Community Rules; Fact or Fiction?

[20:35] * ravenshad says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions on BDSM the following rules apply.. 
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[20:35] <ravenshad> that being 18 or 21 depending on your area.. 
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[20:36] <ravenshad> The log will be posted tomorrow night..if you do not want your nick used, you must email me.. 
[20:36] <ravenshad> failure to email me, will be taken as consent to your nick remaining a part of the log... 
[20:36] <ravenshad> any questions? 
[20:36] <chens{LM}> nope *giggles* 
[20:36] <subdancer> what is the subject tinight wwhhaaaa 
[20:37] <subdancer> oops  
[20:37] <ravenshad> The subject tonight is..."Community Rules, Fact or Fiction?" 
[20:37] <ravenshad> I think the best way to start this is with the following question..what is a community 
[20:37] <ravenshad> ? 
[20:37] * _mizu_ giggles 
[20:37] <LM{c}> Community is the support structure you depend on 
[20:38] <LM{c}> those who you turn to in times of trouble 
[20:38] <LM{c}> those who turn to you... 
[20:38] <Jackal{sk> in what form there can be many diffrent commmunities 
[20:38] <fbryan> A community is the group of people you interact with. 
[20:38] <LM{c}> the community of BDSM 
[20:39] <cal{TW}> is this a smallcommunity ...ie such a several living in a home?  or is it the community of others in BSDM? 
[20:39] <ravenshad> ok...my understanding of a community is a bit different...but I could be wrong.. 
[20:39] <LM{c}> those whom you ask advice of... 
[20:39] <ravenshad> these discussions are as it pertains to BDSM cal :) 
[20:40] * cal{TW} lsitens 
[20:40] <ravenshad> I always thought of the word community as it pertains to living arrangements..cities and towns are called "communities"... 
[20:40] <LM{c}> raven what do you think of community? 
[20:40] <_mizu_> a secound family formed from the people you act with outside your family 
[20:40] <ravenshad> but it seems the word now encompases "groups with similar interests" as a "community" 
[20:40] <subdancer> there is the Internet BDSM community and those in Y/your town or area 
[20:41] <ntalia> it has been odd. i had no special bdsm community when i served. when i was alone, i found there was a community but most of the real life community i've found is about group get togethers with which i'm not comfortable. it's only here that i've found a bdsm community that doesn't have to always be about sex. 
[20:41] <LM{c}> but don't you choose where you live for reasons of finding people who are similar? 
[20:41] * cal{TW} thinks there are no others in her area involved in BDSM 
[20:41] <ravenshad> not everyone can be that lucky LM..I chose where I live by having people I know near by (be they BDSM or not) 
[20:41] <ntalia> sometimes LM you simply find yourself someplace without having made a choice. 
[20:42] <_mizu_> must live in Kansas cal 
[20:42] <cal{TW}> idaho 
[20:42] * LM{c} wishes BDSM wasn't necessarily assoc with sex...(all the time!) 
[20:42] <subdancer> i found as long as i was collared they stayed silent 
[20:42] * _mizu_ giggles 
[20:42] <cal{TW}> lol mizu 
[20:42] <Jackal{sk> <LM{c} I disagree sometimes hard times fall causing one to live where they would prefer not to 
[20:42] <ravenshad> ok..so BDSM is called a community by virtue of "similar likes"...does that sound about right? 
[20:43] <subdancer> the second the collar was gone they let themselves be known 
[20:43] <Bugs42`> a group of individuals that interact with a purpose 
[20:43] <LM{c}> sounds right to me... 
[20:43] <_mizu_> more a common interest raven 
[20:43] <Jackal{sk> sounds right 
[20:43] <LM{c}> agreed....commen interest...similar likes... 
[20:43] <Bugs42`> what do you see as a community, raven? 
[20:44] <ravenshad> OK..now the other things everyone mentioned.. 
[20:44] <Mltdwn> good evening! 
[20:44] <ravenshad> like "support network" people turn to for advice etc. etc. fall under the words "family" "friends" "extended family" for me.. 
[20:45] <fbryan> *nodding* family, friends, extended family are a part of the community, but the community also includes others 
[20:45] <LM{c}> since I am poly they fall under community for me...family is those whom I trust with my life...(or my children being that I leve where I leve) 
[20:45] <Jackal{sk> would you consider this a family or community? 
[20:46] <LM{c}> leve = live 
[20:46] <ravenshad> The regulras of LnR..I consider to be an extended family.. 
[20:46] * LM{c} smiles 
[20:47] * chens{LM} impulsively hugs raven 
[20:47] <AlstrBlck> When I got back onto the net after 2 years, this is the FIRST place I came.  This channel was home to me then, and am glad Ii was welcomed back. 
[20:47] <ravenshad> IN a community that is created by common interests (BDSM in this case)..who should decide the rules? if any.. 
[20:47] * ravenshad hus chens back 
[20:47] <ravenshad> hugs even 
[20:47] * ravenshad smiles..we were glad to see you back AB.. :) 
[20:47] * chens{LM} giggles 
[20:47] <LM{c}> I think that still should be left to the individuals.. 
[20:48] <Bugs42`> you are asking if a community should set rules? 
[20:48] <ravenshad> yes..I am..specifically should a BDSM "Community" set rules? 
[20:48] <cal{TW}> being in experienced in real life as of yet...but with long discussion with my Master as we work toward real time...the rules are ours to make...waht works for us.. 
[20:48] <LM{c}> everyone still has to find their own way...this is highly personal 
[20:49] <fbryan> absolutly...any community needs rules 
[20:49] <Jackal{sk> maybe a set of common rules 
[20:49] <subdancer> oh rrrreally   *BAD* 
[20:49] <ravenshad> I agree that it is highly personal..but there seems to be a movement to somehow set community standards across the board for everyone in BDSM...do you find this a good thing, or does it detract from BDSM for you? 
[20:49] <chens{LM}> i dont think the "community" should set rules... i think that belongs between the people who are interacting with eachother 
[20:49] <LM{c}> but how can anyone set commen rules? 
[20:49] <ravenshad> I don't know LM..but some are trying.. 
[20:49] * _mizu_ giggles 
[20:50] <cal{TW}> if the community sets rules..who enforces them?? and who determines the consequences?? 
[20:50] <Bugs42`> I agree, community is nice for fellowship and advice, but in NO WAY should there be a set of community rules, I see it as an extremely bad thing 
[20:50] <LM{c}> I mean SSC has become some kind of banner to fall behind...but haven't we found out that very little we do is safe? 
[20:50] <ravenshad> there is a list of "slave rights" that is given out by a major BDSM group in r/l..these are "rights" that a slave has in their relationship..regardless of what the dominant or even the slave, wants.. 
[20:50] <_mizu_> if they do that i am in big trouble 
[20:50] <fbryan> that would be saying that everyone involved in BDSM is part of the same community...which i don't believe to be true 
[20:50] <ravenshad> good question cal.. 
[20:50] * LM{c} doesn't want rights as a slave... 
[20:50] <ravenshad> you're right fbryan...we are not all the same...setting rules on "everyone' would be extremely difficult in my opinion 
[20:51] <ravenshad> I agree Bugs.. 
