Presents:
BDSM Discussion 28
What Is
Lifestyle BDSM?
All Comments Posted Here With Permission Of The Participants
Session Start:
Sun Aug 20 20:29:25 2000
[20:29] *** Now talking in #leather_and_roses
[21:02] * Ron-raven says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions on BDSM the following rules apply..
[21:02] <Ron-raven> you must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave. Legal age being 18 or 21 depending on your location
[21:02] <Ron-raven> no trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night
[21:02] <Ron-raven> be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[21:02] <Ron-raven> all statements are publishable on the web site, with nicks changed (at your request, email webmaster@leathernroses.com if you don't want your nick used.) If an email request is not recieved, that will be taken as consent to post the log in it's entirety using the nicknames.
[21:02] * Ron-raven blinks....I think she has popups forever in here
[21:03] <AlstrBlck> heheheheh have you tried her alt-f4 pop up yet? <EG>
[21:03] <Ron-raven> Ok....lets begin....what is a Lifestyle?
[21:05] <LAR^> Lifestyle: A way that a person chooses to live their life. And yes, regardless of what you are born it IS a choice.
[21:06] * LAR^ has kidling here so will be in and out
[21:06] * Ron-raven nods....Anything to add AB
[21:06] * ayli listens
[21:07] * AlstrBlck realizes he's not paying attention again.
[21:07] <LAR^> And by living I mean how they preceive and relate to their place in the world as well
[21:07] <ayli> how is living bdsm going to make you relate differently to the word?
[21:07] <AlstrBlck> um, what's the discussion about again?
[21:07] <Ron-raven> Yes...it is a choice....
[21:08] <Ron-raven> A BDSM Lifestyle
[21:08] <AlstrBlck> oh, ok... you perceive things differently. You don't go to bars looking for a woman who you can envision yourself marrying, having 2.4 kids, the all-american family.
[21:08] <LAR^> ayli, constantly does. A large part of a person's identity is wrapped up in the roles they live. So being in a D/s relationship, I perceive the actions of others by those standards
[21:08] <LAR^> AB, I want all that too
[21:08] * ayli smiles
[21:09] <ayli> I just put it out for discussion!
[21:09] <{sonja}JP> AB - why not?
[21:09] * LAR^ at this point will have to bow out since I have about half an hour with my kid. I will be back around 11:30 EST
[21:10] <ayli> why is 2.5 kids and an all american family OUT if your living a lifestyle that includes bdsm?
[21:10] <AlstrBlck> because it doesn't work, sonja. When you live your life in one style, you can't expect to switch to another.
[21:10] <AlstrBlck> because with the kids, you worry about them finding out, you worry about your in-laws finding out, etc.
[21:11] <{sonja}JP> i have 2 kids, Master has 1....
[21:11] <AlstrBlck> I am, of course, refering to someone who's devoted their life, more or less, to living like this.
[21:11] <ayli> that doesn't rule out children does it?
[21:11] <{sonja}JP> they see mommy being very respectful
[21:11] * ayli tilts her head
[21:11] <{sonja}JP> thats all
[21:11] <AlstrBlck> no, doesn't rule out children ayli.
[21:11] <Ron-raven> It doesnt have to be that way AB......there are 4 kids in this household.....5 if you count ayli.......6 if you count risan......7 if you cound Jeff....my little brother
[21:11] <{sonja}JP> anymore than in any other relationship, where the kids wouldnt see the sex
[21:11] <{sonja}JP> they dont see the spanking...
[21:11] <ayli> WAIT A MINUTE
[21:12] <ayli> ayli is NOT a child!!!
[21:12] <{sonja}JP> lol
[21:12] * ayli frowns.. hearing the voice behind her..
[21:12] <Ron-raven> Ok....Your not a child....
[21:12] <ayli> and I don't need spankings either.. I'm good
[21:12] * Ron-raven reserves judgemnt on that one
[21:13] *** Ron-raven is now known as raven-Ron
[21:13] <{sonja}JP> ooops
[21:13] * ayli laughs
[21:13] <ayli> i'm good.. I really am.. I just never say at what
[21:14] <{sonja}JP> so, why does devoting onesself to this lifestyle take it out of the realm of the marriage, 2.5 kids, dog, and station wagon?
[21:14] <raven-Ron> ok....having children does change the way one lives this lifestyle, however that is a whole nother topic...
[21:14] <{sonja}JP> <-----confused
[21:14] <raven-Ron> I don't think it does sonja..just have to be more creative with it...
[21:14] <{sonja}JP> true
[21:14] <raven-Ron> ok, what exactly do you think living this lifestyle entails?
[21:14] <AlstrBlck> <ROFL>
[21:15] <raven-Ron> people..please
[21:15] <AlstrBlck> sorry.
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> having some sort of power exchange...
[21:15] <ayli> sorry raven
[21:15] <raven-Ron> raven is at the keyboard..
[21:15] * ananda{R} thinks most folks define the lifestyle individually
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> we see THAT
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> but some basics....
[21:15] <raven-Ron> some sort of power exchange, so would that mean that those who exchange power every third tuesday of the month for one hour, live a BDSM lifestyle?
[21:15] <ananda{R}> for Roamer and I, it is kept private
[21:15] <raven-Ron> or do they just "dip" into one for a little while?
[21:16] <ananda{R}> hmmm, good questions r-R
[21:16] <ayli> no.. it would be constant.. I think
[21:16] <{sonja}JP> i was referring to total or "not total"
[21:16] <ananda{R}> some people keep BDSM strictly as a sexual thing
[21:16] <{sonja}JP> the varying degrees of a power exchange, but constant
[21:16] <raven-Ron> raven: I think that in order for it to be living a bdsm lifestyle, the power exchange, at whatever level, must be present on a daily basis, outside the bedroom, and be part of the basis for the relationship...
[21:16] <ananda{R}> others like Roamer and I, it is our lifestyle
[21:17] * ananda{R} agrees
[21:18] <raven-Ron> Ron: I agree that so long as there is a power exchange, it is a lifestyle...as long as it's consistent, not off again on again
[21:18] <raven-Ron> raven: ok..so would every third tuesday of the month be "consistent'?
[21:18] <{sonja}JP> me too!!!
[21:18] <{sonja}JP> no
[21:18] <raven-Ron> Ron: no becaues that would be on again off again..only every thid teusday
[21:18] <ananda{R}> it probably is to the couple who does it, they may use BDSM only in the bedroom for sexual pleasure
[21:18] <raven-Ron> ok..so we can agree that to live a BDSM lifestyle, one must have some level of power exchange present in every day life?
[21:18] <{sonja}JP> i think the PE would have to be every day
[21:19] <ayli> yes I think so
[21:19] <raven-Ron> yes
[21:19] <raven-Ron> Ron: yes
[21:19] <{sonja}JP> but the diff is, not everyone has a TOTAL PE, for some it is very slight
[21:19] <raven-Ron> true sonja
[21:19] <raven-Ron> Ron: yes
[21:20] <raven-Ron> what are some ways that lifestyle BDSM differs from off/on bdsm?
[21:20] <raven-Ron> Ron: because the power exchange is consistent, constant, not just something done for fun, like summer vacations
[21:20] <raven-Ron> raven: ok
[21:20] <ananda{R}> probably lifestyler's have more of a routine?
[21:20] <raven-Ron> probably ananda...
[21:21] <raven-Ron> Ron: yeah we're stuck in a rut LOL
[21:21] <ananda{R}> in our case, our contract has the basics laid out
[21:21] <ananda{R}> we don't waver from it
[21:21] <ayli> a rut?
[21:21] <{sonja}JP> possibly the diff between someone who is truly submissive/Dominant and someone who likes to play?
[21:21] <raven-Ron> raven: could be sonja
[21:21] <{sonja}JP> i think...if you are truly sub - you want it to be constant
[21:22] <ananda{R}> possibly, we don't "play" alot...but it is clear who is Sub and who is Dom
[21:22] <raven-Ron> Ron: contracts are good, but not neccessary for all people. though I can see where it would be a good thing when starting a relationship to have a contract..
[21:22] <{sonja}JP> could be different for the Doms (dont know - not one)
[21:22] <raven-Ron> yes soja
[21:22] <raven-Ron> raven: exactly ananda
[21:22] <ayli> you know who you are, you don't need someone else to inform you
[21:22] <raven-Ron> raven: to me, living the lifestyle does not depend on how frequently one "plays" but on the quiet knowledge of who is in charge..who holds the control..
[21:22] <ayli> err.. keep you informed
[21:23] <raven-Ron> good point ayli..
[21:23] <ananda{R}> I agree, raven
[21:23] <raven-Ron> Ron: exactly ayli
[21:23] <{sonja}JP> we went from a contract with rules and limits and safewords when we were very first learning to a TPE - no safeword
[21:23] <raven-Ron> Ron: A lifestyle is who you are, not what you do or how you do it or how often
[21:23] * ayli nods
[21:23] <{sonja}JP> well said
[21:23] <raven-Ron> raven: I thought a lifestyle was the things you did in your daily life..like a rich person's lifestyle would mean lots of expensive clothes, trips and such...
[21:23] <ananda{R}> our contract is a basic outline of the relationship we chose to have...not specific details, but a good refernce point for us
[21:23] <raven-Ron> Ron: It could be taken to mean that
[21:24] <ananda{R}> good point raven
[21:24] <raven-Ron> raven: I can see where that would be of great benefit, to me ananda, that makes it lifestyle..the power exchange as evidenced in the contract, is the basis for the relationship...
[21:24] <ananda{R}> exactly
[21:25] <raven-Ron> raven: Does living the lifestyle make us different/better than anyone else?
[21:25] <{sonja}JP> ok - so the way a person thinks?? - i live this lifestyle because i am in constant submission to my Master, whether or not there is any EVENT to be submissive in...
[21:25] <ananda{R}> I don't think so
[21:25] <raven-Ron> Ron: no it doesn't, but it does make us who we are
[21:25] <{sonja}JP> no
[21:25] <raven-Ron> raven: I don't think it makes us better..just different...
[21:25] <ananda{R}> good point sonja
[21:25] <gervaise_> raven: no it doesn't but it might make us more secure
[21:25] <ananda{R}> reminds me of a funny quote I saw once..."We are all unique, just like everyone else"
[21:26] <raven-Ron> yes sonja...because everything you do for the master can be seen as a submissive act..be it something to make him smile, or something that he orders you to do...
[21:26] <raven-Ron> Ron: gervaise_, good point
[21:26] <raven-Ron> LOL ananda
[21:26] <raven-Ron> Ron: LOL ananda
[21:26] * ayli nods nods nods.. yes
[21:27] <{sonja}JP> exactly
[21:27] <ayli> taking care of the house, the children, doing a good job at anything, to make your dominant happy would be considered a submissive act as far as I'm concered..
