Presents:
BDSM Discussion 7
Negotiation
In BDSM
All Comments Posted Here With Permission Of The Participants
[20:12] *
ravenshad says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions
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[20:13] <ravenshad> Tonight's topic is Negotiation in a BDSM relationship...
[20:14] <ravenshad> This discussion will be run the same way the last few were, that being, people can toss out questions, and everyone may offer their response..discussion is always welcome.. :)
[20:14] <ravenshad> What is negotiation?
[20:16] <lil`dragn> talking about experience...limits...things like that
[20:17] <BugsAFK> it means discussing expectation
[20:17] <slavekat> also what would be expected of you as sub or slave
[20:17] <fae{NR}> negotiation is talking about things that you will and will not do before getting close to doing them...
[20:17] <AlstrBlck> or a Master or Mistress, slavekat.
[20:17] <fae{NR}> when both people are thinking clearly (not in passion)
[20:17] <NoirRose> And discussing habits, behaviors...
[20:17] <ravenshad> just expectation Bugs? what about kink compatability?
[20:17] <slavekat> true AlstrBlck
[20:17] * ravenshad nods..
[20:22] <ravenshad> OK..so what things should people remember to discuss that may be forgotten during negotiations?
[20:22] <NoirRose> Definitions of terms
[20:22] <ravenshad> definately NR..and why discuss terms?
[20:22] <lil`dragn> also....not something that can be done in one sitdown type discution.....may take many to cover everyting
[20:23] <ravenshad> true dragn :)
[20:23] <NoirRose> Because if you don't misunderstandings are a real good way to kill a relationship
[20:23] <fae{NR}> also have to discuss levels and comfort zones on what to do
[20:23] <ravenshad> very true.. :)
[20:23] <ravenshad> When should negotiations take place?
[20:24] <fae{NR}> negotiations should take place constantly
[20:24] <slavekat> immediately
[20:24] * NoirRose agrees with fae
[20:24] <ravenshad> I say it should take place before the relationship moves into a comitted one, before any play takes place..and often as the relationship continues
[20:24] <fae{NR}> i say constantly from the beginning of the relationship because often times, during the course of a relationship, both people may change
[20:24] <ravenshad> true fae..
[20:25] * fae{NR} agrees w/ raven in that definately before any play happens *
[20:25] <subdancer> but it is so much fun to have it yanked out by a Dom
[20:25] <ravenshad> yanked out dancer?
[20:25] <fae{NR}> have what yanked out dancer?
[20:26] <fae{NR}> okay...so can negotiation take place _during_ play?
[20:26] <lil`dragn> but what if change goes in different direction on both parts??? do you try to work it out or depart as friends....or just take what you can get???
[20:26] <slavekat> during "play" is the worse time to negotiate
[20:27] <subdancer> okay but does anyone find it a thrill to have the Domme yanked out of them by another Dominant
[20:27] <NoirRose> No.
[20:27] <slavekat> not at all
[20:28] <fae{NR}> as for dragn's question on if ppl change in different directions....i feel that it is something that should be discussed in depth...
[20:29] <subdancer> made to turn from a Dominant state and submit to another Dominate
[20:29] <fae{NR}> in some situations it'd be better to part as friends, in others to try and work it out, and in yet others to do a part time play relationship or non-play relationship, depending onthe situation
[20:29] <NoirRose> That one would really have to depend on the Dom in question.
[20:29] <ravenshad> I say try to work it out..or part as friends..but it would depend upon what the difference was..
[20:30] <fae{NR}> dancer, i would tend to say no, if a person is a Dominant, more often than not, they would get no satisfaction or fulfilment from being forced into submission
[20:30] <NoirRose> If you're not a switch, I would have to say that you probably wouldn't like that...
[20:30] * NoirRose knows that she would react quite violently.
[20:30] <ravenshad> I wouldn't like that dancer..I am not a switch..
[20:31] <NoirRose> I'm not a switch either.
[20:31] <ravenshad> during negotiation I have found that many things often do not get discussed that should..what are some ways to prevent that from happening?
[20:31] <subdancer> well i mean when i get demanding
[20:31] <ravenshad> oh..if I get demanding..my ass gets red..<giggle>
[20:31] <fae{NR}> raven, i'd try (especially in the beginning) to talk about what may happen in play before play begins
[20:31] <lil`dragn> learn from previous negotiations....write down what was missed last time....
[20:32] <fae{NR}> to some, this may take some of the "fun" surprises out, but until both know each other well, it's probably best for the relationship
[20:32] <ravenshad> what about expectations for the future?
[20:32] <lil`dragn> but sometimes....specially with a newbie.....cant talk about what might happen because it is unknown
[20:32] <ravenshad> true dragn..but wouldn't a hypothetical discussion still be helpful?
[20:33] <subdancer> comunication should be a demand at all times
[20:33] <ravenshad> Do you find play lists helpful or a hindrance?
[20:33] <lil`dragn> possibly...but there maybe things in one's past that have been forgotten and might come out during
[20:33] <fae{NR}> dancer, i wouldn't use the term demanded, but necessary instead
[20:34] <lil`dragn> but when something unexpected happens during play....that is the time to stop and talk isn't it???
[20:34] <fae{NR}> raven, depends, what kind of playlists are you talking about?
[20:34] <ravenshad> depends on the situation..the participants may need time to calm down before talking..
[20:34] <slavekat> that would depend entirely on the relationship i would think
[20:34] <ravenshad> those that list things like "flogging, spanking, bondage"..kink stuff
[20:34] <subdancer> if you do not know what you will do if you try a certain kink then explaining what you feel inside when it is brought up gives an idea of what may happen
[20:34] <ravenshad> good point dancer!!
[20:35] <Mongoose> ravenshad: I don't have a no.2
[20:35] <NoirRose> Also, explaining how you might react to something going wrong...
[20:35] <fae{NR}> okay, if something does go wrong in play, how do you go about calming both down and when/how do you talk about it?
[20:35] <ravenshad> for example, someone has never been caned, yet when they hear a description of a caning, they have an emotional response inside..telling what that is can often help figure out what might happen if the caning acutally took place..
[20:35] <subdancer> sometimes you can't talk about it
[20:36] <ravenshad> Depends on what went wrong..if the sub is zoned, he/she has to be brought back first..if in a panic, must be calmed first..
[20:36] <slavekat> sometimes you just don't know what your feeling
[20:36] <ravenshad> true kat..true
[20:36] <NoirRose> How about if something goes wrong with the Dom?
[20:36] <subdancer> or cough dead
[20:36] <lil`dragn> what if you can't find the words...and have to think about it a bit before talking about it???
[20:36] <ravenshad> oh man...that's a good one NR..
[20:37] <slavekat> then i freak out ~smile~
[20:37] <ravenshad> hence the time out to calm down dragn..when a scene goes wrong, it should be discussed more than once..the effects would be diverse I think
[20:37] <NoirRose> And what does the sub do if the Dom freaks out while they're tied up?
[20:37] <ravenshad> hopefully, the sub is able to release themselves..
[20:37] * ejaustin picks a quiet corner
[20:37] <ravenshad> I would guess, if the sub couldn't, they would unfortunately have to wait it out..
[20:38] <fae{NR}> or hopefully the sub will be able to talk the Dom/me calm enough to untie him/her
[20:38] <ravenshad> good point fae!
[20:38] <ravenshad> though I think I would freak
[20:38] <subdancer> get to know your Dom and learn to talk to Him in a calming way
[20:38] <slavekat> i know i would freak, i would not have a clue what to do
[20:38] <lil`dragn> couldn't that turn the sub away from the lifestyle?? and possibly make it to where they couldn't be who they were ment to be????
[20:39] <ravenshad> yes it could dragn..
[20:39] <ravenshad> is it important to discuss one's physical health in detail during negotiations?
[20:39] <fae{NR}> raven, definately
[20:39] <subdancer> so true
[20:39] <NoirRose> Definatly
[20:39] <fae{NR}> add to that psychological health as well...both should know if their partner(s) have any phobias and such
[20:40] <lil`dragn> almost have too....because with the unknown...no matter what it is...can be deadly
[20:40] <ravenshad> yes...or past trauma
[20:40] <ravenshad> what if your health changes while the relationship is new, should your partner be forewarned?
[20:40] <slavekat> definately raven
[20:40] <ravenshad> Also, if you have triggers that you know exist..you should inform your partner of those triggers..
[20:40] <fae{NR}> if health changes at any time during the relationship, it should be made known
[20:40] <slavekat> oh yes, i think the state of health of either party is an extremely important issue
[20:40] * NoirRose nods
[20:41] <lil`dragn> health...physical and mental...should be a constant concern on both parts
[20:41] <ravenshad> Is it important to not exagerate or downplay your experience or expectations?
