Sub-Space & Dom-Space

Session Start: Sun Sep 17 21:11:06 2000
[21:11] *** Now talking in #leather_and_roses
[21:11] *** Topic is '[18+ BDSM] Discussion tonight: Sub Space/Dom Space: 9PM Central, 10PM Eastern: http://www.leatherNroses.com'
[21:12] * raven^Ron says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions on BDSM the following rules apply..
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[21:14] <raven^Ron> tonight's topic Sub Space and Dom Space...
[21:14] <raven^Ron> first off..what is sub space?
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> someone PLEASE answer that coherently for me!
[21:15] * raven^Ron giggles
[21:15] * star{M} hasnt a clue
[21:15] * ladyj goes and sits by star
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> uhoh
[21:15] <star{M}> :)
[21:15] <raven^Ron> raven: sub space, is the reaction a submissive haas during physical pain. the experience varies for everyone, but some commanalities seem to be:
[21:16] <raven^Ron> 1: feeling as if one is floating/flying/high almost
[21:16] <raven^Ron> 2: a connection with the dominant that allows the sub to feel where the dom is, maybe even "see" them, at all times..
[21:16] <raven^Ron> would that be a fairly decent general definition?
[21:16] <ana{Cor}> it doesn't have to be only a reaction to pain though raven.. 
[21:17] <raven^Ron> Ron: I can talk about the endorphines and stuff, but can't describe the emotions, having never been there..
[21:17] <EZRiser> I would say any type of intense physical or mental sensation
[21:17] <{sonja}JP> that is great - i have gotten a "general" idea from talk - but never a good def.
[21:17] <EZRiser> as opposed to just physical pain
[21:17] * LAR^ can describe Dom Space, but not Sub Space
[21:17] <raven^Ron> true ana, what other things besides pain can bring about a sub space?
[21:17] <raven^Ron> sounds good EZ 
[21:18] <ana{Cor}> intense emotional or physical sensation of any kind really..
[21:18] <ladyj> yes
[21:18] <raven^Ron> I don't know ana..I've had intense emotional reactions without floating like i do with subspace...
[21:18] <ana{Cor}> some people(not in my experience, but I've heard), can go into subspace simply from the sound of their dominants voice
[21:18] <EZRiser> and yes ... prolonged exposure to it .. 
[21:18] * LAR^ has gotten a sub into space just by tone and behavior
[21:18] <raven^Ron> maybe it differs for everyone as to what they experience as sub space?
[21:19] <ladyj> maybe ive never been there
[21:19] <ladyj> not sure
[21:19] <ana{Cor}> I think so raven..
[21:19] <raven^Ron> I've heard that as well ana..never experienced it, though certain tones have made me feel more pliant if that makes sense..
[21:19] * ana{Cor} nods, yes it does.. what if the .. tone had gone on for longer?
[21:19] <{sonja}JP> i would say if you had ladyj, you would know it...
[21:19] <ladyj> yes
[21:20] <raven^Ron> Ron: EZ, like a runner's high?
[21:20] <EZRiser> cant speak for a sub state of mind .. but that might equate to it .. 
[21:20] <ana{Cor}> I had someone describe subspace, as a feeling of euphoria, and in most cases, an extreamly .. Pliant state of mind.. to the point of.. "Do whatever you want, I don't much care anymore"
[21:21] <raven^Ron> what are some things the subs here have experienced during sub space? tingling? lightheaded? etc
[21:21] * raven^Ron nods to ana..yes..and for me, I can't talk either..
[21:21] <ana{Cor}> total relaxation.. calmness..
[21:21] <star{M}> like savoring sensations to the point that no one or nothing else exists but Master
[21:21] <raven^Ron> yes ana..but also extreme physical arousal..<giggle>
[21:22] <ana{Cor}> erm.. not exactly those words.. it's rather hard to come up with Just the right ones.. more of.. exceptance
[21:22] <EZRiser> good point star .. no one else exists .. 
[21:22] <ana{Cor}> yes raven
[21:22] <{sonja}JP> was wondering if Anyone was going to mention that one...
[21:22] <{sonja}JP> <----didnt wanna be the first *g*
[21:22] * ana{Cor} giggles
[21:23] * raven^Ron giggles..
[21:23] <ladyj> i have had someof what you are describing
[21:23] <ladyj> and i want it again
[21:23] <ladyj> now
[21:23] <ladyj> :)
[21:23] * ana{Cor} giggles
[21:23] <raven^Ron> that's sub space ladyj :))
[21:23] <star{M}> :)
[21:23] <ladyj> is seeking the sub space
[21:23] <ana{Cor}> yea.. I'd say that was subspace
[21:23] <ladyj> waht we start doing ?
[21:23] <ladyj> yea
[21:23] <ana{Cor}> "Do it again!!"
[21:23] <ladyj> i mean, id drop efvfeyrthign right now
[21:23] * ana{Cor} giggles
[21:23] <ladyj> yes
[21:24] <ladyj> take me there again
[21:24] <ladyj> i love it
[21:24] <ladyj> its a place ive never been before
[21:24] <raven^Ron> it is different for everyone...and that's another common thing..everyone who has experienced sub space..wants it again..usually ASAP
[21:24] * raven^Ron giggles
[21:24] <ladyj> and jsut felt so 'right'
[21:24] <ladyj> lol yes
[21:25] <star{M}> i experienced something quite strange this past week... Master was giving me a light spank and pulled his hand away. i waited for the slap to come but it didnt, yet I experienced a tingling sensation anyway
[21:25] <star{M}> so weird...
[21:25] <raven^Ron> yes star...my body will do the same thing, it's like every nerve ending is on red alert..tingling with anticipation ..
[21:25] <star{M}> ohyes!
[21:25] <ladyj> uh huh
[21:25] <raven^Ron> For me sub space goes in stages..
[21:25] <Mordax> Hi raven
[21:26] <raven^Ron> first, I start kind of drifting, as if I were going to fall asleep..my whole body relaxes and gets quite warm..
[21:26] <ana{Cor}> oh yea.. Warm.. I have noticed that.. the whole room could be freezing.. and you don't feel it anymore
[21:27] <raven^Ron> next, I lose al sense of time, and physical arousal becomes very acute..I start floating..in some circumstances I am completely aware of every movement the dominant makes, in others I'm not...
