Presents:
BDSM Discussion 5
What Is
Submission To You?
All Comments Posted Here With Permission Of The Participants
Session Start:
Sun Feb 07 15:13:01 1999
[20:08] * ravenshad says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions on BDSM the following rules apply..
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[20:09] <ravenshad> Tonight's topic is "What is submission"...
[20:10] <ravenshad> For you, what does submission mean?
[20:11] <fae{NR}> submission to me means deferring and obeying one's Dom/me in pre-discussed situations/scenereos/whatevers
[20:11] <Azmadeus> Submission:....The act of asceding to anothers will
[20:11] <ravenshad> Only during pre-set scenes fae?
[20:12] <Bugs42`> submission is the giving of personal power to another person
[20:12] <fae{NR}> no, that's why i also included situations and whatevers...
[20:12] <ravenshad> now we've defined it..but does that definition really say what submission is?
[20:12] <fae{NR}> for me, there are some times that i will not defer to my Mistress, some specific scenereos
[20:13] <KimiD> there are so many grey levels to so many people it's hard to say what is what to who
[20:13] <Bugs42`> it defines it, yes, but what submission is depends on the individual, the Dom/me and the relationship
[20:13] <Azmadeus> Ahhhh....But what does it mean to You KimiD?
[20:13] <fae{NR}> as with many terms used in bdsmlmnop, submission may have some wide differences for many people, but the core is probably similar in all these situations
[20:14] <Azmadeus> Hello sulis{TC}
[20:14] <ravenshad> true Kimi..but how can others get an idea of what it is for them, if they have nothing to compare it to?
[20:14] <fae{NR}> hopefully we'll bring to light these core similarities in all our different views tonight
[20:14] <KimiD> i have a hard time defining it. to me it's doing what he says when he says it but that always sounds so lame.
[20:14] <ravenshad> that's what I am hoping for fae.. :)
[20:14] <ravenshad> not to me Kimi it doesn't sound lame..and here's a kicker of a question..why do you submit?
[20:14] <_mizu_> for me it was to serve, to care for Marisha, to put her need's first
[20:15] <KimiD> because it's my nature..it's what i feel
[20:15] <fae{NR}> submission to me means that i take care of my Mistress, even if she doesn't always realize she needs it
[20:15] <KimiD> i can not imagine being near him and not wishing to serve him
[20:16] <ravenshad> What does it give you? or is it all a one sided affair?
[20:16] <KimiD> it gives me discipline. it gives me help in changing those things about myself i cannot do on my own, it gives me comfort and security. and all the mushy stuff :)
[20:16] <Azmadeus> Mushy stuff is good,......LOL
[20:17] <ravenshad> mushy stuff is real good.. :)
[20:17] <_mizu_> it gave me a reson to care for someone besides myself, to relize what i do affect's the world around me
[20:17] <fae{NR}> it gives me pease of mind, knowing that i have a healthy Domme who will look out for me and take care of me
[20:17] <KimiD> just don't tell him i think we have "mushy stuff" :grins:
[20:17] <Talent> oooohhhhh im going to tellll
[20:17] <ravenshad> For me, this question is not easily answered..but I will try..it is putting my master's needs before my own, trusting someone to the point where I don't question them..by submitting I achieve a sense of wholeness that I can't get any other way..it is who I am..
[20:17] <Azmadeus> It gives me the knowledge that someone cares and respects me enough to place that much trust in me.....
[20:18] <ravenshad> yes fae.. :)
[20:19] <Bugs42`> what do you get in return for that raven?
[20:19] <ntalia> i am a submissive at my core. my life was a gift to my master. i didn't know how much that was my identity til i wasn't able to do that anymore.
[20:19] <ravenshad> damn..you would ask that.. :)
[20:19] * fae{NR} gryns *
[20:19] <fae{NR}> that's what these nights are about, yes/no?
[20:19] <ravenshad> yes fae.. :)
[20:20] * ravenshad thinks..ok someone shut the smoke detectors off
[20:20] * _mizu_ giggles
[20:20] <ravenshad> what I get in return..the easiest answer is dominance..but that doesn't begin to cover it..
[20:21] <sulis[TC]> Well for me submission is doing everything i can to put Talents needs ahead of mine because i know that what he needs and wants is only good things for this family. Its trusting in him to lead me where i want to be. Allwoing him to change those things i may not even realize i need to change even if i dont know why he is doing it and dont like his methods becuase is know he will prove to be right
[20:21] <fae{NR}> in fear of echoing others, by submitting what i gain is a Mistress i litterally trust with my life, who i know will take me places in my mind and bring me safely back home again.
[20:21] <Bugs42`> short answer doesn't quite cover it all raven... nice try, if you need the submission and it is what you are, what do you get?
[20:22] <ravenshad> I get a sense of completeness..the freedom to be all of who I am and have that not only accepted but appreciated and treasured..I get trust..the ability to feel everything I have inside me and not have it ridiculed or taken for granted..
[20:22] <ravenshad> I get the freedom to be myself..and have that mean something to someone..
[20:22] <ravenshad> is that a bit better?
[20:23] <ntalia> what i got was a sense of security and belonging. i had pleasure in success in pleasing my master.
[20:23] <KimiD> i have to admit..that was one thing that drew me to being submissive..the fact that i had fantasies in a normal life i'd be afraid to admit..i could do that and not feel like i was a freak for what i wanted
[20:23] <ravenshad> heck..toss in pride..personal satisfaction..contentment..and pleasure..and you've covered just about everything I think
[20:23] <ravenshad> Gosh Kimi do I know how that feels!!
[20:23] <Bugs42`> so it allows you the freedom to be who you need to be and trust another to take care of you as you take care of Him/Her?
[20:23] <ravenshad> yes Bugs Sir..
[20:25] <ravenshad> what, in your opinion, makes you submissive?
[20:25] <KimiD> i tie his shoes
[20:25] <KimiD> seriously..the fact that i do what he says when he says
[20:25] <KimiD> most the time without the attitude :)
[20:25] <ravenshad> Would you still be a submissive Kimi if you didn't have him?
[20:25] <KimiD> yes.
[20:25] <ravenshad> or he didn't have you I should say..
[20:25] <ravenshad> ok..then what makes you a submissive? do you think it is in your genes, or was it taught by society to you?
[20:25] <KimiD> it's something i thought about for a while
[20:26] <KimiD> see..now that is something i never know how to answer...
[20:26] <fae{NR}> what makes me a submissive is outside of the prfessional work environment i find it easier to cope if i'm not the one in charge of everything/most things
[20:26] <KimiD> I NEVER had the fantasies everyone else seems to have had
[20:26] <KimiD> i didn't even know about d/s until i was 23
[20:26] <sulis[TC]> now thats a hot ? raven
[20:26] <ravenshad> for me, it is part of my personality, always has been..
[20:27] <ravenshad> The first I heard of BDSM, in books or some such, I was around 25 I think it was..