[20:41] <fae{NR}> and spiritual health as well for people who follow various religions, is very important
[20:41] <ravenshad> yes..true fae :)
[20:42] <fae{NR}> expectations shouldn't be either exagerated or downplayed...experience shouldn't be exagerated, but I don't think much harm would come about if experience is downplayed
[20:42] <lil`dragn> but what if you don't have a "spiritual" guidens....or path....for lack of better workds
[20:42] <lil`dragn> words
[20:43] <fae{NR}> dragn, that's why i said for people of various religions and not everyone
[20:43] <slavekat> is that an area your Dom will guide you in ???
[20:43] <lil`dragn> is that considered and unhealthy speriatal health??
[20:43] <NoirRose> That would depend on the person
[20:43] <fae{NR}> in a lot of play, there can be a lot of symbolic religion, including Judeo-Christian
[20:44] <slavekat> ok, in a "play" situation yes, but what about lifestyle
[20:45] <fae{NR}> lifestyle, both partners should respect each other's religions, and if they're incompatible then they need to either work that out or seriously reconsider the relationship
[20:45] <_mizu_> that is true fae
[20:45] <fae{NR}> i feel strongly that the sub (in most cases) should not have to give up their religion to please the Dom/me
[20:46] <slavekat> well, thats a negotiation point isnt it
[20:46] <fae{NR}> true slavekat, very true
[20:46] <slavekat> in a M/s situation that may very well be at issue
[20:46] <fae{NR}> and in some instances, the contrary to what i say may indeed be what happens
[20:46] <ravenshad> that I have to agree with fae..but I also think that a dominant who knew what they were doing wouldn't force the sub to give up something as important to them as religion
[20:46] <ravenshad> it could be kat
[20:47] <ravenshad> how does negotiation differ in a m/s relationship than a d/s one?
[20:47] <fae{NR}> i fell into the trap of saying what i believe should be and apologise for that...so ammend mine to "my view is..."
[20:47] <slavekat> i feel that in an M/s situation it is more that the Master lays out what is expected and the slave decides can i live this
[20:47] <ravenshad> sounds accurate to me kat..
[20:48] <slavekat> well, its pretty warm in my head right now ~smile~
[20:48] <ravenshad> should a person ever accept the conditions of a M/s relationship if they have any doubt what so ever..or do so thinking "I can get him/her to change" ??
[20:48] <fae{NR}> okay, what if further in the relationship, the Master decides on something else and the slave decides they can't live with it?
[20:48] <slavekat> never accept
[20:48] <slavekat> if you arn't sure don't bare your neck
[20:48] <ravenshad> then they have to discuss release fae..or the slave has to learn to live with it..
[20:49] <ravenshad> is there any negotiation with a m/s relationship?
[20:49] <slavekat> that is coming down to a personal definition of what a slave and Master is
[20:49] <ravenshad> everything comes down to that kind of thing kat.. :)
[20:49] <slavekat> no negotation
[20:49] <slavekat> not in M/s
[20:49] <ravenshad> actually, there is kat..
[20:49] <slavekat> true raven
[20:49] <ravenshad> it just isn't called negotiation.. :)
[20:49] <ravenshad> they call it "getting to know each other"
[20:49] * ravenshad giggles
[20:49] <slavekat> ahhh,
[20:49] <slavekat> hmmm
[20:50] <slavekat> those words sound familiar for some reason ~giggle~
[20:50] <ravenshad> but it comes down to both parties, stating what they are capable of or expecting..and then deciding if they can achieve that with the other person..
[20:50] <slavekat> true
[20:52] <ravenshad> if one is negotiating for a 24/7..what are some things that should be discussed that are often overlooked?
[20:52] <NoirRose> What happens if either of the people get tired of dealing with 24/7 d/s...
[20:52] <_mizu_> who moves where, and exactly what is to be done
[20:52] <BugsAFK> basic day to day things... cooking, cleaning laundry, etc/
[20:53] <ravenshad> money
[20:53] <ravenshad> kids
[20:53] <ravenshad> responsibilities..
[20:53] <ravenshad> then it must be discussed..and honestly decided whether to stop the d/s ..or seperate..
[20:53] <ravenshad> jobs
[20:54] <subdancer> sort of like the *D* word
[20:54] <ravenshad> yeah...sort of
[20:54] <ravenshad> I think one thing that needs to be discussed during negotiation is how important is the power exchange to each participant..and what would be done in the case one calls for a cease to the d/s
[20:56] <ntalia> i don't know that you can necessarily figure that out. when you talk about longterm, committed relationships - there are circumstances that cause things to change either temporarily or permanently.
[20:56] <ntalia> if someone's health situation changed, the power exchange might of necessity change.
[20:57] <ravenshad> this is true talia..
[20:57] <ntalia> or emotionally, one might change or be at a point that they cannot give the same thing.
[20:57] <ravenshad> Do you think that many times people forget about reality when negotiating a bdsm relationship, and expect things to remain static?
[20:57] <ntalia> if you're talking about a committed relationship, you may want to get through the phase or even give something up because of the commitment.
[20:58] <ravenshad> true talia...
[20:58] <subdancer> in some cases you just adjust the game/play
[20:59] <subdancer> if a sub/slave can't stand she sits
[20:59] <ntalia> i think in this day and age where divorce is common, where things are instant and we have an attitude that if something doesn't work, you toss it out and get a new one, i think some people believe things stay perfect.
[20:59] <ntalia> they forget that relationships have ups and downs. require work. and don't stay perfect cause they don't stay static.
[21:00] <_mizu_> or they do not understand what a relationship is
[21:00] <ravenshad> or they underestimate the other's level of comittment
[21:01] <ravenshad> Do negotiations lend themselves to the creation of a contract?
[21:01] <slavekat> in some situations yes raven i would say so
[21:01] <Bugs42`> they can
[21:01] <ntalia> negotiations shouldn't be static either. they should be ongoing throughout relationships.
[21:01] <Bugs42`> I don't like contracts, they seem so set in stone
[21:02] <_mizu_> no, at that point it is not a relationship, if you have to have it on paper, then it is work
[21:02] <ravenshad> what about an m/s relationship talia? does the slave have the right to call for negotiations? or do they have to accept the dominant's edict?
[21:02] <slavekat> realtionships are work aren't they
[21:02] <ravenshad> I agree with Bugs and mizu on that..though, I can see where a contract would be helpful..similar to checklists, tick lists, and such
[21:02] <ravenshad> so long as a contract is revised and discussed often..it would not remain static..
[21:03] <ravenshad> more work than many realize kat..
[21:04] <ravenshad> Do negotiations occur in play partner arrangements or mentoring situations?
[21:04] <Bugs42`> I like checklists and tick lists but I see them as separate
[21:05] <Bugs42`> yes, they do, you need to have the expectations laid out in both of those relationships as well
[21:05] <ravenshad> How do you prevent negotiations/discussions from breaking down?
[21:06] <leendah> i am going to say something at the risk of sounding really dense...but once a relationship reaches a point of real trust and a sub/slave is knows how well their Master reads them or knows them wouldn't negotionations become less nececssary and downright tedious?
[21:06] <slavekat> ahhhh, the hard part, slaves and subs alike have trouble with the all important opening of the mouth thing
[21:06] <Bugs42`> be honest at all times and sometimes you cannot prevent it, but alwaays be willing to give and take
[21:06] <_mizu_> yes leendah, but for the frist year they are needed
[21:06] <ravenshad> they can..yes li..and I think in such a relationship..they wouldn't be negotiations anymore..they would be discussions of the relationship as it stands now..and where it may go..
[21:06] <ravenshad> true kat..they do..
[21:07] <ravenshad> true Bugs.. :)
[21:07] <Bugs42`> I think even though you reach that level of comfort leendah, since things constantly change, you should still negotiate or at least talk
[21:08] <leendah> yes Sir i agree with that but i like to think that there is some spontainaity
[21:08] <subdancer> communication stands up there with consentual
[21:08] <_mizu_> it is more talk than negotiate Sir
[21:09] <Bugs42`> I agree mizu, I put negotiate in intsances where it may be called for, a "pinch point" if you will
[21:09] <ravenshad> I agree dancer..
[21:10] <_mizu_> after the first year, it just kinda fit's together, the only time would be if something new came into the relationship
[21:10] <ravenshad> like sharing your partner, a new activity for both parties, something that was a limit for the sub before but became an "I'm willing to try it" type thing..you mean Bugs??
[21:11] <ravenshad> as for spontaneity..I don't think discussions or negotiation ruin spontaneity of a scene or relationship...