[20:51] <fbryan> the person who creates the community has the right to create & enforce 
[20:51] <chens{LM}> i think that individuals opinions differ so much that there could never be a consensus on what the rules should be...  
[20:51] <ravenshad> (That list I mentioned, goes for submissives as well) 
[20:51] <Bugs42`> I agree cal, once rules are set, there has to be inforcement and then the my kink is ok yours isn't 
[20:51] <LM{c}> I look to community to feel not so alone... 
[20:51] <cal{TW}> i agree Bugs Sir 
[20:52] <fbryan> and if the community is not 'created' by one person then a 'leader' needs to be chosen from the people involved in the community 
[20:52] <Jackal{sk> in a community as BDSM only agreements can be made right 
[20:52] <ravenshad> Should there be anything that should apply to every relationship, in your opinion? if so.,.what? 
[20:52] <LM{c}> I don't like the thought of excluding anyone.. 
[20:52] <Bugs42`> I mean even SSC is something I do not totally agree with becuase it is something that tries to set what is sane and safe 
[20:52] <cal{TW}> i think community is more for fellowship...where to gather meet withothers of similar interests and share ideas new and old...i dont think yiou can set rules...seems alot like what Hitler tried to do...that didnt turn out to weelll 
[20:52] <LM{c}> consentuality...even if it is only once... 
[20:52] <Bugs42`> so imagine if there was a community rules attitude 
[20:53] <Bugs42`> ok, if you set consentuality as a rule, do YOU enforce it? 
[20:53] <LM{c}> not me... 
[20:53] <ntalia> i think in private, that the household sets the rules, but in public play parties, i think the community sets the rules 
[20:53] <LM{c}> I want it...I don't think it can be enforced... 
[20:54] <ravenshad> The people involved in BDSM can't enforce it.. 
[20:54] <ravenshad> if something is done without consent..it becomes a legal crime..uncder the laws of the area the people are in.. 
[20:54] <LM{c}> (excuse me...I had a run in with my abusive first hubbie this weekend...) 
[20:54] <LM{c}> agreed. 
[20:54] <ravenshad> that is above and beyond the BDSM community.. 
[20:54] <cal{TW}> then if the community cant enforce it...who would you want  to enforce it?? someone who has no understanding of the community?? 
[20:54] <LM{c}> I just wish more people would press charges... 
[20:54] <ravenshad> someone recently said that their "community" is working towards having anything relating to BDSM being taken out of the hands of the police and settled with their "Board of Peers".... 
[20:54] <Bugs42`> ok, so if we cannot enforce it, why make it a rule? 
[20:55] <ravenshad> honestly Bugs..I don't know.. 
[20:55] <cal{TW}> wow 
[20:55] <LM{c}> morality? 
[20:55] <LM{c}> sense of honor? 
[20:55] <_mizu_> now that would suck 
[20:56] <ravenshad> why would it suck mizu? 
[20:56] <_mizu_> thoed work well Lady Misti, but even they can be prevertied by a person in charge 
[20:56] <fbryan> Dom/mes make rules for his/her sub(s)....that to me is the 'core' of this type of lifestyle...and if we want/desire rules in the 'core' of who we are...does it not make sense that we would also want rules in the communities we CHOOSE to participate in? 
[20:56] <Jackal{sk> I don't like being told what I can and can not do in my house or community as long as it doesn't harm or hurt 
[20:56] <LM{c}> I wouldn't want to be held accountable to a board of peers either...I know I am on the wrong isde of the law now...but 
[20:56] <LM{c}> hurt is relative...LOL 
[20:57] * chens{LM} grins 
[20:57] <ntalia> if one would not honor the rules of the community, how could you get them to submit to a peer committee 
[20:57] <_mizu_> that is why i left the frist group i was with 
[20:57] <LM{c}> but what if you were held to rules of not your choice... 
[20:57] <ravenshad> the problem with that fbrayn is, the community i so diverse that what I like in my relationships, may not be what you like..but if I am the one making the rules for the community, I wouldn't take into consideration what is right for you..only what I feel is right for me..or the way that I see as being the one true way.. 
[20:57] <lil`dragn> don't some comunities have what is called a red list?? I have heard of such before....basicly a list of "unsafe" people....wouldn't that work?? 
[20:58] <fbryan> then the 'community' needs to be broken down into smaller communities 
[20:58] <LM{c}> For example...I am not into blood play...but there are those that are.. 
[20:58] <Mltdwn> To Me.... 
[20:58] <Bugs42`> unsafe in what way dragn? 
[20:58] <Mltdwn> the community has the basic rule that you discussed.... 
[20:58] <_mizu_> then the in fighting begiins fbryan 
[20:58] <Mltdwn> consent... 
[20:58] <ntalia> 'that works for people established in the community, but does nothing for those new to the community or operating as i was outside a knowledge tha a community existed. 
[20:59] <Jackal{sk> but you could never get everyone to agree 
[20:59] <cal{TW}> i think that is why you have discussions with your Dom/mmes and what you feel you want ina  realtionship together...it is too individualized to be set up by a few ppl 
[20:59] <ravenshad> problem is dragn, what one person considers to be unsafe, others may see it as just fine 
[20:59] <Mltdwn> as long as that is always an integerla part of your lifestyle then you are wothy of who and what you are and should not fell swayed by others beliefs. 
[20:59] <lil`dragn> in the way of crossing limits...hard or soft....on a regular bases...just because they feel they have the "right" to  
[20:59] <fbryan> but raven even started this discussion with 'rules'....necessary in this 'community' to allow for effective discussion 
[21:00] <ravenshad> yes I did fbryan... 
[21:00] <lil`dragn> that is true raven...but in that case limits would differ 
[21:00] <Bugs42`> agreed, she had rules in this single area... not in your lifestyle 
[21:00] <chens{LM}> yes but she is not making rules for how we play with one another 
[21:00] <ravenshad> but those rules come from experience in dealing with cyber discussions and channels online.. 
[21:00] <chens{LM}> just how to interact in this forum 
[21:00] <ravenshad> but, would you follow my rules if I were to suddenly start making rules about how you should run your relationships? 
[21:00] * LM{c} lookjs aroudn curiously 
[21:01] * chens{LM} grins impishly...of COURSE raven *giggles* 
[21:01] <cal{TW}> and the individual is allowed to choose if they agree with those room rules alos...they can leave if they wish 
[21:01] <ravenshad> LOL chens 
[21:01] <fbryan> *smiling* depends on whether i wanted to join this 'community' for more than just the discussion nights 
[21:01] <Jackal{sk> No we could leave and go elsewhere 
[21:01] <ravenshad> well fbryan, I have no rules here about how to run anyone else's relationships..(I have enough trouble running my own!! LOLOL) 
[21:01] <ravenshad> but there are channel rules..they basically boil down to respect.. 
[21:01] * LM{c} chuckles 
[21:02] <cal{TW}> lol chens 
[21:02] <Mltdwn> exacly ravenshad  
[21:02] <fbryan> exactly...because the type of 'community' we have here at this moment is a 'channel/chat' community 
[21:02] <Bugs42`> however, here the worst that could happen is you get kicked and banned for not following rules, what about what dragn mentioned, a "redlist" that tell people in town that you are unsafe by their standards 
[21:02] * chens{LM} grins 
[21:03] <LM{c}> I like that idea....information doesn't hurt anyone.. 
