Presents:
BDSM Discussion 24
Honeymoon
Periods In BDSM Relationships
All Comments Posted Here With Permission Of The Participants
July 16, 2000
[21:01] * ravenshad says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions on BDSM the following rules apply..
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[21:02] <ravenshad> webmaster@leathernroses.com (need to change that popup.)
[21:02] <Roamer``> LOL
[21:02] * LadyMist grins
[21:02] * mizu giggles
[21:02] <ravenshad> tonight's topic is "Honeymoon periods in BDSM relationships"
[21:03] <ravenshad> lets start with...what is a honeymoon period?
[21:03] <LadyMist> the spansion of time when the "romantic" love endures in couple based BDSM
[21:03] <LadyMist> in service based I am not so sure?
[21:03] <LadyMist> The "getting to know you period" maybe?
[21:04] <aleaya`> a time of not seeing the real underlying faults of each other....just love
[21:04] <ravenshad> Would it be the period of time wehre everything is seen as "great" and "wonderful" and most problems are "ignored" because everythign is new??
[21:04] <aleaya`> almost what i said ravenshad
[21:04] * LadyMist trys to not ignore that which will cause problems later...
[21:04] <ravenshad> yes aleya
[21:04] <AAhhzz> The time during which nothing can be annoying.......His/Her little quicks are "charming"......
[21:04] * LadyMist agrees
[21:04] * Daughain listens..
[21:04] <Master692> AH HA
[21:04] <ravenshad> Does such a time period exist in d/s relationships?
[21:04] <Roamer``> seems ot be a good enough definition to me
[21:05] <LadyMist> LOL... not in mine....\
[21:05] <aleaya`> YES
[21:05] <Master692> depends on the "rules' one has
[21:05] <AAhhzz> I think they exist in all types of relationships.....
[21:05] <Daughain> They do tend to..
[21:05] <Roamer``> ravenshad: i would say in all relationshipsd
[21:05] <ravenshad> I think they exist in all relationships.even bdsm ones..
[21:05] <aleaya`> i agree AAhhzz Sir
[21:05] <ravenshad> how could the honeymoon period affect a bdsm relationship?
[21:05] <LadyMist> doesn't the dominant seem less in control if quirks that will be annoying are charming today?
[21:05] <Master692> i feel it like a feeling out process,
[21:06] * AAhhzz looks at LadyMist....Well........There is not time when the passions and love and the desire makes you gloss over little things?
[21:06] <Roamer``> ravenshad: it could affect expectations
[21:06] <LadyMist> but that is assuming there is passion and love...
[21:06] <ravenshad> could be from that point of view..but I don't tihnk its something that people do on purpose..I think it's human nature and part of the whole "ohhhh wow..she/he is living with me now!! this is great!!' stage..
[21:06] <ravenshad> it could be a feeling out process Master69
[21:06] <LadyMist> there are BDSM relationships where love is seen as a hinderance rather than an asset
[21:06] <ravenshad> true...that is assuming there is love in the relationship..
[21:07] <ravenshad> and yes, that is true as well LM..
[21:07] <aleaya`> true LadyMist
[21:07] * Daughain chuckles softly..
[21:07] <ravenshad> for the sake of discussion..lets stay with love based d/s relationships for now..
[21:07] <ravenshad> then complicate it.. :)
[21:07] <LadyMist> ok...'S'
[21:07] * Daughain snickers..
[21:07] <Roamer``> hehehe
[21:07] * ravenshad grins..
[21:07] <aleaya`> okies
[21:07] * LadyMist loves being complicated...
[21:07] <Master692> check check
[21:07] * LadyMist thinks it is part of her charm..
[21:07] <ravenshad> so do I LM..but discussions work best when we start easy then get more difficult.. )
[21:08] <Roamer``> LadyMist: beats being implicated huh ?
[21:08] <ravenshad> ok..so..for a love based d/s relationship..can the honeymoon period casue problems?
[21:08] <LadyMist> anytime....!! 'thinks there is that beat word again...'
[21:08] <Daughain> Sometimes being implicated can be interesting, Roamer.
[21:09] <Roamer``> ravenshad: i would think so yes ....
[21:09] <ravenshad> how so Roamer?
[21:09] * AAhhzz thinks.......Not so much the "honeymoon" period....but the transistion to the long term life can be...difficult.....
[21:09] <Master692> I belive that the honeymoon phaze can be a very trying time for both Master and sub,
[21:09] <Roamer``> ravenshad: well, as i said earlier .......the honeymoon period could affect the long term expectations ........
[21:09] <aleaya`> a honeymoon is a d/s relationship to me.....should be a time where one gets to know the other one without punishments and other irritating things going on
[21:10] <ravenshad> the question on the table EZ is can the honeymoon period cause problems in a love based relationship> honeymoon period period being when people ignore some things because they are caught up int he "love" aspect..
[21:10] <ravenshad> I can't agree with that aleaya...
[21:10] <ravenshad> how can it affect long term expectations Roamer?
[21:10] <ravenshad> how could it be trying Master69?
[21:10] <Daughain> HOwever, she may have a point, raven...
[21:11] * AAhhzz thinks....No.......I dont think that would be wise....but perhaps a grace period in which the submissive is reminded gently of the rules......
[21:11] <ravenshad> ok..explain please Duaghain
[21:11] <Roamer``> ravenshad: well. for example ......
[21:11] <Daughain> aleaya, would ye expand on that, please?
[21:11] * ravenshad thinks of what AAhhzz just said for a moment..ok..I can see that..yes..that makes sense..
[21:11] * Roamer`` waits
[21:12] <aleaya`> the honeymoon starts the moment a definite relationship is decided upon
[21:12] <ravenshad> sorry all..am a bit rusty..forgot the one thing at a time rule..forgive me..
[21:12] * Daughain chuckles softly..
[21:12] <Master692> well, a sub will try to do her best every time, and as the honeymoon phaze andexpectations are met, one would have to keep up the expectations and thats when things can get sticky, mistakes can be made, and that can jag some nerveas
[21:12] * LadyMist makes note of the one at a time rule...
[21:13] * AAhhzz writes "raven forgot the rules" on the list
[21:13] <ravenshad> makes sense Master69 and I can see how that goes..
[21:13] <ravenshad> so spank me AAhhzz.. :)
[21:13] * mizu giggles
[21:13] <Daughain> She's back on the spankings..
[21:13] * ravenshad LIKES spankings..
[21:13] <ravenshad> ok ok..back to topic at hand..
[21:13] <aleaya`> the couple should talk about all the things expected in that relationship at the very beginning
[21:13] <ravenshad> ok aleaya..
[21:14] <ravenshad> ok..so the honeymoon period can be used as a time period for the people involved to get to know each other better?
[21:14] <aleaya`> then work on each things slowly......but until they get to know each others limits and likes and dislikes.....the honeymoon is still on
[21:14] * AAhhzz nods....That makes sense....but sometimes aleaya` there isnt a "relationship" untill the two ( or 3 or 17 ) involved find themselves in love......
[21:14] <gervaise_> aleaya` how can a couple talk about everything in the beginning?
[21:15] <Master692> me being from the Old school, I see the honeymoon as a never ending process, and the rules of the relationship are tryed and tested,
[21:15] <aleaya`> gervaise_ t hey can if they are not new to d/s
[21:15] <ravenshad> ummm..aleaya..shouldn't those things be discussed before a formal relationship is entered in to? and specially before a live in one comes around?
[21:15] * LadyMist thinks so...
[21:15] <aleaya`> probably raven
[21:15] * Roamer`` thinks they should
[21:15] <gervaise_> ok, so you know where i'm at
[21:15] <ravenshad> then the honeymoon period isn't a time to find out your partner loves bestiality and you don't..
[21:15] <aleaya`> but also go on in discussion thru the honeymoon
[21:15] <AAhhzz> That would be best raven....but in some cases it just doesnt happen.......
[21:16] <ravenshad> I can't agree with everything you said aleaya..
[21:16] <LadyMist> definitely beofre the collar... whenever that happens...
[21:16] <ravenshad> much of those discussions should happen before a formal relationship takes place..
[21:16] <ravenshad> or like LM just said..before the collar..
[21:16] <ravenshad> true AAhhzz..it doesn't..
[21:17] <ravenshad> go ahead Roamer..your turn..
[21:17] <aleaya`> ok i have a question then
[21:17] * aleaya` waits for Roamer``
[21:17] <Roamer``> actually Master692 made much the same point i was about to
[21:17] <ravenshad> ahhh..ok..did you wish to add anything Roamer?
[21:18] * AAhhzz thinks......Well.....even the best discussion before a relationship starts will not prevent finding out new things after it has begun...at least I hope not....One should always have a sense of adventure and romance.....
