Presents:
BDSM Discussion 4
Safe,
Sane, Consensual AKA SSC
All Comments Posted Here With Permission Of The Participants
[20:10] * ravenshad says
Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions on BDSM the
following rules apply..
[20:11] <ravenshad> you must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave
[20:11] <ravenshad> legal age being 18 or 21 depending on your local laws..
[20:11] <ravenshad> no trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night
[20:12] <ravenshad> if you troll, you are apt to be kicked from channel and possibly banned
[20:12] <ravenshad> be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[20:12] <ravenshad> all statements are publishable on the web site, with nicks changed (at your request, email webmaster@leathernroses.com if you don't want your nick used.
[20:13] <ravenshad> OK...I figured we could cover SSC (safe sane consensual) tonight..
[20:13] <ravenshad> I realize this is a hot topic, in that it can create arguments so easily, so I ask that everyone please have patience and keep an open mind..
[20:14] <ravenshad> SSC is being touted as the "mantra" so to speak of BDSM...Do you think that all this pushing of SSC has diluted the original intent of the words?
[20:14] <Bugs42`> Yes!
[20:14] <ravenshad> Ohhh..emphatic tonight aren't we Sir??
[20:14] * ravenshad grins..
[20:14] <Tatsumi> personally, i think the words themsleves have no special weight to them. and that people use the SSC slogan instead of their brains
[20:14] <Soulhuntr> Nope - I think it was always intended as a mantra... so this is right on target.
[20:15] <ravenshad> I agree Tatsumi..
[20:15] <Tatsumi> :)
[20:15] <ravenshad> I can't speak on what the intention was, my understanding is that the intention was to make BDSM "safer" for those involved..
[20:15] <ravenshad> though..I do wonder if the intention was not also to make BDSM more acceptable in general..
[20:15] <ravenshad> what do you think?
[20:15] <Bugs42`> I see it as a nice catch phrase, but it is the individuals that determine their meaning
[20:16] <ravenshad> I agree Bugs..
[20:16] <_mizu_> most of what i have done would not be considered "safe" by most people, but it was consensual
[20:16] <Soulhuntr> It's purpose, IMHO was to try and give us a 'defemse' in the eyes of the vanilla world.
[20:16] <ravenshad> that's a point..just who defines what is safe?
[20:17] <ravenshad> I can see that Soul...and would that be a bad thing considering the risks we take by living BDSM?
[20:17] <ravenshad> risks meaning: losing jobs, kids..etc.
[20:17] <Tatsumi> SSC has not lessened those risks
[20:18] <Tatsumi> remember the Haughtens?
[20:18] <Tatsumi> <sp>
[20:18] <ravenshad> no it hasn't Tat...I wish it had though...
[20:18] <_mizu_> not realy raven, thoes can be done without having the lifestyle brought into it in the present day world
[20:18] <Soulhuntr> Yes... I think it is a bad thing... because it doesn;t protect us as a group, and leave out in the cold the more extreme elements.
[20:18] <ravenshad> ummm..nope I don't remember them..explain please?
[20:19] <Tatsumi> a married couple videotaped a scene for personal viewing later
[20:19] <Soulhuntr> There is an analogy in the gay community - in an attempt to be acceopted, a group of advocates got together to tell the world that they wanted what straights wanted, monogomy and so on.
[20:19] <Tatsumi> a "freind" found the tape and gave it to the cops
[20:19] <ravenshad> I have to agree with that Soul..it does abandon those who are more extreme ...which in my opinion, goes against the whole "open mind" and tolerance thing...
[20:19] <Soulhuntr> In the process, they left out in the cold the non-monogamous gays... and left them to the wolves.
[20:19] <ravenshad> Ahhhh..yes I remember that now... that was nasty.. :(
[20:19] <Tatsumi> they were arrested and their children put into foster care
[20:20] <Tatsumi> the case took over a year and cost thousands
[20:20] <sulis-tax> that is rediculous I assume that the children where not in the video tats am i correct
[20:20] <Tatsumi> yes sulis
[20:20] <Bugs42`> seems that SSC tries to set a standard.. the same one for everyone
[20:20] <ravenshad> yes sulis..but that doesn't matter when it comes to BdSM..
[20:20] <Tatsumi> the tape stated upfront that both people were doing this b/c they liked it and loved each other, etc
[20:20] <Tatsumi> even quoted the SSC slogan in the tape
[20:21] <Tatsumi> it didn't matter
[20:21] <ravenshad> many don't even know that the DSMIV has changed the definition of masochist and submissive etc..so it is no longer classified as a psychological illness...unless it encompases and hinders the person's life..
