Presents:
BDSM Discussion 33
Types
Of Relationships In BDSM
All Comments Posted Here With Permission Of The Participants
[21:17] *
raven{Az} says Hello and welcome to #Leather_and_Roses' weekly discussions
on BDSM topics. I hope you enjoy it. The following rules apply for all
present.
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[21:19] <raven{Az}> I hope you enjoy tonight's discussion, the topic is Types Of Relationships In BDSM
[21:19] <raven{Az}> when you think about relationships in BDSM, what types are there?
[21:20] <{sonja}JP> ummmmmmmmmm
[21:20] <arella{C}> Master/slave, Dominant/submissive, Top/bottom
[21:20] <star{M}> real ones, cyber ones
[21:21] <EZRiser> 24/7 .. bedroom only .. or the casual play party style .. which aint really a realationship .. but .. .. to name a few
[21:21] <raven{Az}> mentorships, play partners
[21:21] * raven{Az} smiles..looks like we got them all..
[21:21] <raven{Az}> what makes something a relationship?
[21:21] <{sonja}JP> i would combine stars with all the others...
[21:22] <raven{Az}> I was counting stars :)
[21:22] <{sonja}JP> i meant each of the others and then subcategory - real time or cyber...
[21:22] <raven{Az}> yes..
[21:25] <raven{Az}> allright, we can take them one at a time...what is a master/slave relationship?
[21:25] <EZRiser> do we want to narrow this wide field down a bit .. for discussion and breivity's sake
[21:25] <raven{Az}> how so EZ?
[21:26] <Mordax> Master/slave relationship is one in which the slave gives up some measure of control to the Master, is it not?
[21:26] <EZRiser> well .. arella's, mine ..star's and yours .. they could all warrant a night on their own
[21:26] <{sonja}JP> some? - i would say all...
[21:26] <raven{Az}> I was thinking just talking in general of what kinds of relationships can/do occur in the broad spectrum of bdsm..I've covered master/slave by itself..and dom/sub by itself before..
[21:26] * star{M} was thinking all too
[21:27] <raven{Az}> yes EZ..I have been doing that..the focus I was hoping to get tonight, was just general understanding of the different possibilities out there..so someone dosen't think they can only have a certain type in order to be involved in BDSM
[21:27] <raven{Az}> I agree with sonja..in an m/s relationship the slaves gives total control to the master...most frequently without safewords or the slave setting limits on the master..
[21:27] <EZRiser> Mordax .. I would think that in a Master/slave ..the slave gives up more than just a bit of control .. its pretty total
[21:28] <raven{Az}> Would you consider an m/s relationship to then be more extreme than some of the other relationships?
[21:28] <arella{C}> yes.. I would think so
[21:28] <{sonja}JP> depends on whether you are talking mentally or physically
[21:28] <Mordax> I stand corrected. I'm still fuzzy on the definitions.
[21:29] <raven{Az}> lets start with mentally..
[21:29] <EZRiser> why so sonja .. wouldnt it be total .. and be both
[21:29] <{sonja}JP> i would say that it is more extreme, mentally
[21:30] <{sonja}JP> there are some SM aspects that are more physically "extreme" that are necessarily a part of a M/s relationship - mine for example
[21:30] <{sonja}JP> oooops i meant are NOT necessarily
[21:30] <raven{Az}> well..I was using the word extreme as in a scale..lets see a play partner arrangement (get together once in a while for a scene) as being not extreme...a tpe m/s relationship, extreme..
[21:31] <raven{Az}> I have to agree that the m/s relationship is extreme in the mental aspects, but may not be as extreme physically..
[21:31] <raven{Az}> physical stuff seems to depend heavily on those involved and what they like or do not like..
[21:31] <{sonja}JP> then, yes, i would agree that a M/s relationship is at the top of that scale
[21:32] <raven{Az}> what makes the m/s relationship extreme mentally?
[21:32] <arella{C}> the level of.. give and take?
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> Master asked me to give Him a definition of COMPLETE one time.......to show that i was prepared to give Him complete control.......
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> it was kind of eye-opening to have to define it that way
[21:33] * EZRiser nods in agreement with arella .. the total control given ..
[21:33] <arella{C}> it has to be accepted to EZ..
[21:36] <raven{Az}> how so sonja?
[21:36] <EZRiser> in a M/s relationship .. there is no other way .. tho I still have a hard time seeing the difference between that and a Dom/sub arrangement .. to me, there seems to be little difference
[21:36] <raven{Az}> I agree arella..
[21:36] <{sonja}JP> exactly arella, Taking complete control of someone is as mentally challenging as Giving someone complete control - sometimes harder even (i think)
[21:36] <arella{C}> I think, in most peoples concept of Dom/sub, there is more.. leeway..
[21:37] <raven{Az}> the differences are rather subtle EZ..from what I've seen/heard they focus mostly on the slave does not tell the master "you can't do this to me" via limits, and usually there are no safewords...
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> EZ, one of the biggest difs i see is the absence of a safeword.......when a "slave" gives up her last bit of control
[21:37] <arella{C}> safe words (no lets not get into this discussion)
[21:37] <raven{Az}> LOL arella..not tonight..
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> ummm - good idea
[21:37] * arella{C} giggles.. love it when we're all on the same page
[21:37] <arella{C}> I was just gonna finish with mostly what you two had said..
[21:37] <arella{C}> and.. just stopped after I read
[21:37] * raven{Az} giggles..
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> lol
[21:37] <raven{Az}> sure cuts down on sore fingers.. :)
[21:37] <EZRiser> would it not be that it would still be the Masters responsibility to see to it that his sub/slave is ...
[21:37] <star{M}> from the little i know, i see the difference between D/s and M/s is a matter of degrees
[21:38] * arella{C} nods
[21:38] <{sonja}JP> right - and often one flows into the other quite naturally
[21:38] <EZRiser> kept from harm .. regardless of safewords or the absence of such
[21:38] <arella{C}> yes, I think so star
[21:38] <arella{C}> no matter what relationship your in, or what you want to call it, both people have to be aware of safty EZ..
[21:39] <{sonja}JP> ah - yes EZ, which brings up my (very personal belief) that there is a higher degree of trust in a M/s relationship
[21:39] <EZRiser> then a safe word .. in an ideal world .. shouldnt be necessary .. its all about testing limits .. growing .. together ..
[21:39] <raven{Az}> I agree with star..it's a matter of degrees..
[21:40] <raven{Az}> many d/s relationship, eventually become m/s ones between the people involved..
[21:40] <arella{C}> yes EZ..
[21:40] <star{M}> Master would be or should be more responsible for slave's safety as she is trusting him more
[21:40] <raven{Az}> the trust grows as time goes on in the relationship and eventually the sub gives total control to the dominant..including dropping the safeword..
[21:40] <raven{Az}> however..there are such thigns as m/s relationships that start that way from the first day...
[21:40] <{sonja}JP> exactly raven - i know i struggled with "labeling" our relationship as M/s though we were living it......just cause of the verbiage
[21:40] <raven{Az}> yes sonja..and i can understand that.. :)
[21:41] <raven{Az}> yes EZ!! That's why I prefer not to use a safeword.. :)
[21:41] <raven{Az}> In the case of a d/s relationship which grows into an m/s one...do you see a problem with calling the relatinship m/s?
[21:42] <{sonja}JP> we did/ i did/ i can see where it is a problem for others....
[21:42] <Sammie> did I miss the discussion?
[21:42] <arella{C}> nope, happening right now
[21:43] <{sonja}JP> then again - i have a problem listening to myself BEG for a flogging - the words are sometimes a sticking point
[21:43] <raven{Az}> [21:41] <raven{Az}> In the case of a d/s relationship which grows into an m/s one...do you see a problem with calling the relatinship m/s?
[21:43] <raven{Az}> that's the question on the table.. :)
[21:43] <Sammie> good topic
[21:43] <raven{Az}> Do you think it is fair or correct of someone to say that because the relationship started out d/s, it could not possibly be a "real" m/s relationship?
[21:44] <raven{Az}> the topic is types of relationsips Sammie..and m/s came up first..so I'm taking them one at a time..and talking in general about them..
[21:44] <{sonja}JP> NO!, but obviously i am biased....what would be the reasoning behind that?