[21:27] * ananda{R} feels that her marriage is more secure since it was clearly defined how we wanted to live it ....of course we will change and grow, but we defined what we wanted together.....makes me feel more secure
[21:27] <raven-Ron> raven: a sub is not just submisive when he/she plays...but the mindset is submissive, specially for a service sub.that mindset is to please thier dominant..so actions dne from this mindset would be submissive...
[21:27] <raven-Ron> raven: I agree ayli, but then, I'm a service sub too...
[21:27] <raven-Ron> Ron: yes ayli
[21:27] <raven-Ron> raven: ananda, that makes sense to me...:)
[21:27] <ananda{R}> what is a service sub?
[21:28] <raven-Ron> Ron: I'm happy for you ananda
[21:28] <ananda{R}> thank you Ron
[21:28] <raven-Ron> raven: a service sub would be a submissive that focuses on serving the dominant in all ways, not just sexual..such as keeping the house, ironing his clothes, giving him a back rub..focus being to make him happy or make his/her life easier...
[21:29] <raven-Ron> Ron: but I don't want you ironing my clothes
[21:29] <raven-Ron> !
[21:29] * ananda{R} understands and determines she is one of those, less the ironing...do as little of that as possible!
[21:29] <raven-Ron> raven: fine with me..your butt wiggles very nicely when you iron..so I'll just watch you do it.. <giggle>
[21:29] <{sonja}JP> so what is the diff between a service sub and a slave? that last little bit of control?
[21:29] <gervaise_> i agree, ananda
[21:29] <raven-Ron> raven: that..and probably mindset as well sonja
[21:30] <{sonja}JP> ah
[21:30] <raven-Ron> most subs that life the BDSM lifestyle on a daily basis are service subs...the focus is not just on sexual things...but on daily plesaing of the dominant..
[21:30] <ananda{R}> interesting though, Roamer does as much as he can to make my life easier, i.e. making me a morning bath, rubbing my feet, etc etc...caring for me as well
[21:31] <raven-Ron> raven: that is a good dominant in my opinion ananda..shows he cares for you and will take care of you...with that kind of give and take, it is alot more satisfying for everyone...
[21:31] <raven-Ron> Ron: agrees with ananda and raven
[21:31] <ananda{R}> it works well for us
[21:31] <ayli> isn't caring for your submissive, taking care of who takes care of you?
[21:31] <{sonja}JP> in agreement
[21:31] * ananda{R} smiles...uh huh, ayli
[21:31] <raven-Ron> raven: it is to me ayli..but to some, doing things for the sub is "undomlike"..
[21:31] <raven-Ron> Ron: or in my case, it's taking care of those I love..
[21:31] * ananda{R} has met those types raven
[21:31] <{sonja}JP> and some subs prefer that
[21:32] <{sonja}JP> <-------not this one, mind yall
[21:32] <raven-Ron> raven: Some people think caring for the sub is to take awy the control of the dom..
[21:32] <raven-Ron> raven: you're right sonja, some subs prefer that...
[21:32] <raven-Ron> <giggle> no problem sonja...:)
[21:32] <ananda{R}> interesting thing for me....that before I "came out" in the lifestyle...I was a service oriented individual,,,,being in the "lifestyle" I have expanded the "play" areas, the service part has been natural all along
[21:32] * ayli tilts her head
[21:32] <raven-Ron> raven: yes..me too ananda..
[21:32] <{sonja}JP> if i jump up to get Master something to drink - without Him asking/ordering, who controlled that?
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> anada - same here
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> ananda even
[21:33] <ananda{R}> not sure what you mean sonja
[21:33] <ayli> He did
[21:33] <raven-Ron> raven: the master did...you did it because you knew it would make him happy at that time..the actual control of the act itself was yours..as you made the decision to get the water..but the intention behind it would be for the dominant..
[21:33] * ayli smiles.. what raven said
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> i was in a similar situation ananda
[21:34] <{sonja}JP> ah - ok
[21:34] <ananda{R}> ah, good point raven.....makes perfect sense
[21:34] <{sonja}JP> that was a dog chasing tail problem i have thought about for a while
[21:34] <ananda{R}> knowing what the Dom wants before asking,,,,sounds very lifestylish
[21:34] <raven-Ron> Ron: and on the flip side ananda, I've always been dominant, like you, coming out has just expanded my play areas
[21:34] <ananda{R}> same for Roamer, Ron
[21:35] <ayli> doesn't everyone's .. horizons expand
[21:35] <ayli> oh that came out badly.. but..
[21:35] <raven-Ron> raven: not just that Ron..it has expanded more than play areas..it has expanded your knowledge of domination so that you are more comfortable with it, to the point where you no longer "request"..you expect and demand as neccessary...
[21:35] <raven-Ron> raven: yes..horizons do expand..
[21:35] <raven-Ron> Ron: yes ayli
[21:36] * ayli tilts her head.. it seems.. that everyone.. has things.. that they grow more comortable with.. after time with a dominant or submissive
[21:36] <raven-Ron> raven: would you find life less satisfying if you did not live the lifestyle?
[21:36] <ayli> your .. willingness to try different things comes with the trust
[21:36] <raven-Ron> raven: yes ayli..
[21:36] <ananda{R}> most definitely, raven
[21:36] <{sonja}JP> YeS!!! - i did
[21:36] <ananda{R}> would not have agreed to a vanilla lifestyle
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> not just less satisfying, but stultifying
[21:37] <raven-Ron> raven: I would be a great deal less satisfied..with myself and life in general..big empty spot inside me..
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> and boring and stiffling
[21:37] * ayli nods..
[21:37] <raven-Ron> Ron: I guess you are happier now sonja?
[21:37] <raven-Ron> raven: yes ananda
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> i think that is where the "freedom of submission" comes in
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> oh LORD YES!
[21:37] * raven-Ron listens to sonja...
[21:37] <raven-Ron> freedom of submission?
[21:37] <raven-Ron> Oh!!
[21:38] <raven-Ron> ok..I get it
[21:38] <{sonja}JP> i was crazy trying to "submit" to a man who was not at all a Dom
[21:38] <raven-Ron> the a perosn is freed inside themselves, through submission..
[21:38] <raven-Ron> sorry..my mind is slow tongiht.. :(
[21:38] <ananda{R}> when you have the ability to be yourself, it is incredibly freeing, a spiritual experience in my case
[21:38] <{sonja}JP> freed to be what they are
[21:38] <raven-Ron> raven; I agree sonja..freedom through submission comes into play here...
[21:38] <raven-Ron> yes :))
[21:38] <raven-Ron> raven: if you try to hide it however, well..lets just say life sucks ...
[21:39] <{sonja}JP> either way, it sux
[21:39] * ayli laughs
[21:39] <{sonja}JP> i gots ta be free ta be me :-)
[21:39] <raven-Ron> Ron: there is freedom through dominance as well..not having to obey the strictures of "societies" expected lifestyle, and realizing that there are thse who will accept what you say and submit to yur demands...
[21:39] <ananda{R}> truly, life is a journey...nice to know when you are headed in the right direction.....for me being in teh lifestyle really helped me find my self emotionally and intellectually and spiritually
[21:39] <{sonja}JP> right - but more people understand that train of thought
[21:40] <raven-Ron> Ron: I am a gentleman, no doubt about it, I think ladies are wonderfulb eautiful intelligent caring blah blah blah, but there comes a time when I want what I want ..and I will have it..one way or another...
[21:40] <raven-Ron> raven: I agree ananda...
[21:40] <{sonja}JP> so confused....did this man claim to be NOT Dominant earlier or was i mis reading something?
[21:40] * ayli laughs
[21:40] <raven-Ron> raven: he has claimed that for years sonja!!
[21:40] <ayli> once apon a time I blive he did!
[21:40] <{sonja}JP> bad bad boy
[21:40] <ayli> but you should SEEE the klingon boy look
[21:41] * ayli shudders and climbs under a chair
[21:41] <{sonja}JP> lol
[21:41] <raven-Ron> raven remembers the first time she met Ron..he insisted (very dominant like) "I *AM* NOT DOM!!!!!!!" (klingon boy look)
[21:41] <{sonja}JP> esplain klingon boy look pls...
[21:41] <raven-Ron> Ron: I had it in my head, leather chaps, whips chains, bleeding and all that..typical stereotype...
[21:41] <AlstrBlck> hell, sonja, ask ayli about me. I'll sit there and play a fool to make you laugh.
[21:41] <raven-Ron> raven: his forhead gets all wrinkled..eyebrows coming together in the middle..and his eyes get DARK..very serious...
[21:42] <ayli> AB can be very silly.. but he's.. capable of.. uhmmm.. semi klingon boy look
[21:42] <ayli> of his own version of course
[21:42] <{sonja}JP> ahhhh...the LOOK - i love that look - gives me the tremors when Master does it
[21:42] <AlstrBlck> yeah, all I do is try and invade uranus... ;}
[21:43] <raven-Ron> raven: I love the look when it isn't because I screwed up somehow...
[21:43] <raven-Ron> Ron: LOLOL AB
[21:43] <{sonja}JP> i havent screwed up that bad yet...
[21:43] <raven-Ron> raven: I have...oh well..such goes life
[21:43] <{sonja}JP> but we are new....
[21:43] <Amax> Thank you ayli, but this fits better...
[21:44] <raven-Ron> ok..so, would you say that living the lifestyle aids the growth of a dominant and a submissive? meaning, would they grow a bit quicker than those who engage in temporary play relationships
[21:44] * ayli hides under the chair again
[21:44] * ananda{R} ponders raven's comment
[21:44] <{sonja}JP> i would say that yes
[21:45] <ayli> Yes, I would think so
[21:45] <{sonja}JP> like going to spain to learn spanish (submerging oneself)
[21:45] <raven-Ron> Ron: yes they definitely grow quicker, better together..because they are together..a person learning to be dominant without a sub around, just turns into a bully because they don't have the give and take..
[21:45] <ananda{R}> I don't think so....because full time bdsm is not for all...for some, having the sexual play of it is what they need ......they aren't in the same place as us
[21:45] <raven-Ron> raven; I think they grow faster because it is easier to learn from one another if you are together more often...
[21:46] <raven-Ron> true ananda...but I was asking if as far as growth in submission/domination is concerned, would those who live the lifestyle grow faster than those who just play?
[21:46] <ananda{R}> oh ok, I miaewS
[21:46] <ananda{R}> misread too
[21:46] <raven-Ron> no problem..I'm not exactly thinking clearly...
[21:47] <raven-Ron> raven: I think growth wil occur in any relationship, but due to proximity and day to day stuff, it would occur faster with a live in 24/7 lifestyle relationship...but then, I could be wrong too :)
[21:47] <ananda{R}> this god awful heat has gotten to me, but I follow what you are saying now
[21:47] * raven-Ron dcc send ananda ice cubes
[21:47] <ananda{R}> no, I agree with you, raven
[21:48] <raven-Ron> raven: do you think in a lifestyle relationship, that as time goes on, the people could grow into an m/s relationship?