[20:27] <fae{NR}> (uh oh, nature vs. nurthre) I personally believe that submissive can come from either genes or society, or a mixture of both...personally i'd say my submissive tendencies are nature originated
[20:27] <sulis[TC]> but are you asking about formal D/s type of relationship
[20:27] <sulis[TC]> or just being submissive
[20:27] <ravenshad> explain sulis..formal D/s relationship?
[20:27] * ravenshad was talking about being submissive..
[20:28] <ntalia> i didn't know about it either.
[20:28] <Azmadeus> Nature versus Nurture.....?......I think It has to be a mix.....
[20:29] <ntalia> but as my master's and my relationship developed, i realized who i was. it was only after he died that i really understood that there was a word or a community that could describe our relationship.
[20:29] <sulis[TC]> I ment are you asking about when you realized that your relationship was D/s and that you where the submissive part of the equation because in some senses that is part of the evironment Society told us that this was what i was and i felt comfortable with that assesment
[20:30] <sulis[TC]> but i have been submissive in nature all my life
[20:30] <ravenshad> nope that isn't what I meant sulis..sorry
[20:30] <AlstrBlck> Reminds me of a saying... Lead, follow, or get out of the way. Some people are "born" for lack of a better word, to take charge, some to follow, and some who don't know what they want.
[20:31] <_mizu_> true Sir, that is me (giggle)
[20:31] <Payge> i think being an only child has contributed to my natural tendency to dominate
[20:31] <ravenshad> I agree with that AB..
[20:31] <ravenshad> Does being a submissive mean you don't have a mind of your own?
[20:32] <KimiD> nope
[20:32] <fae{NR}> i tend to disagree with that, as i was also an only child and am definately submissive
[20:32] <KimiD> how can you be a good submissive and not have a brain cell to rub together?
[20:32] <intoit{N}> then what of me??
[20:32] <Payge> of course, i was speaking about my own personl expeience...
[20:32] <ravenshad> I don't know Kimi..but it seems many think that submissive is equivalent to stupid
[20:32] <fae{NR}> raven, definately not, i have a very strong mind, and if i really don't like something, i will let it be known
[20:32] <sulis[TC]> no it does not mean you dont have a mind of your own
[20:32] <intoit{N}> if it does i'm in trouble
[20:33] <KimiD> well sure..everyone's cliche thought of submissive is someone how's meek and can't speak for herself...and i have a theory on tha t;)
[20:33] <ravenshad> I tend to believe that a submissive has to be fairly intelligent, observant, resilient and capable of accepting change...in other words..pretty darn smart
[20:33] <Bugs42^> being submissive means only that, reading anything else into it would be as wrong as saying a Dom/me is perfect
[20:33] <_mizu_> like hell, how can we be stupid when we have to run the world!
[20:33] <ravenshad> what's your theory Kimi?
[20:33] <Azmadeus> I would not want someone who never disagreed with me.....would anyone here want that?
[20:34] <ravenshad> not me Az Sir..if I were dom that is..
[20:34] <KimiD> alot of vanilla people want to try to understand what we do..and the only model they have to put subs up to are abused women..who do tend to be weak, meek, and not willing to think for themselves until they get their act together.
[20:34] <ravenshad> good theory Kimi..I can agree with that..
[20:35] <Azmadeus> Very true KimiD.......nice observation
[20:35] <ravenshad> Is a submissive an abused person?
[20:35] <fae{NR}> a lot of vanilla people would have a very hard time fitting me into that mold though *gryn*
[20:35] <KimiD> no
[20:36] <AlstrBlck> I agree, Kimi. It seems that the submissive is always portrayed as a battered and abused woman, and the Man (more about that in a minute) as a drunken red-neck wife beater.
[20:36] <fae{NR}> not in the correct type of relationship
[20:36] <KimiD> it's because they don't have the info or want to dig that deep so they go with the easiest and fastest comparions they can find
[20:36] <fae{NR}> one where there is actually communication going on, and everything is consentual
[20:36] <_mizu_> yea right, i was better taken care of then at any time of my life when i was with Marisha
[20:37] <AlstrBlck> Now, as for my use of the word Man.. That's the impression most vanilla's seem to get. And when it's a strong-willed woman, she's not referred to as a Domme, but rather as a Bitch.
[20:37] <ravenshad> that is a nasty stereotype AB..but you're right, that is how many see us..
[20:38] <Azmadeus> Yewww......not a good streotype...(As if there was a good one)
[20:38] <ravenshad> Does being submissive mean you are submissive to everyone?
[20:38] <Azmadeus> LOL.....No......At least not in most cases....
[20:39] <Bugs42^> gosh, submissives are abused and Dom/me are abusers and bitches... doesn't sound good... do we perpetuate that?
[20:39] <_mizu_> nope, and i got into a ton of challenges over that one to
[20:39] <fae{NR}> in my case, not at all
[20:39] <ravenshad> I don't think we do Bugs..I think we try hard to dispell that perception..
[20:39] <AlstrBlck> No, Bugs, not us. It's those that don't understand this way of life that do.
[20:40] <fae{NR}> or more precisely AB, those who don't want to take the time to find out the truth
[20:40] <Azmadeus> Well.....we havent exactly got billboards up on the side of the highway to dispell the notion raven......
[20:40] <AlstrBlck> You've seen them, on talkshows... "My husband thinks I'm his slave", etc. You hear how he gets drunk and beats her, and from their, the narrowminded people assume we are like that, too.
[20:40] <ravenshad> true we don't Az...but we are generally speaking becoming more vocal..
[20:40] <AlstrBlck> heheheh I said should be, didn't say I was... <G> I was awake for 72 hours straight this week, got 5 hours of sleep, and am back at it.
[20:41] <Azmadeus> Yes.....a little.....but it is a small voice as yet....
[20:41] <ravenshad> is it really that small of a voice Az?
[20:41] <ravenshad> that's a different topic though..<giggle>
[20:42] * ntalia laffs. my master never got drunk. never allowed me more than two drinks an evening. saw to it that i worked at learning new skills.
[20:42] <_mizu_> Marisha never drank, she said she alway's had to much fun watching me (giggle)
[20:43] <Bugs42^> I am curious about what raven asked... as a submissive are you submissive to just anyone?
[20:43] <ntalia> oh no! to my master.
[20:43] <AlstrBlck> No, we don't, Azmadeus, but, we do have something. I've noticed a new genre of jpg's coming down the line. Instead of the usual hardcore BDSM, I've noticed more artistic bondage imagery coming thru. If that can change some people's perspective, good.
[20:43] <ntalia> i served all those who entered the house, but as a hostess, not as a slave.
[20:44] <ravenshad> I think that depends on the person Bugs..for me, I can be sub, in varying degrees, to more than just one person...
[20:44] <_mizu_> i have notied that to Sir, and some of the art drawing are great!
[20:44] <Bugs42^> was that your choice ntalia?
[20:45] <AlstrBlck> I've seen some stunning images, mizu, that are simply breathtaking. Artwork, too.
[20:45] <ntalia> my master required someone to take care of hostessing when he entertained. so that was service to him. but that was as any significant other would help with cocktail or dinner parties.