[21:03] <cal{TW}> that "redlist" similar to the black lists of the sixties and the publisity of pedofiles that are published today... 
[21:03] <Bugs42`> isn't that what normally happens in r/l communities? 
[21:03] <_mizu_> they usualy form there own group Sir 
[21:03] <LM{c}> when I was hurt by another Dom I let the respected Dom in his area know...so other subs could be told 
[21:04] <lil`dragn> someone would get on the "red list" when it is mentioned that this person purpously push and passed limits set for that session just because they felt like it without regard to the other person involved 
[21:04] <chens{LM}> i would feel safer with one but i think it would have to say WHY someone thought they were unsafe...not just that they were considered unsafe 
[21:04] <Bugs42`> NO, infrmation does not hurt? ok, I like blood play, you do not but lets say I am on that list because of that 
[21:04] <LM{c}> Yes....a full disclosure... 
[21:04] <fbryan> *nodding* i agree with chens 
[21:04] <LM{c}> that is not a reason to be one that list 
[21:04] * ravenshad scrolls back 
[21:05] * _mizu_ giggles 
[21:05] <Bugs42`> ok, and would you want to ensure the information is accurate and correct? 
[21:05] <ravenshad> problem with redlists is one can be put on it because of vengence reasons.. 
[21:05] <LM{c}> you cut someone to the need of stiches and you did not get medical help...that is different... 
[21:05] <cal{TW}> the "lists" are the same as rules...individualized and limited to each persons views of safe and  unsafe 
[21:05] <Bugs42`> how many mistakes would it take before it "hurt" someone? 
[21:05] <chens{LM}> well that way people who like bloodplay wouldnt consider that person unsafe and people who dont like it would know and not get involved 
[21:05] * ntalia has to go. bye. 
[21:05] *** ntalia has quit IRC (Leaving) 
[21:05] <fbryan> it should be the same as a 'credit report' ...if you disagree you can add your comments to it 
[21:05] <ravenshad> someone tried to "redlist" me online, using lies and rumor...they failed, but for a while I was banned from many channels for stuff I did not do..the same can happen in r/l 
[21:06] <LM{c}> nothing is perfect.... 
[21:06] <Bugs42`> so, perhaps we should basically publish playlists is ewhat you are saying? 
[21:06] <_mizu_> that is true raven 
[21:06] <cal{TW}> and who goes out to "enforse" safety...does the community then need "gestapo" type ppl to enforce thier rules? 
[21:06] <LM{c}> no...I am talking about reallife word of mouth... 
[21:06] <AlstrBlck> Who is to say who decides what is safe and what is unsafe?  Something one person finds unsafe, others would enjoy.  An example, skydiving. 
[21:06] <ravenshad> no nothing is perfect, but a redlist can far too easily be abused 
[21:06] <lil`dragn> the people who like bloodplay would consider that person unsafe if it was known that the other person involed had blood play as a limit.....and had no desire to go there...and was taken there anyway 
[21:07] <LM{c}> I agree... 
[21:07] <Bugs42`> ok, how would you punish that person dragn? 
[21:07] <Jackal{sk> I agree <ravenshad> 
[21:07] <ravenshad> I would hope we wouldn't have to resort to a gestapo type thing.. 
[21:08] <cal{TW}> me either raven.. 
[21:08] <ravenshad> problem is, some people are advocating just that.. 
[21:08] <ravenshad> a group of people to police other's relationships by their standards... 
[21:08] <ravenshad> Doesn't that take away from what BDSM is? 
[21:09] <Bugs42`> what about the Master that does not notice his subs wrists are getting hurt when suspended? 
[21:09] <Jackal{sk> how would one decid the punishment 
[21:09] <LM{c}> But information..given in the spirit of help.... 
[21:09] <cal{TW}> yet how can you determine who is being"safe" it is word of mouth and a trust issue...that can be abused by ppl at anytime for whatever reasons 
[21:09] <Bugs42`> would you punish that person and "redlist" them? 
[21:09] <fbryan> true...and we each do have to take responsiblity for our actions and doing our best not to put ourselves into dangerous situations (*shaking head*....not quite the right words in a BSDM community..but think i've made my point) 
[21:09] <lil`dragn> that is where the redlist comes in.....it would take more than one or two situations to get the person to the redlist....and possibly have a yellow list as a "lets see" type of thing 
[21:09] <chens{LM}> brb 
[21:09] <Bugs42`> ok, dragn, I would immediately be placed on that redlist becuase I do not allow a safeword 
[21:10] * cal{TW} looks around her local area to see who is gonna police her, watching carefully to stay away from the "white supremesists" that live here 
[21:10] <AlstrBlck> I would be placed because I have used electricity on someone. 
[21:10] <Mltdwn> I am in agreement woth Bugs... 
[21:10] <LM{c}> I don't have one wither...that is not placemetn there in my book 
[21:10] <lil`dragn> but Bugs...you do allow safewords....I had one when we played...didn't I????  
[21:10] <Mltdwn> I do not like the idea of a red list... 
[21:10] <_mizu_> i would be there to, for how i was trained 
[21:10] <Bugs42`> yes, but you were sub, with slave I do not 
[21:11] <ravenshad> I would be too..for the things I want to do, have done, and enjoy doing.. 
[21:11] <ravenshad> I have no safeword dragn, as far as I am concerned.. 
[21:11] <Mltdwn> I would also be on it. 
[21:11] <lil`dragn> ok...but that was agreed upon before anything happened..no?? 
[21:11] <LM{c}> consent....if only once...'S' 
[21:11] <Mltdwn> For Me...the lisst would take away from the open mindedness that we (I ) am so proud of. 
[21:11] <ravenshad> not really dragn, it just "happened"..i no longer felt the need to have one..said I would prefer not to..and boom..it was gone.. 
[21:11] <fbryan> as long as the other party is fully aware & in agreement with ...then no problem...a 'redlist' would be appropriate only for situations where say Bugs told me i could use a safeword and then i did and he didn't respect it 
[21:12] <Mltdwn> that this community represents 
[21:12] <cal{TW}> see that is were it boils down again to each individual and thier  partner 
[21:12] <Bugs42`> yes, dragn, but it also points out that people need to know who they play with, we need to take responsibility for ourselves 
[21:12] <Mltdwn> Yes! 
[21:12] <lil`dragn> and because of that...if I had used a safeword and you refused to stop and continued .... the first time we did anything.....would that not be an unsafe move?? 
[21:12] <ravenshad> yes it would be an unsafe move dragn...but is that up to someone else to decide, or is it up to the people involved to decide what they consider safe? 
[21:12] <Mltdwn> lil`dragn .... 
[21:13] <Jackal{sk> someone could even say that you didn't stop when you did 
[21:13] <Mltdwn> in that case they are wrong...but a red list would not stop that from happening.... 
[21:13] <ravenshad> exactly Jackael 
[21:13] <lil`dragn> no it wouldn't stop it from happening....but it would let ppl know there is a potention.... 
[21:13] <cal{TW}> unless you have a "police" type person a "witness" to your play etc...then it would be to easy to aobuse and very difficult to enforce community rule 
[21:13] <ravenshad> What I am wondering, is do you agree that any one group has the right to set a list of "rules" by which you MUST live your BDSM relationships, or they are not BDSM? 