[21:48] <raven-Ron> Ron: could, but not neccessarily. not everyone wants/needs that
[21:48] <Amax> I can understand the feeling. I do not wish to play but to have a partner...
[21:48] <ananda{R}> what is m/s?
[21:48] <raven-Ron> master/slave
[21:48] <raven-Ron> TPE
[21:48] <ayli> not everyone wants m/s
[21:48] <raven-Ron> raven: true Ron and ayli
[21:48] <{sonja}JP> that is exactly what happened to us
[21:49] <ayli> some people don't KNOW they want it
[21:49] <ayli> untill later
[21:49] <raven-Ron> raven: I think it depends on the people involved...it can happen, but doesn't mean it will happen in every relationship...
[21:49] <{sonja}JP> we had no idea
[21:49] <raven-Ron> raven: there is that too ayli...
[21:49] <raven-Ron> Ron: like sonja, they had no idea but as they grew and the relationship deepened, that is where it is now...
[21:49] <{sonja}JP> 6 mos ago, you could have said slave to me and i would have vehemently denied any such thing
[21:50] <{sonja}JP> now, i am growing VERY comfy with it
[21:50] <raven-Ron> raven smiles..
[21:50] <raven-Ron> Ron: Is it satisfying to hear that now sonja?
[21:50] <{sonja}JP> big smile - yes actually - kinda proud of it - could you tell?
[21:51] <raven-Ron> raven: where does communication fit into a lifestyle BDSM relationship? is it still as neccessary as for play relationships?
[21:51] <{sonja}JP> more more more
[21:51] <ananda{R}> absotively posulutely
[21:51] <raven-Ron> Ron: more neccessary, much more..and I am happy for your sonja
[21:51] <ayli> communication will ALways be importaint
[21:51] <raven-Ron> raven: EXCELLENT sonja!! I am learning that I am slave, and still fighting it at times...
[21:51] <raven-Ron> true ayli
[21:51] <ayli> because as we've already discussed.. people change
[21:51] <raven-Ron> raven: why more important in a lifestyle relationship?
[21:51] <ayli> thier needs will change, and what they decide they Like will change
[21:51] <raven-Ron> raven smiles..you think ahead gf :))
[21:52] <ananda{R}> no relationship can survive without good communication I think
[21:52] <{sonja}JP> exactly ananda, BDSM or not....
[21:52] <raven-Ron> Ron: just like ayli said..needs will change and if you don't communicate your needs, you will be dissatisfied with your life...
[21:52] <raven-Ron> raven: yes ananda :)
[21:52] <{sonja}JP> but like someone once said,,, when you add a whip to that relationship, you best be talkin
[21:52] <ananda{R}> and espcially in BDSM, I think because if you don't express your needs/wants, you will be so unhappy and unfulfilled
[21:52] <gervaise_> wouldn't it be the same as dating v. marriage?
[21:53] <ananda{R}> how so gervaise?
[21:53] <raven-Ron> raven: hell yes sonja!
[21:53] <raven-Ron> raven: how so gervaise_?
[21:54] <raven-Ron> Ron: I don't know, beacuse in dating your communicating desire telling life stories, and in marriage it is more maintenance communiation..whereas in lifestyle bdsm it has got to be one of the cores of the relationship..needs, wants, desires, thoughts, fears..all of it..
[21:55] <raven-Ron> Ron: if you can't talk you're in trouble..whether you are holding the whip or are the one being whipped..
[21:55] <raven-Ron> raven feels guilty now..
[21:55] <{sonja}JP> an example....
[21:55] * raven-Ron listens to the example
[21:55] <{sonja}JP> when something happens btwn us that i am not happy with - i am not free to say so right away, all the time...but later, in a letter, i am free to completely express
[21:55] <{sonja}JP> i have to have that outlet
[21:56] <{sonja}JP> He needs that info
[21:56] <raven-Ron> Ron: yes he does sonja
[21:56] <raven-Ron> Ron: because if he doesn't know he can't take care of your needs
[21:56] <{sonja}JP> He gets it - in spades
[21:56] <{sonja}JP> exactly
[21:56] <{sonja}JP> i dont bitch at Him
[21:56] <raven-Ron> raven: I'm confused, I am reading that to say you can only express upset/angry emotions in writing...not verbally at all...
[21:56] <{sonja}JP> or nag
[21:57] <{sonja}JP> or constantly tell Him do this - do that
[21:57] <raven-Ron> raven listens..
[21:57] <{sonja}JP> no
[21:57] <{sonja}JP> didnt mean that
[21:57] <ayli> you can say, I'm Mad
[21:57] <ayli> without saying, you bastard you pissed me off
[21:57] <raven-Ron> ok..I'm catching on....see I'm slow tonight..
[21:57] <raven-Ron> Ron: LOLOL ayli
[21:57] <raven-Ron> raven: LOL ayli
[21:57] <{sonja}JP> back up....if he says something/to do something in front of someone - i dont contradict
[21:57] <{sonja}JP> like with the kids...
[21:57] <raven-Ron> raven: ok...got that...
[21:58] <{sonja}JP> we never express anger with each other, not really
[21:58] <ayli> but.. what if you don't agree?
[21:58] <{sonja}JP> Master said to me once....
[21:58] <{sonja}JP> there is no anger...
[21:58] <ayli> like.. what if.. you think child #1 needs a spanking
[21:58] <ananda{R}> never? that's amazing
[21:58] <{sonja}JP> you cant truly be angry if dont keep justifying it
[21:58] <ayli> and he says that he doesn't think so
[21:58] <{sonja}JP> He has never once, in 14 years gotten angry with me
[21:59] <{sonja}JP> not once
[21:59] <ananda{R}> that's amazing
[21:59] <raven-Ron> Ron: never gotten angry or never expressed it at right that moment?
[21:59] <{sonja}JP> i tried it, and it works
[21:59] <ananda{R}> define anger, sonja, please?
[21:59] <{sonja}JP> never expressed it...
[21:59] <{sonja}JP> He doesnt yell
[21:59] <raven-Ron> Ron: waited until he had control of himself before coming to you with the topic?
[21:59] <{sonja}JP> exactly
[21:59] <raven-Ron> raven is amazed because everyone feels anger...it's what they do with it that is often a problem..
[21:59] <{sonja}JP> but He doesnt often need that control either - Master is special
[22:00] <raven-Ron> Ok..so he does get mad..he just doesn't act out of that anger?
[22:00] * ayli tilts her head
[22:00] <{sonja}JP> He does sometimes get initially angry
[22:00] <ayli> I think I understand
[22:00] <{sonja}JP> yes
[22:00] <raven-Ron> rven looks at ROn...sounds familiar..
[22:00] <{sonja}JP> but He has NEVER reacted out of anger
[22:00] <ananda{R}> you mean he doesn't loose his temper sonja?
[22:00] <{sonja}JP> right
[22:00] <ananda{R}> ok, now I get it
[22:01] <{sonja}JP> He has an incredible amount of control - except when it comes to playing on His playground :-)
[22:01] <raven-Ron> Ron: I don't allow yelling either..and I try not to act out my anger when I feel it, I will get control of myself before i bring something up..
[22:01] <{sonja}JP> <----lightening the subject...
[22:01] <{sonja}JP> Control = another quality i think important in a Dom/Master
[22:01] <raven-Ron> well this brings up a question...in a lifestyle relationship, it becomes neccessary to deal with every day stuff like bills and jobs..how does this affect the relationship?
[22:02] <gervaise_> it has to do with proximity
[22:02] <{sonja}JP> another division of power
[22:02] <raven-Ron> Ron: I agree sonja, self control is perhaps the most important...
[22:03] <raven-Ron> raven: how does daily life type stuff affect the relationship?
[22:03] <{sonja}JP> it is easier now
[22:03] <raven-Ron> Ron: It places the stress of every relationship, on top of what comes wiht a BDSM relationship...
[22:03] <gervaise_> i think i'm lagging because i was talking about growth, not communication
[22:04] <raven-Ron> Ron: how is it easier sonja?
[22:04] <{sonja}JP> i think it is easier....as He has the final say - we split a lot of the daily stuff...but He makes the absolute decisions and takes the absolute responsibility
[22:05] <raven-Ron> raven: it would mean she doesn't have to worry as much since final decision and responsibility rests with him..
[22:05] <raven-Ron> raven: that must put a great deal of strain on the dominant then...
[22:05] <raven-Ron> Ron: yeah, so we need alot of backrubs and lots of kinky sex
[22:05] <{sonja}JP> it does, but He believes that one person should be in charge
[22:05] <raven-Ron> raven smacks Ron....
[22:05] <{sonja}JP> exactly ron
[22:05] <{sonja}JP> uh-oh
[22:05] <ayli> kinky sex?? PERK
[22:05] <raven-Ron> raven gigges
[22:06] <raven-Ron> Ron: laughs..she agrees with me..see raven????
[22:06] * Amax chuckles
[22:06] <raven-Ron> raven laughs..yeah yeah yeah..I see
[22:06] <raven-Ron> Ron: one person should be in charge of a household, whether it is vanilla or bdsm..there should be one person who is in charge
[22:06] <{sonja}JP> yes
[22:07] <raven-Ron> raven: I don't agree with that Ron..many vanilla relationships work just fine with a split in control...
[22:07] <Amax> But then you need the proper mix of personalities...
[22:07] <{sonja}JP> we are very -military- in that respect and have a def. chain of command
[22:07] <raven-Ron> Ron: but the split is usually on areas of influence..she gets the house, he gets the garage..that type of thing
[22:07] <raven-Ron> raven: sounds more liek areas of stereotypes..
[22:07] <{sonja}JP> hahahahahahahahahaha
[22:07] * ayli agress with raven
[22:07] <ayli> woops
[22:07] <ayli> RON
[22:07] <ayli> damnit
[22:08] <raven-Ron> Ron: or areas of strength..he might be in charge of the house..she pays all the bills cuz she's better with numbers..
[22:08] * ayli looks at her fingers
[22:08] <{sonja}JP> and who takes the responsibility?
[22:08] <raven-Ron> raven giggles and lets Ron off the hook: I understand what you are saying..
[22:08] <ayli> doesn't everyone take responsiblity a little?
[22:08] <{sonja}JP> shared responsibility doesnt really work
[22:08] <{sonja}JP> my opinion
[22:08] <raven-Ron> raven: in a vanilla relationship, the responsiblity would dpend on who was in charge of that partcular item..for example, the woman pays all the bills..the electricity gets shut off..it's her responsibility..
[22:09] <ayli> if she doesn't take care of the children properly, she answers to him, but she IS responsible for the children
[22:09] <{sonja}JP> ok - agreed
[22:09] <raven-Ron> raven: it doesn't work for me either sonja...