[21:27] <raven^Ron> yes ana :))
[21:27] <ana{Cor}> untill you come down.. and then your freezing your ass off.. and shaking
[21:27] <star{M}> good, because we were just thinking of winter coming on *giggles*
[21:27] <raven^Ron> eventually, I reach full sub space, which I call "Zoning"..I don't remember anything being done, I can't think, talking is nonexistent, and all I can focus on is sensation, what I'm feeling and the dominant's voice if he is speaking...
[21:27] <ladyj> yes
[21:27] <star{M}> i dont think the effect will be the same being bound with sweats on! lol!
[21:28] <ana{Cor}> time disapears..
[21:28] <raven^Ron> when I get there, pain itself will cause me to orgasm..and the more pain, the better because it does not hurt..instead, it makes me hotter..
[21:28] <raven^Ron> LOLOL probably not star.. :)
[21:28] <{sonja}JP> that part is what had me freaked out the first time raven
[21:28] * ana{Cor} thinks.. of loosing hours.. thinking it was just 10 minutes
[21:28] <raven^Ron> yes ana..I've done that...
[21:28] <raven^Ron> which part sonja?
[21:28] <{sonja}JP> the more pain - the more wet..
[21:29] <{sonja}JP> i have always been ANTI pain
[21:29] <raven^Ron> oh hell yes..I thought I was a sick twisted pervert the first time sonja...but I learned to accept it, and enjoy it..
[21:29] <{sonja}JP> learning more about myself every day!
[21:29] <raven^Ron> it's a different kind of pain sonja..it's not like stubbing your tow..which just plain hurts..
[21:29] * raven^Ron smiles..
[21:29] <raven^Ron> toe even
[21:30] <ladyj> :)
[21:30] <raven^Ron> Would you say that a sub's mental state at the time can affect their ability to attain sub space?
[21:30] <ana{Cor}> thats a good thing sonja :)
[21:30] <{sonja}JP> right - and Master learned something new the other day as well....
[21:30] <raven^Ron> Ron" oh Hell Yes!
[21:30] <ana{Cor}> yes.. 
[21:30] <raven^Ron> what was that sonja?
[21:30] <{sonja}JP> definitely
[21:30] <star{M}> i have heard, though, and this scares me *snuggles in comfy blanket* that the more pain you need to get the same level of high. true?
[21:30] <raven^Ron> Ron: When I gave a punishment, raven got no fun at all. but a week later, same toy, used same damn way, different mindset, and raven enjoyed it greatly..
[21:30] <raven^Ron> raven blushes
[21:30] <{sonja}JP> yall really wanna know? {light blush}
[21:30] <ana{Cor}> if your comfortable with it sonja, yes..
[21:31] <raven^Ron> not for me so far star...the same amount of pain gets me high, however, I can take alot more pain than I could before...
[21:31] <raven^Ron> go for it sonja, but only if you want to..
[21:31] <star{M}> oh good :) *relief*
[21:32] <raven^Ron> I will warn you though star, what does happen is your likes change..and things that make you go HELL NO!! NEVER!! right now..might become things you beg for later...
[21:32] <{sonja}JP> k - um - we just got a flogger (know it is not really Pain, but still).....Master discovered a BIG thrill of using that while receiving a blowjob - He wont stop talking about it *g*
[21:32] <ana{Cor}> I've been so.. upset.. that it takes Longer to get there.. but.. I wouldn't nexasarily say it's about more pain
[21:32] <raven^Ron> floggers can be painful sonja..
[21:32] <star{M}> lol!!
[21:32] <raven^Ron> COOL sonja!!! personally I love that flogger being used during a blow job myself..
[21:32] * raven^Ron blushes
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> oh - me tooooooooo - which is what He was loving about it
[21:33] <star{M}> then i guess i will just have to take it as it comes and re-evaluate likes and dislikes as we grow in the lifestyle
[21:33] <raven^Ron> Ron PERKS!!
[21:33] <ana{Cor}> good idea.. :)
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> i have developed a serious attachment to that flogger
[21:33] * ana{Cor} laughs
[21:33] <ladyj> lol
[21:33] * Mordax wants a flogger, too
[21:33] <raven^Ron> yup star, that was something I had to learn to do as well, and it scared me..so I figured it might help you if you had a warning of it :)
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> i reccommend one for EVERYBODY
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> LOL
[21:34] <ana{Cor}> floggers are good :)
[21:34] <raven^Ron> I've developed a serious attachment to a crop to the breasts...a crop was something I used to hate
[21:34] <raven^Ron> Ron goes to check out the floggers..<eg>
[21:34] * EZRiser recommends short tails on the flogger .. better accuarcy ..
[21:34] <raven^Ron> Ron: Hmmmmmmmm..wonder if..I have two floggers, can I get two..nevermind
[21:34] <{sonja}JP> see....knew we bought well :-)
[21:34] <raven^Ron> raven thwaps Ron
[21:34] <raven^Ron> Ron: Thanks EZ
[21:34] * ana{Cor} laughs
[21:34] <Mordax> Are your floggers homemade or store bought?
[21:34] * star{M} looke wide-eyed at Master
[21:34] <raven^Ron> mizu made one of mine Mordax...:)
[21:35] * ana{Cor} made one.. :)
[21:35] <raven^Ron> Ron: someone gave me my flogger, but it was store bought..
[21:35] <{sonja}JP> <-------impulse shopper, mine is store-bought
[21:35] * raven^Ron wants ana to make her one..
[21:35] <raven^Ron> ana made a beautiful wide tailed purple flogger!
[21:35] <raven^Ron> it is gorgeous!
[21:35] <raven^Ron> great warm up..
[21:35] * ana{Cor} smiles
[21:35] <raven^Ron> speaking of warm up..do you think a warm up is neccessary to attain sub space?
[21:35] * star{M} doesnt know if shes ready for a flogger yet
[21:36] <raven^Ron> Ron: I think so, it also adds to the eroticism of the moment
[21:36] <{sonja}JP> it does not have to be at all painful with a gentle hand........
[21:36] * Mordax is ready, therefore star is ready
[21:36] <ana{Cor}> it's  not hard.. just takes awhile.. have to get rid of the children for a weekend just to Make it.. 
[21:36] <raven^Ron> start with a soft one star, wide tails, soft leather or suede...more thud than bite..
[21:36] <raven^Ron> not neccessarily MOrdax Sir..
[21:36] <{sonja}JP> and a bit of a sting...
[21:36] <raven^Ron> Ron ships kids off to transelvania
[21:36] <ana{Cor}> YES!
[21:36] <raven^Ron> true ana..
[21:36] <ana{Cor}> ana dances!