[21:44] <Eric__> I'm not certain that I distinguish to that level in relationships.... for a few reasons
[21:44] <raven{Az}> why Eric?
[21:45] <Eric__> well, for one thing, what I consider m/s may not be the same as what you do...
[21:45] <raven{Az}> you'd be surprised sonja..some say that such mobility/changeability in a relationship somehow cheapens those who start their relationship at the m/s level..personally I think that is the wrong way to view anything..
[21:45] <raven{Az}> ok..what do you consider m/s Eric?
[21:45] <Eric__> and for another it's really somewhat unimportant to me what the relationship is labeled
[21:46] <raven{Az}> I can understand how a label is unimportant..however, having some terms for things does make it alot easier to understand and discuss bdsm
[21:46] <Sammie> I believe my relationship to be both, but I would like to hear other's definitions on ms
[21:46] <star{M}> only if the term "slave" is derogatory to the sub... i still find the term offensive and cant see myself as that right now even though the definitions fit
[21:46] <EZRiser> I agree with that completely .. labels are to let someone else 'know' what is going on .. whats between the two involved is what works for them
[21:46] <arella{C}> Why is the term offensive?
[21:46] <raven{Az}> I define m/s as the slave giving total control to the master..a tpe
[21:46] <raven{Az}> I understand that star..
[21:47] <raven{Az}> some people make the words sound like insults..
[21:47] <Eric__> of course it does raven.... but I don't break it down all that much, I tend to lump it all as d/s. I don't see a need to break it down that much, and prefer not to
[21:47] <Sammie> well, that's me, I belong completely to my Master
[21:47] <star{M}> just how i was raised, arella....
[21:47] <arella{C}> okay star..
[21:47] <raven{Az}> for example: slave = doormat...brat = wannabe...bottom=player
[21:47] <raven{Az}> see?
[21:47] <star{M}> perhaps in time :)
[21:48] * arella{C} smiles.. yes raven.. I see..
[21:48] <raven{Az}> I can understand that Eric..but we're breaking it down because there are many who do so and many people who wish to learn for themselves what the different relatinship options are available tot hem..
[21:48] <Sammie> but sm is about pleasure in giving/receiving pain
[21:48] <arella{C}> not sm
[21:48] <arella{C}> Master/slave
[21:48] <raven{Az}> yes Sammie but we are talking about relationships..not s/m play..
[21:48] <arella{C}> m/s
[21:48] <Sammie> oh, ok
[21:49] * raven{Az} wants to say something..
[21:49] <Eric__> <grins> well then .... m/s denotes a level of control extending into all areas of the life of the bottom. It does not necessarily denote micro-management
[21:49] <raven{Az}> please, do not feel that you are "less of a submissive" or "less of a dominant" for the discussion here tonight. that is not my intent at all. the intent is simply to discuss different things, learn, and enjoy the conversation...
[21:49] <arella{C}> some people do consider slave = micro managment, however, it does not have to, it would all *I* think depend on what the submissive/slave Needs
[21:50] <raven{Az}> I, personally, do not believe that one must be either slave, sub, master, dominant, top, or a water buffalo to be involved in BDSM.
[21:50] <raven{Az}> That's how I define it Eric..:))
[21:50] <{sonja}JP> lol, raven :-)
[21:50] * arella{C} giggles
[21:50] <raven{Az}> I agree arella :)
[21:50] * raven{Az} smiles.
[21:50] <Sammie> I don't see what is wrong with being a slave to one's Master
[21:50] <arella{C}> some people require/want/NEED micro managment, it drives other people bonkers
[21:50] <Sammie> I don't go around telling others I am a slave
[21:50] <raven{Az}> star, so you know, I could never apply the word slave to myself 2 yers ago...for the same reason as you...I have learned differently..:)
[21:51] <raven{Az}> drive me nuts arella!
[21:51] <{sonja}JP> i just thought of something - certainly an African-American in a D/s relationship Might have a serious problem with the label - quite understandably...
[21:51] <arella{C}> this is true sonja
[21:51] <arella{C}> but, the lable doesn't refer to .. that type of slavery..
[21:51] <{sonja}JP> something i really hadnt thought about before
[21:51] <{sonja}JP> true arella, but the WORD
[21:51] <raven{Az}> well Sammie, personally, I don't understand completely why others ahve to put down a person when they say they are slave to their master, but no one else..I think it's great if someone reaches the level of submission they feel most comfortable and happy with..be it slavery or something else..
[21:51] <arella{C}> I do agree sonja..
[21:52] <raven{Az}> yes sonja! I hadn't even thought of that..and it would make alot of sense..
[21:52] <Sammie> agreed
[21:52] <star{M}> oh dont get me wrong, please! i was just answering a question. i wasnt offended at all!
[21:52] <raven{Az}> it would be very hard to assimilate our definition of slavery with what the african americans went through years ago..
[21:52] <star{M}> but thank you for your concern :)
[21:52] <{sonja}JP> i also had a very hard time calling myself a slave (heck!, still do on occasion)
[21:52] <arella{C}> the thing is, some people might look at someone, who is perfectly happy in a M/s relationship, and say.. Oh look.. she's/he's a doormat, they do every thing their Master says.. don't even argue.. tthey may just have reached a point, where that is what they are comfortable with.
[21:53] <raven{Az}> I know star..:)))) was just letting everyone know..with a discussion like this one, it is very easy to think someone is coming down on others...(that was also for the benefit of those who read the log later on the web site.)
[21:53] <Sammie> I never thought of "slavery" that way either, cuz my Master is very loving and caring
[21:53] <raven{Az}> yes arella...
[21:53] <EZRiser> I would think ,,, that in reaching that level of submission, regardless of ones ethnic background, they would be proud to admit that they are slaave to a certain person
[21:53] <raven{Az}> depends on the upbringing I think EZ...honestly...
[21:54] <star{M}> oh ok, raven{Az} :) gotcha!
[21:54] * raven{Az} winks to star..
[21:54] <{sonja}JP> truly.....i had a hard time calling myself "submissive", and then to go to SLAVE????
[21:54] <EZRiser> but being as I dont come from a 'diverse' background .. I couldnt speak for them
[21:54] <raven{Az}> I can understand that sonja! it sort of short circuits the brain..
[21:54] <raven{Az}> now...if one can't submit to the level of a slave, and is happy that way, does that mean they are less involved in bdsm?
[21:55] <arella{C}> yes, but if you spent your whole childhood, being taught, how wrong slavery IS, how evil the ones who made them slaves were.. can you even imagine being able to admit that you desire to be slave?
[21:55] <arella{C}> EZ
[21:55] <Sammie> I didn't have a prob with that, but have a hard time referring to Master respectfully as Sir all the time
[21:55] <{sonja}JP> yanno Sammie - i think that is a point i also see in a lot of M/s relationships - just how "sweet" their master is
[21:55] <raven{Az}> it is very hard to admit arella..
[21:56] <Sammie> what do you mean Sonja??
[21:56] <star{M}> exactly, arella{C}!
[21:56] <EZRiser> they are two completely different worlds .. there is no connection tween the two at all
[21:56] <{sonja}JP> i am a bit behind (too much rum)....i was looking at your note earlier about how loving your master was
[21:56] <arella{C}> Yes EZ.. but.. it's all mind set.. isn't everything?
[21:56] <Sammie> right :)
[21:56] <{sonja}JP> i see that with a lot of M/s relationships - the high level of caring from Master to slave...
[21:57] <Sammie> yes, that is how it is. Not in any sense abusive
[21:57] <raven{Az}> The level of caring is something that many people have a problem with...do yoou think there should be less caring in an m/s relationship or more?
[21:57] <star{M}> however i have become so comfortable calling my Hubby "Master" that i nearly blurted it out in front of the kids last night! So worried i will slip in public!
[21:57] <arella{C}> Whatever the people in the relationship NEED raven.. :)
[21:57] <{sonja}JP> more more more......(IMHO)
[21:57] <raven{Az}> LOL star now that's comfy!! that's great!!
[21:57] <Sammie> me too Star!!!! lol
[21:57] <{sonja}JP> good point arella
[21:57] <raven{Az}> yes arella :)
[21:57] <arella{C}> no matter what relationship it is.. it's going to have to be defined by the participants..
