Presents:
BDSM Discussion 8
What Is
Slavery?
All Comments Posted Here With Permission Of The Participants
[20:30] *
ravenshad says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions
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[20:31] <ravenshad> The topic tonight is what is your perception of slavery..The best question I can think of to start this off is..
[20:31] <ravenshad> What is slavery to you?
[20:32] <mist> I am not sure to answer that and I thought I had an answeer for everything...LOL
[20:32] <KimiD> looks like you have to start raven :grins:
[20:32] * ravenshad giggles..
[20:33] <Mlt^jaz> I'll start...
[20:33] <Mlt^jaz> :)
[20:33] * mist looks at raven
[20:33] <ravenshad> Ok Mlt and jaz, go for it :)
[20:34] <Mlt^jaz> slavery to Me is what two ppl decide to choose to make thier lifestyle to be..for us...it is a continually growing and enveloping part of our relationshiop that we see as valuable as our togetherness itself,
[20:34] <Mlt^jaz> It is cotinually built upon and growing....
[20:35] <Mlt^jaz> I feel as Master that one must continually build upon what the foundation was set upon...
[20:35] <mist> slavery is what I am....my nature...
[20:35] <Mlt^jaz> and as a slave it is striving to be more than what you ever thought possible....
[20:36] <ravenshad> I don't know, maybe this is too simplistic, but to me, slavery is being owned by another..
[20:36] * mist looks confused
[20:36] <Mlt^jaz> very true mist....not in all cases though.
[20:36] <ravenshad> Wouldn't that hold true for subs as well Mlt?
[20:36] <mist> agreed raven...
[20:36] <Bugs42`> I see slavery as completely giving of oneself in all respects to another, becoming the other persons property
[20:36] <Mlt^jaz> owned perhaps...but still a partnership. IMO
[20:36] <mist> I do think it has to be your nature for you to be a defined slave
[20:36] <ravenshad> agreed mist, it has to be in the person's nature..
[20:36] <KimiD> no partnership to me
[20:36] <mist> not in a partership
[20:37] <KimiD> i have the ability to give him advice but he doesn't have to take it
[20:37] * mist shakes head
[20:37] <ravenshad> I'm sorry, but I can't veiw it as a partnership..
[20:37] <mist> agreed
[20:37] <ravenshad> Agreed Kimi..final decisions are his..
[20:37] <Mlt^jaz> exactly KimiD
[20:37] <Mlt^jaz> why is it not a partnership...
[20:37] <mist> but still knowing he has my best interests at heart whether or not he takes my advice
[20:37] <Bugs42`> now, can it be a partnersip if that is what is agreed to in the beginning?
[20:37] <Mlt^jaz> without one there is no other..?
[20:38] * Corwyn considers the role of responsibility
[20:38] <Mlt^jaz> Certainly.
[20:38] <ravenshad> well, in a partnership, each partner has the right to make decisions independent of each other..as well, each partner has the freedom to say "no"
[20:38] <mist> I serve...but he is always a Master with or without me...
[20:38] <ravenshad> a slave, usualy is not allowed to tell his/her master no
[20:38] <ravenshad> Possibly Bugs..
[20:38] <mist> I am superfluous to the equation
[20:39] <mist> I am a slave with or with out him...
[20:39] <Mlt^jaz> To Me...one is given the gift of their own opinion and verse.
[20:39] <mist> I don't give a gift....
[20:39] <Mlt^jaz> I take waht I chose and decide what will stand.
[20:39] * _mizu_ sit's and think's for a moment
[20:40] <ravenshad> exactly Mlt
[20:40] <KimiD> we were talking about that today..a gift is like giving someone a favor..i'm not doing Daddy a favor by being his submissive
[20:40] <Mlt^jaz> doing a favour is not giving a gift...it is a favour.
[20:41] <KimiD> the two in my mind aren't that far apart
[20:41] <Mlt^jaz> A gift is uncoinditional and precious to cherrish.
[20:41] <KimiD> i understand the differences..but for this discussion it's close enough for me
[20:41] <KimiD> so is a favor..you don't expect anything in return most times for doing a favor
[20:41] <KimiD> or you shouldn't
[20:41] <mist> I don't...
[20:41] <ntalia> a favor certainly can be a gift.
[20:42] * ravenshad ponders
[20:43] <ravenshad> OK..I can see giving somoene complete rights over me as being a "gift" in some people's eyes..
[20:43] <ravenshad> but, is it really a gift when in reality I am only being myself?
[20:43] <ravenshad> It's not something "special" done solely for someone else..it isn't something I can't shut off or ignore...
[20:43] <Mlt^jaz> swinging back to topic...would you consider a slave to have thier own identity and point of view?
[20:43] * ravenshad hopes that makes any sense
[20:43] * mist nodding
[20:43] <ravenshad> yes I would Mlt..
[20:43] <ntalia> i had a choice when i was my master's. but i relinquished that choice.
[20:43] <KimiD> a good and valuable one..yes
[20:44] <Mlt^jaz> true ntalia
[20:44] <ravenshad> just because someone is slave doesn't mean they don't have a choice..
[20:44] <ravenshad> or their own identity..
[20:44] <Mlt^jaz> Very true ravenshad
[20:45] <Mlt^jaz> *whew*...ppl on the same track :)
[20:45] <ravenshad> Does a slave have the right to set limits on the relationship?
[20:45] <cinna`> I hope not, raven
[20:45] <Mlt^jaz> Good question...
[20:46] <mist> I don't think that a slave sets limits... but hopefully whom a slave consents to knows enough about his/her slave that they are compatible
[20:46] <ravenshad> Bugs: no
[20:46] <ravenshad> agreed mist.. :)
[20:46] <Mlt^jaz> they can set them...I have this wonderful way of taking her past them at her own desire and whim. :))
[20:46] <mist> how can a slave set limits?
[20:46] <Mlt^jaz> In thier mind one always does.....
[20:47] <mist> I don't....outside of moral limits...but didn't we agree those were outside the realm of BDDSM entirely?
[20:47] <Mlt^jaz> That is the glory of this lifestyle...
[20:47] <ravenshad> some agreed to that yes mist..
[20:47] <ntalia> my master regarded my " no"s as real limits. but that is because i didn't often use the term with him.
[20:47] <ntalia> he recognized my limits, and taught me to get past them.
[20:48] <Bugs42`> I do not see that a slave can set any limits, I own my slave and the only limits are the ones I set
[20:48] <ravenshad> whether or not limits are allowed seems to be highly dependent upon the people involved in the relationship...
[20:48] <mist> I don't beg well...so when I do beg he knows my mental state....but I wouldn't call that a limit
[20:48] <Mlt^jaz> interesting ntalia.....In our case...the no's are oppsoite...
[20:48] <cinna`> ahhhhhh, talia........I understand
[20:48] <ravenshad> I personally, do not feel I have the right to set limits upon my master..he is aware of what I like and don't like..but the decisions are his
[20:48] <Mlt^jaz> Exactly ravenshad
[20:49] <Bugs42`> what are your limits cinna`?
[20:49] <ravenshad> Wouldn't setting limits on the relationship's activities go against actually being a slave and being owned??
[20:49] <mist> I think it does...
[20:50] <cinna`> I am not sure as yet, Bugs, Sir
[20:50] <Bugs42`> How do you go about setting your limits?
[20:51] <Mlt^jaz> May I give an example of a limit that was challenged inour situation...
[20:51] <ravenshad> sure Mlt :)
[20:51] <ravenshad> but could I ask for you to wait just one moment for cinna's answer? to cut down on confusion?
[20:52] <cinna`> but then I do not submit to someone who does not have my desires in mind
[20:52] <ravnshad> could someone paste please? last I saw as "Roamer sits down to listen"
[20:53] *** ravenshad was kicked by ravnshad (GHOST)
[20:54] <Bugs42`> did you have limits that you already knew of?
[20:54] <Bugs42`> that makes sense
[20:54] <cinna`> no.......I only know things I am not ready for
[20:55] <Bugs42`> personally, I think many could set that as a limit, kind of think time
[20:55] <cinna`> but that is not a limit
[20:55] <cinna`> just a time to think
[20:55] <cinna`> and become accustomed
[20:55] <cinna`> and decide how much His pleasure means to me
[20:56] <tracy> could you explain that cinna?
[20:56] <cinna`> but then He wantws me to be entirely His without any reservations
[20:56] <ravnshad> cinna, sounds more like "discussing possibilities" than telling him outright no
[20:57] <cinna`> so he is careful and deliberate in His dealings with me
[20:57] <Corwyn> cinna..doesn't his pleasure bring you pleasure??
[20:57] <cinna`> Yes........I t does.....Infinite pleasure
[20:57] <cinna`> and He has never asked anything of me aS YET THAT i WAS UNPREPARED TO GIVE
[20:58] <cinna`> THEREFORE......i Have not found a limit
[20:58] <tracy> lucky you
[20:58] <cinna`> I believe that he takes great care in what he asks of me
[20:58] <cinna`> and that He knows when I am ready for the next step
[20:58] <ravnshad> I believe a dominant should take care in what he asks of a submissive or a slave..pushing them too quickly can lead to serious problems..
[20:58] <Corwyn> Bothe master and slave have....responsibilities to each other.
[20:58] <tracy> how can you have growth without pushing?
[20:58] <ntalia> yes cinna, exactly. there is nothing i would not have given to my master or for him. the only personal limit was my life for his pleasure. but i would gladly have traded my life for his had it been possible
[20:58] <cinna`> I aM SO IN thrall
[20:59] <ravnshad> you can't, but there is a difference between pushing and outright forcing tracy..
[20:59] * ntalia nods to Corwyn. both take care of each other, but in different ways..
[20:59] <Corwyn> perhaps I should say obligations
[20:59] * Roamer`` agrees wit hntalia and Corwyn
[21:00] <ravnshad> ok..Mlt, your example?
[21:00] <Mlt^jaz> In our case when we met ...enimas were out of the question....however over time I had a deep feeling inside that this was something that I wanted to explore and sensed that My slave may as well...so I came home with an enima kit...and it was not questined as to why I bought it...yet I knew we had discussed ot as a limit...and yet it was mulled over in her mind and her true ambitions to please and serve Me. It ended up that she
[21:00] <tracy> that's a pretty fine line raven
[21:00] <ejaustin> i have limits, but i am merely a submissive and your discussions seem to focus on slaves
[21:00] <ravnshad> yes..but many things are a fine line tracy.. :)
[21:00] <Mlt^jaz> I hope that makes snese of what I was saying about limitas and opinions.
[21:00] <tracy> true :)
[21:00] <KimiD> what you may think is forcing..could in retrospect be pushing ;)
[21:00] <ravnshad> not all of them ej..
[21:00] <Mlt^jaz> very true raven.
[21:00] <ntalia> my master was my protector and guardian. he supplied me with the essentials of life - money to buy the the food and shelter and clothes that were my necessities. in return, i was his housemaid, and his maiden. i was there to wake him in the morning and never slept before hedid
[21:00] <KimiD> therefore it requires trust
[21:01] <subdancer> trippy
[21:01] <ejaustin> the ones that i have seen... here and on the list <s> but if i were convinced that this were uniformly true, i'd go my way and leave y'all to yours <s>
[21:01] <ravnshad> yes Kimi.. :)
[21:01] <Corwyn> ahhh trust...a fragile thing...and hard to repair once broken
[21:01] <cinna`> I am not a slave
[21:01] <tracy> i agree Kimi you have to trust him to know what is appropriate
[21:01] <Mlt^jaz> My slaves main focus is on the fact that I am looking our for her best interset and protecting every part of her.
[21:01] <ravnshad> Well, most of the talkative people on the list are more into M/s than D/s ej..
[21:01] <cinna`> I am a sub.........but I still have not found a limit
[21:01] <KimiD> but rarely ever really broken..at least i know very very few dom's who've broken their trust
[21:01] <tracy> since we are the ones being pushed it is difficult to be oblective about it
[21:02] <Emile`> so at what point does a sub become a slave?
[21:02] <ravnshad> For me Emile, it was when I realized I felt no need to set any limits and did indeed give myself completely to someone else's rule..
[21:02] <Tatsumi> that's a personal disticntion Emile
[21:02] <KimiD> when your only option to say No is when your walking out the door (for me)
[21:03] <ravnshad> and found that I liked it, preferred it that way, and well..here I am
[21:03] <Mlt^jaz> Exactly raven
[21:03] <Mlt^jaz> that is how we are....
[21:03] <Emile`> so it's complete trust, or faith?
[21:04] <Mlt^jaz> both
[21:04] <ravenshad> for me Emile, both
[21:04] <ejaustin> i think that a sub can have complete trust and faith, too
[21:04] <cinna`> hmmmmm..........my Master.......does not want me to be a doormat
[21:04] <KimiD> thin line for me there
[21:04] <cinna`> he loves me ......the whole me
[21:04] <KimiD> why do you have to be a doormat to accept his decisions?
[21:04] <Mlt^jaz> No Master should.
[21:04] <cinna`> so he takes pride in me what I am doing other things
[21:04] <KimiD> that's the number one scapegoat it seems
[21:04] * ravenshad smiles..cinna would you say I am a doormat?
[21:05] <ravenshad> yes Kimi..it is..