[22:09] <{sonja}JP> but - we are different.... alot of people think it does....until something serious comes along
[22:09] <{sonja}JP> then, they learn diff.
[22:10] <{sonja}JP> nother example....
[22:10] <raven-Ron> Ron; true there are no atheists in fox holes either..
[22:11] <{sonja}JP> i pay the bills, physically, but...Master is still responsible for telling me who gets what....
[22:11] <ayli> yes sonja, but will you not get in trouble if you don't do that task correctly?
[22:11] <{sonja}JP> therefore, if the lights get turned off cause he said to skip that and pay MasterCard - He takes responsibility
[22:11] <raven-Ron> raven: so if the dom is responsible for everything, then if the sub screws it up, how can he punish her if the responsibility to make sure something got done correctly is on his shoulder not hers?
[22:11] <ayli> you are held responsible
[22:12] <{sonja}JP> sure, if it is MY mistake
[22:12] <{sonja}JP> ie.i did something diff than what He said.
[22:12] <raven-Ron> Ron: I see
[22:12] <raven-Ron> raven: I see
[22:13] <raven-Ron> raven: I prefer to be handed the budget and told, here take care of it..make sure everything gets paid and there is money in savings..how this gets done is then up to me...
[22:13] <raven-Ron> raven: however, I usually show the checkbook and bills to the dom so he can see what got paid and how much was sent...
[22:13] <{sonja}JP> i pretty much do that....unless it is close....
[22:13] <raven-Ron> raven: but I prefer not to be told exactly how to do something that i already know how to do..to me, that's micromanaging and drives me nuts..<giggle>
[22:13] <{sonja}JP> and there are DECISIONS to be made
[22:14] <raven-Ron> raven: I see
[22:14] <Amax> In a full BDSM relationship, is it a big problem if the Dom is the type not to take proper care of his health?
[22:14] <{sonja}JP> yesyesyes
[22:14] <raven-Ron> raven; YES
[22:14] <Amax> How does the sub try to get them to the doctor for checkups and such?
[22:14] <{sonja}JP> the only time i ORDER Master to do anything...
[22:15] <{sonja}JP> blackmail (emotional)
[22:15] <{sonja}JP> check this out....
[22:15] <raven-Ron> raven: if things were real close, then yes I would go to the dom and ask what he wants done...but usually I don't, I make the decisions as to who gets waht because I was entrusted and ordered to do so...
[22:15] <ayli> set up the appointment, ans tell them when it is.
[22:15] <raven-Ron> LOLOLOL ayli..
[22:15] <raven-Ron> Ron: laughs
[22:15] <{sonja}JP> if you get sick and die.....who is going to take care of me?
[22:15] <{sonja}JP> that tooo ayli
[22:15] <raven-Ron> that works sonja!
[22:15] <{sonja}JP> taking care of Him
[22:15] <{sonja}JP> my job
[22:15] <raven-Ron> though..I've had to just make appts and tell him when they were..(no not Ron)
[22:15] <gervaise_> absolutely, sonja!!
[22:15] <gervaise_> in that case use whatever weapons you have
[22:16] * ayli laughs
[22:16] <ayli> I Love that!
[22:16] * Amax grins...
[22:16] <{sonja}JP> right - tears are a killer with Master - though i reserve them for Necessities
[22:16] <raven-Ron> LOL
[22:17] <raven-Ron> Ron: Ohhhh god nooooo ..don't give raven ideas
[22:17] <{sonja}JP> one prob i have had in this lifestyle....
[22:17] <raven-Ron> raven: yoou don't have to worry about that since I have a very hard time crying now...
[22:17] * Amax chuckles
[22:17] <gervaise_> i've been doing that for years...before a 24/7D/s relationship
[22:17] <raven-Ron> what's that sonja?
[22:17] <{sonja}JP> not a big problem.....but there is very little to bargain with....
[22:17] * Amax nods to ayli
[22:17] <{sonja}JP> you cant say.....if you dont.....i'm not gonna have sex with you
[22:17] <{sonja}JP> or whatever
[22:18] <{sonja}JP> even in play
[22:18] <{sonja}JP> very frustrating
[22:18] <raven-Ron> raven: true..you lose that sex as a weapon edge..
[22:18] <{sonja}JP> you lose EVERYTHING as a weapon
[22:18] <raven-Ron> raven: however, I'm smart ass enough to say it anyway...refuse the guy..then take the punishment AFTER he sees the doctor..<grin>
[22:18] <{sonja}JP> you cant threaten not to do ANYTHING
[22:18] <gervaise_> not necessarily... you just count the cost
[22:18] <raven-Ron> if of course, there is something seriously wrong..if he just has a cold..no I wouldn't purposely disobey that way..
[22:19] <{sonja}JP> i was just talking about trying to get them to do something everyday....{thinking of nother example}
[22:19] <raven-Ron> and if asked why, I would say something like "If you won't take care of yourself, then I can't trust that you will take care of me, so I will take care of me from now on"...it pisses them off..but they go to the doc.. :)
[22:19] <raven-Ron> Ron" Fortunately I am much better..
[22:19] <{sonja}JP> oooohhh that's good raven
[22:19] <gervaise_> oh raven i LOVE that
[22:19] <raven-Ron> I know sonja...just getting my opinion out since my mind finally tossed it up <giggle>
[22:20] <{sonja}JP> i meant like, the other day, wanted Him to turn off the TV, what do i threaten to do/not do if He doesnt?
[22:20] <Amax> But some of us can care so much more for others than ourselves...
[22:20] <raven-Ron> anyone want to add anything about lifestyle BDSM before I formally close the discussion for logging purposes?
[22:21] <Amax> Would that be a problem for a Dom?
[22:21] <gervaise_> how much did it mean to you sonja?
[22:21] <raven-Ron> you can't sonja...all you can do is ask and explain why you want it shut off, then it's up to him.. :(
[22:21] <raven-Ron> true Amax
[22:21] <{sonja}JP> actually, i showed HIm, but that's a whole nother story....
[22:21] <raven-Ron> Ron: yeah that could be a problem for a Dom, I care more for those around me than myself, but when I determine what is best for the other person, I will tell them..advise first, then flat out say no...
[22:22] <{sonja}JP> which is the way my life works :-)
[22:22] <raven-Ron> raven: like wiht Ron, I can say Ron, could you turn the speakers down, it's a bit loud and I have a headache..he will usually turn them down, since i have a good reason for asking..
[22:22] <raven-Ron> raven: but with some people..there is no "giving" from them...
[22:23] <raven-Ron> Are there times in a lifestyle relationship where the power exchange takes a back seat? (meaning, it is not as actively shown)
[22:24] <{sonja}JP> sure, not actively, but it is always there
[22:24] <raven-Ron> Ron: yes..medical emergencies would be one example...
[22:24] <raven-Ron> raven: I agree sonja
[22:24] <ayli> seriously stressful situations I'd think
[22:24] <{sonja}JP> but that is when i need it most
[22:24] <gervaise_> there are things that i'm better at... it does then
[22:24] <raven-Ron> raven: like when stress rears it's ugly head and the dom withdraws a bit because of it...that is normal, it happens in every relationship vanilla or not...
[22:24] <ayli> whoever is better able to deal with the situation should
[22:25] <raven-Ron> raven: could such things be more damaging to a bdsm relationship than they are to a vanilla one?
[22:25] <{sonja}JP> depends on how often/continuous they are
[22:25] <gervaise_> no raven, not if there is good communication
[22:25] <{sonja}JP> and how dependent the individuals are on the BDSM
[22:25] <raven-Ron> raven: I agree sonja, when I am highly stressed, that is when I need to KNOW the power exchange is still there, it is the calming force in a stressful situation...a little extra strength for me to draw on
[22:25] <gervaise_> yep
[22:26] <{sonja}JP> right
[22:26] <raven-Ron> I agree with both of you..
[22:26] <raven-Ron> Ron: depends on how total the withdrawl is..if they get silent for 2 weeks, yeah there's going to be damage..
[22:26] <raven-Ron> raven: true...
[22:26] <{sonja}JP> true
[22:27] <{sonja}JP> Master once told me that He backed off, in the beginning of our relationship, from "mastering" me
[22:27] <{sonja}JP> cause i was going thru a rough period
[22:27] <raven-Ron> raven: is it difficult to have a lifestyle bdsm household in a vanilla neighborhood?
[22:27] * ayli thinks going silent is damaging period
[22:27] <{sonja}JP> the beg. of our D/s relationship i mean
[22:28] <raven-Ron> that must have been very confusing for you sonja..
[22:28] <{sonja}JP> i begged Him not to do that
[22:28] * Amax nods a welcome back to ayli
[22:28] <raven-Ron> raven: yes ayli..but I can understand short silences while one gets control of their anger or something...but complete withdrawl, is damaging to me..
[22:28] * ayli giggles.. gonna wobble your head off one of these days Amax
[22:28] <ayli> short silence.. is different
[22:28] <ayli> but if it's days
[22:28] <raven-Ron> yes it is gf..
[22:29] <ayli> the sub soon looses confidance, no matter how much she Knows
[22:29] <raven-Ron> Ron: I would say no it wouldn't be difficult to have a bdsm household in a vanilla neighborhood..what goes on in my house is in MY house..and it's not the neighbor's business to stick their noses into it...
[22:29] <raven-Ron> raven: true..
[22:29] <{sonja}JP> it was confusing Ron, but once He knew i didnt want Him to back off, He went right back to it
[22:29] <raven-Ron> Ron: however, keeping the neighbors from knowing can be difficult..specially if you have a whipping post in the backyard..LOL
[22:30] <{sonja}JP> we were both new
[22:30] <{sonja}JP> lol
[22:30] <ayli> gosh.. if the neighbors haven't started asking questions by Now.. thy never will
[22:30] <ayli> besides.. that chick with the goat next door steals the thunder from having people that beat each other in this house
[22:30] <raven-Ron> raven: good..I'm glad he went back to it sonja..I've had a dominant drop the entire relationship, no reasons given, no commuication allowed, 4 seperate times in a year and a half...complete and total withdrawl..
[22:30] <raven-Ron> LOLOL ayli
[22:30] <raven-Ron> Ron: ROFL
[22:30] * Amax laughs
[22:31] <{sonja}JP> that is hideous raven - i am so sorry
[22:31] <raven-Ron> Ron: he was a fool..a complete and total fool raven
[22:31] * Amax agrees with Ron...
[22:31] <ayli> aaaassshole
[22:31] <raven-Ron> raven: thanks sonja, but I'm getting over it slowly...and am in a position where life could be alot nicer in the future..hell, it already is...
[22:31] <raven-Ron> raven: yeah..I guess he was Ron..