[21:18] <ravenshad> true AAhhzz..
[21:18] <aleaya`> yes AAhhzz
[21:18] <Master692> yes
[21:18] <aleaya`> my question is: when does a relationship actually start??
[21:18] * Daughain ponders...
[21:18] <Master692> and a willingness to grow together
[21:18] <ravenshad> in my opinion, when a formal comittment is made..with or without a collar..
[21:18] <ravenshad> yes Master69
[21:19] <aleaya`> so when does the honeymoon start???
[21:19] <Daughain> Usually when two people find themselves enamored with each other.
[21:19] <AAhhzz> Ohhhh....tricky question aleaya`.....when they both admit that there is an attraction?
[21:19] <Master692> i feel it starts when your getting to know each other
[21:19] <ravenshad> sometimes it starts before the comittment has been made...for some it when they first move in together..
[21:19] <ravenshad> good answer Daughain :)
[21:20] * Daughain watches as everyone tries to get their answer in... =0
[21:20] * aleaya` rests her case on that as that is where she was coming from with her previous statements raven
[21:20] <AAhhzz> When the first thing you want to do in the morning is kiss the other...and the last thing you want to do at night is hold them?
[21:20] * LadyMist sits back and reads...
[21:20] <Daughain> But, which answrer do you stand on, Aleaya?
[21:21] <Master692> well thats a given, that should always happen no matter if its a honeymoon or a long term commiment
[21:21] <aleaya`> i think the honeymoon begins when the two realize they are a couple in the D/s world
[21:21] <aleaya`> and decide that a relationship is going to be
[21:22] <ravenshad> Do you think people behave differently during the honeymoon period than they normally would? for example, be on their best behavior..
[21:22] <aleaya`> yes raven, I do
[21:22] <Master692> OH yes I belive they do
[21:22] * LadyMist crowns erself typo queen...
[21:22] * ravenshad giggles..
[21:23] <AAhhzz> Yes they do raven.......
[21:23] <Roamer``> yes they do raven
[21:23] <Roamer``> also, they tend to be more "lenient" ........
[21:23] <ravenshad> ok...can this cause problems?
[21:23] <aleaya`> yes it can
[21:23] <LadyMist> I think soo0...
[21:23] <Roamer``> or maybe i should use the word tolerant
[21:23] * AAhhzz looks at Roamer``...They do?....hummmmmm
[21:23] <Master692> its like a sales men, trying to sell you a car, they want to show you all the good thingas about it and soft sell the flaws
[21:23] <LadyMist> O havbe mentored many that let the sub misbehave for spankings and the like...
[21:24] <ravenshad> I can understand that Roamer..and I agree..that during that period there is more leniency..
[21:24] <aleaya`> if a Master/Dom is too lenient or tolerant then the sub/slave gets the wrong ideas
[21:24] <Roamer``> aleaya`: exactly
[21:24] <ravenshad> yes aleaya..and that can lead to behavioral problems when the honeymoon period wears off..
[21:24] <LadyMist> then was annoyed when they acted out for attention...
[21:24] <Master692> yes
[21:24] <ravenshad> yes LM
[21:24] <aleaya`> nods
[21:24] <LadyMist> and wanted my help fixing the problem...
[21:24] <LadyMist> it was annoying to me ... also...
[21:25] <Master692> but if the Master/Dom is too strict the sub may be turned off, and even want to brake the contract
[21:25] <aleaya`> can be very disconcerting to the sub also
[21:25] <aleaya`> true Master692
[21:25] <ravenshad> true master69
[21:25] <Master692> so its a balence
[21:25] <LadyMist> in fact I was guilty of it yesterday... direct difiance in order to get riegned in... needless to say I was ignored...
[21:25] <ravenshad> I can see how that would be annoying LM
[21:25] <LadyDragn> too strict or keep changing the rules
[21:26] <aleaya`> consistency is the key
[21:26] <ravenshad> keep changing the rules can cause trouble as well...inconcsistency..
[21:26] <Master692> each sub is drifferent
[21:26] <LadyMist> yes... consistancy...
[21:26] <Roamer``> Master692: so is each Dom
[21:26] <aleaya`> i have dropped a Dom/me for that
[21:26] <Master692> no 1 rule may work for them all
[21:26] <LadyDragn> as each Master/Mistress/Dom/me
[21:26] <LadyDragn> is different that is
[21:26] * AAhhzz ponders........Can it be that during the "honeymoon" period that there are just too few rules?
[21:26] <ravenshad> Would you say then that extra communication is very important during the honeymmon period and that each person should recognize that the honeymoon period exists?
[21:26] <aleaya`> might be Ron
[21:27] <Master692> you have to first find out her limits before you start dictating a bunch of rules and exceptations
[21:27] <aleaya`> definitly
[21:27] <LadyMist> extra communication?
[21:27] <ravenshad> depends on the people involved..if the dom feels they are letting the sub get away with too much..then probably so..
[21:27] <EZRiser> Jumping it .. rules should be established before the relationship starts .. but thru communication and discussing the subs needs, can be changed ..
[21:27] <ravenshad> if the sub feels they are walking all over the dom..then yes, too few rules..
[21:27] <aleaya`> exactly EZRiser
[21:27] <ravenshad> yes LM..more discussion about expectations..rules..regular daily life..
[21:27] <LadyDragn> I don't think so....I think it would make it easier if you start with fewer rules and then add to as time goes on.....MO
[21:27] <ravenshad> true EZ
[21:27] <LadyMist> but is that for the sub to decide?
[21:28] <aleaya`> sub's goal is to please Dom............
[21:28] <ravenshad> I don't think it's entirely up to the sub LM..but I do beleive that the sub should have some input..and his/her needs should be taken into consideration when deciding what rules are set..
[21:28] <LadyMist> that they are walking iver the dominant...
[21:28] <EZRiser> communication is important all the time ..
[21:28] <Master692> Yes EZ, but like I said, every sub is drifferent, and there not stamped out, there made, and we have to listen to them and taylor the rules,
[21:29] <aleaya`> yes Master692
[21:29] <LadyMist> but .. ( playing the D's advocate) if I say chensay is NOT walking over me and she feels as though she is... does something REALLY need to change?
[21:29] <aleaya`> subs have feelings and wants and needs too
[21:29] <LadyMist> ( other than her perception?)
[21:29] <Master692> because if every sub was the same it would take all the mystery out of D/s
[21:29] * AAhhzz nods...Yes...perception is everything........
[21:29] <LadyMist> and how they express them is what they learn here...
[21:30] <aleaya`> LadyMist you two would need to sit down and talk it out first
[21:30] <LadyMist> I don't think so...
[21:30] <aleaya`> yes LadyMist
[21:30] <aleaya`> why not LadyMist?
[21:30] <LadyMist> because she would state her opinion...
[21:30] <LadyMist> I would tell her she is acting within my set parametes...
[21:31] <aleaya`> ok then what?
[21:31] <LadyMist> and then she was begin to accept...
[21:31] <LadyMist> sorry...
[21:31] <LadyMist> bad line..
[21:31] <aleaya`> what if she wishes you to be more strict?
[21:31] <LadyMist> she would begin to accept...
[21:31] <EZRiser> but if she needs greater restrictions .. even if they dont seem so to you .. but to fullfill her needs .. then make them
[21:31] <LadyMist> that is not me...
[21:31] <ravenshad> I would say LM with taht example that chensay's perception would need to change..it is possible that there is an underlying emotion causing her to fell that way..
[21:31] <ravenshad> feel even
[21:31] <LadyMist> and she should have known that BEFORE she accepted my collar...
[21:32] <LadyMist> yes... underlying emotion....
[21:32] <aleaya`> not really
[21:32] <LadyMist> that she would need an outlet for...her journal... would be a start...
[21:32] <ravenshad> could it be possible that there comes a time where a sub would need a bit more formality just for a short period of time to help them feel "used"?
[21:32] <LadyMist> why not really?
[21:32] <aleaya`> we dont know our underlying emotions sometimes until we get into a situation
[21:33] <LadyMist> ??
[21:33] <aleaya`> then when they emerge we need a little more help in taking them into check
[21:33] <LadyMist> if she has had time to process a request...
[21:33] <ravenshad> I agree wtih you LM...she should know your expectations before taking a collar and if stricter was what she wanted..she should not have taken a collar..
[21:33] <LadyMist> then she is NOT in the middle of a situation...
[21:34] <LadyMist> the 'situation' is long past...( hours at the very least...)
[21:34] <ravenshad> true aleaya...but often the underlying emotions does not come out in the same way it is felt..for example..a sub feels lonely..instead of getting sad, they get rebellious for attention..the action differs from the emotions..so it is hard to figure out what is causing the behavior..
[21:34] <ravenshad> ok..we are off topic..