[21:05] <cinna`> and he wants to own me in every way......and He does
[21:05] <Mlt^jaz> exactly cinna
[21:05] <tracy> what is the number 1 scapegoat?
[21:05] <KimiD> the "doormat" theory
[21:05] <ravenshad> saying a slave has to be a doormat tracy
[21:05] <tracy> oh
[21:05] <ejaustin> to imply that slaves must be doormats, tracy
[21:05] <tracy> never seen it
[21:05] <tracy> not once
[21:05] <KimiD> your lucky
[21:05] <tracy> i have seen martyrs
[21:05] <tracy> but they like it that way
[21:05] <cinna`> I could call mysaelf a slave , raven........but I would not call myslef a doormat
[21:05] <ravenshad> cinna, a slave need not be a doormat..
[21:05] <cinna`> nor you... gf
[21:05] <ravenshad> exactly
[21:05] <Roamer``> exactly raven
[21:05] <ravenshad> cinna, I am slave..(yeah took me a while to figure that out) and I am not a doormat
[21:06] <ravenshad> far from it actually
[21:06] <cinna`> they are not the same thing........but some people think they are
[21:06] <ravenshad> yes..too many people think they are the same thing..
[21:06] <ejaustin> there is another common implication that bothers me...
[21:06] <ravenshad> and that is ej?
[21:07] <ejaustin> that implication is that a submissive either has not found the "right" Master or that trust is lacking, else she would be a slave
[21:07] <ravenshad> I agree ej, and I don't like that implication either..
[21:07] <tracy> actually i think there is something to be said for that
[21:07] <tracy> horrible aren't I ::smile
[21:07] <Mlt^jaz> to go along with the doormat thought....not all slaves are house maids...not that a slave who is one is wroing...just expanding on the point...it is not a necessary component to all Master/slave relationships.
[21:07] <ravenshad> Though i have to say that I haven't seen that one as much as I have seen the doormat one for both subs and slaves..
[21:07] <tracy> and i don't think i am a slave btw::grin
[21:07] <KimiD> if what you are looking for is to BE a slave..then that theory hold true
[21:07] <ejaustin> better to say it outright than to hint at it constantly, tracy
[21:07] <ejaustin> i can deal with straightforward disagreement <s>
[21:08] <tracy> if slave is submissive with absolute trust then isn't it just a matter of finding the right person to give that trust to?
[21:08] <cinna`> LOL.........I am a VERY Domme person in my work life.......however.......when I come home
[21:08] <Corwyn> slave/servant can be a protector like the knight of a king ( I know a hyperbole)
[21:08] <ravenshad> true Mlt..I believe someone said something about training for different vocations..specialty slaves I guess you could call them..and housework is not one that every slave has to be..
[21:08] <cinna`> I am entirley submissive
[21:08] <ejaustin> raven, it could be that we are each more sensitive to the implications that do not fit our own personal experience
[21:08] <ravenshad> probably so ej..
[21:08] <ejaustin> i don't think so, tracy
[21:08] <cinna`> I have a need to be dominated......and he is the stronger for the strength in me
[21:09] <ejaustin> i think there is more to being a slave than merely being a sub with complete trust
[21:09] <Mlt^jaz> hense the point I brought up a the beginning...it is what yoiu make it to be...
[21:09] <tracy> what more?
[21:09] * ejaustin considers
[21:09] <KimiD> i'd like to know to (just curious what you think> :)
[21:09] <ejaustin> let me run and get a drink and think how to state it clearly
[21:09] <ravenshad> I can say how being slave is different for me than being sub
[21:09] <tracy> k ::smile
[21:09] <Mlt^jaz> go for it...
[21:09] <Mlt^jaz> :)
[21:10] <Corwyn> strength and service are not contradictory
[21:10] <KimiD> see..now i can't raven
[21:10] <Roamer``> how so raven ?
[21:10] <ravenshad> ok..this may ramble..so have patience please.. :)
[21:10] <ravenshad> no they are not contradictory Corwyn, in fact, in my opinion they go together
[21:10] * Roamer`` engages "patience" mode
[21:10] <ejaustin> patience = on
[21:10] * ravenshad thinks for a moment for proper words..
[21:11] <Tatsumi> slave and sub are different for me too
[21:11] <ravenshad> When I first began learning the terminology of BDSM..I adopted many things that I did not agree to inside myself, because I felt they were the "right" way to do things..
[21:11] <ravenshad> forgot the fact I hadn't done any of those in the 13 years (at that point) I had been phsycially active with S/m and B/d..
[21:11] <ravenshad> anyway..
[21:11] <ejaustin> i think that slaves give responsibility to their owners in a wider range of areas than subs do
[21:11] <ravenshad> I entered into a relationship where there was indeed a power exchange present..
[21:12] <ravenshad> real life relationship...24/7 type thing.. :)
[21:12] * ejaustin listens
[21:12] <ravenshad> I was submissive then..partly because I was refusing to see many things inside myself out of fear of losing who I am and being the proverbial doormat..
[21:12] <ravenshad> as a sub, I did not feel the need to please as consistently as I do now..
[21:12] <ravenshad> as a sub, I did not hesitate to say "no" under certain conditions..
[21:13] <ravenshad> the intensity of my feelings was not as great as it is now..
[21:13] <ravenshad> for me, it differs on the emotional and psychological level
[21:14] * cinna` huggles raven
[21:14] <ejaustin> it seems to me that slaves become focussed on developing their identities as complements to their Master....
[21:14] <Mlt^jaz> very wise ravenshad
[21:14] <ravenshad> even when angry, (and I mean PISSED) I still feel the need to please..and will do things strictly to please master...
[21:15] <Tatsumi> it's not quite that way for me, but i dont think i could explain it well. sorry
[21:15] <ravenshad> the depth of the emotions are different..
[21:15] <ejaustin> subs' identities include their submission, but may include some things without reference to Master
[21:15] * ravenshad huggles cinna
[21:15] * Corwyn smiles, looks toward fire
[21:15] <ravenshad> thanks Mlt..but I lost my train of thought..
[21:15] <Mlt^jaz> May I back track to a quote of your then>?
[21:15] <ejaustin> maybe that's what i see as being a crucial difference
[21:15] <ravenshad> go ahead Mlt.. :)
[21:16] <ravenshad> there is that ej, but there are things I do which are outside Master's rule by his choice..
[21:16] <Mlt^jaz> <ravenshad> as a sub, I did not feel the need to please as
[21:16] <Mlt^jaz> consistently as I do now..
[21:16] <Mlt^jaz> <ravenshad> the intensity of my feelings was not as great as it is
[21:16] <Mlt^jaz> now..
[21:17] <Mlt^jaz> those to Me are the main difference between submission and slavery...
[21:18] <ejaustin> again, Mlt, it sounds like a sub merely hasn't found the right Master or doesn't feel as strongly about it
[21:18] <Mlt^jaz> For us there is a deeper growth and connection that was not there prior to our Master/slave relationship
[21:18] <Roamer``> its the psychological aspect
[21:18] <ravenshad> I can see how it sounds that way ej, but that isn't what is being meant..
[21:18] <ravenshad> yes Mlt :)
[21:18] <ejaustin> then i will wait for clarification <s>
[21:18] <Mlt^jaz> ejustin there is nothing wrong with being simply a submissive...
[21:18] <ravenshad> ej, we are defining slavery...which is indeed different than a submissive..
[21:18] <Mlt^jaz> it is two different lifestyles.
[21:19] <ejaustin> evidently, Mlt, i agree with that
[21:19] <ravenshad> but, there are many similarities as well ej..
[21:19] <cheryl{RL> Does self-confidence play into the difference?
[21:19] * cinna` thinks may be she should have looked at the topic
[21:19] <ejaustin> agreed... and y'all will make me vanilla yet... lol
[21:19] <ravenshad> I doubt that ej..LOL
[21:19] <ravenshad> in what way cheryl?
[21:19] <Mlt^jaz> the same as a masochist is different from a submissive is different from a slave.
[21:20] <Tatsumi> i dont think so cheryl
[21:20] <ravenshad> I think a sub or slave should have self condfidence...but not be a snob..
[21:20] <ravenshad> I see that as a similarity..
[21:20] <Tatsumi> i think you have to have it for either slave or sub
[21:20] <cheryl{RL> Does a sub maybe not have as much confidence as a slave?
[21:20] <Mlt^jaz> it's jaz's confidence in herself that has made her worthy as a slave....
[21:20] * RobLMntgn agrees with Tatsumi
[21:20] * ravenshad giggles GMTA Tats
[21:20] <ravenshad> Not in my opinion cheryl..
[21:20] <ravenshad> in some ways, being slave makes a person more vulnerable..
[21:20] <ejaustin> maybe i have less confidence in the world
[21:21] <ravenshad> One can not submit to another unless they know what it is they are capable of submitting..
[21:21] <ejaustin> i don't agree with *that* at all, raven, if you mean within the relationship
[21:21] <ejaustin> perhaps i should go
[21:21] <cheryl{RL> does confidence make the difference in being/not being a doormat?
[21:21] <ravenshad> you don't have to go ej..
[21:22] <ravenshad> I think so cheryl..
[21:22] <ejaustin> i don't feel heard, raven <shrug>
[21:22] <ravenshad> I'm trying ej..
[21:22] <Tatsumi> ej, i hear you:)
[21:22] <ejaustin> yes, but... yes, but... is what i'm hearing mostly
[21:23] <ejaustin> i'm trying to listen, too, and not be defensive
[21:23] <RobLMntgn> This may have been covered before I entered.... But would one definition of the difference be
[21:23] <ravenshad> ok..things have been scrolling real fast..and that gets confusing..
[21:24] <ravenshad> I am sorry if you feel unheard ej..
[21:24] <ravenshad> please, speak your mind..
[21:24] <RobLMntgn> That a submissive has set limits and that a slave has entered slavehood with the knowledge that there are no limits?
[21:24] <Tatsumi> maybe Rob, but i know 2 subs that have no limits
[21:24] <RobLMntgn> And that that their primary joy comes in service.
[21:25] <RobLMntgn> Hmmm. I have a problem with no limits. I have my own. But to each his own.
[21:25] <Tatsumi> they dont consider themselves slaves, nor do thier doms
[21:25] <ravenshad> primary joy being serving, can be just as strong for a sub as a slave..
[21:25] <ravenshad> ok..pause..pause..
[21:25] <ravenshad> ej..go ahead..
[21:25] <Tatsumi> i also know some subs who are not inot service at all
[21:25] <Tatsumi> i agree raven:)
[21:25] <ejaustin> i don't know what else to say, raven
[21:25] <RobLMntgn> Well, how about . . . A submissie is your charge. A slave is your property.
[21:25] <ejaustin> my feelings are intense
[21:26] <ejaustin> i do trust when in a relationship
[21:26] <Corwyn> ahh, a good point
[21:26] * ravenshad listens to ej..
[21:26] <ejaustin> i am not now and never will be a slave
[21:26] <Mlt^jaz> Hmmm...well stated RobLMntgn
[21:26] * Roamer`` listens to ej also
[21:26] <ejaustin> i would never consent to allow someone to give me permanently to another, for instance
[21:26] <Tatsumi> that could be very true Rob
[21:26] <ejaustin> never
[21:26] <ravenshad> ok..ej, what do you consider to be a slave?
[21:26] * RobLMntgn thanks you Mlt
[21:26] <Mlt^jaz> That's certainly ok ej...we are not here to change minds...just expand them :)
[21:26] <Tatsumi> but that doesn't say what makes one sub vs slave
[21:27] <Tatsumi> exactly Mlt
[21:27] <ravenshad> thank you Mlt..well said :)
[21:27] <RobLMntgn> Perhaps it's the signing over of all personal rights and freedoms that makes one a slave.
[21:27] <ejaustin> my understanding is that a slave becomes property, just as my dog is my property
[21:27] <ejaustin> he is still an individual and different from other dogs
[21:27] <ejaustin> he's spunky and some days he drives me nuts
[21:27] <Tatsumi> maybe, but i know a sub who has done that too Rob
[21:28] <RobLMntgn> Hopefully of more value than your dog though ej
[21:28] <ravenshad> true...but most don't see a slave as expendible property...least not as easily as one may view a dog as expendible..
[21:28] <ejaustin> not dog lovers, are y'all? lol
[21:28] <Roamer``> LOL ej
[21:28] * RobLMntgn has 4.
[21:28] * ravenshad has 3 dogs..one pregnant one..and loves them ...
[21:28] <ejaustin> of course, more valued than a dog, but the model is similar
[21:28] * Alstr-afk has seen people advertising "real slaves for sale"... "for real, no joke, e-mail for further information to purchasing her".
[21:28] <ravenshad> yes..it is similar ej, you are correct..
[21:28] <ejaustin> if i give my dog to someone else for whatever reason, he *goes*
[21:29] <ejaustin> he eats what i give him
[21:29] <ejaustin> i teach him how to *not* drive me nuts
[21:29] <ejaustin> and i try to develop his strengths and minimize his weaknesses as a dog
[21:29] <Tatsumi> true enoguh ej
[21:29] <ejaustin> i do *not* see being a slave as
[21:29] <ejaustin> being a doormat
[21:30] <ejaustin> being seen as valueless
[21:30] <ejaustin> becoming some kind of robot
[21:30] <Tatsumi> right ej
[21:30] <ravenshad> ej..may I ask you a quick question?