[22:32] <{sonja}JP> that is good
[22:33] <raven-Ron> Next week's will be role play in BDSM...role play scenes and such
[20:29] *** Now talking in #leather_and_roses
[21:02] * Ron-raven says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions on BDSM the following rules apply..
[21:02] <Ron-raven> you must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave. Legal age being 18 or 21 depending on your location
[21:02] <Ron-raven> no trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night
[21:02] <Ron-raven> be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[21:02] <Ron-raven> all statements are publishable on the web site, with nicks changed (at your request, email webmaster@leathernroses.com if you don't want your nick used.) If an email request is not recieved, that will be taken as consent to post the log in it's entirety using the nicknames.
[21:02] * Ron-raven blinks....I think she has popups forever in here
[21:03] <AlstrBlck> heheheheh have you tried her alt-f4 pop up yet? <EG>
[21:03] <Ron-raven> Ok....lets begin....what is a Lifestyle?
[21:05] <LAR^> Lifestyle: A way that a person chooses to live their life. And yes, regardless of what you are born it IS a choice.
[21:06] * LAR^ has kidling here so will be in and out
[21:06] * Ron-raven nods....Anything to add AB
[21:06] * ayli listens
[21:07] * AlstrBlck realizes he's not paying attention again.
[21:07] <LAR^> And by living I mean how they preceive and relate to their place in the world as well
[21:07] <ayli> how is living bdsm going to make you relate differently to the word?
[21:07] <AlstrBlck> um, what's the discussion about again?
[21:07] <Ron-raven> Yes...it is a choice....
[21:08] <Ron-raven> A BDSM Lifestyle
[21:08] <AlstrBlck> oh, ok... you perceive things differently. You don't go to bars looking for a woman who you can envision yourself marrying, having 2.4 kids, the all-american family.
[21:08] <LAR^> ayli, constantly does. A large part of a person's identity is wrapped up in the roles they live. So being in a D/s relationship, I perceive the actions of others by those standards
[21:08] <LAR^> AB, I want all that too
[21:08] * ayli smiles
[21:09] <ayli> I just put it out for discussion!
[21:09] <{sonja}JP> AB - why not?
[21:09] * LAR^ at this point will have to bow out since I have about half an hour with my kid. I will be back around 11:30 EST
[21:10] <ayli> why is 2.5 kids and an all american family OUT if your living a lifestyle that includes bdsm?
[21:10] <AlstrBlck> because it doesn't work, sonja. When you live your life in one style, you can't expect to switch to another.
[21:10] <AlstrBlck> because with the kids, you worry about them finding out, you worry about your in-laws finding out, etc.
[21:11] <{sonja}JP> i have 2 kids, Master has 1....
[21:11] <AlstrBlck> I am, of course, refering to someone who's devoted their life, more or less, to living like this.
[21:11] <ayli> that doesn't rule out children does it?
[21:11] <{sonja}JP> they see mommy being very respectful
[21:11] * ayli tilts her head
[21:11] <{sonja}JP> thats all
[21:11] <AlstrBlck> no, doesn't rule out children ayli.
[21:11] <Ron-raven> It doesnt have to be that way AB......there are 4 kids in this household.....5 if you count ayli.......6 if you count risan......7 if you cound Jeff....my little brother
[21:11] <{sonja}JP> anymore than in any other relationship, where the kids wouldnt see the sex
[21:11] <{sonja}JP> they dont see the spanking...
[21:11] <ayli> WAIT A MINUTE
[21:12] <ayli> ayli is NOT a child!!!
[21:12] <{sonja}JP> lol
[21:12] * ayli frowns.. hearing the voice behind her..
[21:12] <Ron-raven> Ok....Your not a child....
[21:12] <ayli> and I don't need spankings either.. I'm good
[21:12] * Ron-raven reserves judgemnt on that one
[21:13] *** Ron-raven is now known as raven-Ron
[21:13] <{sonja}JP> ooops
[21:13] * ayli laughs
[21:13] <ayli> i'm good.. I really am.. I just never say at what
[21:14] <{sonja}JP> so, why does devoting onesself to this lifestyle take it out of the realm of the marriage, 2.5 kids, dog, and station wagon?
[21:14] <raven-Ron> ok....having children does change the way one lives this lifestyle, however that is a whole nother topic...
[21:14] <{sonja}JP> <-----confused
[21:14] <raven-Ron> I don't think it does sonja..just have to be more creative with it...
[21:14] <{sonja}JP> true
[21:14] <raven-Ron> ok, what exactly do you think living this lifestyle entails?
[21:14] <AlstrBlck> <ROFL>
[21:15] <raven-Ron> people..please
[21:15] <AlstrBlck> sorry.
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> having some sort of power exchange...
[21:15] <ayli> sorry raven
[21:15] <raven-Ron> raven is at the keyboard..
[21:15] * ananda{R} thinks most folks define the lifestyle individually
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> we see THAT
[21:15] <{sonja}JP> but some basics....
[21:15] <raven-Ron> some sort of power exchange, so would that mean that those who exchange power every third tuesday of the month for one hour, live a BDSM lifestyle?
[21:15] <ananda{R}> for Roamer and I, it is kept private
[21:15] <raven-Ron> or do they just "dip" into one for a little while?
[21:16] <ananda{R}> hmmm, good questions r-R
[21:16] <ayli> no.. it would be constant.. I think
[21:16] <{sonja}JP> i was referring to total or "not total"
[21:16] <ananda{R}> some people keep BDSM strictly as a sexual thing
[21:16] <{sonja}JP> the varying degrees of a power exchange, but constant
[21:16] <raven-Ron> raven: I think that in order for it to be living a bdsm lifestyle, the power exchange, at whatever level, must be present on a daily basis, outside the bedroom, and be part of the basis for the relationship...
[21:16] <ananda{R}> others like Roamer and I, it is our lifestyle
[21:17] * ananda{R} agrees
[21:18] <raven-Ron> Ron: I agree that so long as there is a power exchange, it is a lifestyle...as long as it's consistent, not off again on again
[21:18] <raven-Ron> raven: ok..so would every third tuesday of the month be "consistent'?
[21:18] <{sonja}JP> me too!!!
[21:18] <{sonja}JP> no
[21:18] <raven-Ron> Ron: no becaues that would be on again off again..only every thid teusday
[21:18] <ananda{R}> it probably is to the couple who does it, they may use BDSM only in the bedroom for sexual pleasure
[21:18] <raven-Ron> ok..so we can agree that to live a BDSM lifestyle, one must have some level of power exchange present in every day life?
[21:18] <{sonja}JP> i think the PE would have to be every day
[21:19] <ayli> yes I think so
[21:19] <raven-Ron> yes
[21:19] <raven-Ron> Ron: yes
[21:19] <{sonja}JP> but the diff is, not everyone has a TOTAL PE, for some it is very slight
[21:19] <raven-Ron> true sonja
[21:19] <raven-Ron> Ron: yes
[21:20] <raven-Ron> what are some ways that lifestyle BDSM differs from off/on bdsm?
[21:20] <raven-Ron> Ron: because the power exchange is consistent, constant, not just something done for fun, like summer vacations
[21:20] <raven-Ron> raven: ok
[21:20] <ananda{R}> probably lifestyler's have more of a routine?
[21:20] <raven-Ron> probably ananda...
[21:21] <raven-Ron> Ron: yeah we're stuck in a rut LOL
[21:21] <ananda{R}> in our case, our contract has the basics laid out
[21:21] <ananda{R}> we don't waver from it
[21:21] <ayli> a rut?
[21:21] <{sonja}JP> possibly the diff between someone who is truly submissive/Dominant and someone who likes to play?
[21:21] <raven-Ron> raven: could be sonja
[21:21] <{sonja}JP> i think...if you are truly sub - you want it to be constant
[21:22] <ananda{R}> possibly, we don't "play" alot...but it is clear who is Sub and who is Dom
[21:22] <raven-Ron> Ron: contracts are good, but not neccessary for all people. though I can see where it would be a good thing when starting a relationship to have a contract..
[21:22] <{sonja}JP> could be different for the Doms (dont know - not one)
[21:22] <raven-Ron> yes soja
[21:22] <raven-Ron> raven: exactly ananda
[21:22] <ayli> you know who you are, you don't need someone else to inform you
[21:22] <raven-Ron> raven: to me, living the lifestyle does not depend on how frequently one "plays" but on the quiet knowledge of who is in charge..who holds the control..
[21:22] <ayli> err.. keep you informed
[21:23] <raven-Ron> good point ayli..
[21:23] <ananda{R}> I agree, raven
[21:23] <raven-Ron> Ron: exactly ayli
[21:23] <{sonja}JP> we went from a contract with rules and limits and safewords when we were very first learning to a TPE - no safeword
[21:23] <raven-Ron> Ron: A lifestyle is who you are, not what you do or how you do it or how often
[21:23] * ayli nods
[21:23] <{sonja}JP> well said
[21:23] <raven-Ron> raven: I thought a lifestyle was the things you did in your daily life..like a rich person's lifestyle would mean lots of expensive clothes, trips and such...
[21:23] <ananda{R}> our contract is a basic outline of the relationship we chose to have...not specific details, but a good refernce point for us
[21:23] <raven-Ron> Ron: It could be taken to mean that
[21:24] <ananda{R}> good point raven
[21:24] <raven-Ron> raven: I can see where that would be of great benefit, to me ananda, that makes it lifestyle..the power exchange as evidenced in the contract, is the basis for the relationship...
[21:24] <ananda{R}> exactly
[21:25] <raven-Ron> raven: Does living the lifestyle make us different/better than anyone else?
[21:25] <{sonja}JP> ok - so the way a person thinks?? - i live this lifestyle because i am in constant submission to my Master, whether or not there is any EVENT to be submissive in...
[21:25] <ananda{R}> I don't think so
[21:25] <raven-Ron> Ron: no it doesn't, but it does make us who we are
[21:25] <{sonja}JP> no
[21:25] <raven-Ron> raven: I don't think it makes us better..just different...
[21:25] <ananda{R}> good point sonja
[21:25] <gervaise_> raven: no it doesn't but it might make us more secure
[21:25] <ananda{R}> reminds me of a funny quote I saw once..."We are all unique, just like everyone else"
[21:26] <raven-Ron> yes sonja...because everything you do for the master can be seen as a submissive act..be it something to make him smile, or something that he orders you to do...
[21:26] <raven-Ron> Ron: gervaise_, good point
[21:26] <raven-Ron> LOL ananda
[21:26] <raven-Ron> Ron: LOL ananda
[21:26] * ayli nods nods nods.. yes
[21:27] <{sonja}JP> exactly
[21:27] <ayli> taking care of the house, the children, doing a good job at anything, to make your dominant happy would be considered a submissive act as far as I'm concered..