[21:34] * LadyMist apologies
[21:34] <LadyMist> my bad..
[21:34] <aleaya`> sorry raven
[21:34] <ravenshad> nothing to apologize for ...I remember it happens at least 10 times in every discussion :)
[21:34] <Roamer``> just about caught up .......
[21:35] * LadyMist is guilty of that at least once in every discussion log
[21:35] <ravenshad> so am I LM :)
[21:35] * mizu giggles
[21:35] * LadyMist grins.
[21:35] <ravenshad> so would you say that knowing yourself, and being able to speak about the way you are..can go a long way towards preventing honeymoon caused problems?
[21:36] <Master692> maybe
[21:36] <Roamer``> ravenshad: yes
[21:36] <Master692> but people do change always
[21:36] <Master692> its a growing time for Master/sub
[21:36] <ravenshad> ayli" I don't neccessarily think that it would because people tend to try to please the other person just to make them happy..even if they explain what they like they generally go out of their way to do things that at other times they might not enjoy
[21:37] <ravenshad> ok ayli..but I'm taling about stuff like "I get cranky in the morning when you wake me up"...this might not happen in the honeymoon period..but will happen when it wears off..so wouldn't you sy being able to warn someone of things like that is a good idea?
[21:37] <aleaya`> ayli?
[21:37] <ravenshad> yes..she's standing right here.. :)
[21:37] *** ravenshad is now known as raven^ayl
[21:37] <raven^ayl> yes Master69 they do change over time
[21:38] * aleaya` glues LadyDragn to the chair
[21:38] <raven^ayl> ayli" yes raven but people are still going to get into the misudnerstanding of "right now you're ok in the morning, so you really can't be all that bad" and then 4 weeks later just because you told them about it, when you actually do it they will still get a little irked..
[21:38] <Roamer``> raven^ayl: speaking from experience ......i think its a good idea
[21:38] <EZRiser> if you dont want to wake up cranky .. just let him sleep
[21:39] <aleaya`> lol EZRiser
[21:39] <raven^ayl> raven: ok ayli..I can see that..and yes it does happen..however, I still feel it is a good idea to discuss such things and give warning..it may not prevent an argument but will help the other at least "know" what you are like...
[21:39] <raven^ayl> ayli" discussion is always a wonderful idea..
[21:39] * AAhhzz chuckles...Easy for someone with the nick EZRiser to say that....LOL
[21:39] <raven^ayl> raven: I agree that you will still have some problems when things occur..that is inevitable.. :)
[21:40] <aleaya`> the honeymoom time is a 'feeling out time'
[21:40] <Master692> i don't think that there are times when there is "no warning' like people do have there off days, both Masters and subs
[21:41] <raven^ayl> so we all generally agree that a honeymoon phase takes place..what are some things people can do to prepare for when it wears off?
[21:41] <Master692> even if you think you know your Master/sub every mood, it may suprise them when there least excepted
[21:41] <EZRiser> to a point aleaya .. but the majority of the feeling out should have been accomplishe before hand
[21:42] <LadyMist> Expect real life to get in the way of your sex life...
[21:42] <raven^ayl> we are two people..raven..and ayli..sharing one puter
[21:42] <raven^ayl> that is a big one LM..and seems one that many people forget..life gets in the way of sex and play..
[21:42] <Roamer``> LadyMist: hehe, real life gets in the way of everything ..........
[21:42] <EZRiser> once a commitment is/has been made .. its time to stick with it .. rules would already be established ..
[21:42] * Ldy_Jewel smiles, and waves hello to everyone
[21:42] <raven^ayl> LOL Roamer
[21:42] <raven^ayl> ayli: children get in the way of everything too
[21:43] <LadyMist> I do NOT wear thigh high boots and weild a crop every minute of the day...LOL
[21:43] <LadyMist> Don't they??
[21:43] <raven^ayl> ayli: *knock knock knock* it's 3AM and I know you're playing in there..I had a nighmare..MOMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!
[21:43] <Roamer``> LadyMist: i dont either (couldnt find boots in my colour)
[21:43] <raven^ayl> you don't LM???
[21:43] <aleaya`> ya dont LadyMist???????
[21:43] * raven^ayl ';s view of LM is shattered
[21:43] <LadyMist> AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH... 'hates nightmares...and midnight toosing of the cookies...and...
[21:43] <AlstrBlck> You mean you don't have hand or thumbcuffs upon your person 24/7 either?
[21:43] <LadyMist> 'snort...'
[21:44] <LadyMist> I do however keep thread around...
[21:44] <LadyMist> more effective than thumbcuffs..
[21:44] <aleaya`> thread cuts
[21:44] <aleaya`> umm off topic again
[21:44] <LadyMist> not if you don't fight it...
[21:44] * LadyDragn sits down very carfully....trying not to fall through again
[21:44] <raven^ayl> So would you say that it is good to discuss the realities of each person rather than stick with the "dreams" peoplke create of each other during a honeymoon period?
[21:44] <LadyMist> 'G'
[21:44] <LadyMist> yes...
[21:45] <aleaya`> yes
[21:46] <Master692> LOl get the ropes :)
[21:46] * AAhhzz thinks....No....you deal with realities as adults must.....but never...never ever stop dreaming....
[21:46] * LadyMist smiles
[21:46] <Master692> Don't dream it, be it
[21:46] <Roamer``> AAhhzz: true, the tricky part is learning to tell the difference ...........
[21:47] * Roamer`` has known ppl who do not)
[21:47] <aleaya`> nods to AAhhzz
[21:47] <EZRiser> sometimes the reality of that slaps you in the face ..
[21:47] * AAhhzz smiles....Saw Rockey Horro picture show when you were younger Master692?
[21:47] <Master692> LOL OH YES!!!!!!
[21:47] * mizu giggles
[21:47] <Master692> I even have that saying on my play room door :)
[21:48] <AAhhzz> True Roamer``........one must not let the dreams cover the reality........but one should try to keep the dreams alive and work torward them......
[21:48] * Roamer`` tries to "jump to the left" ..slips of the floater and sinks gracelessyly to the bottom of the pool
[21:48] <Roamer``> bubble
[21:48] <Roamer``> bubble
[21:48] <Master692> lolololol
[21:48] <Roamer``> exactly so AAhhzz
[21:48] * LadyMist grabs Roamer outta the water...
[21:49] <Master692> 8chock, chuckle, chuckle
[21:49] <raven^ayl> keeping dreams alive is different than viewing someone as a dream not the reality..
[21:49] <Roamer``> thnx LadyMist
[21:49] * AAhhzz gestures and the water leaps out of the pool....floating in midair...long enough for Roamer`` to walk out....
[21:49] <raven^ayl> ayli: I like Roamer..he does the same thing I do when he gets trhown in the pool..sits at the bottom
[21:49] * LadyMist pulls him to the side and listens to the discussions...
[21:49] <Roamer``> yes raven, dreams are important ........but jknowing where they atrat is also very important
[21:50] <aleaya`> very true Roamer``
[21:50] <raven^ayl> raven nods to Roamer...yes
[21:50] * AAhhzz lets the water fall back in...and negilgently alolows one splash to cascade over raven
[21:50] <Master692> but never give up your dreams
[21:50] <raven^ayl> raven sits all wet again..thanks Ron
[21:50] <raven^ayl> what are some things people cna do during the honeymoon period?
[21:50] <aleaya`> have fun
[21:51] <aleaya`> get to know each other's lil quirks
[21:51] <aleaya`> talk
[21:51] <EZRiser> experiment .. test limits .. learn the others needs in greater detail .. and never stop communicating
[21:51] <aleaya`> if living together they can learn all about how the other lives
[21:52] <raven^ayl> ayli: just remember that you're still learning so don't expect anything to stay completley the same forever...
[21:52] <raven^ayl> raven nods..
[21:52] <aleaya`> if you stop learning you stagnate
[21:52] <AAhhzz> What can they do?.......perhaps have nightly discussions...read each others journals.........
[21:52] <raven^ayl> and if you can't adjust to the ups and downs of your partner..the relationship is doomed...
[21:52] <EZRiser> strictly enforce those rules that have been previously established .. discuss those that can be amended
[21:52] <raven^ayl> raven nods..
[21:52] <raven^ayl> good point EZ
[21:53] <aleaya`> yes EZRiser
[21:53] <aleaya`> should a contract be before the honeymoon or after?
[21:53] <raven^ayl> should rules be adjusted during the honeymoon period?
[21:53] * AAhhzz nods....Yes.......that is part of it.......and discuss everything else
[21:53] <EZRiser> before ..
[21:53] <aleaya`> why not after?
[21:54] <AAhhzz> if there is a contract...it should be before the honeymoon
[21:54] <raven^ayl> I don't think it would matter aleaya...because expectations change once a contract is signed..
