think the men were trained in it at all, any more than the women were trained to submit. It was a expected role - doing it WELL was not an issue.
[21:22] <{sonja}JP> i think they were trained to expect service because they were male, which to me is not a Dominant
[21:22] <ravn^Ron> raven: I think that depends on who raised the women Soul..my mother was raised to accept being "hit" by her husband and to suffer silently never give attitude and all that..always sweet and always "happy"..it didn't work
[21:22] <sim> I would agree, Ken
[21:22] <arella{C}> they weren't expected to accept physical discipline Soulhuntr?
[21:22] <Mordax> I disagree that women were not expected to accept physical discipline.
[21:22] <{sonja}JP> exactly....wish i had said that *giggle*
[21:22] <ravn^Ron> yes I agree Lar
[21:23] <bellaD> okay,, let me rephrase that...they weren't trained to, but society expected them to assume that role
[21:23] * arella{C} kinda thought the fact that it wasn't illegal to beat your wife if you thought she needed it kinda meant it was the other way
[21:23] <Soulhuntr> arella - no, not in the he way we know... a caning, a whipping, that short of thing.
[21:23] <Soulhuntr> arella - it was illegal :)
[21:23] <Soulhuntr> Assault did include women you know :)
[21:24] <ravn^Ron> actually Soul in some states there are still laws on the book that allow the husband to beat the wife..in Beuafort SC for example, it is legal on Sunday mornings to beat your wife on the steps of the church...no one does it, but the law is still on the books..
[21:24] <ravn^Ron> Ron: in the 50
[21:24] <min`> thinking back to the 50's advertising in magazines and all, the only time you saw a man in the kitchen he was sitting at the table
[21:24] <ravn^Ron> ROn: in the 50's if a man hit his wife..it was considered "their" business...no one else's..
[21:25] <ravn^Ron> raven: I heard someone use the term "Domestic discipline" to describe that once..but even they admitted that punching and such were outside that realm of discipline..
[21:25] <bellaD> i don't think physical discipline was expected...but, it was accepted
[21:25] <sim> My parents were rather modern, but I was born in '65. I don't have personal experience to draw from
[21:25] <ravn^Ron> yes bellaD
[21:25] <Mordax> Look at any episode of I Love Lucy. Ricky would spank Lucy if she disobeyed.
[21:25] <bellaD> my parents lived a D/s marriage...and in a 50's style..minus the donna reed dresses...
[21:25] <ravn^Ron> ok..so marriage now a days is very different from what it was..how does one bring D/s into an existing "vanilla" marriage?
[21:26] <ravn^Ron> I agree Mordax...in fact those episodes used to get me rather warm..,<giggle>
[21:26] <bellaD> it depends on the couple...
[21:26] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Very carefully
[21:26] <arella{C}> with lots of protestations from outside sources!?
[21:26] <sim> I have no idea, frankly... gonna watch at this point
[21:26] * min` shrugs cause i'm bringing marriage into a D/s relationship
[21:26] <bellaD> i tried with my ex...he made a wonderful example of domineering..but not dominant
[21:26] <sim> likewise, min
[21:26] <Mordax> star, this is your area of expertise
[21:26] <{sonja}JP> LOL
[21:26] * {sonja}JP knows that feeling
[21:27] <arella{C}> comments like.. this is the 90's woman don't Have to be subservient, why do you want to go and make dinner for him, or get him a drink, you work too, he should be waiting on you"
[21:27] <sim> after 5+ years, he's gonna make me an honest woman <cough>
[21:27] <ravn^Ron> raven; I would think the first step would be to find out if both parties want d/s in the relationship...to do this, discussion is mandatory...
[21:27] <ravn^Ron> yes arella..sadly this is true..I hear that kind of stuff alot
[21:27] <bellaD> yes i agree raven....
[21:27] <star{M}> *grins*
[21:27] <Mordax> agreed. We have communicated more in the last few months than we have in years.
[21:28] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Good for you Mordax, bet you she's more interesting than you may have thought she was..
[21:28] <bellaD> my ex wanted the service...but did not want any of the responsibility otherwise...
[21:28] <star{M}> well, it was hard at first to bring the subject up
[21:28] <ravn^Ron> raven: the next step would be to learn as much as you can, discuss those things with one another, and decide exactly what things you want to bring into your relationship..then do so slowly..giving yourselves time to adjust, grow, and learn one another..
[21:28] <bellaD> i think that is a common problem in trying to bring D/s in...
[21:28] <Mordax> However, overcoming the reluctance to use physical force is one of the hardest things to do so far.
[21:28] <ravn^Ron> how did you bring it up star?
[21:29] <star{M}> but once we realized this WAS our nature it seemed normal and natural and opened things up!
[21:29] <ravn^Ron> Ron: OHMYGOSH yes Mordax!!! I was taught, never hit a woman, never force a woman..you are polite, gentlemanly, and such. the physical (both for pleasure and discipline) was not easy to accept..because it is NOT supposed to be used..
[21:30] <LAR^AFK> I have a slightly different question. When Married, which comes first. Master or Husband?
[21:30] <{sonja}JP> i think a lot of Doms have that problem Mordax
[21:30] <Mordax> Striking a woman was verboten when I was growing up.