[21:27] * ananda{R} feels that her marriage is more secure since it was clearly defined how we wanted to live it ....of course we will change and grow, but we defined what we wanted together.....makes me feel more secure
[21:27] <raven-Ron> raven: a sub is not just submisive when he/she plays...but the mindset is submissive, specially for a service sub.that mindset is to please thier dominant..so actions dne from this mindset would be submissive...
[21:27] <raven-Ron> raven: I agree ayli, but then, I'm a service sub too...
[21:27] <raven-Ron> Ron: yes ayli
[21:27] <raven-Ron> raven: ananda, that makes sense to me...:)
[21:27] <ananda{R}> what is a service sub?
[21:28] <raven-Ron> Ron: I'm happy for you ananda
[21:28] <ananda{R}> thank you Ron
[21:28] <raven-Ron> raven: a service sub would be a submissive that focuses on serving the dominant in all ways, not just sexual..such as keeping the house, ironing his clothes, giving him a back rub..focus being to make him happy or make his/her life easier...
[21:29] <raven-Ron> Ron: but I don't want you ironing my clothes
[21:29] <raven-Ron> !
[21:29] * ananda{R} understands and determines she is one of those, less the ironing...do as little of that as possible!
[21:29] <raven-Ron> raven: fine with me..your butt wiggles very nicely when you iron..so I'll just watch you do it.. <giggle>
[21:29] <{sonja}JP> so what is the diff between a service sub and a slave? that last little bit of control?
[21:29] <gervaise_> i agree, ananda
[21:29] <raven-Ron> raven: that..and probably mindset as well sonja
[21:30] <{sonja}JP> ah
[21:30] <raven-Ron> most subs that life the BDSM lifestyle on a daily basis are service subs...the focus is not just on sexual things...but on daily plesaing of the dominant..
[21:30] <ananda{R}> interesting though, Roamer does as much as he can to make my life easier, i.e. making me a morning bath, rubbing my feet, etc etc...caring for me as well
[21:31] <raven-Ron> raven: that is a good dominant in my opinion ananda..shows he cares for you and will take care of you...with that kind of give and take, it is alot more satisfying for everyone...
[21:31] <raven-Ron> Ron: agrees with ananda and raven
[21:31] <ananda{R}> it works well for us
[21:31] <ayli> isn't caring for your submissive, taking care of who takes care of you?
[21:31] <{sonja}JP> in agreement
[21:31] * ananda{R} smiles...uh huh, ayli
[21:31] <raven-Ron> raven: it is to me ayli..but to some, doing things for the sub is "undomlike"..
[21:31] <raven-Ron> Ron: or in my case, it's taking care of those I love..
[21:31] * ananda{R} has met those types raven
[21:31] <{sonja}JP> and some subs prefer that
[21:32] <{sonja}JP> <-------not this one, mind yall
[21:32] <raven-Ron> raven: Some people think caring for the sub is to take awy the control of the dom..
[21:32] <raven-Ron> raven: you're right sonja, some subs prefer that...
[21:32] <raven-Ron> <giggle> no problem sonja...:)
[21:32] <ananda{R}> interesting thing for me....that before I "came out" in the lifestyle...I was a service oriented individual,,,,being in the "lifestyle" I have expanded the "play" areas, the service part has been natural all along
[21:32] * ayli tilts her head
[21:32] <raven-Ron> raven: yes..me too ananda..
[21:32] <{sonja}JP> if i jump up to get Master something to drink - without Him asking/ordering, who controlled that?
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> anada - same here
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> ananda even
[21:33] <ananda{R}> not sure what you mean sonja
[21:33] <ayli> He did
[21:33] <raven-Ron> raven: the master did...you did it because you knew it would make him happy at that time..the actual control of the act itself was yours..as you made the decision to get the water..but the intention behind it would be for the dominant..
[21:33] * ayli smiles.. what raven said
[21:33] <{sonja}JP> i was in a similar situation ananda
[21:34] <{sonja}JP> ah - ok
[21:34] <ananda{R}> ah, good point raven.....makes perfect sense
[21:34] <{sonja}JP> that was a dog chasing tail problem i have thought about for a while
[21:34] <ananda{R}> knowing what the Dom wants before asking,,,,sounds very lifestylish
[21:34] <raven-Ron> Ron: and on the flip side ananda, I've always been dominant, like you, coming out has just expanded my play areas
[21:34] <ananda{R}> same for Roamer, Ron
[21:35] <ayli> doesn't everyone's .. horizons expand
[21:35] <ayli> oh that came out badly.. but..
[21:35] <raven-Ron> raven: not just that Ron..it has expanded more than play areas..it has expanded your knowledge of domination so that you are more comfortable with it, to the point where you no longer "request"..you expect and demand as neccessary...
[21:35] <raven-Ron> raven: yes..horizons do expand..
[21:35] <raven-Ron> Ron: yes ayli
[21:36] * ayli tilts her head.. it seems.. that everyone.. has things.. that they grow more comortable with.. after time with a dominant or submissive
[21:36] <raven-Ron> raven: would you find life less satisfying if you did not live the lifestyle?
[21:36] <ayli> your .. willingness to try different things comes with the trust
[21:36] <raven-Ron> raven: yes ayli..
[21:36] <ananda{R}> most definitely, raven
[21:36] <{sonja}JP> YeS!!! - i did
[21:36] <ananda{R}> would not have agreed to a vanilla lifestyle
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> not just less satisfying, but stultifying
[21:37] <raven-Ron> raven: I would be a great deal less satisfied..with myself and life in general..big empty spot inside me..
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> and boring and stiffling
[21:37] * ayli nods..
[21:37] <raven-Ron> Ron: I guess you are happier now sonja?
[21:37] <raven-Ron> raven: yes ananda
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> i think that is where the "freedom of submission" comes in
[21:37] <{sonja}JP> oh LORD YES!
[21:37] * raven-Ron listens to sonja...
[21:37] <raven-Ron> freedom of submission?
[21:37] <raven-Ron> Oh!!
[21:38] <raven-Ron> ok..I get it
[21:38] <{sonja}JP> i was crazy trying to "submit" to a man who was not at all a Dom
[21:38] <raven-Ron> the a perosn is freed inside themselves, through submission..
[21:38] <raven-Ron> sorry..my mind is slow tongiht.. :(
[21:38] <ananda{R}> when you have the ability to be yourself, it is incredibly freeing, a spiritual experience in my case
[21:38] <{sonja}JP> freed to be what they are
[21:38] <raven-Ron> raven; I agree sonja..freedom through submission comes into play here...
[21:38] <raven-Ron> yes :))
[21:38] <raven-Ron> raven: if you try to hide it however, well..lets just say life sucks ...
[21:39] <{sonja}JP> either way, it sux
[21:39] * ayli laughs
[21:39] <{sonja}JP> i gots ta be free ta be me :-)
[21:39] <raven-Ron> Ron: there is freedom through dominance as well..not having to obey the strictures of "societies" expected lifestyle, and realizing that there are thse who will accept what you say and submit to yur demands...
[21:39] <ananda{R}> truly, life is a journey...nice to know when you are headed in the right direction.....for me being in teh lifestyle really helped me find my self emotionally and intellectually and spiritually
[21:39] <{sonja}JP> right - but more people understand that train of thought
[21:40] <raven-Ron> Ron: I am a gentleman, no doubt about it, I think ladies are wonderfulb eautiful intelligent caring blah blah blah, but there comes a time when I want what I want ..and I will have it..one way or another...
[21:40] <raven-Ron> raven: I agree ananda...
[21:40] <{sonja}JP> so confused....did this man claim to be NOT Dominant earlier or was i mis reading something?
[21:40] * ayli laughs
[21:40] <raven-Ron> raven: he has claimed that for years sonja!!
[21:40] <ayli> once apon a time I blive he did!
[21:40] <{sonja}JP> bad bad boy
[21:40] <ayli> but you should SEEE the klingon boy look
[21:41] * ayli shudders and climbs under a chair
[21:41] <{sonja}JP> lol
[21:41] <raven-Ron> raven remembers the first time she met Ron..he insisted (very dominant like) "I *AM* NOT DOM!!!!!!!" (klingon boy look)
[21:41] <{sonja}JP> esplain klingon boy look pls...
[21:41] <raven-Ron> Ron: I had it in my head, leather chaps, whips chains, bleeding and all that..typical stereotype...
[21:41] <AlstrBlck> hell, sonja, ask ayli about me. I'll sit there and play a fool to make you laugh.
[21:41] <raven-Ron> raven: his forhead gets all wrinkled..eyebrows coming together in the middle..and his eyes get DARK..very serious...
[21:42] <ayli> AB can be very silly.. but he's.. capable of.. uhmmm.. semi klingon boy look
[21:42] <ayli> of his own version of course
[21:42] <{sonja}JP> ahhhh...the LOOK - i love that look - gives me the tremors when Master does it
[21:42] <AlstrBlck> yeah, all I do is try and invade uranus... ;}
[21:43] <raven-Ron> raven: I love the look when it isn't because I screwed up somehow...
[21:43] <raven-Ron> Ron: LOLOL AB
[21:43] <{sonja}JP> i havent screwed up that bad yet...
[21:43] <raven-Ron> raven: I have...oh well..such goes life
[21:43] <{sonja}JP> but we are new....
[21:43] <Amax> Thank you ayli, but this fits better...
[21:44] <raven-Ron> ok..so, would you say that living the lifestyle aids the growth of a dominant and a submissive? meaning, would they grow a bit quicker than those who engage in temporary play relationships
[21:44] * ayli hides under the chair again
[21:44] * ananda{R} ponders raven's comment
[21:44] <{sonja}JP> i would say that yes
[21:45] <ayli> Yes, I would think so
[21:45] <{sonja}JP> like going to spain to learn spanish (submerging oneself)
[21:45] <raven-Ron> Ron: yes they definitely grow quicker, better together..because they are together..a person learning to be dominant without a sub around, just turns into a bully because they don't have the give and take..
[21:45] <ananda{R}> I don't think so....because full time bdsm is not for all...for some, having the sexual play of it is what they need ......they aren't in the same place as us
[21:45] <raven-Ron> raven; I think they grow faster because it is easier to learn from one another if you are together more often...
[21:46] <raven-Ron> true ananda...but I was asking if as far as growth in submission/domination is concerned, would those who live the lifestyle grow faster than those who just play?
[21:46] <ananda{R}> oh ok, I miaewS
[21:46] <ananda{R}> misread too
[21:46] <raven-Ron> no problem..I'm not exactly thinking clearly...
[21:47] <raven-Ron> raven: I think growth wil occur in any relationship, but due to proximity and day to day stuff, it would occur faster with a live in 24/7 lifestyle relationship...but then, I could be wrong too :)
[21:47] <ananda{R}> this god awful heat has gotten to me, but I follow what you are saying now
[21:47] * raven-Ron dcc send ananda ice cubes
[21:47] <ananda{R}> no, I agree with you, raven
[21:48] <raven-Ron> raven: do you think in a lifestyle relationship, that as time goes on, the people could grow into an m/s relationship?