[21:58] * arella{C} feels all smart tonight
[21:58] <raven{Az}> I agree sonja..I think the m/s relationship, by it's nature of being a bit more "extreme" (via guidelines I set before) would require more care on the dom's part..
[21:58] <raven{Az}> and the sub's for that matter..
[21:58] <raven{Az}> so..lets go to d/s relationships..what *is* a d/s relationship anyway?
[21:58] <{sonja}JP> i think it is also where the level of trust comes in
[21:58] <raven{Az}> yes sonja.. :)
[21:59] <raven{Az}> ok.hold off on that question..sorry, didn't realize people were still discussing the caring in m/s..go ahead
[21:59] <raven{Az}> sorry all..got a bit lost..
[21:59] * EZRiser laughs slightly ...mine calls me that on the phone, star .. she works in a hospital icu ward .. she has to be careful .. but she does slip on occasion
[22:00] * star{M} smiles
[22:01] <{sonja}JP> i call Master .... Master, Sir or hun - alll the time.......well, except in bed - occsly, i go back to "Jase"
[22:01] <Sammie> what's the diff with D/s and MS then? I thought they were the same
[22:01] <arella{C}> D/s where it isn't just in the bedroom, but not quite.. tpe?
[22:02] <Sammie> My kids hear me call Master "Sir" and think nothing of it now
[22:02] <raven{Az}> d/s ...is a relationship between a dominant and a submissive..in which the sub can (and usually does But NOT always) set limits on the dominant..
[22:02] <raven{Az}> yes arella..it is outside the bedroom, but not a complete tpe
[22:02] <Sammie> I wouldn't have defined it that way
[22:03] <raven{Az}> how do you define it Sammie?
[22:03] <star{M}> raven, in the past month and a half, there has been more caring, more concern, compassion, understanding, and trust than there was in the prior 18 years of marriage. i can not deny there is more caring in a D/s or M/s relationship.
[22:03] <Sammie> because as a sub I wouldn't be the one to set limits
[22:03] <raven{Az}> CONGRATS star!!
[22:03] <raven{Az}> you define submission the way I do..:)
[22:04] <Sammie> :) I have my opinions which Master will listen to but he decides everything
[22:04] <Sammie> and he sets the limits
[22:04] <Sammie> I don't even use a safe word
[22:04] <{sonja}JP> that is what i would call a M/s relationship sammie....
[22:04] <raven{Az}> I'd say you have an M/s relationship Sammie :)
[22:04] <Sammie> oh? but our relationship is also outside the bedroom
[22:05] <raven{Az}> an M/s relationship is definitely outside the bedroom ..:)
[22:05] <Sammie> so D/s is with limits? is that the diff?
[22:05] <Sammie> sorry, I missed the beginning of this discussion
[22:05] <raven{Az}> it's part of the difference yes Sammie..and as well a d/s relationship can move into an m/s one as the trust between those involved grows..
[22:05] <raven{Az}> no problem Sammie..I don't mind answering the quetsions..and I'm sure no one else minds either.. :)
[22:06] <Sammie> thanx
[22:06] * raven{Az} smiles..welcome
[22:06] <Sammie> is D/s then primarily in the bedroom?
[22:07] <raven{Az}> no Sammie...not by my definition..
[22:07] <arella{C}> no..
[22:07] <Sammie> one being dominant and the other submissive?
[22:07] <raven{Az}> by my definition..d/s is outside the bedroom..but there are limits on the dom's control which are set by the sub..
[22:07] <Sammie> sheesh, then I don't see a big diff
[22:07] <raven{Az}> there isn't a big difference Sammie..
[22:07] <raven{Az}> it's rather subtle
[22:07] <arella{C}> not a real big difference.. more.. tiny things..
[22:07] <Sammie> ok, the limits part
[22:08] <Sammie> discipline and punishment happen in both I would guess?
[22:08] <raven{Az}> in many d/s relationships the submissive has a safeword..thru which they can stop a scene at any time..slaves don't ahve that..
[22:08] <raven{Az}> yes.. :)
[22:09] <raven{Az}> what do you consider to be a d/s relationship Sammie?
[22:10] <Sammie> well, I thought it was the same as SM just different words
[22:10] <Sammie> my Master calls me sub and slave
[22:10] * star{M} cant remember safeword... havent needed to use it, but i feel that is the sign of an observant and excellent Master
[22:10] <raven{Az}> ok :)
[22:11] <raven{Az}> in your opinion, what components are neccssary for a relationship to be a d/s one?
[22:11] <{sonja}JP> i remember mine - i also remember the day i told Master i would never ever use it...
[22:12] <Mordax> Trust is probably the most important element in any relationship, not just D/s
[22:12] <raven{Az}> yes Mordax Sir! :))
[22:12] <arella{C}> yeppers
[22:12] <Sammie> well, I'd say a major component would have to be one letting go and the other taking control
[22:12] * star{M} beams and smiles at Master
[22:12] <raven{Az}> yes Sammie :)))
[22:13] <EZRiser> doesnt that revert back to trust, Sammie
[22:13] <Sammie> of course it would have to be wanted by both,mutual
[22:13] <Sammie> yes EZ, guess your right :)
[22:13] <DomTeach`> first step is a bond must be formed
[22:14] <{sonja}JP> but there are also different levels of trust
[22:14] <raven{Az}> I agree DomTeach`
[22:14] <DomTeach`> this is a two way street both must be happy
[22:14] <raven{Az}> ok we have..trust, a bond, and power exchange...I agree that all of those must be prsent in a dom/sub relationship..
[22:15] <raven{Az}> however, the only thing that makes the relationship a bdsm one is the power exchange..I like to think the first two (trust and a bond) are present in all relationships (I know, rose colored glasses <g>)
[22:15] <DomTeach`> both must have the desire to become one
[22:15] <raven{Az}> different levels of trust..such as sonja?
[22:16] <{sonja}JP> i trust people in different ways - but only a few in my life would i trust WITH MY LIFE
[22:16] * raven{Az} will touch on the desire to become one next..
[22:16] <raven{Az}> should a sub/slave trust their dominant/master with thier life sonja?
[22:17] <DomTeach`> that total trust and commitment far exceeds most relationships
[22:17] <DomTeach`> marriage is recognized and encouraged by society
[22:17] <DomTeach`> this is not
[22:17] <{sonja}JP> absolutely
[22:18] * star{M} agrees with sonja
[22:18] <{sonja}JP> more importantly, i trust Master with my heart (which can sometimes mean more)
[22:18] <Sammie> I agree with Sonja also
[22:19] <raven{Az}> I agree DomTeach (on the trust comittment comment)
[22:19] <star{M}> i also whole-heartedly agree with DomTeach`
[22:19] <raven{Az}> I wish BDSM was recognized DomTeach
[22:19] <raven{Az}> I agree sonja! :)
[22:19] <raven{Az}> What about becoming one? do you think a d/s relationship allows more of a melding of the people involved with one another?
[22:20] <DomTeach`> yes because the trust is on a higher level
[22:20] <EZRiser> I am sure its recognized raven .. just not readily accepted by the norm, due to misinformation and old stereotypes
[22:20] <{sonja}JP> Master worries sometimes because He says that is such an "awesome" responsibility...which it is.....more so than tying me too tight :-)
[22:20] <star{M}> i thought we were one before, but this far exceeds what we felt before
[22:20] <Sammie> in the sense that if one person is more naturally controlling and the other more submissive, then they form one nicely
[22:21] * raven{Az} wants to add something to the trust with "heart" comment..it is extremely difficult for many people to trust someone with their heart..and I think it is absolutely neccessary to trust your dom with your heart, body and life..
[22:21] <raven{Az}> It isn't openly recognized is what i meant EZ..but you're right..
[22:21] <DomTeach`> we tend to seek and find our opposites here
[22:21] <raven{Az}> yes sonja..
[22:21] <Sammie> I agree Raven
[22:21] <{sonja}JP> my pastor made a point today that i think relates....
[22:21] <raven{Az}> agreed DomTeach
[22:21] <raven{Az}> what point sonja?
[22:22] <{sonja}JP> he said that the #1 problem in marriages today is lack of communication (his opinion, but mine as well)...i think that a D/s or M/s relationship Forces a better communication........which is- good
[22:22] <{sonja}JP> for the relationship
[22:22] <raven{Az}> yes I totally agree with that sonja..