[20:21] <AlstrBlck> I have always said that anything 2 (or more) consenting adults do, in private or on video, is nobody's concern, until and unless they choose to make it so.
[20:21] * chensay agrees
[20:21] <Tatsumi> they were arrested for battery i think
[20:21] <ravenshad> I agree that those pushing SSC are trying to set a "standard" for the entire lifestyle..problem with doing that is the lifestyle is too varied to find many commonalities across the board..
[20:21] <sulis-tax> i dont understand why our court systme would do that I mean what differnece is what i do in bed with my husband do hetero vanilla people have the same problems with video taping themeselves
[20:21] <Tatsumi> and then for endangering a minor
[20:22] <ravenshad> exactly Tats..endangering a minor..
[20:22] <ravenshad> then add in.."best interest of the child" sulis..those who are in BDSM are considered unfit parents.. :(
[20:22] * _mizu_ giggles
[20:22] <Tatsumi> anyone remember the resultion of the case?
[20:22] <ntalia> i think the problem with SSC is not the concept, but the degree to which it is pushed.
[20:23] <ntalia> i don't think most would like to do harm to a partner, but there is risk inherent in much of what we do. and the degree of risk becomes an issue for those proposing ssc.
[20:23] <ravenshad> I'm sorry Tats, but I don't remember..
[20:23] <Bugs42`> I agree ntalia, but the concept is taken as a standard
[20:24] <sulis-tax> i personally am watching a court case about a woman who has a husband and live in boyfriend and the custody of the groups children.
[20:24] <_mizu_> i agree with talia, i know my limit's and to some they are extreame, but i recieve more injures fighting in a acceptble sport then BDSM
[20:24] <Tatsumi> too bad. i lost contact with the couple and the case after Philip died
[20:24] <AlstrBlck> raven, do you remember that story I sent you a while back?
[20:24] <ntalia> certainly anyone who is vanilla looking at what we do wouldn't call it safe or sane. but i watch skydivers and wonder the same with them....
[20:25] <Tatsumi> good point talia
[20:25] <ravenshad> should we, as a whole, set regulations that would ensure physical safety for those in the lifestyle?
[20:25] <ravenshad> Yes..a few weeks ago right?
[20:25] <sulis-tax> they want to take her kids because she lives consesually with the two men
[20:25] <ravenshad> exactly talia...
[20:25] <Soulhuntr> No.
[20:26] <ravenshad> I hope they don't win sulis..that's a stupid reason to take someone's kids..
[20:26] <sulis-tax> how could you do that
[20:26] <Tatsumi> No Raven
[20:26] <Bugs42`> no, no regulations
[20:26] <chensay> i dont think so...
[20:26] <Soulhuntr> All that such a set of rules will do is fragment us.
[20:26] <_mizu_> there is no way that could be done raven
[20:26] <ravenshad> But, aren't we already fragmented?
[20:26] * ravenshad is playing devil's advocate..
[20:26] <Tatsumi> we are Raven?
[20:26] <ravenshad> I agree that it shouldn't be done..
[20:26] <Tatsumi> explain please?
[20:26] <ravenshad> ok...
[20:26] <ntalia> can we agree that consensual is a requirement. that the only person you are allowed to involve in a non-consensual scene is one who has already agreed that it's acceptable to be involved in a rape type scene?
[20:27] <Bugs42`> we are not as fragmented as we would be
[20:27] <chensay> its too easy to get into my kink is ok and yours isnt with regulations... i want what i do between me and my Domme..
[20:27] <_mizu_> only by the one's who want to be accepted as "publicy acceptible behaivor"
[20:27] <ravenshad> This is just from what I've seen, which isn't an excessive amount, but..many in BDSM look down on anyone who enjoys something different from themselves..
[20:27] <ravenshad> labelling quickly the person as "unsafe" and someone to be wary of..
[20:27] <Tatsumi> sure, but that's true anywhere Raven
[20:27] <ravenshad> edge play for example..those who enjoy it, aren't as welcome by those who don't..
[20:27] <ravenshad> true it does Tats...but should it happen in BDSM?
[20:27] <sulis-tax> lets not get into the black balling issue
[20:28] <Bugs42`> that is true, there are many holier than thous in our lifestyle, I see that as a defense
[20:28] <Tatsumi> should? no
[20:28] <sulis-tax> that always back fires
[20:28] <ravenshad> I agree sulis..