[21:36] * ana{Cor} giggles
[21:37] <raven^Ron> raven dances wiht ana..no more kids..we can have some fun..no more kids..get the floggers on the run..no more kids..lets all have some fun..<singing>
[21:37] * ana{Cor} laughs and dances with raven
[21:37] <raven^Ron> ok..that's off topic..
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> i am waiting for the opportunity for Master to be able to flog me till His hand hurts!!! *giggle*
[21:37] <raven^Ron> seriously..do you think warm up is neccessary to atain sub space, and if so, why or why not?
[21:37] <star{M}> i think a warm up sets the mood.. an erotic e-mail or phone call sets the mood for the day!
[21:37] <ana{Cor}> not for everyone, and not in every situation
[21:38] <EZRiser> depends in what kind or intensity of pain the sub is into .. what her thresholds are .. 
[21:38] <ana{Cor}> sometimes, .. the sub just wants.. Now and hard and fast.. not.. three hours to get there
[21:38] <{sonja}JP> i personally need to be aroused - but the email or phone like star said works very well...
[21:38] <raven^Ron> Ron: Mordox, have you practiced with a flogger yet? have you had a chance to use one? Reccomend at least an hour of practice swings, if not alot more, before you actually hit someone with a flogger..
[21:38] <raven^Ron> true EZ..
[21:38] <raven^Ron> true ana
[21:38] <raven^Ron> true as well star
[21:38] <ana{Cor}> but.. it all really depends on the mood, and the people
[21:39] <raven^Ron> yeah..me too usually sonja..but there are times where I don't need to be aroused first because the pain will arouse me..like starting with a crop to the breasts..that is a quick way to send me floating nicely...
[21:39] <raven^Ron> true ana..
[21:39] <raven^Ron> but speaking in generalizations, would warm up be a good idea?
[21:39] <ana{Cor}> yep
[21:39] <{sonja}JP> i think i could start with the flogger right away - but NOT clamps - not yet anyways
[21:39] <star{M}> yes 
[21:40] <ana{Cor}> oooh.. clamps can be very nice sonja
[21:40] <ladyj> yes, even if its just letting me listen to his voice for a bit
[21:40] <raven^Ron> Ron: I think that yes, generaly speaking a warm up is a good idea..
[21:40] <raven^Ron> ok..what about dom space: do you think it exists?
[21:40] <ladyj> now that, i am every MORE clueless :)
[21:40] <EZRiser> yes it does .. 
[21:41] * ana{Cor} waits for the Dom folks to answer
[21:41] <ladyj> even perhaps
[21:41] <EZRiser> and its more than just 5 feet clear in any direction
[21:41] * star{M} looks at Mordax
[21:41] <raven^Ron> Ron: yes, it's sort of an epiphany moment, for while you're playing you get in tune with the sub's experiences at the time. For me it's like riding the sub's high..
[21:41] <star{M}> well?
[21:41] <{sonja}JP> i would say that is probably where Master was Thursday
[21:41] <{sonja}JP> and where He will be tomorrow *giggle*
[21:41] <Mordax> I guess I would need a better definition before I could answer properly
[21:42] <raven^Ron> Ron: There have been times where I thought a sub got to sub space, but wasn't sure until after and I asked and was told yes the sub had gotten to sub space...though, I think that could be due to the newness of learning each other during play...
[21:42] <raven^Ron> LOL sonja
[21:42] <Mordax> star appears to go into a trance, or maybe an altered state of consciousness.  I have not experienced that
[21:42] * ana{Cor} mumbles and returns to her seat
[21:42] <raven^Ron> ok..Mordax, some define dom space as a connection with the sub, can almost feel the physical sensations the sub is feeling, or at the very least read all her body language without a problem, and feel her presence more intensely...
[21:43] <Mordax> Now, under that definition, then, yes, I have.
[21:43] <raven^Ron> honestly, I don't think dom space is so much an altered state of consciousness..I think it's more of a joining of the dom to the sub...but, it can become an altered state if the dom because highly aroused as well...
[21:43] <EZRiser> its definitely being very connected with your sub .. 
[21:43] <raven^Ron> Ron: under that definition, yes I have also
[21:43] <{sonja}JP> Master and i already have this incredible "spiraling" ability - we feed off each other intensely - this really feeds it
[21:44] <raven^Ron> dom/mes can you elaborate on how you felt at that time?
[21:44] <EZRiser> good for you sonja .. <s>
[21:44] <raven^Ron> oh yeah sonja! that, I think, makes it even better..
[21:45] <raven^Ron> Ron: Euphoric, intense arousal, hyper aware of everything from air currents in the room to odors that might be there, the feel of everything is more intense, her skin, the leather of the toy, whatever..everything is just "Right there", almost as if living with your skin off...
[21:45] <{sonja}JP> Jase:  i was off the charts aroused - but also upset that i lost some control - struggled with that.
[21:45] <raven^Ron> raven ponders that skin off thing and shudders eewwww
[21:45] <{sonja}JP> guess who is here.....
[21:45] <ana{Cor}> nerve ending's exposed?
[21:46] <raven^Ron> Do you think dom-space can make it more difficult for a dominant to remain in control and aware of the sub's reactions or possible problems?
[21:46] <raven^Ron> Your master sonja?? <giggle>
[21:46] <raven^Ron> Ron: Oh yes ana!
[21:46] <ana{Cor}> I think thats a major comonality Ron..
[21:46] <{sonja}JP> Jase:  exactly raven
[21:46] <raven^Ron> Ron: How did you lose control Jase? did you just become so aroused that you kept going longer than you should or what?
[21:47] <raven^Ron> yes, I think it is too ana, between dom space and sub space, the intense awareness of everything around you is a commonality between the two...
[21:47] <EZRiser> takes temperment to maintain that control .. and be totally aware of her needs .. and limits .. because it is easy to get carried away
[21:47] <raven^Ron> true EZ..
[21:48] <{sonja}JP> this was a first......but no, He didnt go too long
[21:48] <Mordax> Being so new at this, I think I am hyper-aware of star's reactions right now... Always checking to see if the ropes are too tight, etc.
[21:48] <ana{Cor}> thats good Mordax.. :))
[21:48] <raven^Ron> Ron: ok sonja..just curious as I'm still learning myself..
[21:48] <raven^Ron> that's a good thing to do no matter how long you've been involved in BDSM Mordax :)
[21:48] <{sonja}JP> luckily He runs on automatic pretty well...
[21:49] <raven^Ron> so we all agree that both sub space and dom space exist and are, from the descriptions, pretty nice...does something happen when one comes down from these "highs"?