[22:23] <DomTeach`> everything involves communicating
[22:23] * arella{C} nods..
[22:23] <DomTeach`> this is true in all cases
[22:23] <raven{Az}> True DomTeach
[22:23] <arella{C}> some people don't DomTeach`, they give as much information as necsasry, and no more
[22:24] <raven{Az}> or..they give the wrong information because they can't accept the truth of what they truly desire..this occurs in BDSM as well as vanilla..
[22:24] <arella{C}> in a M/s D/s relationship, it can't stop with only that information that is nessary
[22:24] * star{M} is having to communicate a WHOLE lot more now
[22:24] <Mordax> Does D/s force better communication, or does better communication lead to D/s? Chicken or the egg?
[22:25] <raven{Az}> I think it can go either way Mordax Sir..but the most common seems to be d/s forces/requires better communication..
[22:25] <raven{Az}> I agree arella...there must be complete honest communication from all involved for any BDSM relationship to work..
[22:26] <raven{Az}> we've covered m/s relationships..and now d/s ones..so lets go to the next one..what is a play partner relationship?
[22:26] <{sonja}JP> i would agree with raven.....specially if you start with just play...in order to move on, you have to have lots and lots of communication, if you want it to work
[22:26] <star{M}> but i see where He is going, raven. it wasnt until i could open up and express my desires that lead to our relationship we have now
[22:27] <raven{Az}> I agree sonja
[22:27] <raven{Az}> yes star..and that is very true...in that case, communication can lead to a d/s relationship
[22:27] <star{M}> ooops sorry, didnt know we had moved on.. *slow typist here*
[22:27] <raven{Az}> no problem star :)
[22:27] * raven{Az} doesn't mind going back and forth a bit...
[22:27] <star{M}> thanks :)
[22:28] <raven{Az}> welcome :)
[22:29] * star{M} sits back and listens as she has no clue about "play partners"
[22:29] <{sonja}JP> i have just started seeing some play partner relationships....they kind of boggle my mind...
[22:29] <raven{Az}> I define a play partner relationship as a relationship between people where play occurs sometimes..this may not mean the people involved are married, but they could be, may be they are just friends who enjoy playing together...the basis being that the focus of the relationsip is not a full time power exchange..but a power exchange only during play
[22:29] <raven{Az}> how do they boggle your mind sonja?
[22:30] <{sonja}JP> well...i was thinking of the more casual ones (not marriage)
[22:30] <raven{Az}> ahh..I see
[22:30] <star{M}> so its just for a "scene"?
[22:30] <raven{Az}> that's my definition, yes star
[22:30] <{sonja}JP> where two people just get together to "play" in the BDSM aspect......without the same level of CARE, it seems strange to me...
[22:31] <star{M}> ah, ok
[22:31] <star{M}> no committment there, i would think
[22:31] <{sonja}JP> but then, i dont understand all the swapping of subs either...so, it is all strange to me
[22:31] <raven{Az}> I think the same level of care exists during the scene..
[22:32] <raven{Az}> care meaning making sure the sub isn't hurt..and things like that..
[22:32] <raven{Az}> yes star..
[22:32] <arella{C}> yes, but not caring for each other raven
[22:32] <{sonja}JP> can it really be the SAME level of care?
[22:32] <{sonja}JP> oh ok
[22:32] <star{M}> oh ok..
[22:32] <arella{C}> the point being, just play, not building anything more
[22:32] * star{M} and sonja are on the same wavelength, i think :)
[22:32] <{sonja}JP> i dont think i could do that (wont say never, but i will think it:-))
[22:32] <arella{C}> kinda like having sex just to get off.
[22:33] <{sonja}JP> but see....i understand THAT - {ponders some more} thats strange...
[22:33] <Mordax> I will leave all of you subs to retire to the subbie den to continue this discussion...
[22:33] * arella{C} giggles
[22:33] * Mordax turns into a pumpkin
[22:33] <arella{C}> night Mordax
[22:34] <{sonja}JP> i think it is adding the SM to the Casual Sex that is strange for me
[22:34] <arella{C}> I just meant it's kinda like the same thing sonja
[22:34] <star{M}> i cant see how there can be the same level.. perhaps care, yes, but no responsibility or anything else
[22:34] <{sonja}JP> maybe it is because i never knew about BDSM before i was IN a D/s relationship???
[22:34] <arella{C}> some people only have sex to get off, using the condoms and everything to protect themselves, but it's not about love, and it's not about anything other then.. getting off
[22:35] <arella{C}> some people play, for the enjoyment of it, not because they want anything more from the sub, or dom after the playing, it's just.. fun to them
[22:35] <arella{C}> (this is just how I see it, personally, I couldn't do either)
[22:35] <{sonja}JP> i would just need a deeper level of commitment/love/caring/trust before i could let someone do some things to me...
[22:36] <{sonja}JP> i think
[22:36] <arella{C}> I agree sonja
[22:36] <arella{C}> but some people aren't ready for that degree of commitment/love/caring
[22:36] <arella{C}> and some just don't want it at all
[22:37] * star{M} agrees with sojna
[22:37] <arella{C}> some people, fully belive, that if you introduce love or caring in any way other then for the safty of the submissive/slave into the relationship, your making a mistake.
[22:37] <{sonja}JP> wow - everybody agree with intoxicated girl :-) {absolutely amazed that i can make ANY sense tonight}
[22:37] * arella{C} giggles
[22:37] <arella{C}> your making sense just fine sonja
[22:38] * star{M} smiles
[22:38] <{sonja}JP> huh?....back up a bit and restate that for me would you arella?
[22:38] <star{M}> wouldnt have known if you hadnt said anything, sojna
[22:38] <{sonja}JP> the one about introducing love/caring
[22:38] <arella{C}> okay, some people do not want love in a d/s relation ship
[22:38] <arella{C}> not in any shape or form
[22:39] <arella{C}> they do not think that it should be a part of it.
[22:39] <star{M}> really?
[22:39] <arella{C}> really
[22:39] <star{M}> wow...
[22:39] <arella{C}> everyone has different needs
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> used to be able to drink ALOT - but Master doesnt care for it, so i havent had much in a long while....didnt think i would have much of a tolerance left...
[22:39] * raven{Az} scrolls back having got lost
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> ok - that i got
[22:39] <arella{C}> and for some people, loving your slave/sub isn't part of d/s
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> welll,,,, i dont GET it, but now i understand what you said
[22:39] <arella{C}> they don't need that to play
[22:39] <star{M}> inconceivable!
[22:40] * arella{C} nods
[22:40] <arella{C}> for you star..
[22:40] <arella{C}> and for me really
[22:40] <{sonja}JP> i would say stupid, but that would be narrow-minded of me *giggle*
[22:40] <arella{C}> but I know it exists
[22:40] <arella{C}> okay, break for raven
[22:40] <star{M}> hmmm... but that is what we are here for.. to learn!
[22:40] <arella{C}> yeps :)
[22:41] <star{M}> :)
[22:41] <raven{Az}> ok..
[22:41] <{sonja}JP> i am learning not to be sooo judgmental....thinking that being involved in a BDSM relationship should sort of preclude that type of thinking
[22:41] <raven{Az}> yes..there are people who feel that love gets in the way of a true power exchange in a d/s realtionship
[22:42] * raven{Az} doesn't believe that..
[22:42] * star{M} waves and skips off to the bedroom
[22:42] <{sonja}JP> i would LOVE to speak to someone who really did think that....
[22:42] <raven{Az}> and yes, in a play partner arrangement, there is not the same level of caring outside of sceneing, that is prsent in a comitted relationship..though in most cases the people are at the very least, close friends..
[22:42] <{sonja}JP> <-----loves to debate
[21:17] <raven{Az}> You must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave. Legal age being 18 or 21 depending on your location, if you are thought to be younger, you will be asked your age. If you are found to be younger, you will be kick/banned.
[21:18] <raven{Az}> No trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night Trolling is the advertising of yourself, wants/needs/desires, and/or personal ads. If you troll, you will be kick/banned.
[21:18] <raven{Az}> Harassment will not be tolerated either. If you harass another person, and an op is made aware of it, you will be asked to stop. If you continue, you will be kick/banned. This discussion is for enjoyment and information, not harassment.