[21:14] <Bugs42`> and what if you thought you said it, burt didn't dragn?  In subspace you sometimes do not know 
[21:14] <Mltdwn> I fear all it would do is make us use it as a skape goat...instead of researching and playing safe when meeting someone we would refer to the red list. 
[21:14] <fbryan> that's true of anything in life Jackal 
[21:14] <LM{c}> but that would be opposed ny other people whom you have played with 
[21:14] <ravenshad> well said Mlt and a good point.. 
[21:14] <Jackal{sk> People can have sick minds one needs to know the ones around them before going any further 
[21:14] <Mltdwn> ravenshad  I think that there is no ONE list.. 
[21:14] <ravenshad> that's what I am trying to adress here Mltdwn.. 
[21:15] <Mltdwn> we all have our own rukes to set out... 
[21:15] <ravenshad> there are indeed groups who are trying to present a "list" a One right way..for ALL in BDSM.. 
[21:15] <Bugs42`> I simply do not agree with anyone stting rules for my lifestyle 
[21:15] <ravenshad> they call it "Community Rules" 
[21:15] <Mltdwn> although if at anothers place/channel you have to respect thiers. 
[21:15] <lil`dragn> just because someone is on the red list doesn't mean no one play with them....just be carful 
[21:15] <Jackal{sk> between one another? 
[21:15] <ravenshad> don't community rules (laws) have to be agreed upon by the majority?  
[21:15] <fbryan> No...we are all different and have our own definitions etc....to take away that is to take away our 'humanity' 
[21:15] <Bugs42`> that is not the way it would work dragn 
[21:16] <_mizu_> not always reaen 
[21:16] <ravenshad> true mizu.. 
[21:16] <fbryan> and as such don't believe it's possible to create a 'universal' community 
[21:16] <lil`dragn> that is the way it worked with the "red list" I was told about.... 
[21:16] <cal{TW}> rofl 
[21:16] <ravenshad> my point exactly fbryan!! :) 
[21:16] <ravenshad> I don't think there is any way to create a universal BDSM comunity..we are far too diverse to do that.. 
[21:17] <LM{c}> but can't we exist as a community and be accepting of everyone? 
[21:17] <Balg59> what if my household rules are different than those of the BDSM community as a whole 
[21:17] <ravenshad> ok.. :) 
[21:17] <Balg59> would it be right for the whole to change my house 
[21:17] <ravenshad> I don't honestly know LM..it seems tolerance doesn't exist in any larger amount in BDSM than it does outside it.. 
[21:18] <ravenshad> I don't think so Balg.. 
[21:18] <Bugs42`> I know my household rules would be different, but if I am at your house, I abide by your rules 
[21:18] <Balg59> true 
[21:18] <LM{c}> I know it doesn't but I wish being that we have such a hard time being different that we could show better acceptance... 
[21:18] <fbryan> *nodding at Bugs* ...because you walked into a different 'community' 
[21:18] <Jackal{sk> thats true bugs respect the house 
[21:19] <ravenshad> For example, there is a community is Georgia I believe, that says any permanent body marking is abuse and not BDSM...this includes peircings and tatoos... 
[21:19] <LM{c}> but my house rules change when someone comes in who isn't comfortable with them 
[21:19] <ravenshad> is it right for someone to set a rule like that for all of those involved in BDSM? 
[21:19] <LM{c}> nope 
[21:19] <cal{TW}> i dont think so raven 
[21:19] * _mizu_ giggles 
[21:19] <Jackal{sk> no 
[21:20] <Balg59> no raven i don't think so 
[21:20] <ravenshad> this particular group is trying to have that adopted as a general rule for BDSM.. 
[21:20] <cal{TW}> i know my own rules jsut personally are different when others come into my home...i try to respect the wide differences fo my firends 
[21:20] <_mizu_> know many people who would be pissed at that 
[21:20] <fbryan> that's your choice LM 
[21:20] <ravenshad> I feel that the more people set rules for others, the more people will ignore those rules.. 
[21:20] <LM{c}> nope that's Milord's choice...'S" 
[21:20] * cal{TW} proudly wears her collar in her navel 
[21:20] <ravenshad> I would be...since I got my nipples peirced mizu..and I love them!! 
[21:20] * LM{c} proudly wears her collar around her neck everyday..'s' 
[21:20] * sahara wears her collar around her neck... anywhere she goes 
[21:20] * cal{TW} would be very upset if that was determined abuse 
[21:21] <ravenshad> but that's "abuse" by this particular's group's rules..and I would be "blacklisted" if I lived in that community,..as a danger to myself.. 
[21:21] <sahara> oh raven??? you finally got them pierced???? 
[21:21] <Balg59> "Oh rrrreally <holds hand up *bad*" i agree cal 
[21:21] * LM{c} can't wait to have my nipples done again... 
[21:21] <_mizu_> humm, guess the saber scars would count  
[21:21] <ravenshad> and master, would be labelled abusive.. 
[21:21] <ravenshad> yes sahara...a few weeks ago.. :) 
[21:22] <Jackal{sk> your body is yours and one should add what they want or dont want 
[21:22] <sahara> awesome isn't it 
[21:22] <fbryan> then move to another community 
[21:22] <ravenshad> I think so yes.. :) 
[21:22] <ravenshad> and if that isn't feasible fbryan? 
[21:22] * LM{c} thinks it is more abusive to take a razor to my own arms than to let Milord hurt me... 
[21:22] <cal{TW}> why should we have to move from a community because a few dont care for a certain way of expressingyour self? 
[21:22] <fbryan> *sigh* then we have a problem :( 
[21:22] * _mizu_ giggles 
[21:22] <LM{c}> but I am getting off topic...'smiling at raven' 
[21:23] <ravenshad> this particular group..blacklists people and puts them down publically within the community..effectively cutting them off from it.. 
[21:23] <Jackal{sk> cal these are closed minded people and we can't allow them to effect us 
[21:23] <sahara> what community are you talking about... doing the blac liting? 
[21:24] <ravenshad> a group in Georgia...I won't use names as that would be "badmouthing" someone behind their back.. 
[21:24] <cal{TW}> i agree Sir Jackal...but if they are going to blacklist you...do you move?? or stay put refusing to be affected by them??? 
[21:25] * LM{c} knows Sir Jackal would stay put... 
[21:25] <LM{c}> 'S" 
[21:25] <Jackal{sk> refuse to be effected by them or that is when they start controling your life 
[21:25] <Balg59> flops in corner to watch 
[21:25] * cal{TW} nods 
[21:25] <cal{TW}> i know for my self...alone...i would move...with my Master i would stay 
[21:26] <LM{c}> But there is a difference between those who are public and those that are not 
[21:26] <Jackal{sk> that is between you and your master 
[21:26] <_mizu_> some do not have that choice cal 
[21:26] * LM{c} goes to the stereo to turn up "Nothing Else Matters" 
[21:27] <Jackal{sk> such as myself right now but I am not allowing other to control my life 
[21:27] <_mizu_> me neither Sir 
[21:27] <cal{TW}> maybe i wasnt clear.... if i was alone with no Master...i wouldnt becomfortable staying ina communiity wher ei was black listed...if I had a Master...then I would stay wherever  he was 
[21:27] <Jackal{sk> I have to live where I am at  
[21:27] <LM{c}> For example...I am as out as I can be...but anymore out and My children can be taken away for participating in an alternative lifestlye 
[21:27] <ravenshad> Do you think that this move to set "community rules' is being done as a way of making BDSM more palatable to society? 