[21:11] <Bugs42`> yes raven, and egereious situation that is not talked but better negotiated instead of fumed over
[21:11] <ravenshad> wouldn't what happens, when it happens, and how it happens still be in the dom's hands?
[21:11] <ravenshad> ummmm...egereious??? (sorry..I can't think tonight)
[21:12] <Bugs42`> outrageous, extreme
[21:12] <ravenshad> thanks Bugs.. :)
[21:12] <slavekat> ty Bugs Sir :) i had trouble with that one too
[21:12] <ravenshad> I agree with that..anything extreme should at the very least be discussed before being done..
[21:14] <leendah> i agree on the extreme raven...plus something which sounds extreme without discussion when explained may not be at all
[21:14] <ravenshad> if I do not receive an email requesting anonymity, I will assume that is giving me permission to use the logs as they appear, with nicks intact
[21:14] <ravenshad> true li..
[21:15] <ravenshad> How important is compatability in the area of play?
[21:15] <leendah> compatability how/
[21:15] <leendah> ?
[21:15] <slavekat> play also has many levels doesn't it
[21:16] <ravenshad> both people like the same kinds and level/intensity of play..and should it be extensively discussed?
[21:16] <ravenshad> yes it does kat..
[21:16] <NoirRose> Very
[21:16] <NoirRose> Yes, it should
[21:16] <leendah> very important...
[21:16] <ravenshad> I agree NR and li.. :)
[21:17] <Bugs42`> I don;t see compatability in play as that importanat as long as limits are respected
[21:17] <ravenshad> Then, would it be logical, for people to decide what are types of play they would prefer not to live without, and which ones are "negotiable"?
[21:17] <leendah> but i think there may be exceptions, not glaring ones
[21:17] <ravenshad> Wouldn't it cause trouble Bugs, Sir..if you liked, say, cutting..and your partner detests it?
[21:18] <LAR^> There is an excellent check list in screw the roses for that
[21:18] <Bugs42`> no, not as long as limits were discussed and respected
[21:18] <NoirRose> Bug: What if one partner prefers pain play, and the other just likes simple bondage?
[21:18] <ravenshad> yes..but it's missing a few items Lar
[21:18] <LAR^> My pet and I have certain differences in our play preferences, yet we found a lot of common ground as well
[21:18] <Bugs42`> and I see play as not necessarrily in a relationship
[21:18] <NoirRose> I would have to say that compatiblity in play would be extremely important
[21:19] <lil`dragn> sorry y'all for being so quiet....but I must go now....see about finding that darn SandMan who seems to be avoiding me here lately
[21:19] <ravenshad> NR, I'd say there is a problem then..though I doubt a sadist or masochist would want to partner themselves with someone who did not like those activities
[21:19] <Bugs42`> in that case NR if you are willing to play, but that different, take turns from time to time
[21:19] <leendah> Noirrose i think that would be negotiable...pain play or/and simple bondage
[21:19] <NoirRose> Well, for an analogy, wouldn't that be fairly similar to a gay man married to a gay woman?
[21:21] <ravenshad> How does one get a sub to overcome their fear of speaking up during negotiations? and could that fear severely hamper negotiations?
[21:21] * fae{NR} would also pose the same question for Dom/mes *
[21:22] <NoirRose> Yes, it could...
[21:22] <ravenshad> yes it does go both ways fae..though I think it hampers subs more since so many think they shouldn't speak up because they are sub..
[21:22] <_mizu_> i never had a fear of saying what thing's i considered to far for me
[21:22] <ravenshad> good for you mizu.. :)
[21:23] <Bugs42`> I could say beat it out of them, but I doubt that would work... set up a signal or a "free" time
[21:23] <ravenshad> free time?
[21:23] * ravenshad plays dummy
[21:23] <leendah> limited experience here but i have found that some Doms draw me out first and make me comfortable with everything I desire then slowly start introduceing netotiation
[21:24] <ravenshad> draw you out how Li?
[21:24] <Bugs42`> free time, outside of roles or perhaps even a journal that is off limits or non punishable
[21:24] <leendah> by providing an extreme comfort zone in talking....
[21:25] <LAR^> leendah, that certainly works well in play. But, when my elle first offered me her full submission, we spent quite a bit of time discussing and negotiating her rules. With the understanding that this is an ongoing process
[21:25] <leendah> nothing i say will dissapoint them
[21:25] <ravenshad> good point Bugs Sir.. :)
[21:25] <leendah> they want to know everything
[21:25] <ravenshad> ok..does that talking include things like play, expectations, responsibilities, limits Li?
[21:25] <leendah> and invite and encourage every last thought or fantasy
[21:25] <ravenshad> what if the sub doesn't want to set any limits? or finds that their limits no longer exist with that dominant?
[21:26] <leendah> a little at a time but i am also talking from a perspective of not wanting to scare me off maybe
[21:26] <ravenshad> possibly..sounds like that kind of discussion falls under negotiation..
[21:26] <ravenshad> negotiation, hardly becomes something formal for most people..it's a matter of openly talking about the relationship and BDSM in general, and specifically how it applies to you that takes place...
[21:27] <leendah> other things they can say can be reasurring such as one that I loved was If this *example * ever happened I would have failed in my duties
[21:28] <ravenshad> that can be helpful..to know what the dominant considers to be a "failure' on the sub's part..
[21:28] <Bugs42`> if limits are unknown, then everything must be taken slowly
[21:28] <leendah> no he was discussing what he took seriously as his duties
[21:28] <leendah> but the opposite would be true as well
[21:29] <leendah> but for a Dom to outline what they themselves thinks crosses the line or would be a mistake in judgement makes me feel safer in their hands
[21:29] * NoirRose nods at leen
[21:31] <Bugs42`> agreed, the boundaries must be well drawn, so everyone knows what not to cross
[21:32] <AlstrBlck> But aren't boundries meant to be met and expanded?
[21:32] <leendah> also the semantics are important i think. When breath play was first brought up to me I thought they meant they wanted to smother me...
[21:32] <Mongoose> AlstrBlck: you can't put your head through a cieling ;)
[21:33] <AlstrBlck> Mongoose: Want to bet?
[21:33] <leendah> then when it was explained as a couple of seconds to reinforce control, well that was another matter <g>
[21:33] <ntalia> no Mongoose sir, but the ceiling is not always where we first think it is.
[21:33] <ntalia> and sometimes it does change.
[21:33] <Mongoose> AlstrBlck: hehe
[21:33] <slavekat> and the ceiling may be an illusion in the first place
[21:34] <Mongoose> talia: I start at '1. snuff play is right out'
[21:34] <Mongoose> talia: I see ceiling and limit as different things
[21:34] <leendah> do you mean "Out right?" Sir?
[21:35] <Bugs42`> I agree it is semantics and that is indeed something that should be discussed
[21:35] <Mongoose> leendah: no right out, like not ever permitted
[21:35] <leendah> that is what i thought. thank you
[21:36] <ravenshad> ok..so is it safe to say that someone should have a good idea of what they are interested in or at leat willing to try before entering into a BDSM relationship?
[21:36] <Mongoose> talia: some people never want to cross the multilation due to religious beliefs
[21:36] <Mongoose> talia: that come also be a 'cieling'...
[21:37] * ravenshad peers down her jammie at her nipples..gasps..OHMY I've been mutilated..<JOKE>
[21:37] <_mizu_> yes raven, that prevents alot of problems
[21:37] <ravenshad> Mongoose..what do you mean by ceiling?
[21:37] <Mongoose> ravenshad: heheh
[21:37] <AlstrBlck> Good example, raven!
[21:37] * ntalia nods. yes, but what is a ceiling today, may not be tomorrow.
[21:37] * slavekat giggles wildly at raven
[21:37] <ravenshad> is not mutiliation in the eye of the beholder?
[21:37] <ravenshad> I mean, to some peircing my nipples for master is mutilating my body..but not to me..
[21:38] <Mongoose> ravenshad: I consider mutilation like dismemberment
[21:38] <ravenshad> Ahhh...ok :)
[21:38] <ravenshad> well yeah..I think I'd consider dismemberment to be mutilation as well.. :)
[21:38] <AlstrBlck> But piercing is mutilation. It makes a hole in the body, moves flesh and meat, and leaves permanent scars.
[21:38] <ravenshad> Do you think that all the variances in definitions for terms, makes negotiation more difficult?
[21:39] <ravenshad> yeah..used to be a limit for me AB...<giggle> not anymore!
[21:39] <NoirRose> Well, that should be a part of the negotiation process, a mutual definition of terms
[21:39] <slavekat> what if the slave says she has not limits
[21:39] <_mizu_> yes raven, the vocabulary is a mess
[21:39] <Mongoose> perhaps it's also a good idea to only discuss thing that a sub has, can, and might do...