[21:54] <aleaya`> ok raven
[21:54] <EZRiser> entering into this type of relationship, expectations are there before hand .. they should be spelled out so there is little chance of misundestanding
[21:54] * aleaya` smiles up at Ldy_Jewel
[21:54] <raven^ayl> if you wait until "after" another honeymoon period could actually begin because suddenly the relationship is now more permanent..
[21:54] * Ldy_Jewel smiles, watching on
[21:55] <Master692> It belive it would depend, if the Master has the rules set in stone or if there is room to adjust the rules
[21:55] <EZRiser> no raven ... thats what the contract is for .. for what is expected
[21:55] <raven^ayl> yes...but there is an emotional attachemnt to a contract EZ...so couldn't signing one bring about another love feeling/induced honeymoon period?
[21:55] <aleaya`> BUT....during the honeymoon period is what is expected what happens????
[21:55] <EZRiser> there should always be room for adjustment to them .. everything is negotiable ..
[21:56] <raven^ayl> kind of like the one that occurs after a marriage happens even for people that have been together for years?
[21:56] <raven^ayl> it can be aleaya...
[21:56] <raven^ayl> true EZ..
[21:56] <Master692> the use of Negotiation forms are helpful too
[21:56] <EZRiser> what are prenups before ppl get married ..
[21:56] <raven^ayl> good point EZ...
[21:57] <raven^ayl> could the honeymoon period cause some things in the contract to "slide"? or would there be a clause allowing for the adjustment of the honeymoon period?
[21:57] <aleaya`> should be i think
[21:57] <Master692> no
[21:57] <Master692> If the Master is very strict
[21:57] <Master692> the rules will be met
[21:57] <EZRiser> I think that in the case of establishing rules .. that the opportunity should exist for an abridgement after a set period of time
[21:57] <raven^ayl> personally..I don't think there should be a whole lot of leeway because that would just cause confusion for the sub when the honeymoon wears off and the dom starts getting stricter..
[21:57] <Master692> or done as best as possible
[21:58] <raven^ayl> yes EZ
[21:58] <raven^ayl> some leeway is understandable..but total leeway would be more problematic I thin
[21:58] <raven^ayl> k
[21:58] <Roamer``> raven^ayl: or the reverse
[21:58] *** raven^ayl is now known as ravenshad
[21:58] <ravenshad> true...
[21:58] * aleaya` returns and agrees with raven
[21:58] <EZRiser> in doing so .. both sets of needs can be met ..
[21:58] <ravenshad> it would be a matter of doing what is "right" for both parties involved..
[21:59] <ravenshad> ok..so if a sub is extremely well behaved during the honeymoon period..how can that affect the dom?
[21:59] <Master692> if leeway is given to a sub, would she think its a sigh of weakness of the Master
[21:59] <EZRiser> thats it .. if both parties want the relationship to continue & grow
[21:59] <ravenshad> for some people, if leeway is given too often...then probably yes..
[21:59] <ravenshad> yes EZ
[21:59] <AAhhzz> Can give the Dom unrealistic expectations of good behaviour.....
[22:00] <aleaya`> very true AAhhzz
[22:00] <ravenshad> would that cause the dom to resent the sub when the honeymoon period wears off and the sub reverts to their normal behavior?
[22:00] <aleaya`> probably
[22:00] <AAhhzz> and when the sub gets comfortable and starts relaxing....they can perceive that the Dom has gotten much stricter
[22:00] <ravenshad> or should the dom at least consider the idea of the honeymoon period?
[22:00] <Master692> A Dom should know that not every sub is going to behave, some subs will misbehave just for their Master "personal" attention
[22:00] <ravenshad> yes..that too..
[22:01] <EZRiser> any relationship should not be a case of push or pull .. it should be what fits two ppl best for them, to find one that satisfies your needs .. should the sub need constant repriminding
[22:01] <aleaya`> nodsnods
[22:01] * Roamer`` nods
[22:02] <EZRiser> I dont think so .. thats like establishing something just to find constant friction
[22:02] <aleaya`> some subs are high maintenance
[22:02] <aleaya`> some arent
[22:02] <ravenshad> I don't agree with a sub puprosely misbehaving to get attention..I think that is a sign of something major being wrong and should be taken that way..a whole nother topic :)
[22:02] <EZRiser> true aleaya .. but a Dom should know that before entering into that
[22:03] <LadyDragn> ty everyone
[22:03] <aleaya`> exactly EZRiser
[22:03] <ravenshad> I have exhausted questions on the topic..anyone else want to toss a few out?
[22:04] <EZRiser> one is not negotiating a scene .. but making a commitment with another .. the basis for making that should be well defined before hand
[22:04] <ravenshad> I agree with that EZ..
[22:04] <AAhhzz> Does the Honeymoon period leave the man with unrealistic expectations of sexual activity?....humm raven?
[22:04] <ravenshad> I would guess that it could because it is a known fact that during the honeymoon period people engage in more frequent sex than after it wears off..
[22:04] <Master692> ? do you think a sub should behave 24/7 or have some times of cutting up prommited
[22:05] <ravenshad> but in the case of a d/s relationship..simply making the rule that the sub can't say no to sex should handle that.. :)
[22:05] <ravenshad> I think cutting up at times should be permitted..
[22:05] <aleaya`> me too
[22:05] <EZRiser> whats the third letter in SSC?
[22:05] <ravenshad> consent
[22:05] <Roamer``> ravenshad: was made part of our contract .........i wasnt looking for a sub "pollyanna"
[22:05] * AAhhzz smiles.....Cutting up should be promoted....encouraged....if nothing else it can be foreplay for a play scene
[22:05] <ravenshad> what does that have to do with the topic at hand EZ?
[22:05] <Master692> the use of free peiords should help that
[22:05] <ravenshad> makes sense Roamer.. :)
[22:06] <ravenshad> yes it can be AAhhzz
[22:06] <LadyDragn> you almost have to permit some cutting up.....so the sub can let their hair down so to speak......otherwise the sub will become board worst
[22:06] <EZRiser> sex ... the desire for or lack of ....
[22:06] <ravenshad> frustrated..resentful
[22:06] <Roamer``> ravenshad: i think he was reffering to "consensual"
[22:06] * aleaya` giggles about cutting up periods
[22:07] <ravenshad> we differ on that subject then EZ..I believe a sub's body is no logner theirs when they take a collar and tehrefor do not have the right to say "NO" to sex..because flat out..saying no to a dom is not submitting..
[22:07] <ravenshad> and..such a rule would be agreed to by the sub anyway..which gives consent to such a rule before it is acted upon..
[22:07] <aleaya`> correct raven
[22:07] <Master692> correct
[22:07] <EZRiser> you cant stifle a persons personality .. they have to be who they are .. whatever their demeanor .. they need to be themselves ..
[22:07] <ravenshad> true EZ..
[22:07] <Master692> her body belongs to her Dom
[22:08] <ravenshad> but having the right to tell one's dominant no is not submission...it's playing..in my opinion..
[22:08] * AAhhzz thinks....Well...thats one way of looking at it raven....but I would rather have an enthusiastic Yes than a lackluster Ok
[22:08] <EZRiser> again .. that could/should be something spelled out in the rules before hand ..
[22:08] <ravenshad> ok
[22:08] <EZRiser> it could be a case of no less than .. or no more than X times a week
[22:08] <ravenshad> then the sub is making all the rules...
[22:09] * ravenshad can not do that and still feel submissive..
[22:09] * AAhhzz blinks......and wonders if EZRiser meant XX...for double digits
[22:09] <aleaya`> lol AAhhzz
[22:09] <Master692> do you think a free peiord should be given pryor to a scean
[22:09] <Roamer``> ROFL
[22:09] <Roamer``> or XXX ?
[22:09] <ravenshad> but that's just me..there are plenty of people who believe that a sub has the right to withdraw consent at any time specially if they aren't in the mood for something..or the dom pises them off..
[22:09] <ravenshad> prior to?
[22:09] <aleaya`> as forplay??
[22:09] <AAhhzz> XXX......I hope the paramedics are alerted if there is a contract like that in thier area
[22:09] <EZRiser> everybody's libido is not constant .. it varies .. from week to week .. season to season .. stress and a wide variety of factors can affect ones desires ..
[22:10] <Master692> should one be used in the middle as well
[22:10] <ravenshad> we are off topic..hold on a sec..
[22:10] * ravenshad makes a note..FORMAL DISCUSSION TOPIC ENDS HERE (FOR LOG PURPOSES)
[21:01] * ravenshad says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions on BDSM the following rules apply..
[21:01] <ravenshad> you must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave. Legal age being 18 or 21 depending on your location
[21:02] <ravenshad> no trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night
[21:02] <ravenshad> trolling is the advertising of yourself to get a partner..date or such..