[21:48] <raven-Ron> Ron: could, but not neccessarily. not everyone wants/needs that
[21:48] <Amax> I can understand the feeling. I do not wish to play but to have a partner...
[21:48] <ananda{R}> what is m/s?
[21:48] <raven-Ron> master/slave
[21:48] <raven-Ron> TPE
[21:48] <ayli> not everyone wants m/s
[21:48] <raven-Ron> raven: true Ron and ayli
[21:48] <{sonja}JP> that is exactly what happened to us
[21:49] <ayli> some people don't KNOW they want it
[21:49] <ayli> untill later
[21:49] <raven-Ron> raven: I think it depends on the people involved...it can happen, but doesn't mean it will happen in every relationship...
[21:49] <{sonja}JP> we had no idea
[21:49] <raven-Ron> raven: there is that too ayli...
[21:49] <raven-Ron> Ron: like sonja, they had no idea but as they grew and the relationship deepened, that is where it is now...
[21:49] <{sonja}JP> 6 mos ago, you could have said slave to me and i would have vehemently denied any such thing
[21:50] <{sonja}JP> now, i am growing VERY comfy with it
[21:50] <raven-Ron> raven smiles..
[21:50] <raven-Ron> Ron: Is it satisfying to hear that now sonja?
[21:50] <{sonja}JP> big smile - yes actually - kinda proud of it - could you tell?
[21:51] <raven-Ron> raven: where does communication fit into a lifestyle BDSM relationship? is it still as neccessary as for play relationships?
[21:51] <{sonja}JP> more more more
[21:51] <ananda{R}> absotively posulutely
[21:51] <raven-Ron> Ron: more neccessary, much more..and I am happy for your sonja
[21:51] <ayli> communication will ALways be importaint
[21:51] <raven-Ron> raven: EXCELLENT sonja!! I am learning that I am slave, and still fighting it at times...
[21:51] <raven-Ron> true ayli
[21:51] <ayli> because as we've already discussed.. people change
[21:51] <raven-Ron> raven: why more important in a lifestyle relationship?
[21:51] <ayli> thier needs will change, and what they decide they Like will change
[21:51] <raven-Ron> raven smiles..you think ahead gf :))
[21:52] <ananda{R}> no relationship can survive without good communication I think
[21:52] <{sonja}JP> exactly ananda, BDSM or not....
[21:52] <raven-Ron> Ron: just like ayli said..needs will change and if you don't communicate your needs, you will be dissatisfied with your life...
[21:52] <raven-Ron> raven: yes ananda :)
[21:52] <{sonja}JP> but like someone once said,,, when you add a whip to that relationship, you best be talkin
[21:52] <ananda{R}> and espcially in BDSM, I think because if you don't express your needs/wants, you will be so unhappy and unfulfilled
[21:52] <gervaise_> wouldn't it be the same as dating v. marriage?
[21:53] <ananda{R}> how so gervaise?
[21:53] <raven-Ron> raven: hell yes sonja!
[21:53] <raven-Ron> raven: how so gervaise_?
[21:54] <raven-Ron> Ron: I don't know, beacuse in dating your communicating desire telling life stories, and in marriage it is more maintenance communiation..whereas in lifestyle bdsm it has got to be one of the cores of the relationship..needs, wants, desires, thoughts, fears..all of it..
[21:55] <raven-Ron> Ron: if you can't talk you're in trouble..whether you are holding the whip or are the one being whipped..
[21:55] <raven-Ron> raven feels guilty now..
[21:55] <{sonja}JP> an example....
[21:55] * raven-Ron listens to the example
[21:55] <{sonja}JP> when something happens btwn us that i am not happy with - i am not free to say so right away, all the time...but later, in a letter, i am free to completely express
[21:55] <{sonja}JP> i have to have that outlet
[21:56] <{sonja}JP> He needs that info
[21:56] <raven-Ron> Ron: yes he does sonja
[21:56] <raven-Ron> Ron: because if he doesn't know he can't take care of your needs
[21:56] <{sonja}JP> He gets it - in spades
[21:56] <{sonja}JP> exactly
[21:56] <{sonja}JP> i dont bitch at Him
[21:56] <raven-Ron> raven: I'm confused, I am reading that to say you can only express upset/angry emotions in writing...not verbally at all...
[21:56] <{sonja}JP> or nag
[21:57] <{sonja}JP> or constantly tell Him do this - do that
[21:57] <raven-Ron> raven listens..
[21:57] <{sonja}JP> no
[21:57] <{sonja}JP> didnt mean that
[21:57] <ayli> you can say, I'm Mad
[21:57] <ayli> without saying, you bastard you pissed me off
[21:57] <raven-Ron> ok..I'm catching on....see I'm slow tonight..
[21:57] <raven-Ron> Ron: LOLOL ayli
[21:57] <raven-Ron> raven: LOL ayli
[21:57] <{sonja}JP> back up....if he says something/to do something in front of someone - i dont contradict
[21:57] <{sonja}JP> like with the kids...
[21:57] <raven-Ron> raven: ok...got that...
[21:58] <{sonja}JP> we never express anger with each other, not really
[21:58] <ayli> but.. what if you don't agree?
[21:58] <{sonja}JP> Master said to me once....
[21:58] <{sonja}JP> there is no anger...
[21:58] <ayli> like.. what if.. you think child #1 needs a spanking
[21:58] <ananda{R}> never? that's amazing
[21:58] <{sonja}JP> you cant truly be angry if dont keep justifying it
[21:58] <ayli> and he says that he doesn't think so
[21:58] <{sonja}JP> He has never once, in 14 years gotten angry with me
[21:59] <{sonja}JP> not once
[21:59] <ananda{R}> that's amazing
[21:59] <raven-Ron> Ron: never gotten angry or never expressed it at right that moment?
[21:59] <{sonja}JP> i tried it, and it works
[21:59] <ananda{R}> define anger, sonja, please?
[21:59] <{sonja}JP> never expressed it...
[21:59] <{sonja}JP> He doesnt yell
[21:59] <raven-Ron> Ron: waited until he had control of himself before coming to you with the topic?
[21:59] <{sonja}JP> exactly
[21:59] <raven-Ron> raven is amazed because everyone feels anger...it's what they do with it that is often a problem..
[21:59] <{sonja}JP> but He doesnt often need that control either - Master is special
[22:00] <raven-Ron> Ok..so he does get mad..he just doesn't act out of that anger?
[22:00] * ayli tilts her head
[22:00] <{sonja}JP> He does sometimes get initially angry
[22:00] <ayli> I think I understand
[22:00] <{sonja}JP> yes
[22:00] <raven-Ron> rven looks at ROn...sounds familiar..
[22:00] <{sonja}JP> but He has NEVER reacted out of anger
[22:00] <ananda{R}> you mean he doesn't loose his temper sonja?
[22:00] <{sonja}JP> right
[22:00] <ananda{R}> ok, now I get it
[22:01] <{sonja}JP> He has an incredible amount of control - except when it comes to playing on His playground :-)
[22:01] <raven-Ron> Ron: I don't allow yelling either..and I try not to act out my anger when I feel it, I will get control of myself before i bring something up..
[22:01] <{sonja}JP> <----lightening the subject...
[22:01] <{sonja}JP> Control = another quality i think important in a Dom/Master
[22:01] <raven-Ron> well this brings up a question...in a lifestyle relationship, it becomes neccessary to deal with every day stuff like bills and jobs..how does this affect the relationship?
[22:02] <gervaise_> it has to do with proximity
[22:02] <{sonja}JP> another division of power
[22:02] <raven-Ron> Ron: I agree sonja, self control is perhaps the most important...
[22:03] <raven-Ron> raven: how does daily life type stuff affect the relationship?
[22:03] <{sonja}JP> it is easier now
[22:03] <raven-Ron> Ron: It places the stress of every relationship, on top of what comes wiht a BDSM relationship...
[22:03] <gervaise_> i think i'm lagging because i was talking about growth, not communication
[22:04] <raven-Ron> Ron: how is it easier sonja?
[22:04] <{sonja}JP> i think it is easier....as He has the final say - we split a lot of the daily stuff...but He makes the absolute decisions and takes the absolute responsibility
[22:05] <raven-Ron> raven: it would mean she doesn't have to worry as much since final decision and responsibility rests with him..
[22:05] <raven-Ron> raven: that must put a great deal of strain on the dominant then...
[22:05] <raven-Ron> Ron: yeah, so we need alot of backrubs and lots of kinky sex
[22:05] <{sonja}JP> it does, but He believes that one person should be in charge
[22:05] <raven-Ron> raven smacks Ron....
[22:05] <{sonja}JP> exactly ron
[22:05] <{sonja}JP> uh-oh
[22:05] <ayli> kinky sex?? PERK
[22:05] <raven-Ron> raven gigges
[22:06] <raven-Ron> Ron: laughs..she agrees with me..see raven????
[22:06] * Amax chuckles
[22:06] <raven-Ron> raven laughs..yeah yeah yeah..I see
[22:06] <raven-Ron> Ron: one person should be in charge of a household, whether it is vanilla or bdsm..there should be one person who is in charge
[22:06] <{sonja}JP> yes
[22:07] <raven-Ron> raven: I don't agree with that Ron..many vanilla relationships work just fine with a split in control...
[22:07] <Amax> But then you need the proper mix of personalities...
[22:07] <{sonja}JP> we are very -military- in that respect and have a def. chain of command
[22:07] <raven-Ron> Ron: but the split is usually on areas of influence..she gets the house, he gets the garage..that type of thing
[22:07] <raven-Ron> raven: sounds more liek areas of stereotypes..
[22:07] <{sonja}JP> hahahahahahahahahaha
[22:07] * ayli agress with raven
[22:07] <ayli> woops
[22:07] <ayli> RON
[22:07] <ayli> damnit
[22:08] <raven-Ron> Ron: or areas of strength..he might be in charge of the house..she pays all the bills cuz she's better with numbers..
[22:08] * ayli looks at her fingers
[22:08] <{sonja}JP> and who takes the responsibility?
[22:08] <raven-Ron> raven giggles and lets Ron off the hook: I understand what you are saying..
[22:08] <ayli> doesn't everyone take responsiblity a little?
[22:08] <{sonja}JP> shared responsibility doesnt really work
[22:08] <{sonja}JP> my opinion
[22:08] <raven-Ron> raven: in a vanilla relationship, the responsiblity would dpend on who was in charge of that partcular item..for example, the woman pays all the bills..the electricity gets shut off..it's her responsibility..
[22:09] <ayli> if she doesn't take care of the children properly, she answers to him, but she IS responsible for the children
[22:09] <{sonja}JP> ok - agreed
[22:09] <raven-Ron> raven: it doesn't work for me either sonja...
