Presents:
BDSM Discussion 31
Abuse
In BDSM
All Comments Posted Here With Permission Of The Participants
[20:59] *
raven^Ron says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions
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[20:59] <raven^Ron> you must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave. Legal age being 18 or 21 depending on your location
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[21:00] <raven^Ron> I wish to ask that people please keep in mind how fast the screen will scroll when everyone speaks at once..so lets try to have some consideration and not go too fast..
[21:01] <raven^Ron> also..if a discussion degrades into a semantics argument, and we can not agree to disagree, I will end the discussion..
[21:01] <raven^Ron> everyone agree?
[21:01] <ana{Cor}> yes ma'am
[21:01] <mizu> yea
[21:01] <{sonja}JP> yes mam
[21:02] * LadySkye nods to both
[21:02] * Roamer` thinks about disagreeing with the wording of the final point ...then chuckles ......
[21:02] <raven^Ron> okey dokey..here we go then.. :)
[21:02] <lil`dragn> LOL
[21:02] <{sonja}JP> ma'am..even
[21:02] <raven^Ron> LOL LS
[21:02] * Qryz agrees with both
[21:02] <raven^Ron> tonight's topic is Abuse in BDSM..let's start with this..
[21:02] <raven^Ron> do you think that abuse can occur in a BDSM relationship?
[21:02] <{sonja}JP> yep
[21:02] <{sonja}JP> easy question - whats next - LOL
[21:03] <ana{Cor}> yes
[21:03] * Qryz shyly, tentatively and meekly sits in the yes corner
[21:03] <LadySkye> very much so
[21:03] <Corgan> absolutely
[21:03] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: i think it can, thoguh to be honest i have never witnessed any directly
[21:03] <lil`dragn> yes....there is always someone who is ready to abuse something.....
[21:03] <mizu> yes, easy to mix the two
[21:03] <{sonja}JP> sorry - little sarcasm there
[21:03] <EZRiser> it can occur in what starts out in a BDSM relationship .. but then the relationship quickly deteriorates
[21:03] * ana{Cor} likes bunnies
[21:03] <ana{Cor}> woops
[21:03] <EZRiser> and becomes just an abusive relationship
[21:04] <{sonja}JP> goes to why Honor in a Dom is so very important....
[21:04] <raven^Ron> I believe abuse can exist..though it would be difficult to see it becaue the nature of the relationship is giving up of control..
[21:04] <raven^Ron> yes sonja, I agree about the honor..
[21:04] <Roamer`> brb
[21:04] * LAR^ has certainly seen many cases of it. But I have a question. If a person is in a D/s relationship with somebody who was abused as a child. And that person seeks D/s as a way of "Fixing" themselves, is it abuse?
[21:04] <raven^Ron> Ron: brb
[21:05] <LAR^> Sorry, where the sub was abused, and now seeks a Dominant to get what they never received as a child.
[21:05] <raven^Ron> it wouldn't be abuse if the person knew what they were getting in to, however, using D/s to heal past abuse is a tricky thing...it does not always work..and can in some cases, cause more harm than good..
[21:05] <raven^Ron> Ron returns..
[21:06] <mizu> ohhh yea
[21:06] * Qryz objects to the theory that there are more abused people in D/s than in 'nilla life - i feel that the nature of increased communication makes people more open and liable to talk about everything, including abuse
[21:06] <raven^Ron> some subs do that Lar, seek a dom to give them the love acceptance and such they did not get as a child..however, this can backfire if the person does not develop their own sense of self esteem and relies on the dom to feel good aobut themselves..
[21:06] <raven^Ron> I agree with that Qryz...
[21:07] <Qryz> but i just don't believe there's more abuse in D/s, no matter how many people state they were abused...
[21:07] <raven^Ron> Ron: It would have to be a damned good dom to help that person heal..
[21:07] <{sonja}JP> like a dom with a phychiatric degree..........
[21:07] <raven^Ron> I agree Ron..and will add, that in my opinion, a good dom who finds himself wiht a sub who is recovering from childhood abuse, would support the sub in finding professional help..and be an augmentation of that professional help, not a replacement for it..
[21:08] <raven^Ron> Ron: LOL sonja
[21:08] <raven^Ron> good point sonja :)
[21:08] <raven^Ron> I don't believe there is more abuse in D/s Qryz..but I do agree that it can occur more easily in a D/s relationship..and with the advent of the internet, more abusive people are finding their way into D/s becaue they can hide their abuse behind D/s for a while..
[21:09] <raven^Ron> hiya starpearl...wb!! and thanks for the email! :)
[21:09] <Qryz> Therapists NEVER treat their own...so it may be useful to have someone who understands what's going on, but they should never get into the codependency of trying to 'fix' someone
[21:09] <raven^Ron> Ron: Qryz, no they shouldn't ..I agree with you..
[21:10] <raven^Ron> starpearl..we are two people on same keyboard, just so you know..it is ravenshad and Ron (AAhhzz)..
[21:10] <Qryz> agreed raven^Ron - D/s can definitely hide abuse
[21:10] <raven^Ron> what kinds of abuse occur in BDSM?
[21:10] <Roamer`> emotional
[21:10] <ana{Cor}> mental abuse..
[21:10] <Roamer`> mental
[21:10] <raven^Ron> Ron: Physical
[21:10] <{sonja}JP> same kinds that occur in any relationship....
[21:11] <raven^Ron> ok..lets touch on physical...
[21:11] <ana{Cor}> sexual even
[21:11] <Roamer`> {sonja}JP: exactly
[21:11] <{sonja}JP> REALLY
[21:11] <raven^Ron> in many BDSM relationship, there is s/m or b/d play...so how does on differentiate physical abuse from b/d or s/m?
[21:11] <starpearl> yes, i thought so, raven^Ron :) Hello, Sir :)
[21:11] <raven^Ron> I agree with you sonja :)
[21:11] <{sonja}JP> hmmmm sexual abuse - that would be REALLY hard to discern
[21:11] * starpearl kinda a little behind.. sorry
[21:11] <ana{Cor}> not really sonja(but i think raven's doing this one at a time)
[21:11] <Qryz> easy answer - consensual - but if you think about it the sneaky key to abuse is that it *is* consensual
[21:12] <Roamer`> starpearl: no problem :)
[21:12] <raven^Ron> in some cases consent is given at time of collar..blanket consent...but physical abuse can still occur..
[21:12] <Qryz> hmmm....could guilt be the key to abuse?
[21:12] <{sonja}JP> there is a point where a Dom knows what he is doing is abuse
[21:13] <raven^Ron> example: punishing the sub just because you are in the mood for pain play..(literally finding something to hit the sub for)..or hitting the sub for no reason, punishment not play, or punishing for smething the sub did not do..
[21:13] <raven^Ron> those would all be physical abuse in my opinion..
[21:13] <raven^Ron> yes ana..one at a time :)
[21:13] <{sonja}JP> right - and usually they both know it
[21:13] <mizu> just some do not say so
[21:13] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: yes
[21:13] <Qryz> i mean, if it is played as, 'if you really loved me/were a good sub/whatever' to get someone to do something, that would be edging towards abuse in my book...
[21:13] <{sonja}JP> right....
[21:13] <ana{Cor}> well.. I think the difference.. would be.. when it gets to a point.. where the sub is not getting anything BUT anguish out of it.. they no longer feel that it is a good and are constantly feeling .. rotten.. and bad.. and.. hurting
[21:13] <raven^Ron> Ron: maybe not sonja..it could be that he just goes a great deal further than the sub can handle..we all have limits..
[21:14] <raven^Ron> Qryz, yes..using that line is mental abuse..via manipulation..but lets stick to physical for now..
[21:14] <{sonja}JP> but if He does it on accident, that is a mistake that all humans can make
[21:14] <Qryz> sowwy
[21:14] <raven^Ron> I'm taking it one type at a time..so we don't get all confuzzled.. :)
[21:14] <raven^Ron> no problem Qryz :)
[21:14] <{sonja}JP> if He knows he went over the line....
[21:14] <ana{Cor}> I mean.. yes.. there are always going to be times, when your being punished.. and your not happy.. but.. if it's a constant feeling.. how can it be D/s?
[21:14] <raven^Ron> Ron: True..to err is human..to forgive submissive <oops> LOL..but yes errors happen..in such a case, the dom should acknowledge the error and apologize..
[21:15] <raven^Ron> Ron: or make ammends
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> exactly...then it is not abuse, but a mistake
[21:15] <raven^Ron> to me ana, it isn't d/s..
[21:15] * ana{Cor} hushs
[21:15] <raven^Ron> Ron: True.
[21:15] <raven^Ron> sonja: once in a while making a mistake is human..but to do it over and over is not..
[21:15] <raven^Ron> I was referring to doing it over and over..constantly ignoring the limits of the sub..
[21:16] <{sonja}JP> right - and over and over - both parties would know what is going on....
[21:16] <{sonja}JP> and it would be abuse
[21:16] <Roamer`> yes
[21:16] <raven^Ron> I agree with the first part..but not the second..it is often very hard for a victim of abuse to see the abuse clearly..
[21:16] * Qryz nodsnods vehemently
[21:17] <{sonja}JP> thats true...
[21:17] <raven^Ron> the reason fr this is because before physical abuse happens..there is usually mental/emotional abuse..that occurs and sets the person up for the physical..
[21:17] <raven^Ron> making it such that the person believes they deserved it, or must take it..
[21:17] * Qryz was in an abusive vanilla relationship and took a few years to figure it out...
[21:17] <raven^Ron> raven needs to increase her touch typing abilities..
[21:17] <{sonja}JP> <nods> been there done that Qryz
[21:18] <raven^Ron> can someone use the s/m or b/d part of BDSM to hide bieng physically abusive?
[21:18] <ana{Cor}> no.. often.. the abuser.. doesn't see what they are doing as Abuse.. they see it.. as they are doing what they can to keep the sub under control.. the abused, well.. that has alot to do with the mental aspects... if someone is told often enough.. that something is being done for thier own good.. aren't they gonna belive it?
[21:18] <raven^Ron> good point ana..and a correct one as wel..
[21:18] <{sonja}JP> i still think it would be hard to hide that from the getgo, maybe if it developed over time...
[21:19] <raven^Ron> phyiscal abuse in a d/s relationship does occur and usually the sub believes it is being done for their own good..(same as vanilla btw)..
[21:19] <Roamer`> ana{Cor}: good point, ive seen that in a vanilla relationship ......
[21:19] <ana{Cor}> abuse rarely starts out full blown sonja
[21:19] <raven^Ron> yes sonja..I agree..if the relationsip starts out abusive..it can't be hidden..but most abusive relationships don't start out that way...
[21:19] <Qryz> yup they start out reaallll nice...and gradually sneak their way into more and more abuse
[21:19] * ana{Cor} nods.. yes Qryz
[21:20] <raven^Ron> so can someone use the s/m or b/d part of BDSM to hide bieng physically abusive by sayng they are sadist?
[21:20] <ana{Cor}> yes.. of course..
[21:20] <{sonja}JP> people like that make me sick - sorry had to say that!
[21:20] <Qryz> but....and perhaps the sticky point is...many of us in the lifestyle may look at others within the lifestyle and call it abuse...which is even harder t do
[21:20] <mizu> ohhh yea, best way to do it
[21:20] * Roamer` scratches his head ........i suppose they can yes
[21:20] <ana{Cor}> "I like beating you, so you'll take it, because I Like it.. right?"
[21:21] <raven^Ron> I agree sonja..they make me sick too..
[21:21] <raven^Ron> yes ana..
[21:21] <ana{Cor}> and of course you want to make them happy.. so..
[21:21] <Roamer`> Qryz: i agree ....
[21:21] <raven^Ron> Yes Qryz...this is true..so how do you tell abuse from a healthy BDSM relationship?
[21:21] <ana{Cor}> and gradually.. it turns into.. your just taking it.. not actually getting anything out of it
[21:21] <Roamer`> good evening calliope`
[21:21] <{sonja}JP> <------head spinning with all the different paths here.....
[21:22] <Qryz> i think...and this is from watching people around me...its abuse when the sub is isolated from the community, locked into the house, not allowed on the computer, and dissuaded from talking to friends who question what's going on
[21:22] <calliope`> greetings, Roamer`, Sir
[21:22] <raven^Ron> ok...lets all take a deep breath..and calm for a second so we can stay on one path at a time... :)
[21:22] <raven^Ron> (BREAK TIME. 10 minutes and counting <giggle>)
[21:22] <ana{Cor}> constant feeling of.. fucking up.. not being good enough, or doing enough, ever.. depression.. extream loss of self..
[21:23] <raven^Ron> thanks sonja for saying your head was spinning..please anyone, if we are going too fast, say something so we can call a break and refocus ok?
<SNIPPED BREAK TIME >
[21:31] <raven^Ron> ok..(DISCUSSION RESUMES for logging purposes)
[21:31] * raven^Ron recaps
[21:31] <raven^Ron> we are on the path of physical abuse in BDSM relationships..we stated that sometimes people hide physical abuse behind the term "sadist"..agreed that physical abuse can exist...and some examples were given..
[21:32] <raven^Ron> so..next question I have is..
[21:32] <raven^Ron> if you are looking at someone else's relationship, how would you see physical abuse? what would you look for?