[21:30] <Tatsumi> to continue with the pet analogy...
[21:30] <ejaustin> being a mindless, slavering idiot
[21:30] <ejaustin> i *do* understand that
[21:30] <Tatsumi> if your dog doesn't like the way he is being treated he will leave or attack you
[21:30] <ejaustin> of course, raven
[21:30] * RobLMntgn doesn't consider slaves to be mindless slavering idiots.
[21:30] <KimiD> :claps:
[21:30] <Tatsumi> a doormat would do niether
[21:31] <ravenshad> agreed Tats
[21:31] <ejaustin> not necessarily, Tatsumi
[21:31] <Tatsumi> you dont think so ej?
[21:31] <ejaustin> with a proper foundation, a dog will accept treatment of almost any kind
[21:31] <ravenshad> You easily state your veiws on a sub and slave..stating everything that you know slaves are *not*..
[21:31] <ejaustin> if i change my treatment of him abruptly, he most certainly would
[21:31] <ravenshad> is the frustration/problem (please pick a word I can't find one) in the word "property"?
[21:32] <ejaustin> no, i don't object to that, raven
[21:32] <Tatsumi> so will an abused person, but we are talking about healthy relationships
[21:32] <Tatsumi> with people and with pets:)
[21:32] <ejaustin> if my dog jumps the fence and runs the neighborhood (as he does on occasion)
[21:32] <ravenshad> a slave, will leave a relationship if they truly felt they had to..
[21:33] <ejaustin> and he bites someone or causes some other kind of havoc
[21:33] <ejaustin> who is responsible?
[21:33] <ravenshad> the owner..
[21:33] <Mlt^jaz> Yes
[21:33] <ejaustin> i believe that *i* am
[21:33] <Tatsumi> a good slave would yes:)
[21:33] <Tatsumi> good = heathly, worth value
[21:33] <ejaustin> i would never give someone else that level of responsibility for *my* actions
[21:33] <ravenshad> Ahhhh..ok ..I see.. :)
[21:33] <RobLMntgn> But because you wouldn't ej, doesn't make it wrong for someone else.
[21:34] <Tatsumi> the dog is responsible for his own actions to his owner but the owner is responsible to the outside world
[21:34] <Mlt^jaz> Yes Tatsumi
[21:34] <ejaustin> i'm not trying to make coverts either, Rob... just trying to explain why i don't think a sub is merely a slave who is not in the right relationship
[21:34] <ravenshad> ej, I am responsible for my actions and held accountable for them..though, in public, my actions reflect upon my master and he is the one that can and will be held responsible in addition to me..
[21:34] <Tatsumi> i agree ej
[21:34] <Roamer``> definitely ej
[21:34] <RobLMntgn> Well said raven
[21:35] <ravenshad> if I were to go to a play party, and ohhhh smack people around..people would come down on me *and* my master..
[21:35] <Tatsumi> i think slavery can be inspired but it isn't always a matter of meeting that 'right' person
[21:35] * Corwyn considers military systems and the relationships between commanders and their men
[21:35] <RobLMntgn> And I agree a sub is not merely a slave who is not in the right relationship
[21:35] <Tatsumi> yes raven
[21:35] <Tatsumi> exactly what i meant
[21:35] <ravenshad> I agree that a sub is not just a slave who is not in the right relationship either..
[21:35] <ravenshad> everyone who is submissive..is submissive to a different level..
[21:35] <Tatsumi> very similar Corwyn
[21:35] <ravenshad> we have those who are only submissive during sexual encounters..but they are submissive..
[21:35] <Tatsumi> yes raven
[21:36] <Roamer``> exactly raven (after all, we are all different)
[21:36] <ravenshad> then we have those, who are submissive only within certain pre-arranged limitations on the relationship..
[21:36] <ravenshad> they are stil submissive..
[21:36] <RobLMntgn> LOL. Now you're getting into bottoms vs submissives raven.
[21:36] <ejaustin> i would term them "bottoms" rather than submissives, raven
[21:36] <ejaustin> lol, Rob...
[21:36] <ravenshad> then there are submissives with little to no limits set on the relationships..
[21:36] <ravenshad> they are still submissive..
[21:36] <ejaustin> different minds sometimes think alike, too, Sir <s>
[21:36] <Corwyn> And different military systems have different codes of conduct between the ranks
[21:36] <RobLMntgn> LOL. It seems so.
[21:36] <ravenshad> then there are submisisves (termed slave by the definition of the relationshp) who set no limits on the relationship and consider themselves owned..
[21:37] <ravenshad> yes..the first is a bottom to me as well..but they still have some level of submission
[21:37] <ravenshad> in them..
[21:37] <RobLMntgn> Ahh, the officer corps has a much higher standard code of conduct than the enlisted, Corwyn
[21:37] <ejaustin> i was in the military, Corwyn, and it bears little relationship to *any* of my other relationships... lol
[21:37] <ejaustin> not higher, Rob, merely different
[21:37] <ravenshad> my point is, there are different levels to this for everyone..it's finding what works for you and your partner that counts.. :)
[21:37] <Mlt^jaz> As was I
[21:37] * RobLMntgn was a Marine for 22 years and there was a very different code.
[21:37] <Corwyn> Yes, but it is still a relationship governed by rules
[21:37] <RobLMntgn> All relationships have some rules, stated or unstated.
[21:37] <ejaustin> all relationships are governed by rules
[21:38] <Corwyn> and rules vary between countries
[21:38] <ejaustin> and there are the official rules and the unofficial rules, which are sometimes contradictory
[21:38] <Corwyn> Likewise , definitions of submissives, slaves, etc. are variable
[21:38] <ravenshad> yes ej..contradictory fits BDSM.. :)
[21:38] <ejaustin> the unofficial rules generally win <s>
[21:38] <Tatsumi> lol ej, but the similiarites between the miltiary and some BDSM is remarkable:)
[21:38] * RobLMntgn agrees with Corwyn
[21:39] <ravenshad> well said Corywn :)
[21:39] <Corwyn> I apologize if the analogy was a bit stretched
[21:39] <ejaustin> paradoxical, not contradictory, rave... big difference, imnsho
[21:39] <RobLMntgn> Of course Tatsumi. Both can be very structured within their own community.
[21:39] <Mlt^jaz> Exactly raven...jaz just stated the utmost gift... "all that I know is that i am your slave, and that in serving you and making you happy it makes me happy...and brings me my own pleasure.."
[21:39] <ejaustin> Tatsumi, the military analogy would work better with a feudal model in mind
[21:39] <RobLMntgn> And certain things that are acceptable within that community are not acceptable to the larger community surrounding them.
[21:39] <Corwyn> True Rob
[21:40] <RobLMntgn> And vice versa
[21:40] <Tatsumi> well, we have a feudal model of asorts here:) so i think it does kinda fit)
[21:41] <Tatsumi> :)
[21:41] <ravenshad> Does anyone see slavery as a non-possibility? why?
[21:41] <ejaustin> fuedal armies where bound by common interests and honor... modern armies don't seem to have that to as great an extent
[21:41] <Mlt^jaz> define non-possibility..?
[21:41] <Tatsumi> in legal terms? it's not, but we rarely bother ourselves with what's legal
[21:41] * RobLMntgn disagrees stongly with ej on that one but it's for a different topic.
[21:41] <ejaustin> common interests and honor are essential to relationships as well, including bdsm
[21:41] <Tatsumi> most of WIITWD is not legal:)
[21:41] <Roamer``> agrees with Rob on both counts
[21:41] <ravenshad> True Tats considering most of..nevermind..you said it..LOLOL
[21:42] <RobLMntgn> Ah, most of what we do is counter to established Mores.
[21:42] <Tatsumi> :)
[21:42] <ravenshad> I have found that "honor" is more relied upon in BDSM than outside it..
[21:42] <ravenshad> least, that's been my experience.. :)
[21:42] <RobLMntgn> But it wasn't always illegal.
[21:42] <Roamer``> mine too
[21:42] * RobLMntgn agrees there raven
[21:43] <ravenshad> I think the major problems that come in when discussing BDSM is that so many people define the terms differently..
[21:43] <Corwyn> honor, loyalty, discipline...fine attributes
[21:43] <Mlt^jaz> I find that many dishonor on both counts ravenshad
[21:43] <ravenshad> in many cases, the terms are completely redefined to suit the person's own views..
[21:43] <ravenshad> makes it so hard to discuss anything that way..
[21:43] <ravenshad> I agree Corywn..
[21:43] <Corwyn> but rare
[21:43] <Roamer``> definitely raven
[21:43] <RobLMntgn> Of course. We are in the eyes of society outside the law anyway in most cases.
[21:44] <ravenshad> Yes they do Mlt..but most of my run ins wiht honor in the non BDSM circles have been of the "no honor" variety..
[21:44] <RobLMntgn> But at the same time, we do have within our own loosely confined community certain rules.
[21:44] <RobLMntgn> For example, you don't touch another's property without permission.
[21:44] <ravenshad> You don't try to order a collared sub around without permission (shows disrespect of the collar)
[21:44] <Tatsumi> that's an unspoken 'rule' in BDSM yes
[21:45] <RobLMntgn> Including if that person's property is their slave
[21:45] <Tatsumi> but not all follow it
[21:45] <Tatsumi> mostly they dont know
[21:45] <ravenshad> true Tats..not all follow it..
[21:45] * RobLMntgn agrees with raven there.
[21:45] <Corwyn> Interesting, what role if any does the community have in policing a relationship between individuals?
[21:45] <Tatsumi> and dont mean any disrespect, but are just new
[21:45] <ravenshad> That's a whole nother topic Corwyn.. LOL
[21:45] <RobLMntgn> Ahh, that's not as easy Corwyn.
[21:45] <Tatsumi> hopefully none Corwyn
[21:45] * RobLMntgn agrees there. LOL.
[21:45] <ravenshad> depends on the community..usually, none..
[21:45] * Roamer`` grins (not without defining the terms first anyway Corwyn)
[21:46] <ravenshad> with BDSM being so varied, it would be difficult to come up with any "community" rules
[21:46] <RobLMntgn> Only if the indivdual's relationship afects the community
[21:46] <Mlt^jaz> the only role a community has is consentuallity
[21:46] <Corwyn> Ahhh, I believe it depends on the community for all even the most casual have certain rules
[21:46] <Tatsumi> i dont want anyone <no matter how good their intentions> governing my personal life
[21:46] * ravenshad makes notes for next discussion...
[21:47] <Mlt^jaz> To Me that is the one binding rule set out.
[21:47] <RobLMntgn> Ah,but how about how your personal life affects the community Tats?
[21:47] <ravenshad> OK..we are getting off topic..
[21:47] <ravenshad> why don't we take a break for a few..
[21:47] <Tatsumi> what do you mean Rob?
[21:47] <Tatsumi> ok raven:)
[21:47] <Corwyn> I guess what I am getting at is that the definitions being looked for are variable depending on the larger community, the local community, and the individuals
[21:48] <Tatsumi> i need more coffee anyway:)
[21:48] * RobLMntgn recommends that raven might want to consider this for future topic. LOL
[21:48] <ravenshad> me too Tats.. :)
[21:48] <ravenshad> (I am Rob, next week.."community rules?? fact or fiction"
[21:48] <ravenshad> oh goody..raven the investigative reporter..or would that be As LnR Turns?
[21:49] <RobLMntgn> But on the slave vs submissive issue. Wouldn't the final decision on whether one was a slave or a submissive rest totally with the parties involved?
[21:49] <Tatsumi> yes Rob:)
[21:49] <Roamer``> I agree there Rob
[21:49] <Corwyn> Rob yes
[21:49] <Roamer``> it mostly seems to come doewn to the perceptions involved
[21:49] <RobLMntgn> Then it follows that if that is true, they will set their own rules for each relationship.
[21:50] <RobLMntgn> i.e. What I consider a slave may be considered by another as a submissive.
[21:50] <RobLMntgn> and vice versa
[21:50] <Roamer``> definitely
[21:51] <RobLMntgn> Nice meeting you folks.
[21:53] <ravenshad> I'm not so sure that what one would call submissive another would call slave..for me, there is a single defining line..it comes in with the word "owned"
[21:53] <ravenshad> a sub, is owned only to a point, and sets limits on the ownership of them...
[21:53] <ravenshad> a slave, considers themselves the property of the dominant, and doesn't set limits..
[21:54] <Roamer``> what sort of limits raven ?
[21:55] <ravenshad> they can set limits on types of play allowed..
[21:55] <ravenshad> what the dominant is allowed or is not allowed to do
[21:55] <ravenshad> a slave can't do that..
[21:55] <Soulhuntr> Am I late? :;innocent look::
[21:55] <ravenshad> LOL Yes Sir..you are..but that's ok..I'm forgiving :)
[21:55] <Roamer``> ok, gotcha
[21:55] <Tatsumi> maybe Raven, i know one sub
[21:55] <Roamer``> I was thinking along diferent lines
[21:56] <Tatsumi> even so far as to give her life to him
[21:56] <Tatsumi> yet they both consider her a submissive, not slave
[21:56] <Soulhuntr> So I have been thinking about this.
[21:56] <ravenshad> yes..there are some out there Tats..
[21:56] <Soulhuntr> Perhaps it is the implied length of service?