[20:46] <ntalia> in front of others, i sat at the table to eat dinner. when alone, i knelt at his side as he ate.
[20:46] <ravenshad> OK..let's play complete the sentence.. :)
[20:47] <ravenshad> fill in the blank.."I will not submit to....... ?
[20:47] <Bugs42^> anyone, other than my boss
[20:48] * ravenshad giggles...
[20:48] <ravenshad> now how did I know that??
[20:48] <_mizu_> demand's made out of rudeness
[20:48] * ravenshad ponders cattle prods to wake people up..(ooohhhh electric play)
[20:48] <ntalia> i do not know how to answer that. i was never asked to submit to anything that i didn't wish to do for my master. and now, it's just not meaningful
[20:50] <ravenshad> but I'm going to toss something out..read, and comment.. :)
[20:51] <Bugs42^> did you toss and I missed?
[20:51] <ravenshad> nope..opening it to paste
[20:52] <ravenshad> these are from an email I sent to a newsgroup..
[20:53] <ravenshad> question was: What is submission
[20:53] <ravenshad> Submission is giving control of myself to another. That's the technical
[20:53] <ravenshad> definition anyway. But it is so much more than that. It is emotional and
[20:53] <ravenshad> pyschological way before it is physical. Submission isn't a want for me,
[20:53] <ravenshad> it's a need, it isnt' something I do just for kicks or sexual thrills. It
[20:53] <ravenshad> is what I have to do. It is an integral part of who I am. Submission means
[20:53] <ravenshad> to me that I strive to please my master above myself, even if I'm not really
[20:53] <ravenshad> in the mood. It isn't just submitting to the pleasurable things but
[20:53] <ravenshad> submitting/accepting the nost so pleasurable things as well that do or will
[20:53] <ravenshad> please him. It isn't all sex, though that is included. It is service as
[20:53] <ravenshad> well. For me, it is more the service than the play. Things like making the
[20:53] <ravenshad> bed, cleaning the house, getting his coffee, and other household chores.
[20:53] <ravenshad> making our home a welcoming place for him to come home to. It's wearing the
[20:53] <ravenshad> clothes he likes seeing on me. It's striving to be the best I can be for
[20:53] <ravenshad> him. Submission is the mental knowledge of who is in charge, who makes the
[20:54] <ravenshad> final decisions. It is being able to trust someone else so deeply that
[20:54] <ravenshad> questioning their orders doesn't come to mind. Submission is being strong
[20:54] <ravenshad> enough within myself to be able to give what I am to another. It's being
[20:54] <ravenshad> secure enough within myself that I can freely choose to place another's
[20:54] <ravenshad> needs before my own, yet not lose my identity, instead enhance it through
[20:54] <ravenshad> the power exchange dynamic. It is an emotional bond that is so strong that a
[20:54] <ravenshad> simple look from my master speaks volumes to me where a sparkle in his eyes
[20:54] <ravenshad> is all I need to know I've done a good job, or a certain expression shows
[20:54] <ravenshad> that I did not do a good job. Submission which flows naturally from to me my
[20:54] <ravenshad> master is what brings me the greatest personal joy but can also bring
[20:54] <ravenshad> emoptional pain as well. It is knowing, even during times of confusion, deep
[20:54] <ravenshad> inside that I belong to my master no matter what. Though all of these parts
[20:54] <ravenshad> of submission I gain freedom to be all of who I am and to enjoy that. To
[20:54] <ravenshad> find pleasure in my need to please someone else. For me, as a service
[20:54] <ravenshad> orientated sub-slave, submission is who I am not just something I do. In the
[20:54] <ravenshad> right circumstances and with the right person, the depth of my submission
[20:54] <ravenshad> strengthens every day. Through this process I find inner peace, contentment,
[20:54] <ravenshad> happiness and satisfcation unlike anything I've ever experienced before. For
[20:54] <ravenshad> me, it completes me. I suppose I could live without D/s in my life, but I
[20:54] <ravenshad> would not have that deep sense of contentment that living D/s gives me and
[20:54] <ravenshad> that I could not completely empathize with until recently.
[20:54] <ravenshad> thoughts?
[20:54] <KimiD> pretty much how i feel
[20:55] <ravenshad> Does submission require love?
[20:55] <KimiD> no
[20:55] <ntalia> that fit me pretty well. it's why i'm so lost in life now cause i can't serve anymore.
[20:55] <Bugs42^> sounds like a slave in the right situation
[20:55] <KimiD> i think most times it happens but it does not require
[20:56] <sulis[TC]> no
[20:56] <ravenshad> why doesn't it require love?
[20:56] <_mizu_> love is not required, but it help's
[20:56] <ntalia> Reneee, we're having a discussion tonight about what is submission? what do you think of when you hear about submission as someone who isnt involved in D/s?
[20:56] <Talent> fear can replace love and respect.
[20:56] <KimiD> because there are people who enjoy simply serving
[20:56] <_mizu_> one can serve out of respect for the person, or as a student
[20:57] <ravenshad> does that enjoyment of service make part of the difference between a sub and a slave?
[20:57] <Reneee`> well.. Hmmm... I tried it once.. so I am a bit biased I guess.. it was a bad experience for me.
[20:57] <ravenshad> If that happens Talent, then in my opninion the relationship moves beyond BDSM and into the outskirts of abuse..
[20:57] <Talent> agreed, but submission can happen with out love
[20:57] <Bugs42^> what type of fear Talent?
[20:58] <ravenshad> yes it can Talent.. :)
[20:58] <Bugs42^> I agree, love is not required
[20:58] <Talent> any fear Bugs
[20:58] <KimiD> sub and slave are to closely related of words to me..i think it's what makes the difference between a bottom and a sub
[20:58] <ravenshad> I can agree with that Kimi.. :)
[20:58] <ntalia> my master and i never talked about love, but looking back,i realize that we did have love.
[20:58] <ravenshad> Should one's submission enhance the person they are, or detract from it?
[20:59] <sulis[TC]> and there is nothing abusive to wanting to serve someone out of deep respect for that person
[20:59] <Talent> enhance
[20:59] <_mizu_> for me it has helped me, taught me to care for others
[20:59] <ravenshad> you learned well mizu :)
[20:59] <ravenshad> I agree sulis.. :)
[20:59] <ntalia> i think there are times where submission means giving up some of who you are, but mostly, it enhances.
[21:00] <ravenshad> Is it giving up who you are, or being all of who you are?
[21:00] <sulis[TC]> but giveing up a part of you doesnt mean you are not getting something else in return and thus gaining from the loss
[21:01] <ravenshad> true sulis..
[21:01] <_mizu_> it shapes the person, difines them better
[21:01] <_mizu_> for me it gave me reason to be, something to be
[21:02] <ravenshad> By being a submissive does that mean you can't say no?
[21:03] <sulis[TC]> you can always say no but like anything else in life there are always consequences to any action you take
[21:03] <Bugs42^> you can say it, but I should have final say unless it is a hard limit
[21:03] <_mizu_> not by a long shot, Marisha gave me the right to say no if it was in her best intrest, but i had to justify my actions
[21:03] <ravenshad> OK ...does that mean if a dominant who you are not collared to, comes up to you and demands you kneel, can you say no?