[21:32] <raven^Ron> you can't just look for hitting beacuse that exists in the vast majority of bdsm relationships..
[21:32] <{sonja}JP> the "look" in the eyes...
[21:32] <missyli> isolation....
[21:32] <ana{Cor}> a change in character..
[21:33] * ana{Cor} mumbles.. miss raven nicey nice
[21:33] <cher> low self esteem
[21:33] <mizu> total cutting off from friends
[21:33] <Qryz> when the sub is isolated from the community, locked into the house, not allowed on the computer, and dissuaded from talking to friends who question what's going on
[21:33] <cher> dependency on the abusive one
[21:33] * Qryz nodsnods with cher - you should feel stronger and better in a relationship, not crappy
[21:34] <raven^Ron> Ron agrees with all the above..you can't look at just the physical aspects, it's the emotional and mental aspects that makes it abuse. a sub with very high tolerance will take the hits and love it..
[21:34] <raven^Ron> I dont agree with the last part of your statement Ron..but will get back to that..ok one topic at a time...
[21:34] <raven^Ron> the "look" in their eyes..what look sonja?
[21:34] <Qryz> for instance, we have a friend who's a total masochist and is looking to be total slave, no 'romantic' attachment at all...some of the stuff she's done makes me shudder...but is it abuse? i don't think so...not quite sure...but i don't *think* so...
[21:35] <{sonja}JP> one - devoid of love, probably a fearful "ferral" look - seen it before...
[21:35] * Roamer` does not expect a sub to look "cowed"
[21:35] <{sonja}JP> right...
[21:35] <{sonja}JP> "scared of her/his own shadow" look
[21:35] <raven^Ron> the deer in the headlights look?
[21:35] <Roamer`> yah
[21:35] <raven^Ron> ok..that makes sense..
[21:35] <raven^Ron> what other looks in the eyes might be there besides fear?
[21:36] <ana{Cor}> empty
[21:36] <{sonja}JP> well - i get that one quite a bit....Master likes to surprise me *giggle*
[21:36] <raven^Ron> Ron: anger in the sub and the dom
[21:36] <missyli> black and blue ones
[21:36] <raven^Ron> LOL sonja
[21:36] <raven^Ron> that too missyli
[21:36] <ana{Cor}> like they just don't have anything left to give
[21:36] <raven^Ron> yes ana
[21:36] <raven^Ron> raven: devoid of all "life"..any spark that used to be there is gone..there is fear, wariness, caution, and no light..
[21:36] <raven^Ron> as ana called me "miss raven nice nice"
[21:36] <calliope`> the look of the person you used to know screaming inside to be let out again
[21:36] <missyli> but the deer in the headlights look....well many of us wear that often and love it
[21:36] <ana{Cor}> I thought she had lost her Mind
[21:37] <Qryz> its the wariness...the jumpy 'please don't hurt me' abused dog look...
[21:37] <ana{Cor}> she didn't argue with Anyone!!
[21:37] <raven^Ron> there is a differetn "shade" to it missyli..
[21:37] <raven^Ron> yes Qryz..
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> like an abused puppy dog
[21:37] <raven^Ron> no I didn't..
[21:37] <raven^Ron> yes
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> agreed Ron or was that raven?
[21:37] <raven^Ron> Ron BLINKS: she didn't argue with anyone??? are you sure it was raven?
[21:37] <ana{Cor}> she ussually frames Ron's comments with Ron:
[21:37] <raven^Ron> raven..sorry sonja..I don't remember to type my nick in when it is me speaking..
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> 's ok
[21:37] <ana{Cor}> yes Ron.. it was the same person.. but.. it was scary
[21:38] <raven^Ron> so there are alot of "looks" a sub who is abused can have...
[21:38] <raven^Ron> ROn: zoned out
[21:38] <{sonja}JP> ummmm - how bout that - an abused person will likely be afraid to argue with anyone about anything...
[21:38] <ana{Cor}> yes.. zoned out
[21:38] <missyli> i think the withdrawal from any outside contact would be the key for me
[21:38] <ana{Cor}> yes sonja.. for fear that they will be made Wrong, and hurt in different ways for being wrong
[21:38] <cher> a pleading look, one of wanting someone to help them when they are afraid to help themself
[21:38] <raven^Ron> ok..next path..is: isolation..
[21:38] <raven^Ron> that look too cher :)
[21:39] <raven^Ron> what is isolation?
[21:39] <ana{Cor}> you can only talk to who I say you can talk to, when I say you can talk to them, IF I think it's okay
[21:39] <raven^Ron> Ron: Being cut off from everything and everyone else
[21:39] <cher> moving me 100 miles away from my friends and family
[21:39] <ana{Cor}> and that might change tommorrow
[21:39] <missyli> an abuse victim will often isolate themselves..cut off contacts due to fear and shame
[21:39] <Qryz> oops cher that means i'm abusing mizu
[21:39] <mizu> no computer, no phone and can not go anywhere by yourself
[21:39] <raven^Ron> missy, they may isolate themselves by their own choice..or by the abuser's demands/orders..
[21:39] <starpearl> no will or desire to do normal things?
[21:39] <raven^Ron> raven sighs softly, draws a deep breath..yup mizu..
[21:39] <missyli> so it is not always the abuser though....yes Ron..
[21:40] * Qryz is moving mizu 1735 miles from his friends and family and notgiving him transportation
[21:40] <raven^Ron> they may have the desire star, but would lose it because it would not be allowed..
[21:40] <ana{Cor}> thats a good indication starpearl.. who wants to do "normal" things.. when the whole world is falling apart around you
[21:40] <raven^Ron> Ron laughs at Qryz..yeah but he wants to go
[21:40] <Roamer`> Qryz: damm, that means my sub abused ME :)
[21:40] <missyli> besides not being allowed it is too painful to be around those who are happy...and in healthy relationships
[21:40] <Roamer`> Rolling On The Floor LaughING
[21:40] * Qryz giggles at Roamer`
[21:41] <mizu> hey i got my blades, and the sushi place is just over the hill Dear
[21:41] <Qryz> yes dear - but i'm going for sushi twice as often and leaving you at home, remember?
[21:41] <raven^Ron> LOL Roamer
[21:41] <ana{Cor}> and what do you say to "normal" people anyhow? How can you share in thier joy, thier happy times, when .. you have none of your own
[21:41] <raven^Ron> that too missyli
[21:41] <Roamer`> ana{Cor}: good point
[21:41] <mizu> like hell, will chain you to tabby Dear
[21:41] <raven^Ron> good point ana
[21:41] <raven^Ron> LOL mizu
[21:41] <missyli> and to share it makes you feel somehow less...
[21:42] <raven^Ron> raven thinks..
[21:42] * ana{Cor} nods.. yes missy
[21:42] <raven^Ron> (look out raven is thinking, here comes a monsoon)
[21:42] * Qryz nods with missyli - if things happen that you can't tell to people, that's a sign i think...
[21:42] <missyli> take cover!
[21:42] <cher> you feel like the world is going on and you are standing still
[21:42] * Roamer` watcfhes the steam rise from raven's ears
[21:42] <raven^Ron> isolation: the complete and total removal of any contact outside of the dominant. no friends, phne calls, online, nothing..
[21:42] <missyli> and when you tell someone, they will want you to act on your own behalf, and you don't have that left in you to do
[21:43] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: yes .almost like a prison sentence
[21:43] <raven^Ron> by totally isolating the sub, the dom ensures that no one will point out the abuse..and can easily erode the sub's self esteem..
[21:43] <raven^Ron> yes Roamer..very much so..
[21:43] <raven^Ron> true missyli
[21:43] <missyli> and this can be easily cloaked in the terms D/s
[21:43] <raven^Ron> isolation is the first step to a fully abusive relationship...in order to acheive the rest, the sub has to be totally dependent upon the dom..
[21:44] <missyli> but then, there are times when i am isolated totally by Master, and it serves a purpose, and not a negative one
[21:44] <{sonja}JP> but for howlong?
[21:44] <raven^Ron> difference there missy is those times are not the norm for the relationship..they are "once in a while, for a purpose"
[21:44] <Roamer`> missyli: maybe, but it isnt constant is it ?
[21:44] <{sonja}JP> wow - look at all the same wavelengths goin on there...
[21:44] <raven^Ron> LOL sonja
[21:45] <missyli> a few days at most...but the effects can be recalled in an instant, just part of my training
[21:45] <Roamer`> {sonja}JP: hehehe
[21:45] <raven^Ron> so we all basically agree on what isolation is..
[21:46] <missyli> yes
[21:46] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: indeed
[21:46] <raven^Ron> isolation would lead to low self esteem...how?
[21:46] <raven^Ron> (that was next in listing of topics tossed all at once, I am taking them in order..<giggle>)
[21:46] <missyli> when you are totally alone...and made wrong continually, you question yourself, and your sanity as well
[21:47] <raven^Ron> raven nods..
[21:47] <raven^Ron> how can one be "mad wrong continually" though?
[21:47] <raven^Ron> mad=made even
[21:47] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: it leaves the Dom able to re-enforce the "low self" image uninterrupted
[21:47] <raven^Ron> How Roamer?
[21:47] <starpearl> no one else to help bring you up? no social contact especially if you are an extrovert, I think...
[21:47] <{sonja}JP> by being told so.....
[21:47] <missyli> i call it a game called "slap the sub"
[21:47] <raven^Ron> thank you sonja! :)
[21:47] <{sonja}JP> Master said...etc...
[21:48] <missyli> when no matter how hard you work...you fall short continually, the rules keep changing
[21:48] <raven^Ron> that too star, without anyone to say "no that is wrong!" the sub will believe what the dom (only source of feedback) tells them..so yes, no one else to bring you up will be part of it
[21:48] <{sonja}JP> where were those rules??... oh yes, rule #1 - Master is always right - rule #2 if Master is wrong refer to rule #1
[21:48] <cher> you beleive what you hear over and over again....that you are worthless
[21:48] <missyli> and confusion is more prevalant that learning
[21:48] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: we are naturally socaible creature ..we take many of our "cues" about our behaviors from others ....
[21:48] <raven^Ron> Ron: or if the sub continually questions themselves and has no one but the dom to talk to, they will get to the point where they believe whatever the dom tells them..they will stop questioning things because they get in trouble when they do
[21:48] <Roamer`> therefore if we are in a situation whenre we are only being fed "newgative reinforcement" .......
[21:48] <raven^Ron> (I now have ana behind me and will type for her as well..)
[21:48] <raven^Ron> yes cher..
[21:49] <raven^Ron> ana: someone can be made to be wrong all the time by: you tell someone they are wrong often enought and they start actually wondering if they are not wrong. I mean you can only be wrong/bad so often before you start going "Maybe i am"
[21:49] <raven^Ron> raven: makes sense ana..
[21:50] <cher> i began to believe everything i did was wrong
[21:50] <raven^Ron> Ron: falling short continually and changing rules, like missyli said..yes..keep sub confused..makes him/her question themsleves even more..
[21:50] <raven^Ron> me too cher
[21:50] <{sonja}JP> right ana - and then add on top of that no one else around to tell them differently...
[21:50] * lil`dragn has to book out of here problems with family.......Blessed Be and Merry Part all
[21:50] <Qryz> for isntance...constant digs about being fat, not looking good in clothes, pointing at other woman and saying, 'why can't you do/look like/be that?'
[21:50] <raven^Ron> raven: punish the sub for everything they do..and make sure you tell them they are being punished..start punishing the sub for things someone else does as well..that will erode self esteem real fast..
[21:50] <raven^Ron> yes Qryz
[21:51] <raven^Ron> Ron: I believe you are doing this right cher :)
[21:51] <cher> Thank you Sir
[21:51] <{sonja}JP> or more subtle than that.....little things like "i'm hungry" - answered by "well, you ARENT going to blow away or anythign...."
[21:51] <raven^Ron> Correct Roamer, if all one gets is negative reinforcement, then one will believe those negative things are the truth..
[21:51] <raven^Ron> ana: thanks sonja
[21:51] <raven^Ron> Ron: You're welcome
[21:51] <Roamer`> exactly Ron
[21:51] <raven^Ron> yes sonja..subtelty can be just as bad..
[21:51] <missyli> yes sonya...
[21:52] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: subtlety can be worse ...its more insidious
[21:52] <raven^Ron> what about the dom withdrawing..completely and totally (physically, verbally, emotionally) from the sub, for no stated reason for days on end? And never explaining why when/if he comes back??
[21:52] <raven^Ron> yes Roamer
[21:52] <{sonja}JP> oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh that one makes me mad just thinking about it
[21:52] <missyli> for a submissive...i think that kind of dismissal is cruel
[21:53] <raven^Ron> need a break sonja?
[21:53] <cher> even with the abuse, you still pray he comes back
[21:53] <{sonja}JP> no - anger is much better...
[21:53] <raven^Ron> raven needs a break..I'm sorry...can we have a 10 minute break pleaes?
[21:53] <{sonja}JP> sure
[21:53] <Qryz> that's total abuse raven^Ron - but...have a friend who's Dom is lovely but an alcoholic..was dry for a year, lost his job and wife at the same time, totally collapsed drank again, broke off contact with her...to her eyes it was abuse, to his he was just trying to cope with life
[21:53] <raven^Ron> yes cher..and you bust your ass to please him..make him come back..and blame yourself when he doesn't..