[21:40] <AlstrBlck> Everyone has limits, even if they say they don't. They just don't realize it.
[21:40] <ravenshad> DO you think that maybe it is time to stop redefining every term to fit "our" relationships just because we like the way it sounds?
[21:40] <Mongoose> that way you avoid the infinite 'limits'...
[21:40] <ntalia> i think the limits change. a women who hasn't had children but plans to, may not be comfortable in having nipples pierced.
[21:40] <slavekat> i do raven
[21:40] * NoirRose nods
[21:40] <ntalia> but after having children, after having nursed them... maybe it's okay.
[21:41] <ravenshad> I agree talia..
[21:41] <Bugs42`> tattoos are another form of mutilation
[21:41] <ravenshad> Though..from my understanding, peircing doesn't interfere with nursing..as the ducts heal around the peircing hole..so no you don't get milk shooting out the sides..
[21:41] <Mongoose> it's harder to rule out things than to agree on types of permited play
[21:42] <ntalia> yes, but there is a risk involvedd.
[21:42] <ravenshad> true there is talia..blocked ducts and all that
[21:42] <ravenshad> gee..and I just veered to the left.. :)
[21:42] <ravenshad> Is the discussion of a safeword something that should be included in negotiation, or handled seperately?
[21:43] <Bugs42`> I think it should be up front and immediate
[21:43] <_mizu_> best to do it before the negotiation
[21:43] <AlstrBlck> I bring it up immediately, before anything starts.
[21:44] <ravenshad> Does a sub have the right to demand a safeword?
[21:44] <_mizu_> yes
[21:44] <slavekat> yes a sub does
[21:44] <AlstrBlck> If she/he doesn't have that right, then how does one know that they are a willing party?
[21:44] <ntalia> i think in the course of negotiations, a sub has the right to demand anything then need.
[21:45] <Bugs42`> a sub does, a slave does not
[21:45] <ravenshad> possibly by them saying something like "whip me, beat me, hurt me, make me write bad checks..just don't mess up my hair"...or seriously, saying, sure..let's play!
[21:45] <ntalia> once the negotiations are done or that round is done, a sub needs to be willing to accept what they negotiated.
[21:45] * slavekat nods at Bugs
[21:45] <ravenshad> if a sub has the right to demand whatever they need, are they in fact submitting?
[21:46] <fae{NR}> yes, if it's an actual need...no if it's only a want/desire
[21:46] <ravenshad> agreed talia..a sub must be willing to accept what they negotiated...
[21:46] <Bugs42`> in the beginning that is the safest way, submit partially
[21:46] <ravenshad> agreed fae.. :)
[21:46] <ravenshad> why isn't a slave allowed a safeword Bugs Sir?
[21:47] <Bugs42`> a slave has no rights, no limits
[21:47] <ravenshad> true...so is it safe to say that one should be careful before labeling themselves a slave?
[21:47] * slavekat agrees wholeheartedly with Bugs
[21:48] <Bugs42`> most definitely!!!!
[21:48] * dekatia pulls on her hipboots...
[21:48] <AlstrBlck> so if a Master wanted to brand a slave, or, to extremes, cut off their nipples, they'd have no say in the matter?
[21:48] <ravenshad> dekatia...hip boots?
[21:48] <slavekat> exactly AB
[21:48] <ravenshad> I have to agree that one should be careful labeling themselves a slave
[21:48] <dekatia> yes, it's getting deep in here...no rights, no limits
[21:49] <Bugs42`> not if they were a slave... they gave up that right
[21:49] <ravenshad> actually kat, for those in M/s the answer to AB is..YES..correct
[21:49] <ravenshad> hence, be careful before you take a collar in an M/s relationship
[21:49] <ravenshad> they are different than D/s..very different
[21:49] <slavekat> YES very very raven, thank you
[21:50] <dekatia> apparently r/l relationships differ from those who type one-handedly about M/s and D/s on the net, too
[21:50] <ravenshad> dekatia...not really..
[21:50] <Bugs42`> why do you say that?
[21:50] <ravenshad> I live a 24/7 relationship..I am slave..by my definition..
[21:50] <ravenshad> which means..I am the property of my master..in all areas..it's up to him what happens, and I like it that way..
[21:51] <dekatia> i'm tired of these ppl who think that have this my way or the highway attitude...there are many different styles of d/s relationships, not just one true form
[21:51] <subdancer> night mizu
[21:51] <ravenshad> No one said there was one true form dekatia..
[21:51] <slavekat> agreed dekatia
[21:52] <dekatia> you are speaking about opinions as if they are absolutes
[21:52] <ravenshad> I am speaking of other's realities that are indeed absolutes to them...
[21:52] <slavekat> not at all, that was not my intention, my definition of slave is mine about myself
[21:52] <Bugs42`> nope, just from my perspective....
[21:53] <ravenshad> there are quite a few who believe a slave has no rights..so it is important that one be careful what they term themselves and who they use the term with..or one could end up in a world of hurt..
[21:53] <slavekat> when one is faced with a Master that says "I will allow you no limits, no safewords for you slave" that is reality
[21:53] <ravenshad> hence, the statement earlier, that discussing one's definitions of the terms is extremely important to negotiation..
[21:54] <Bugs42`> that is one of the reasons we have these discussions, to show the differences and especially why negotiation is important
[21:54] <dekatia> sounds like an awfully short form of negotiation...one that would leave me running the other direction....
[21:55] <slavekat> that is an option for you, and me as well, that is why the need for negotiation
[21:55] <Bugs42`> and that would be best if that is how you felt rather than getting involved and then finding out
[21:55] <ravenshad> you missed a lot of that discussion earlier dekatia...where it was said that in m/s the participants must be very careful to discuss their expectations and compatability and not accept a collar they can't live up to..or accept a collar thinking they can make the dominant change his/her mind
[21:55] <AlstrBlck> deka, I'm sure you'll find some of us are flexible, and not as rigid as you seem to think.
[21:56] <dekatia> we've spoken before Astr :)
[21:56] <AlstrBlck> we have?
[21:57] * AlstrBlck shakes the pea masquerading as his brain....
[21:57] <dekatia> *sigh* yes...girls, how quickly they forget, huh?
[21:57] <ravenshad> since it has now been raised...are there any special considerations in negotiating a cyber relationship into real life?
[21:57] <slavekat> oh good one raven thank you ~sigh~
[21:57] <fae{NR}> it will be important to discuss if there are things that a person won't do in r/l that they will in cyber
[21:57] <ravenshad> excellent point fae.. :)
[21:58] <ravenshad> I think when taking a relationship from cyber to real life, it becomes extremely important to discuss reality..day to day things...
[22:00] <ravenshad> how about..moods? emotional changes that may occur from time to time..
[22:00] * slavekat is waiting for divine guidance on this subject
[22:01] <ravenshad> or PMS...(which does happen to men too yanno!)
[22:01] <ravenshad> LOL kat
[22:01] <slavekat> i've heard
[22:01] <ravenshad> I've seen.. LOLOL
[22:01] <ravenshad> is it important to discuss those things when negotiation from cyber to reality?
[22:02] <AlstrBlck> oh yeah, emotional changes... Like I don't know THAT subject...
[22:02] <slavekat> ofcourse it is
[22:02] <slavekat> its easy to forget the reality of it when its all in your heart
[22:03] <ravenshad> yes
[22:03] <slavekat> its a good idea to tell the sub/slave if you expect your underwear folded in thirds andplaced just so
[22:04] <ravenshad> Yanno kat, some people would call that obsessing over discussing things, but I agree with you..often it is the little things that no one foresaw or brought up, that cause the most problems..
22:04] <ravenshad> like..he never rinses his whiskers out of the sink..or she snores real loud
[22:04] <slavekat> exactly, i know i appreciate that ....i mean, i need to know what i will be livign with
[22:05] <ravenshad> well, all..it's 10 PM here..any questions or comments before we wrap this up for the night?
[22:06] <ravenshad> I have one..should negotiation be as extensive in an online only relationship?
[22:06] <ravenshad> or does it really not matter that much, since there isn't any actual physical touching?
[22:06] <Bugs42`> yes, what I think and live is only me... I hope everyone else finds what fits them, no matter what the beliefs or terminology
[22:07] <ravenshad> Well said and I agree Bugs Sir.. :)
[22:08] <ravenshad> My thanks to all of you for another sucessful discussion, your participation is greatly appreciated.. :)
[20:12] <ravenshad> you must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave
[20:12] <ravenshad> legal age being at least 18..