[20:28] <Tatsumi> but lots of stuff "shouldn't be"
[20:28] <ravenshad> but it happens far too often..
[20:28] <sulis-tax> because who gets to choose what is not safe
[20:28] <ravenshad> true Tats..but I think that by discussing it ..we may be able to promote a more tolerant mindset in people..
[20:28] <sulis-tax> who makes the rules
[20:29] <_mizu_> and we will have world peace, yea right
[20:29] <ravenshad> I don't know..but I do recall someone mentioning the rules for a submissive that some group came up with..
[20:29] <Bugs42`> if a choice is to be made by me, I would rather promote tolerance than SSC
[20:29] <ravenshad> rules that give the sub a lot of control in a relationship..
[20:29] <Tatsumi> it's possible, but if the mailing lists are any indication, tolerance is not something that can be acchieved by talk alone
[20:29] <ravenshad> Depends on the list Tats..but I think you're right
[20:29] <ravenshad> many lists become cliques...
[20:29] <Tatsumi> yup
[20:30] <Tatsumi> the only rulw i can think of is THINK
[20:30] <ravenshad> Does this fragmentation (or intolerance) possibly make the lifestyle more dangerous?
[20:30] <Tatsumi> how so?
[20:30] <_mizu_> no, just more fragmented becasue no one wishes to learn
[20:31] <ravenshad> By preventing information about more controversial practices from reaching the ears/eyes of those who want to learn?
[20:31] <ravenshad> for example..gun play..
[20:31] <chensay> i think all the information should be available and if its not your thing you dont do it..
[20:31] <ravenshad> I was recently involved in a discussion about gun play..the person who started the posts (yes a list) was immediately branded a "psychopathic killer" and reamed big time..
[20:31] <Tatsumi> that's why websites and books and mailing lists exist
[20:31] <Tatsumi> to provide info for those who want it
[20:31] <Soulhuntr> Was that me?
[20:32] <Soulhuntr> it's soo hard to keep it straight :)
[20:32] <ravenshad> In this case..any actual information he imparted, was lost among the flames..
[20:32] <ravenshad> no Soul..not my list.. :)
[20:32] * _mizu_ bow's to Cherrie saying, "greetings"
[20:32] <Cherrie> hello A/all
[20:32] <ravenshad> a different list..but I remember that discussion on the other list..
[20:32] <Tatsumi> lol raven
[20:32] <AlstrBlck> I've been "attacked" by an 18 year old girl for saying that the dog collar she wore symbolized submissiviness. She and her friends flamed me like you would not believe!
[20:32] <Tatsumi> that makes us crazy i guess:)
[20:32] <AlstrBlck> She is now a masochist, into pain, and one of her friends is a crack head...
[20:32] <ravenshad> Does that increase the chances of someone trying such a scene without knowing possible safety issues?
[20:32] * chensay likes collars *smiles*
[20:33] <_mizu_> humm, that's actualy a fashion statement in some areas now Sir, mostly the Goth sceen's
[20:33] <Tatsumi> fashion collars annoy me
[20:33] <ravenshad> that's justice for you AB.. LOL
[20:33] <Tatsumi> i doubt it raven
[20:33] <Soulhuntr> True enough.... makes me want to grab the ring and see if they have any clue what they are playign with :)
[20:34] <_mizu_> ohh yea
[20:34] <KimiD> perk?
[20:34] * ravenshad giggles..now that would be cute..
[20:34] * chensay grins
[20:34] <ravenshad> ok..sane..
[20:34] <_mizu_> but they are not very well made, would break easly (done it) (giggle)
[20:34] <ravenshad> what the hell is sane??
[20:34] <Tatsumi> if someone goes into a scene w/o knowing the saftey issues, they are stupid and no amount of SSC sloganing is going to help them
[20:34] <ravenshad> I agree Tats... :)
[20:35] <_mizu_> that's true
[20:35] * ravenshad has a picture of her mother wearing a beautiful choker necklace..would make a wonderful daily collar...<g>
[20:36] * ravenshad repeats.."What is sane?"
[20:36] <Bugs42`> to me safe is what my sub and I decide and only we know if we are sane and if there is no consent we do not do it, but as the Dom, I prefer having the say in the safe and consent portions
[20:36] <Tatsumi> i'm not even going there Raven
[20:37] <Tatsumi> it's too personal to define
[20:37] * chensay giggles and glances over to the nice men in white jackets and doesnt answer about sane
[20:37] <ravenshad> having the say in the consent portions?
[20:37] <AlstrBlck> "Sane" is where you find your own comfort. One's sanity is another's insanity.