[21:04] <ntalia> For me, i wished always to say yes. saying no wasn't my pleasure. though sometimes i argued because it was more exciting for my master to fight me.
[21:04] <sulis[TC]> yes of course
[21:04] <Talent> i hope so raven
[21:04] <ntalia> yes.
[21:04] <ravenshad> ok..just wanted to clarify that..
[21:04] <sulis[TC]> but you have to deal with the consequenced of that action
[21:04] <AlstrBlck> Yes you can say no, raven.
[21:04] <_mizu_> yeap, unless MY Mistress as ordered me to do so out of respect to them
[21:04] <ravenshad> agreed sulis.. :)
[21:04] <AlstrBlck> It's not just a matter of being Dom, but it's a matter or respect, too.
[21:05] <Bugs42^> yes... you can say no in that instance
[21:05] <ravenshad> Does submission touch every part of your lives? Or is it just something for on again off again sexual encounters?
[21:05] <sulis[TC]> IF that Dom happens to be someone who your Dom gives permission to ask you to kneel you sure as hell better kneel or you are disobeying your owner
[21:05] <ravenshad> I have to agree there sulis.. :)
[21:05] <_mizu_> it made raven, so no it is a part of my life now
[21:06] <sulis[TC]> but conversely if you do kneel and your Dom disapproves you have to deal with that too
[21:06] <ravenshad> true sulis..
[21:06] <ravenshad> Obedience is a part of submission then?
[21:06] <Bugs42^> I see my slaves submission as a 24/7 life and therefore it is always there
[21:06] <ravenshad> ummm, in case you don't know, I'm not the only one who can toss out questions here.. :)
[21:06] <Talent> isnt obedience submission?
[21:06] <_mizu_> yes, that and honor to your Mistress or Master
[21:07] <ravenshad> partly, yes I believe it is Talent..
[21:07] <ravenshad> Are there different levels of submission?
[21:08] <ravenshad> but I don't think blind obedience is part of submission..
[21:08] <sulis[TC]> yes i believe there are
[21:08] <Talent> i dont think there are levels to it
[21:09] <ravenshad> What levels would you say exist sulis?
[21:09] <ravenshad> why not Talent?
[21:09] <Talent> either you submit or you dont.
[21:09] <Talent> if you dont submit your not submisive.
[21:09] <ravenshad> would a person who submits only during a session/scene or preset arrangement not be a submissive on some level?
[21:09] <sulis[TC]> well when he puts it that way it is hard to argue with that logic
[21:10] <ravenshad> I think there are levels of submission..
[21:10] <Talent> raven: only during those scenes or set rules.
[21:10] <ntalia> i think there are people that are situational submissives. some who are full time submissives. both are valid.
[21:10] <ravenshad> think for a moment, at the beginning of a relationship, a submisive may not do as many things as they would 6 months or a year later..their submission has deepened as the level of trust has grown...
[21:10] <Bugs42^> I agree you either do or don't submit, but is it all the time or part time and do you have a ton of limits?
[21:10] <ravenshad> I can agree with that Talent, but I call them bottoms.. :)
[21:11] <sulis[TC]> but i think that people chooose to submit once and a while or they choose to submit 24/7
[21:11] <sulis[TC]> in that sense there are levels to it
[21:11] <ravenshad> Is choosing to submit 24/7 more difficult?
[21:12] <AlstrBlck> In your suggested case, Talent, a sub walking down the street, accosted by every man who says "Hey Baby, let's f*ck" would have to submit to him.
[21:13] <Talent> Uhm, thats out of the context i ment Alstr
[21:13] <Bugs42^> was it for you raven?
[21:14] <ravenshad> in some ways Yes Sir it was..in others, no it wasn't..
[21:14] <Bugs42^> could you explain raven?
[21:15] <ravenshad> I had only lived a 24/7 relationship for a short while, over a year and half ago now..maybe two years..
[21:15] <ravenshad> anyway..I got burned big time..so there was fear from that..which held me back in a few areas..
[21:15] <ravenshad> submitting my body was easy..bruises etc can and will heal
[21:15] <ravenshad> submitting my heart is proving more difficult...those wounds take longer to heal..
[21:16] <_mizu_> it alway's dose raven
[21:17] <ravenshad> true mizu..
[21:17] <sulis[TC]> i think my biggest difficulty is trust it is really hard to trust anyone to make decisions for you and not second guess them sometimes
[21:17] <ravenshad> I can understand that sulis..that is true..
[21:17] <ravenshad> how does one deal with that though?
[21:18] <ravenshad> is it something that eases over time?
[21:18] <_mizu_> live, it is all you can do
[21:18] <sulis[TC]> i tell myself to shut up or **puts hands up to her mouth**i get in trouble
[21:18] <Talent> hehehehe
[21:19] * ravenshad giggles..I think we all do that sometimes..I know I have been biting my tongue so much my taste buds don't work right anymore..
[21:19] <sulis[TC]> you get to a point where you get to trust most of the decisions being made
[21:19] <Bugs42^> as the trust grows, I think it would ease
[21:19] <ntalia> when a master inspires trust, and has earned trust it is easy to submit.
[21:19] <sulis[TC]> but there is always some doubt that maybe he doesnt have all the information he needs to make that decision
[21:19] <ntalia> but it takes time to earn trust.
[21:19] <sulis[TC]> i think that just makes you human
[21:20] <ravenshad> I've noticed that for me, it is situational whether or not I question something..
[21:20] <sulis[TC]> but i trust Talent with my life and there are still times that i question the directions he leads me in
[21:21] <sulis[TC]> definetly situational
[21:21] <Bugs42^> do you question out loud?
[21:22] <sulis[TC]> i try not to
[21:22] * Talent brings out the Ducttape
[21:22] <ravenshad> sometimes yes..sometimes no
[21:22] <ravenshad> Does questioning things from time to time, make one not a submissive?
[21:23] <Bugs42^> how does your Dom/me respond to being questioned?
[21:23] <ravenshad> depends on the situation and how it is stated..
[21:23] <ntalia> no, it makes one a sentient being.
[21:24] <Bugs42^> I do not mind being questioned.... I am not perfect, but it best be worded carefully
[21:24] <Talent> i myself dont mind being questioned to a point.
[21:24] <sulis[TC]> i dont think so because i know in my heart that if it came right down to it i would do whatever he siad regardless of my own misgivings on the subject
[21:25] <Bugs42^> and you raven? does it make you less submissive feeling?
[21:26] <ravenshad> depends on the situation..but usually I do not like questioning my dominant..it is not a comfortable thing for me to do..
[21:26] <Bugs42^> I see it as necessary at times and would expevt it
[21:29] * ravenshad is out of questions..anyone wanna toss one out?
[21:30] <sulis[TC]> i am to tired to think right now
[21:31] <Bugs42^> have fun and don't foget the required legal jargon raven
[20:08] * ravenshad says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions on BDSM the following rules apply..