[20:12] <ravenshad> no trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night
[20:12] <ravenshad> trolling is advertising for a partner..or harrasing someone in the channel into being your partner be it r/l or cybersex
[20:12] <ravenshad> be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[20:13] <ravenshad> all statements are publishable on the web site, with nicks changed (at your request, email webmaster@leathernroses.com if you don't want your nick used.
[20:13] <ravenshad> if I receive no email, I will assume that all nicks may remain as shown in the logs, by not sending email, you are authorizing my use of the logs on my web site..
[20:13] <ravenshad> Tonight's topic is Negotiation in a BDSM relationship...
[20:14] <ravenshad> This discussion will be run the same way the last few were, that being, people can toss out questions, and everyone may offer their response..discussion is always welcome.. :)
[20:14] <ravenshad> What is negotiation?
[20:16] <lil`dragn> talking about experience...limits...things like that
[20:17] <BugsAFK> it means discussing expectation
[20:17] <slavekat> also what would be expected of you as sub or slave
[20:17] <fae{NR}> negotiation is talking about things that you will and will not do before getting close to doing them...
[20:17] <AlstrBlck> or a Master or Mistress, slavekat.
[20:17] <fae{NR}> when both people are thinking clearly (not in passion)
[20:17] <NoirRose> And discussing habits, behaviors...
[20:17] <ravenshad> just expectation Bugs? what about kink compatability?
[20:17] <slavekat> true AlstrBlck
[20:17] * ravenshad nods..
[20:22] <ravenshad> OK..so what things should people remember to discuss that may be forgotten during negotiations?
[20:22] <NoirRose> Definitions of terms
[20:22] <ravenshad> definately NR..and why discuss terms?
[20:22] <lil`dragn> also....not something that can be done in one sitdown type discution.....may take many to cover everyting
[20:23] <ravenshad> true dragn :)
[20:23] <NoirRose> Because if you don't misunderstandings are a real good way to kill a relationship
[20:23] <fae{NR}> also have to discuss levels and comfort zones on what to do
[20:23] <ravenshad> very true.. :)
[20:23] <ravenshad> When should negotiations take place?
[20:24] <fae{NR}> negotiations should take place constantly
[20:24] <slavekat> immediately
[20:24] * NoirRose agrees with fae
[20:24] <ravenshad> I say it should take place before the relationship moves into a comitted one, before any play takes place..and often as the relationship continues
[20:24] <fae{NR}> i say constantly from the beginning of the relationship because often times, during the course of a relationship, both people may change
[20:24] <ravenshad> true fae..
[20:25] * fae{NR} agrees w/ raven in that definately before any play happens *
[20:25] <subdancer> but it is so much fun to have it yanked out by a Dom
[20:25] <ravenshad> yanked out dancer?
[20:25] <fae{NR}> have what yanked out dancer?
[20:26] <fae{NR}> okay...so can negotiation take place _during_ play?
[20:26] <lil`dragn> but what if change goes in different direction on both parts??? do you try to work it out or depart as friends....or just take what you can get???
[20:26] <slavekat> during "play" is the worse time to negotiate
[20:27] <subdancer> okay but does anyone find it a thrill to have the Domme yanked out of them by another Dominant
[20:27] <NoirRose> No.
[20:27] <slavekat> not at all
[20:28] <fae{NR}> as for dragn's question on if ppl change in different directions....i feel that it is something that should be discussed in depth...
[20:29] <subdancer> made to turn from a Dominant state and submit to another Dominate
[20:29] <fae{NR}> in some situations it'd be better to part as friends, in others to try and work it out, and in yet others to do a part time play relationship or non-play relationship, depending onthe situation
[20:29] <NoirRose> That one would really have to depend on the Dom in question.
[20:29] <ravenshad> I say try to work it out..or part as friends..but it would depend upon what the difference was..
[20:30] <fae{NR}> dancer, i would tend to say no, if a person is a Dominant, more often than not, they would get no satisfaction or fulfilment from being forced into submission
[20:30] <NoirRose> If you're not a switch, I would have to say that you probably wouldn't like that...
[20:30] * NoirRose knows that she would react quite violently.
[20:30] <ravenshad> I wouldn't like that dancer..I am not a switch..
[20:31] <NoirRose> I'm not a switch either.
[20:31] <ravenshad> during negotiation I have found that many things often do not get discussed that should..what are some ways to prevent that from happening?
[20:31] <subdancer> well i mean when i get demanding
[20:31] <ravenshad> oh..if I get demanding..my ass gets red..<giggle>
[20:31] <fae{NR}> raven, i'd try (especially in the beginning) to talk about what may happen in play before play begins
[20:31] <lil`dragn> learn from previous negotiations....write down what was missed last time....
[20:32] <fae{NR}> to some, this may take some of the "fun" surprises out, but until both know each other well, it's probably best for the relationship
[20:32] <ravenshad> what about expectations for the future?
[20:32] <lil`dragn> but sometimes....specially with a newbie.....cant talk about what might happen because it is unknown
[20:32] <ravenshad> true dragn..but wouldn't a hypothetical discussion still be helpful?
[20:33] <subdancer> comunication should be a demand at all times
[20:33] <ravenshad> Do you find play lists helpful or a hindrance?
[20:33] <lil`dragn> possibly...but there maybe things in one's past that have been forgotten and might come out during
[20:33] <fae{NR}> dancer, i wouldn't use the term demanded, but necessary instead
[20:34] <lil`dragn> but when something unexpected happens during play....that is the time to stop and talk isn't it???
[20:34] <fae{NR}> raven, depends, what kind of playlists are you talking about?
[20:34] <ravenshad> depends on the situation..the participants may need time to calm down before talking..
[20:34] <slavekat> that would depend entirely on the relationship i would think
[20:34] <ravenshad> those that list things like "flogging, spanking, bondage"..kink stuff
[20:34] <subdancer> if you do not know what you will do if you try a certain kink then explaining what you feel inside when it is brought up gives an idea of what may happen
[20:34] <ravenshad> good point dancer!!
[20:35] <Mongoose> ravenshad: I don't have a no.2
[20:35] <NoirRose> Also, explaining how you might react to something going wrong...
[20:35] <fae{NR}> okay, if something does go wrong in play, how do you go about calming both down and when/how do you talk about it?
[20:35] <ravenshad> for example, someone has never been caned, yet when they hear a description of a caning, they have an emotional response inside..telling what that is can often help figure out what might happen if the caning acutally took place..
[20:35] <subdancer> sometimes you can't talk about it
[20:36] <ravenshad> Depends on what went wrong..if the sub is zoned, he/she has to be brought back first..if in a panic, must be calmed first..
[20:36] <slavekat> sometimes you just don't know what your feeling
[20:36] <ravenshad> true kat..true
[20:36] <NoirRose> How about if something goes wrong with the Dom?
[20:36] <subdancer> or cough dead
[20:36] <lil`dragn> what if you can't find the words...and have to think about it a bit before talking about it???
[20:36] <ravenshad> oh man...that's a good one NR..
[20:37] <slavekat> then i freak out ~smile~
[20:37] <ravenshad> hence the time out to calm down dragn..when a scene goes wrong, it should be discussed more than once..the effects would be diverse I think
[20:37] <NoirRose> And what does the sub do if the Dom freaks out while they're tied up?
[20:37] <ravenshad> hopefully, the sub is able to release themselves..
[20:37] * ejaustin picks a quiet corner
[20:37] <ravenshad> I would guess, if the sub couldn't, they would unfortunately have to wait it out..
[20:38] <fae{NR}> or hopefully the sub will be able to talk the Dom/me calm enough to untie him/her
[20:38] <ravenshad> good point fae!
[20:38] <ravenshad> though I think I would freak
[20:38] <subdancer> get to know your Dom and learn to talk to Him in a calming way
[20:38] <slavekat> i know i would freak, i would not have a clue what to do
[20:38] <lil`dragn> couldn't that turn the sub away from the lifestyle?? and possibly make it to where they couldn't be who they were ment to be????
[20:39] <ravenshad> yes it could dragn..
[20:39] <ravenshad> is it important to discuss one's physical health in detail during negotiations?
[20:39] <fae{NR}> raven, definately
[20:39] <subdancer> so true
[20:39] <NoirRose> Definatly
[20:39] <fae{NR}> add to that psychological health as well...both should know if their partner(s) have any phobias and such
[20:40] <lil`dragn> almost have too....because with the unknown...no matter what it is...can be deadly
[20:40] <ravenshad> yes...or past trauma
[20:40] <ravenshad> what if your health changes while the relationship is new, should your partner be forewarned?
[20:40] <slavekat> definately raven
[20:40] <ravenshad> Also, if you have triggers that you know exist..you should inform your partner of those triggers..