[21:02] <ravenshad> be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[21:02] <ravenshad> and possibly banned
[21:02] <ravenshad> all statements are publishable on the web site, with nicks changed (at your request, email ravnshad@primenet.com if you don't want your nick used.) If an email request is not recieved, that will be taken as consent to post the log in it's entirety using the nicknames.
[21:02] <ravenshad> webmaster@leathernroses.com (need to change that popup.)
[21:02] <Roamer``> LOL
[21:02] * LadyMist grins
[21:02] * mizu giggles
[21:02] <ravenshad> tonight's topic is "Honeymoon periods in BDSM relationships"
[21:03] <ravenshad> lets start with...what is a honeymoon period?
[21:03] <LadyMist> the spansion of time when the "romantic" love endures in couple based BDSM
[21:03] <LadyMist> in service based I am not so sure?
[21:03] <LadyMist> The "getting to know you period" maybe?
[21:04] <aleaya`> a time of not seeing the real underlying faults of each other....just love
[21:04] <ravenshad> Would it be the period of time wehre everything is seen as "great" and "wonderful" and most problems are "ignored" because everythign is new??
[21:04] <aleaya`> almost what i said ravenshad
[21:04] * LadyMist trys to not ignore that which will cause problems later...
[21:04] <ravenshad> yes aleya
[21:04] <AAhhzz> The time during which nothing can be annoying.......His/Her little quicks are "charming"......
[21:04] * LadyMist agrees
[21:04] * Daughain listens..
[21:04] <Master692> AH HA
[21:04] <ravenshad> Does such a time period exist in d/s relationships?
[21:04] <Roamer``> seems ot be a good enough definition to me
[21:05] <LadyMist> LOL... not in mine....\
[21:05] <aleaya`> YES
[21:05] <Master692> depends on the "rules' one has
[21:05] <AAhhzz> I think they exist in all types of relationships.....
[21:05] <Daughain> They do tend to..
[21:05] <Roamer``> ravenshad: i would say in all relationshipsd
[21:05] <ravenshad> I think they exist in all relationships.even bdsm ones..
[21:05] <aleaya`> i agree AAhhzz Sir
[21:05] <ravenshad> how could the honeymoon period affect a bdsm relationship?
[21:05] <LadyMist> doesn't the dominant seem less in control if quirks that will be annoying are charming today?
[21:05] <Master692> i feel it like a feeling out process,
[21:06] * AAhhzz looks at LadyMist....Well........There is not time when the passions and love and the desire makes you gloss over little things?
[21:06] <Roamer``> ravenshad: it could affect expectations
[21:06] <LadyMist> but that is assuming there is passion and love...
[21:06] <ravenshad> could be from that point of view..but I don't tihnk its something that people do on purpose..I think it's human nature and part of the whole "ohhhh wow..she/he is living with me now!! this is great!!' stage..
[21:06] <ravenshad> it could be a feeling out process Master69
[21:06] <LadyMist> there are BDSM relationships where love is seen as a hinderance rather than an asset
[21:06] <ravenshad> true...that is assuming there is love in the relationship..
[21:07] <ravenshad> and yes, that is true as well LM..
[21:07] <aleaya`> true LadyMist
[21:07] * Daughain chuckles softly..
[21:07] <ravenshad> for the sake of discussion..lets stay with love based d/s relationships for now..
[21:07] <ravenshad> then complicate it.. :)
[21:07] <LadyMist> ok...'S'
[21:07] * Daughain snickers..
[21:07] <Roamer``> hehehe
[21:07] * ravenshad grins..
[21:07] <aleaya`> okies
[21:07] * LadyMist loves being complicated...
[21:07] <Master692> check check
[21:07] * LadyMist thinks it is part of her charm..
[21:07] <ravenshad> so do I LM..but discussions work best when we start easy then get more difficult.. )
[21:08] <Roamer``> LadyMist: beats being implicated huh ?
[21:08] <ravenshad> ok..so..for a love based d/s relationship..can the honeymoon period casue problems?
[21:08] <LadyMist> anytime....!! 'thinks there is that beat word again...'
[21:08] <Daughain> Sometimes being implicated can be interesting, Roamer.
[21:09] <Roamer``> ravenshad: i would think so yes ....
[21:09] <ravenshad> how so Roamer?
[21:09] * AAhhzz thinks.......Not so much the "honeymoon" period....but the transistion to the long term life can be...difficult.....
[21:09] <Master692> I belive that the honeymoon phaze can be a very trying time for both Master and sub,
[21:09] <Roamer``> ravenshad: well, as i said earlier .......the honeymoon period could affect the long term expectations ........
[21:09] <aleaya`> a honeymoon is a d/s relationship to me.....should be a time where one gets to know the other one without punishments and other irritating things going on
[21:10] <ravenshad> the question on the table EZ is can the honeymoon period cause problems in a love based relationship> honeymoon period period being when people ignore some things because they are caught up int he "love" aspect..
[21:10] <ravenshad> I can't agree with that aleaya...
[21:10] <ravenshad> how can it affect long term expectations Roamer?
[21:10] <ravenshad> how could it be trying Master69?
[21:10] <Daughain> HOwever, she may have a point, raven...
[21:11] * AAhhzz thinks....No.......I dont think that would be wise....but perhaps a grace period in which the submissive is reminded gently of the rules......
[21:11] <ravenshad> ok..explain please Duaghain
[21:11] <Roamer``> ravenshad: well. for example ......
[21:11] <Daughain> aleaya, would ye expand on that, please?
[21:11] * ravenshad thinks of what AAhhzz just said for a moment..ok..I can see that..yes..that makes sense..
[21:11] * Roamer`` waits
[21:12] <aleaya`> the honeymoon starts the moment a definite relationship is decided upon
[21:12] <ravenshad> sorry all..am a bit rusty..forgot the one thing at a time rule..forgive me..
[21:12] * Daughain chuckles softly..
[21:12] <Master692> well, a sub will try to do her best every time, and as the honeymoon phaze andexpectations are met, one would have to keep up the expectations and thats when things can get sticky, mistakes can be made, and that can jag some nerveas
[21:12] * LadyMist makes note of the one at a time rule...
[21:13] * AAhhzz writes "raven forgot the rules" on the list
[21:13] <ravenshad> makes sense Master69 and I can see how that goes..
[21:13] <ravenshad> so spank me AAhhzz.. :)
[21:13] * mizu giggles
[21:13] <Daughain> She's back on the spankings..
[21:13] * ravenshad LIKES spankings..
[21:13] <ravenshad> ok ok..back to topic at hand..
[21:13] <aleaya`> the couple should talk about all the things expected in that relationship at the very beginning
[21:13] <ravenshad> ok aleaya..
[21:14] <ravenshad> ok..so the honeymoon period can be used as a time period for the people involved to get to know each other better?
[21:14] <aleaya`> then work on each things slowly......but until they get to know each others limits and likes and dislikes.....the honeymoon is still on
[21:14] * AAhhzz nods....That makes sense....but sometimes aleaya` there isnt a "relationship" untill the two ( or 3 or 17 ) involved find themselves in love......
[21:14] <gervaise_> aleaya` how can a couple talk about everything in the beginning?
[21:15] <Master692> me being from the Old school, I see the honeymoon as a never ending process, and the rules of the relationship are tryed and tested,
[21:15] <aleaya`> gervaise_ t hey can if they are not new to d/s
[21:15] <ravenshad> ummm..aleaya..shouldn't those things be discussed before a formal relationship is entered in to? and specially before a live in one comes around?
[21:15] * LadyMist thinks so...
[21:15] <aleaya`> probably raven
[21:15] * Roamer`` thinks they should
[21:15] <gervaise_> ok, so you know where i'm at
[21:15] <ravenshad> then the honeymoon period isn't a time to find out your partner loves bestiality and you don't..
[21:15] <aleaya`> but also go on in discussion thru the honeymoon
[21:15] <AAhhzz> That would be best raven....but in some cases it just doesnt happen.......
[21:16] <ravenshad> I can't agree with everything you said aleaya..
[21:16] <LadyMist> definitely beofre the collar... whenever that happens...
[21:16] <ravenshad> much of those discussions should happen before a formal relationship takes place..
[21:16] <ravenshad> or like LM just said..before the collar..
[21:16] <ravenshad> true AAhhzz..it doesn't..
[21:17] <ravenshad> go ahead Roamer..your turn..
[21:17] <aleaya`> ok i have a question then
[21:17] * aleaya` waits for Roamer``
[21:17] <Roamer``> actually Master692 made much the same point i was about to
[21:17] <ravenshad> ahhh..ok..did you wish to add anything Roamer?