[21:49] <raven^Ron> that's good sonja :)))
[21:49] <{sonja}JP> a nap? *lol*
[21:49] <Mordax> sleep?
[21:49] <EZRiser> depending on the intensity of the scene .. yes .. 
[21:49] <raven^Ron> for me, when I zone completely, after I come down I get almost a depression, can be cranky, or feel out of sorts for a little while...
[21:49] <ana{Cor}> shaking, sometimes fear, mostly from the extream lack of control, disorenentation..
[21:49] <raven^Ron> well, after the sleep..<giggle.
[21:49] <raven^Ron> yes, there is that too ana..
[21:50] <EZRiser> many subs need  .. require .. cuddling ... or aftercare in the coming down process
[21:50] <EZRiser> others I have known have realized depression the next day
[21:50] <raven^Ron> Ron: Wll, I've noticed that afterwards there's a bit more openness in the emotional context, talking is easier and we tend to get mushy/romantic
[21:50] <star{M}> i enjoy cuddling after wards :)
[21:50] * ana{Cor} smiles
[21:50] <Mordax> I haven't noticed any depression in star.  Quite the opposite, actually. 
[21:50] <raven^Ron> I like the cuddling while i"m coming down..and sometimes i need more than the cuddling, I need someone to talk me down...
[21:51] <raven^Ron> sometimes I get a mental high that lasts for a day or two instead of the cranky thing...
[21:51] <raven^Ron> Ron: What have you noticed Mordax?
[21:51] * LAR^ has often had to talk elle down a bit, help her remember where she is and center. IT is an incredibly vulnerable time
[21:51] * star{M} pulls ladyj on the sofa next to her. wb :)
[21:51] <ana{Cor}> the screwed up part.. is when you get the opposite effect then you were expecting
[21:51] <raven^Ron> raven is not sure what makes the difference between the afteraffects for her...
[21:51] <LAR^> Where for me, when I am in Dom Space I feel invulnerable
[21:52] <raven^Ron> Yes Lar!!! it is very much a vulnerable time..
[21:52] <raven^Ron> oh yes ana..
[21:52] <Mordax> star seems to be on an emotional high for a day or two, Ron.
[21:52] <raven^Ron> ROn: I agree Lar..it's a very powerful rush and euphoric
[21:52] <raven^Ron> Ron: like nothing can go wrong, Lar
[21:52] <raven^Ron> Ron: ahh, ok..makes sense to me
[21:53] <raven^Ron> Ron: unless of cousre you make that one wrong hit and then she comes down instantly and you say to yourself oh fuck, I screwed up big time!! (to Lar)
[21:53] <LAR^> Ron: Very true. Especially since when I hit it I have a very intense focus
[21:53] <LAR^> ROFL
[21:53] <raven^Ron> Ron: me too Lar
[21:53] <raven^Ron> raven giggles
[21:53] <raven^Ron> raven: so, would a "wrong" hit bring a sub down quickly even if the sub is a masochist/pain slut ?
[21:54] <raven^Ron> Ron: I guess it could
[21:54] <ana{Cor}> a shock, I would think, is different then.. enjoyable pain
[21:55] <raven^Ron> raven: it does for me, and I've had a partner purposely use that to bring me down a little so I can verbally tell him I was ok...
[21:55] <raven^Ron> I agree ana..
[21:55] <raven^Ron> Ron: Gerry, have you ever felt domme-space?
[21:56] <Gerry> No I havent, intense feeling but not the space
[21:57] <raven^Ron> Ron: OK, was just curious. So like sub space, it's different from person to person, that's cool..
[21:57] <raven^Ron> ok, it was mentioned earlier that sub space can be achieved without physical interaction..can the same be said for dom-space?
[21:58] <Mordax> If Dom space is the connection with the sub, then I do not see how it can be achieved without the physical interaction
[21:59] <{sonja}JP> Master doesnt know, but He is ready to try
[21:59] <raven^Ron> Ron: not that I've experienced yet, though there are times I can feel dominance more intensely, or feel more dominant when a sub acts in a very submissive manner
[21:59] * Qryz waves hihi to everyone, snogs as needed and slips quietly into a corner
[21:59] * ana{Cor} whispers.. we don't Have corners sweetie
[21:59] <raven^Ron> no corners here Qryz..it's a round room :)
[21:59] * Qryz^mizu giggles...oops I forgot!
[21:59] <raven^Ron> no problem Qryz :)
[21:59] <Qryz^mizu> so much for trying to be quiet!
[21:59] <{sonja}JP> a round room? - i want one
[22:00] * ana{Cor} giggles
[22:00] <LAR^> Qyrz and mizu together? OH GOODNES< Cali will NEVER be the same now
[22:00] <raven^Ron> the question on the table Qryz is, can sub space or dom space be achieved without the physical play?
[22:00] <{sonja}JP> brings to mind a castle tower room
[22:00] * LAR^ has never reached dom space without an intense scene
[22:00] <Qryz^mizu> absolutely yes - the power exchange is what creates the space, however it is achieved
[22:00] <EZRiser> In conversation with a sub .. if that dialogue takes her over the edge .. then that may apply .. but its no where the same as the physical interaction
[22:01] <Qryz^mizu> mizu: needs physical scene for space
[22:01] <raven^Ron> Qryz, you don't think the endorphines released during pain play affects the sub's ability to go into sub space?
[22:01] <ana{Cor}> sonja, LnR is described as a castle.. :)
[22:01] <Qryz^mizu> mizu: hell no!
[22:01] <Qryz^mizu> sub space can be achieved by wrapping bonds around a sub's wrists
[22:01] <raven^Ron> for me to get full sub space, I need the pain play. However, I can achieve a floating or intensely submissive emotional space without pain play...but I don't think that is the same..
[22:02] <{sonja}JP> hmmmmmm - correct me if i am wrong - but the dividing line seems to be male/female as opposed to Dom(me)/sub - as far as needing the physical(males) and not(females)
[22:02] <raven^Ron> for some subs, yes it can Qryz..
[22:02] <raven^Ron> interesting observation sonja, I've never noticed that before...
[22:02] <Qryz^mizu> as usual...men always need physical and women respond more to mental (okay, in general {being poked by mizu who says its not a true statement})
[22:03] <{sonja}JP> right - in general...