[21:56] <ravenshad> Have they ever said why Tats?
[21:56] <ravenshad> Hmmmm..good point Soul..could be.. :)
[21:56] <Soulhuntr> Every slave I know is in it for life... with that dominant.
[21:57] <Soulhuntr> Most subs I know will leave if he doesnt live up to his end of it.
[21:57] <Soulhuntr> So perhapse...
[21:57] <Soulhuntr> it is more about the dominants end than the subs?
[21:57] <ravenshad> could be..
[21:57] <Soulhuntr> Are slave more forgiving than subs?
[21:57] <ravenshad> but wouldn't a slave leave if they truly felt they had to?
[21:57] <Roamer``> not necessarily soul
[21:57] <Soulhuntr> Well... "had" too is a different thing.
[21:57] * ravenshad sits back and thinks for a moment..
[21:58] <Soulhuntr> I am thinking in terms of the dominant maintaining a set of standards.
[21:58] <ravenshad> possibly, in some ways, yes a slave may be more forgiving..but I hesitate to say they definitely are..
[21:58] <cheryl{RL> If the Master really hurt the slave, and the slave is not happy with this,,,does that make them a submissive then?
[21:58] <Roamer``> <---missed the point (thanks for clarifying)
[21:58] <Soulhuntr> No , I dont think so cheryl.
[21:59] <ravenshad> No I don't think so cheryl..
[21:59] <Tatsumi> if a sub is not getting all of her desires in life fulfilled by her dom, she is likely to move on. a slave is not
[21:59] <ravenshad> Excellent point Tats!
[22:00] <ravenshad> should a slave be allowed a safeword?
[22:00] <Roamer``> a safeword is a safeword raven
[22:00] <Soulhuntr> Yes, good point tats :)
[22:00] <Roamer``> why should it be "disallowed" ?
[22:00] <Soulhuntr> A slaves "needs" generally revolve around being owned, the ownership itself, more so than the uses that ownership is put to.
[22:00] <Tatsumi> safewords are a comletely different topic:)
[22:00] <ravenshad> gives the slave some form of control Roamer..
[22:01] <ravenshad> yes it is a different topic..but it is actually part of the reason this topic came up for this week.. ;)
[22:01] <Roamer``> you think so raven ?
[22:01] <ravenshad> honestly, for me, yes I think that Roamer..though i realize others don't think that, and that's fine :)
[22:02] <Roamer``> ok raven, i can see that, its another "viewpoint thing"
[22:02] <ravenshad> name something that isn't a viewpoint thing? <giggle>
[22:02] <ravenshad> sorry..I just had to say that..
[22:02] <Roamer``> hmmmmmmm
[22:02] <Tatsumi> lol raven
[22:02] <ravenshad> I know!~
[22:02] <ravenshad> The sky is blue!
[22:03] <Soulhuntr> Basically, I see the motivations somewhat different, but few of the details of the service change between the two.
[22:03] <Roamer``> touche
[22:03] <Soulhuntr> Actually... it's clear :)
[22:03] <ravenshad> motivations?
[22:03] <Roamer``> define blue raven ?
[22:03] <ravenshad> LOLOL Soul
[22:03] <Soulhuntr> The blue is an illusion :)
[22:03] <Tatsumi> Daddy! :)
[22:03] <Roamer``> <----colourblind
[22:03] <ravenshad> ROFLMAO
[22:03] <ravenshad> touche`
[22:03] <ravenshad> ok..I am female..that's not a viewpoint either..it's biological fact.. LOLOL
[22:03] <Roamer``> actually, its black...its just the atmosphrere getting in the way
[22:04] <Roamer``> <-getting off the topic again
[22:04] <ravenshad> sorry..my fault..
[22:04] <ravenshad> What are the motivations, as you see them, for a slave?
[22:05] <Roamer``> isn that the root cause of pur discussion ?
[22:05] <ravenshad> yup.. :)
[22:05] <Roamer``> motivations depend on the people
[22:06] <Roamer``> and (lets be honest) no two people have the same motiations
[22:06] <Roamer``> so there is no simple answer
[22:06] <Soulhuntr> Well, motivations can be divided into broad groups.
[22:06] <ravenshad> Aren't there some driving forces/motivations which are similar among certain groups?
[22:06] <Soulhuntr> Motivations <> reasons
[22:07] <Roamer``> yes there are raven
[22:07] <Soulhuntr> I see slavery/submissions as a grey scale.
[22:07] <Soulhuntr> One can have aspects of both.
[22:07] <Soulhuntr> Slavery - he owns me.
[22:07] <Soulhuntr> Submission - I help him.
[22:07] <Roamer``> but the reason behind the motivations/driving forces care not necessarily the same
[22:08] <Soulhuntr> Actually, I feel that motivations drive reasons.
[22:08] <ravenshad> can a slave see themselves as helping the dominant?
[22:08] <Roamer``> i beleive so yes raven
[22:08] <Roamer``> since (in a broad sense)
[22:08] <Roamer``> the slave/submissive helps defone the Dominant
[22:08] <Roamer``> define even
[22:09] <Tatsumi> define? what do you mean?
[22:09] * ravenshad ponders that..
[22:09] <cinna`> thank you Roamer
[22:09] <ravenshad> I am not sure I define my Master...never thought of it that way..
[22:09] <Roamer``> well any relationship, be it D/s, M/s or even BDSM ...in each case.....the one role defines the other
[22:11] <Roamer``> even in TPE relationships
[22:11] <cinna`> you are soooooooo right Roamer
[22:11] <cheryl{RL> Good Night A/all....was enjoyable...missed you all.
[22:11] <ravenshad> night cheryl :)
[22:11] <Tatsumi> defines the other's role? sure. but not the other person.
[22:11] <cinna`> good night cheryl
[22:11] <ravenshad> ok..I can see how I would define the role..
[22:11] <Roamer``> so, by his/her very choice of "slave" ..the slave has helped define the relationship..hence the Dominant
[22:12] <ravenshad> I see what you mean, I think..
[22:12] <Soulhuntr> Umm... I dont see it :)
[22:12] <ravenshad> a dominant chooses a slave, therefore that choice defines the relationship as M/s not D/s..and dominant as "master" not just a "dom"???
[22:12] <Soulhuntr> I am not defined by those under me, any more than they are defined by me.
[22:12] <Roamer``> appologies, i may not be phrasing it very well
[22:12] <ravenshad> or am I way out in left field..
[22:12] <Soulhuntr> We are insights into each other.
[22:12] <Roamer``> i disagree Soul
[22:13] <Roamer``> because you take responsibility for them, they help to define you.....
[22:13] <Soulhuntr> ::thinks:: no.... I dont see it :) But its ok, we will run with it for now.
[22:14] * ravenshad thinks she's in left feild..pulls out a lounge chair and relaxes..you run Soul, Sir..I'm bushed..
[22:14] * ravenshad will just follow along..
[22:14] <Roamer``> well ok raven.one littel question though.....can a Dominant /master "choose"what isnt freely given ?
[22:14] <Soulhuntr> I dont see dom/sub as being any more inherantly 'mutual' or egalitarian than master/slave.
[22:15] <Soulhuntr> yes :)
[22:15] * ravenshad thinks..
[22:15] <ravenshad> yes Roamer, he can...
[22:15] * cinna` wonders if raven has a headache yet
[22:15] <ravenshad> whether or not he gets it is a different thing though..
[22:16] <cinna`> LOL
[22:16] <Soulhuntr> In many cases, the subs consent or allowance of control is more like a veto than a 'giving"
[22:16] <Roamer``> ROFL
[22:16] <ravenshad> not yet cinna..and the list is currently buttering me up for frying..
[22:16] <ravenshad> a veto?
[22:16] <Soulhuntr> Yes.
[22:16] <ravenshad> as in able to say no..right?
[22:16] <Soulhuntr> ::thinks of an explaination::
[22:17] <Soulhuntr> I know of several subs who would not have 'freely" given themselves to their current doms without having been heavily influenced....
[22:17] <Soulhuntr> in the end, their consent came down to not vetoing the relationship, rather than chosing it.
[22:17] <cinna`> I feel sorry for them
[22:17] * Roamer`` feels sorry for them too
[22:17] <Soulhuntr> ::chuckles:: No need to do so :)
[22:18] <Soulhuntr> They are rather happy :)
[22:18] <ravenshad> I can understand that..
[22:18] <cinna`> OH YES there is a great need to do so
[22:18] * ravenshad has done that..
[22:18] <cinna`> they are just in the intermission
[22:18] <cinna`> and not the show
[22:18] <Soulhuntr> <- is wondering what pre-conceptions he triggered :)
[22:18] <ravenshad> but at some point, wouldn't it become a choice to continue the relationship Soul?
[22:18] <Soulhuntr> Cinna - hardly :)
[22:18] <cinna`> so YOU say
[22:18] <Soulhuntr> It is just a matter of not having seen the potential, or having been too scared to act, or having been caught upo in other things.
[22:19] <Soulhuntr> In at least one case, it was a woman who was seriously 'nilla - or so she thought.
[22:19] <cinna`> so you think it is wise to enter into a relationship with someone who is not paying attention?
[22:19] <Soulhuntr> There is no WAY she would have said "ok, you be my master" to the man involved.
[22:19] <Soulhuntr> cinna - I think we define relationship differently :)
[22:19] <ravenshad> cinna...
[22:20] <Soulhuntr> I am in a 'relationship' with the toll booth collectors :)
[22:20] <ravenshad> if I may..I might be able to explain ...
[22:20] <Soulhuntr> go :)
[22:20] * Roamer`` listens
[22:20] * cinna` isn't so sure
[22:20] * Soulhuntr tags ravenshad in...
[22:20] * ravenshad accepts the tag..
[22:21] <ravenshad> a little to the left next time..<eg>
[22:21] <ravenshad> ok..
[22:21] * cinna` thinks she is being ganged up on and thinks she likes it
[22:21] <Tatsumi> lol cinna:)
[22:21] <Roamer``> ROFL
[22:21] <ravenshad> no cinna..I just think I might be able to explain what he means..in a way you will understand it is all..
[22:21] <ravenshad> it's not being forced..
[22:21] <cinna`> but she is not sure because she isn't really paying attention
[22:22] <ravenshad> when I first started living with Bugs..he was given control over me by Az..
[22:22] <ravenshad> (which was a whole nother issue..but anyway)
[22:22] * ravenshad winks to cinna..no problem
[22:22] <ravenshad> I followed that order because it was given by Az, though not of my "choice"...
[22:22] <ravenshad> at first anyway..
[22:23] <ravenshad> it was not my choice...though eventually it became my choice..
[22:23] <ravenshad> I think Soul is speaking of something similar to that..
[22:23] * cinna` wonders if Bugs (kisses to Bugs) is listening
[22:24] <ravenshad> he is..
[22:24] <cinna`> I know
[22:24] <Roamer``> watching too
[22:24] * ravenshad wouldn't have put it in channel without permission..
[22:24] <ravenshad> The sub didn't see the potential at first, so would not normally have "chosen" that person...
[22:25] <cinna`> if I may interject.........
[22:25] <Soulhuntr> Basically, the point is that there are all sorts of ways and levels to control, and only a few of them need consent.
[22:25] <cinna`> I could tell long before you could that it was inevitable
[22:25] <cinna`> I saw it coming
[22:25] <cinna`> so it was not just Az
[22:26] <ravenshad> I didn't cinna..least not the way it has become..and I struggle with that sometimes..
[22:26] <cinna`> but it was inevitable , raven
[22:26] <cinna`> so the analogy does not work
[22:26] <cinna`> it is an illusion
[22:27] <ravenshad> I didn't see it as inevitable cinna..
[22:28] <ravenshad> but, everyone has differing viewpoints when looking at other's relationships..
[22:28] * ravenshad tags Soul back in
[22:28] <ravenshad> your turn.. :)
[22:28] <cinna`> yes........but it does not mean that any of the views are right
[22:28] <Roamer``> or wrong cinna
[22:28] <Roamer``> just differing is all
[22:28] <cinna`> or wrong
[22:28] * cinna` blows kisses to Roameer
[22:28] <cinna`> Roamer
[22:29] <Roamer``> can you imagine what conversations would be like if we were all the same ?
[22:29] <ravenshad> Good Lord!! BORING!!!
[22:29] <Roamer``> no pint in having them
[22:29] <ravenshad> ummm..have you had a pint tonight Roamer??
[22:29] <Roamer``> i knew you were going to say that raven
[22:29] <Roamer``> at 5:30 am raven ?
[22:30] <Roamer``> no pubs open im afraid
[22:30] <cinna`> no pint?
[22:30] <ravenshad> look at your typing..you said "pint"
[22:30] * ravenshad giggles
[22:30] <Roamer``> <-checked
[22:30] <ravenshad> ok..
[22:30] * cinna` loves a pint now and then
[22:30] <ravenshad> Anyone else want to toss something out?
[22:31] <Soulhuntr> Umm....
[22:31] <Soulhuntr> a business plan :)
[22:31] <Soulhuntr> ::chuckles::
[22:31] * ravenshad giggles
[20:30] <ravenshad> you must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave
[20:30] <ravenshad> legal age being at least 18 if not 21
[20:30] <ravenshad> no trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night
[20:30] <ravenshad> be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[20:30] <ravenshad> If flaming continues..a temporary ban will be placed..