[20:08] <ravenshad> you must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave
[20:08] <ravenshad> no trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night
[20:08] <ravenshad> if you troll, you will be kicked and possibly banned..
[20:09] <ravenshad> be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[20:09] <ravenshad> all statements are publishable on the web site, with nicks changed (at your request, email webmaster@leathernroses.com if you don't want your nick used.
[20:09] <ravenshad> Tonight's topic is "What is submission"...
[20:10] <ravenshad> For you, what does submission mean?
[20:11] <fae{NR}> submission to me means deferring and obeying one's Dom/me in pre-discussed situations/scenereos/whatevers
[20:11] <Azmadeus> Submission:....The act of asceding to anothers will
[20:11] <ravenshad> Only during pre-set scenes fae?
[20:12] <Bugs42`> submission is the giving of personal power to another person
[20:12] <fae{NR}> no, that's why i also included situations and whatevers...
[20:12] <ravenshad> now we've defined it..but does that definition really say what submission is?
[20:12] <fae{NR}> for me, there are some times that i will not defer to my Mistress, some specific scenereos
[20:13] <KimiD> there are so many grey levels to so many people it's hard to say what is what to who
[20:13] <Bugs42`> it defines it, yes, but what submission is depends on the individual, the Dom/me and the relationship
[20:13] <Azmadeus> Ahhhh....But what does it mean to You KimiD?
[20:13] <fae{NR}> as with many terms used in bdsmlmnop, submission may have some wide differences for many people, but the core is probably similar in all these situations
[20:14] <Azmadeus> Hello sulis{TC}
[20:14] <ravenshad> true Kimi..but how can others get an idea of what it is for them, if they have nothing to compare it to?
[20:14] <fae{NR}> hopefully we'll bring to light these core similarities in all our different views tonight
[20:14] <KimiD> i have a hard time defining it. to me it's doing what he says when he says it but that always sounds so lame.
[20:14] <ravenshad> that's what I am hoping for fae.. :)
[20:14] <ravenshad> not to me Kimi it doesn't sound lame..and here's a kicker of a question..why do you submit?
[20:14] <_mizu_> for me it was to serve, to care for Marisha, to put her need's first
[20:15] <KimiD> because it's my nature..it's what i feel
[20:15] <fae{NR}> submission to me means that i take care of my Mistress, even if she doesn't always realize she needs it
[20:15] <KimiD> i can not imagine being near him and not wishing to serve him
[20:16] <ravenshad> What does it give you? or is it all a one sided affair?
[20:16] <KimiD> it gives me discipline. it gives me help in changing those things about myself i cannot do on my own, it gives me comfort and security. and all the mushy stuff :)
[20:16] <Azmadeus> Mushy stuff is good,......LOL
[20:17] <ravenshad> mushy stuff is real good.. :)
[20:17] <_mizu_> it gave me a reson to care for someone besides myself, to relize what i do affect's the world around me
[20:17] <fae{NR}> it gives me pease of mind, knowing that i have a healthy Domme who will look out for me and take care of me
[20:17] <KimiD> just don't tell him i think we have "mushy stuff" :grins:
[20:17] <Talent> oooohhhhh im going to tellll
[20:17] <ravenshad> For me, this question is not easily answered..but I will try..it is putting my master's needs before my own, trusting someone to the point where I don't question them..by submitting I achieve a sense of wholeness that I can't get any other way..it is who I am..
[20:17] <Azmadeus> It gives me the knowledge that someone cares and respects me enough to place that much trust in me.....
[20:18] <ravenshad> yes fae.. :)
[20:19] <Bugs42`> what do you get in return for that raven?
[20:19] <ntalia> i am a submissive at my core. my life was a gift to my master. i didn't know how much that was my identity til i wasn't able to do that anymore.
[20:19] <ravenshad> damn..you would ask that.. :)
[20:19] * fae{NR} gryns *
[20:19] <fae{NR}> that's what these nights are about, yes/no?
[20:19] <ravenshad> yes fae.. :)
[20:20] * ravenshad thinks..ok someone shut the smoke detectors off
[20:20] * _mizu_ giggles
[20:20] <ravenshad> what I get in return..the easiest answer is dominance..but that doesn't begin to cover it..
[20:21] <sulis[TC]> Well for me submission is doing everything i can to put Talents needs ahead of mine because i know that what he needs and wants is only good things for this family. Its trusting in him to lead me where i want to be. Allwoing him to change those things i may not even realize i need to change even if i dont know why he is doing it and dont like his methods becuase is know he will prove to be right
[20:21] <fae{NR}> in fear of echoing others, by submitting what i gain is a Mistress i litterally trust with my life, who i know will take me places in my mind and bring me safely back home again.
[20:21] <Bugs42`> short answer doesn't quite cover it all raven... nice try, if you need the submission and it is what you are, what do you get?
[20:22] <ravenshad> I get a sense of completeness..the freedom to be all of who I am and have that not only accepted but appreciated and treasured..I get trust..the ability to feel everything I have inside me and not have it ridiculed or taken for granted..
[20:22] <ravenshad> I get the freedom to be myself..and have that mean something to someone..
[20:22] <ravenshad> is that a bit better?
[20:23] <ntalia> what i got was a sense of security and belonging. i had pleasure in success in pleasing my master.
[20:23] <KimiD> i have to admit..that was one thing that drew me to being submissive..the fact that i had fantasies in a normal life i'd be afraid to admit..i could do that and not feel like i was a freak for what i wanted
[20:23] <ravenshad> heck..toss in pride..personal satisfaction..contentment..and pleasure..and you've covered just about everything I think
[20:23] <ravenshad> Gosh Kimi do I know how that feels!!
[20:23] <Bugs42`> so it allows you the freedom to be who you need to be and trust another to take care of you as you take care of Him/Her?
[20:23] <ravenshad> yes Bugs Sir..
[20:25] <ravenshad> what, in your opinion, makes you submissive?
[20:25] <KimiD> i tie his shoes
[20:25] <KimiD> seriously..the fact that i do what he says when he says
[20:25] <KimiD> most the time without the attitude :)
[20:25] <ravenshad> Would you still be a submissive Kimi if you didn't have him?
[20:25] <KimiD> yes.
[20:25] <ravenshad> or he didn't have you I should say..
[20:25] <ravenshad> ok..then what makes you a submissive? do you think it is in your genes, or was it taught by society to you?
[20:25] <KimiD> it's something i thought about for a while
[20:26] <KimiD> see..now that is something i never know how to answer...
[20:26] <fae{NR}> what makes me a submissive is outside of the prfessional work environment i find it easier to cope if i'm not the one in charge of everything/most things
[20:26] <KimiD> I NEVER had the fantasies everyone else seems to have had
[20:26] <KimiD> i didn't even know about d/s until i was 23
[20:26] <sulis[TC]> now thats a hot ? raven
[20:26] <ravenshad> for me, it is part of my personality, always has been..
[20:27] <ravenshad> The first I heard of BDSM, in books or some such, I was around 25 I think it was..