[22:03] <{sonja}JP> you let him poke you? *giggle*
[22:03] <Qryz^mizu> mizu says that women need physical as much as men because then women accuse men of not wanting to cuddle or show affection blah blah blah
[22:03] <ana{Cor}> woman need.. different forms of physical interaction
[22:03] <ana{Cor}> and so do some  men
[22:03] <raven^Ron> I don't know Qryz..don't men get aroused or such from visual things such as pictures or the way thier partner looks in certain outfits?
[22:03] <ana{Cor}> some men need cuddling as much as women do
[22:03] <raven^Ron> I agree with that ana..
[22:03] <{sonja}JP> and Master needs cuddling as much as i
[22:04] <Qryz^mizu> i think *IN GENERAL* men are more physical/visual and women are more mental/verbal
[22:04] <Qryz^mizu> *whew* mizu agrees with me!
[22:04] <raven^Ron> ok.. :)
[22:04] <{sonja}JP> yeah! - me tooo Qryz
[22:04] <raven^Ron> I know I enjoy the verbal setting of a mood during a scene, and often the things that are said can/will start me on my way to sub space...
[22:04] * ana{Cor} giggles
[22:04] * star{M} agrees with Qryz. (hello, btw to you both :)
[22:04] <ana{Cor}> that works for me Qryz^mizu
[22:05] <Qryz^mizu> mizu says its because men are hunters and key into visuals more and woe GLEHCH ELCH hey he's tickliing me!!!!
[22:05] * Qryz^mizu waves at dragn avoiding tickles
[22:05] <raven^Ron> Ron: I think it depends on the people involved because for me, the verbal can affect me..
[22:06] <raven^Ron> Ron: but I think that men do require a bit more physical interaction to actually achieve the "space" than women do..
[22:06] <Qryz^mizu> for instance, i think its easier to train women to come on command than men - but that's also physiologic
[22:06] <raven^Ron> raven: I don't know ...I've never achieved full sub space without the physical..but that doesn't mean it isn't possible..
[22:06] <star{M}> i have noticed that my sensations are heightened since Master started talking...he NEVER used to say anything. :)
[22:06] <{sonja}JP> me either raven, but i see the potential
[22:07] <raven^Ron> does the verbal increase the intensity of the prospective "spaces"?
[22:07] <Mordax> It does for star.  
[22:07] <ana{Cor}> I think so
[22:07] <{sonja}JP> for me, it depends on the "words"
[22:07] <Qryz^mizu> i think there's degrees....if you define subspace as the floaty away-ness vs 'feeling submissive' when spoken to, then i would be more inclined to say that you do need physical to achieve 'subspace'
[22:08] <raven^Ron> Ron: I dont know if it heightens the intensity, but I do think verbal brings it on more easily because you get that mental interaction going..
[22:08] <raven^Ron> Ron: Good point Qryz, we kind of got away from the definition of sub space that was set earlier..
[22:09] <raven^Ron> Ron plans on flogging raven later for letting things drift too far...
[22:09] <raven^Ron> raven: hey! it's still on topic!
[22:09] <lil`dragn> lucky raven....<wink>
[22:09] <{sonja}JP> oh - that's it reward her :-)
[22:09] <raven^Ron> Ron: yeah but it's as good an excuse as any. and what was that we were saying about floggers earlier??
[22:09] <raven^Ron> raven giggles
[22:09] * ana{Cor} giggles
[22:10] * Mordax is stopping by floggers R us on the way home from work tomorrow
[22:10] <star{M}> oh no.. not back to floggers!
[22:10] <raven^Ron> Hey I think a reward is in order for running these discussions as well as one is in order for everyone who attends and participates..
[22:10] * LAR^ will show Ron his puppy flogger next weekend
[22:10] * ana{Cor} giggles
[22:10] <ana{Cor}> whats wrong with floggers???
[22:10] <{sonja}JP> but they are sooooooooooooooo much fun
[22:10] <raven^Ron> ROn laughs ..
[22:10] <ladyj> :)
[22:10] * Qryz^mizu likes to have a flogger in every room...makes it smell like leather mmmmmmmm
[22:10] <raven^Ron> ok ok..back to topic...
[22:10] <{sonja}JP> and a chicken in every pot Qryz?
[22:11] <raven^Ron> does the physical health of each person affect the ability to enter their respective "space"?
[22:11] <{sonja}JP> sorry - bad joke
[22:11] <Qryz^mizu> pot in every chicken...mmm mmm good
[22:11] <raven^Ron> raven likes that idea...goingalone..play..<eg>
[22:11] <raven^Ron> Ron: I don't think so raven!
[22:11] <raven^Ron> raven giggles..gotcha Ron..
[22:11] <raven^Ron> Ron: yes I think the physical health affects it..
[22:11] <star{M}> yes, i think it does... 
[22:11] <raven^Ron> Ron: if someone has the flu (for example) they don't want anyone doing anything most likely
[22:12] <raven^Ron> LOLOL Ron..true..
[22:12] <{sonja}JP> but - it works great on headaches
[22:12] <star{M}> i was sick last week and not up to more than cuddles and chicken soup
[22:12] <raven^Ron> yes it does sonja!!!!!
[22:12] <Mordax> When star was sick last week, she wasn't in much shape for anything
[22:12] <raven^Ron> raven tries to hide that statement from Ron..
[22:12] <raven^Ron> I can understand that star
[22:12] <raven^Ron> Ron: WOooHooo!! thanks sonja!
[22:12] <raven^Ron> raven thwaps Ron again..easy Sir..
[22:12] <{sonja}JP> i made the mistake of outright telling Him (Master)
[22:12] <ladyj> uh buoy....:) 
[22:12] <Mordax> However, she kinda forgot who was the sub and who was the Dom.  "Get me this, get me that..."
[22:12] <{sonja}JP> sorry raven....    :-(
[22:13] <{sonja}JP> your welcome Ron
[22:13] <{sonja}JP> :-)
[22:13] <EZRiser> hhmmmm .. am I alone then in getting horny when I am sick ?
[22:13] * ana{Cor} giggles
[22:13] <raven^Ron> raven: LOL sonja..actually, it wouldn't bother me too much..specially if sub space cures migraines.. :)
[22:13] <ana{Cor}> no EZ..
[22:13] <ana{Cor}> I think it has to do with to darn much time in bed..
[22:13] <raven^Ron> no EZ..I don't get anywhere near horny if I am really sick..
[22:13] * star{M} hangs head in shame
[22:13] <{sonja}JP> never tried it on an actual migraine - cause i cant move with one of those
[22:13] <star{M}> i didnt feel good...
[22:13] * Qryz^mizu gets horny on her period .... sorry if that's TMI
[22:13] <raven^Ron> could be ana..but for me, it's that overall feeling of BLAH!