[22:09] <{sonja}JP> but - we are different.... alot of people think it does....until something serious comes along
[22:09] <{sonja}JP> then, they learn diff.
[22:10] <{sonja}JP> nother example....
[22:10] <raven-Ron> Ron; true there are no atheists in fox holes either..
[22:11] <{sonja}JP> i pay the bills, physically, but...Master is still responsible for telling me who gets what....
[22:11] <ayli> yes sonja, but will you not get in trouble if you don't do that task correctly?
[22:11] <{sonja}JP> therefore, if the lights get turned off cause he said to skip that and pay MasterCard - He takes responsibility
[22:11] <raven-Ron> raven: so if the dom is responsible for everything, then if the sub screws it up, how can he punish her if the responsibility to make sure something got done correctly is on his shoulder not hers?
[22:11] <ayli> you are held responsible
[22:12] <{sonja}JP> sure, if it is MY mistake
[22:12] <{sonja}JP> ie.i did something diff than what He said.
[22:12] <raven-Ron> Ron: I see
[22:12] <raven-Ron> raven: I see
[22:13] <raven-Ron> raven: I prefer to be handed the budget and told, here take care of it..make sure everything gets paid and there is money in savings..how this gets done is then up to me...
[22:13] <raven-Ron> raven: however, I usually show the checkbook and bills to the dom so he can see what got paid and how much was sent...
[22:13] <{sonja}JP> i pretty much do that....unless it is close....
[22:13] <raven-Ron> raven: but I prefer not to be told exactly how to do something that i already know how to do..to me, that's micromanaging and drives me nuts..<giggle>
[22:13] <{sonja}JP> and there are DECISIONS to be made
[22:14] <raven-Ron> raven: I see
[22:14] <Amax> In a full BDSM relationship, is it a big problem if the Dom is the type not to take proper care of his health?
[22:14] <{sonja}JP> yesyesyes
[22:14] <raven-Ron> raven; YES
[22:14] <Amax> How does the sub try to get them to the doctor for checkups and such?
[22:14] <{sonja}JP> the only time i ORDER Master to do anything...
[22:15] <{sonja}JP> blackmail (emotional)
[22:15] <{sonja}JP> check this out....
[22:15] <raven-Ron> raven: if things were real close, then yes I would go to the dom and ask what he wants done...but usually I don't, I make the decisions as to who gets waht because I was entrusted and ordered to do so...
[22:15] <ayli> set up the appointment, ans tell them when it is.
[22:15] <raven-Ron> LOLOLOL ayli..
[22:15] <raven-Ron> Ron: laughs
[22:15] <{sonja}JP> if you get sick and die.....who is going to take care of me?
[22:15] <{sonja}JP> that tooo ayli
[22:15] <raven-Ron> that works sonja!
[22:15] <{sonja}JP> taking care of Him
[22:15] <{sonja}JP> my job
[22:15] <raven-Ron> though..I've had to just make appts and tell him when they were..(no not Ron)
[22:15] <gervaise_> absolutely, sonja!!
[22:15] <gervaise_> in that case use whatever weapons you have
[22:16] * ayli laughs
[22:16] <ayli> I Love that!
[22:16] * Amax grins...
[22:16] <{sonja}JP> right - tears are a killer with Master - though i reserve them for Necessities
[22:16] <raven-Ron> LOL
[22:17] <raven-Ron> Ron: Ohhhh god nooooo ..don't give raven ideas
[22:17] <{sonja}JP> one prob i have had in this lifestyle....
[22:17] <raven-Ron> raven: yoou don't have to worry about that since I have a very hard time crying now...
[22:17] * Amax chuckles
[22:17] <gervaise_> i've been doing that for years...before a 24/7D/s relationship
[22:17] <raven-Ron> what's that sonja?
[22:17] <{sonja}JP> not a big problem.....but there is very little to bargain with....
[22:17] * Amax nods to ayli
[22:17] <{sonja}JP> you cant say.....if you dont.....i'm not gonna have sex with you
[22:17] <{sonja}JP> or whatever
[22:18] <{sonja}JP> even in play
[22:18] <{sonja}JP> very frustrating
[22:18] <raven-Ron> raven: true..you lose that sex as a weapon edge..
[22:18] <{sonja}JP> you lose EVERYTHING as a weapon
[22:18] <raven-Ron> raven: however, I'm smart ass enough to say it anyway...refuse the guy..then take the punishment AFTER he sees the doctor..<grin>
[22:18] <{sonja}JP> you cant threaten not to do ANYTHING
[22:18] <gervaise_> not necessarily... you just count the cost
[22:18] <raven-Ron> if of course, there is something seriously wrong..if he just has a cold..no I wouldn't purposely disobey that way..
[22:19] <{sonja}JP> i was just talking about trying to get them to do something everyday....{thinking of nother example}
[22:19] <raven-Ron> and if asked why, I would say something like "If you won't take care of yourself, then I can't trust that you will take care of me, so I will take care of me from now on"...it pisses them off..but they go to the doc.. :)
[22:19] <raven-Ron> Ron" Fortunately I am much better..
[22:19] <{sonja}JP> oooohhh that's good raven
[22:19] <gervaise_> oh raven i LOVE that
[22:19] <raven-Ron> I know sonja...just getting my opinion out since my mind finally tossed it up <giggle>
[22:20] <{sonja}JP> i meant like, the other day, wanted Him to turn off the TV, what do i threaten to do/not do if He doesnt?
[22:20] <Amax> But some of us can care so much more for others than ourselves...
[22:20] <raven-Ron> anyone want to add anything about lifestyle BDSM before I formally close the discussion for logging purposes?
[22:21] <Amax> Would that be a problem for a Dom?
[22:21] <gervaise_> how much did it mean to you sonja?
[22:21] <raven-Ron> you can't sonja...all you can do is ask and explain why you want it shut off, then it's up to him.. :(
[22:21] <raven-Ron> true Amax
[22:21] <{sonja}JP> actually, i showed HIm, but that's a whole nother story....
[22:21] <raven-Ron> Ron: yeah that could be a problem for a Dom, I care more for those around me than myself, but when I determine what is best for the other person, I will tell them..advise first, then flat out say no...
[22:22] <{sonja}JP> which is the way my life works :-)
[22:22] <raven-Ron> raven: like wiht Ron, I can say Ron, could you turn the speakers down, it's a bit loud and I have a headache..he will usually turn them down, since i have a good reason for asking..
[22:22] <raven-Ron> raven: but with some people..there is no "giving" from them...
[22:23] <raven-Ron> Are there times in a lifestyle relationship where the power exchange takes a back seat? (meaning, it is not as actively shown)
[22:24] <{sonja}JP> sure, not actively, but it is always there
[22:24] <raven-Ron> Ron: yes..medical emergencies would be one example...
[22:24] <raven-Ron> raven: I agree sonja
[22:24] <ayli> seriously stressful situations I'd think
[22:24] <{sonja}JP> but that is when i need it most
[22:24] <gervaise_> there are things that i'm better at... it does then
[22:24] <raven-Ron> raven: like when stress rears it's ugly head and the dom withdraws a bit because of it...that is normal, it happens in every relationship vanilla or not...
[22:24] <ayli> whoever is better able to deal with the situation should
[22:25] <raven-Ron> raven: could such things be more damaging to a bdsm relationship than they are to a vanilla one?
[22:25] <{sonja}JP> depends on how often/continuous they are
[22:25] <gervaise_> no raven, not if there is good communication
[22:25] <{sonja}JP> and how dependent the individuals are on the BDSM
[22:25] <raven-Ron> raven: I agree sonja, when I am highly stressed, that is when I need to KNOW the power exchange is still there, it is the calming force in a stressful situation...a little extra strength for me to draw on
[22:25] <gervaise_> yep
[22:26] <{sonja}JP> right
[22:26] <raven-Ron> I agree with both of you..
[22:26] <raven-Ron> Ron: depends on how total the withdrawl is..if they get silent for 2 weeks, yeah there's going to be damage..
[22:26] <raven-Ron> raven: true...
[22:26] <{sonja}JP> true
[22:27] <{sonja}JP> Master once told me that He backed off, in the beginning of our relationship, from "mastering" me
[22:27] <{sonja}JP> cause i was going thru a rough period
[22:27] <raven-Ron> raven: is it difficult to have a lifestyle bdsm household in a vanilla neighborhood?
[22:27] * ayli thinks going silent is damaging period
[22:27] <{sonja}JP> the beg. of our D/s relationship i mean
[22:28] <raven-Ron> that must have been very confusing for you sonja..
[22:28] <{sonja}JP> i begged Him not to do that
[22:28] * Amax nods a welcome back to ayli
[22:28] <raven-Ron> raven: yes ayli..but I can understand short silences while one gets control of their anger or something...but complete withdrawl, is damaging to me..
[22:28] * ayli giggles.. gonna wobble your head off one of these days Amax
[22:28] <ayli> short silence.. is different
[22:28] <ayli> but if it's days
[22:28] <raven-Ron> yes it is gf..
[22:29] <ayli> the sub soon looses confidance, no matter how much she Knows
[22:29] <raven-Ron> Ron: I would say no it wouldn't be difficult to have a bdsm household in a vanilla neighborhood..what goes on in my house is in MY house..and it's not the neighbor's business to stick their noses into it...
[22:29] <raven-Ron> raven: true..
[22:29] <{sonja}JP> it was confusing Ron, but once He knew i didnt want Him to back off, He went right back to it
[22:29] <raven-Ron> Ron: however, keeping the neighbors from knowing can be difficult..specially if you have a whipping post in the backyard..LOL
[22:30] <{sonja}JP> we were both new
[22:30] <{sonja}JP> lol
[22:30] <ayli> gosh.. if the neighbors haven't started asking questions by Now.. thy never will
[22:30] <ayli> besides.. that chick with the goat next door steals the thunder from having people that beat each other in this house
[22:30] <raven-Ron> raven: good..I'm glad he went back to it sonja..I've had a dominant drop the entire relationship, no reasons given, no commuication allowed, 4 seperate times in a year and a half...complete and total withdrawl..
[22:30] <raven-Ron> LOLOL ayli
[22:30] <raven-Ron> Ron: ROFL
[22:30] * Amax laughs
[22:31] <{sonja}JP> that is hideous raven - i am so sorry
[22:31] <raven-Ron> Ron: he was a fool..a complete and total fool raven
[22:31] * Amax agrees with Ron...
[22:31] <ayli> aaaassshole
[22:31] <raven-Ron> raven: thanks sonja, but I'm getting over it slowly...and am in a position where life could be alot nicer in the future..hell, it already is...
[22:31] <raven-Ron> raven: yeah..I guess he was Ron..
[22:32] <{sonja}JP> that is good
[22:33] <raven-Ron> Next week's will be role play in BDSM...role play scenes and such
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