[21:27] <LM{c}> that is the local police for you.. 
[21:28] <_mizu_> yes it is raven, whuch is bad 
[21:28] <Jackal{sk> cal I understand 
[21:28] <LMontagne> Good evening. 
[21:28] <LM{c}> but I don't agree with SSC 
[21:28] <cal{TW}> LM ma'am  i face the same thing from my ex husband if i profess my bisexuality... 
[21:28] <Bugs42`> yes, it is, BDSM has become a fad and some are trying to make it appear "nicer" for the public at large 
[21:29] <LM{c}> cal I know what you mena... 
[21:29] <cal{TW}> he would jsut die if he knew i was also a sub 
[21:29] <ravenshad> We all know that abuse does exist, not just in vanilla relationsihps, but in BDSM as well..honestly, what can we do about it? should we do anything ? 
[21:29] * cal{TW} is an ex mormon...exhusband is mormon...the church reaches far and wide 
[21:29] <LM{c}> he knows both about me  (my ex)  and he could take my oldest...if he really trued.. 
[21:29] * LMontagne nods to mizu 
[21:30] <_mizu_> euu that is bad cal 
[21:30] <LMontagne> My apologies for being late.  I understand the topic to be Community Rules tonight? 
[21:30] <LM{c}> educate...'sigh'  although I wish I could do more... 
[21:30] <ravenshad> yes it is LMontagne..no problem on being late.. 
[21:30] <Jackal{sk> cal what goes on behind close doors dosen't matter except to u and your partner 
[21:30] <cal{TW}> so i have a real understanding and strong opinion on "community" rules 
[21:30] <LM{c}> but it does matter... 
[21:30] * Mltdwn scrolls back 
[21:31] <ravenshad> the question currently on the table is: 
[21:31] <LM{c}> esp if Social services find out. 
[21:31] * ravenshad pastes 
[21:31] <LM{c}> 'S" 
[21:31] <ravenshad> [21:29] <ravenshad> We all know that abuse does exist, not just in vanilla relationsihps, but in BDSM as well..honestly, what can we do about it? should we do anything ? 
[21:31] <LMontagne> Good question.  
[21:31] <cal{TW}> i agree Jackal Sir...my ex doesnt agree and feels it his his place to decide tat for me..and being in the church he is in...he could easily get a mormon judge and never allow me to see my kids 
[21:31] <LMontagne> Define abuse 
[21:31] <LM{c}> I am watching my Ex abuse his current girlfreind I WISH I could harm him... 
[21:32] <_mizu_> as it stands ravenwe are in a blind spot in the law 
[21:32] <LM{c}> abuse...twisting someone's mind to think they don't deserve any better.. 
[21:32] <ravenshad> OK..but here is the crux of abuse in BDSM relationships, what is abuse to you, may not be abuse to them... 
[21:32] * LMontagne is also known as gaijin on pasts 
[21:32] <cal{TW}> so my life remains private and very protected 
[21:32] <Mltdwn> when it comes to abuse/....there are legal options... 
[21:32] <Jackal{sk> I wish I could give u a solution but to be yourself, but the kids are the most important 
[21:32] <LM{c}> what m ex did is nothing Milord doesn't have my consent to do now... 
[21:32] <Mltdwn> as long as your are sure iot is abuse... 
[21:33] <ravenshad> Jackal, BDSM can be done safeful with kids in the house.. 
[21:33] <fbryan> abuse - not respecting the other party 
[21:33] <Mltdwn> lack of consent. 
[21:33] <LM{c}> it is...he has cut her off from everyone..and everything...and is bleeding her...of money...selfesteem etc...he hasn't even hit her yet...but he will 
[21:33] <ravenshad> humiliation isn't exactly respectful..so is it abuse? 
[21:33] <Mltdwn> as defined in the crim code. 
[21:33] <ravenshad> That fits abuse LM.. 
[21:33] <LM{c}> 'S'  
[21:34] <Mltdwn> Not if consented to. 
[21:34] <cal{TW}> but in soem relatinsshipps raven some ppl thrive on humiliation 
[21:34] <cal{TW}> i dont personally but soem do 
[21:34] <ravenshad> That's what I was saying cal.. 
[21:34] <LM{c}> But id they concent... 
[21:34] <Soulhuntr> I think it is silly to try and have one single definition of abuse. 
[21:34] <fbryan> it would be if the person creating the humuliation doesn't do it in such a way that respects a person 
[21:34] <ravenshad> so one can't use "respect" as a means of setting a rule on what is abusive and what is not.. 
[21:34] <LM{c}> I don't like humiliation...and I don 
[21:34] <LM{c}> t do it... 
[21:34] <Jackal{sk> I agree raven that it can be done in the house with kids but one must be carefull of how things are done 
[21:34] <LM{c}> whoooops 
[21:34] <Soulhuntr> And further... I dont think that lacking 'respect' for someone is the same as abusing them. 
[21:35] <ravenshad> thank you Soulhuntr 
[21:35] * ravenshad agress with that 
[21:35] <Soulhuntr> Where was it written that everyone gets to walk around in a cloud of respect? 
[21:35] <LM{c}> agreed 
[21:35] <LM{c}> no where 
[21:35] <fbryan> true...i'll step back and agree with that too Soulhuntr 
[21:35] <ravenshad> no where that I know of.. 
[21:35] <Mltdwn> :) 
[21:35] <Jackal{sk> you have to respect yourself before respecting others 
[21:35] <ravenshad> ok everyone..this is a heated topic..fast discussion..lets all take a few deep breaths and break for a moment.. 
[21:36] <Soulhuntr> So I don;t have to respect someone, or have their best interests at heart, or even help the 'grow' as a person... and I am still not abusing them. 
[21:36] * LM{c} stretches 
[21:36] <Soulhuntr> <- relaxes :) 
[21:36] <cal{TW}> Jackal Sir my children live with my ex...they live with abuse and have seen his abuse of mee....if my life style preferences were known by my ex...because he is a control freak and mean...he would do whatever to make it impossible for me to see them...that is abuse..intentionally doibg things to destroy mental health 
[21:36] <LMontagne> Could it be said that until someone requests assistance we have no right, either as vanilla or as bdsm to become involved? 
[21:36] <cal{TW}> yes unfortunately LMontagne 
[21:37] <Soulhuntr> LM - no./. I dont agree with that. 
[21:37] <LMontagne> Why unfortunately? 
[21:37] <ravenshad> That I can agree with LMontagne..except for one thing, those being abused don't always ask for help..but until they do..there is NOTHING we can do about it.. 
[21:37] <Bugs42`> I would agree with that LMontagne 
[21:37] <Jackal{sk> I understand and I am still learning about this 
[21:37] <Soulhuntr> But I think we have to recognise our judgments of abuse as what they are.... 
[21:37] <LM{c}> ? 
[21:37] <Jackal{sk> I am sorry if I insulted anyone 
[21:37] <Tiger6> Hi raven!!! 