[21:30] <star{M}> well, i just kinda hid my face while telling him how a friend had taken me to *gasp* Gor and how i saw things there.
[21:30] <{sonja}JP> in answer to LAR^AFK's question
[21:30] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Master
[21:31] <sim> The man comes first.
[21:31] <ravn^Ron> raven: my response Lar is Master comes first..
[21:31] <min`> personally i think if the marriage is solid and built on trust love etc, there is a kind of hidden pattern of who is dominant etc and with that basis people should be able to widen activities within their marriage
[21:31] <ravn^Ron> but then again..I would think that in a marriage with a dominant male..the Master and Husband are the same people..the "man" would come first..
[21:31] <sim> I'm not alone :)
[21:31] <annyss}EZ> I agree with raven and sim
[21:31] <ravn^Ron> I agree with that min...I have often found myself serving without being told to..because it's my nature...and the man "took" because it was "his" nature..
[21:32] <sim> Ror comes first, with all that he is... all the facets
[21:32] <sim> His titles are less important that that which encompasses the whole of him
[21:33] <bellaD> like i described once..Draco is always dominant, i am always submissive to him...setting is unimportant
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> that is a good point bellaD
[21:33] <sim> For us, there are scenarios where I'm not doing something because he's Master, I'm doing it because he's Rorschach.
[21:33] <Mordax> In a 24/7 relationship Master and husband are one and the same, are they not?
[21:33] <arella{C}> I would think so Mordax..
[21:34] <ravn^Ron> Ron: I would hope so Mordax, though I've known people who have "online" masters and even poly relationships where the husband was not the master...
[21:34] <bellaD> sim..i always do things because Draco is Draco...whether he is 'big bad evil master dom' or just needs something from the store.
[21:34] <LAR^AFK> Mordax, not always. I am her Husband, her Master, her Daddy, her friend, her lover. Sometimes several at once, sometimes one role takes precedence over others
[21:34] <LAR^AFK> Lover gets real inconvenient during large family dinners after all
[21:34] <sim> I guess I meant that there are times where it isn't his dominance that moves me to action, it's that he's him, it's all the facets of who he is
[21:35] <ravn^Ron> raven: I always do for Ron because he is my master..that is how i see him, no matter what situation we might currently be in...
[21:35] <ravn^Ron> yes sim! That's what I was saying...you said it much better.. :)
[21:35] <sim> I don't always see Ror as Master.
[21:35] <ravn^Ron> my mind isn't working very well however.. LOL
[21:35] <ravn^Ron> Ron: LOL Lar
[21:35] <sim> I see him as lots of things.... but that's not always it
[21:35] <min`> true sim but him being the dominany one and you being submissive isn't it just second nature
[21:35] <sim> Not always
[21:36] <sim> Ugh, here goes
[21:36] <sim> Sometimes I see someone who needs me
[21:36] * ravn^Ron listens quietly to simi, very interested
[21:36] <bellaD> and on the flip side Sim..i always see Draco as Draco...regardless of Masterly behaviour...lol
[21:36] <sim> Someone who's human, with all the frailties that go with it
[21:36] <min`> see everything i do whether with M or not, i do with him in mind
[21:36] <sim> and sometimes THAT is MORE inspiring
[21:36] <ravn^Ron> ahhhhhhh..I see what you're saying simi :)
[21:36] <ravn^Ron> and..I agree simi :)
[21:37] <bellaD> yup..i agree simi
[21:37] <star{M}> i see Mordax as Master, Husband, Father, Friend, all rolled into one. i dont compartmentalize him into separate rolls really.
[21:37] <sim> I see myself as part of a big picture
[21:38] <sim> Eh, I am getting verbose (a common trait I have a knack for)
[21:38] <ravn^Ron> Ron: I see, in raven, that submissive part of her..and there is part of me that wants to reach out and care for and protect her, and make her do whatever I want. so I guess that's the other side of the same coin..
[21:38] <sim> Yes Ron
[21:39] <ravn^Ron> How does D/s affect a marriage? Does it make the relationship more difficult in any ways? Or does it make it easier?
[21:40] <sim> We only live together, but after 1/2 a decade... neither
[21:40] <arella{C}> I've never been married.. but.. I'd guess.. both
[21:40] <sim> Any LTR is work.
[21:40] <Mordax> Communication is easier.
[21:40] <sim> D/s or otherwise
[21:40] <star{M}> oh i think it is easier for me! i dont have to try and second guess Him anymore!
[21:40] <bellaD> i would think it would make it easier, as there would be less jockeying for position
[21:41] <ravn^Ron> raven: I agree simi, an LTR is alot of work..(LTR long term relationship_
[21:41] <ravn^Ron> )
[21:41] <star{M}> my the roles are more clearly defined
[21:41] <ravn^Ron> in some ways, I would find it easier..in other ways, I can see where it might be more difficult..
[21:41] * LAR^AFK would say there is no difference really. All couples usually define their roles ahead of time. It is the living 24/7 that kills a relationship
[21:41] <ravn^Ron> Ron: I would think it would be easier because it wouldn't be stepping on each others toes..there wouldn't be the constant jockeying for position of who gets to do what and such..
[21:42] <sim> I agree LAR, as long as the communication is in working order.
[21:42] <Mordax> If things are better (and in our case they are), difficult of easy does not really matter much...