[21:53] <{sonja}JP> <-----like i have control - crackin myself up...
[21:54] <cher> or worse, when he does, you let him do anything he chooses to you to keep him there
[21:54] <{sonja}JP> what i hate is that it is sooo easy to see in someone elses relationship, but so difficult to see in your own...
[21:55] <cher> i didn't see it for 8 years
[21:55] * starpearl trying to understand...
[21:55] * Qryz didn't see it for ...umm...about 2 years
[21:55] <{sonja}JP> ooooh - i beatcha cher - 9 years - just kiddin hun 6 months is just as bad!!!
[21:55] <calliope`> i saw it early on, but had been so cut off i didn't know how to get out
[21:55] <raven^Ron> ana: In my mind that is justifiable cause ..but it is not a good reason..but he was an alcoholic...but the reason makes it different from someone who seeks to subjugate or totally control/destroy another on purpose..
[21:56] <starpearl> what is the Dom getting out of doing this.. total control and power? He cant be getting any joy, can he?
[21:56] <raven^Ron> ana: to Qryz's statement above..
[21:56] <raven^Ron> Ron: yes cher
[21:56] <Qryz> and then you despise yourself for being so pathetically grateful to have him back again...
[21:56] <raven^Ron> raven: yes cher..anything he asks...to try and make him happy..make him stsay with you..
[21:56] <cher> i was afraid to be alone, i felt worthless of anyone
[21:57] <Roamer`> starpearl: no, i have seen a few cases like thta ...in each one it always seemed like cowardice on the Dom's part to me
[21:57] <raven^Ron> [21:54] <{sonja}JP> what i hate is that it is sooo easy to see in someone elses relationship, but so difficult to see in your own...
[21:57] <Qryz> but finally...when i said, 'that's it and i mean it' and he kept trying to come back and *i* had the power to say no - i was flying high, and felt like i had taken off a girdle that was trying to change me into a totally different shape...it was a very physical feeling of mental release...
[21:57] <{sonja}JP> boy do i know that feeling Qryz
[21:57] <raven^Ron> raven: sonja I have to agree with that..it is sadly very true..and sometimes, even if the person sees it, they don't have the strength to leave..
[21:58] <raven^Ron> yes Qryz!!!!
[21:58] <{sonja}JP> or they are stopped by a man who says - i will take your children and hide them so you never see them again.........
[21:58] * mizu bows and quietly leaves the room
[21:58] <raven^Ron> raven: It took me seeing him put the same tactics on a friend of mine, to finally get the guts to say that's it.no more..and leave..
[21:59] <cher> it took my 5 year old son cowering in a corner for me to say enough
[21:59] * justliste grumbles
[21:59] <raven^Ron> what is wrong justliste?
[21:59] <Qryz> ta sonja!
[22:01] <raven^Ron> do you think a submissive, by thier very nature, is more suseptible to being abused?
[22:01] <listening> well, i'm new...don't want anyone to think i'm butting in
[22:01] <raven^Ron> Ron: yeah
[22:01] <{sonja}JP> all depends on the person behind the submissive nature...
[22:01] <raven^Ron> raven: butt in listening, that's what this is for..
[22:01] <Roamer`> listening: hehehe, butt away
[22:01] <cher> i am submissive but would no longer accept abuse
[22:01] <raven^Ron> Ron: if for no other reason than abusive people would see a sub as an easy target
[22:01] <{sonja}JP> butts are well-liked here *giggle*
[22:01] <raven^Ron> raven: I agree with Ron..
[22:02] <raven^Ron> raven: I understand that sentiment cher..and will touch upn it again in a moment..
[22:02] <Roamer`> agreed Ron
[22:02] <raven^Ron> LOL sonja
[22:02] <raven^Ron> Ron: LOL sonja..
[22:02] <raven^Ron> Ron: I *really* like raven's butt
[22:02] <raven^Ron> raven: you are biased ROn..LOL
[22:02] * Qryz loves mizu's bonybutt
[22:02] <{sonja}JP> but cher, i think that it is more that you are a survivor of abuse that you wouldnt be abused now....
[22:02] <raven^Ron> ok..enough talking about butts..
[22:02] <Qryz> submissive but not meek...submissive but not a doormat...
[22:02] <raven^Ron> that is not neccessarily true sonja..
[22:02] <{sonja}JP> well - it is for me anywasy
[22:02] <raven^Ron> please let me explain why..
[22:02] <raven^Ron> raven starts typing..
[22:03] <cher> yes sonja, that is why, i have been there and know it isn't part of a healthy relationship
[22:03] * Roamer` politely waits for listening to finish
[22:03] <listening> ??
[22:03] <{sonja}JP> go raven go
[22:03] * ana{Cor} returns
[22:03] <Roamer`> listening: sorry, misread what you typed ......
[22:03] <Roamer`> appologies
[22:03] <raven^Ron> once a person has been abused, they form behavior patterns to deal with the current abuse going on..such as apologize for everything that happens, whether they were to blame or not..in order to placate or prevent an outburst..
[22:04] <listening> lol no problem Sir
[22:04] <raven^Ron> these behavior patterns remain in the person's psyche for ever..
[22:04] <Qryz> i think there are two ways to go after abuse: either you recognize what happened or don't, and then choose to repeat the patterns of abuse or not - and there are reasons to continue with abusers, especially if you don't recognize the pattern...
[22:04] <raven^Ron> a person who has been abused before, unfortunately, is easier to abuse in the future..even if they got psychiatric help to heal the abuse..(I"m not done, hold on please)
[22:04] <ana{Cor}> I don't think you can ever say.. "I won't ever be abused again", you can try, you can watch out for it.. but.. once it's happened, you have that.. ability for it to happen again..
[22:05] <ana{Cor}> (can't find a better for then ability)
[22:05] <Roamer`> scan we slow down a little please .im beginnig to loose the thread
[22:05] <raven^Ron> the reason they are easier in some ways to abuse agiain, is because it is just a matter of tapping into those old behavior patterns again..making them become the norm again..and this can be done over time, by a person who knows how...
[22:05] <raven^Ron> raven stops and scrolls back..yes Roamer
[22:05] * Qryz nodsnods with raven^Ron
[22:05] <Roamer`> thnx ......
[22:05] <raven^Ron> ok..I see what happened..
[22:05] <cher> and an abused person doesn't see that slowly happening again....
[22:05] <raven^Ron> exactly cher!
[22:06] <Roamer`> reading back.......
[22:06] <{sonja}JP> agreed - can go either way - a past=abused person is more likely to be on guard but also has those patterns....
[22:06] <Qryz> its like...my relationship with my mother...we can just push each other's buttons and start screaming (and in some ways its abuse)
[22:06] <cher> then you find yourself in the middle of a abusive relationship again and think you must deserve it
[22:06] * listening has to disagree with cher's last statement...many are more on their guard...sometimes to the point of paranoia about developing new relationships
[22:06] <ana{Cor}> certain.. types of people, are always going to.. "get to you" More then likely
[22:07] <{sonja}JP> i also trained myself OUT of the abuse before i got OUT of the relationship....
[22:07] <{sonja}JP> but different people do things differently...
[22:07] <raven^Ron> ok..everyone hold until Roamer catches up..he's scrolled back..
[22:08] * ana{Cor} grabs something and holds on
[22:09] <Roamer`> back
[22:09] <{sonja}JP> oooohhhh - ana - whatcha holding on to????
[22:09] <Roamer`> nicely timed Ron
[22:09] <raven^Ron> all set Roamer?
[22:09] <{sonja}JP> sorry - inside joke with Master and i - (He is crackin up over there...)
[22:09] <raven^Ron> LOL ana
[22:09] <Roamer`> just about thanks
[22:09] <raven^Ron> raven holds onto Ron's butt..<eg>
[22:09] <raven^Ron> ok Roamer :)
[22:09] <raven^Ron> Ron: Hey!
[22:09] <{sonja}JP> lol
[22:09] <raven^Ron> Ron: A little to the left
[22:10] <ana{Cor}> uhmmmm.. can't tell sonja.. children might be watching.. *wg*
[22:10] <raven^Ron> raven hangs on a little to the left
[22:10] <{sonja}JP> please! - like you're really complaining ron...
[22:10] <raven^Ron> ok..let's touch upon this...training yourself out of abuse..is it possible to completely remove the learned behavior patterns from one's mind>
[22:10] <raven^Ron> ?
[22:10] <Qryz> nope never uh uh
[22:10] <{sonja}JP> not completely - but a lot....
[22:10] <raven^Ron> Ron: I agree listening
[22:11] <ana{Cor}> no, I don't think so, specially when it's behavior that is taught over a long period of time
[22:11] <{sonja}JP> and more with emotional rather than physical...
[22:11] <raven^Ron> Ron: yes some people do get paranoid about new relationships listening..
[22:11] <raven^Ron> raven: ok Ron..we're on a different path, please make aleft turn..blink blink..
[22:11] <cher> im not paranoid, just afraid
[22:11] <{sonja}JP> i feel like i have - but i hope to never have that resolve tested again..
[22:11] <ana{Cor}> you can.. learn to ignore alot of it, but when someone pushs Past that .. your going to fall back into the old behaviors
[22:11] <raven^Ron> raven: I think one can learn new behaviors, but the old is still there and can be brought back under the right circumstances..
[22:12] <raven^Ron> raven: I agree ana..
[22:12] <ana{Cor}> and it's real easy.. once it's happened once.. no matter how self assured you are.. some things will still hit bad places
[22:12] <Roamer`> ana{Cor}: i agree .......
[22:12] <raven^Ron> I believe this, because I had said once "I will never be abused again"..and boy was I ever wrong..the fact that I had been abused before, lent itself to me being abused again...
[22:13] <raven^Ron> yes ana
[22:13] <cher> no different than an alcholic, one can always lapse back no matter how much they say they won't
[22:13] <ana{Cor}> and those "bad places
[22:13] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: i know someone almost exactly like that
[22:13] <raven^Ron> yes cher
[22:13] <ana{Cor}> " spread over time
[22:13] <raven^Ron> yes ana
[22:13] <ana{Cor}> sorry
[22:13] <ana{Cor}> enter key expaneded
[22:13] <Corgan> back :)
[22:13] <raven^Ron> Do you think abusive people look for those who have been abused in thier pasts, either purposely or uncconsciously?
[22:13] <{sonja}JP> set off a train of thought........i think (very personal opinion) that BDSM can be "addictive" like alcohol....can abuse be addictive?
[22:14] <ana{Cor}> YES raven
[22:14] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: sometimes both ......
[22:14] <Corgan> thanks :)
[22:14] <ana{Cor}> who better to knock down, then someone who's already half way there?
[22:14] <raven^Ron> why would they seek someone who wa abused before?
[22:14] <raven^Ron> sonja, wil get your comment next..promise
[22:14] <ana{Cor}> easy target?
[22:14] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: easy traget ......
[22:15] <raven^Ron> Ron: I think they do seek out personality traits, somoene submissive, someone who accepts blame, someone who is eaisly manipulated..
[22:15] <{sonja}JP> nobody said abusers were stupid....of course they would...they prey on the weak to begin with...
[22:15] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: the abusive person i know of, is "addixcted' to his behaviour
[22:15] <raven^Ron> ok..this brings us back to sonja's question..can abuse be addictive?
[22:15] <raven^Ron> Ron: yes
[22:15] <ana{Cor}> yes
[22:15] <raven^Ron> Ron: on both sides
[22:15] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: very much so
[22:15] <Qryz> yupyup
[22:15] <cher> yes
[22:15] <raven^Ron> raven: yes I think so..as much as I hate to say it..yes..
[22:15] <Roamer`> for both
[22:16] <raven^Ron> how is it addictive?
[22:16] <ana{Cor}> I don't think it's a consious thing on most cases..
[22:16] <{sonja}JP> now we are getting scary
[22:16] <raven^Ron> Ron: do we need to take a break sonja? or is it just scaring you that everyone is agreeing? <smile warmly>
[22:16] <ana{Cor}> but.. abused people.. somehow belive.. that the person that abused them, Loved them.. and that if a person is Not abusing them, they aren't loved
[22:16] <Qryz> "now" we're getting scary?
[22:16] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: for the abuser .i think its the power .......
[22:17] <cher> ana, i agree
[22:17] <raven^Ron> yes ana..a victim can indeed confuse abuse with love...
[22:17] <Roamer`> (in the case i know of .i KNOW its the power)
[22:17] <raven^Ron> we been scary all along Qryz??
[22:17] * Qryz thinks it is a small step from thinking...if he doesn't get an erection he's not attracted to me to if he doesn't beat me to get his erection/pay attention then he doesn't care...
[22:17] <raven^Ron> Ron: It can be a very heavy rush to be that much in control..yes Roamer
[22:17] <{sonja}JP> scaring me that ..... just scary to really contemplate...... hate to think of myself as "fooling myself"
[22:17] <ana{Cor}> it hasn't been the.. nicest set of topics raven.. importaint to discuss.. but not nice
[22:17] <raven^Ron> yes..a very small step Qryz
[22:18] <raven^Ron> raven; I can understand that sonja..
[22:18] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: actually in this particular case ....its done to bolster a very weak self image .........
[22:18] <raven^Ron> true ana.not nice..