[21:37] <Soulhuntr> personal judgments made on the basis of thousands of subtle cues. And we MAY be wrong. 
[21:37] * _mizu_ bow's to Tiger6 "greeting's" 
[21:37] <ravenshad> true Soulhuntr... 
[21:37] <LM{c}> Don't aggre with? 
[21:37] <Mltdwn> yes there is raven... 
[21:38] <Mltdwn> those being abused in most cases wish someone would help. 
[21:38] <LM{c}> really...that's where I lost ther thread... 
[21:38] <cal{TW}> unforunate because i have witnessed in vanilla relationships abuse...if the person is not ready to leave yo cant help...but be there when they are ready..its unfortunate because you have to watch soemone hurt 
[21:38] <ravenshad> exactly cal.. 
[21:38] <Jackal{sk> i agree 
[21:38] <ravenshad> and in BDSM..what one may consider abusive for themselves..may not be abusive for the person involved.. 
[21:39] <ravenshad> heck, general population says whipping someone is abuse..I personally love it..:) 
[21:39] <LMontagne> VEry well put raven 
[21:39] <Mltdwn> exactly 
[21:39] <cal{TW}> i agree raven..then in BDSM you really cant deide with out the person tellingyou they need help 
[21:39] <ravenshad> so, should any one group or person be able to set community standards/rules on what is or is not allowed in a BDSM relationship? 
[21:39] <ravenshad> exactly cal :) 
[21:39] <cal{TW}> no!! 
[21:39] <Soulhuntr> I dont think I agree that even someone saying they are being abused is always grounds to believe it. 
[21:39] <fbryan> No 
[21:39] <Mltdwn> no 
[21:40] <Soulhuntr> So I dont know if I would take action even if asked. 
[21:40] <Soulhuntr> Other than to offer to help them walk away. 
[21:40] * ravenshad hands subdaner a cup of General Foods International Coffee..chocolate.. :) 
[21:40] <LMontagne> No.  But if you are a member of a bdsm group, and participate in their functions, you should follow their rules while participating 
[21:40] <Mltdwn> Not at all...other than the rule of copnsent. 
[21:40] <Mltdwn> consent 
[21:40] <LM{c}> I don't belive....I know...from past experience with the perosn... 
[21:40] <Soulhuntr> I agree LM... when I accept someones rules, I follow them while I am there. 
[21:40] <ravenshad> I agree about following the rules of a function while participating in it.. 
[21:40] <cal{TW}> i agree with that also raven.. 
[21:41] <ravenshad> but I'm speaking of the movements made recently to set rules on BdSM in general.. 
[21:41] <Jackal{sk> I agree to raven 
[21:41] <ravenshad> like that list of submissive's rights I mentioned earlier.. 
[21:41] <LMontagne> I belong to two different bdsm groups with very different rules.  While I am at their functions, I very scrupulously follow their rules. 
[21:41] <cal{TW}> but for a group of ppl to decide what goeson in each individual home and relationship  NO...that is between the partners 
[21:41] <LM{c}> 'S' 
[21:41] <ravenshad> would you follow their rules in your own home? 
[21:41] <LMontagne> If I don't like their rules, I can always leave. 
[21:41] <Soulhuntr> Well, obviously any idea of setting rules for all of BDSM is silly. 
[21:41] <LMontagne> No, in my own home is my business. 
[21:41] <Soulhuntr> It woudl assume so many things that don;t make any sense. 
[21:41] * LM{c} sits back and watches... 
[21:41] <Tiger6> I agree with Soulhuntr, setting rules for all is not good. 
[21:42] <ravenshad> I agree Soulhuntr 
[21:42] <LMontagne> Agreed, Soulhuntr 
[21:42] <ravenshad> what the topic tonight is about is someone else setting the rules for you to live your relationships by...they term them "Community Rules" 
[21:42] <Bugs42`> It does not stop some from trying Soulhuntr 
[21:42] <LMontagne> LOL.  There are always rules of community. 
[21:43] <cal{TW}> i would be fearful of rules made by soemone who i know or trust.....BDSM is based so much on trust... I trust Master...but soemone far away who doesnt know me??? NOWAY 
[21:43] <Jackal{sk> i agree cal 
[21:43] <ravenshad> ok..I have to ask this..if so many people are against such rules being made..why are they being made?? 
[21:43] <cal{TW}> because ppl who disagreeare not speaking out 
[21:43] <cal{TW}> or not aware it is happening 
[21:43] <Tiger6> Because there are always people who like to make rules raven. 
[21:43] <LMontagne> Hmmm, what rules could everyone in here agree on for a bdsm community? 
[21:44] <LMontagne> i.e.  Murder is forbidden? 
[21:44] <LMontagne> Chopping off of limbs is forbidden? 
[21:44] <LM{c}> but what about those who m\know very little....seeing rules from those who know more  (playing devils advocate) 
[21:44] <LMontagne> Sex with children is forbidden? 
[21:44] <Jackal{sk> they like to make them to break them like getting high 
[21:44] <LM{c}> moral limits... 
[21:44] <LMontagne> define moral 
[21:44] <ravenshad> I can agree with those things which are stated.. 
[21:44] <ravenshad> but for me, those are "morals" 
[21:44] <Bugs42`> as far as BDSM rules, I would say none... anything aggregious would be handled by the law 
[21:45] <LM{c}> children...animals...those who can not comnsent 
[21:45] * ravenshad gets her dictionary..can't ever remember what that word means..<sigh> darn bird brain 
[21:45] <ravenshad> I wouldn't include animals LM.. 
[21:45] <LMontagne> egregious? 
[21:45] <Jackal{sk> morals are standards you set 
[21:45] <LM{c}> I would... 
[21:45] <cal{TW}> but hen you have ppl who get off on having sexwith dead ppl....for most of society that is not acceptable....whomakes the rules???? 
[21:45] <LMontagne> Ah, but are we speaking of our own standards or some nebulous community's standards? 
[21:45] <LM{c}> if you can't consent then you can play in our house...;) 
[21:45] <Bugs42`> egregeious, extreme, outrageous...... murder, pedophilia,  
[21:45] <LM{c}> our own..."S'  I know... 
[21:45] <Tiger6> In a BDSM setting I think it is up to the individuals to make their own rules.  anything else is an invasion of privacy 
[21:45] <ravenshad> thanks Bugs 
[21:46] <Bugs42`> I agree, individual and PERSONAL rules, no others 
[21:46] <LMontagne> What about those things that will involve the outside community? 
[21:46] <Bugs42`> such as LMontagne? 
[21:46] <Jackal{sk> give and example montagne 
[21:46] <cal{TW}> I agree Bugs Sir 
[21:47] <Tiger6> If you mean like flashing, you have to consider the consequesnce of the outside world, that is not private but public and you take your risks. 
[21:47] <cal{TW}> lol 
[21:47] <LMontagne> I think if what we do will involve members of a community, such as Medical personnel, law enforcement, firemen, etc. then we have to abide by their rules as they are in effect. 
[21:47] <LMontagne> Thank you Tiger6 
[21:47] <cal{TW}> then we cant do have the stuff that occurs 
[21:47] <cal{TW}> have=half 
[21:47] <ravenshad> So would walking your sub through a mall on a leash be something that the community should say is wrong? 