[21:42] <ravn^Ron> raven: I agree Lar..
[21:42] <sim> It's doomed without it anyhow, no matter the category of relationship
[21:42] <star{M}> i respectfully dont agree, Lar, Sir.
[21:42] <ravn^Ron> very true simi, without communication no relationship will last..
[21:42] * LAR^AFK listens to star's reasoning
[21:43] <star{M}> Our roles were not so clear as they are now, at least in our situation. and i would have nothing less than a 100% committment of a 24/7 relationship :)
[21:45] <ravn^Ron> Ron: in marriages some people have difficulty being open enough to define the roles the way they are defined in d/s relationships..which is why they jockey for control in different areas. with the d/s being present, those definitions are defined by the dom, like raven takes care of budget on my order..because of that, no jockeying for "control"
[21:46] <ravn^Ron> Ron: in that area..the d/s being in the relationship makes things easier
[21:46] <LAR^AFK> OK, I understand that. But how is that any different than a vanilla marraige? Relationships grow, or they die. D/s or vanilla. Any pairing of people, irrespective of roles brings it's own complexities. IMHO, it is the people that make the difference. Not the personal wrinkle
[21:46] <star{M}> i love having someone to please. Mordax couldnt understand that at first but then once we walked in jade's garden together, he FINALLY understood how i felt!:)
[21:46] <ravn^Ron> raven: true Ron...but it might make it more difficult for some when things occur..for example, the sub gets sick...and the dom (as a person) wants to take care of the sub..he/she may have trouble melding that nurturing desire with their dominant role...
[21:47] <sim> Our roles are flexible enough to shift with the situation
[21:47] <star{M}> now i am happier than i have ever been... hate to keep bringing that up, but its a wonderful feeling!
[21:47] <ravn^Ron> raven: I understand that and agree with most of it Lar. the d/s differs because many people don't discuss these "roles' until they are living together and have no choice but to discuss it and thus comes arguments over who hadnles what..
[21:47] <{sonja}JP> i think i made this point last week, but i will make it again.....a relationship (any relationship) requires LOTS and LOTS of communication, whis is more likely to happen in a D/s relationship
[21:47] <sim> He's taken care of me, the kids, the house, even tried to cook dinner..
[21:47] <ravn^Ron> Ron: and sometimes they never discuss them at all and argue constantly..
[21:48] <sim> it has no bearing on his role....
[21:48] <ravn^Ron> raven: star..I agree with you. I love having someone to please also...
[21:48] <bellaD> exactly sim...i feel the same way.
[21:48] <sim> He's doing what needs to be done
[21:48] <ravn^Ron> raven: simi, I think the people must be flexible enough to shift with the situation as well..
[21:48] * star{M} smiles at raven
[21:48] <sim> and who couldn't admire that?
[21:48] <sim> That's domly as hell to me
[21:48] <LAR^AFK> That I would agree with. AND I would agree that the conventions of a formal D/s relationship provide us with channels that we otherwise might not have. Thus giving us a better chance at a successful and healthier relationship. (Assuming that it is taken advantage of)
[21:49] <ravn^Ron> raven: I'm not sure I could say more likely to happen in a d/s relationship because there are plenty of vanilla ones with great communication..I can say that I believe the communication in a d/s relationship has alot more emphasis ..and is expected more...
[21:49] <ravn^Ron> raven: I agree simi...to me, a dom taking care of his sub, is being dominant because caring for the sub is part of thier "role' (for lack of a better word)
[21:49] <ravn^Ron> I can agree with that Lar..
[21:50] <ravn^Ron> Ron nodding in agreement with what is being said now..
[21:50] <sim> I don't expect Ror's compassion to take a walk because he's the dom
[21:50] <bellaD> I view it as him doing as he wishes....therefor, it is domly....
[21:50] <sim> I view it as his commitment to keeping things together... it's a larger picture
[21:50] <ravn^Ron> Ron: IN a d/s relationship you don't have to put up wiht when you ask "what's wrong" and she answers' "oh nothing" ..
[21:51] <ravn^Ron> I agree simi...to me, it is part of the larger picture of the relationship..however, that's because my relationship is based on the love...
[21:51] <sim> As is mine.
[21:51] <star{M}> in my book, if Master wants to wash the dishes, he most certainly can!
[21:52] <{sonja}JP> there are lots of vanilla relationships with good communication, sure, but i think (and i have seen couselors back this thought up) that one of the major problems is lack of communication in marriage. sooooooooo many simply dont talk to each other - before, after, during...
[21:52] * ravn^Ron lvoes it when Ron does DOMestic chores
[21:52] * {sonja}JP is waaaaaaaaaaay behind
[21:52] * arella{C} giggles
[21:52] <arella{C}> no you don't.. at first you freaked out too raven!!
[21:52] <ravn^Ron> raven: true sonja they don't
[21:52] <sim> When I sent him for the water last night... perfect example. Yes, I asked him to bring me something.
[21:52] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Star have you been loaning pages out of your book to raven?
[21:52] * star{M} giggles
[21:52] <ravn^Ron> raven: true arella I did..but when he explained it to me, I could not only accept it, but agree with and enjoy it..
[21:53] * star{M} looks innocently and shyly grins
[21:53] <star{M}> not me, Sir! lol!