[21:18] * AAhhzz thinks......Well.....even the best discussion before a relationship starts will not prevent finding out new things after it has begun...at least I hope not....One should always have a sense of adventure and romance.....
[21:18] <ravenshad> true AAhhzz..
[21:18] <aleaya`> yes AAhhzz
[21:18] <Master692> yes
[21:18] <aleaya`> my question is: when does a relationship actually start??
[21:18] * Daughain ponders...
[21:18] <Master692> and a willingness to grow together
[21:18] <ravenshad> in my opinion, when a formal comittment is made..with or without a collar..
[21:18] <ravenshad> yes Master69
[21:19] <aleaya`> so when does the honeymoon start???
[21:19] <Daughain> Usually when two people find themselves enamored with each other.
[21:19] <AAhhzz> Ohhhh....tricky question aleaya`.....when they both admit that there is an attraction?
[21:19] <Master692> i feel it starts when your getting to know each other
[21:19] <ravenshad> sometimes it starts before the comittment has been made...for some it when they first move in together..
[21:19] <ravenshad> good answer Daughain :)
[21:20] * Daughain watches as everyone tries to get their answer in... =0
[21:20] * aleaya` rests her case on that as that is where she was coming from with her previous statements raven
[21:20] <AAhhzz> When the first thing you want to do in the morning is kiss the other...and the last thing you want to do at night is hold them?
[21:20] * LadyMist sits back and reads...
[21:20] <Daughain> But, which answrer do you stand on, Aleaya?
[21:21] <Master692> well thats a given, that should always happen no matter if its a honeymoon or a long term commiment
[21:21] <aleaya`> i think the honeymoon begins when the two realize they are a couple in the D/s world
[21:21] <aleaya`> and decide that a relationship is going to be
[21:22] <ravenshad> Do you think people behave differently during the honeymoon period than they normally would? for example, be on their best behavior..
[21:22] <aleaya`> yes raven, I do
[21:22] <Master692> OH yes I belive they do
[21:22] * LadyMist crowns erself typo queen...
[21:22] * ravenshad giggles..
[21:23] <AAhhzz> Yes they do raven.......
[21:23] <Roamer``> yes they do raven
[21:23] <Roamer``> also, they tend to be more "lenient" ........
[21:23] <ravenshad> ok...can this cause problems?
[21:23] <aleaya`> yes it can
[21:23] <LadyMist> I think soo0...
[21:23] <Roamer``> or maybe i should use the word tolerant
[21:23] * AAhhzz looks at Roamer``...They do?....hummmmmm
[21:23] <Master692> its like a sales men, trying to sell you a car, they want to show you all the good thingas about it and soft sell the flaws
[21:23] <LadyMist> O havbe mentored many that let the sub misbehave for spankings and the like...
[21:24] <ravenshad> I can understand that Roamer..and I agree..that during that period there is more leniency..
[21:24] <aleaya`> if a Master/Dom is too lenient or tolerant then the sub/slave gets the wrong ideas
[21:24] <Roamer``> aleaya`: exactly
[21:24] <ravenshad> yes aleaya..and that can lead to behavioral problems when the honeymoon period wears off..
[21:24] <LadyMist> then was annoyed when they acted out for attention...
[21:24] <Master692> yes
[21:24] <ravenshad> yes LM
[21:24] <aleaya`> nods
[21:24] <LadyMist> and wanted my help fixing the problem...
[21:24] <LadyMist> it was annoying to me ... also...
[21:25] <Master692> but if the Master/Dom is too strict the sub may be turned off, and even want to brake the contract
[21:25] <aleaya`> can be very disconcerting to the sub also
[21:25] <aleaya`> true Master692
[21:25] <ravenshad> true master69
[21:25] <Master692> so its a balence
[21:25] <LadyMist> in fact I was guilty of it yesterday... direct difiance in order to get riegned in... needless to say I was ignored...
[21:25] <ravenshad> I can see how that would be annoying LM
[21:25] <LadyDragn> too strict or keep changing the rules
[21:26] <aleaya`> consistency is the key
[21:26] <ravenshad> keep changing the rules can cause trouble as well...inconcsistency..
[21:26] <Master692> each sub is drifferent
[21:26] <LadyMist> yes... consistancy...
[21:26] <Roamer``> Master692: so is each Dom
[21:26] <aleaya`> i have dropped a Dom/me for that
[21:26] <Master692> no 1 rule may work for them all
[21:26] <LadyDragn> as each Master/Mistress/Dom/me
[21:26] <LadyDragn> is different that is
[21:26] * AAhhzz ponders........Can it be that during the "honeymoon" period that there are just too few rules?
[21:26] <ravenshad> Would you say then that extra communication is very important during the honeymmon period and that each person should recognize that the honeymoon period exists?
[21:26] <aleaya`> might be Ron
[21:27] <Master692> you have to first find out her limits before you start dictating a bunch of rules and exceptations
[21:27] <aleaya`> definitly
[21:27] <LadyMist> extra communication?
[21:27] <ravenshad> depends on the people involved..if the dom feels they are letting the sub get away with too much..then probably so..
[21:27] <EZRiser> Jumping it .. rules should be established before the relationship starts .. but thru communication and discussing the subs needs, can be changed ..
[21:27] <ravenshad> if the sub feels they are walking all over the dom..then yes, too few rules..
[21:27] <aleaya`> exactly EZRiser
[21:27] <ravenshad> yes LM..more discussion about expectations..rules..regular daily life..
[21:27] <LadyDragn> I don't think so....I think it would make it easier if you start with fewer rules and then add to as time goes on.....MO
[21:27] <ravenshad> true EZ
[21:27] <LadyMist> but is that for the sub to decide?
[21:28] <aleaya`> sub's goal is to please Dom............
[21:28] <ravenshad> I don't think it's entirely up to the sub LM..but I do beleive that the sub should have some input..and his/her needs should be taken into consideration when deciding what rules are set..
[21:28] <LadyMist> that they are walking iver the dominant...
[21:28] <EZRiser> communication is important all the time ..
[21:28] <Master692> Yes EZ, but like I said, every sub is drifferent, and there not stamped out, there made, and we have to listen to them and taylor the rules,
[21:29] <aleaya`> yes Master692
[21:29] <LadyMist> but .. ( playing the D's advocate) if I say chensay is NOT walking over me and she feels as though she is... does something REALLY need to change?
[21:29] <aleaya`> subs have feelings and wants and needs too
[21:29] <LadyMist> ( other than her perception?)
[21:29] <Master692> because if every sub was the same it would take all the mystery out of D/s
[21:29] * AAhhzz nods...Yes...perception is everything........
[21:29] <LadyMist> and how they express them is what they learn here...
[21:30] <aleaya`> LadyMist you two would need to sit down and talk it out first
[21:30] <LadyMist> I don't think so...
[21:30] <aleaya`> yes LadyMist
[21:30] <aleaya`> why not LadyMist?
[21:30] <LadyMist> because she would state her opinion...
[21:30] <LadyMist> I would tell her she is acting within my set parametes...
[21:31] <aleaya`> ok then what?
[21:31] <LadyMist> and then she was begin to accept...
[21:31] <LadyMist> sorry...
[21:31] <LadyMist> bad line..
[21:31] <aleaya`> what if she wishes you to be more strict?
[21:31] <LadyMist> she would begin to accept...
[21:31] <EZRiser> but if she needs greater restrictions .. even if they dont seem so to you .. but to fullfill her needs .. then make them
[21:31] <LadyMist> that is not me...
[21:31] <ravenshad> I would say LM with taht example that chensay's perception would need to change..it is possible that there is an underlying emotion causing her to fell that way..
[21:31] <ravenshad> feel even
[21:31] <LadyMist> and she should have known that BEFORE she accepted my collar...
[21:32] <LadyMist> yes... underlying emotion....
[21:32] <aleaya`> not really
[21:32] <LadyMist> that she would need an outlet for...her journal... would be a start...
[21:32] <ravenshad> could it be possible that there comes a time where a sub would need a bit more formality just for a short period of time to help them feel "used"?
[21:32] <LadyMist> why not really?
[21:32] <aleaya`> we dont know our underlying emotions sometimes until we get into a situation
[21:33] <LadyMist> ??
[21:33] <aleaya`> then when they emerge we need a little more help in taking them into check
[21:33] <LadyMist> if she has had time to process a request...
[21:33] <ravenshad> I agree wtih you LM...she should know your expectations before taking a collar and if stricter was what she wanted..she should not have taken a collar..
[21:33] <LadyMist> then she is NOT in the middle of a situation...
[21:34] <LadyMist> the 'situation' is long past...( hours at the very least...)