[20:27] <fae{NR}> (uh oh, nature vs. nurthre) I personally believe that submissive can come from either genes or society, or a mixture of both...personally i'd say my submissive tendencies are nature originated
[20:27] <sulis[TC]> but are you asking about formal D/s type of relationship
[20:27] <sulis[TC]> or just being submissive
[20:27] <ravenshad> explain sulis..formal D/s relationship?
[20:27] * ravenshad was talking about being submissive..
[20:28] <ntalia> i didn't know about it either.
[20:28] <Azmadeus> Nature versus Nurture.....?......I think It has to be a mix.....
[20:29] <ntalia> but as my master's and my relationship developed, i realized who i was. it was only after he died that i really understood that there was a word or a community that could describe our relationship.
[20:29] <sulis[TC]> I ment are you asking about when you realized that your relationship was D/s and that you where the submissive part of the equation because in some senses that is part of the evironment Society told us that this was what i was and i felt comfortable with that assesment
[20:30] <sulis[TC]> but i have been submissive in nature all my life
[20:30] <ravenshad> nope that isn't what I meant sulis..sorry
[20:30] <AlstrBlck> Reminds me of a saying... Lead, follow, or get out of the way. Some people are "born" for lack of a better word, to take charge, some to follow, and some who don't know what they want.
[20:31] <_mizu_> true Sir, that is me (giggle)
[20:31] <Payge> i think being an only child has contributed to my natural tendency to dominate
[20:31] <ravenshad> I agree with that AB..
[20:31] <ravenshad> Does being a submissive mean you don't have a mind of your own?
[20:32] <KimiD> nope
[20:32] <fae{NR}> i tend to disagree with that, as i was also an only child and am definately submissive
[20:32] <KimiD> how can you be a good submissive and not have a brain cell to rub together?
[20:32] <intoit{N}> then what of me??
[20:32] <Payge> of course, i was speaking about my own personl expeience...
[20:32] <ravenshad> I don't know Kimi..but it seems many think that submissive is equivalent to stupid
[20:32] <fae{NR}> raven, definately not, i have a very strong mind, and if i really don't like something, i will let it be known
[20:32] <sulis[TC]> no it does not mean you dont have a mind of your own
[20:32] <intoit{N}> if it does i'm in trouble
[20:33] <KimiD> well sure..everyone's cliche thought of submissive is someone how's meek and can't speak for herself...and i have a theory on tha t;)
[20:33] <ravenshad> I tend to believe that a submissive has to be fairly intelligent, observant, resilient and capable of accepting change...in other words..pretty darn smart
[20:33] <Bugs42^> being submissive means only that, reading anything else into it would be as wrong as saying a Dom/me is perfect
[20:33] <_mizu_> like hell, how can we be stupid when we have to run the world!
[20:33] <ravenshad> what's your theory Kimi?
[20:33] <Azmadeus> I would not want someone who never disagreed with me.....would anyone here want that?
[20:34] <ravenshad> not me Az Sir..if I were dom that is..
[20:34] <KimiD> alot of vanilla people want to try to understand what we do..and the only model they have to put subs up to are abused women..who do tend to be weak, meek, and not willing to think for themselves until they get their act together.
[20:34] <ravenshad> good theory Kimi..I can agree with that..
[20:35] <Azmadeus> Very true KimiD.......nice observation
[20:35] <ravenshad> Is a submissive an abused person?
[20:35] <fae{NR}> a lot of vanilla people would have a very hard time fitting me into that mold though *gryn*
[20:35] <KimiD> no
[20:36] <AlstrBlck> I agree, Kimi. It seems that the submissive is always portrayed as a battered and abused woman, and the Man (more about that in a minute) as a drunken red-neck wife beater.
[20:36] <fae{NR}> not in the correct type of relationship
[20:36] <KimiD> it's because they don't have the info or want to dig that deep so they go with the easiest and fastest comparions they can find
[20:36] <fae{NR}> one where there is actually communication going on, and everything is consentual
[20:36] <_mizu_> yea right, i was better taken care of then at any time of my life when i was with Marisha
[20:37] <AlstrBlck> Now, as for my use of the word Man.. That's the impression most vanilla's seem to get. And when it's a strong-willed woman, she's not referred to as a Domme, but rather as a Bitch.
[20:37] <ravenshad> that is a nasty stereotype AB..but you're right, that is how many see us..
[20:38] <Azmadeus> Yewww......not a good streotype...(As if there was a good one)
[20:38] <ravenshad> Does being submissive mean you are submissive to everyone?
[20:38] <Azmadeus> LOL.....No......At least not in most cases....
[20:39] <Bugs42^> gosh, submissives are abused and Dom/me are abusers and bitches... doesn't sound good... do we perpetuate that?
[20:39] <_mizu_> nope, and i got into a ton of challenges over that one to
[20:39] <fae{NR}> in my case, not at all
[20:39] <ravenshad> I don't think we do Bugs..I think we try hard to dispell that perception..
[20:39] <AlstrBlck> No, Bugs, not us. It's those that don't understand this way of life that do.
[20:40] <fae{NR}> or more precisely AB, those who don't want to take the time to find out the truth
[20:40] <Azmadeus> Well.....we havent exactly got billboards up on the side of the highway to dispell the notion raven......
[20:40] <AlstrBlck> You've seen them, on talkshows... "My husband thinks I'm his slave", etc. You hear how he gets drunk and beats her, and from their, the narrowminded people assume we are like that, too.
[20:40] <ravenshad> true we don't Az...but we are generally speaking becoming more vocal..
[20:40] <AlstrBlck> heheheh I said should be, didn't say I was... <G> I was awake for 72 hours straight this week, got 5 hours of sleep, and am back at it.
[20:41] <Azmadeus> Yes.....a little.....but it is a small voice as yet....
[20:41] <ravenshad> is it really that small of a voice Az?
[20:41] <ravenshad> that's a different topic though..<giggle>
[20:42] * ntalia laffs. my master never got drunk. never allowed me more than two drinks an evening. saw to it that i worked at learning new skills.
[20:42] <_mizu_> Marisha never drank, she said she alway's had to much fun watching me (giggle)
[20:43] <Bugs42^> I am curious about what raven asked... as a submissive are you submissive to just anyone?
[20:43] <ntalia> oh no! to my master.
[20:43] <AlstrBlck> No, we don't, Azmadeus, but, we do have something. I've noticed a new genre of jpg's coming down the line. Instead of the usual hardcore BDSM, I've noticed more artistic bondage imagery coming thru. If that can change some people's perspective, good.
[20:43] <ntalia> i served all those who entered the house, but as a hostess, not as a slave.
[20:44] <ravenshad> I think that depends on the person Bugs..for me, I can be sub, in varying degrees, to more than just one person...
[20:44] <_mizu_> i have notied that to Sir, and some of the art drawing are great!
[20:44] <Bugs42^> was that your choice ntalia?
[20:45] <AlstrBlck> I've seen some stunning images, mizu, that are simply breathtaking. Artwork, too.
[20:45] <ntalia> my master required someone to take care of hostessing when he entertained. so that was service to him. but that was as any significant other would help with cocktail or dinner parties.