[20:37] <ravenshad> yes it is very personal and difficult to define Tats...
[20:37] <_mizu_> sane, is what is difined by popular culture of the time
[20:37] <Tatsumi> :)
[20:38] <sulis-tax> yes and no mizu
[20:38] <Bugs42`> when the sub agreed to be my sub, she showed she trusted me and my judgement, granted there mat be times when she does not want to do something but I do
[20:38] <ravenshad> I agree AB..but is there a line where even those of us in BDSM cross into the "insane" area?
[20:38] <ntalia> for me sane talks about not taking advantage of someone who is looking for a quick f*** because they're depressed. or not taking advantage of a person's intoxication.
[20:38] <ravenshad> Ahhh..I see Bugs...so would you then not allow a safe word?
[20:38] * chensay agrees with talia
[20:39] <ravenshad> good point talia..
[20:39] <Bugs42`> I do not like tsafe words but yes, it is allowed
[20:39] <AlstrBlck> raven, I know my limits. I pkayed around with electricity with a friend, and she enjoyed it. When she started getting into have a stun gun pressed to her ass, 10,000 volts or something like that, that's where Ii said she passed my limits.
[20:39] <chensay> ouch? *giggles*
[20:39] <sulis-tax> i mean what you consider sane and what i consider to be sane maybe to totally different things
[20:40] <SirWolf> 10000 volts isn't playing,,,
[20:40] <ravenshad> I agree with that sulis but again, is there a measurement that can be used (or yardstick so to speak) where one would be considered beyond the limits of sanity?
[20:40] <_mizu_> nope, not at all
[20:40] <ntalia> i think a safeword is an interesting idea, but the word "no" or "stop" should have power. i was lucky with my master, but i could see with a new partner needing something to let them know my limits.
[20:41] <Bugs42`> it's back to know who you play with and talk
[20:41] <Tatsumi> and THINK
[20:41] <sulis-tax> But safewords are not always practical
[20:41] <ntalia> yes Bugs sir, but there is always a first time so there is always a learning period
[20:41] <ravenshad> true they aren't..
[20:41] <KimiD> <--agrees with sulis
[20:42] <ravenshad> we covered safewords a few weeks ago..<giggle>
[20:42] <ravenshad> Has SSC somehow made BDSM more difficult than it should be?
[20:42] <Bugs42`> we all go through learning periods and if we were smart we learned then played
[20:42] <SirWolf> Soul,,, if you've never seen one used ,,, there not
[20:42] <_mizu_> yeap, that is the only way thing's should be handled, between the two people who know there limit's and how they should go about trying something new
[20:42] <sulis-tax> I mean When you are off in your own world I couldnt mutter daddy let alone a safe word
[20:43] <sulis-tax> and what if you are gagged
[20:43] <sulis-tax> then what
[20:43] * chensay doesnt like gags
[20:43] <sulis-tax> Talent knows kat and i so well that he can tell when something is not right
[20:43] <sulis-tax> i trust that he will take our interests at heart or i would not be here
[20:44] <Bugs42`> would you allow yourself to be gagged by a stranger sulis-tax?
[20:44] <Tatsumi> i'm not a fan of safewords, but there are ways to communicate a safeword w/o verbal means. it could be a hand signal or a head toss, or whatever
[20:44] <sulis-tax> I personally would not play with someone i dont trust with my life
[20:44] <AlstrBlck> The woman I mentioned, who got into electricity, she was EXTREMELY stubborn, and would NEVER use a safe-word. I saw her hands turning blue one night, the rope got twisted, and she wouldn't say it. I caught it, and cut the ropes and made her take a break, and she was upset about it.
[20:44] <KimiD> it's TRUE!
[20:44] <_mizu_> right, and i am a blind person
[20:44] <Tatsumi> no comment
[20:45] <ravenshad> ok..we're going off into safeword land...
[20:46] <cyn{Wolf}> we talked about implied consenuality yet?
[20:46] <ravenshad> nope..was waiting for a response..
[20:46] <ravenshad> Has SSC somehow made BDSM more difficult than it should be?
[20:46] <ravenshad> to that ^^^^^^^^^^^
[20:46] <Bugs42`> ok, SSC, I see it as ok for the new people, but it is in most cases not a reality as a standard
[20:46] <Soulhuntr> Yeah.. I think so.
[20:46] <Soulhuntr> I think it divides us.
[20:46] <ravenshad> divides us into what?
[20:46] <_mizu_> for the person looking into it for the frist time, yes
[20:47] <ntalia> i think if you're talking about two consenting adults in their own home, no. it hasn't made it more difficult.