[21:53] <bellaD> i think that in D/s relationships, the communication is better for at least one reason...most doms will not put up with passive aggressive arguments
[21:53] <sim> He has the ability to decline. He didn't because I assume he wanted to help. I don't see that as an abandonment of his 'role'
[21:53] <bellaD> so....communication is more honest and productive
[21:54] <ravn^Ron> Ron looks at star, kind of worried about this innocent look...
[21:54] <star{M}> not once have i told Mordax "nothing" since we began this new phase of our relationship. i feel i can tell him anything now.
[21:54] <sim> I don't think my communication skills have changed all that much
[21:54] * star{M} just smiles
[21:54] <ravn^Ron> I agree simi...Ron often does things like that for me and I see it as his caring for me...but in no way do I view it as him submitting to me...it's caring for one's partner which is, in my opinion, a neccessity
[21:54] <sim> I agree, raven
[21:55] <Mordax> Beware of star's innocent look ,Ron. Be afraid. Be very afraid...
[21:55] <sim> It doesn't make him 'less'... rather, it makes him 'more', in my eyes
[21:55] <ravn^Ron> I've told Ron "nothing" a couple times..but it was because I didn't have the words to explain how I was feeling..he didn't accept the "nothing" and I eventually had to tell him I couldn't explain it right then..
[21:55] <ravn^Ron> Ron: LOLOL Mordax
[21:55] * ravn^Ron nods to simi..yupyup!
[21:55] * arella{C} giggles
[21:55] <arella{C}> he doesn't bealive innocent looks anyways
[21:55] * {sonja}JP NEVER gets away with "nothing" or "never mind"
[21:55] <arella{C}> but.. if you pout real good..
[21:56] <ravn^Ron> Ron: true arella I don't
[21:56] <ravn^Ron> Ron I can do an innocent look too, so I know it can be faked
[21:56] <sim> I don't think there's a lot of time for gameplaying.. p/a and 'nothings' waste precious time.
[21:56] * star{M} looks at Mordax... "What?"
[21:56] <sim> I don't want to look back on my life and see it as a series of 'nothing's wrongs'
[21:56] <bellaD> but, sim...you are different in that way...many have to unlearn years of bad behaviour...
[21:57] <sim> Perhaps.... but years of therapy help too.
[21:57] * Mordax swats star's behind.
[21:57] <star{M}> Yikes!
[21:57] <sim> I really wanted to enter this relationship as as whole a person as I could reasonably be.
[21:58] <sim> (I'm still working at that)
[21:58] * ravn^Ron nods..
[21:58] <sim> I wasn't looking for therapy, or someone to fix my life
[21:58] <ravn^Ron> Ron: This relationship is helping me be a more "whole' person..
[21:58] <sim> I wanted my already good life enhanced by him
[21:58] <sim> not dependent on him
[21:58] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Because I accept myself more and more each day...
[21:59] <ravn^Ron> that's the best thing to do simi...
[21:59] * sim really likes Ron
[21:59] <Mordax> Looking back, I can begin to see how star was looking for me to assume the dominant role and i fought it, thinking that it was too demeaning for her.
[21:59] <ravn^Ron> Do you think people have a bad view of a submissive who is married to her dominant? In that she is not "independent enough" or "beinga bused" or something like that...
[21:59] <arella{C}> yes
[21:59] <sim> Absolutely
[22:00] <sim> To the uninformed it can certainly appear that way
[22:00] <ravn^Ron> Ron: exactly Mordax. It was hard on me to take that role even though I wanted it because that's not the way I was raised..
[22:00] <bellaD> yes...and in entering this lifestyle, i did a constant 'abuse check' to see where i stood...
[22:00] <ravn^Ron> how does a submissive wife deal with that?
[22:00] <{sonja}JP> i dont think they would think "abused" if it is a good D/s relationship, but i can see where they would see that "she is not asserting herself enough"
[22:01] <ravn^Ron> Ron: I would say people could have a bad view thinking she is "Too dependent" ..but a good dominant will make sure that she has all those things in case something happens to him (or her as the case may be)..
[22:01] <Mordax> In, er, one of my other roles, I sometimes counsel couples in abusinve relationships. The dynamics are completly different.
[22:01] <bellaD> and many view that as abuse....they view saying yes sir as abuse...
[22:01] <star{M}> i love it now when he asks a task be completed before he returns home. it helps to motivate me to do those mundane chores or a rather difficult task i thought impossible to accomplish.
[22:01] <arella{C}> uhmmm.. sonja.. considering that quite alot of d/s relationships contain S/m..
[22:02] <arella{C}> anyone on the outside who just had a *little* bit of information.. would see it as abuse
[22:02] <{sonja}JP> oh - yeah.....never had any "visible" marks.....so didnt think about that...
[22:02] <ravn^Ron> raven: yes they are different Mordax..but to an outsider looking in it the differences are not visible..the sub obeys the dom, does things strictly to please the dom, is "subserviant" in many ways to the dom...this behavior (to those who don't know better) can be taken as the signs of an abused spouse..
[22:02] <kendallll> abuse is in the eye of the beholder?
[22:02] <sim> I completely agree, ravem
[22:02] <bellaD> there is large contingent that thinks that if the woman is not Dominant in the relationship, then she is abused...