[21:18] <raven{Az}> Please try to stay on topic and discuss one thread at a time. If the discussion gets overly fast (or overly emotional, or someone requests a break), I will call a break. This is so everyone can take a few moments to relax, and get their thoughts in order before continuing.
[21:18] <raven{Az}> If it erodes into a semantics argument, and those who are disagreeing can not agree to disagree, I will close the discussion for the night. We are here to discuss and learn from one anther, not fight with one another.
[21:18] <raven{Az}> Please be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. Flaming is insulting the person who states an idea. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[21:19] <raven{Az}> All statements are publishable on the web site,. I will change nicks if it is requested via email to webmaster@leathernroses.com. If I receive no requests, logs will be published in full on the web site and the lack of a request will be taken as consent to publish your statements.
[21:19] <raven{Az}> I hope you enjoy tonight's discussion, the topic is Types Of Relationships In BDSM
[21:19] <raven{Az}> when you think about relationships in BDSM, what types are there?
[21:20] <{sonja}JP> ummmmmmmmmm
[21:20] <arella{C}> Master/slave, Dominant/submissive, Top/bottom
[21:20] <star{M}> real ones, cyber ones
[21:21] <EZRiser> 24/7 .. bedroom only .. or the casual play party style .. which aint really a realationship .. but .. .. to name a few
[21:21] <raven{Az}> mentorships, play partners
[21:21] * raven{Az} smiles..looks like we got them all..
[21:21] <raven{Az}> what makes something a relationship?
[21:21] <{sonja}JP> i would combine stars with all the others...
[21:22] <raven{Az}> I was counting stars :)
[21:22] <{sonja}JP> i meant each of the others and then subcategory - real time or cyber...
[21:22] <raven{Az}> yes..
[21:25] <raven{Az}> allright, we can take them one at a time...what is a master/slave relationship?
[21:25] <EZRiser> do we want to narrow this wide field down a bit .. for discussion and breivity's sake
[21:25] <raven{Az}> how so EZ?
[21:26] <Mordax> Master/slave relationship is one in which the slave gives up some measure of control to the Master, is it not?
[21:26] <EZRiser> well .. arella's, mine ..star's and yours .. they could all warrant a night on their own
[21:26] <{sonja}JP> some? - i would say all...
[21:26] <raven{Az}> I was thinking just talking in general of what kinds of relationships can/do occur in the broad spectrum of bdsm..I've covered master/slave by itself..and dom/sub by itself before..
[21:26] * star{M} was thinking all too
[21:27] <raven{Az}> yes EZ..I have been doing that..the focus I was hoping to get tonight, was just general understanding of the different possibilities out there..so someone dosen't think they can only have a certain type in order to be involved in BDSM
[21:27] <raven{Az}> I agree with sonja..in an m/s relationship the slaves gives total control to the master...most frequently without safewords or the slave setting limits on the master..
[21:27] <EZRiser> Mordax .. I would think that in a Master/slave ..the slave gives up more than just a bit of control .. its pretty total
[21:28] <raven{Az}> Would you consider an m/s relationship to then be more extreme than some of the other relationships?
[21:28] <arella{C}> yes.. I would think so
[21:28] <{sonja}JP> depends on whether you are talking mentally or physically
[21:28] <Mordax> I stand corrected. I'm still fuzzy on the definitions.
[21:29] <raven{Az}> lets start with mentally..
[21:29] <EZRiser> why so sonja .. wouldnt it be total .. and be both
[21:29] <{sonja}JP> i would say that it is more extreme, mentally
[21:30] <{sonja}JP> there are some SM aspects that are more physically "extreme" that are necessarily a part of a M/s relationship - mine for example
[21:30] <{sonja}JP> oooops i meant are NOT necessarily
[21:30] <raven{Az}> well..I was using the word extreme as in a scale..lets see a play partner arrangement (get together once in a while for a scene) as being not extreme...a tpe m/s relationship, extreme..
[21:31] <raven{Az}> I have to agree that the m/s relationship is extreme in the mental aspects, but may not be as extreme physically..
[21:31] <raven{Az}> physical stuff seems to depend heavily on those involved and what they like or do not like..
[21:31] <{sonja}JP> then, yes, i would agree that a M/s relationship is at the top of that scale
[21:32] <raven{Az}> what makes the m/s relationship extreme mentally?
[21:32] <arella{C}> the level of.. give and take?
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> Master asked me to give Him a definition of COMPLETE one time.......to show that i was prepared to give Him complete control.......
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> it was kind of eye-opening to have to define it that way
[21:33] * EZRiser nods in agreement with arella .. the total control given ..
[21:33] <arella{C}> it has to be accepted to EZ..
[21:36] <raven{Az}> how so sonja?
[21:36] <EZRiser> in a M/s relationship .. there is no other way .. tho I still have a hard time seeing the difference between that and a Dom/sub arrangement .. to me, there seems to be little difference
[21:36] <raven{Az}> I agree arella..
[21:36] <{sonja}JP> exactly arella, Taking complete control of someone is as mentally challenging as Giving someone complete control - sometimes harder even (i think)
[21:36] <arella{C}> I think, in most peoples concept of Dom/sub, there is more.. leeway..
[21:37] <raven{Az}> the differences are rather subtle EZ..from what I've seen/heard they focus mostly on the slave does not tell the master "you can't do this to me" via limits, and usually there are no safewords...
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> EZ, one of the biggest difs i see is the absence of a safeword.......when a "slave" gives up her last bit of control
[21:37] <arella{C}> safe words (no lets not get into this discussion)
[21:37] <raven{Az}> LOL arella..not tonight..
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> ummm - good idea
[21:37] * arella{C} giggles.. love it when we're all on the same page
[21:37] <arella{C}> I was just gonna finish with mostly what you two had said..
[21:37] <arella{C}> and.. just stopped after I read
[21:37] * raven{Az} giggles..
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> lol
[21:37] <raven{Az}> sure cuts down on sore fingers.. :)
[21:37] <EZRiser> would it not be that it would still be the Masters responsibility to see to it that his sub/slave is ...
[21:37] <star{M}> from the little i know, i see the difference between D/s and M/s is a matter of degrees
[21:38] * arella{C} nods
[21:38] <{sonja}JP> right - and often one flows into the other quite naturally
[21:38] <EZRiser> kept from harm .. regardless of safewords or the absence of such
[21:38] <arella{C}> yes, I think so star
[21:38] <arella{C}> no matter what relationship your in, or what you want to call it, both people have to be aware of safty EZ..
[21:39] <{sonja}JP> ah - yes EZ, which brings up my (very personal belief) that there is a higher degree of trust in a M/s relationship
[21:39] <EZRiser> then a safe word .. in an ideal world .. shouldnt be necessary .. its all about testing limits .. growing .. together ..
[21:39] <raven{Az}> I agree with star..it's a matter of degrees..
[21:40] <raven{Az}> many d/s relationship, eventually become m/s ones between the people involved..
[21:40] <arella{C}> yes EZ..
[21:40] <star{M}> Master would be or should be more responsible for slave's safety as she is trusting him more
[21:40] <raven{Az}> the trust grows as time goes on in the relationship and eventually the sub gives total control to the dominant..including dropping the safeword..
[21:40] <raven{Az}> however..there are such thigns as m/s relationships that start that way from the first day...
[21:40] <{sonja}JP> exactly raven - i know i struggled with "labeling" our relationship as M/s though we were living it......just cause of the verbiage
[21:40] <raven{Az}> yes sonja..and i can understand that.. :)
[21:41] <raven{Az}> yes EZ!! That's why I prefer not to use a safeword.. :)
[21:41] <raven{Az}> In the case of a d/s relationship which grows into an m/s one...do you see a problem with calling the relatinship m/s?
[21:42] <{sonja}JP> we did/ i did/ i can see where it is a problem for others....
[21:42] <Sammie> did I miss the discussion?
[21:42] <arella{C}> nope, happening right now
[21:43] <{sonja}JP> then again - i have a problem listening to myself BEG for a flogging - the words are sometimes a sticking point
[21:43] <raven{Az}> [21:41] <raven{Az}> In the case of a d/s relationship which grows into an m/s one...do you see a problem with calling the relatinship m/s?