[21:34] <ravenshad> true aleaya...but often the underlying emotions does not come out in the same way it is felt..for example..a sub feels lonely..instead of getting sad, they get rebellious for attention..the action differs from the emotions..so it is hard to figure out what is causing the behavior..
[21:34] <ravenshad> ok..we are off topic..
[21:34] * LadyMist apologies
[21:34] <LadyMist> my bad..
[21:34] <aleaya`> sorry raven
[21:34] <ravenshad> nothing to apologize for ...I remember it happens at least 10 times in every discussion :)
[21:34] <Roamer``> just about caught up .......
[21:35] * LadyMist is guilty of that at least once in every discussion log
[21:35] <ravenshad> so am I LM :)
[21:35] * mizu giggles
[21:35] * LadyMist grins.
[21:35] <ravenshad> so would you say that knowing yourself, and being able to speak about the way you are..can go a long way towards preventing honeymoon caused problems?
[21:36] <Master692> maybe
[21:36] <Roamer``> ravenshad: yes
[21:36] <Master692> but people do change always
[21:36] <Master692> its a growing time for Master/sub
[21:36] <ravenshad> ayli" I don't neccessarily think that it would because people tend to try to please the other person just to make them happy..even if they explain what they like they generally go out of their way to do things that at other times they might not enjoy
[21:37] <ravenshad> ok ayli..but I'm taling about stuff like "I get cranky in the morning when you wake me up"...this might not happen in the honeymoon period..but will happen when it wears off..so wouldn't you sy being able to warn someone of things like that is a good idea?
[21:37] <aleaya`> ayli?
[21:37] <ravenshad> yes..she's standing right here.. :)
[21:37] *** ravenshad is now known as raven^ayl
[21:37] <raven^ayl> yes Master69 they do change over time
[21:38] * aleaya` glues LadyDragn to the chair
[21:38] <raven^ayl> ayli" yes raven but people are still going to get into the misudnerstanding of "right now you're ok in the morning, so you really can't be all that bad" and then 4 weeks later just because you told them about it, when you actually do it they will still get a little irked..
[21:38] <Roamer``> raven^ayl: speaking from experience ......i think its a good idea
[21:38] <EZRiser> if you dont want to wake up cranky .. just let him sleep
[21:39] <aleaya`> lol EZRiser
[21:39] <raven^ayl> raven: ok ayli..I can see that..and yes it does happen..however, I still feel it is a good idea to discuss such things and give warning..it may not prevent an argument but will help the other at least "know" what you are like...
[21:39] <raven^ayl> ayli" discussion is always a wonderful idea..
[21:39] * AAhhzz chuckles...Easy for someone with the nick EZRiser to say that....LOL
[21:39] <raven^ayl> raven: I agree that you will still have some problems when things occur..that is inevitable.. :)
[21:40] <aleaya`> the honeymoom time is a 'feeling out time'
[21:40] <Master692> i don't think that there are times when there is "no warning' like people do have there off days, both Masters and subs
[21:41] <raven^ayl> so we all generally agree that a honeymoon phase takes place..what are some things people can do to prepare for when it wears off?
[21:41] <Master692> even if you think you know your Master/sub every mood, it may suprise them when there least excepted
[21:41] <EZRiser> to a point aleaya .. but the majority of the feeling out should have been accomplishe before hand
[21:42] <LadyMist> Expect real life to get in the way of your sex life...
[21:42] <raven^ayl> we are two people..raven..and ayli..sharing one puter
[21:42] <raven^ayl> that is a big one LM..and seems one that many people forget..life gets in the way of sex and play..
[21:42] <Roamer``> LadyMist: hehe, real life gets in the way of everything ..........
[21:42] <EZRiser> once a commitment is/has been made .. its time to stick with it .. rules would already be established ..
[21:42] * Ldy_Jewel smiles, and waves hello to everyone
[21:42] <raven^ayl> LOL Roamer
[21:42] <raven^ayl> ayli: children get in the way of everything too
[21:43] <LadyMist> I do NOT wear thigh high boots and weild a crop every minute of the day...LOL
[21:43] <LadyMist> Don't they??
[21:43] <raven^ayl> ayli: *knock knock knock* it's 3AM and I know you're playing in there..I had a nighmare..MOMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!
[21:43] <Roamer``> LadyMist: i dont either (couldnt find boots in my colour)
[21:43] <raven^ayl> you don't LM???
[21:43] <aleaya`> ya dont LadyMist???????
[21:43] * raven^ayl ';s view of LM is shattered
[21:43] <LadyMist> AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH... 'hates nightmares...and midnight toosing of the cookies...and...
[21:43] <AlstrBlck> You mean you don't have hand or thumbcuffs upon your person 24/7 either?
[21:43] <LadyMist> 'snort...'
[21:44] <LadyMist> I do however keep thread around...
[21:44] <LadyMist> more effective than thumbcuffs..
[21:44] <aleaya`> thread cuts
[21:44] <aleaya`> umm off topic again
[21:44] <LadyMist> not if you don't fight it...
[21:44] * LadyDragn sits down very carfully....trying not to fall through again
[21:44] <raven^ayl> So would you say that it is good to discuss the realities of each person rather than stick with the "dreams" peoplke create of each other during a honeymoon period?
[21:44] <LadyMist> 'G'
[21:44] <LadyMist> yes...
[21:45] <aleaya`> yes
[21:46] <Master692> LOl get the ropes :)
[21:46] * AAhhzz thinks....No....you deal with realities as adults must.....but never...never ever stop dreaming....
[21:46] * LadyMist smiles
[21:46] <Master692> Don't dream it, be it
[21:46] <Roamer``> AAhhzz: true, the tricky part is learning to tell the difference ...........
[21:47] * Roamer`` has known ppl who do not)
[21:47] <aleaya`> nods to AAhhzz
[21:47] <EZRiser> sometimes the reality of that slaps you in the face ..
[21:47] * AAhhzz smiles....Saw Rockey Horro picture show when you were younger Master692?
[21:47] <Master692> LOL OH YES!!!!!!
[21:47] * mizu giggles
[21:47] <Master692> I even have that saying on my play room door :)
[21:48] <AAhhzz> True Roamer``........one must not let the dreams cover the reality........but one should try to keep the dreams alive and work torward them......
[21:48] * Roamer`` tries to "jump to the left" ..slips of the floater and sinks gracelessyly to the bottom of the pool
[21:48] <Roamer``> bubble
[21:48] <Roamer``> bubble
[21:48] <Master692> lolololol
[21:48] <Roamer``> exactly so AAhhzz
[21:48] * LadyMist grabs Roamer outta the water...
[21:49] <Master692> 8chock, chuckle, chuckle
[21:49] <raven^ayl> keeping dreams alive is different than viewing someone as a dream not the reality..
[21:49] <Roamer``> thnx LadyMist
[21:49] * AAhhzz gestures and the water leaps out of the pool....floating in midair...long enough for Roamer`` to walk out....
[21:49] <raven^ayl> ayli: I like Roamer..he does the same thing I do when he gets trhown in the pool..sits at the bottom
[21:49] * LadyMist pulls him to the side and listens to the discussions...
[21:49] <Roamer``> yes raven, dreams are important ........but jknowing where they atrat is also very important
[21:50] <aleaya`> very true Roamer``
[21:50] <raven^ayl> raven nods to Roamer...yes
[21:50] * AAhhzz lets the water fall back in...and negilgently alolows one splash to cascade over raven
[21:50] <Master692> but never give up your dreams
[21:50] <raven^ayl> raven sits all wet again..thanks Ron
[21:50] <raven^ayl> what are some things people cna do during the honeymoon period?
[21:50] <aleaya`> have fun
[21:51] <aleaya`> get to know each other's lil quirks
[21:51] <aleaya`> talk
[21:51] <EZRiser> experiment .. test limits .. learn the others needs in greater detail .. and never stop communicating
[21:51] <aleaya`> if living together they can learn all about how the other lives
[21:52] <raven^ayl> ayli: just remember that you're still learning so don't expect anything to stay completley the same forever...
[21:52] <raven^ayl> raven nods..
[21:52] <aleaya`> if you stop learning you stagnate
[21:52] <AAhhzz> What can they do?.......perhaps have nightly discussions...read each others journals.........
[21:52] <raven^ayl> and if you can't adjust to the ups and downs of your partner..the relationship is doomed...
[21:52] <EZRiser> strictly enforce those rules that have been previously established .. discuss those that can be amended
[21:52] <raven^ayl> raven nods..
[21:52] <raven^ayl> good point EZ
[21:53] <aleaya`> yes EZRiser
[21:53] <aleaya`> should a contract be before the honeymoon or after?
[21:53] <raven^ayl> should rules be adjusted during the honeymoon period?
[21:53] * AAhhzz nods....Yes.......that is part of it.......and discuss everything else
[21:53] <EZRiser> before ..