[22:02] <sim> that is what I meant to say, when I said, "the uninformed"
[22:02] <arella{C}> yes bella!
[22:02] <ravn^Ron> that's another point arella...if soemone say comes to visit without warning and hears smacking sounds when they get to the door..they will automatically assume the dom is beating the sub..without knowing why or what it truly is..
[22:03] <ravn^Ron> could be kendallll
[22:03] <ravn^Ron> yes bellaD I agree
[22:03] * arella{C} nods
[22:03] <kendallll> <--just throwing me two pennies worth
[22:03] <Mordax> Look at rape vs. consensual sex. Same act, but the act of giving rather than taking is what turns it from one of the lowest acts to one of the highest.
[22:03] <ravn^Ron> go for it kendallll :)
[22:03] <star{M}> looking from the outside, it did seem abusive and demeaning. now i see it SO differenty...
[22:03] <sim> I guess I have no worries about appearing abused then, I have the biggest mouth in a 300 mile radius
[22:03] <arella{C}> it doesn't have to be visable marks sonja, like raven just said.. you visit someone's house.. you hear smacking and screaming (or what YOU think is screaming) what's your first thought?
[22:04] <LAR^AFK> I would disagree on Rape Vs. Sex. The difference is not just consent. Rape has never been about sex
[22:04] <{sonja}JP> true true
[22:05] <Mordax> Agreed, LAR. I was talking of the physical act, not the motives.
[22:05] <sim> I wear some pretty ugly marks at times.. it's a challenge to be mindful of their visibility
[22:05] <kendallll> in half the world women are submissive as a way of life
[22:05] <bellaD> it is not just the physical sounds...if the female is seen to do all the serving and clean up from dinner, it is viewed askance in many circles
[22:05] <ravn^Ron> Do you think that the conventional roles people are now "taught" as they grow up, can cause some trouble when a d/s couple becomes married? and suddenly they aren't only master and sub..but husband and wife?
[22:05] <ravn^Ron> true kendallll :)
[22:05] <arella{C}> hell.. just walk into big boy's with cuffs on your wrists .. everyone in the place is certain something is seriously wrong..
[22:05] <sim> I'll answer that after 01/01/01 raven.. I'll be married then :)
[22:06] <arella{C}> yes raven, I would think so
[22:06] <ravn^Ron> cool simi!! CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!
[22:06] <sim> Thanks :)
[22:07] <kendallll> as long as everyone is happy and at peace what else matters
[22:07] <ravn^Ron> I think that the roles people are taught can conflict when a d/s relationship becomes a marriage...possibly (but not for everyone) the ressurection of those old teachings will surface...specially for a female dominant and male submissive marriage..
[22:08] <arella{C}> in some cases, outside opinion can matter ALOT kendallll..
[22:08] <ravn^Ron> kendallll..supposedly nothing matters beyond personal happiness..but for many, that is not always true..
[22:08] <kendallll> that is because most of us look to society for acceptance
[22:09] <sim> Or we find societies who do accept us
[22:09] * mara{Zar} is trying hard to keep up....so many people.....:)
[22:09] <arella{C}> not only that kendallll, but considering alot of this stuff is technically illegal, you have to watch out for people who do not agree with your choice of lifestyle
[22:09] <kendallll> again nothing is absolute arella
[22:10] <ravn^Ron> raven: I don't neccessarily look to soceity for acceptance of myself..however, when a marriage occurs, what one was taught is proper for a marraige will crop up again..
[22:10] <kendallll> truth isnt absolute..what is right will be wrong tomorrow and vice versa
[22:10] <ravn^Ron> raven: I think it is important that those "views' be discussed before the marraige takes palce..that way, there are no funny surprises later on..
[22:10] <ravn^Ron> that is true kendall to a certain extent..
[22:10] <sim> Indeed it isn't, and it's changing all the time... however, there is much in some which remains unchanged.
[22:11] <star{M}> i would think it would be a little different being D/s first THEN getting married as opposed to the other way around, but i dont know....i would think it might be easier in some ways.
[22:12] <star{M}> i know my friend who introduced me to BDSM was reluctant as she has personally seen marriages fall apart because one embraced it and the other didnt. she was so happy it worked for us.
[22:13] * {sonja}JP is sooooooooooooooooo taken.................was? so taken?....LOL
[22:13] <kendallll> taken is good, sonja
[22:13] <ravn^Ron> I can see that star and it brings up another wrinkle...how do you handle it when that occurs? one is intersted, the other is not
[22:14] <bellaD> from my experience..for some, it is not that important, and they move forward without it...
[22:14] <bellaD> others find an outside dom to fill the gap...
[22:14] <bellaD> some cheat
[22:14] <ravn^Ron> How do you think marriage affect a female dominant/male sub relationship?
[22:15] <kendallll> sounds like an intriguing proposition
[22:15] * EZRiser nods at bella .. yes .. some do ..
[22:15] <ravn^Ron> yes those are all ways people have handled such an issue..and others, divorce because of it..
[22:15] <arella{C}> I would think it might make things a little harder, considering the male has been raised basically, that he should be the provider..
[22:16] <ravn^Ron> that makes sense arella...