[22:18] <Qryz> we're a fairly random (some selfselection from computer literacy/topic selection) group of intelligent people...most of whom have been abused or know those that have been...hard to think its 'that' prevalent
[22:18] <cher> sonja, after my husband died i became involved with an abusive man again, but this time got out before it was too late
[22:18] <ana{Cor}> I don't think it's fooling yourself sonja.. if you didn't belive you were strong enough to withstand it, it would be so much easier to fall into it again.. but.. saying that it will never happen again.. is just another sort of trap..
[22:18] <raven^Ron> raven: sometimes Qryz, I'm not sure if it is that prevelant or if the definition of what is abuse has become so broad that just about anything fits in it now..
[22:19] <raven^Ron> Ron: yes ana
[22:19] * Qryz screams....a ninny sub has recently started posting to our local group in the third person....i just asked her why and she said, 'i'm trying to be lowly' WHAT THE F*UCK???????????
[22:19] <raven^Ron> cher, good point, the past can be of benefit in that it can make abuse easier to see and easier to get out of..
[22:19] <{sonja}JP> well, like i said, i am just hopeful that i never have to test that ...
[22:19] <raven^Ron> that's another topic Qryz.. LOL
[22:20] <Qryz> gawd there's nothing i hate more than ninnies
[22:20] <Qryz> well..except for intolerant ninnies *g*
[22:20] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: good topic for further discussion tho
[22:20] * ana{Cor} smiles
[22:20] <raven^Ron> it will be discussed on the 13th of OCtober when I bring up the topic of Gor..third person speech is part of that...<DUCKS>
[22:20] <{sonja}JP> yikes - actually it sounds on topic......could she be tyring to be "lowly" cause she is abused?
[22:20] * Roamer` is extremely tolerant .except for ppl who piss me off
[22:20] * ana{Cor} laughs.. ducks?
[22:21] <raven^Ron> Ron: possibly sonja, or possibly because she seeks abuse..
[22:21] <ana{Cor}> duck duck duck duck duck duck.. goose!
[22:21] <Roamer`> Gor ?
[22:21] <ana{Cor}> yep, gor
[22:21] <Roamer`> of yeah, the books
[22:21] <Roamer`> k
[22:21] <raven^Ron> it is possible that she uses third person because her dom told her that is a way for a sub to show their "humility" and "submissiveness" whihc is "lower than dominance" ..through words online..by using third person..
[22:21] <{sonja}JP> i am supposed to be trying to get those books.....
[22:22] <raven^Ron> however, it could be an instrument of abuse, to lower one's self esteem..by removing their identify of themsleves as an individual..
[22:25] <raven^Ron> What are self esteem issues?
[22:25] <raven^Ron> Ron: self esteem is where I think we can most clearly see where a relationship has gotten abusive..because taht will show even more than the marks, I mean the marks could just be heavy play
[22:26] <raven^Ron> raven: I agree Ron..a complete loss of, or an obvious lowering of self esteem in a sub oculd be a sign that the sub is being abused..because a d/s relationship is supposed to enhance the sub and the dom..if it is doing the opposite something is wrong.
[22:27] * starpearl doesn't see how a Dom could be happy if a sub isnt
[22:27] <{sonja}JP> i see that in a lot of Large subs....when they say that they dont feel comfortable with their masters, naked....kinda bothers me
[22:27] * ana{Cor} thinks it's amusing to watch raven^Ron talk to themself
[22:28] <raven^Ron> star, I don't think a dom would be happy if the sub wasn't..but an abusive person is not seeking happiness, they are seeking total control of the victim..usually because they don't believe they are good enough but they'll never admit that..
[22:28] <starpearl> but then, i dont see a lot of things....
[22:28] <raven^Ron> yes sonja...
[22:28] <raven^Ron> LOL ana
[22:28] <raven^Ron> which brings us to...why do you think an abusive person is abusive, what makes them do it?
[22:29] <ana{Cor}> power..
[22:29] <cher> their low self esteem
[22:29] <listening> insecurity
[22:29] <raven^Ron> ROn: yes yes and yes
[22:29] <Qryz> ah...ninny sub says that former master (an idiot) told her subs are inferior and property
[22:29] <ana{Cor}> they feel week.. so they have to have control of someone else to prove how .. good they are
[22:29] <raven^Ron> ninny sub needs help
[22:29] <starpearl> wanting to tear down another to boost themself?
[22:29] <raven^Ron> yes ana
[22:29] <raven^Ron> yes star..
[22:29] <listening> exactly, star...its the only place they can get their power
[22:30] * starpearl beams brightly :)
[22:30] <cher> my husband was abused as a child and his abusing me gave him the power he didn't have as a child
[22:30] <raven^Ron> what about those who abuse because they grew upin an abusive home..so to them it is normal and not being done out of any power seeking?
[22:30] <Qryz> hey raven - can i invite ninnysub to join dom_sub?
[22:30] * listening nods at cher
[22:30] <raven^Ron> yes!
[22:30] <raven^Ron> that is probably true cher :)
[22:30] <raven^Ron> that yes! was to Qryz
[22:30] <listening> exactly...you can't have any self-esteem growing up in an abusive household
[22:31] <ana{Cor}> thats different raven.. i think those behaviours can be retaught
[22:31] <ana{Cor}> errr.. fixed?
[22:31] <raven^Ron> true listening
[22:31] <raven^Ron> maybe ana..but then, only if the person realizes they need to relearn the stuff..
[22:31] <listening> that is what finally got ME out of my situation...when i realized my girls were going to grow up like that...or looking for someone like their father
[22:31] <cher> my husband also did alot of time in prison which stripped all his power, which made him even more abusive to me
[22:32] <raven^Ron> and the person may not realize it, until they have abused someone else..and suddenly everone is telling them how wrong they are...
[22:32] <raven^Ron> forcing them to think that maybe they were..
[22:32] * Qryz congratulates listening - that's a powerful thing!
[22:32] <raven^Ron> yes..that will do it listening..:))
[22:32] <raven^Ron> yes cher..
[22:33] <starpearl> must have been hard, listening. i commend your intergity.
[22:34] <listening> its insane...and the testament to how powerful the abuse and isolation can be...a coma didn't make me leave...but realizing one of my girls might marry someone like him had me out of there in a heartbeat =(
[22:34] <Qryz> but...some woman don't even get out with that...so GOOD for you!
[22:34] <raven^Ron> it's usually something more than self protection that gets a victim to leave an abusive relationship..
[22:34] <{sonja}JP> Master wishes to say something.....
[22:34] <listening> nods
[22:34] <raven^Ron> either thier children..or something similar
[22:34] <raven^Ron> sure sonja
[22:34] <{sonja}JP> typing for Him....
[22:35] <raven^Ron> ok
[22:35] <{sonja}JP> He wishes all the women here good luck in finding stable relationships - He is saddened to see all the "voices" raised that are so similar to mine
[22:35] <{sonja}JP> He is so cute - wants to save the world He does....
[22:35] <raven^Ron> thank you JP .. :)
[22:36] <raven^Ron> so does Ron..:)
[22:36] * ana{Cor} smiles and waves to JP
[22:36] <{sonja}JP> and He says - Not All men are Assholes!!!!
[22:36] * ana{Cor} laughs
[22:36] <raven^Ron> sonja, I think anyone who is a decent caring person wants to save the world in this way.. :)
[22:36] <ana{Cor}> no, not all of them are
[22:36] <raven^Ron> he's right..they're not..<giggle>
[22:36] <raven^Ron> which brings me to this...can women be abusive in a relationship?
[22:36] * listening smiles...thank you Sir
[22:36] <ana{Cor}> yes
[22:36] <cher> my friend bought me a bumper sticker that said "asshole magnent"
[22:36] <{sonja}JP> good Lord YES - my sister is one....
[22:36] <raven^Ron> LOL cher..that's cool!
[22:36] <ana{Cor}> ussually more on the emotional mental levels I think
[22:37] <ana{Cor}> a few words can tear someone down just as fast as kicking them
[22:37] <raven^Ron> I know the answer to this but I know someone reading this log will ask themselves this question..How can a woman abuse a man?
[22:37] <raven^Ron> yes ana..
[22:37] <cher> yes, i have a male freind who was abused mentally and physically, but was too embarrased to do anthing about it
[22:38] <raven^Ron> I have a couple like that cher..and if you tell them they are bieng abused, they don't believe it..
[22:38] <{sonja}JP> the same way - and especially with mental abuse - women are probably better at it than men...
[22:38] <raven^Ron> do you think, that in the case of male victims of abuse, they deny it longer due to male pride? (Male pride meaning that they are supposed to be strong, the fighter, unbreakable all that)
[22:38] <raven^Ron> how so sonja?
[22:38] * listening nods
[22:38] <ana{Cor}> "Your Worthless, you can't stand up for yourself, you don't know how to use whats between your legs, no balls, you can't satisfy anyone, you can't get a decent job, you can't support your family".. men (alot of men) rely on certain.. norms
[22:38] <cher> very much so....the cops out here laughed at this male friend when he finally had to call them
[22:39] <ana{Cor}> that they protect thier family, support them, give them what they need, are good providers..
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> really - catch em wiht the "no balls" comment....
[22:39] <raven^Ron> Ron returns and adds: I can save the world..they're just not giving me enough money to do it..at least I can save 9 people at a time..
[22:39] <ana{Cor}> and any.. blows to that.. are going to hurt
[22:39] <raven^Ron> raven nods..
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> my sister HEAPS on her husband - and HEAPED on her last husband.....and smacks em around -even though they are/were much bigger than her
[22:39] <ana{Cor}> just like with a woman, your hurt them enough.. and.. well.. they give up
[22:40] <raven^Ron> true ana..
[22:40] <raven^Ron> yes sonja..
[22:40] <raven^Ron> do you think that a woman would get away with hitting a man because of the old saying "Never hit a woman"..if the man were "old school"?
[22:40] <ana{Cor}> different words.. but it all comes down to the same thing, your worthless/bad/wrong
[22:40] <ana{Cor}> YES
[22:41] <raven^Ron> I see old movies..women slap men constantly..
[22:41] <raven^Ron> is that abusive?
[22:41] <{sonja}JP> everyone always says.....if her husband ever has enough - he will kill her - but she gets them so cowed....(6'3 - 280 lbs cowed man)
[22:41] <{sonja}JP> depends on why the slap...
[22:41] <raven^Ron> yup...defeat someone mentally/emotionally and the physical follows..
[22:41] <raven^Ron> what would be an abusive slap from a woman to a man?
[22:42] <listening> may i ask a question?
[22:42] <raven^Ron> sure listening...
[22:42] <listening> i was wondering how those who have been in abusive nilla relationships reconcile the bdsm aspects of the relationships they might be in now?
[22:42] <listening> i had a horrible time with it
[22:43] <ana{Cor}> isn't anything, that actually harms a person, physically, mentally, emotionally, abuse? (not hurt, hell.. you can Hurt someone with a spanking, but thier butt will be okay soon enough)
[22:43] <cher> i am just entering into a d/s relationship and scared as hell
[22:43] <raven^Ron> I had a very ahrd time at first listening..wondering if I was craving BDSM out of some unconscious need to abuse myself...but I was able to think back and remember that I have always been kinky sexually, and have always preferred a more docile role in a relationship..prior to being involved in an abusive vanilla one..
[22:44] <raven^Ron> for me, my submissive personality, made my first marriage (abusive vanilla) possible as far as the abuse is concerned..
[22:44] <raven^Ron> ana, wouldn't the hurt have to be long lasting? not just a temporary inconvenience pain like a spanking...
[22:44] * listening nods to raven
[22:45] <ana{Cor}> thats why I said Harm.. not hurt
[22:45] <ana{Cor}> hurt is different
[22:45] <{sonja}JP> same here - i was trying to submit to someone who was incapable of being a Dom (neither of us KNEW) but He was taking advantage of what we all thought was just my "personality"
[22:45] <listening> yes!
[22:45] <raven^Ron> Ron: to reconcile it: was the abusive relatinsip loving? is the BDSM relationship loving? ...do they build you up or tear you down? the answers to those questions can reconcile the need for bdsm and past abuse..
[22:46] <{sonja}JP> Exactly Ron - that is the diff for me...
[22:46] <EZRiser> interesting topic tonite, and experiences .. but 5 comes too early in the AM for me .. night all
[22:46] <raven^Ron> sorry ana..I missed the "harm"
[22:46] <listening> i think the hardest time i had was with the bdsm play...not so much the submissive nature
[22:46] <raven^Ron> sleep well EZ
[22:46] <raven^Ron> Ron: NIght EZ
[22:46] <listening> be well, EZ
[22:46] <ana{Cor}> harming, meaning, they kill all joy in you - hurt: it's mutual pleasure <grin>
[22:46] <starpearl> good night, Sir
[22:46] <ana{Cor}> night EZ :)
[22:46] <raven^Ron> Ron; was your past abuse more physical than mental listening?
[[22:46] <raven^Ron> understood it when you explained it gf..thanks :)
[22:46] * ana{Cor} giggles
[22:47] * ana{Cor} is feeling rather babblish tonight
<rest of log snipped due to personal content and requests to remove it for privacy>
[20:59] <raven^Ron> you must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave. Legal age being 18 or 21 depending on your location
[20:59] <raven^Ron> no trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night
[20:59] <raven^Ron> be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[20:59] <raven^Ron> all statements are publishable on the web site, with nicks changed (at your request, email webmaster@leathernroses.com if you don't want your nick used.) If an email request is not recieved, that will be taken as consent to post the log in it's entirety using the nicknames.