[20:40] <fae{NR}> if health changes at any time during the relationship, it should be made known
[20:40] <slavekat> oh yes, i think the state of health of either party is an extremely important issue
[20:40] * NoirRose nods
[20:41] <lil`dragn> health...physical and mental...should be a constant concern on both parts
[20:41] <ravenshad> Is it important to not exagerate or downplay your experience or expectations?
[20:41] <fae{NR}> and spiritual health as well for people who follow various religions, is very important
[20:41] <ravenshad> yes..true fae :)
[20:42] <fae{NR}> expectations shouldn't be either exagerated or downplayed...experience shouldn't be exagerated, but I don't think much harm would come about if experience is downplayed
[20:42] <lil`dragn> but what if you don't have a "spiritual" guidens....or path....for lack of better workds
[20:42] <lil`dragn> words
[20:43] <fae{NR}> dragn, that's why i said for people of various religions and not everyone
[20:43] <slavekat> is that an area your Dom will guide you in ???
[20:43] <lil`dragn> is that considered and unhealthy speriatal health??
[20:43] <NoirRose> That would depend on the person
[20:43] <fae{NR}> in a lot of play, there can be a lot of symbolic religion, including Judeo-Christian
[20:44] <slavekat> ok, in a "play" situation yes, but what about lifestyle
[20:45] <fae{NR}> lifestyle, both partners should respect each other's religions, and if they're incompatible then they need to either work that out or seriously reconsider the relationship
[20:45] <_mizu_> that is true fae
[20:45] <fae{NR}> i feel strongly that the sub (in most cases) should not have to give up their religion to please the Dom/me
[20:46] <slavekat> well, thats a negotiation point isnt it
[20:46] <fae{NR}> true slavekat, very true
[20:46] <slavekat> in a M/s situation that may very well be at issue
[20:46] <fae{NR}> and in some instances, the contrary to what i say may indeed be what happens
[20:46] <ravenshad> that I have to agree with fae..but I also think that a dominant who knew what they were doing wouldn't force the sub to give up something as important to them as religion
[20:46] <ravenshad> it could be kat
[20:47] <ravenshad> how does negotiation differ in a m/s relationship than a d/s one?
[20:47] <fae{NR}> i fell into the trap of saying what i believe should be and apologise for that...so ammend mine to "my view is..."
[20:47] <slavekat> i feel that in an M/s situation it is more that the Master lays out what is expected and the slave decides can i live this
[20:47] <ravenshad> sounds accurate to me kat..
[20:48] <slavekat> well, its pretty warm in my head right now ~smile~
[20:48] <ravenshad> should a person ever accept the conditions of a M/s relationship if they have any doubt what so ever..or do so thinking "I can get him/her to change" ??
[20:48] <fae{NR}> okay, what if further in the relationship, the Master decides on something else and the slave decides they can't live with it?
[20:48] <slavekat> never accept
[20:48] <slavekat> if you arn't sure don't bare your neck
[20:48] <ravenshad> then they have to discuss release fae..or the slave has to learn to live with it..
[20:49] <ravenshad> is there any negotiation with a m/s relationship?
[20:49] <slavekat> that is coming down to a personal definition of what a slave and Master is
[20:49] <ravenshad> everything comes down to that kind of thing kat.. :)
[20:49] <slavekat> no negotation
[20:49] <slavekat> not in M/s
[20:49] <ravenshad> actually, there is kat..
[20:49] <slavekat> true raven
[20:49] <ravenshad> it just isn't called negotiation.. :)
[20:49] <ravenshad> they call it "getting to know each other"
[20:49] * ravenshad giggles
[20:49] <slavekat> ahhh,
[20:49] <slavekat> hmmm
[20:50] <slavekat> those words sound familiar for some reason ~giggle~
[20:50] <ravenshad> but it comes down to both parties, stating what they are capable of or expecting..and then deciding if they can achieve that with the other person..
[20:50] <slavekat> true
[20:52] <ravenshad> if one is negotiating for a 24/7..what are some things that should be discussed that are often overlooked?
[20:52] <NoirRose> What happens if either of the people get tired of dealing with 24/7 d/s...
[20:52] <_mizu_> who moves where, and exactly what is to be done
[20:52] <BugsAFK> basic day to day things... cooking, cleaning laundry, etc/
[20:53] <ravenshad> money
[20:53] <ravenshad> kids
[20:53] <ravenshad> responsibilities..
[20:53] <ravenshad> then it must be discussed..and honestly decided whether to stop the d/s ..or seperate..
[20:53] <ravenshad> jobs
[20:54] <subdancer> sort of like the *D* word
[20:54] <ravenshad> yeah...sort of
[20:54] <ravenshad> I think one thing that needs to be discussed during negotiation is how important is the power exchange to each participant..and what would be done in the case one calls for a cease to the d/s
[20:56] <ntalia> i don't know that you can necessarily figure that out. when you talk about longterm, committed relationships - there are circumstances that cause things to change either temporarily or permanently.
[20:56] <ntalia> if someone's health situation changed, the power exchange might of necessity change.
[20:57] <ravenshad> this is true talia..
[20:57] <ntalia> or emotionally, one might change or be at a point that they cannot give the same thing.
[20:57] <ravenshad> Do you think that many times people forget about reality when negotiating a bdsm relationship, and expect things to remain static?
[20:57] <ntalia> if you're talking about a committed relationship, you may want to get through the phase or even give something up because of the commitment.
[20:58] <ravenshad> true talia...
[20:58] <subdancer> in some cases you just adjust the game/play
[20:59] <subdancer> if a sub/slave can't stand she sits
[20:59] <ntalia> i think in this day and age where divorce is common, where things are instant and we have an attitude that if something doesn't work, you toss it out and get a new one, i think some people believe things stay perfect.
[20:59] <ntalia> they forget that relationships have ups and downs. require work. and don't stay perfect cause they don't stay static.
[21:00] <_mizu_> or they do not understand what a relationship is
[21:00] <ravenshad> or they underestimate the other's level of comittment
[21:01] <ravenshad> Do negotiations lend themselves to the creation of a contract?
[21:01] <slavekat> in some situations yes raven i would say so
[21:01] <Bugs42`> they can
[21:01] <ntalia> negotiations shouldn't be static either. they should be ongoing throughout relationships.
[21:01] <Bugs42`> I don't like contracts, they seem so set in stone
[21:02] <_mizu_> no, at that point it is not a relationship, if you have to have it on paper, then it is work
[21:02] <ravenshad> what about an m/s relationship talia? does the slave have the right to call for negotiations? or do they have to accept the dominant's edict?
[21:02] <slavekat> realtionships are work aren't they
[21:02] <ravenshad> I agree with Bugs and mizu on that..though, I can see where a contract would be helpful..similar to checklists, tick lists, and such
[21:02] <ravenshad> so long as a contract is revised and discussed often..it would not remain static..
[21:03] <ravenshad> more work than many realize kat..
[21:04] <ravenshad> Do negotiations occur in play partner arrangements or mentoring situations?
[21:04] <Bugs42`> I like checklists and tick lists but I see them as separate
[21:05] <Bugs42`> yes, they do, you need to have the expectations laid out in both of those relationships as well
[21:05] <ravenshad> How do you prevent negotiations/discussions from breaking down?
[21:06] <leendah> i am going to say something at the risk of sounding really dense...but once a relationship reaches a point of real trust and a sub/slave is knows how well their Master reads them or knows them wouldn't negotionations become less nececssary and downright tedious?
[21:06] <slavekat> ahhhh, the hard part, slaves and subs alike have trouble with the all important opening of the mouth thing
[21:06] <Bugs42`> be honest at all times and sometimes you cannot prevent it, but alwaays be willing to give and take
[21:06] <_mizu_> yes leendah, but for the frist year they are needed
[21:06] <ravenshad> they can..yes li..and I think in such a relationship..they wouldn't be negotiations anymore..they would be discussions of the relationship as it stands now..and where it may go..
[21:06] <ravenshad> true kat..they do..
[21:07] <ravenshad> true Bugs.. :)
[21:07] <Bugs42`> I think even though you reach that level of comfort leendah, since things constantly change, you should still negotiate or at least talk
[21:08] <leendah> yes Sir i agree with that but i like to think that there is some spontainaity
[21:08] <subdancer> communication stands up there with consentual
[21:08] <_mizu_> it is more talk than negotiate Sir
[21:09] <Bugs42`> I agree mizu, I put negotiate in intsances where it may be called for, a "pinch point" if you will
[21:09] <ravenshad> I agree dancer..
[21:10] <_mizu_> after the first year, it just kinda fit's together, the only time would be if something new came into the relationship
[21:10] <ravenshad> like sharing your partner, a new activity for both parties, something that was a limit for the sub before but became an "I'm willing to try it" type thing..you mean Bugs??