[22:16] <arella{C}> confilicting emotions and all that
[22:16] <star{M}> oh okies :)
[22:16] <arella{C}> minus an i in there somewhere
[22:21] <ravn^Ron> Ron: Can a d/s relationship survive in a marriage relationship where it has been hammered that they are supposed to be equally powerful partners?
[22:22] <arella{C}> if the two people can communicate enough to get over those.. limits
[22:22] <ravn^Ron> raven: I think it can Ron..with communication, hard work, and love..
[22:23] <ravn^Ron> Ron takes notes: communication, hard work love..
[22:23] <star{M}> i certainly think it can... doing so nicely now! :)
[22:23] <sim> willingness
[22:24] <sim> mutual goals
[22:24] <star{M}> trust
[22:24] <ravn^Ron> Ron: trust..big one..
[22:24] * ravn^Ron nods nods nods
[22:24] <star{M}> yes, trust was the big one for me
[22:24] <sim> trust is the result of the aforementioned things though..
[22:25] <ravn^Ron> Would you think that acheiving the trust level a sub must have for their dominant, be easier for a couple who is already married because there is already a basis of trust there?
[22:25] <ravn^Ron> I agree simi
[22:25] <sim> It doesn't stand alone... it's cultivated through the above
[22:25] <star{M}> being able to trust Mordax with my sometimes fragile feelings was a hard one for me
[22:26] <ravn^Ron> Ron: I think that if marriage is already in place, there is a big basis of trust, perhaps it is easier that way, but I don't honestly know
[22:26] <star{M}> a basis of trust yes, to a degree, but it wasnt close to the trust level we have now and i think that is why what we have now is so special *softly smiles at Mordax*
[22:26] <{sonja}JP> not necessarily.....i agree with star on that
[22:27] <Mordax> Not sure if asking if it is easier or harder is really appropriate here. Nothing worth having is ever easy.
[22:27] <{sonja}JP> it is amazing at how little some people trust their own spouses, yet they married them anyways...
[22:27] <sim> That's scary to me, sonja
[22:28] <ravn^Ron> raven: trust is tricky..some people find it very easy to trust someone with thier physical well being..but not thier feelings...or vice versa...however, I do think if there is a relationship where trust is already present, then it does make it a bit easier to reach the level of trust a d/s relationship requires..
[22:28] <ravn^Ron> the groundwork is already there..
[22:28] <{sonja}JP> looking back, i never really trusted my husband, emotionally
[22:28] <ravn^Ron> raven: True Mordax..I'm just running out of "thread ideas" so am tossing out what comes to mind..<giggle>
[22:28] <ravn^Ron> raven: that is scary sonja...
[22:29] <star{M}> but what raven said seems logical...
[22:29] <{sonja}JP> and i see so many others who dont currently trust their husbands - least not in the way i see subs trusting their Doms
[22:29] <arella{C}> maybe we're looking at an evolution of better marriages?
[22:29] <sim> I don't mean to sound condescending, but that is sad to me
[22:29] <{sonja}JP> i think so, but i can see where it wouldnt work for so many
[22:29] <star{M}> you would think that a couple married had a high level of trust, and to a degree they do. But the trust that comes with a D/s relationship is higher still :)
[22:29] <ravn^Ron> could be arella..but I don't know..it's an interesting thought
[22:30] <ravn^Ron> Ron: I agree sonja..some women don't trust their husbands..if he's out late, they think he's with another woman or something...and it goes the other way too, from husband to wife..
[22:31] <ravn^Ron> raven: I think it's sad that there seems to be a lack of full trust in a vanilla relationship..and I wonder, is it truly a general lack of trust, or is it just that thoe relationships that lacked trust are the ones people discuss the most, so it's a "slanted" view of vanilla marriage?
[22:31] <star{M}> i agree, arella.. i wish i could tell all my friends "look what i found!! you can be SO much happier!!"
[22:31] <{sonja}JP> that happens....but i was really talking about emotional trust.....he never gave me acceptance on anything......so i didnt trust him with my true feelings
[22:31] <ravn^Ron> raven: when you think about it..it's always the "bad" or "hurtful" stuff that is considered "news" and thus discussed alot...you hardly hear anything about the good marriages..and they do exist..
[22:32] * arella{C} laughs.. your cute star
[22:32] <ravn^Ron> I can understand that sonja
[22:32] <Mordax> I have seen many, many vanilla marriages with outstanding communication.
[22:32] <sim> I don't think that D/s relationships, in my personal experience, had or have any higher degree of trust than my other relationships. My own personal experience, mind you.
[22:32] <star{M}> but you know they would think me ~weird~! lol!
[22:32] <{sonja}JP> personal info.....see this example.....
[22:33] <arella{C}> maybe it's just the people in them, have learned such a degree of comunication and trust, it doesn't matter what type of relationship, they know each other well enough that they don't Have to worry anymore.
[22:33] <Mordax> It's more about finding the level of interpersonal relationship that works for a specific couple.
[22:33] <ravn^Ron> I think that depends on the people involved simi...but I would love to believe that the level of trust in any marriage is the same as it is in d/s..
[22:33] <sim> Maybe I've just been exceptionally lucky.