[21:00] <raven^Ron> I wish to ask that people please keep in mind how fast the screen will scroll when everyone speaks at once..so lets try to have some consideration and not go too fast..
[21:01] <raven^Ron> also..if a discussion degrades into a semantics argument, and we can not agree to disagree, I will end the discussion..
[21:01] <raven^Ron> everyone agree?
[21:01] <ana{Cor}> yes ma'am
[21:01] <mizu> yea
[21:01] <{sonja}JP> yes mam
[21:02] * LadySkye nods to both
[21:02] * Roamer` thinks about disagreeing with the wording of the final point ...then chuckles ......
[21:02] <raven^Ron> okey dokey..here we go then.. :)
[21:02] <lil`dragn> LOL
[21:02] <{sonja}JP> ma'am..even
[21:02] <raven^Ron> LOL LS
[21:02] * Qryz agrees with both
[21:02] <raven^Ron> tonight's topic is Abuse in BDSM..let's start with this..
[21:02] <raven^Ron> do you think that abuse can occur in a BDSM relationship?
[21:02] <{sonja}JP> yep
[21:02] <{sonja}JP> easy question - whats next - LOL
[21:03] <ana{Cor}> yes
[21:03] * Qryz shyly, tentatively and meekly sits in the yes corner
[21:03] <LadySkye> very much so
[21:03] <Corgan> absolutely
[21:03] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: i think it can, thoguh to be honest i have never witnessed any directly
[21:03] <lil`dragn> yes....there is always someone who is ready to abuse something.....
[21:03] <mizu> yes, easy to mix the two
[21:03] <{sonja}JP> sorry - little sarcasm there
[21:03] <EZRiser> it can occur in what starts out in a BDSM relationship .. but then the relationship quickly deteriorates
[21:03] * ana{Cor} likes bunnies
[21:03] <ana{Cor}> woops
[21:03] <EZRiser> and becomes just an abusive relationship
[21:04] <{sonja}JP> goes to why Honor in a Dom is so very important....
[21:04] <raven^Ron> I believe abuse can exist..though it would be difficult to see it becaue the nature of the relationship is giving up of control..
[21:04] <raven^Ron> yes sonja, I agree about the honor..
[21:04] <Roamer`> brb
[21:04] * LAR^ has certainly seen many cases of it. But I have a question. If a person is in a D/s relationship with somebody who was abused as a child. And that person seeks D/s as a way of "Fixing" themselves, is it abuse?
[21:04] <raven^Ron> Ron: brb
[21:05] <LAR^> Sorry, where the sub was abused, and now seeks a Dominant to get what they never received as a child.
[21:05] <raven^Ron> it wouldn't be abuse if the person knew what they were getting in to, however, using D/s to heal past abuse is a tricky thing...it does not always work..and can in some cases, cause more harm than good..
[21:05] <raven^Ron> Ron returns..
[21:06] <mizu> ohhh yea
[21:06] * Qryz objects to the theory that there are more abused people in D/s than in 'nilla life - i feel that the nature of increased communication makes people more open and liable to talk about everything, including abuse
[21:06] <raven^Ron> some subs do that Lar, seek a dom to give them the love acceptance and such they did not get as a child..however, this can backfire if the person does not develop their own sense of self esteem and relies on the dom to feel good aobut themselves..
[21:06] <raven^Ron> I agree with that Qryz...
[21:07] <Qryz> but i just don't believe there's more abuse in D/s, no matter how many people state they were abused...
[21:07] <raven^Ron> Ron: It would have to be a damned good dom to help that person heal..
[21:07] <{sonja}JP> like a dom with a phychiatric degree..........
[21:07] <raven^Ron> I agree Ron..and will add, that in my opinion, a good dom who finds himself wiht a sub who is recovering from childhood abuse, would support the sub in finding professional help..and be an augmentation of that professional help, not a replacement for it..
[21:08] <raven^Ron> Ron: LOL sonja
[21:08] <raven^Ron> good point sonja :)
[21:08] <raven^Ron> I don't believe there is more abuse in D/s Qryz..but I do agree that it can occur more easily in a D/s relationship..and with the advent of the internet, more abusive people are finding their way into D/s becaue they can hide their abuse behind D/s for a while..
[21:09] <raven^Ron> hiya starpearl...wb!! and thanks for the email! :)
[21:09] <Qryz> Therapists NEVER treat their own...so it may be useful to have someone who understands what's going on, but they should never get into the codependency of trying to 'fix' someone
[21:09] <raven^Ron> Ron: Qryz, no they shouldn't ..I agree with you..
[21:10] <raven^Ron> starpearl..we are two people on same keyboard, just so you know..it is ravenshad and Ron (AAhhzz)..
[21:10] <Qryz> agreed raven^Ron - D/s can definitely hide abuse
[21:10] <raven^Ron> what kinds of abuse occur in BDSM?
[21:10] <Roamer`> emotional
[21:10] <ana{Cor}> mental abuse..
[21:10] <Roamer`> mental
[21:10] <raven^Ron> Ron: Physical
[21:10] <{sonja}JP> same kinds that occur in any relationship....
[21:11] <raven^Ron> ok..lets touch on physical...
[21:11] <ana{Cor}> sexual even
[21:11] <Roamer`> {sonja}JP: exactly
[21:11] <{sonja}JP> REALLY
[21:11] <raven^Ron> in many BDSM relationship, there is s/m or b/d play...so how does on differentiate physical abuse from b/d or s/m?
[21:11] <starpearl> yes, i thought so, raven^Ron :) Hello, Sir :)
[21:11] <raven^Ron> I agree with you sonja :)
[21:11] <{sonja}JP> hmmmm sexual abuse - that would be REALLY hard to discern
[21:11] * starpearl kinda a little behind.. sorry
[21:11] <ana{Cor}> not really sonja(but i think raven's doing this one at a time)
[21:11] <Qryz> easy answer - consensual - but if you think about it the sneaky key to abuse is that it *is* consensual
[21:12] <Roamer`> starpearl: no problem :)
[21:12] <raven^Ron> in some cases consent is given at time of collar..blanket consent...but physical abuse can still occur..
[21:12] <Qryz> hmmm....could guilt be the key to abuse?
[21:12] <{sonja}JP> there is a point where a Dom knows what he is doing is abuse
[21:13] <raven^Ron> example: punishing the sub just because you are in the mood for pain play..(literally finding something to hit the sub for)..or hitting the sub for no reason, punishment not play, or punishing for smething the sub did not do..
[21:13] <raven^Ron> those would all be physical abuse in my opinion..
[21:13] <raven^Ron> yes ana..one at a time :)
[21:13] <{sonja}JP> right - and usually they both know it
[21:13] <mizu> just some do not say so
[21:13] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: yes
[21:13] <Qryz> i mean, if it is played as, 'if you really loved me/were a good sub/whatever' to get someone to do something, that would be edging towards abuse in my book...
[21:13] <{sonja}JP> right....
[21:13] <ana{Cor}> well.. I think the difference.. would be.. when it gets to a point.. where the sub is not getting anything BUT anguish out of it.. they no longer feel that it is a good and are constantly feeling .. rotten.. and bad.. and.. hurting
[21:13] <raven^Ron> Ron: maybe not sonja..it could be that he just goes a great deal further than the sub can handle..we all have limits..
[21:14] <raven^Ron> Qryz, yes..using that line is mental abuse..via manipulation..but lets stick to physical for now..
[21:14] <{sonja}JP> but if He does it on accident, that is a mistake that all humans can make
[21:14] <Qryz> sowwy
[21:14] <raven^Ron> I'm taking it one type at a time..so we don't get all confuzzled.. :)
[21:14] <raven^Ron> no problem Qryz :)
[21:14] <{sonja}JP> if He knows he went over the line....
[21:14] <ana{Cor}> I mean.. yes.. there are always going to be times, when your being punished.. and your not happy.. but.. if it's a constant feeling.. how can it be D/s?
[21:14] <raven^Ron> Ron: True..to err is human..to forgive submissive <oops> LOL..but yes errors happen..in such a case, the dom should acknowledge the error and apologize..
[21:15] <raven^Ron> Ron: or make ammends
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> exactly...then it is not abuse, but a mistake
[21:15] <raven^Ron> to me ana, it isn't d/s..
[21:15] * ana{Cor} hushs
[21:15] <raven^Ron> Ron: True.
[21:15] <raven^Ron> sonja: once in a while making a mistake is human..but to do it over and over is not..
[21:15] <raven^Ron> I was referring to doing it over and over..constantly ignoring the limits of the sub..
[21:16] <{sonja}JP> right - and over and over - both parties would know what is going on....
[21:16] <{sonja}JP> and it would be abuse
[21:16] <Roamer`> yes
[21:16] <raven^Ron> I agree with the first part..but not the second..it is often very hard for a victim of abuse to see the abuse clearly..
[21:16] * Qryz nodsnods vehemently
[21:17] <{sonja}JP> thats true...
[21:17] <raven^Ron> the reason fr this is because before physical abuse happens..there is usually mental/emotional abuse..that occurs and sets the person up for the physical..
[21:17] <raven^Ron> making it such that the person believes they deserved it, or must take it..
[21:17] * Qryz was in an abusive vanilla relationship and took a few years to figure it out...
[21:17] <raven^Ron> raven needs to increase her touch typing abilities..
[21:17] <{sonja}JP> <nods> been there done that Qryz
[21:18] <raven^Ron> can someone use the s/m or b/d part of BDSM to hide bieng physically abusive?
[21:18] <ana{Cor}> no.. often.. the abuser.. doesn't see what they are doing as Abuse.. they see it.. as they are doing what they can to keep the sub under control.. the abused, well.. that has alot to do with the mental aspects... if someone is told often enough.. that something is being done for thier own good.. aren't they gonna belive it?
[21:18] <raven^Ron> good point ana..and a correct one as wel..
[21:18] <{sonja}JP> i still think it would be hard to hide that from the getgo, maybe if it developed over time...
[21:19] <raven^Ron> phyiscal abuse in a d/s relationship does occur and usually the sub believes it is being done for their own good..(same as vanilla btw)..
[21:19] <Roamer`> ana{Cor}: good point, ive seen that in a vanilla relationship ......
[21:19] <ana{Cor}> abuse rarely starts out full blown sonja
[21:19] <raven^Ron> yes sonja..I agree..if the relationsip starts out abusive..it can't be hidden..but most abusive relationships don't start out that way...
[21:19] <Qryz> yup they start out reaallll nice...and gradually sneak their way into more and more abuse
[21:19] * ana{Cor} nods.. yes Qryz
[21:20] <raven^Ron> so can someone use the s/m or b/d part of BDSM to hide bieng physically abusive by sayng they are sadist?
[21:20] <ana{Cor}> yes.. of course..
[21:20] <{sonja}JP> people like that make me sick - sorry had to say that!
[21:20] <Qryz> but....and perhaps the sticky point is...many of us in the lifestyle may look at others within the lifestyle and call it abuse...which is even harder t do
[21:20] <mizu> ohhh yea, best way to do it
[21:20] * Roamer` scratches his head ........i suppose they can yes
[21:20] <ana{Cor}> "I like beating you, so you'll take it, because I Like it.. right?"
[21:21] <raven^Ron> I agree sonja..they make me sick too..
[21:21] <raven^Ron> yes ana..
[21:21] <ana{Cor}> and of course you want to make them happy.. so..
[21:21] <Roamer`> Qryz: i agree ....
[21:21] <raven^Ron> Yes Qryz...this is true..so how do you tell abuse from a healthy BDSM relationship?
[21:21] <ana{Cor}> and gradually.. it turns into.. your just taking it.. not actually getting anything out of it
[21:21] <Roamer`> good evening calliope`
[21:21] <{sonja}JP> <------head spinning with all the different paths here.....
[21:22] <Qryz> i think...and this is from watching people around me...its abuse when the sub is isolated from the community, locked into the house, not allowed on the computer, and dissuaded from talking to friends who question what's going on
[21:22] <calliope`> greetings, Roamer`, Sir
[21:22] <raven^Ron> ok...lets all take a deep breath..and calm for a second so we can stay on one path at a time... :)
[21:22] <raven^Ron> (BREAK TIME. 10 minutes and counting <giggle>)
[21:22] <ana{Cor}> constant feeling of.. fucking up.. not being good enough, or doing enough, ever.. depression.. extream loss of self..
[21:23] <raven^Ron> thanks sonja for saying your head was spinning..please anyone, if we are going too fast, say something so we can call a break and refocus ok?
<SNIPPED BREAK TIME >
[21:31] <raven^Ron> ok..(DISCUSSION RESUMES for logging purposes)
[21:31] * raven^Ron recaps
[21:31] <raven^Ron> we are on the path of physical abuse in BDSM relationships..we stated that sometimes people hide physical abuse behind the term "sadist"..agreed that physical abuse can exist...and some examples were given..
[21:32] <raven^Ron> so..next question I have is..
[21:32] <raven^Ron> if you are looking at someone else's relationship, how would you see physical abuse? what would you look for?