[22:13] <star{M}> lol!
[22:14] <{sonja}JP> same here Qryz!!!!!
[22:14] * ana{Cor} giggles.. yes.. well.. i get bored when I'm sick
[22:14] <raven^Ron> Mordax. there are times when a dom serves a sub...the sub being sick is one of thsoe times..
[22:14] <ana{Cor}> and then.. my imaginantion starts working.. 
[22:14] <raven^Ron> hence the give and take in any relationship..it has to exist in D/s as well...least I think so..
[22:14] <Qryz^mizu> thank goodness - mizu thinks its just another example of my being a nympho!
[22:14] <raven^Ron> star, nothing to be ashamed of and personally I think it is great that Mordax took good care of you :)
[22:14] <{sonja}JP> combine a period with a full moon and good weather and Master starts worrying about His sleep time :-)
[22:14] <raven^Ron> Can one achieve the "space" without sexual intercourse taking place? (meaning actualy penetration, not blow jobs or such)
[22:15] * Qryz^mizu peals with laughter...yahooo sonja!!
[22:15] <raven^Ron> Ron: Yes, space usually happens during the play and sex does not always occur with or after play
[22:15] * Qryz^mizu nodsnods...yup sex is secondary
[22:15] <Qryz^mizu> mizu says i just go into fuckspace
[22:15] <raven^Ron> umm..Ron...I've gone into sub space from sex..without pain play..so I have to say that either one can do it for me..
[22:15] <{sonja}JP> ROFLMAO
[22:15] <raven^Ron> LOL Qryz
[22:15] <raven^Ron> Ron: My bad raven, I wasn't thinking of that..
[22:16] <raven^Ron> ROFL Qryz
[22:16] <raven^Ron> Ron laughs
[22:16] <raven^Ron> mizu, Ron does that too..
[22:16] * ana{Cor} blinks.. giggles.. and almost spits coffee on the keyboard
[22:16] <raven^Ron> LOLOLOLOL
[22:16] <Mordax> I see them as separate actions.
[22:16] * Qryz^mizu dccs a towel to ana
[22:16] <raven^Ron> careful ana...keyboards don't like coffee..
[22:16] <raven^Ron> Ron: dcc's a case of viagra to mizu...you're gonna need it bud!
[22:16] <ana{Cor}> thanks Qryz^mizu(dunno who it was.. )
[22:17] <raven^Ron> how so Mordax?
[22:17] <ana{Cor}> i caught it raven.. :)
[22:17] <raven^Ron> just teasing ana.. :)
[22:17] <Qryz^mizu> mizu: giggles
[22:17] <ana{Cor}> I know raven.. :)
[22:17] <raven^Ron> whoops..nevermind Mordax..I read that wrong...thought you said you don't see play and sex as different actions..
[22:17] <ana{Cor}> brb
[22:17] <raven^Ron> raven thinks she needs glasses..or a third puter so Ron can type for himself..
[22:18] <raven^Ron> can anyone think of something about these spaces that we haven't touched upon?
[22:18] <Qryz^mizu> aftercare?
[22:18] <raven^Ron> Ron: aftercare being terribly important
[22:18] <raven^Ron> ok..we touched upon it, but lets go into more depth..
[22:18] <Mordax> That's why star and I have separate computers, raven.  I got tired of fighting her for the keyboard
[22:19] <raven^Ron> why is aftercare important?
[22:19] <star{M}> lol!
[22:19] <raven^Ron> we have two computers Mordax..ana is on the other one..we need a third so Ron gets his own keyboard..<giggle>
[22:19] <Qryz^mizu> cuz the cuddling is the good part!
[22:19] <raven^Ron> what about possibly preventing the sub from going into shock Qryz?
[22:19] <raven^Ron> cuddling is a good thing too :)
[22:19] <{sonja}JP> Master once had to leave right afterwards........i almost did go into shock - it was horrible
[22:20] <star{M}> its important to Master to know that what he did didnt exceed my limits and met my expectations :)
[22:20] <raven^Ron> sub space can be dangerous for the sub...so would it be good to say the dom should be aware of what the signs of shock are and how to treat them?
[22:20] * Qryz^mizu nodsnods...you have to be there until they're back to earth and everything is okay - I've seen it take several hours...
[22:20] <{sonja}JP> but lesson learned - do not stretch play until the last minute
[22:20] <raven^Ron> it's taken me over 8 hours one time Qryz...
[22:20] <raven^Ron> yes sonja..a very important lesson
[22:20] * ana{Cor} offered to let Ron type tonight.. but .. he says no.. so.. raven types :P
[22:20] <{sonja}JP> i cried for an hour
[22:21] <raven^Ron> so..what are the signs of shock? or signs that the sub needs special aftercare? and what are the special aftercare neccesities to prevent shock?
[22:21] <raven^Ron> I know ana..so :P 
[22:21] <Qryz^mizu> the worst I've seen is at a dungeon in a barn - it was very cold and people were turning blue and the scenes were intense...there was a lot of aftercare and lots of very observant DMs wandering around to make sure everyone was okay...
[22:21] <raven^Ron> I've done that sonja...was a long time ago though...
[22:21] <star{M}> wow... then perhaps i havent gotten that deep into sub space yet
[22:21] <raven^Ron> that is impressive Qryz..shows a great deal of caring for the sub's well being..
[22:22] <raven^Ron> Ron: Short shallow breaths, pin point eyes, trembling, unable to focus, being cold, incoherent, sweating can be part of it, flushed..are signs of shock..
[22:23] <raven^Ron> Ron: keep the sub warm, elevate their feet somewhat, talk to them, cuddling or physical contact can be very good...force sweet fluids to replace body fluids lost, like sugar water or gatorade..
[22:23] <ana{Cor}> yes.. but.. Ron.. we already said.. coming down often.. for alot of people.. includes being cold.. trembling.. or not aware of the time thats passed.. 
[22:23] <raven^Ron> Qryz, are those correct?
[22:23] <ana{Cor}> how do you know if it's just.. normal coming down, or shock?
[22:23] <ladyj> i have to go yall, thank you very much, and ill be back
[22:23] <raven^Ron> Ron: yes ana, and sometimes those can be signs of shock..
[22:24] <Qryz^mizu> fast heartbeat, kinda thready feeling as well...if you can tell
[22:24] <ladyd420> gee, i guess i must experience shock a lot then ;0)
[22:24] <raven^Ron> wouldn't someone who is greatly aroused have a fast hearbeat Qryz?