[22:33] <sim> I'd like to think that it's more than that, maybe it isn't
[22:34] <star{M}> so true, sim, all we have is our own experiences and that is why we are here... to share those with others :)
[22:34] <ravn^Ron> Would you say a d/s marriage is "better" somehow than a vanilla one, in your experience? (general question to all, no specific "you" in mind)
[22:34] <ravn^Ron> I agree simi..
[22:34] <sim> For me, no.
[22:34] <sim> They are choices. Variances.
[22:34] <Mordax> It's a question of what works for you, not right or wrong.
[22:35] <min-afk> marriage is taken too lightly by most
[22:35] <sim> Absolutely agreed, sonja :)
[22:35] <sim> Oops, I meant that for star :)
[22:35] <min-afk> D/s is a deeper connection so i have to be partial and say D/s relationships are better, more fulfilling as each is more secure
[22:35] <star{M}> :)
[22:36] <ravn^Ron> I agree there min..it is taken very lightly by some people..
[22:36] <star{M}> i would say better, but personally, i think mine is :) its whats right for the couple that counts.
[22:37] <sim> A pleasure to see you all, and thanks for the insightful and wonderful topic
[22:37] <ravn^Ron> I'm not sure I could say that a d/s relationship is better or worse..I think it depends on the people involved..however, I think that because the roles, expectations and such are fairly clear from the beginning, it might be easier to be d/s than vanilla...
[22:37] <sim> and responses :)
[22:38] <{sonja}JP> and it certainly depends on whether the two(or more) people involved were Dom or sub or not :-)
[22:38] <ravn^Ron> yes sonja.. :)
[22:39] <ravn^Ron> Do you think that marriage has a power exchange in it, even if it is not "overtly" d/s?
[22:39] * Mordax wonders about that (or more) qualification....
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> some maybe but not all
[22:39] <star{M}> oh yes, Ron!
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> whatcha wonderin?
[22:39] <ravn^Ron> what are you wondering Mordax?
[22:40] <ravn^Ron> how so star?
[22:40] <star{M}> silly, we were 90% there!
[22:40] <star{M}> *oops, shouldnt have called Master silly!*
[22:41] <{sonja}JP> is that because he isnt silly or you just shouldnt have said it outloud?
[22:41] <{sonja}JP> LOL
[22:41] <min`> Do you think that marriage has a power exchange in it, even if it is not "overtly" d/s?, there is an exchange in any relationship, always give and take or it won't work right?
[22:41] <Soulhuntr> I think that all relationships have power issues. How could they not?
[22:41] <star{M}> either! *giggles*
[22:42] <Mordax> No relationship is ever 50/50 all of the time. One will always be giving more at any specific time.
[22:42] <{sonja}JP> i think the exchange is MUCH more fluid in a vanilla marriage though
[22:42] <star{M}> in our relationship, i was typical stay at home mom... had "mom" things to do and did everything i could to be perfect wife and mom.
[22:43] <min`> what was your motive to be perfect star{M}?
[22:43] <ravn^Ron> raven: I agree min..there is a give and take in any relationship..without it the relatiosnhip doesn't survive because it can't adapt to different situations...
[22:43] <star{M}> problem was, i was willing to give the power but he was reluctant to take it.
[22:44] <Soulhuntr> I don't knwo why a "give and take" of authority is needed to be successful or adaptive. Taking advice, or using someones talents, is not the same thing as giving them authority.
[22:44] <ravn^Ron> I can understand that star..
[22:44] <ravn^Ron> what do you mean by power issues Ken?
[22:45] <Soulhuntr> I mean I think every relationship has almost always got someone with authority, and someone without.
[22:45] <ravn^Ron> raven nods..true..
[22:45] <ravn^Ron> Ron: in a vanilla relationship there can be overlapping authority...in a d/s relationship, even if there is authority given to the sub, the final word still remains with the dominant not the sub..
[22:46] <ravn^Ron> sonja why do you say the exchange is more fluid in a vanilla marriage?
[22:46] <min`> yes Ken otherwise you have two dominants butting heads like bulls or two submissives who can't make up their mind
[22:46] <ravn^Ron> man that would be confusing min!! LOL
[22:46] <min`> lol no kidding
[22:46] <Soulhuntr> Well, even in those situations, someone has authority.
[22:47] <starpl{M}> and my motivation was to please my Hubby, make mom proud of me, and live teachings of religion i was raised in.
[22:47] <ravn^Ron> Ron: my exwife and I used to argue about the bills constantly because at that time I could not exert a final authority and neither could she...that doesn't happen wiht raven because the final say is mine..nothing to argue about there..
[22:47] <{sonja}JP> it can change all the time.......you do this now, i do this then.....it keeps going (or can keep going) back and forth - like Ron said, in a D/s r - the power ultimately rests with the D, not so in a vanilla r
[22:47] <min`> how Soulhuntr?
[22:48] <{sonja}JP> what Ron said - LOL
[22:48] <ravn^Ron> I see sonja...so the d/s relationship is more structured..(I prefer that btw, the constant give/take over stuff drove me batty in vanilla relationships)
[22:49] <{sonja}JP> you and me both sistah!!!
[22:49] <ravn^Ron> raven giggles
[22:49] <Soulhuntr> Some always has more 'clout' to toss around. Whether they chose to use it or not, or realizes it, is not reall y the issue :)
[22:49] <ravn^Ron> raven: I have to agree with Ken on this..in any situation or relationship there is always someone with more "clout"..that may not always be the same person in different situations..but it is there..