[20:30] <ravenshad> all statements are publishable on the web site, with nicks changed (at your request, email webmaster@leathernroses.com if you don't want your nick used.
[20:31] <ravenshad> If I do not receive an email by tomorrow night, I will assume that you have granted permission for your nick to appear on the site and the log will go up intact..
[20:31] <ravenshad> The topic tonight is what is your perception of slavery..The best question I can think of to start this off is..
[20:31] <ravenshad> What is slavery to you?
[20:32] <mist> I am not sure to answer that and I thought I had an answeer for everything...LOL
[20:32] <KimiD> looks like you have to start raven :grins:
[20:32] * ravenshad giggles..
[20:33] <Mlt^jaz> I'll start...
[20:33] <Mlt^jaz> :)
[20:33] * mist looks at raven
[20:33] <ravenshad> Ok Mlt and jaz, go for it :)
[20:34] <Mlt^jaz> slavery to Me is what two ppl decide to choose to make thier lifestyle to be..for us...it is a continually growing and enveloping part of our relationshiop that we see as valuable as our togetherness itself,
[20:34] <Mlt^jaz> It is cotinually built upon and growing....
[20:35] <Mlt^jaz> I feel as Master that one must continually build upon what the foundation was set upon...
[20:35] <mist> slavery is what I am....my nature...
[20:35] <Mlt^jaz> and as a slave it is striving to be more than what you ever thought possible....
[20:36] <ravenshad> I don't know, maybe this is too simplistic, but to me, slavery is being owned by another..
[20:36] * mist looks confused
[20:36] <Mlt^jaz> very true mist....not in all cases though.
[20:36] <ravenshad> Wouldn't that hold true for subs as well Mlt?
[20:36] <mist> agreed raven...
[20:36] <Bugs42`> I see slavery as completely giving of oneself in all respects to another, becoming the other persons property
[20:36] <Mlt^jaz> owned perhaps...but still a partnership. IMO
[20:36] <mist> I do think it has to be your nature for you to be a defined slave
[20:36] <ravenshad> agreed mist, it has to be in the person's nature..
[20:36] <KimiD> no partnership to me
[20:36] <mist> not in a partership
[20:37] <KimiD> i have the ability to give him advice but he doesn't have to take it
[20:37] * mist shakes head
[20:37] <ravenshad> I'm sorry, but I can't veiw it as a partnership..
[20:37] <mist> agreed
[20:37] <ravenshad> Agreed Kimi..final decisions are his..
[20:37] <Mlt^jaz> exactly KimiD
[20:37] <Mlt^jaz> why is it not a partnership...
[20:37] <mist> but still knowing he has my best interests at heart whether or not he takes my advice
[20:37] <Bugs42`> now, can it be a partnersip if that is what is agreed to in the beginning?
[20:37] <Mlt^jaz> without one there is no other..?
[20:38] * Corwyn considers the role of responsibility
[20:38] <Mlt^jaz> Certainly.
[20:38] <ravenshad> well, in a partnership, each partner has the right to make decisions independent of each other..as well, each partner has the freedom to say "no"
[20:38] <mist> I serve...but he is always a Master with or without me...
[20:38] <ravenshad> a slave, usualy is not allowed to tell his/her master no
[20:38] <ravenshad> Possibly Bugs..
[20:38] <mist> I am superfluous to the equation
[20:39] <mist> I am a slave with or with out him...
[20:39] <Mlt^jaz> To Me...one is given the gift of their own opinion and verse.
[20:39] <mist> I don't give a gift....
[20:39] <Mlt^jaz> I take waht I chose and decide what will stand.
[20:39] * _mizu_ sit's and think's for a moment
[20:40] <ravenshad> exactly Mlt
[20:40] <KimiD> we were talking about that today..a gift is like giving someone a favor..i'm not doing Daddy a favor by being his submissive
[20:40] <Mlt^jaz> doing a favour is not giving a gift...it is a favour.
[20:41] <KimiD> the two in my mind aren't that far apart
[20:41] <Mlt^jaz> A gift is uncoinditional and precious to cherrish.
[20:41] <KimiD> i understand the differences..but for this discussion it's close enough for me
[20:41] <KimiD> so is a favor..you don't expect anything in return most times for doing a favor
[20:41] <KimiD> or you shouldn't
[20:41] <mist> I don't...
[20:41] <ntalia> a favor certainly can be a gift.
[20:42] * ravenshad ponders
[20:43] <ravenshad> OK..I can see giving somoene complete rights over me as being a "gift" in some people's eyes..
[20:43] <ravenshad> but, is it really a gift when in reality I am only being myself?
[20:43] <ravenshad> It's not something "special" done solely for someone else..it isn't something I can't shut off or ignore...
[20:43] <Mlt^jaz> swinging back to topic...would you consider a slave to have thier own identity and point of view?
[20:43] * ravenshad hopes that makes any sense
[20:43] * mist nodding
[20:43] <ravenshad> yes I would Mlt..
[20:43] <ntalia> i had a choice when i was my master's. but i relinquished that choice.
[20:43] <KimiD> a good and valuable one..yes
[20:44] <Mlt^jaz> true ntalia
[20:44] <ravenshad> just because someone is slave doesn't mean they don't have a choice..
[20:44] <ravenshad> or their own identity..
[20:44] <Mlt^jaz> Very true ravenshad
[20:45] <Mlt^jaz> *whew*...ppl on the same track :)
[20:45] <ravenshad> Does a slave have the right to set limits on the relationship?
[20:45] <cinna`> I hope not, raven
[20:45] <Mlt^jaz> Good question...
[20:46] <mist> I don't think that a slave sets limits... but hopefully whom a slave consents to knows enough about his/her slave that they are compatible
[20:46] <ravenshad> Bugs: no
[20:46] <ravenshad> agreed mist.. :)
[20:46] <Mlt^jaz> they can set them...I have this wonderful way of taking her past them at her own desire and whim. :))
[20:46] <mist> how can a slave set limits?
[20:46] <Mlt^jaz> In thier mind one always does.....
[20:47] <mist> I don't....outside of moral limits...but didn't we agree those were outside the realm of BDDSM entirely?
[20:47] <Mlt^jaz> That is the glory of this lifestyle...
[20:47] <ravenshad> some agreed to that yes mist..
[20:47] <ntalia> my master regarded my " no"s as real limits. but that is because i didn't often use the term with him.
[20:47] <ntalia> he recognized my limits, and taught me to get past them.
[20:48] <Bugs42`> I do not see that a slave can set any limits, I own my slave and the only limits are the ones I set
[20:48] <ravenshad> whether or not limits are allowed seems to be highly dependent upon the people involved in the relationship...
[20:48] <mist> I don't beg well...so when I do beg he knows my mental state....but I wouldn't call that a limit
[20:48] <Mlt^jaz> interesting ntalia.....In our case...the no's are oppsoite...
[20:48] <cinna`> ahhhhhh, talia........I understand
[20:48] <ravenshad> I personally, do not feel I have the right to set limits upon my master..he is aware of what I like and don't like..but the decisions are his
[20:48] <Mlt^jaz> Exactly ravenshad
[20:49] <Bugs42`> what are your limits cinna`?
[20:49] <ravenshad> Wouldn't setting limits on the relationship's activities go against actually being a slave and being owned??
[20:49] <mist> I think it does...
[20:50] <cinna`> I am not sure as yet, Bugs, Sir
[20:50] <Bugs42`> How do you go about setting your limits?
[20:51] <Mlt^jaz> May I give an example of a limit that was challenged inour situation...
[20:51] <ravenshad> sure Mlt :)
[20:51] <ravenshad> but could I ask for you to wait just one moment for cinna's answer? to cut down on confusion?
[20:52] <cinna`> but then I do not submit to someone who does not have my desires in mind
[20:52] <ravnshad> could someone paste please? last I saw as "Roamer sits down to listen"
[20:53] *** ravenshad was kicked by ravnshad (GHOST)
[20:54] <Bugs42`> did you have limits that you already knew of?
[20:54] <Bugs42`> that makes sense
[20:54] <cinna`> no.......I only know things I am not ready for
[20:55] <Bugs42`> personally, I think many could set that as a limit, kind of think time
[20:55] <cinna`> but that is not a limit
[20:55] <cinna`> just a time to think
[20:55] <cinna`> and become accustomed
[20:55] <cinna`> and decide how much His pleasure means to me
[20:56] <tracy> could you explain that cinna?
[20:56] <cinna`> but then He wantws me to be entirely His without any reservations
[20:56] <ravnshad> cinna, sounds more like "discussing possibilities" than telling him outright no
[20:57] <cinna`> so he is careful and deliberate in His dealings with me
[20:57] <Corwyn> cinna..doesn't his pleasure bring you pleasure??
[20:57] <cinna`> Yes........I t does.....Infinite pleasure
[20:57] <cinna`> and He has never asked anything of me aS YET THAT i WAS UNPREPARED TO GIVE
[20:58] <cinna`> THEREFORE......i Have not found a limit
[20:58] <tracy> lucky you
[20:58] <cinna`> I believe that he takes great care in what he asks of me
[20:58] <cinna`> and that He knows when I am ready for the next step
[20:58] <ravnshad> I believe a dominant should take care in what he asks of a submissive or a slave..pushing them too quickly can lead to serious problems..
[20:58] <Corwyn> Bothe master and slave have....responsibilities to each other.
[20:58] <tracy> how can you have growth without pushing?
[20:58] <ntalia> yes cinna, exactly. there is nothing i would not have given to my master or for him. the only personal limit was my life for his pleasure. but i would gladly have traded my life for his had it been possible
[20:58] <cinna`> I aM SO IN thrall
[20:59] <ravnshad> you can't, but there is a difference between pushing and outright forcing tracy..
[20:59] * ntalia nods to Corwyn. both take care of each other, but in different ways..
[20:59] <Corwyn> perhaps I should say obligations
[20:59] * Roamer`` agrees wit hntalia and Corwyn
[21:00] <ravnshad> ok..Mlt, your example?
[21:00] <Mlt^jaz> In our case when we met ...enimas were out of the question....however over time I had a deep feeling inside that this was something that I wanted to explore and sensed that My slave may as well...so I came home with an enima kit...and it was not questined as to why I bought it...yet I knew we had discussed ot as a limit...and yet it was mulled over in her mind and her true ambitions to please and serve Me. It ended up that she
[21:00] <tracy> that's a pretty fine line raven
[21:00] <ejaustin> i have limits, but i am merely a submissive and your discussions seem to focus on slaves
[21:00] <ravnshad> yes..but many things are a fine line tracy.. :)
[21:00] <Mlt^jaz> I hope that makes snese of what I was saying about limitas and opinions.
[21:00] <tracy> true :)
[21:00] <KimiD> what you may think is forcing..could in retrospect be pushing ;)
[21:00] <ravnshad> not all of them ej..
[21:00] <Mlt^jaz> very true raven.
[21:00] <ntalia> my master was my protector and guardian. he supplied me with the essentials of life - money to buy the the food and shelter and clothes that were my necessities. in return, i was his housemaid, and his maiden. i was there to wake him in the morning and never slept before hedid
[21:00] <KimiD> therefore it requires trust
[21:01] <subdancer> trippy
[21:01] <ejaustin> the ones that i have seen... here and on the list <s> but if i were convinced that this were uniformly true, i'd go my way and leave y'all to yours <s>
[21:01] <ravnshad> yes Kimi.. :)
[21:01] <Corwyn> ahhh trust...a fragile thing...and hard to repair once broken
[21:01] <cinna`> I am not a slave
[21:01] <tracy> i agree Kimi you have to trust him to know what is appropriate
[21:01] <Mlt^jaz> My slaves main focus is on the fact that I am looking our for her best interset and protecting every part of her.
[21:01] <ravnshad> Well, most of the talkative people on the list are more into M/s than D/s ej..
[21:01] <cinna`> I am a sub.........but I still have not found a limit
[21:01] <KimiD> but rarely ever really broken..at least i know very very few dom's who've broken their trust
[21:01] <tracy> since we are the ones being pushed it is difficult to be oblective about it
[21:02] <Emile`> so at what point does a sub become a slave?
[21:02] <ravnshad> For me Emile, it was when I realized I felt no need to set any limits and did indeed give myself completely to someone else's rule..
[21:02] <Tatsumi> that's a personal disticntion Emile
[21:02] <KimiD> when your only option to say No is when your walking out the door (for me)
[21:03] <ravnshad> and found that I liked it, preferred it that way, and well..here I am
[21:03] <Mlt^jaz> Exactly raven
[21:03] <Mlt^jaz> that is how we are....
[21:03] <Emile`> so it's complete trust, or faith?
[21:04] <Mlt^jaz> both
[21:04] <ravenshad> for me Emile, both
[21:04] <ejaustin> i think that a sub can have complete trust and faith, too
[21:04] <cinna`> hmmmmm..........my Master.......does not want me to be a doormat
[21:04] <KimiD> thin line for me there
[21:04] <cinna`> he loves me ......the whole me
[21:04] <KimiD> why do you have to be a doormat to accept his decisions?
[21:04] <Mlt^jaz> No Master should.
[21:04] <cinna`> so he takes pride in me what I am doing other things
[21:04] <KimiD> that's the number one scapegoat it seems
[21:04] * ravenshad smiles..cinna would you say I am a doormat?