[22:24] <ana{Cor}> I know.. I'm not disagreeing.. just asking.. how do you tell.. if it's just.. normal.. or.. a bad reaction
[22:24] <Qryz^mizu> gatorade probably is best - sweet fluids can cause a crash a few minutes later when they wear off
[22:25] <Qryz^mizu> yes but aroused is a fast strong heartbeat, and shokcy is fast and thready 
[22:25] <raven^Ron> Ron: I know ana..I would just treat as shock anyway, better safe than sorry..keep em warm, keep talking to them, keep cuddling..that's half the battle right there...you're halfway there if it is shock..if not, you just appear romantic and concerned with sub's wellbeing, either way..good thing
[22:25] <raven^Ron> AHhhhhhhh..ok Qryz...good point..thank you!! :))
[22:25] <raven^Ron> Ron: Thank you Qryz..
[22:25] * ana{Cor} giggles
[22:25] <ladyd420> hmmmm
[22:25] <ana{Cor}> makes sense to me Ron..
[22:25] <Mordax> I guess that's where knowing your sub is important.  To be able to recognize what is abnormal for him/her
[22:25] <Qryz^mizu> in a sense, it is shock - a shock to the system, just from good stuff rather than bad...so you would treat it the same way
[22:26] <Qryz^mizu> and of course, knowing any medical conditions as well that may play a role in play as well as aftercare...
[22:26] <raven^Ron> please describe what a thready heartbeat feels/sounds like Qryz..for those who don't know the difference, like Ron?
[22:26] <raven^Ron> and ..me :)
[22:26] <{sonja}JP> and me
[22:26] <raven^Ron> You're right Qryz..sub space itself can be a shock to the system...
[22:26] <{sonja}JP> specially the first time or two
[22:26] <raven^Ron> Excellent point on prior medical conditions Qryz..like asthma :)
[22:26] <Qryz^mizu> okay feel your pulse now...it should be a fairly strong surge each time
[22:26] <raven^Ron> Ron: Good point Mordax, knowing who your sub is..
[22:27] <ladyd420> what an excellent shock...{sigh}
[22:27] <raven^Ron> yes..it is quite strong..
[22:27] <raven^Ron> true ladyd420
[22:27] * ana{Cor} puts her fingers to her wrist
[22:27] <raven^Ron> ROn puts his fingers to his wrist..
[22:27] <Qryz^mizu> it can be fast, and still feel the same way...but if it feels weaker or less surgy, kinda...ummmm....fluttery/butterfly-ish that's thready (sorry i can't describe it beter)
[22:27] <ana{Cor}> yep.. beat.. beat.. beat..
[22:27] <ladyd420> :)
[22:28] <raven^Ron> Ron: Thank you Qryz, I understand the difference now..
[22:28] <raven^Ron> thanks Qryz..I do too!
[22:28] <Qryz^mizu> glad i could help!
[22:28] * raven^Ron laughs as I take the kb!......
[22:28] <star{M}> good description, Qryz :)
[22:28] * raven^Ron sighs....I cant find my heartbeat......I wondr if I and a Zombie Dommy
[22:29] <{sonja}JP> lol
[22:29] <raven^Ron> Whoops....ravens back
[22:29] * Qryz^mizu giggles
[22:29] <ladyd420> i don't see the difference...it's hard to tell when one is there...is losing time a shock thing?
[22:29] <raven^Ron> you found your heartbeat Ron..
[22:29] * Qryz^mizu nodsnods yup sonja ah is!
[22:29] <raven^Ron> ok..a regular pulse is strong..steady..a shocky pulse would be fainter, harder to find..not as "strong" feeling..not as "solid" feeling...right Qryz?
[22:29] <{sonja}JP> cool :-)
[22:29] * Qryz^mizu nodsnods yup raven^Ron
[22:30] <raven^Ron> then it stands to reason you may have to get the pulse in the neck (major artery) rather than the wrist..
[22:30] <raven^Ron> what sonja? I saw your ? posted
[22:30] <raven^Ron> I'm not sure if losing time is a shock thing ladyd420
[22:30] <Qryz^mizu> yup...NOW THEN but you never ever ever EVER feel both sides of the neck at once...that's breath play, cuts off blood to the head and is generally not good
[22:30] <raven^Ron> good reminder Qryz :)
[22:31] * Qryz^mizu nodsnods yup raven^Ron that's right!
[22:31] <raven^Ron> Hi Guil..we're discussing sub space and just discussed shock and how to tell difference between sub space and if a sub is in shock..
[22:31] <raven^Ron> is there another way, besides the pulse of the sub, to tell if the sub is in shock Qryz?
[22:32] <{sonja}JP> oh - ok
[22:32] <^Guil> hmm...good topic...
[22:32] <raven^Ron> Ron: pale, cold, sweaty, lips or under eyes turning bluish (though could be a side effect, bad one, of breath play)...
[22:32] <raven^Ron> yup..I thought so Guil :)
[22:32] <EZRiser> breathing irregularities .. color and feel of the skin .. I would think
[22:32] <raven^Ron> Ron: if bluish appears, it's time to take the gag out..anyway!..
[22:33] <{sonja}JP> lol
[22:33] <Qryz^mizu> Ron's description was good - also dizziness, cold and sweaty (means that all the blood is being redirected to the center of the body where its really needed)
[22:33] <raven^Ron> raven giggles..
[22:33] <^Guil> .....once played with a woman who would go so deep she'd fall asleep in the middle of a scene...scared the bejesus out of me...
[22:33] <ladyd420> heehee
[22:33] <{sonja}JP> what about talking? - Master always Makes me talk to Him afterwards....
[22:33] <raven^Ron> go to sleep Guil??
[22:33] <{sonja}JP> seems fairly intense about it.
[22:33] <^Guil> that or pass out....
[22:33] <raven^Ron> Ron: yeah that's odd..the body sends all the blood to the torso when in shock..it's like the body says..screw the brain, we don't need it!
[22:34] <ladyd420> wow, can't imagine falling asleep in the middle...
[22:34] <{sonja}JP> asleep? - um - that is -um- never mind
[22:34] <raven^Ron> I've passed out in a scene before..but that was the goal of the scene..
[22:34] <ana{Cor}> sleep??
[22:34] <ana{Cor}> was it.. normal sleep?
[22:34] <raven^Ron> Ron: making them talk is a good good thing sonja..
[22:34] <^Guil> but become totally non-responsive...not shocky...I know enough first aid to tell she wasn't in shock (besides we hadn't played that hard...was mostly headplay..