[21:11] <ravenshad> as for spontaneity..I don't think discussions or negotiation ruin spontaneity of a scene or relationship...
[21:11] <Bugs42`> yes raven, and egereious situation that is not talked but better negotiated instead of fumed over
[21:11] <ravenshad> wouldn't what happens, when it happens, and how it happens still be in the dom's hands?
[21:11] <ravenshad> ummmm...egereious??? (sorry..I can't think tonight)
[21:12] <Bugs42`> outrageous, extreme
[21:12] <ravenshad> thanks Bugs.. :)
[21:12] <slavekat> ty Bugs Sir :) i had trouble with that one too
[21:12] <ravenshad> I agree with that..anything extreme should at the very least be discussed before being done..
[21:14] <leendah> i agree on the extreme raven...plus something which sounds extreme without discussion when explained may not be at all
[21:14] <ravenshad> if I do not receive an email requesting anonymity, I will assume that is giving me permission to use the logs as they appear, with nicks intact
[21:14] <ravenshad> true li..
[21:15] <ravenshad> How important is compatability in the area of play?
[21:15] <leendah> compatability how/
[21:15] <leendah> ?
[21:15] <slavekat> play also has many levels doesn't it
[21:16] <ravenshad> both people like the same kinds and level/intensity of play..and should it be extensively discussed?
[21:16] <ravenshad> yes it does kat..
[21:16] <NoirRose> Very
[21:16] <NoirRose> Yes, it should
[21:16] <leendah> very important...
[21:16] <ravenshad> I agree NR and li.. :)
[21:17] <Bugs42`> I don;t see compatability in play as that importanat as long as limits are respected
[21:17] <ravenshad> Then, would it be logical, for people to decide what are types of play they would prefer not to live without, and which ones are "negotiable"?
[21:17] <leendah> but i think there may be exceptions, not glaring ones
[21:17] <ravenshad> Wouldn't it cause trouble Bugs, Sir..if you liked, say, cutting..and your partner detests it?
[21:18] <LAR^> There is an excellent check list in screw the roses for that
[21:18] <Bugs42`> no, not as long as limits were discussed and respected
[21:18] <NoirRose> Bug: What if one partner prefers pain play, and the other just likes simple bondage?
[21:18] <ravenshad> yes..but it's missing a few items Lar
[21:18] <LAR^> My pet and I have certain differences in our play preferences, yet we found a lot of common ground as well
[21:18] <Bugs42`> and I see play as not necessarrily in a relationship
[21:18] <NoirRose> I would have to say that compatiblity in play would be extremely important
[21:19] <lil`dragn> sorry y'all for being so quiet....but I must go now....see about finding that darn SandMan who seems to be avoiding me here lately
[21:19] <ravenshad> NR, I'd say there is a problem then..though I doubt a sadist or masochist would want to partner themselves with someone who did not like those activities
[21:19] <Bugs42`> in that case NR if you are willing to play, but that different, take turns from time to time
[21:19] <leendah> Noirrose i think that would be negotiable...pain play or/and simple bondage
[21:19] <NoirRose> Well, for an analogy, wouldn't that be fairly similar to a gay man married to a gay woman?
[21:21] <ravenshad> How does one get a sub to overcome their fear of speaking up during negotiations? and could that fear severely hamper negotiations?
[21:21] * fae{NR} would also pose the same question for Dom/mes *
[21:22] <NoirRose> Yes, it could...
[21:22] <ravenshad> yes it does go both ways fae..though I think it hampers subs more since so many think they shouldn't speak up because they are sub..
[21:22] <_mizu_> i never had a fear of saying what thing's i considered to far for me
[21:22] <ravenshad> good for you mizu.. :)
[21:23] <Bugs42`> I could say beat it out of them, but I doubt that would work... set up a signal or a "free" time
[21:23] <ravenshad> free time?
[21:23] * ravenshad plays dummy
[21:23] <leendah> limited experience here but i have found that some Doms draw me out first and make me comfortable with everything I desire then slowly start introduceing netotiation
[21:24] <ravenshad> draw you out how Li?
[21:24] <Bugs42`> free time, outside of roles or perhaps even a journal that is off limits or non punishable
[21:24] <leendah> by providing an extreme comfort zone in talking....
[21:25] <LAR^> leendah, that certainly works well in play. But, when my elle first offered me her full submission, we spent quite a bit of time discussing and negotiating her rules. With the understanding that this is an ongoing process
[21:25] <leendah> nothing i say will dissapoint them
[21:25] <ravenshad> good point Bugs Sir.. :)
[21:25] <leendah> they want to know everything
[21:25] <ravenshad> ok..does that talking include things like play, expectations, responsibilities, limits Li?
[21:25] <leendah> and invite and encourage every last thought or fantasy
[21:25] <ravenshad> what if the sub doesn't want to set any limits? or finds that their limits no longer exist with that dominant?
[21:26] <leendah> a little at a time but i am also talking from a perspective of not wanting to scare me off maybe
[21:26] <ravenshad> possibly..sounds like that kind of discussion falls under negotiation..
[21:26] <ravenshad> negotiation, hardly becomes something formal for most people..it's a matter of openly talking about the relationship and BDSM in general, and specifically how it applies to you that takes place...
[21:27] <leendah> other things they can say can be reasurring such as one that I loved was If this *example * ever happened I would have failed in my duties
[21:28] <ravenshad> that can be helpful..to know what the dominant considers to be a "failure' on the sub's part..
[21:28] <Bugs42`> if limits are unknown, then everything must be taken slowly
[21:28] <leendah> no he was discussing what he took seriously as his duties
[21:28] <leendah> but the opposite would be true as well
[21:29] <leendah> but for a Dom to outline what they themselves thinks crosses the line or would be a mistake in judgement makes me feel safer in their hands
[21:29] * NoirRose nods at leen
[21:31] <Bugs42`> agreed, the boundaries must be well drawn, so everyone knows what not to cross
[21:32] <AlstrBlck> But aren't boundries meant to be met and expanded?
[21:32] <leendah> also the semantics are important i think. When breath play was first brought up to me I thought they meant they wanted to smother me...
[21:32] <Mongoose> AlstrBlck: you can't put your head through a cieling ;)
[21:33] <AlstrBlck> Mongoose: Want to bet?
[21:33] <leendah> then when it was explained as a couple of seconds to reinforce control, well that was another matter <g>
[21:33] <ntalia> no Mongoose sir, but the ceiling is not always where we first think it is.
[21:33] <ntalia> and sometimes it does change.
[21:33] <Mongoose> AlstrBlck: hehe
[21:33] <slavekat> and the ceiling may be an illusion in the first place
[21:34] <Mongoose> talia: I start at '1. snuff play is right out'
[21:34] <Mongoose> talia: I see ceiling and limit as different things
[21:34] <leendah> do you mean "Out right?" Sir?
[21:35] <Bugs42`> I agree it is semantics and that is indeed something that should be discussed
[21:35] <Mongoose> leendah: no right out, like not ever permitted
[21:35] <leendah> that is what i thought. thank you
[21:36] <ravenshad> ok..so is it safe to say that someone should have a good idea of what they are interested in or at leat willing to try before entering into a BDSM relationship?
[21:36] <Mongoose> talia: some people never want to cross the multilation due to religious beliefs
[21:36] <Mongoose> talia: that come also be a 'cieling'...
[21:37] * ravenshad peers down her jammie at her nipples..gasps..OHMY I've been mutilated..<JOKE>
[21:37] <_mizu_> yes raven, that prevents alot of problems
[21:37] <ravenshad> Mongoose..what do you mean by ceiling?
[21:37] <Mongoose> ravenshad: heheh
[21:37] <AlstrBlck> Good example, raven!
[21:37] * ntalia nods. yes, but what is a ceiling today, may not be tomorrow.
[21:37] * slavekat giggles wildly at raven
[21:37] <ravenshad> is not mutiliation in the eye of the beholder?
[21:37] <ravenshad> I mean, to some peircing my nipples for master is mutilating my body..but not to me..
[21:38] <Mongoose> ravenshad: I consider mutilation like dismemberment
[21:38] <ravenshad> Ahhh...ok :)
[21:38] <ravenshad> well yeah..I think I'd consider dismemberment to be mutilation as well.. :)
[21:38] <AlstrBlck> But piercing is mutilation. It makes a hole in the body, moves flesh and meat, and leaves permanent scars.
[21:38] <ravenshad> Do you think that all the variances in definitions for terms, makes negotiation more difficult?
[21:39] <ravenshad> yeah..used to be a limit for me AB...<giggle> not anymore!