[21:05] <ravenshad> yes Kimi..it is..
[21:05] <cinna`> and he wants to own me in every way......and He does
[21:05] <Mlt^jaz> exactly cinna
[21:05] <tracy> what is the number 1 scapegoat?
[21:05] <KimiD> the "doormat" theory
[21:05] <ravenshad> saying a slave has to be a doormat tracy
[21:05] <tracy> oh
[21:05] <ejaustin> to imply that slaves must be doormats, tracy
[21:05] <tracy> never seen it
[21:05] <tracy> not once
[21:05] <KimiD> your lucky
[21:05] <tracy> i have seen martyrs
[21:05] <tracy> but they like it that way
[21:05] <cinna`> I could call mysaelf a slave , raven........but I would not call myslef a doormat
[21:05] <ravenshad> cinna, a slave need not be a doormat..
[21:05] <cinna`> nor you... gf
[21:05] <ravenshad> exactly
[21:05] <Roamer``> exactly raven
[21:05] <ravenshad> cinna, I am slave..(yeah took me a while to figure that out) and I am not a doormat
[21:06] <ravenshad> far from it actually
[21:06] <cinna`> they are not the same thing........but some people think they are
[21:06] <ravenshad> yes..too many people think they are the same thing..
[21:06] <ejaustin> there is another common implication that bothers me...
[21:06] <ravenshad> and that is ej?
[21:07] <ejaustin> that implication is that a submissive either has not found the "right" Master or that trust is lacking, else she would be a slave
[21:07] <ravenshad> I agree ej, and I don't like that implication either..
[21:07] <tracy> actually i think there is something to be said for that
[21:07] <tracy> horrible aren't I ::smile
[21:07] <Mlt^jaz> to go along with the doormat thought....not all slaves are house maids...not that a slave who is one is wroing...just expanding on the point...it is not a necessary component to all Master/slave relationships.
[21:07] <ravenshad> Though i have to say that I haven't seen that one as much as I have seen the doormat one for both subs and slaves..
[21:07] <tracy> and i don't think i am a slave btw::grin
[21:07] <KimiD> if what you are looking for is to BE a slave..then that theory hold true
[21:07] <ejaustin> better to say it outright than to hint at it constantly, tracy
[21:07] <ejaustin> i can deal with straightforward disagreement <s>
[21:08] <tracy> if slave is submissive with absolute trust then isn't it just a matter of finding the right person to give that trust to?
[21:08] <cinna`> LOL.........I am a VERY Domme person in my work life.......however.......when I come home
[21:08] <Corwyn> slave/servant can be a protector like the knight of a king ( I know a hyperbole)
[21:08] <ravenshad> true Mlt..I believe someone said something about training for different vocations..specialty slaves I guess you could call them..and housework is not one that every slave has to be..
[21:08] <cinna`> I am entirley submissive
[21:08] <ejaustin> raven, it could be that we are each more sensitive to the implications that do not fit our own personal experience
[21:08] <ravenshad> probably so ej..
[21:08] <ejaustin> i don't think so, tracy
[21:08] <cinna`> I have a need to be dominated......and he is the stronger for the strength in me
[21:09] <ejaustin> i think there is more to being a slave than merely being a sub with complete trust
[21:09] <Mlt^jaz> hense the point I brought up a the beginning...it is what yoiu make it to be...
[21:09] <tracy> what more?
[21:09] * ejaustin considers
[21:09] <KimiD> i'd like to know to (just curious what you think> :)
[21:09] <ejaustin> let me run and get a drink and think how to state it clearly
[21:09] <ravenshad> I can say how being slave is different for me than being sub
[21:09] <tracy> k ::smile
[21:09] <Mlt^jaz> go for it...
[21:09] <Mlt^jaz> :)
[21:10] <Corwyn> strength and service are not contradictory
[21:10] <KimiD> see..now i can't raven
[21:10] <Roamer``> how so raven ?
[21:10] <ravenshad> ok..this may ramble..so have patience please.. :)
[21:10] <ravenshad> no they are not contradictory Corwyn, in fact, in my opinion they go together
[21:10] * Roamer`` engages "patience" mode
[21:10] <ejaustin> patience = on
[21:10] * ravenshad thinks for a moment for proper words..
[21:11] <Tatsumi> slave and sub are different for me too
[21:11] <ravenshad> When I first began learning the terminology of BDSM..I adopted many things that I did not agree to inside myself, because I felt they were the "right" way to do things..
[21:11] <ravenshad> forgot the fact I hadn't done any of those in the 13 years (at that point) I had been phsycially active with S/m and B/d..
[21:11] <ravenshad> anyway..
[21:11] <ejaustin> i think that slaves give responsibility to their owners in a wider range of areas than subs do
[21:11] <ravenshad> I entered into a relationship where there was indeed a power exchange present..
[21:12] <ravenshad> real life relationship...24/7 type thing.. :)
[21:12] * ejaustin listens
[21:12] <ravenshad> I was submissive then..partly because I was refusing to see many things inside myself out of fear of losing who I am and being the proverbial doormat..
[21:12] <ravenshad> as a sub, I did not feel the need to please as consistently as I do now..
[21:12] <ravenshad> as a sub, I did not hesitate to say "no" under certain conditions..
[21:13] <ravenshad> the intensity of my feelings was not as great as it is now..
[21:13] <ravenshad> for me, it differs on the emotional and psychological level
[21:14] * cinna` huggles raven
[21:14] <ejaustin> it seems to me that slaves become focussed on developing their identities as complements to their Master....
[21:14] <Mlt^jaz> very wise ravenshad
[21:14] <ravenshad> even when angry, (and I mean PISSED) I still feel the need to please..and will do things strictly to please master...
[21:15] <Tatsumi> it's not quite that way for me, but i dont think i could explain it well. sorry
[21:15] <ravenshad> the depth of the emotions are different..
[21:15] <ejaustin> subs' identities include their submission, but may include some things without reference to Master
[21:15] * ravenshad huggles cinna
[21:15] * Corwyn smiles, looks toward fire
[21:15] <ravenshad> thanks Mlt..but I lost my train of thought..
[21:15] <Mlt^jaz> May I back track to a quote of your then>?
[21:15] <ejaustin> maybe that's what i see as being a crucial difference
[21:15] <ravenshad> go ahead Mlt.. :)
[21:16] <ravenshad> there is that ej, but there are things I do which are outside Master's rule by his choice..
[21:16] <Mlt^jaz> <ravenshad> as a sub, I did not feel the need to please as
[21:16] <Mlt^jaz> consistently as I do now..
[21:16] <Mlt^jaz> <ravenshad> the intensity of my feelings was not as great as it is
[21:16] <Mlt^jaz> now..
[21:17] <Mlt^jaz> those to Me are the main difference between submission and slavery...
[21:18] <ejaustin> again, Mlt, it sounds like a sub merely hasn't found the right Master or doesn't feel as strongly about it
[21:18] <Mlt^jaz> For us there is a deeper growth and connection that was not there prior to our Master/slave relationship
[21:18] <Roamer``> its the psychological aspect
[21:18] <ravenshad> I can see how it sounds that way ej, but that isn't what is being meant..
[21:18] <ravenshad> yes Mlt :)
[21:18] <ejaustin> then i will wait for clarification <s>
[21:18] <Mlt^jaz> ejustin there is nothing wrong with being simply a submissive...
[21:18] <ravenshad> ej, we are defining slavery...which is indeed different than a submissive..
[21:18] <Mlt^jaz> it is two different lifestyles.
[21:19] <ejaustin> evidently, Mlt, i agree with that
[21:19] <ravenshad> but, there are many similarities as well ej..
[21:19] <cheryl{RL> Does self-confidence play into the difference?
[21:19] * cinna` thinks may be she should have looked at the topic
[21:19] <ejaustin> agreed... and y'all will make me vanilla yet... lol
[21:19] <ravenshad> I doubt that ej..LOL
[21:19] <ravenshad> in what way cheryl?
[21:19] <Mlt^jaz> the same as a masochist is different from a submissive is different from a slave.
[21:20] <Tatsumi> i dont think so cheryl
[21:20] <ravenshad> I think a sub or slave should have self condfidence...but not be a snob..
[21:20] <ravenshad> I see that as a similarity..
[21:20] <Tatsumi> i think you have to have it for either slave or sub
[21:20] <cheryl{RL> Does a sub maybe not have as much confidence as a slave?
[21:20] <Mlt^jaz> it's jaz's confidence in herself that has made her worthy as a slave....
[21:20] * RobLMntgn agrees with Tatsumi
[21:20] * ravenshad giggles GMTA Tats
[21:20] <ravenshad> Not in my opinion cheryl..
[21:20] <ravenshad> in some ways, being slave makes a person more vulnerable..
[21:20] <ejaustin> maybe i have less confidence in the world
[21:21] <ravenshad> One can not submit to another unless they know what it is they are capable of submitting..
[21:21] <ejaustin> i don't agree with *that* at all, raven, if you mean within the relationship
[21:21] <ejaustin> perhaps i should go
[21:21] <cheryl{RL> does confidence make the difference in being/not being a doormat?
[21:21] <ravenshad> you don't have to go ej..
[21:22] <ravenshad> I think so cheryl..
[21:22] <ejaustin> i don't feel heard, raven <shrug>
[21:22] <ravenshad> I'm trying ej..
[21:22] <Tatsumi> ej, i hear you:)
[21:22] <ejaustin> yes, but... yes, but... is what i'm hearing mostly
[21:23] <ejaustin> i'm trying to listen, too, and not be defensive
[21:23] <RobLMntgn> This may have been covered before I entered.... But would one definition of the difference be
[21:23] <ravenshad> ok..things have been scrolling real fast..and that gets confusing..
[21:24] <ravenshad> I am sorry if you feel unheard ej..
[21:24] <ravenshad> please, speak your mind..
[21:24] <RobLMntgn> That a submissive has set limits and that a slave has entered slavehood with the knowledge that there are no limits?
[21:24] <Tatsumi> maybe Rob, but i know 2 subs that have no limits
[21:24] <RobLMntgn> And that that their primary joy comes in service.
[21:25] <RobLMntgn> Hmmm. I have a problem with no limits. I have my own. But to each his own.
[21:25] <Tatsumi> they dont consider themselves slaves, nor do thier doms
[21:25] <ravenshad> primary joy being serving, can be just as strong for a sub as a slave..
[21:25] <ravenshad> ok..pause..pause..
[21:25] <ravenshad> ej..go ahead..
[21:25] <Tatsumi> i also know some subs who are not inot service at all
[21:25] <Tatsumi> i agree raven:)
[21:25] <ejaustin> i don't know what else to say, raven
[21:25] <RobLMntgn> Well, how about . . . A submissie is your charge. A slave is your property.
[21:25] <ejaustin> my feelings are intense
[21:26] <ejaustin> i do trust when in a relationship
[21:26] <Corwyn> ahh, a good point
[21:26] * ravenshad listens to ej..
[21:26] <ejaustin> i am not now and never will be a slave
[21:26] <Mlt^jaz> Hmmm...well stated RobLMntgn
[21:26] * Roamer`` listens to ej also
[21:26] <ejaustin> i would never consent to allow someone to give me permanently to another, for instance
[21:26] <Tatsumi> that could be very true Rob
[21:26] <ejaustin> never
[21:26] <ravenshad> ok..ej, what do you consider to be a slave?
[21:26] * RobLMntgn thanks you Mlt
[21:26] <Mlt^jaz> That's certainly ok ej...we are not here to change minds...just expand them :)
[21:26] <Tatsumi> but that doesn't say what makes one sub vs slave
[21:27] <Tatsumi> exactly Mlt
[21:27] <ravenshad> thank you Mlt..well said :)
[21:27] <RobLMntgn> Perhaps it's the signing over of all personal rights and freedoms that makes one a slave.
[21:27] <ejaustin> my understanding is that a slave becomes property, just as my dog is my property
[21:27] <ejaustin> he is still an individual and different from other dogs
[21:27] <ejaustin> he's spunky and some days he drives me nuts
[21:27] <Tatsumi> maybe, but i know a sub who has done that too Rob
[21:28] <RobLMntgn> Hopefully of more value than your dog though ej
[21:28] <ravenshad> true...but most don't see a slave as expendible property...least not as easily as one may view a dog as expendible..
[21:28] <ejaustin> not dog lovers, are y'all? lol
[21:28] <Roamer``> LOL ej
[21:28] * RobLMntgn has 4.
[21:28] * ravenshad has 3 dogs..one pregnant one..and loves them ...
[21:28] <ejaustin> of course, more valued than a dog, but the model is similar
[21:28] * Alstr-afk has seen people advertising "real slaves for sale"... "for real, no joke, e-mail for further information to purchasing her".
[21:28] <ravenshad> yes..it is similar ej, you are correct..
[21:28] <ejaustin> if i give my dog to someone else for whatever reason, he *goes*
[21:29] <ejaustin> he eats what i give him
[21:29] <ejaustin> i teach him how to *not* drive me nuts
[21:29] <ejaustin> and i try to develop his strengths and minimize his weaknesses as a dog
[21:29] <Tatsumi> true enoguh ej
[21:29] <ejaustin> i do *not* see being a slave as
[21:29] <ejaustin> being a doormat
[21:30] <ejaustin> being seen as valueless
[21:30] <ejaustin> becoming some kind of robot
[21:30] <Tatsumi> right ej
[21:30] <ravenshad> ej..may I ask you a quick question?