[22:34] <raven^Ron> sometimes I can't talk sonja, so I require the dom talk to me, so I can focus on his voice and come down slowly..
[22:34] <{sonja}JP> see....and here i thought He just loved the sound of my voice *g*
[22:34] <^Guil> no...not normal sleep...
[22:35] <{sonja}JP> that is what i think He is doing
[22:35] <raven^Ron> ahhhhh..a trance like thing Guil?
[22:35] <^Guil> yeah....
[22:35] <raven^Ron> Ron: he does love the sound of your voice sonja :)
[22:35] <raven^Ron> ok..can snapping a sub out of sub space be a bad thing?
[22:37] <raven^Ron> Ron; It might be neccessary to bring them down quickly if they are starting to go into shock or heading into a bad place so you can start that aftercare..
[22:38] <raven^Ron> couldn't the shock of being snapped out of sub space cause the sub to go into shock? wouldn't it just be better to stop the space inducing stimulus and start aftercare, bringing the sub down slowly?
[22:38] <{sonja}JP> i could see that, Ron - medically speaking
[22:38] <raven^Ron> Ron: If they're hyperventilating you don't have time for that..
[22:38] <raven^Ron> raven: true..
[22:39] <ana{Cor}> yes I think so raven.. slowly..
[22:39] <raven^Ron> But other than a medical emergency (already in shock, hyperventilating, asthma attack or such) I would think it would be safer for the sub physically, if he/she is brought down slowly....
[22:39] <raven^Ron> Ron: very true raven..and a lot more fun!
[22:39] <star{M}> you would want to come down quickly if life-threatening events (bleeding, not breathing) were happening wouldnt you?
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> but, i think (cause i dont KNOW) that snapping them out when they werent actually in shock would be bad
[22:39] <raven^Ron> raven: you are a wonderful romantic Ron :)
[22:40] <{sonja}JP> add that to the list Ron :-)
[22:40] <raven^Ron> yes star...under those conditions..definitely...but then you must be prepared to possibly treat shock at the same time as treating (or calling 911) for the medical emergency..
[22:41] <raven^Ron> and star, some people don't mind certain amounts of blood during play...I wouldn't stop a scene just because I started bleeding a little..however, were I to bleed alot, heavily, or from an odd place (like the ears or nose) then hell yes, stop it right now..
[22:41] * Mordax wonders how you would explain that to the paramedics
[22:41] <raven^Ron> Ron: it's added to the list sonja :)
[22:41] <{sonja}JP> LOL!@!!!!
[22:41] <{sonja}JP> *g*
[22:41] <raven^Ron> Ron: I wouldn't worry about the paramedics at all..they've seen it all, and my main focus would be the sub's well being..
[22:41] <raven^Ron> LOL
[22:41] <raven^Ron> the truth, unforunately Mordax..or they couldn't treat the sub properly..
[22:41] <{sonja}JP> that's true Ron - they have seen it all - and then some
[22:42] <star{M}> oh sheesh... how embarrassing in this little town though...
[22:42] <raven^Ron> however, the truth could be, we were playing around during making love and she/he went into shock..(or whatever the emergency is)
[22:42] <ana{Cor}> oh comeon.. it might be fun to watch the paramedics freak in a non-dangerious situation
[22:42] <Mordax> We are just to the left of vanilla, so we have not gotten anywhere near danger levels
[22:42] <raven^Ron> they don't need to know someone was being whipped, flogged, whatever..unless of course, there are marks that need explanation..
[22:42] <raven^Ron> LOLOL ana..
[22:42] <raven^Ron> Ron: you are evil ana!
[22:42] <ana{Cor}> me???
[22:42] * ana{Cor} isn't evil.. I prefer.. creative..
[22:42] <{sonja}JP> ooooohhhh ana - after discussion - i have a story to tell you :-)
[22:43] <raven^Ron> everything we do Mordax, is dangerous....that is very important to remember..
[22:43] <ana{Cor}> okay sonja.. :)))
[22:43] <raven^Ron> Ron: yes you...inoocent little ana..NOT!
[22:43] * ana{Cor} laughs
[22:43] <ana{Cor}> I'm not innocent
[22:43] <raven^Ron> ok..any other topics/threads we need to touch upon?
[22:43] <star{M}> or the rope marks? *giggles*
[22:43] <raven^Ron> yes star..<giggle>
[22:43] <ana{Cor}> I'm sweet, and kind, and damn cute, but.. I give up on innocent
[22:43] <raven^Ron> raven: no shit ana! LOLOL
[22:43] <raven^Ron> Ron: always use padded cuffs..:)
[22:43] <{sonja}JP> lol!
[22:43] <{sonja}JP> i gave up on innocent years ago
[22:44] <raven^Ron> Ron: if you can't afford them, nylon with fixed loops that can be stretched over the hands and will not cut off circulation, do not leave rope burns..
[22:44] <star{M}> Master wont give up until the knots are just right and not too constrictive
[22:44] <raven^Ron> ROn: they also allow the sub to slip out in case something happens to the dom..like oh a heart attack or such..
[22:45] <star{M}> oh gosh.. hadnt thought of that...
[22:45] <Mordax> Now *thats* something that I had not thought about
[22:45] <raven^Ron> Ron: ^5 Mordax..never take the chance on damaging your lady or sub
[22:46] <raven^Ron> well..it's 10:45, the discussion has been going for almost 2 hours...is there anything someone would like to specifically address?
[22:46] <{sonja}JP> there are soooooo many things to think about!
[22:46] <raven^Ron> yes there are sonja! certainly keeps us all busy..<giggle>
[22:46] * ana{Cor} will brb
[22:46] <star{M}> fortunately have r/t friend who knows that i could call in an emergencey providing i could get to the phone!
[22:46] <raven^Ron> that's great star :)
[22:47] <star{M}> well, i certainly understand more about this mysterious "sub space" i have been reading about
[22:47] <raven^Ron> I'm glad star... :)
[22:47] <EZRiser> its bed time for me good ppl .. the morning will come all too early and soon .. enjoyed it .. 
[22:47] <star{M}> its good to get a lot of opinions.. thats why i like coming here! :)
[22:47] <raven^Ron> Ron: That is the whole point of the discussion :)
[22:47] <raven^Ron> Ron: Nite EZ :)
[22:47] <raven^Ron> raven: Night EZ, Sir..sleep well :)
[22:47] <{sonja}JP> me tooo star
[22:48] <raven^Ron> I'm glad star :)