[20:46] <ntalia> in front of others, i sat at the table to eat dinner. when alone, i knelt at his side as he ate.
[20:46] <ravenshad> OK..let's play complete the sentence.. :)
[20:47] <ravenshad> fill in the blank.."I will not submit to....... ?
[20:47] <Bugs42^> anyone, other than my boss
[20:48] * ravenshad giggles...
[20:48] <ravenshad> now how did I know that??
[20:48] <_mizu_> demand's made out of rudeness
[20:48] * ravenshad ponders cattle prods to wake people up..(ooohhhh electric play)
[20:48] <ntalia> i do not know how to answer that. i was never asked to submit to anything that i didn't wish to do for my master. and now, it's just not meaningful
[20:50] <ravenshad> but I'm going to toss something out..read, and comment.. :)
[20:51] <Bugs42^> did you toss and I missed?
[20:51] <ravenshad> nope..opening it to paste
[20:52] <ravenshad> these are from an email I sent to a newsgroup..
[20:53] <ravenshad> question was: What is submission
[20:53] <ravenshad> Submission is giving control of myself to another. That's the technical
[20:53] <ravenshad> definition anyway. But it is so much more than that. It is emotional and
[20:53] <ravenshad> pyschological way before it is physical. Submission isn't a want for me,
[20:53] <ravenshad> it's a need, it isnt' something I do just for kicks or sexual thrills. It
[20:53] <ravenshad> is what I have to do. It is an integral part of who I am. Submission means
[20:53] <ravenshad> to me that I strive to please my master above myself, even if I'm not really
[20:53] <ravenshad> in the mood. It isn't just submitting to the pleasurable things but
[20:53] <ravenshad> submitting/accepting the nost so pleasurable things as well that do or will
[20:53] <ravenshad> please him. It isn't all sex, though that is included. It is service as
[20:53] <ravenshad> well. For me, it is more the service than the play. Things like making the
[20:53] <ravenshad> bed, cleaning the house, getting his coffee, and other household chores.
[20:53] <ravenshad> making our home a welcoming place for him to come home to. It's wearing the
[20:53] <ravenshad> clothes he likes seeing on me. It's striving to be the best I can be for
[20:53] <ravenshad> him. Submission is the mental knowledge of who is in charge, who makes the
[20:54] <ravenshad> final decisions. It is being able to trust someone else so deeply that
[20:54] <ravenshad> questioning their orders doesn't come to mind. Submission is being strong
[20:54] <ravenshad> enough within myself to be able to give what I am to another. It's being
[20:54] <ravenshad> secure enough within myself that I can freely choose to place another's
[20:54] <ravenshad> needs before my own, yet not lose my identity, instead enhance it through
[20:54] <ravenshad> the power exchange dynamic. It is an emotional bond that is so strong that a
[20:54] <ravenshad> simple look from my master speaks volumes to me where a sparkle in his eyes
[20:54] <ravenshad> is all I need to know I've done a good job, or a certain expression shows
[20:54] <ravenshad> that I did not do a good job. Submission which flows naturally from to me my
[20:54] <ravenshad> master is what brings me the greatest personal joy but can also bring
[20:54] <ravenshad> emoptional pain as well. It is knowing, even during times of confusion, deep
[20:54] <ravenshad> inside that I belong to my master no matter what. Though all of these parts
[20:54] <ravenshad> of submission I gain freedom to be all of who I am and to enjoy that. To
[20:54] <ravenshad> find pleasure in my need to please someone else. For me, as a service
[20:54] <ravenshad> orientated sub-slave, submission is who I am not just something I do. In the
[20:54] <ravenshad> right circumstances and with the right person, the depth of my submission
[20:54] <ravenshad> strengthens every day. Through this process I find inner peace, contentment,
[20:54] <ravenshad> happiness and satisfcation unlike anything I've ever experienced before. For
[20:54] <ravenshad> me, it completes me. I suppose I could live without D/s in my life, but I
[20:54] <ravenshad> would not have that deep sense of contentment that living D/s gives me and
[20:54] <ravenshad> that I could not completely empathize with until recently.
[20:54] <ravenshad> thoughts?
[20:54] <KimiD> pretty much how i feel
[20:55] <ravenshad> Does submission require love?
[20:55] <KimiD> no
[20:55] <ntalia> that fit me pretty well. it's why i'm so lost in life now cause i can't serve anymore.
[20:55] <Bugs42^> sounds like a slave in the right situation
[20:55] <KimiD> i think most times it happens but it does not require
[20:56] <sulis[TC]> no
[20:56] <ravenshad> why doesn't it require love?
[20:56] <_mizu_> love is not required, but it help's
[20:56] <ntalia> Reneee, we're having a discussion tonight about what is submission? what do you think of when you hear about submission as someone who isnt involved in D/s?
[20:56] <Talent> fear can replace love and respect.
[20:56] <KimiD> because there are people who enjoy simply serving
[20:56] <_mizu_> one can serve out of respect for the person, or as a student
[20:57] <ravenshad> does that enjoyment of service make part of the difference between a sub and a slave?
[20:57] <Reneee`> well.. Hmmm... I tried it once.. so I am a bit biased I guess.. it was a bad experience for me.
[20:57] <ravenshad> If that happens Talent, then in my opninion the relationship moves beyond BDSM and into the outskirts of abuse..
[20:57] <Talent> agreed, but submission can happen with out love
[20:57] <Bugs42^> what type of fear Talent?
[20:58] <ravenshad> yes it can Talent.. :)
[20:58] <Bugs42^> I agree, love is not required
[20:58] <Talent> any fear Bugs
[20:58] <KimiD> sub and slave are to closely related of words to me..i think it's what makes the difference between a bottom and a sub
[20:58] <ravenshad> I can agree with that Kimi.. :)
[20:58] <ntalia> my master and i never talked about love, but looking back,i realize that we did have love.
[20:58] <ravenshad> Should one's submission enhance the person they are, or detract from it?
[20:59] <sulis[TC]> and there is nothing abusive to wanting to serve someone out of deep respect for that person
[20:59] <Talent> enhance
[20:59] <_mizu_> for me it has helped me, taught me to care for others
[20:59] <ravenshad> you learned well mizu :)
[20:59] <ravenshad> I agree sulis.. :)
[20:59] <ntalia> i think there are times where submission means giving up some of who you are, but mostly, it enhances.
[21:00] <ravenshad> Is it giving up who you are, or being all of who you are?
[21:00] <sulis[TC]> but giveing up a part of you doesnt mean you are not getting something else in return and thus gaining from the loss
[21:01] <ravenshad> true sulis..
[21:01] <_mizu_> it shapes the person, difines them better
[21:01] <_mizu_> for me it gave me reason to be, something to be
[21:02] <ravenshad> By being a submissive does that mean you can't say no?
[21:03] <sulis[TC]> you can always say no but like anything else in life there are always consequences to any action you take
[21:03] <Bugs42^> you can say it, but I should have final say unless it is a hard limit
[21:03] <_mizu_> not by a long shot, Marisha gave me the right to say no if it was in her best intrest, but i had to justify my actions
[21:03] <ravenshad> OK ...does that mean if a dominant who you are not collared to, comes up to you and demands you kneel, can you say no?