[21:48] <cal{TW}> police say its all illegal medical say its bad for us... 
[21:48] * ravenshad has a feeling she is going to regret typing that 
[21:48] <LMontagne> As long as you're not harming anyone else, then it is not their business and there is no law about walking through a mall with a leash. *G* 
[21:48] <Bugs42`> raven, in that case they can say what they want, it is public but not illegal 
[21:48] <cal{TW}> rofl LMintagne 
[21:48] <Jackal{sk> noot if the sub gives permission how can one be charged  
[21:48] <LM{c}> but what about the children that are exposed to that? 
[21:48] * ravenshad giggles 
[21:48] <ravenshad> disturbing the peace Jackal 
[21:48] <LMontagne> Hey, my mother used a harness and leash on all her kids. 
[21:48] * LM{c} always think of the kids 
[21:49] <ravenshad> well, interesting since many parents leash their kids.. 
[21:49] <ravenshad> GMTA LMontagne 
[21:49] <cal{TW}> rofl raven 
[21:49] <cal{TW}> i did!!! 
[21:49] <LM{c}> I don't...'sigh 
[21:49] <LMontagne> GMTA? 
[21:49] <ravenshad> I did with kmy daughter..if I didn't she probably would have been smushed by a truck.. 
[21:49] <ravenshad> great minds think alike 
[21:49] <Tiger6> Children are another story.  One has always got to be careful of that.  distrubing the peace can be achrged in the cse of walking the sub through the mall. 
[21:49] <Jackal{sk> your right raven again I forgot about the children 
[21:49] <LMontagne> aHH. lol 
[21:49] <ravenshad> well, when you look around a mall, you see many things that children are exposed to.. 
[21:49] <LMontagne> That would be an interesting case to make, disurbing whose peace? 
[21:50] <ravenshad> if a child sees a sub on a leash..can't an answer such as "probably a costume party" or "I don't know" be good enough? 
[21:50] <LMontagne> Claim it as a religious right. LOL 
[21:50] <cal{TW}> so do we keep all children locked away protected from evils as deccided by a few ppl?? 
[21:50] <LM{c}> but do you want to be responsivle for one more thing? 
[21:50] <Tiger6> It would be up to the prosecuter to make the charge stick but a cop can make the charge and arrest. 
[21:50] <LMontagne> I'm not responsible for what other people do. 
[21:50] * LM{c} wouldn't want to isk it. 
[21:50] <ravenshad> I don't see anything harmful in seeing someone on a leash...what makes it harmful is how the parent responds I think.. 
[21:50] <Jackal{sk> how about the pictures of men and women standing in underwear   pictures at the mall 
[21:50] <LMontagne> I'm not responsible for their kids either. 
[21:50] <LMontagne> Wel said Jackak 
[21:51] <LMontagne> Jackal.  Sorry 
[21:51] <LM{c}> what about personal responsibilty ?  village raisng children and all tha? 
[21:51] <ravenshad> For kids, they can accept just about anything with little trouble..but they get their "response" from watching their parents reactions to things.. 
[21:51] <LMontagne> BS to that LM 
[21:51] <cal{TW}> i agree raven!!!!! 
[21:51] <LM{c}> you say that we are not personally responsibile? 
[21:51] <Jackal{sk> Society changes every ten years and there is always someone or group complaing 
[21:51] <LMontagne> I say I am not responsible for smeone else's ids. 
[21:51] <ravenshad> Everyone is responsible for their own actions, yes LM.. 
[21:52] <LMontagne> kids either 
[21:52] <LMontagne> LOL 
[21:52] <LM{c}> (esp that I was arguing for the sake of arguing...) 
[21:52] <cal{TW}> if we are LM ma'am then we need to go resuce all the children everywhere.... 
[21:52] <ravenshad> but how can I be responsible for somoene else's kids? 
[21:52] <ravenshad> ok..we're off topic.. 
[21:52] <LM{c}> 'S' 
[21:52] <ravenshad> deep breaths please people.. 
[21:52] <LM{c}> I am good for that I apologoize raven... 
[21:52] <LMontagne> whoooooooosh 
[21:52] * cal{TW} breahtes 
[21:52] <ravenshad> no problem LM..I'm good for it too.. :) 
[21:52] * ravenshad giggles 
[21:52] <cal{TW}> cant speel god thing i can do it with out spelling 
[21:53] <LMontagne> Community rules huh? *G* 
[21:54] <LMontagne> I have a point here if I may. 
[21:54] * LM{c} listens 
[21:54] <ravenshad> go for it.. :) 
[21:54] <Jackal{sk> listing 
[21:54] <LMontagne> If there is a local bdsm community that has organized itself into a group, then they can enforce whatever rules they desire by ostracizing those who don't follow the rules 
[21:54] <LMontagne> In effect, outlawing them from that community. 
[21:55] <LMontagne> That leaves the "outlaw" free to establish their own community. 
[21:55] <ravenshad> yes it does.. 
[21:55] <LMontagne> Problem solved. *G* 
[21:55] <Jackal{sk> true but how do you do this before letting them enter 
[21:55] <cal{TW}> the question is though... 
[21:55] <Tiger6> That sounds correct to me.  I also believe if you join an organization you follow it's rules. 
[21:55] <ravenshad> not really since these groups are trying to get together and create an accross the board list of rules for everyone in BDSM.. 
[21:55] <LMontagne> So what raven? 
[21:55] <cal{TW}> does the BDSM community the wholeof it have the right to decide for each of us what we can and cant do? 
[21:55] <LMontagne> What will they do if you dojn't follow their rules? 
[21:56] <ravenshad> true..just ignore them, we do that with the legal rules anyway.. LOLOL 
[21:56] <ravenshad> public ridicule..outing..etc 
[21:56] <LMontagne> For rules to be effective, there must be some reward/punishment. 
[21:56] <Tiger6> raven is illegal?  Oh NO! 
[21:56] <ravenshad> very much so Don.. :) 
[21:56] <LMontagne> Excuse me.  For rules to be effective, there must be some way to enforce them. 
[21:56] <Jackal{sk> we all break the law sometime speeding etc 
[21:57] * LMontagne nods at Jackal 
[21:57] <cal{TW}> yes LMontagne my question earlier"who will enforce" the rules? 
[21:57] <LMontagne> Good question then cal 
[21:57] <LMontagne> And how will they enforce them? 
[21:57] <Jackal{sk> yes who enforce and how do we keep them clean and honest 
[21:57] <Tiger6> Rules in a BDSM community have to be enforced by the people themselves.  You can't enforce anything inside the home. 
[21:58] <cal{TW}> right if we agree to across the board rules then me must a gree to eforcement..which will mean invasion of privacy... i belive hitler tried this 
[21:58] <LMontagne> Perhaps I missed the definition of community earlier. 
[22:00] <Jackal{sk> rich people in there communities have there so called rules and middle class to and if these unspoken words arent ffollowed then the are cast to the way side 
[22:06] <ravenshad> I personally, don't think a community rules thing is going to work.. 
[22:06] <Tiger6> What was the topic exactly? 
[22:07] <ravenshad> simply because BDSM is just too diverse to set limits on what is right and what is wrong in every relationship.. 