[21:30] <Tatsumi> to continue with the pet analogy...
[21:30] <ejaustin> being a mindless, slavering idiot
[21:30] <ejaustin> i *do* understand that
[21:30] <Tatsumi> if your dog doesn't like the way he is being treated he will leave or attack you
[21:30] <ejaustin> of course, raven
[21:30] * RobLMntgn doesn't consider slaves to be mindless slavering idiots.
[21:30] <KimiD> :claps:
[21:30] <Tatsumi> a doormat would do niether
[21:31] <ravenshad> agreed Tats
[21:31] <ejaustin> not necessarily, Tatsumi
[21:31] <Tatsumi> you dont think so ej?
[21:31] <ejaustin> with a proper foundation, a dog will accept treatment of almost any kind
[21:31] <ravenshad> You easily state your veiws on a sub and slave..stating everything that you know slaves are *not*..
[21:31] <ejaustin> if i change my treatment of him abruptly, he most certainly would
[21:31] <ravenshad> is the frustration/problem (please pick a word I can't find one) in the word "property"?
[21:32] <ejaustin> no, i don't object to that, raven
[21:32] <Tatsumi> so will an abused person, but we are talking about healthy relationships
[21:32] <Tatsumi> with people and with pets:)
[21:32] <ejaustin> if my dog jumps the fence and runs the neighborhood (as he does on occasion)
[21:32] <ravenshad> a slave, will leave a relationship if they truly felt they had to..
[21:33] <ejaustin> and he bites someone or causes some other kind of havoc
[21:33] <ejaustin> who is responsible?
[21:33] <ravenshad> the owner..
[21:33] <Mlt^jaz> Yes
[21:33] <ejaustin> i believe that *i* am
[21:33] <Tatsumi> a good slave would yes:)
[21:33] <Tatsumi> good = heathly, worth value
[21:33] <ejaustin> i would never give someone else that level of responsibility for *my* actions
[21:33] <ravenshad> Ahhhh..ok ..I see.. :)
[21:33] <RobLMntgn> But because you wouldn't ej, doesn't make it wrong for someone else.
[21:34] <Tatsumi> the dog is responsible for his own actions to his owner but the owner is responsible to the outside world
[21:34] <Mlt^jaz> Yes Tatsumi
[21:34] <ejaustin> i'm not trying to make coverts either, Rob... just trying to explain why i don't think a sub is merely a slave who is not in the right relationship
[21:34] <ravenshad> ej, I am responsible for my actions and held accountable for them..though, in public, my actions reflect upon my master and he is the one that can and will be held responsible in addition to me..
[21:34] <Tatsumi> i agree ej
[21:34] <Roamer``> definitely ej
[21:34] <RobLMntgn> Well said raven
[21:35] <ravenshad> if I were to go to a play party, and ohhhh smack people around..people would come down on me *and* my master..
[21:35] <Tatsumi> i think slavery can be inspired but it isn't always a matter of meeting that 'right' person
[21:35] * Corwyn considers military systems and the relationships between commanders and their men
[21:35] <RobLMntgn> And I agree a sub is not merely a slave who is not in the right relationship
[21:35] <Tatsumi> yes raven
[21:35] <Tatsumi> exactly what i meant
[21:35] <ravenshad> I agree that a sub is not just a slave who is not in the right relationship either..
[21:35] <ravenshad> everyone who is submissive..is submissive to a different level..
[21:35] <Tatsumi> very similar Corwyn
[21:35] <ravenshad> we have those who are only submissive during sexual encounters..but they are submissive..
[21:35] <Tatsumi> yes raven
[21:36] <Roamer``> exactly raven (after all, we are all different)
[21:36] <ravenshad> then we have those, who are submissive only within certain pre-arranged limitations on the relationship..
[21:36] <ravenshad> they are stil submissive..
[21:36] <RobLMntgn> LOL. Now you're getting into bottoms vs submissives raven.
[21:36] <ejaustin> i would term them "bottoms" rather than submissives, raven
[21:36] <ejaustin> lol, Rob...
[21:36] <ravenshad> then there are submissives with little to no limits set on the relationships..
[21:36] <ravenshad> they are still submissive..
[21:36] <ejaustin> different minds sometimes think alike, too, Sir <s>
[21:36] <Corwyn> And different military systems have different codes of conduct between the ranks
[21:36] <RobLMntgn> LOL. It seems so.
[21:36] <ravenshad> then there are submisisves (termed slave by the definition of the relationshp) who set no limits on the relationship and consider themselves owned..
[21:37] <ravenshad> yes..the first is a bottom to me as well..but they still have some level of submission
[21:37] <ravenshad> in them..
[21:37] <RobLMntgn> Ahh, the officer corps has a much higher standard code of conduct than the enlisted, Corwyn
[21:37] <ejaustin> i was in the military, Corwyn, and it bears little relationship to *any* of my other relationships... lol
[21:37] <ejaustin> not higher, Rob, merely different
[21:37] <ravenshad> my point is, there are different levels to this for everyone..it's finding what works for you and your partner that counts.. :)
[21:37] <Mlt^jaz> As was I
[21:37] * RobLMntgn was a Marine for 22 years and there was a very different code.
[21:37] <Corwyn> Yes, but it is still a relationship governed by rules
[21:37] <RobLMntgn> All relationships have some rules, stated or unstated.
[21:37] <ejaustin> all relationships are governed by rules
[21:38] <Corwyn> and rules vary between countries
[21:38] <ejaustin> and there are the official rules and the unofficial rules, which are sometimes contradictory
[21:38] <Corwyn> Likewise , definitions of submissives, slaves, etc. are variable
[21:38] <ravenshad> yes ej..contradictory fits BDSM.. :)
[21:38] <ejaustin> the unofficial rules generally win <s>
[21:38] <Tatsumi> lol ej, but the similiarites between the miltiary and some BDSM is remarkable:)
[21:38] * RobLMntgn agrees with Corwyn
[21:39] <ravenshad> well said Corywn :)
[21:39] <Corwyn> I apologize if the analogy was a bit stretched
[21:39] <ejaustin> paradoxical, not contradictory, rave... big difference, imnsho
[21:39] <RobLMntgn> Of course Tatsumi. Both can be very structured within their own community.
[21:39] <Mlt^jaz> Exactly raven...jaz just stated the utmost gift... "all that I know is that i am your slave, and that in serving you and making you happy it makes me happy...and brings me my own pleasure.."
[21:39] <ejaustin> Tatsumi, the military analogy would work better with a feudal model in mind
[21:39] <RobLMntgn> And certain things that are acceptable within that community are not acceptable to the larger community surrounding them.
[21:39] <Corwyn> True Rob
[21:40] <RobLMntgn> And vice versa
[21:40] <Tatsumi> well, we have a feudal model of asorts here:) so i think it does kinda fit)
[21:41] <Tatsumi> :)
[21:41] <ravenshad> Does anyone see slavery as a non-possibility? why?
[21:41] <ejaustin> fuedal armies where bound by common interests and honor... modern armies don't seem to have that to as great an extent
[21:41] <Mlt^jaz> define non-possibility..?
[21:41] <Tatsumi> in legal terms? it's not, but we rarely bother ourselves with what's legal
[21:41] * RobLMntgn disagrees stongly with ej on that one but it's for a different topic.
[21:41] <ejaustin> common interests and honor are essential to relationships as well, including bdsm
[21:41] <Tatsumi> most of WIITWD is not legal:)
[21:41] <Roamer``> agrees with Rob on both counts
[21:41] <ravenshad> True Tats considering most of..nevermind..you said it..LOLOL
[21:42] <RobLMntgn> Ah, most of what we do is counter to established Mores.
[21:42] <Tatsumi> :)
[21:42] <ravenshad> I have found that "honor" is more relied upon in BDSM than outside it..
[21:42] <ravenshad> least, that's been my experience.. :)
[21:42] <RobLMntgn> But it wasn't always illegal.
[21:42] <Roamer``> mine too
[21:42] * RobLMntgn agrees there raven
[21:43] <ravenshad> I think the major problems that come in when discussing BDSM is that so many people define the terms differently..
[21:43] <Corwyn> honor, loyalty, discipline...fine attributes
[21:43] <Mlt^jaz> I find that many dishonor on both counts ravenshad
[21:43] <ravenshad> in many cases, the terms are completely redefined to suit the person's own views..
[21:43] <ravenshad> makes it so hard to discuss anything that way..
[21:43] <ravenshad> I agree Corywn..
[21:43] <Corwyn> but rare
[21:43] <Roamer``> definitely raven
[21:43] <RobLMntgn> Of course. We are in the eyes of society outside the law anyway in most cases.
[21:44] <ravenshad> Yes they do Mlt..but most of my run ins wiht honor in the non BDSM circles have been of the "no honor" variety..
[21:44] <RobLMntgn> But at the same time, we do have within our own loosely confined community certain rules.
[21:44] <RobLMntgn> For example, you don't touch another's property without permission.
[21:44] <ravenshad> You don't try to order a collared sub around without permission (shows disrespect of the collar)
[21:44] <Tatsumi> that's an unspoken 'rule' in BDSM yes
[21:45] <RobLMntgn> Including if that person's property is their slave
[21:45] <Tatsumi> but not all follow it
[21:45] <Tatsumi> mostly they dont know
[21:45] <ravenshad> true Tats..not all follow it..
[21:45] * RobLMntgn agrees with raven there.
[21:45] <Corwyn> Interesting, what role if any does the community have in policing a relationship between individuals?
[21:45] <Tatsumi> and dont mean any disrespect, but are just new
[21:45] <ravenshad> That's a whole nother topic Corwyn.. LOL
[21:45] <RobLMntgn> Ahh, that's not as easy Corwyn.
[21:45] <Tatsumi> hopefully none Corwyn
[21:45] * RobLMntgn agrees there. LOL.
[21:45] <ravenshad> depends on the community..usually, none..
[21:45] * Roamer`` grins (not without defining the terms first anyway Corwyn)
[21:46] <ravenshad> with BDSM being so varied, it would be difficult to come up with any "community" rules
[21:46] <RobLMntgn> Only if the indivdual's relationship afects the community
[21:46] <Mlt^jaz> the only role a community has is consentuallity
[21:46] <Corwyn> Ahhh, I believe it depends on the community for all even the most casual have certain rules
[21:46] <Tatsumi> i dont want anyone <no matter how good their intentions> governing my personal life
[21:46] * ravenshad makes notes for next discussion...
[21:47] <Mlt^jaz> To Me that is the one binding rule set out.
[21:47] <RobLMntgn> Ah,but how about how your personal life affects the community Tats?
[21:47] <ravenshad> OK..we are getting off topic..
[21:47] <ravenshad> why don't we take a break for a few..
[21:47] <Tatsumi> what do you mean Rob?
[21:47] <Tatsumi> ok raven:)
[21:47] <Corwyn> I guess what I am getting at is that the definitions being looked for are variable depending on the larger community, the local community, and the individuals
[21:48] <Tatsumi> i need more coffee anyway:)
[21:48] * RobLMntgn recommends that raven might want to consider this for future topic. LOL
[21:48] <ravenshad> me too Tats.. :)
[21:48] <ravenshad> (I am Rob, next week.."community rules?? fact or fiction"
[21:48] <ravenshad> oh goody..raven the investigative reporter..or would that be As LnR Turns?
[21:49] <RobLMntgn> But on the slave vs submissive issue. Wouldn't the final decision on whether one was a slave or a submissive rest totally with the parties involved?
[21:49] <Tatsumi> yes Rob:)
[21:49] <Roamer``> I agree there Rob
[21:49] <Corwyn> Rob yes
[21:49] <Roamer``> it mostly seems to come doewn to the perceptions involved
[21:49] <RobLMntgn> Then it follows that if that is true, they will set their own rules for each relationship.
[21:50] <RobLMntgn> i.e. What I consider a slave may be considered by another as a submissive.
[21:50] <RobLMntgn> and vice versa
[21:50] <Roamer``> definitely
[21:51] <RobLMntgn> Nice meeting you folks.
[21:53] <ravenshad> I'm not so sure that what one would call submissive another would call slave..for me, there is a single defining line..it comes in with the word "owned"
[21:53] <ravenshad> a sub, is owned only to a point, and sets limits on the ownership of them...
[21:53] <ravenshad> a slave, considers themselves the property of the dominant, and doesn't set limits..
[21:54] <Roamer``> what sort of limits raven ?
[21:55] <ravenshad> they can set limits on types of play allowed..
[21:55] <ravenshad> what the dominant is allowed or is not allowed to do
[21:55] <ravenshad> a slave can't do that..
[21:55] <Soulhuntr> Am I late? :;innocent look::
[21:55] <ravenshad> LOL Yes Sir..you are..but that's ok..I'm forgiving :)
[21:55] <Roamer``> ok, gotcha
[21:55] <Tatsumi> maybe Raven, i know one sub
[21:55] <Roamer``> I was thinking along diferent lines
[21:56] <Tatsumi> even so far as to give her life to him
[21:56] <Tatsumi> yet they both consider her a submissive, not slave
[21:56] <Soulhuntr> So I have been thinking about this.