[21:39] <NoirRose> Well, that should be a part of the negotiation process, a mutual definition of terms
[21:39] <slavekat> what if the slave says she has not limits
[21:39] <_mizu_> yes raven, the vocabulary is a mess
[21:39] <Mongoose> perhaps it's also a good idea to only discuss thing that a sub has, can, and might do...
[21:40] <AlstrBlck> Everyone has limits, even if they say they don't. They just don't realize it.
[21:40] <ravenshad> DO you think that maybe it is time to stop redefining every term to fit "our" relationships just because we like the way it sounds?
[21:40] <Mongoose> that way you avoid the infinite 'limits'...
[21:40] <ntalia> i think the limits change. a women who hasn't had children but plans to, may not be comfortable in having nipples pierced.
[21:40] <slavekat> i do raven
[21:40] * NoirRose nods
[21:40] <ntalia> but after having children, after having nursed them... maybe it's okay.
[21:41] <ravenshad> I agree talia..
[21:41] <Bugs42`> tattoos are another form of mutilation
[21:41] <ravenshad> Though..from my understanding, peircing doesn't interfere with nursing..as the ducts heal around the peircing hole..so no you don't get milk shooting out the sides..
[21:41] <Mongoose> it's harder to rule out things than to agree on types of permited play
[21:42] <ntalia> yes, but there is a risk involvedd.
[21:42] <ravenshad> true there is talia..blocked ducts and all that
[21:42] <ravenshad> gee..and I just veered to the left.. :)
[21:42] <ravenshad> Is the discussion of a safeword something that should be included in negotiation, or handled seperately?
[21:43] <Bugs42`> I think it should be up front and immediate
[21:43] <_mizu_> best to do it before the negotiation
[21:43] <AlstrBlck> I bring it up immediately, before anything starts.
[21:44] <ravenshad> Does a sub have the right to demand a safeword?
[21:44] <_mizu_> yes
[21:44] <slavekat> yes a sub does
[21:44] <AlstrBlck> If she/he doesn't have that right, then how does one know that they are a willing party?
[21:44] <ntalia> i think in the course of negotiations, a sub has the right to demand anything then need.
[21:45] <Bugs42`> a sub does, a slave does not
[21:45] <ravenshad> possibly by them saying something like "whip me, beat me, hurt me, make me write bad checks..just don't mess up my hair"...or seriously, saying, sure..let's play!
[21:45] <ntalia> once the negotiations are done or that round is done, a sub needs to be willing to accept what they negotiated.
[21:45] * slavekat nods at Bugs
[21:45] <ravenshad> if a sub has the right to demand whatever they need, are they in fact submitting?
[21:46] <fae{NR}> yes, if it's an actual need...no if it's only a want/desire
[21:46] <ravenshad> agreed talia..a sub must be willing to accept what they negotiated...
[21:46] <Bugs42`> in the beginning that is the safest way, submit partially
[21:46] <ravenshad> agreed fae.. :)
[21:46] <ravenshad> why isn't a slave allowed a safeword Bugs Sir?
[21:47] <Bugs42`> a slave has no rights, no limits
[21:47] <ravenshad> true...so is it safe to say that one should be careful before labeling themselves a slave?
[21:47] * slavekat agrees wholeheartedly with Bugs
[21:48] <Bugs42`> most definitely!!!!
[21:48] * dekatia pulls on her hipboots...
[21:48] <AlstrBlck> so if a Master wanted to brand a slave, or, to extremes, cut off their nipples, they'd have no say in the matter?
[21:48] <ravenshad> dekatia...hip boots?
[21:48] <slavekat> exactly AB
[21:48] <ravenshad> I have to agree that one should be careful labeling themselves a slave
[21:48] <dekatia> yes, it's getting deep in here...no rights, no limits
[21:49] <Bugs42`> not if they were a slave... they gave up that right
[21:49] <ravenshad> actually kat, for those in M/s the answer to AB is..YES..correct
[21:49] <ravenshad> hence, be careful before you take a collar in an M/s relationship
[21:49] <ravenshad> they are different than D/s..very different
[21:49] <slavekat> YES very very raven, thank you
[21:50] <dekatia> apparently r/l relationships differ from those who type one-handedly about M/s and D/s on the net, too
[21:50] <ravenshad> dekatia...not really..
[21:50] <Bugs42`> why do you say that?
[21:50] <ravenshad> I live a 24/7 relationship..I am slave..by my definition..
[21:50] <ravenshad> which means..I am the property of my master..in all areas..it's up to him what happens, and I like it that way..
[21:51] <dekatia> i'm tired of these ppl who think that have this my way or the highway attitude...there are many different styles of d/s relationships, not just one true form
[21:51] <subdancer> night mizu
[21:51] <ravenshad> No one said there was one true form dekatia..
[21:51] <slavekat> agreed dekatia
[21:52] <dekatia> you are speaking about opinions as if they are absolutes
[21:52] <ravenshad> I am speaking of other's realities that are indeed absolutes to them...
[21:52] <slavekat> not at all, that was not my intention, my definition of slave is mine about myself
[21:52] <Bugs42`> nope, just from my perspective....
[21:53] <ravenshad> there are quite a few who believe a slave has no rights..so it is important that one be careful what they term themselves and who they use the term with..or one could end up in a world of hurt..
[21:53] <slavekat> when one is faced with a Master that says "I will allow you no limits, no safewords for you slave" that is reality
[21:53] <ravenshad> hence, the statement earlier, that discussing one's definitions of the terms is extremely important to negotiation..
[21:54] <Bugs42`> that is one of the reasons we have these discussions, to show the differences and especially why negotiation is important
[21:54] <dekatia> sounds like an awfully short form of negotiation...one that would leave me running the other direction....
[21:55] <slavekat> that is an option for you, and me as well, that is why the need for negotiation
[21:55] <Bugs42`> and that would be best if that is how you felt rather than getting involved and then finding out
[21:55] <ravenshad> you missed a lot of that discussion earlier dekatia...where it was said that in m/s the participants must be very careful to discuss their expectations and compatability and not accept a collar they can't live up to..or accept a collar thinking they can make the dominant change his/her mind
[21:55] <AlstrBlck> deka, I'm sure you'll find some of us are flexible, and not as rigid as you seem to think.
[21:56] <dekatia> we've spoken before Astr :)
[21:56] <AlstrBlck> we have?
[21:57] * AlstrBlck shakes the pea masquerading as his brain....
[21:57] <dekatia> *sigh* yes...girls, how quickly they forget, huh?
[21:57] <ravenshad> since it has now been raised...are there any special considerations in negotiating a cyber relationship into real life?
[21:57] <slavekat> oh good one raven thank you ~sigh~
[21:57] <fae{NR}> it will be important to discuss if there are things that a person won't do in r/l that they will in cyber
[21:57] <ravenshad> excellent point fae.. :)
[21:58] <ravenshad> I think when taking a relationship from cyber to real life, it becomes extremely important to discuss reality..day to day things...
[22:00] <ravenshad> how about..moods? emotional changes that may occur from time to time..
[22:00] * slavekat is waiting for divine guidance on this subject
[22:01] <ravenshad> or PMS...(which does happen to men too yanno!)
[22:01] <ravenshad> LOL kat
[22:01] <slavekat> i've heard
[22:01] <ravenshad> I've seen.. LOLOL
[22:01] <ravenshad> is it important to discuss those things when negotiation from cyber to reality?
[22:02] <AlstrBlck> oh yeah, emotional changes... Like I don't know THAT subject...
[22:02] <slavekat> ofcourse it is
[22:02] <slavekat> its easy to forget the reality of it when its all in your heart
[22:03] <ravenshad> yes
[22:03] <slavekat> its a good idea to tell the sub/slave if you expect your underwear folded in thirds andplaced just so
[22:04] <ravenshad> Yanno kat, some people would call that obsessing over discussing things, but I agree with you..often it is the little things that no one foresaw or brought up, that cause the most problems..
22:04] <ravenshad> like..he never rinses his whiskers out of the sink..or she snores real loud
[22:04] <slavekat> exactly, i know i appreciate that ....i mean, i need to know what i will be livign with
[22:05] <ravenshad> well, all..it's 10 PM here..any questions or comments before we wrap this up for the night?
[22:06] <ravenshad> I have one..should negotiation be as extensive in an online only relationship?
[22:06] <ravenshad> or does it really not matter that much, since there isn't any actual physical touching?
[22:06] <Bugs42`> yes, what I think and live is only me... I hope everyone else finds what fits them, no matter what the beliefs or terminology
[22:07] <ravenshad> Well said and I agree Bugs Sir.. :)
[22:08] <ravenshad> My thanks to all of you for another sucessful discussion, your participation is greatly appreciated.. :)
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