[21:32] <raven^Ron> you can't just look for hitting beacuse that exists in the vast majority of bdsm relationships..
[21:32] <{sonja}JP> the "look" in the eyes...
[21:32] <missyli> isolation....
[21:32] <ana{Cor}> a change in character..
[21:33] * ana{Cor} mumbles.. miss raven nicey nice
[21:33] <cher> low self esteem
[21:33] <mizu> total cutting off from friends
[21:33] <Qryz> when the sub is isolated from the community, locked into the house, not allowed on the computer, and dissuaded from talking to friends who question what's going on
[21:33] <cher> dependency on the abusive one
[21:33] * Qryz nodsnods with cher - you should feel stronger and better in a relationship, not crappy
[21:34] <raven^Ron> Ron agrees with all the above..you can't look at just the physical aspects, it's the emotional and mental aspects that makes it abuse. a sub with very high tolerance will take the hits and love it..
[21:34] <raven^Ron> I dont agree with the last part of your statement Ron..but will get back to that..ok one topic at a time...
[21:34] <raven^Ron> the "look" in their eyes..what look sonja?
[21:34] <Qryz> for instance, we have a friend who's a total masochist and is looking to be total slave, no 'romantic' attachment at all...some of the stuff she's done makes me shudder...but is it abuse? i don't think so...not quite sure...but i don't *think* so...
[21:35] <{sonja}JP> one - devoid of love, probably a fearful "ferral" look - seen it before...
[21:35] * Roamer` does not expect a sub to look "cowed"
[21:35] <{sonja}JP> right...
[21:35] <{sonja}JP> "scared of her/his own shadow" look
[21:35] <raven^Ron> the deer in the headlights look?
[21:35] <Roamer`> yah
[21:35] <raven^Ron> ok..that makes sense..
[21:35] <raven^Ron> what other looks in the eyes might be there besides fear?
[21:36] <ana{Cor}> empty
[21:36] <{sonja}JP> well - i get that one quite a bit....Master likes to surprise me *giggle*
[21:36] <raven^Ron> Ron: anger in the sub and the dom
[21:36] <missyli> black and blue ones
[21:36] <raven^Ron> LOL sonja
[21:36] <raven^Ron> that too missyli
[21:36] <ana{Cor}> like they just don't have anything left to give
[21:36] <raven^Ron> yes ana
[21:36] <raven^Ron> raven: devoid of all "life"..any spark that used to be there is gone..there is fear, wariness, caution, and no light..
[21:36] <raven^Ron> as ana called me "miss raven nice nice"
[21:36] <calliope`> the look of the person you used to know screaming inside to be let out again
[21:36] <missyli> but the deer in the headlights look....well many of us wear that often and love it
[21:36] <ana{Cor}> I thought she had lost her Mind
[21:37] <Qryz> its the wariness...the jumpy 'please don't hurt me' abused dog look...
[21:37] <ana{Cor}> she didn't argue with Anyone!!
[21:37] <raven^Ron> there is a differetn "shade" to it missyli..
[21:37] <raven^Ron> yes Qryz..
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> like an abused puppy dog
[21:37] <raven^Ron> no I didn't..
[21:37] <raven^Ron> yes
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> agreed Ron or was that raven?
[21:37] <raven^Ron> Ron BLINKS: she didn't argue with anyone??? are you sure it was raven?
[21:37] <ana{Cor}> she ussually frames Ron's comments with Ron:
[21:37] <raven^Ron> raven..sorry sonja..I don't remember to type my nick in when it is me speaking..
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> 's ok
[21:37] <ana{Cor}> yes Ron.. it was the same person.. but.. it was scary
[21:38] <raven^Ron> so there are alot of "looks" a sub who is abused can have...
[21:38] <raven^Ron> ROn: zoned out
[21:38] <{sonja}JP> ummmm - how bout that - an abused person will likely be afraid to argue with anyone about anything...
[21:38] <ana{Cor}> yes.. zoned out
[21:38] <missyli> i think the withdrawal from any outside contact would be the key for me
[21:38] <ana{Cor}> yes sonja.. for fear that they will be made Wrong, and hurt in different ways for being wrong
[21:38] <cher> a pleading look, one of wanting someone to help them when they are afraid to help themself
[21:38] <raven^Ron> ok..next path..is: isolation..
[21:38] <raven^Ron> that look too cher :)
[21:39] <raven^Ron> what is isolation?
[21:39] <ana{Cor}> you can only talk to who I say you can talk to, when I say you can talk to them, IF I think it's okay
[21:39] <raven^Ron> Ron: Being cut off from everything and everyone else
[21:39] <cher> moving me 100 miles away from my friends and family
[21:39] <ana{Cor}> and that might change tommorrow
[21:39] <missyli> an abuse victim will often isolate themselves..cut off contacts due to fear and shame
[21:39] <Qryz> oops cher that means i'm abusing mizu
[21:39] <mizu> no computer, no phone and can not go anywhere by yourself
[21:39] <raven^Ron> missy, they may isolate themselves by their own choice..or by the abuser's demands/orders..
[21:39] <starpearl> no will or desire to do normal things?
[21:39] <raven^Ron> raven sighs softly, draws a deep breath..yup mizu..
[21:39] <missyli> so it is not always the abuser though....yes Ron..
[21:40] * Qryz is moving mizu 1735 miles from his friends and family and notgiving him transportation
[21:40] <raven^Ron> they may have the desire star, but would lose it because it would not be allowed..
[21:40] <ana{Cor}> thats a good indication starpearl.. who wants to do "normal" things.. when the whole world is falling apart around you
[21:40] <raven^Ron> Ron laughs at Qryz..yeah but he wants to go
[21:40] <Roamer`> Qryz: damm, that means my sub abused ME :)
[21:40] <missyli> besides not being allowed it is too painful to be around those who are happy...and in healthy relationships
[21:40] <Roamer`> Rolling On The Floor LaughING
[21:40] * Qryz giggles at Roamer`
[21:41] <mizu> hey i got my blades, and the sushi place is just over the hill Dear
[21:41] <Qryz> yes dear - but i'm going for sushi twice as often and leaving you at home, remember?
[21:41] <raven^Ron> LOL Roamer
[21:41] <ana{Cor}> and what do you say to "normal" people anyhow? How can you share in thier joy, thier happy times, when .. you have none of your own
[21:41] <raven^Ron> that too missyli
[21:41] <Roamer`> ana{Cor}: good point
[21:41] <mizu> like hell, will chain you to tabby Dear
[21:41] <raven^Ron> good point ana
[21:41] <raven^Ron> LOL mizu
[21:41] <missyli> and to share it makes you feel somehow less...
[21:42] <raven^Ron> raven thinks..
[21:42] * ana{Cor} nods.. yes missy
[21:42] <raven^Ron> (look out raven is thinking, here comes a monsoon)
[21:42] * Qryz nods with missyli - if things happen that you can't tell to people, that's a sign i think...
[21:42] <missyli> take cover!
[21:42] <cher> you feel like the world is going on and you are standing still
[21:42] * Roamer` watcfhes the steam rise from raven's ears
[21:42] <raven^Ron> isolation: the complete and total removal of any contact outside of the dominant. no friends, phne calls, online, nothing..
[21:42] <missyli> and when you tell someone, they will want you to act on your own behalf, and you don't have that left in you to do
[21:43] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: yes .almost like a prison sentence
[21:43] <raven^Ron> by totally isolating the sub, the dom ensures that no one will point out the abuse..and can easily erode the sub's self esteem..
[21:43] <raven^Ron> yes Roamer..very much so..
[21:43] <raven^Ron> true missyli
[21:43] <missyli> and this can be easily cloaked in the terms D/s
[21:43] <raven^Ron> isolation is the first step to a fully abusive relationship...in order to acheive the rest, the sub has to be totally dependent upon the dom..
[21:44] <missyli> but then, there are times when i am isolated totally by Master, and it serves a purpose, and not a negative one
[21:44] <{sonja}JP> but for howlong?
[21:44] <raven^Ron> difference there missy is those times are not the norm for the relationship..they are "once in a while, for a purpose"
[21:44] <Roamer`> missyli: maybe, but it isnt constant is it ?
[21:44] <{sonja}JP> wow - look at all the same wavelengths goin on there...
[21:44] <raven^Ron> LOL sonja
[21:45] <missyli> a few days at most...but the effects can be recalled in an instant, just part of my training
[21:45] <Roamer`> {sonja}JP: hehehe
[21:45] <raven^Ron> so we all basically agree on what isolation is..
[21:46] <missyli> yes
[21:46] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: indeed
[21:46] <raven^Ron> isolation would lead to low self esteem...how?
[21:46] <raven^Ron> (that was next in listing of topics tossed all at once, I am taking them in order..<giggle>)
[21:46] <missyli> when you are totally alone...and made wrong continually, you question yourself, and your sanity as well
[21:47] <raven^Ron> raven nods..
[21:47] <raven^Ron> how can one be "mad wrong continually" though?
[21:47] <raven^Ron> mad=made even
[21:47] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: it leaves the Dom able to re-enforce the "low self" image uninterrupted
[21:47] <raven^Ron> How Roamer?
[21:47] <starpearl> no one else to help bring you up? no social contact especially if you are an extrovert, I think...
[21:47] <{sonja}JP> by being told so.....
[21:47] <missyli> i call it a game called "slap the sub"
[21:47] <raven^Ron> thank you sonja! :)
[21:47] <{sonja}JP> Master said...etc...
[21:48] <missyli> when no matter how hard you work...you fall short continually, the rules keep changing
[21:48] <raven^Ron> that too star, without anyone to say "no that is wrong!" the sub will believe what the dom (only source of feedback) tells them..so yes, no one else to bring you up will be part of it
[21:48] <{sonja}JP> where were those rules??... oh yes, rule #1 - Master is always right - rule #2 if Master is wrong refer to rule #1
[21:48] <cher> you beleive what you hear over and over again....that you are worthless
[21:48] <missyli> and confusion is more prevalant that learning
[21:48] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: we are naturally socaible creature ..we take many of our "cues" about our behaviors from others ....
[21:48] <raven^Ron> Ron: or if the sub continually questions themselves and has no one but the dom to talk to, they will get to the point where they believe whatever the dom tells them..they will stop questioning things because they get in trouble when they do
[21:48] <Roamer`> therefore if we are in a situation whenre we are only being fed "newgative reinforcement" .......
[21:48] <raven^Ron> (I now have ana behind me and will type for her as well..)
[21:48] <raven^Ron> yes cher..
[21:49] <raven^Ron> ana: someone can be made to be wrong all the time by: you tell someone they are wrong often enought and they start actually wondering if they are not wrong. I mean you can only be wrong/bad so often before you start going "Maybe i am"
[21:49] <raven^Ron> raven: makes sense ana..
[21:50] <cher> i began to believe everything i did was wrong
[21:50] <raven^Ron> Ron: falling short continually and changing rules, like missyli said..yes..keep sub confused..makes him/her question themsleves even more..
[21:50] <raven^Ron> me too cher
[21:50] <{sonja}JP> right ana - and then add on top of that no one else around to tell them differently...
[21:50] * lil`dragn has to book out of here problems with family.......Blessed Be and Merry Part all
[21:50] <Qryz> for isntance...constant digs about being fat, not looking good in clothes, pointing at other woman and saying, 'why can't you do/look like/be that?'
[21:50] <raven^Ron> raven: punish the sub for everything they do..and make sure you tell them they are being punished..start punishing the sub for things someone else does as well..that will erode self esteem real fast..
[21:50] <raven^Ron> yes Qryz
[21:51] <raven^Ron> Ron: I believe you are doing this right cher :)
[21:51] <cher> Thank you Sir
[21:51] <{sonja}JP> or more subtle than that.....little things like "i'm hungry" - answered by "well, you ARENT going to blow away or anythign...."
[21:51] <raven^Ron> Correct Roamer, if all one gets is negative reinforcement, then one will believe those negative things are the truth..
[21:51] <raven^Ron> ana: thanks sonja
[21:51] <raven^Ron> Ron: You're welcome
[21:51] <Roamer`> exactly Ron
[21:51] <raven^Ron> yes sonja..subtelty can be just as bad..
[21:51] <missyli> yes sonya...
[21:52] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: subtlety can be worse ...its more insidious
[21:52] <raven^Ron> what about the dom withdrawing..completely and totally (physically, verbally, emotionally) from the sub, for no stated reason for days on end? And never explaining why when/if he comes back??
[21:52] <raven^Ron> yes Roamer
[21:52] <{sonja}JP> oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh that one makes me mad just thinking about it
[21:52] <missyli> for a submissive...i think that kind of dismissal is cruel
[21:53] <raven^Ron> need a break sonja?
[21:53] <cher> even with the abuse, you still pray he comes back
[21:53] <{sonja}JP> no - anger is much better...
[21:53] <raven^Ron> raven needs a break..I'm sorry...can we have a 10 minute break pleaes?
[21:53] <{sonja}JP> sure
[21:53] <Qryz> that's total abuse raven^Ron - but...have a friend who's Dom is lovely but an alcoholic..was dry for a year, lost his job and wife at the same time, totally collapsed drank again, broke off contact with her...to her eyes it was abuse, to his he was just trying to cope with life
[21:53] <raven^Ron> yes cher..and you bust your ass to please him..make him come back..and blame yourself when he doesn't..