[21:56] <ravenshad> yes..there are some out there Tats..
[21:56] <Soulhuntr> Perhaps it is the implied length of service?
[21:56] <ravenshad> Have they ever said why Tats?
[21:56] <ravenshad> Hmmmm..good point Soul..could be.. :)
[21:56] <Soulhuntr> Every slave I know is in it for life... with that dominant.
[21:57] <Soulhuntr> Most subs I know will leave if he doesnt live up to his end of it.
[21:57] <Soulhuntr> So perhapse...
[21:57] <Soulhuntr> it is more about the dominants end than the subs?
[21:57] <ravenshad> could be..
[21:57] <Soulhuntr> Are slave more forgiving than subs?
[21:57] <ravenshad> but wouldn't a slave leave if they truly felt they had to?
[21:57] <Roamer``> not necessarily soul
[21:57] <Soulhuntr> Well... "had" too is a different thing.
[21:57] * ravenshad sits back and thinks for a moment..
[21:58] <Soulhuntr> I am thinking in terms of the dominant maintaining a set of standards.
[21:58] <ravenshad> possibly, in some ways, yes a slave may be more forgiving..but I hesitate to say they definitely are..
[21:58] <cheryl{RL> If the Master really hurt the slave, and the slave is not happy with this,,,does that make them a submissive then?
[21:58] <Roamer``> <---missed the point (thanks for clarifying)
[21:58] <Soulhuntr> No , I dont think so cheryl.
[21:59] <ravenshad> No I don't think so cheryl..
[21:59] <Tatsumi> if a sub is not getting all of her desires in life fulfilled by her dom, she is likely to move on. a slave is not
[21:59] <ravenshad> Excellent point Tats!
[22:00] <ravenshad> should a slave be allowed a safeword?
[22:00] <Roamer``> a safeword is a safeword raven
[22:00] <Soulhuntr> Yes, good point tats :)
[22:00] <Roamer``> why should it be "disallowed" ?
[22:00] <Soulhuntr> A slaves "needs" generally revolve around being owned, the ownership itself, more so than the uses that ownership is put to.
[22:00] <Tatsumi> safewords are a comletely different topic:)
[22:00] <ravenshad> gives the slave some form of control Roamer..
[22:01] <ravenshad> yes it is a different topic..but it is actually part of the reason this topic came up for this week.. ;)
[22:01] <Roamer``> you think so raven ?
[22:01] <ravenshad> honestly, for me, yes I think that Roamer..though i realize others don't think that, and that's fine :)
[22:02] <Roamer``> ok raven, i can see that, its another "viewpoint thing"
[22:02] <ravenshad> name something that isn't a viewpoint thing? <giggle>
[22:02] <ravenshad> sorry..I just had to say that..
[22:02] <Roamer``> hmmmmmmm
[22:02] <Tatsumi> lol raven
[22:02] <ravenshad> I know!~
[22:02] <ravenshad> The sky is blue!
[22:03] <Soulhuntr> Basically, I see the motivations somewhat different, but few of the details of the service change between the two.
[22:03] <Roamer``> touche
[22:03] <Soulhuntr> Actually... it's clear :)
[22:03] <ravenshad> motivations?
[22:03] <Roamer``> define blue raven ?
[22:03] <ravenshad> LOLOL Soul
[22:03] <Soulhuntr> The blue is an illusion :)
[22:03] <Tatsumi> Daddy! :)
[22:03] <Roamer``> <----colourblind
[22:03] <ravenshad> ROFLMAO
[22:03] <ravenshad> touche`
[22:03] <ravenshad> ok..I am female..that's not a viewpoint either..it's biological fact.. LOLOL
[22:03] <Roamer``> actually, its black...its just the atmosphrere getting in the way
[22:04] <Roamer``> <-getting off the topic again
[22:04] <ravenshad> sorry..my fault..
[22:04] <ravenshad> What are the motivations, as you see them, for a slave?
[22:05] <Roamer``> isn that the root cause of pur discussion ?
[22:05] <ravenshad> yup.. :)
[22:05] <Roamer``> motivations depend on the people
[22:06] <Roamer``> and (lets be honest) no two people have the same motiations
[22:06] <Roamer``> so there is no simple answer
[22:06] <Soulhuntr> Well, motivations can be divided into broad groups.
[22:06] <ravenshad> Aren't there some driving forces/motivations which are similar among certain groups?
[22:06] <Soulhuntr> Motivations <> reasons
[22:07] <Roamer``> yes there are raven
[22:07] <Soulhuntr> I see slavery/submissions as a grey scale.
[22:07] <Soulhuntr> One can have aspects of both.
[22:07] <Soulhuntr> Slavery - he owns me.
[22:07] <Soulhuntr> Submission - I help him.
[22:07] <Roamer``> but the reason behind the motivations/driving forces care not necessarily the same
[22:08] <Soulhuntr> Actually, I feel that motivations drive reasons.
[22:08] <ravenshad> can a slave see themselves as helping the dominant?
[22:08] <Roamer``> i beleive so yes raven
[22:08] <Roamer``> since (in a broad sense)
[22:08] <Roamer``> the slave/submissive helps defone the Dominant
[22:08] <Roamer``> define even
[22:09] <Tatsumi> define? what do you mean?
[22:09] * ravenshad ponders that..
[22:09] <cinna`> thank you Roamer
[22:09] <ravenshad> I am not sure I define my Master...never thought of it that way..
[22:09] <Roamer``> well any relationship, be it D/s, M/s or even BDSM ...in each case.....the one role defines the other
[22:11] <Roamer``> even in TPE relationships
[22:11] <cinna`> you are soooooooo right Roamer
[22:11] <cheryl{RL> Good Night A/all....was enjoyable...missed you all.
[22:11] <ravenshad> night cheryl :)
[22:11] <Tatsumi> defines the other's role? sure. but not the other person.
[22:11] <cinna`> good night cheryl
[22:11] <ravenshad> ok..I can see how I would define the role..
[22:11] <Roamer``> so, by his/her very choice of "slave" ..the slave has helped define the relationship..hence the Dominant
[22:12] <ravenshad> I see what you mean, I think..
[22:12] <Soulhuntr> Umm... I dont see it :)
[22:12] <ravenshad> a dominant chooses a slave, therefore that choice defines the relationship as M/s not D/s..and dominant as "master" not just a "dom"???
[22:12] <Soulhuntr> I am not defined by those under me, any more than they are defined by me.
[22:12] <Roamer``> appologies, i may not be phrasing it very well
[22:12] <ravenshad> or am I way out in left field..
[22:12] <Soulhuntr> We are insights into each other.
[22:12] <Roamer``> i disagree Soul
[22:13] <Roamer``> because you take responsibility for them, they help to define you.....
[22:13] <Soulhuntr> ::thinks:: no.... I dont see it :) But its ok, we will run with it for now.
[22:14] * ravenshad thinks she's in left feild..pulls out a lounge chair and relaxes..you run Soul, Sir..I'm bushed..
[22:14] * ravenshad will just follow along..
[22:14] <Roamer``> well ok raven.one littel question though.....can a Dominant /master "choose"what isnt freely given ?
[22:14] <Soulhuntr> I dont see dom/sub as being any more inherantly 'mutual' or egalitarian than master/slave.
[22:15] <Soulhuntr> yes :)
[22:15] * ravenshad thinks..
[22:15] <ravenshad> yes Roamer, he can...
[22:15] * cinna` wonders if raven has a headache yet
[22:15] <ravenshad> whether or not he gets it is a different thing though..
[22:16] <cinna`> LOL
[22:16] <Soulhuntr> In many cases, the subs consent or allowance of control is more like a veto than a 'giving"
[22:16] <Roamer``> ROFL
[22:16] <ravenshad> not yet cinna..and the list is currently buttering me up for frying..
[22:16] <ravenshad> a veto?
[22:16] <Soulhuntr> Yes.
[22:16] <ravenshad> as in able to say no..right?
[22:16] <Soulhuntr> ::thinks of an explaination::
[22:17] <Soulhuntr> I know of several subs who would not have 'freely" given themselves to their current doms without having been heavily influenced....
[22:17] <Soulhuntr> in the end, their consent came down to not vetoing the relationship, rather than chosing it.
[22:17] <cinna`> I feel sorry for them
[22:17] * Roamer`` feels sorry for them too
[22:17] <Soulhuntr> ::chuckles:: No need to do so :)
[22:18] <Soulhuntr> They are rather happy :)
[22:18] <ravenshad> I can understand that..
[22:18] <cinna`> OH YES there is a great need to do so
[22:18] * ravenshad has done that..
[22:18] <cinna`> they are just in the intermission
[22:18] <cinna`> and not the show
[22:18] <Soulhuntr> <- is wondering what pre-conceptions he triggered :)
[22:18] <ravenshad> but at some point, wouldn't it become a choice to continue the relationship Soul?
[22:18] <Soulhuntr> Cinna - hardly :)
[22:18] <cinna`> so YOU say
[22:18] <Soulhuntr> It is just a matter of not having seen the potential, or having been too scared to act, or having been caught upo in other things.
[22:19] <Soulhuntr> In at least one case, it was a woman who was seriously 'nilla - or so she thought.
[22:19] <cinna`> so you think it is wise to enter into a relationship with someone who is not paying attention?
[22:19] <Soulhuntr> There is no WAY she would have said "ok, you be my master" to the man involved.
[22:19] <Soulhuntr> cinna - I think we define relationship differently :)
[22:19] <ravenshad> cinna...
[22:20] <Soulhuntr> I am in a 'relationship' with the toll booth collectors :)
[22:20] <ravenshad> if I may..I might be able to explain ...
[22:20] <Soulhuntr> go :)
[22:20] * Roamer`` listens
[22:20] * cinna` isn't so sure
[22:20] * Soulhuntr tags ravenshad in...
[22:20] * ravenshad accepts the tag..
[22:21] <ravenshad> a little to the left next time..<eg>
[22:21] <ravenshad> ok..
[22:21] * cinna` thinks she is being ganged up on and thinks she likes it
[22:21] <Tatsumi> lol cinna:)
[22:21] <Roamer``> ROFL
[22:21] <ravenshad> no cinna..I just think I might be able to explain what he means..in a way you will understand it is all..
[22:21] <ravenshad> it's not being forced..
[22:21] <cinna`> but she is not sure because she isn't really paying attention
[22:22] <ravenshad> when I first started living with Bugs..he was given control over me by Az..
[22:22] <ravenshad> (which was a whole nother issue..but anyway)
[22:22] * ravenshad winks to cinna..no problem
[22:22] <ravenshad> I followed that order because it was given by Az, though not of my "choice"...
[22:22] <ravenshad> at first anyway..
[22:23] <ravenshad> it was not my choice...though eventually it became my choice..
[22:23] <ravenshad> I think Soul is speaking of something similar to that..
[22:23] * cinna` wonders if Bugs (kisses to Bugs) is listening
[22:24] <ravenshad> he is..
[22:24] <cinna`> I know
[22:24] <Roamer``> watching too
[22:24] * ravenshad wouldn't have put it in channel without permission..
[22:24] <ravenshad> The sub didn't see the potential at first, so would not normally have "chosen" that person...
[22:25] <cinna`> if I may interject.........
[22:25] <Soulhuntr> Basically, the point is that there are all sorts of ways and levels to control, and only a few of them need consent.
[22:25] <cinna`> I could tell long before you could that it was inevitable
[22:25] <cinna`> I saw it coming
[22:25] <cinna`> so it was not just Az
[22:26] <ravenshad> I didn't cinna..least not the way it has become..and I struggle with that sometimes..
[22:26] <cinna`> but it was inevitable , raven
[22:26] <cinna`> so the analogy does not work
[22:26] <cinna`> it is an illusion
[22:27] <ravenshad> I didn't see it as inevitable cinna..
[22:28] <ravenshad> but, everyone has differing viewpoints when looking at other's relationships..
[22:28] * ravenshad tags Soul back in
[22:28] <ravenshad> your turn.. :)
[22:28] <cinna`> yes........but it does not mean that any of the views are right
[22:28] <Roamer``> or wrong cinna
[22:28] <Roamer``> just differing is all
[22:28] <cinna`> or wrong
[22:28] * cinna` blows kisses to Roameer
[22:28] <cinna`> Roamer
[22:29] <Roamer``> can you imagine what conversations would be like if we were all the same ?
[22:29] <ravenshad> Good Lord!! BORING!!!
[22:29] <Roamer``> no pint in having them
[22:29] <ravenshad> ummm..have you had a pint tonight Roamer??
[22:29] <Roamer``> i knew you were going to say that raven
[22:29] <Roamer``> at 5:30 am raven ?
[22:30] <Roamer``> no pubs open im afraid
[22:30] <cinna`> no pint?
[22:30] <ravenshad> look at your typing..you said "pint"
[22:30] * ravenshad giggles
[22:30] <Roamer``> <-checked
[22:30] <ravenshad> ok..
[22:30] * cinna` loves a pint now and then
[22:30] <ravenshad> Anyone else want to toss something out?
[22:31] <Soulhuntr> Umm....
[22:31] <Soulhuntr> a business plan :)
[22:31] <Soulhuntr> ::chuckles::
[22:31] * ravenshad giggles
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