[22:50] <min`> i was in a dumbass realationship once where all we did was argue about everything, and i do mean everything
[22:50] <min`> just wasted years i say
[22:50] <{sonja}JP> ummmmmmmm uhuh - and in my marriage, that person was me......but i kept trying to give it back - it was WEIRD
[22:51] <Soulhuntr> you cannot give up authority. You can only pretend you dont have it.
[22:51] <ravn^Ron> How so Ken?
[22:51] <{sonja}JP> exactly
[22:51] <starpl{M}> Master would try to pass the clout to me often, like he didnt want it, but i didnt want it either. what happened was we'd argue about stupid things like where to go to dinner. that doesnt happen now. :)
[22:51] <Soulhuntr> IF he only has authority because (and when) youa llow it, then he has only the illusion of authority.
[22:52] <Soulhuntr> If you had to give it to him, he doesnt have it and never did.
[22:52] <{sonja}JP> put any two people together - one is going to be stronger than the other, even if only marginally - i was the stronger of the two (do ya get the hint that he was pretty submissive but DID NOT want to admit it????)
[22:53] <{sonja}JP> i HAD to "take over" and i hated every minute of it - but again - it was a serious lack of communication from the get go
[22:53] <Soulhuntr> PErsonally, I dont use authority in minor ways. For example, we often have confusion over where to go for dinner, I certainly dont have any interest is issuing such a decree by my authority - it isnt important enough to me to take that strong a stance on :)
[22:53] <ravn^Ron> then how does a sub give control of themselves to a dom by that thought Ken..if someone had to give it to them thus they don't have it and never did?
[22:54] <starpl{M}> yes sojna! i understand completely!
[22:54] <Soulhuntr> I never believed that submissives gave authority int he first place :) It isn't one of my views.
[22:54] * arella{C} looks confused..
[22:54] <arella{C}> then what exactly is consent?
[22:54] <Soulhuntr> When a submissive meets her dominant there is no question who has authority. her only choice is to continue or discoontinue being around him. Not whether or not she will be in his authority if she is around him.
[22:55] <{sonja}JP> i dont believe that either Ken......when i said "gave it back" i was speaking figuratively
[22:55] <{sonja}JP> can i copy that Ken?
[22:55] <Soulhuntr> Sure :)
[22:55] <ravn^Ron> AHhhhhhhhhhhhh...ok..I see what you are saying Ken...yes..I have to agree with that...
[22:55] <Soulhuntr> Consent then is the act of continuing to chose to be around someone you know controls you.
[22:55] <ravn^Ron> Ron: OK I get it ..I agree with that too..
[22:56] <ravn^Ron> raven thinks this goes back to the alpha/beta discussion that happened a long time ago...
[22:56] <{sonja}JP> exactly....though i think it can work the other way - to a degree - i think that is when it is best
[22:56] <starpl{M}> they dont give authority, they give their very lives to the Dom... trusting that the Dom will not betray that trust, Soulhuntr, Sir.
[22:56] <ravn^Ron> a sub will submit to a dominant on instinct..the consent comes in when the sub chooses to either act on those submissive feelings, or not..close?
[22:56] * {sonja}JP is making no sense atall tonight
[22:57] <Soulhuntr> ::Nods:: My own definitiosn here of course but dom/sub is only applicable in alpha/beta terms. All else is top/bottom.
[22:57] <min`> i don't have authority to give, i never had it really, i was labelled as an authoritative figure to my kids but that's because i bore them, the rest i just played by ear
[22:57] <ravn^Ron> I remember vehemently disagreeing with you then Ken...but, I guess I've grown, because I agree with you now...
[22:57] <Soulhuntr> yes raven, that is fairly close. She cannot chose how she wants to act, only if she will or not. In extreme cases it might not be possible to chose even to that degree.
[22:57] * Soulhuntr blushes :)
[22:58] <ravn^Ron> raven nods...yes Ken..I have to agree with that...
[22:58] * {sonja}JP knows that feeling as well
[22:58] <Soulhuntr> I know couples where the submissive could no more chose to discontinue her relationship than she could chose to no longer believe in her god.
[23:00] <ravn^Ron> I can see that Soul...
[23:00] <ravn^Ron> well..it's 11PM..anyone have any last comments?
[23:00] <{sonja}JP> i have tried to say "goodbye" to Master on any number of occasions........before i accepted Him as Master...
[23:00] <arella{C}> uhmmmmm.. thank you all for coming and drive safely?
[23:01] <starpl{M}> i just know that D/s in marriage works and has been a blessing in our lives :)
[23:01] <min`> it s 12 here and i really oughta drive to my bed
[23:01] <ravn^Ron> LOL gf
[23:01] * arella{C} giggles
[23:01] <ravn^Ron> I'm glad for you star :))
[23:01] <ravn^Ron> LOL min..sleep well :))
[23:01] <arella{C}> okay min.. sleep well .. :)
[23:02] <min`> night all
[23:02] <ravn^Ron> Thank you all for coming..I greatly enjoyed it!!
[23:02] <starpl{M}> i am glad i was able to offer my point of view this evening on a topic i felt comfortable with.
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