[21:53] <{sonja}JP> <-----like i have control - crackin myself up...
[21:54] <cher> or worse, when he does, you let him do anything he chooses to you to keep him there
[21:54] <{sonja}JP> what i hate is that it is sooo easy to see in someone elses relationship, but so difficult to see in your own...
[21:55] <cher> i didn't see it for 8 years
[21:55] * starpearl trying to understand...
[21:55] * Qryz didn't see it for ...umm...about 2 years
[21:55] <{sonja}JP> ooooh - i beatcha cher - 9 years - just kiddin hun 6 months is just as bad!!!
[21:55] <calliope`> i saw it early on, but had been so cut off i didn't know how to get out
[21:55] <raven^Ron> ana: In my mind that is justifiable cause ..but it is not a good reason..but he was an alcoholic...but the reason makes it different from someone who seeks to subjugate or totally control/destroy another on purpose..
[21:56] <starpearl> what is the Dom getting out of doing this.. total control and power? He cant be getting any joy, can he?
[21:56] <raven^Ron> ana: to Qryz's statement above..
[21:56] <raven^Ron> Ron: yes cher
[21:56] <Qryz> and then you despise yourself for being so pathetically grateful to have him back again...
[21:56] <raven^Ron> raven: yes cher..anything he asks...to try and make him happy..make him stsay with you..
[21:56] <cher> i was afraid to be alone, i felt worthless of anyone
[21:57] <Roamer`> starpearl: no, i have seen a few cases like thta ...in each one it always seemed like cowardice on the Dom's part to me
[21:57] <raven^Ron> [21:54] <{sonja}JP> what i hate is that it is sooo easy to see in someone elses relationship, but so difficult to see in your own...
[21:57] <Qryz> but finally...when i said, 'that's it and i mean it' and he kept trying to come back and *i* had the power to say no - i was flying high, and felt like i had taken off a girdle that was trying to change me into a totally different shape...it was a very physical feeling of mental release...
[21:57] <{sonja}JP> boy do i know that feeling Qryz
[21:57] <raven^Ron> raven: sonja I have to agree with that..it is sadly very true..and sometimes, even if the person sees it, they don't have the strength to leave..
[21:58] <raven^Ron> yes Qryz!!!!
[21:58] <{sonja}JP> or they are stopped by a man who says - i will take your children and hide them so you never see them again.........
[21:58] * mizu bows and quietly leaves the room
[21:58] <raven^Ron> raven: It took me seeing him put the same tactics on a friend of mine, to finally get the guts to say that's it.no more..and leave..
[21:59] <cher> it took my 5 year old son cowering in a corner for me to say enough
[21:59] * justliste grumbles
[21:59] <raven^Ron> what is wrong justliste?
[21:59] <Qryz> ta sonja!
[22:01] <raven^Ron> do you think a submissive, by thier very nature, is more suseptible to being abused?
[22:01] <listening> well, i'm new...don't want anyone to think i'm butting in
[22:01] <raven^Ron> Ron: yeah
[22:01] <{sonja}JP> all depends on the person behind the submissive nature...
[22:01] <raven^Ron> raven: butt in listening, that's what this is for..
[22:01] <Roamer`> listening: hehehe, butt away
[22:01] <cher> i am submissive but would no longer accept abuse
[22:01] <raven^Ron> Ron: if for no other reason than abusive people would see a sub as an easy target
[22:01] <{sonja}JP> butts are well-liked here *giggle*
[22:01] <raven^Ron> raven: I agree with Ron..
[22:02] <raven^Ron> raven: I understand that sentiment cher..and will touch upn it again in a moment..
[22:02] <Roamer`> agreed Ron
[22:02] <raven^Ron> LOL sonja
[22:02] <raven^Ron> Ron: LOL sonja..
[22:02] <raven^Ron> Ron: I *really* like raven's butt
[22:02] <raven^Ron> raven: you are biased ROn..LOL
[22:02] * Qryz loves mizu's bonybutt
[22:02] <{sonja}JP> but cher, i think that it is more that you are a survivor of abuse that you wouldnt be abused now....
[22:02] <raven^Ron> ok..enough talking about butts..
[22:02] <Qryz> submissive but not meek...submissive but not a doormat...
[22:02] <raven^Ron> that is not neccessarily true sonja..
[22:02] <{sonja}JP> well - it is for me anywasy
[22:02] <raven^Ron> please let me explain why..
[22:02] <raven^Ron> raven starts typing..
[22:03] <cher> yes sonja, that is why, i have been there and know it isn't part of a healthy relationship
[22:03] * Roamer` politely waits for listening to finish
[22:03] <listening> ??
[22:03] <{sonja}JP> go raven go
[22:03] * ana{Cor} returns
[22:03] <Roamer`> listening: sorry, misread what you typed ......
[22:03] <Roamer`> appologies
[22:03] <raven^Ron> once a person has been abused, they form behavior patterns to deal with the current abuse going on..such as apologize for everything that happens, whether they were to blame or not..in order to placate or prevent an outburst..
[22:04] <listening> lol no problem Sir
[22:04] <raven^Ron> these behavior patterns remain in the person's psyche for ever..
[22:04] <Qryz> i think there are two ways to go after abuse: either you recognize what happened or don't, and then choose to repeat the patterns of abuse or not - and there are reasons to continue with abusers, especially if you don't recognize the pattern...
[22:04] <raven^Ron> a person who has been abused before, unfortunately, is easier to abuse in the future..even if they got psychiatric help to heal the abuse..(I"m not done, hold on please)
[22:04] <ana{Cor}> I don't think you can ever say.. "I won't ever be abused again", you can try, you can watch out for it.. but.. once it's happened, you have that.. ability for it to happen again..
[22:05] <ana{Cor}> (can't find a better for then ability)
[22:05] <Roamer`> scan we slow down a little please .im beginnig to loose the thread
[22:05] <raven^Ron> the reason they are easier in some ways to abuse agiain, is because it is just a matter of tapping into those old behavior patterns again..making them become the norm again..and this can be done over time, by a person who knows how...
[22:05] <raven^Ron> raven stops and scrolls back..yes Roamer
[22:05] * Qryz nodsnods with raven^Ron
[22:05] <Roamer`> thnx ......
[22:05] <raven^Ron> ok..I see what happened..
[22:05] <cher> and an abused person doesn't see that slowly happening again....
[22:05] <raven^Ron> exactly cher!
[22:06] <Roamer`> reading back.......
[22:06] <{sonja}JP> agreed - can go either way - a past=abused person is more likely to be on guard but also has those patterns....
[22:06] <Qryz> its like...my relationship with my mother...we can just push each other's buttons and start screaming (and in some ways its abuse)
[22:06] <cher> then you find yourself in the middle of a abusive relationship again and think you must deserve it
[22:06] * listening has to disagree with cher's last statement...many are more on their guard...sometimes to the point of paranoia about developing new relationships
[22:06] <ana{Cor}> certain.. types of people, are always going to.. "get to you" More then likely
[22:07] <{sonja}JP> i also trained myself OUT of the abuse before i got OUT of the relationship....
[22:07] <{sonja}JP> but different people do things differently...
[22:07] <raven^Ron> ok..everyone hold until Roamer catches up..he's scrolled back..
[22:08] * ana{Cor} grabs something and holds on
[22:09] <Roamer`> back
[22:09] <{sonja}JP> oooohhhh - ana - whatcha holding on to????
[22:09] <Roamer`> nicely timed Ron
[22:09] <raven^Ron> all set Roamer?
[22:09] <{sonja}JP> sorry - inside joke with Master and i - (He is crackin up over there...)
[22:09] <raven^Ron> LOL ana
[22:09] <Roamer`> just about thanks
[22:09] <raven^Ron> raven holds onto Ron's butt..<eg>
[22:09] <raven^Ron> ok Roamer :)
[22:09] <raven^Ron> Ron: Hey!
[22:09] <{sonja}JP> lol
[22:09] <raven^Ron> Ron: A little to the left
[22:10] <ana{Cor}> uhmmmm.. can't tell sonja.. children might be watching.. *wg*
[22:10] <raven^Ron> raven hangs on a little to the left
[22:10] <{sonja}JP> please! - like you're really complaining ron...
[22:10] <raven^Ron> ok..let's touch upon this...training yourself out of abuse..is it possible to completely remove the learned behavior patterns from one's mind>
[22:10] <raven^Ron> ?
[22:10] <Qryz> nope never uh uh
[22:10] <{sonja}JP> not completely - but a lot....
[22:10] <raven^Ron> Ron: I agree listening
[22:11] <ana{Cor}> no, I don't think so, specially when it's behavior that is taught over a long period of time
[22:11] <{sonja}JP> and more with emotional rather than physical...
[22:11] <raven^Ron> Ron: yes some people do get paranoid about new relationships listening..
[22:11] <raven^Ron> raven: ok Ron..we're on a different path, please make aleft turn..blink blink..
[22:11] <cher> im not paranoid, just afraid
[22:11] <{sonja}JP> i feel like i have - but i hope to never have that resolve tested again..
[22:11] <ana{Cor}> you can.. learn to ignore alot of it, but when someone pushs Past that .. your going to fall back into the old behaviors
[22:11] <raven^Ron> raven: I think one can learn new behaviors, but the old is still there and can be brought back under the right circumstances..
[22:12] <raven^Ron> raven: I agree ana..
[22:12] <ana{Cor}> and it's real easy.. once it's happened once.. no matter how self assured you are.. some things will still hit bad places
[22:12] <Roamer`> ana{Cor}: i agree .......
[22:12] <raven^Ron> I believe this, because I had said once "I will never be abused again"..and boy was I ever wrong..the fact that I had been abused before, lent itself to me being abused again...
[22:13] <raven^Ron> yes ana
[22:13] <cher> no different than an alcholic, one can always lapse back no matter how much they say they won't
[22:13] <ana{Cor}> and those "bad places
[22:13] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: i know someone almost exactly like that
[22:13] <raven^Ron> yes cher
[22:13] <ana{Cor}> " spread over time
[22:13] <raven^Ron> yes ana
[22:13] <ana{Cor}> sorry
[22:13] <ana{Cor}> enter key expaneded
[22:13] <Corgan> back :)
[22:13] <raven^Ron> Do you think abusive people look for those who have been abused in thier pasts, either purposely or uncconsciously?
[22:13] <{sonja}JP> set off a train of thought........i think (very personal opinion) that BDSM can be "addictive" like alcohol....can abuse be addictive?
[22:14] <ana{Cor}> YES raven
[22:14] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: sometimes both ......
[22:14] <Corgan> thanks :)
[22:14] <ana{Cor}> who better to knock down, then someone who's already half way there?
[22:14] <raven^Ron> why would they seek someone who wa abused before?
[22:14] <raven^Ron> sonja, wil get your comment next..promise
[22:14] <ana{Cor}> easy target?
[22:14] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: easy traget ......
[22:15] <raven^Ron> Ron: I think they do seek out personality traits, somoene submissive, someone who accepts blame, someone who is eaisly manipulated..
[22:15] <{sonja}JP> nobody said abusers were stupid....of course they would...they prey on the weak to begin with...
[22:15] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: the abusive person i know of, is "addixcted' to his behaviour
[22:15] <raven^Ron> ok..this brings us back to sonja's question..can abuse be addictive?
[22:15] <raven^Ron> Ron: yes
[22:15] <ana{Cor}> yes
[22:15] <raven^Ron> Ron: on both sides
[22:15] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: very much so
[22:15] <Qryz> yupyup
[22:15] <cher> yes
[22:15] <raven^Ron> raven: yes I think so..as much as I hate to say it..yes..
[22:15] <Roamer`> for both
[22:16] <raven^Ron> how is it addictive?
[22:16] <ana{Cor}> I don't think it's a consious thing on most cases..
[22:16] <{sonja}JP> now we are getting scary
[22:16] <raven^Ron> Ron: do we need to take a break sonja? or is it just scaring you that everyone is agreeing? <smile warmly>
[22:16] <ana{Cor}> but.. abused people.. somehow belive.. that the person that abused them, Loved them.. and that if a person is Not abusing them, they aren't loved
[22:16] <Qryz> "now" we're getting scary?
[22:16] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: for the abuser .i think its the power .......
[22:17] <cher> ana, i agree
[22:17] <raven^Ron> yes ana..a victim can indeed confuse abuse with love...
[22:17] <Roamer`> (in the case i know of .i KNOW its the power)
[22:17] <raven^Ron> we been scary all along Qryz??
[22:17] * Qryz thinks it is a small step from thinking...if he doesn't get an erection he's not attracted to me to if he doesn't beat me to get his erection/pay attention then he doesn't care...
[22:17] <raven^Ron> Ron: It can be a very heavy rush to be that much in control..yes Roamer
[22:17] <{sonja}JP> scaring me that ..... just scary to really contemplate...... hate to think of myself as "fooling myself"
[22:17] <ana{Cor}> it hasn't been the.. nicest set of topics raven.. importaint to discuss.. but not nice
[22:17] <raven^Ron> yes..a very small step Qryz
[22:18] <raven^Ron> raven; I can understand that sonja..
[22:18] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: actually in this particular case ....its done to bolster a very weak self image .........