[21:43] <raven{Az}> that's the question on the table.. :)
[21:43] <Sammie> good topic
[21:43] <raven{Az}> Do you think it is fair or correct of someone to say that because the relationship started out d/s, it could not possibly be a "real" m/s relationship?
[21:44] <raven{Az}> the topic is types of relationsips Sammie..and m/s came up first..so I'm taking them one at a time..and talking in general about them..
[21:44] <{sonja}JP> NO!, but obviously i am biased....what would be the reasoning behind that?
[21:44] <Eric__> I'm not certain that I distinguish to that level in relationships.... for a few reasons
[21:44] <raven{Az}> why Eric?
[21:45] <Eric__> well, for one thing, what I consider m/s may not be the same as what you do...
[21:45] <raven{Az}> you'd be surprised sonja..some say that such mobility/changeability in a relationship somehow cheapens those who start their relationship at the m/s level..personally I think that is the wrong way to view anything..
[21:45] <raven{Az}> ok..what do you consider m/s Eric?
[21:45] <Eric__> and for another it's really somewhat unimportant to me what the relationship is labeled
[21:46] <raven{Az}> I can understand how a label is unimportant..however, having some terms for things does make it alot easier to understand and discuss bdsm
[21:46] <Sammie> I believe my relationship to be both, but I would like to hear other's definitions on ms
[21:46] <star{M}> only if the term "slave" is derogatory to the sub... i still find the term offensive and cant see myself as that right now even though the definitions fit
[21:46] <EZRiser> I agree with that completely .. labels are to let someone else 'know' what is going on .. whats between the two involved is what works for them
[21:46] <arella{C}> Why is the term offensive?
[21:46] <raven{Az}> I define m/s as the slave giving total control to the master..a tpe
[21:46] <raven{Az}> I understand that star..
[21:47] <raven{Az}> some people make the words sound like insults..
[21:47] <Eric__> of course it does raven.... but I don't break it down all that much, I tend to lump it all as d/s. I don't see a need to break it down that much, and prefer not to
[21:47] <Sammie> well, that's me, I belong completely to my Master
[21:47] <star{M}> just how i was raised, arella....
[21:47] <arella{C}> okay star..
[21:47] <raven{Az}> for example: slave = doormat...brat = wannabe...bottom=player
[21:47] <raven{Az}> see?
[21:47] <star{M}> perhaps in time :)
[21:48] * arella{C} smiles.. yes raven.. I see..
[21:48] <raven{Az}> I can understand that Eric..but we're breaking it down because there are many who do so and many people who wish to learn for themselves what the different relatinship options are available tot hem..
[21:48] <Sammie> but sm is about pleasure in giving/receiving pain
[21:48] <arella{C}> not sm
[21:48] <arella{C}> Master/slave
[21:48] <raven{Az}> yes Sammie but we are talking about relationships..not s/m play..
[21:48] <arella{C}> m/s
[21:48] <Sammie> oh, ok
[21:49] * raven{Az} wants to say something..
[21:49] <Eric__> <grins> well then .... m/s denotes a level of control extending into all areas of the life of the bottom. It does not necessarily denote micro-management
[21:49] <raven{Az}> please, do not feel that you are "less of a submissive" or "less of a dominant" for the discussion here tonight. that is not my intent at all. the intent is simply to discuss different things, learn, and enjoy the conversation...
[21:49] <arella{C}> some people do consider slave = micro managment, however, it does not have to, it would all *I* think depend on what the submissive/slave Needs
[21:50] <raven{Az}> I, personally, do not believe that one must be either slave, sub, master, dominant, top, or a water buffalo to be involved in BDSM.
[21:50] <raven{Az}> That's how I define it Eric..:))
[21:50] <{sonja}JP> lol, raven :-)
[21:50] * arella{C} giggles
[21:50] <raven{Az}> I agree arella :)
[21:50] * raven{Az} smiles.
[21:50] <Sammie> I don't see what is wrong with being a slave to one's Master
[21:50] <arella{C}> some people require/want/NEED micro managment, it drives other people bonkers
[21:50] <Sammie> I don't go around telling others I am a slave
[21:50] <raven{Az}> star, so you know, I could never apply the word slave to myself 2 yers ago...for the same reason as you...I have learned differently..:)
[21:51] <raven{Az}> drive me nuts arella!
[21:51] <{sonja}JP> i just thought of something - certainly an African-American in a D/s relationship Might have a serious problem with the label - quite understandably...
[21:51] <arella{C}> this is true sonja
[21:51] <arella{C}> but, the lable doesn't refer to .. that type of slavery..
[21:51] <{sonja}JP> something i really hadnt thought about before
[21:51] <{sonja}JP> true arella, but the WORD
[21:51] <raven{Az}> well Sammie, personally, I don't understand completely why others ahve to put down a person when they say they are slave to their master, but no one else..I think it's great if someone reaches the level of submission they feel most comfortable and happy with..be it slavery or something else..
[21:51] <arella{C}> I do agree sonja..
[21:52] <raven{Az}> yes sonja! I hadn't even thought of that..and it would make alot of sense..
[21:52] <Sammie> agreed
[21:52] <star{M}> oh dont get me wrong, please! i was just answering a question. i wasnt offended at all!
[21:52] <raven{Az}> it would be very hard to assimilate our definition of slavery with what the african americans went through years ago..
[21:52] <star{M}> but thank you for your concern :)
[21:52] <{sonja}JP> i also had a very hard time calling myself a slave (heck!, still do on occasion)
[21:52] <arella{C}> the thing is, some people might look at someone, who is perfectly happy in a M/s relationship, and say.. Oh look.. she's/he's a doormat, they do every thing their Master says.. don't even argue.. tthey may just have reached a point, where that is what they are comfortable with.
[21:53] <raven{Az}> I know star..:)))) was just letting everyone know..with a discussion like this one, it is very easy to think someone is coming down on others...(that was also for the benefit of those who read the log later on the web site.)
[21:53] <Sammie> I never thought of "slavery" that way either, cuz my Master is very loving and caring
[21:53] <raven{Az}> yes arella...
[21:53] <EZRiser> I would think ,,, that in reaching that level of submission, regardless of ones ethnic background, they would be proud to admit that they are slaave to a certain person
[21:53] <raven{Az}> depends on the upbringing I think EZ...honestly...
[21:54] <star{M}> oh ok, raven{Az} :) gotcha!
[21:54] * raven{Az} winks to star..
[21:54] <{sonja}JP> truly.....i had a hard time calling myself "submissive", and then to go to SLAVE????
[21:54] <EZRiser> but being as I dont come from a 'diverse' background .. I couldnt speak for them
[21:54] <raven{Az}> I can understand that sonja! it sort of short circuits the brain..
[21:54] <raven{Az}> now...if one can't submit to the level of a slave, and is happy that way, does that mean they are less involved in bdsm?
[21:55] <arella{C}> yes, but if you spent your whole childhood, being taught, how wrong slavery IS, how evil the ones who made them slaves were.. can you even imagine being able to admit that you desire to be slave?
[21:55] <arella{C}> EZ
[21:55] <Sammie> I didn't have a prob with that, but have a hard time referring to Master respectfully as Sir all the time
[21:55] <{sonja}JP> yanno Sammie - i think that is a point i also see in a lot of M/s relationships - just how "sweet" their master is
[21:55] <raven{Az}> it is very hard to admit arella..
[21:56] <Sammie> what do you mean Sonja??
[21:56] <star{M}> exactly, arella{C}!
[21:56] <EZRiser> they are two completely different worlds .. there is no connection tween the two at all
[21:56] <{sonja}JP> i am a bit behind (too much rum)....i was looking at your note earlier about how loving your master was
[21:56] <arella{C}> Yes EZ.. but.. it's all mind set.. isn't everything?
[21:56] <Sammie> right :)
[21:56] <{sonja}JP> i see that with a lot of M/s relationships - the high level of caring from Master to slave...
[21:57] <Sammie> yes, that is how it is. Not in any sense abusive
[21:57] <raven{Az}> The level of caring is something that many people have a problem with...do yoou think there should be less caring in an m/s relationship or more?
[21:57] <star{M}> however i have become so comfortable calling my Hubby "Master" that i nearly blurted it out in front of the kids last night! So worried i will slip in public!