[21:04] <ntalia> For me, i wished always to say yes. saying no wasn't my pleasure. though sometimes i argued because it was more exciting for my master to fight me.
[21:04] <sulis[TC]> yes of course
[21:04] <Talent> i hope so raven
[21:04] <ntalia> yes.
[21:04] <ravenshad> ok..just wanted to clarify that..
[21:04] <sulis[TC]> but you have to deal with the consequenced of that action
[21:04] <AlstrBlck> Yes you can say no, raven.
[21:04] <_mizu_> yeap, unless MY Mistress as ordered me to do so out of respect to them
[21:04] <ravenshad> agreed sulis.. :)
[21:04] <AlstrBlck> It's not just a matter of being Dom, but it's a matter or respect, too.
[21:05] <Bugs42^> yes... you can say no in that instance
[21:05] <ravenshad> Does submission touch every part of your lives? Or is it just something for on again off again sexual encounters?
[21:05] <sulis[TC]> IF that Dom happens to be someone who your Dom gives permission to ask you to kneel you sure as hell better kneel or you are disobeying your owner
[21:05] <ravenshad> I have to agree there sulis.. :)
[21:05] <_mizu_> it made raven, so no it is a part of my life now
[21:06] <sulis[TC]> but conversely if you do kneel and your Dom disapproves you have to deal with that too
[21:06] <ravenshad> true sulis..
[21:06] <ravenshad> Obedience is a part of submission then?
[21:06] <Bugs42^> I see my slaves submission as a 24/7 life and therefore it is always there
[21:06] <ravenshad> ummm, in case you don't know, I'm not the only one who can toss out questions here.. :)
[21:06] <Talent> isnt obedience submission?
[21:06] <_mizu_> yes, that and honor to your Mistress or Master
[21:07] <ravenshad> partly, yes I believe it is Talent..
[21:07] <ravenshad> Are there different levels of submission?
[21:08] <ravenshad> but I don't think blind obedience is part of submission..
[21:08] <sulis[TC]> yes i believe there are
[21:08] <Talent> i dont think there are levels to it
[21:09] <ravenshad> What levels would you say exist sulis?
[21:09] <ravenshad> why not Talent?
[21:09] <Talent> either you submit or you dont.
[21:09] <Talent> if you dont submit your not submisive.
[21:09] <ravenshad> would a person who submits only during a session/scene or preset arrangement not be a submissive on some level?
[21:09] <sulis[TC]> well when he puts it that way it is hard to argue with that logic
[21:10] <ravenshad> I think there are levels of submission..
[21:10] <Talent> raven: only during those scenes or set rules.
[21:10] <ntalia> i think there are people that are situational submissives. some who are full time submissives. both are valid.
[21:10] <ravenshad> think for a moment, at the beginning of a relationship, a submisive may not do as many things as they would 6 months or a year later..their submission has deepened as the level of trust has grown...
[21:10] <Bugs42^> I agree you either do or don't submit, but is it all the time or part time and do you have a ton of limits?
[21:10] <ravenshad> I can agree with that Talent, but I call them bottoms.. :)
[21:11] <sulis[TC]> but i think that people chooose to submit once and a while or they choose to submit 24/7
[21:11] <sulis[TC]> in that sense there are levels to it
[21:11] <ravenshad> Is choosing to submit 24/7 more difficult?
[21:12] <AlstrBlck> In your suggested case, Talent, a sub walking down the street, accosted by every man who says "Hey Baby, let's f*ck" would have to submit to him.
[21:13] <Talent> Uhm, thats out of the context i ment Alstr
[21:13] <Bugs42^> was it for you raven?
[21:14] <ravenshad> in some ways Yes Sir it was..in others, no it wasn't..
[21:14] <Bugs42^> could you explain raven?
[21:15] <ravenshad> I had only lived a 24/7 relationship for a short while, over a year and half ago now..maybe two years..
[21:15] <ravenshad> anyway..I got burned big time..so there was fear from that..which held me back in a few areas..
[21:15] <ravenshad> submitting my body was easy..bruises etc can and will heal
[21:15] <ravenshad> submitting my heart is proving more difficult...those wounds take longer to heal..
[21:16] <_mizu_> it alway's dose raven
[21:17] <ravenshad> true mizu..
[21:17] <sulis[TC]> i think my biggest difficulty is trust it is really hard to trust anyone to make decisions for you and not second guess them sometimes
[21:17] <ravenshad> I can understand that sulis..that is true..
[21:17] <ravenshad> how does one deal with that though?
[21:18] <ravenshad> is it something that eases over time?
[21:18] <_mizu_> live, it is all you can do
[21:18] <sulis[TC]> i tell myself to shut up or **puts hands up to her mouth**i get in trouble
[21:18] <Talent> hehehehe
[21:19] * ravenshad giggles..I think we all do that sometimes..I know I have been biting my tongue so much my taste buds don't work right anymore..
[21:19] <sulis[TC]> you get to a point where you get to trust most of the decisions being made
[21:19] <Bugs42^> as the trust grows, I think it would ease
[21:19] <ntalia> when a master inspires trust, and has earned trust it is easy to submit.
[21:19] <sulis[TC]> but there is always some doubt that maybe he doesnt have all the information he needs to make that decision
[21:19] <ntalia> but it takes time to earn trust.
[21:19] <sulis[TC]> i think that just makes you human
[21:20] <ravenshad> I've noticed that for me, it is situational whether or not I question something..
[21:20] <sulis[TC]> but i trust Talent with my life and there are still times that i question the directions he leads me in
[21:21] <sulis[TC]> definetly situational
[21:21] <Bugs42^> do you question out loud?
[21:22] <sulis[TC]> i try not to
[21:22] * Talent brings out the Ducttape
[21:22] <ravenshad> sometimes yes..sometimes no
[21:22] <ravenshad> Does questioning things from time to time, make one not a submissive?
[21:23] <Bugs42^> how does your Dom/me respond to being questioned?
[21:23] <ravenshad> depends on the situation and how it is stated..
[21:23] <ntalia> no, it makes one a sentient being.
[21:24] <Bugs42^> I do not mind being questioned.... I am not perfect, but it best be worded carefully
[21:24] <Talent> i myself dont mind being questioned to a point.
[21:24] <sulis[TC]> i dont think so because i know in my heart that if it came right down to it i would do whatever he siad regardless of my own misgivings on the subject
[21:25] <Bugs42^> and you raven? does it make you less submissive feeling?
[21:26] <ravenshad> depends on the situation..but usually I do not like questioning my dominant..it is not a comfortable thing for me to do..
[21:26] <Bugs42^> I see it as necessary at times and would expevt it
[21:29] * ravenshad is out of questions..anyone wanna toss one out?
[21:30] <sulis[TC]> i am to tired to think right now
[21:31] <Bugs42^> have fun and don't foget the required legal jargon raven
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