[22:18] <raven^Ron> true ana.not nice..
[22:18] <Qryz> we're a fairly random (some selfselection from computer literacy/topic selection) group of intelligent people...most of whom have been abused or know those that have been...hard to think its 'that' prevalent
[22:18] <cher> sonja, after my husband died i became involved with an abusive man again, but this time got out before it was too late
[22:18] <ana{Cor}> I don't think it's fooling yourself sonja.. if you didn't belive you were strong enough to withstand it, it would be so much easier to fall into it again.. but.. saying that it will never happen again.. is just another sort of trap..
[22:18] <raven^Ron> raven: sometimes Qryz, I'm not sure if it is that prevelant or if the definition of what is abuse has become so broad that just about anything fits in it now..
[22:19] <raven^Ron> Ron: yes ana
[22:19] * Qryz screams....a ninny sub has recently started posting to our local group in the third person....i just asked her why and she said, 'i'm trying to be lowly' WHAT THE F*UCK???????????
[22:19] <raven^Ron> cher, good point, the past can be of benefit in that it can make abuse easier to see and easier to get out of..
[22:19] <{sonja}JP> well, like i said, i am just hopeful that i never have to test that ...
[22:19] <raven^Ron> that's another topic Qryz.. LOL
[22:20] <Qryz> gawd there's nothing i hate more than ninnies
[22:20] <Qryz> well..except for intolerant ninnies *g*
[22:20] <Roamer`> raven^Ron: good topic for further discussion tho
[22:20] * ana{Cor} smiles
[22:20] <raven^Ron> it will be discussed on the 13th of OCtober when I bring up the topic of Gor..third person speech is part of that...<DUCKS>
[22:20] <{sonja}JP> yikes - actually it sounds on topic......could she be tyring to be "lowly" cause she is abused?
[22:20] * Roamer` is extremely tolerant .except for ppl who piss me off
[22:20] * ana{Cor} laughs.. ducks?
[22:21] <raven^Ron> Ron: possibly sonja, or possibly because she seeks abuse..
[22:21] <ana{Cor}> duck duck duck duck duck duck.. goose!
[22:21] <Roamer`> Gor ?
[22:21] <ana{Cor}> yep, gor
[22:21] <Roamer`> of yeah, the books
[22:21] <Roamer`> k
[22:21] <raven^Ron> it is possible that she uses third person because her dom told her that is a way for a sub to show their "humility" and "submissiveness" whihc is "lower than dominance" ..through words online..by using third person..
[22:21] <{sonja}JP> i am supposed to be trying to get those books.....
[22:22] <raven^Ron> however, it could be an instrument of abuse, to lower one's self esteem..by removing their identify of themsleves as an individual..
[22:25] <raven^Ron> What are self esteem issues?
[22:25] <raven^Ron> Ron: self esteem is where I think we can most clearly see where a relationship has gotten abusive..because taht will show even more than the marks, I mean the marks could just be heavy play
[22:26] <raven^Ron> raven: I agree Ron..a complete loss of, or an obvious lowering of self esteem in a sub oculd be a sign that the sub is being abused..because a d/s relationship is supposed to enhance the sub and the dom..if it is doing the opposite something is wrong.
[22:27] * starpearl doesn't see how a Dom could be happy if a sub isnt
[22:27] <{sonja}JP> i see that in a lot of Large subs....when they say that they dont feel comfortable with their masters, naked....kinda bothers me
[22:27] * ana{Cor} thinks it's amusing to watch raven^Ron talk to themself
[22:28] <raven^Ron> star, I don't think a dom would be happy if the sub wasn't..but an abusive person is not seeking happiness, they are seeking total control of the victim..usually because they don't believe they are good enough but they'll never admit that..
[22:28] <starpearl> but then, i dont see a lot of things....
[22:28] <raven^Ron> yes sonja...
[22:28] <raven^Ron> LOL ana
[22:28] <raven^Ron> which brings us to...why do you think an abusive person is abusive, what makes them do it?
[22:29] <ana{Cor}> power..
[22:29] <cher> their low self esteem
[22:29] <listening> insecurity
[22:29] <raven^Ron> ROn: yes yes and yes
[22:29] <Qryz> ah...ninny sub says that former master (an idiot) told her subs are inferior and property
[22:29] <ana{Cor}> they feel week.. so they have to have control of someone else to prove how .. good they are
[22:29] <raven^Ron> ninny sub needs help
[22:29] <starpearl> wanting to tear down another to boost themself?
[22:29] <raven^Ron> yes ana
[22:29] <raven^Ron> yes star..
[22:29] <listening> exactly, star...its the only place they can get their power
[22:30] * starpearl beams brightly :)
[22:30] <cher> my husband was abused as a child and his abusing me gave him the power he didn't have as a child
[22:30] <raven^Ron> what about those who abuse because they grew upin an abusive home..so to them it is normal and not being done out of any power seeking?
[22:30] <Qryz> hey raven - can i invite ninnysub to join dom_sub?
[22:30] * listening nods at cher
[22:30] <raven^Ron> yes!
[22:30] <raven^Ron> that is probably true cher :)
[22:30] <raven^Ron> that yes! was to Qryz
[22:30] <listening> exactly...you can't have any self-esteem growing up in an abusive household
[22:31] <ana{Cor}> thats different raven.. i think those behaviours can be retaught
[22:31] <ana{Cor}> errr.. fixed?
[22:31] <raven^Ron> true listening
[22:31] <raven^Ron> maybe ana..but then, only if the person realizes they need to relearn the stuff..
[22:31] <listening> that is what finally got ME out of my situation...when i realized my girls were going to grow up like that...or looking for someone like their father
[22:31] <cher> my husband also did alot of time in prison which stripped all his power, which made him even more abusive to me
[22:32] <raven^Ron> and the person may not realize it, until they have abused someone else..and suddenly everone is telling them how wrong they are...
[22:32] <raven^Ron> forcing them to think that maybe they were..
[22:32] * Qryz congratulates listening - that's a powerful thing!
[22:32] <raven^Ron> yes..that will do it listening..:))
[22:32] <raven^Ron> yes cher..
[22:33] <starpearl> must have been hard, listening. i commend your intergity.
[22:34] <listening> its insane...and the testament to how powerful the abuse and isolation can be...a coma didn't make me leave...but realizing one of my girls might marry someone like him had me out of there in a heartbeat =(
[22:34] <Qryz> but...some woman don't even get out with that...so GOOD for you!
[22:34] <raven^Ron> it's usually something more than self protection that gets a victim to leave an abusive relationship..
[22:34] <{sonja}JP> Master wishes to say something.....
[22:34] <listening> nods
[22:34] <raven^Ron> either thier children..or something similar
[22:34] <raven^Ron> sure sonja
[22:34] <{sonja}JP> typing for Him....
[22:35] <raven^Ron> ok
[22:35] <{sonja}JP> He wishes all the women here good luck in finding stable relationships - He is saddened to see all the "voices" raised that are so similar to mine
[22:35] <{sonja}JP> He is so cute - wants to save the world He does....
[22:35] <raven^Ron> thank you JP .. :)
[22:36] <raven^Ron> so does Ron..:)
[22:36] * ana{Cor} smiles and waves to JP
[22:36] <{sonja}JP> and He says - Not All men are Assholes!!!!
[22:36] * ana{Cor} laughs
[22:36] <raven^Ron> sonja, I think anyone who is a decent caring person wants to save the world in this way.. :)
[22:36] <ana{Cor}> no, not all of them are
[22:36] <raven^Ron> he's right..they're not..<giggle>
[22:36] <raven^Ron> which brings me to this...can women be abusive in a relationship?
[22:36] * listening smiles...thank you Sir
[22:36] <ana{Cor}> yes
[22:36] <cher> my friend bought me a bumper sticker that said "asshole magnent"
[22:36] <{sonja}JP> good Lord YES - my sister is one....
[22:36] <raven^Ron> LOL cher..that's cool!
[22:36] <ana{Cor}> ussually more on the emotional mental levels I think
[22:37] <ana{Cor}> a few words can tear someone down just as fast as kicking them
[22:37] <raven^Ron> I know the answer to this but I know someone reading this log will ask themselves this question..How can a woman abuse a man?
[22:37] <raven^Ron> yes ana..
[22:37] <cher> yes, i have a male freind who was abused mentally and physically, but was too embarrased to do anthing about it
[22:38] <raven^Ron> I have a couple like that cher..and if you tell them they are bieng abused, they don't believe it..
[22:38] <{sonja}JP> the same way - and especially with mental abuse - women are probably better at it than men...
[22:38] <raven^Ron> do you think, that in the case of male victims of abuse, they deny it longer due to male pride? (Male pride meaning that they are supposed to be strong, the fighter, unbreakable all that)
[22:38] <raven^Ron> how so sonja?
[22:38] * listening nods
[22:38] <ana{Cor}> "Your Worthless, you can't stand up for yourself, you don't know how to use whats between your legs, no balls, you can't satisfy anyone, you can't get a decent job, you can't support your family".. men (alot of men) rely on certain.. norms
[22:38] <cher> very much so....the cops out here laughed at this male friend when he finally had to call them
[22:39] <ana{Cor}> that they protect thier family, support them, give them what they need, are good providers..
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> really - catch em wiht the "no balls" comment....
[22:39] <raven^Ron> Ron returns and adds: I can save the world..they're just not giving me enough money to do it..at least I can save 9 people at a time..
[22:39] <ana{Cor}> and any.. blows to that.. are going to hurt
[22:39] <raven^Ron> raven nods..
[22:39] <{sonja}JP> my sister HEAPS on her husband - and HEAPED on her last husband.....and smacks em around -even though they are/were much bigger than her
[22:39] <ana{Cor}> just like with a woman, your hurt them enough.. and.. well.. they give up
[22:40] <raven^Ron> true ana..
[22:40] <raven^Ron> yes sonja..
[22:40] <raven^Ron> do you think that a woman would get away with hitting a man because of the old saying "Never hit a woman"..if the man were "old school"?
[22:40] <ana{Cor}> different words.. but it all comes down to the same thing, your worthless/bad/wrong
[22:40] <ana{Cor}> YES
[22:41] <raven^Ron> I see old movies..women slap men constantly..
[22:41] <raven^Ron> is that abusive?
[22:41] <{sonja}JP> everyone always says.....if her husband ever has enough - he will kill her - but she gets them so cowed....(6'3 - 280 lbs cowed man)
[22:41] <{sonja}JP> depends on why the slap...
[22:41] <raven^Ron> yup...defeat someone mentally/emotionally and the physical follows..
[22:41] <raven^Ron> what would be an abusive slap from a woman to a man?
[22:42] <listening> may i ask a question?
[22:42] <raven^Ron> sure listening...
[22:42] <listening> i was wondering how those who have been in abusive nilla relationships reconcile the bdsm aspects of the relationships they might be in now?
[22:42] <listening> i had a horrible time with it
[22:43] <ana{Cor}> isn't anything, that actually harms a person, physically, mentally, emotionally, abuse? (not hurt, hell.. you can Hurt someone with a spanking, but thier butt will be okay soon enough)
[22:43] <cher> i am just entering into a d/s relationship and scared as hell
[22:43] <raven^Ron> I had a very ahrd time at first listening..wondering if I was craving BDSM out of some unconscious need to abuse myself...but I was able to think back and remember that I have always been kinky sexually, and have always preferred a more docile role in a relationship..prior to being involved in an abusive vanilla one..
[22:44] <raven^Ron> for me, my submissive personality, made my first marriage (abusive vanilla) possible as far as the abuse is concerned..
[22:44] <raven^Ron> ana, wouldn't the hurt have to be long lasting? not just a temporary inconvenience pain like a spanking...
[22:44] * listening nods to raven
[22:45] <ana{Cor}> thats why I said Harm.. not hurt
[22:45] <ana{Cor}> hurt is different
[22:45] <{sonja}JP> same here - i was trying to submit to someone who was incapable of being a Dom (neither of us KNEW) but He was taking advantage of what we all thought was just my "personality"
[22:45] <listening> yes!
[22:45] <raven^Ron> Ron: to reconcile it: was the abusive relatinsip loving? is the BDSM relationship loving? ...do they build you up or tear you down? the answers to those questions can reconcile the need for bdsm and past abuse..
[22:46] <{sonja}JP> Exactly Ron - that is the diff for me...
[22:46] <EZRiser> interesting topic tonite, and experiences .. but 5 comes too early in the AM for me .. night all
[22:46] <raven^Ron> sorry ana..I missed the "harm"
[22:46] <listening> i think the hardest time i had was with the bdsm play...not so much the submissive nature
[22:46] <raven^Ron> sleep well EZ
[22:46] <raven^Ron> Ron: NIght EZ
[22:46] <listening> be well, EZ
[22:46] <ana{Cor}> harming, meaning, they kill all joy in you - hurt: it's mutual pleasure <grin>
[22:46] <starpearl> good night, Sir
[22:46] <ana{Cor}> night EZ :)
[22:46] <raven^Ron> Ron; was your past abuse more physical than mental listening?
[[22:46] <raven^Ron> understood it when you explained it gf..thanks :)
[22:46] * ana{Cor} giggles
[22:47] * ana{Cor} is feeling rather babblish tonight
<rest of log snipped due to personal content and requests to remove it for privacy>
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