[21:57] <arella{C}> Whatever the people in the relationship NEED raven.. :)
[21:57] <{sonja}JP> more more more......(IMHO)
[21:57] <raven{Az}> LOL star now that's comfy!! that's great!!
[21:57] <Sammie> me too Star!!!! lol
[21:57] <{sonja}JP> good point arella
[21:57] <raven{Az}> yes arella :)
[21:57] <arella{C}> no matter what relationship it is.. it's going to have to be defined by the participants..
[21:58] * arella{C} feels all smart tonight
[21:58] <raven{Az}> I agree sonja..I think the m/s relationship, by it's nature of being a bit more "extreme" (via guidelines I set before) would require more care on the dom's part..
[21:58] <raven{Az}> and the sub's for that matter..
[21:58] <raven{Az}> so..lets go to d/s relationships..what *is* a d/s relationship anyway?
[21:58] <{sonja}JP> i think it is also where the level of trust comes in
[21:58] <raven{Az}> yes sonja.. :)
[21:59] <raven{Az}> ok.hold off on that question..sorry, didn't realize people were still discussing the caring in m/s..go ahead
[21:59] <raven{Az}> sorry all..got a bit lost..
[21:59] * EZRiser laughs slightly ...mine calls me that on the phone, star .. she works in a hospital icu ward .. she has to be careful .. but she does slip on occasion
[22:00] * star{M} smiles
[22:01] <{sonja}JP> i call Master .... Master, Sir or hun - alll the time.......well, except in bed - occsly, i go back to "Jase"
[22:01] <Sammie> what's the diff with D/s and MS then? I thought they were the same
[22:01] <arella{C}> D/s where it isn't just in the bedroom, but not quite.. tpe?
[22:02] <Sammie> My kids hear me call Master "Sir" and think nothing of it now
[22:02] <raven{Az}> d/s ...is a relationship between a dominant and a submissive..in which the sub can (and usually does But NOT always) set limits on the dominant..
[22:02] <raven{Az}> yes arella..it is outside the bedroom, but not a complete tpe
[22:02] <Sammie> I wouldn't have defined it that way
[22:03] <raven{Az}> how do you define it Sammie?
[22:03] <star{M}> raven, in the past month and a half, there has been more caring, more concern, compassion, understanding, and trust than there was in the prior 18 years of marriage. i can not deny there is more caring in a D/s or M/s relationship.
[22:03] <Sammie> because as a sub I wouldn't be the one to set limits
[22:03] <raven{Az}> CONGRATS star!!
[22:03] <raven{Az}> you define submission the way I do..:)
[22:04] <Sammie> :) I have my opinions which Master will listen to but he decides everything
[22:04] <Sammie> and he sets the limits
[22:04] <Sammie> I don't even use a safe word
[22:04] <{sonja}JP> that is what i would call a M/s relationship sammie....
[22:04] <raven{Az}> I'd say you have an M/s relationship Sammie :)
[22:04] <Sammie> oh? but our relationship is also outside the bedroom
[22:05] <raven{Az}> an M/s relationship is definitely outside the bedroom ..:)
[22:05] <Sammie> so D/s is with limits? is that the diff?
[22:05] <Sammie> sorry, I missed the beginning of this discussion
[22:05] <raven{Az}> it's part of the difference yes Sammie..and as well a d/s relationship can move into an m/s one as the trust between those involved grows..
[22:05] <raven{Az}> no problem Sammie..I don't mind answering the quetsions..and I'm sure no one else minds either.. :)
[22:06] <Sammie> thanx
[22:06] * raven{Az} smiles..welcome
[22:06] <Sammie> is D/s then primarily in the bedroom?
[22:07] <raven{Az}> no Sammie...not by my definition..
[22:07] <arella{C}> no..
[22:07] <Sammie> one being dominant and the other submissive?
[22:07] <raven{Az}> by my definition..d/s is outside the bedroom..but there are limits on the dom's control which are set by the sub..
[22:07] <Sammie> sheesh, then I don't see a big diff
[22:07] <raven{Az}> there isn't a big difference Sammie..
[22:07] <raven{Az}> it's rather subtle
[22:07] <arella{C}> not a real big difference.. more.. tiny things..
[22:07] <Sammie> ok, the limits part
[22:08] <Sammie> discipline and punishment happen in both I would guess?
[22:08] <raven{Az}> in many d/s relationships the submissive has a safeword..thru which they can stop a scene at any time..slaves don't ahve that..
[22:08] <raven{Az}> yes.. :)
[22:09] <raven{Az}> what do you consider to be a d/s relationship Sammie?
[22:10] <Sammie> well, I thought it was the same as SM just different words
[22:10] <Sammie> my Master calls me sub and slave
[22:10] * star{M} cant remember safeword... havent needed to use it, but i feel that is the sign of an observant and excellent Master
[22:10] <raven{Az}> ok :)
[22:11] <raven{Az}> in your opinion, what components are neccssary for a relationship to be a d/s one?
[22:11] <{sonja}JP> i remember mine - i also remember the day i told Master i would never ever use it...
[22:12] <Mordax> Trust is probably the most important element in any relationship, not just D/s
[22:12] <raven{Az}> yes Mordax Sir! :))
[22:12] <arella{C}> yeppers
[22:12] <Sammie> well, I'd say a major component would have to be one letting go and the other taking control
[22:12] * star{M} beams and smiles at Master
[22:12] <raven{Az}> yes Sammie :)))
[22:13] <EZRiser> doesnt that revert back to trust, Sammie
[22:13] <Sammie> of course it would have to be wanted by both,mutual
[22:13] <Sammie> yes EZ, guess your right :)
[22:13] <DomTeach`> first step is a bond must be formed
[22:14] <{sonja}JP> but there are also different levels of trust
[22:14] <raven{Az}> I agree DomTeach`
[22:14] <DomTeach`> this is a two way street both must be happy
[22:14] <raven{Az}> ok we have..trust, a bond, and power exchange...I agree that all of those must be prsent in a dom/sub relationship..
[22:15] <raven{Az}> however, the only thing that makes the relationship a bdsm one is the power exchange..I like to think the first two (trust and a bond) are present in all relationships (I know, rose colored glasses <g>)
[22:15] <DomTeach`> both must have the desire to become one
[22:15] <raven{Az}> different levels of trust..such as sonja?
[22:16] <{sonja}JP> i trust people in different ways - but only a few in my life would i trust WITH MY LIFE
[22:16] * raven{Az} will touch on the desire to become one next..
[22:16] <raven{Az}> should a sub/slave trust their dominant/master with thier life sonja?
[22:17] <DomTeach`> that total trust and commitment far exceeds most relationships
[22:17] <DomTeach`> marriage is recognized and encouraged by society
[22:17] <DomTeach`> this is not
[22:17] <{sonja}JP> absolutely
[22:18] * star{M} agrees with sonja
[22:18] <{sonja}JP> more importantly, i trust Master with my heart (which can sometimes mean more)
[22:18] <Sammie> I agree with Sonja also
[22:19] <raven{Az}> I agree DomTeach (on the trust comittment comment)
[22:19] <star{M}> i also whole-heartedly agree with DomTeach`
[22:19] <raven{Az}> I wish BDSM was recognized DomTeach
[22:19] <raven{Az}> I agree sonja! :)
[22:19] <raven{Az}> What about becoming one? do you think a d/s relationship allows more of a melding of the people involved with one another?
[22:20] <DomTeach`> yes because the trust is on a higher level
[22:20] <EZRiser> I am sure its recognized raven .. just not readily accepted by the norm, due to misinformation and old stereotypes
[22:20] <{sonja}JP> Master worries sometimes because He says that is such an "awesome" responsibility...which it is.....more so than tying me too tight :-)
[22:20] <star{M}> i thought we were one before, but this far exceeds what we felt before
[22:20] <Sammie> in the sense that if one person is more naturally controlling and the other more submissive, then they form one nicely
[22:21] * raven{Az} wants to add something to the trust with "heart" comment..it is extremely difficult for many people to trust someone with their heart..and I think it is absolutely neccessary to trust your dom with your heart, body and life..
[22:21] <raven{Az}> It isn't openly recognized is what i meant EZ..but you're right..
[22:21] <DomTeach`> we tend to seek and find our opposites here
[22:21] <raven{Az}> yes sonja..