[22:07] <cal{TW}> i agree raven 
[22:07] <ravenshad> Community Rules, ...that meaning, groups which try to set rules on what makes a BSM relationship and what does not.. 
[22:07] <cinna`> you are working on community rules?? 
[22:07] <cinna`> Damn....I missed it 
[22:07] <ravenshad> with things like lists of "rights" for subs and slaves.. 
[22:07] <ravenshad> yes cinna..:) 
[22:07] <ravenshad> lists of "forbidden" activities.. 
[22:07] <ravenshad> definitions of what is abuse and what is not.. 
[22:08] <Tiger6> OK, a community can make it's own rules, and I see that in certin clubs I have know, however, I have the right to not join that community. 
[22:08] <cal{TW}> thing is though...religious communities have pulled it off for themselves...it doesnt work for all thier members.... 
[22:08] <ravenshad> agreed Tiger..but if that community then publicly decries you as an abusive person because you don't meet their rules, is that a good thing? 
[22:09] <cinna`> I think it is time that the rest of the world acknowledged the existance of alternative communities 
[22:09] <ravenshad> I agree cinna..it is time.. 
[22:09] <cal{TW}> they do...if they can find away to make it benefit them 
[22:10] <Tiger6> Ah, how do they know, I have just not joined thier community openly, what I do with a few close freinds in the back of my hatchback car on the Interstae highway is none of thier business.  
[22:10] <ravenshad> exactly.. 
[22:10] <ravenshad> but what is being pushed now would make it their business.. 
[22:10] <ravenshad> In all honesty, do you think there are any standards which can be set that cover everyone in BDSM? 
[22:10] <cal{TW}> no 
[22:11] <sahara> heck no.... cause everyone is soo different 
[22:11] <cal{TW}> beccause soem ppl enjoy the asphixiastion play..that can lead to death... 
[22:11] <Tiger6> Sure raven, no kids, no permantnet bodily harm, no murder. 
[22:11] <cal{TW}> there is risk in all that is doen 
[22:11] <cal{TW}> ia gree NO KIDS!!! 
[22:11] <ravenshad> I can agree with no kids ..the other two..situational.. 
[22:11] <ravenshad> permanent bodily harm includes..tatoos..peircings..knife play..scarrification... 
[22:12] <cal{TW}> but what determines bodily harm?? 
[22:12] <ravenshad> murder..well..I happen to be one that agrees with mercy killing.. 
[22:12] <cal{TW}> then i cant agree with that 
[22:12] <Tiger6> Murder, situational?  Oh no, Murder is the taking of persons life without thier consent, what situation do we have? 
[22:12] <sahara> right ... the no kids is set... but you can't tell some one they can't do aphysiation... if its consenual 
[22:12] <subdancer> issue alert VY/ya 
[22:12] <cal{TW}> righ sahara 
[22:12] <ravenshad> OK..clarifiying it that way..I agree with no murder then Tiger.. 
[22:12] <cal{TW}> but Tiger.. 
[22:13] <cal{TW}> society would decide that consentual asphixiation play that lead to death as murder 
[22:13] <cal{TW}> the parternes were consentual 
[22:13] <Tiger6> an accident is one thing, murder is something else, however, you would have to deal the legal aspects of that from outside the community. 
[22:13] <Tiger6> Your right cal. 
[22:14] <sahara> what we think is accidental in the bdsm community is murder to vanillas 
[22:14] <ravenshad> OK..so we can say No kids..and No Murder in the first degree (that being, premeditated) 
[22:14] <cal{TW}> and the ppl enforcing the rules in a BDSM community that didnt agreewith certain types of play then would decide differently thn those who like those play sccenes 
[22:14] <Tiger6> No sahara, it can still be gross indifference to human life, a charge in NY. 
[22:15] <sahara> one think i have found in the bdsm group locally is trying to regulate Dom/mes is an impossible task 
[22:15] <cal{TW}> rofl sahara 
[22:15] * ravenshad giggles 
[22:15] <ravenshad> of course..they're dominants.. LOLOL 
[22:15] <cal{TW}> lolol 
[22:15] <sahara> Tiger i only meant.. family and such aren't gonna believe it was accidental 
[22:15] <ravenshad> ok..so that was a bad joke 
[22:15] <Tiger6> How do you regulate individual choice? 
[22:15] <ravenshad> you can't.. 
[22:16] <cal{TW}> sahara society as a whole will not view BDSM accidents as accidents 
[22:16] <Tiger6> Exactly raven, so rules have to be general in nature and specific to individual groups of people. 
[22:16] <sahara> agreed cal{TW} 
[22:17] <ravenshad> I think the only rules that can be set on BDSM as a whole are things like you just mentioned.. 
[22:17] <ravenshad> but..permanent bodily harm has to be clarified.. 
[22:17] <cal{TW}> true 
[22:17] <ravenshad> things like cutting off someone's arm because it will bleed real nice..doesn't sound like BDSM to me.. 
[22:17] <Tiger6> If you try and make them any more specific then you lose some people in the process. 
[22:17] <ravenshad> but is permanent physical harm.. 
[22:17] <cal{TW}> but cant that again be individualized?? 
[22:18] <ravenshad> yes it can be cal.. 
[22:18] <cal{TW}> because for soem slaves there is branding...even romoval of soem body parts and they are consentual inthat 
[22:18] <Tiger6> Does anyone know of any group of people who play with loss of limps? 
[22:18] <ravenshad> What I find interesting about this discussion is, everyone agrees to the same basic "rules" so to speak..they are "unspoken" rules.. 
[22:18] <cal{TW}> removal or mutilation 
[22:18] <ravenshad> I don;'t..but I have heard of it.. 
[22:19] <cal{TW}> in arab countries it is still legal to remove limbs for infractiosn of thier laws.... 
[22:19] <Tiger6> The problem you have is that all the people here play by the same set of unspoken rules it seems. 
[22:20] <Tiger6> Yeah cal, it is, but thats law in thier country not BDSM. 
[22:21] <cal{TW}> yes....and ppl here wish tomake rules"laws" for the BDSMcommunity....do we allow that to happen???  what oif oneof thier rules was if yo performed a certain type of scene they could remove  your hand? 
[22:22] <ravenshad> that might be a bit extreme.. 
[22:22] <cal{TW}> is it really?? 
[22:22] <ravenshad> I think more that what they are trying to do is make BDSM more "agreeable" to society as a whole.. 
[22:22] <cal{TW}> thinka obut it.. 
[22:22] <Tiger6> Those rules have no weight of law.  raven can through me off the list if she wants but it's not going to land me in jail. 
[22:22] <cal{TW}> past history 
[22:22] <cal{TW}> hitler... 
[22:22] <ravenshad> by presenting the rules which show the sub as being in charge.. 
[22:23] <Tiger6> I hate to bring this up, but it's been over 100 years and we still have segrgation problems in this country, what does the BDSM community think is going to happen with theier rules? 
[22:23] <ravenshad> yes cal, but that was a different set of circumstances.. 
[22:23] <ravenshad> honestly, I have no idea Tiger.. 
[22:23] <cal{TW}> eventoday some "communities" religious one in mind at the moment feels perfectly justified in murdering memebers if they dont measure up tothier dtandards 
[22:24] * ravenshad looks at the clock...