[21:53] <aleaya`> why not after?
[21:54] <AAhhzz> if there is a contract...it should be before the honeymoon
[21:54] <raven^ayl> I don't think it would matter aleaya...because expectations change once a contract is signed..
[21:54] <aleaya`> ok raven
[21:54] <EZRiser> entering into this type of relationship, expectations are there before hand .. they should be spelled out so there is little chance of misundestanding
[21:54] * aleaya` smiles up at Ldy_Jewel
[21:54] <raven^ayl> if you wait until "after" another honeymoon period could actually begin because suddenly the relationship is now more permanent..
[21:54] * Ldy_Jewel smiles, watching on
[21:55] <Master692> It belive it would depend, if the Master has the rules set in stone or if there is room to adjust the rules
[21:55] <EZRiser> no raven ... thats what the contract is for .. for what is expected
[21:55] <raven^ayl> yes...but there is an emotional attachemnt to a contract EZ...so couldn't signing one bring about another love feeling/induced honeymoon period?
[21:55] <aleaya`> BUT....during the honeymoon period is what is expected what happens????
[21:55] <EZRiser> there should always be room for adjustment to them .. everything is negotiable ..
[21:56] <raven^ayl> kind of like the one that occurs after a marriage happens even for people that have been together for years?
[21:56] <raven^ayl> it can be aleaya...
[21:56] <raven^ayl> true EZ..
[21:56] <Master692> the use of Negotiation forms are helpful too
[21:56] <EZRiser> what are prenups before ppl get married ..
[21:56] <raven^ayl> good point EZ...
[21:57] <raven^ayl> could the honeymoon period cause some things in the contract to "slide"? or would there be a clause allowing for the adjustment of the honeymoon period?
[21:57] <aleaya`> should be i think
[21:57] <Master692> no
[21:57] <Master692> If the Master is very strict
[21:57] <Master692> the rules will be met
[21:57] <EZRiser> I think that in the case of establishing rules .. that the opportunity should exist for an abridgement after a set period of time
[21:57] <raven^ayl> personally..I don't think there should be a whole lot of leeway because that would just cause confusion for the sub when the honeymoon wears off and the dom starts getting stricter..
[21:57] <Master692> or done as best as possible
[21:58] <raven^ayl> yes EZ
[21:58] <raven^ayl> some leeway is understandable..but total leeway would be more problematic I thin
[21:58] <raven^ayl> k
[21:58] <Roamer``> raven^ayl: or the reverse
[21:58] *** raven^ayl is now known as ravenshad
[21:58] <ravenshad> true...
[21:58] * aleaya` returns and agrees with raven
[21:58] <EZRiser> in doing so .. both sets of needs can be met ..
[21:58] <ravenshad> it would be a matter of doing what is "right" for both parties involved..
[21:59] <ravenshad> ok..so if a sub is extremely well behaved during the honeymoon period..how can that affect the dom?
[21:59] <Master692> if leeway is given to a sub, would she think its a sigh of weakness of the Master
[21:59] <EZRiser> thats it .. if both parties want the relationship to continue & grow
[21:59] <ravenshad> for some people, if leeway is given too often...then probably yes..
[21:59] <ravenshad> yes EZ
[21:59] <AAhhzz> Can give the Dom unrealistic expectations of good behaviour.....
[22:00] <aleaya`> very true AAhhzz
[22:00] <ravenshad> would that cause the dom to resent the sub when the honeymoon period wears off and the sub reverts to their normal behavior?
[22:00] <aleaya`> probably
[22:00] <AAhhzz> and when the sub gets comfortable and starts relaxing....they can perceive that the Dom has gotten much stricter
[22:00] <ravenshad> or should the dom at least consider the idea of the honeymoon period?
[22:00] <Master692> A Dom should know that not every sub is going to behave, some subs will misbehave just for their Master "personal" attention
[22:00] <ravenshad> yes..that too..
[22:01] <EZRiser> any relationship should not be a case of push or pull .. it should be what fits two ppl best for them, to find one that satisfies your needs .. should the sub need constant repriminding
[22:01] <aleaya`> nodsnods
[22:01] * Roamer`` nods
[22:02] <EZRiser> I dont think so .. thats like establishing something just to find constant friction
[22:02] <aleaya`> some subs are high maintenance
[22:02] <aleaya`> some arent
[22:02] <ravenshad> I don't agree with a sub puprosely misbehaving to get attention..I think that is a sign of something major being wrong and should be taken that way..a whole nother topic :)
[22:02] <EZRiser> true aleaya .. but a Dom should know that before entering into that
[22:03] <LadyDragn> ty everyone
[22:03] <aleaya`> exactly EZRiser
[22:03] <ravenshad> I have exhausted questions on the topic..anyone else want to toss a few out?
[22:04] <EZRiser> one is not negotiating a scene .. but making a commitment with another .. the basis for making that should be well defined before hand
[22:04] <ravenshad> I agree with that EZ..
[22:04] <AAhhzz> Does the Honeymoon period leave the man with unrealistic expectations of sexual activity?....humm raven?
[22:04] <ravenshad> I would guess that it could because it is a known fact that during the honeymoon period people engage in more frequent sex than after it wears off..
[22:04] <Master692> ? do you think a sub should behave 24/7 or have some times of cutting up prommited
[22:05] <ravenshad> but in the case of a d/s relationship..simply making the rule that the sub can't say no to sex should handle that.. :)
[22:05] <ravenshad> I think cutting up at times should be permitted..
[22:05] <aleaya`> me too
[22:05] <EZRiser> whats the third letter in SSC?
[22:05] <ravenshad> consent
[22:05] <Roamer``> ravenshad: was made part of our contract .........i wasnt looking for a sub "pollyanna"
[22:05] * AAhhzz smiles.....Cutting up should be promoted....encouraged....if nothing else it can be foreplay for a play scene
[22:05] <ravenshad> what does that have to do with the topic at hand EZ?
[22:05] <Master692> the use of free peiords should help that
[22:05] <ravenshad> makes sense Roamer.. :)
[22:06] <ravenshad> yes it can be AAhhzz
[22:06] <LadyDragn> you almost have to permit some cutting up.....so the sub can let their hair down so to speak......otherwise the sub will become board worst
[22:06] <EZRiser> sex ... the desire for or lack of ....
[22:06] <ravenshad> frustrated..resentful
[22:06] <Roamer``> ravenshad: i think he was reffering to "consensual"
[22:06] * aleaya` giggles about cutting up periods
[22:07] <ravenshad> we differ on that subject then EZ..I believe a sub's body is no logner theirs when they take a collar and tehrefor do not have the right to say "NO" to sex..because flat out..saying no to a dom is not submitting..
[22:07] <ravenshad> and..such a rule would be agreed to by the sub anyway..which gives consent to such a rule before it is acted upon..
[22:07] <aleaya`> correct raven
[22:07] <Master692> correct
[22:07] <EZRiser> you cant stifle a persons personality .. they have to be who they are .. whatever their demeanor .. they need to be themselves ..
[22:07] <ravenshad> true EZ..
[22:07] <Master692> her body belongs to her Dom
[22:08] <ravenshad> but having the right to tell one's dominant no is not submission...it's playing..in my opinion..
[22:08] * AAhhzz thinks....Well...thats one way of looking at it raven....but I would rather have an enthusiastic Yes than a lackluster Ok
[22:08] <EZRiser> again .. that could/should be something spelled out in the rules before hand ..
[22:08] <ravenshad> ok
[22:08] <EZRiser> it could be a case of no less than .. or no more than X times a week
[22:08] <ravenshad> then the sub is making all the rules...
[22:09] * ravenshad can not do that and still feel submissive..
[22:09] * AAhhzz blinks......and wonders if EZRiser meant XX...for double digits
[22:09] <aleaya`> lol AAhhzz
[22:09] <Master692> do you think a free peiord should be given pryor to a scean
[22:09] <Roamer``> ROFL
[22:09] <Roamer``> or XXX ?
[22:09] <ravenshad> but that's just me..there are plenty of people who believe that a sub has the right to withdraw consent at any time specially if they aren't in the mood for something..or the dom pises them off..
[22:09] <ravenshad> prior to?
[22:09] <aleaya`> as forplay??
[22:09] <AAhhzz> XXX......I hope the paramedics are alerted if there is a contract like that in thier area
[22:09] <EZRiser> everybody's libido is not constant .. it varies .. from week to week .. season to season .. stress and a wide variety of factors can affect ones desires ..
[22:10] <Master692> should one be used in the middle as well
[22:10] <ravenshad> we are off topic..hold on a sec..
[22:10] * ravenshad makes a note..FORMAL DISCUSSION TOPIC ENDS HERE (FOR LOG PURPOSES)
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