[22:21] <Sammie> I agree Raven
[22:21] <{sonja}JP> my pastor made a point today that i think relates....
[22:21] <raven{Az}> agreed DomTeach
[22:21] <raven{Az}> what point sonja?
[22:22] <{sonja}JP> he said that the #1 problem in marriages today is lack of communication (his opinion, but mine as well)...i think that a D/s or M/s relationship Forces a better communication........which is- good
[22:22] <{sonja}JP> for the relationship
[22:22] <raven{Az}> yes I totally agree with that sonja..
[22:23] <DomTeach`> everything involves communicating
[22:23] * arella{C} nods..
[22:23] <DomTeach`> this is true in all cases
[22:23] <raven{Az}> True DomTeach
[22:23] <arella{C}> some people don't DomTeach`, they give as much information as necsasry, and no more
[22:24] <raven{Az}> or..they give the wrong information because they can't accept the truth of what they truly desire..this occurs in BDSM as well as vanilla..
[22:24] <arella{C}> in a M/s D/s relationship, it can't stop with only that information that is nessary
[22:24] * star{M} is having to communicate a WHOLE lot more now
[22:24] <Mordax> Does D/s force better communication, or does better communication lead to D/s? Chicken or the egg?
[22:25] <raven{Az}> I think it can go either way Mordax Sir..but the most common seems to be d/s forces/requires better communication..
[22:25] <raven{Az}> I agree arella...there must be complete honest communication from all involved for any BDSM relationship to work..
[22:26] <raven{Az}> we've covered m/s relationships..and now d/s ones..so lets go to the next one..what is a play partner relationship?
[22:26] <{sonja}JP> i would agree with raven.....specially if you start with just play...in order to move on, you have to have lots and lots of communication, if you want it to work
[22:26] <star{M}> but i see where He is going, raven. it wasnt until i could open up and express my desires that lead to our relationship we have now
[22:27] <raven{Az}> I agree sonja
[22:27] <raven{Az}> yes star..and that is very true...in that case, communication can lead to a d/s relationship
[22:27] <star{M}> ooops sorry, didnt know we had moved on.. *slow typist here*
[22:27] <raven{Az}> no problem star :)
[22:27] * raven{Az} doesn't mind going back and forth a bit...
[22:27] <star{M}> thanks :)
[22:28] <raven{Az}> welcome :)
[22:29] * star{M} sits back and listens as she has no clue about "play partners"
[22:29] <{sonja}JP> i have just started seeing some play partner relationships....they kind of boggle my mind...
[22:29] <raven{Az}> I define a play partner relationship as a relationship between people where play occurs sometimes..this may not mean the people involved are married, but they could be, may be they are just friends who enjoy playing together...the basis being that the focus of the relationsip is not a full time power exchange..but a power exchange only during play
[22:29] <raven{Az}> how do they boggle your mind sonja?
[22:30] <{sonja}JP> well...i was thinking of the more casual ones (not marriage)
[22:30] <raven{Az}> ahh..I see
[22:30] <star{M}> so its just for a "scene"?
[22:30] <raven{Az}> that's my definition, yes star
[22:30] <{sonja}JP> where two people just get together to "play" in the BDSM aspect......without the same level of CARE, it seems strange to me...
[22:31] <star{M}> ah, ok
[22:31] <star{M}> no committment there, i would think
[22:31] <{sonja}JP> but then, i dont understand all the swapping of subs either...so, it is all strange to me
[22:31] <raven{Az}> I think the same level of care exists during the scene..
[22:32] <raven{Az}> care meaning making sure the sub isn't hurt..and things like that..
[22:32] <raven{Az}> yes star..
[22:32] <arella{C}> yes, but not caring for each other raven
[22:32] <{sonja}JP> can it really be the SAME level of care?
[22:32] <{sonja}JP> oh ok
[22:32] <star{M}> oh ok..
[22:32] <arella{C}> the point being, just play, not building anything more
[22:32] * star{M} and sonja are on the same wavelength, i think :)
[22:32] <{sonja}JP> i dont think i could do that (wont say never, but i will think it:-))
[22:32] <arella{C}> kinda like having sex just to get off.
[22:33] <{sonja}JP> but see....i understand THAT - {ponders some more} thats strange...
[22:33] <Mordax> I will leave all of you subs to retire to the subbie den to continue this discussion...
[22:33] * arella{C} giggles
[22:33] * Mordax turns into a pumpkin
[22:33] <arella{C}> night Mordax
[22:34] <{sonja}JP> i think it is adding the SM to the Casual Sex that is strange for me
[22:34] <arella{C}> I just meant it's kinda like the same thing sonja
[22:34] <star{M}> i cant see how there can be the same level.. perhaps care, yes, but no responsibility or anything else
[22:34] <{sonja}JP> maybe it is because i never knew about BDSM before i was IN a D/s relationship???
[22:34] <arella{C}> some people only have sex to get off, using the condoms and everything to protect themselves, but it's not about love, and it's not about anything other then.. getting off
[22:35] <arella{C}> some people play, for the enjoyment of it, not because they want anything more from the sub, or dom after the playing, it's just.. fun to them
[22:35] <arella{C}> (this is just how I see it, personally, I couldn't do either)
[22:35] <{sonja}JP> i would just need a deeper level of commitment/love/caring/trust before i could let someone do some things to me...
[22:36] <{sonja}JP> i think
[22:36] <arella{C}> I agree sonja
[22:36] <arella{C}> but some people aren't ready for that degree of commitment/love/caring
[22:36] <arella{C}> and some just don't want it at all
[22:37] * star{M} agrees with sojna
[22:37] <arella{C}> some people, fully belive, that if you introduce love or caring in any way other then for the safty of the submissive/slave into the relationship, your making a mistake.
[22:37] <{sonja}JP> wow - everybody agree with intoxicated girl :-) {absolutely amazed that i can make ANY sense tonight}
[22:37] * arella{C} giggles
[22:37] <arella{C}> your making sense just fine sonja
[22:38] * star{M} smiles
[22:38] <{sonja}JP> huh?....back up a bit and restate that for me would you arella?
[22:38] <star{M}> wouldnt have known if you hadnt said anything, sojna
[22:38] <{sonja}JP> the one about introducing love/caring
[22:38] <arella{C}> okay, some people do not want love in a d/s relation ship
[22:38] <arella{C}> not in any shape or form
[22:39] <arella{C}> they do not think that it should be a part of it.
[22:39] <star{M}> really?
[22:39] <arella{C}> really
[22:39] <star{M}> wow...
[22:39] <arella{C}> everyone has different needs
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> used to be able to drink ALOT - but Master doesnt care for it, so i havent had much in a long while....didnt think i would have much of a tolerance left...
[22:39] * raven{Az} scrolls back having got lost
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> ok - that i got
[22:39] <arella{C}> and for some people, loving your slave/sub isn't part of d/s
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> welll,,,, i dont GET it, but now i understand what you said
[22:39] <arella{C}> they don't need that to play
[22:39] <star{M}> inconceivable!
[22:40] * arella{C} nods
[22:40] <arella{C}> for you star..
[22:40] <arella{C}> and for me really
[22:40] <{sonja}JP> i would say stupid, but that would be narrow-minded of me *giggle*
[22:40] <arella{C}> but I know it exists
[22:40] <arella{C}> okay, break for raven
[22:40] <star{M}> hmmm... but that is what we are here for.. to learn!
[22:40] <arella{C}> yeps :)
[22:41] <star{M}> :)
[22:41] <raven{Az}> ok..
[22:41] <{sonja}JP> i am learning not to be sooo judgmental....thinking that being involved in a BDSM relationship should sort of preclude that type of thinking
[22:41] <raven{Az}> yes..there are people who feel that love gets in the way of a true power exchange in a d/s realtionship
[22:42] * raven{Az} doesn't believe that..
[22:42] * star{M} waves and skips off to the bedroom
[22:42] <{sonja}JP> i would LOVE to speak to someone who really did think that....
[22:42] <raven{Az}> and yes, in a play partner arrangement, there is not the same level of caring outside of sceneing, that is prsent in a comitted relationship..though in most cases the people are at the very least, close friends..
[22:42] <{sonja}JP> <-----loves to debate
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