[20:47] <ntalia> but if yoú're talking about play parties, then yes. it would make it tougher.
[20:48] <ravenshad> I think it makes it more difficult to find tolerance within our "community" not just play parties..
[20:48] <ravenshad> Everyone agrees that consent is what seperates BDSM from abuse..
[20:48] <Cherrie> raven,,on SSC,,,I am finding that some have not heard of it, or they roll their eyes
[20:48] <ravenshad> Just when is consent given?
[20:48] <ravenshad> I roll my eyes now Cherrie.. LOL
[20:48] * ravenshad has grown..
[20:49] <sulis-tax> yeah i agree raven
[20:49] <Steven> <----wonders just what is the safest way to enter the world you all live in?
[20:49] <Soulhuntr> I think the point of consent varies radically from person to person.
[20:49] <Bugs42`> I am surprised that they have not heard of it
[20:49] <_mizu_> when you say "ok, do me"
[20:49] <Soulhuntr> And I think it means different things to different people.
[20:49] * chensay gives concent when she crawls across the floor with the flogger in her mouth then begs....
[20:49] <Tatsumi> Steven, go to a PEP meeting or TES or some other informative, no-play environment
[20:49] <Tatsumi> watch, listen, and learn
[20:49] <ravenshad> safest way..I'd say through cyber...very little chance of any physical injury..
[20:49] <ravenshad> also..local groups in real life that are in your area..
[20:49] <AlstrBlck> The community I live in, thanx to this wonderful man, if the police so much as suspect you hit a woman, whether she was WILLING OR NOT, will arrest you.
[20:50] <Steven> What is PEP or TES?
[20:50] <Tatsumi> PEP = people exchanging power
[20:50] <Tatsumi> TES = the eugenspiel <sp> society
[20:50] <Steven> Thanks.....
[20:51] <ravenshad> Both have web sites I believe Steven..with numbers or adresses where they can be contacted..
[20:51] <Tatsumi> D/s discussion groups that have demos and lectures and panels, etc..
[20:51] <Soulhuntr> www.tes.org I think :)
[20:51] <Soulhuntr> Thats an interesting question... when do you consider yourself to have given consent?
[20:51] <_mizu_> consent for me, was if they could cuff me, at times the was uhhmm a bit rough at times
[20:51] <Tatsumi> when the collar goes on
[20:51] <cyn{Wolf}> consent...when I submit..not until
[20:52] <Bugs42`> I believe that blanket consent is given when the agreement to Master/sub is made
[20:52] <KimiD> when i walked through the door
[20:52] <ravenshad> I consider myself to have given consent when I submit to someone..though for me, blanket consent takes place when a collar is placed..
[20:52] <chensay> my concent was given when i was collared
[20:52] <_mizu_> when i allow the cuff's to go on without a fight
[20:53] <ravenshad> gee Bugs..you said that clearer than I did..thanks :)
[20:53] <Bugs42`> is there a time when specific consent is needed?
[20:53] <sulis-tax> thats a good ? it has just always been an unspoken thing between us
[20:53] <Tatsumi> not for me Raven
[20:53] <sulis-tax> i dont remember a specific time i said ok you can spank me or ok you can tie me up
[20:53] <sulis-tax> it just happened
[20:53] <_mizu_> but that is how i was trained
[20:54] <ravenshad> I think that would be up to the people involved, but in general I'd say in a play partner arrangement, consent should be given before the play begins..
[20:54] <sulis-tax> i think it depends on the relationship you are in
[20:54] * chensay agrees with raven
[20:54] <Soulhuntr> ::nods:: Personally, I am much more comfortable with a physical symbol, a necklace, a collar, a wrist band or anklet... these sorts of things.
[20:54] <sulis-tax> i mean in a 24/7 one prolly not but in a play one prolly yes
[20:54] <ravenshad> under other general things I'd say consent to something new may be needed...or for a scene that is beyond the "norm" for the couple..(highly dependent upon those involved)
[20:55] <Bugs42`> agreed raven, that is when I see a specific consent is needed
[20:55] <^noelle> at first consent is a step by step thing until both players are comfortable with each other..as the relationship goes, that grows as does the trust to try other things
[20:55] <ravenshad> I like the physical symbol as well Soul..
[20:55] <ravenshad> that is true noelle..
[20:55] <ravenshad> but that brings in this question..
[20:56] <Bugs42`> what does the physical symbol do for you?
[20:56] <ravenshad> once a relationship grows to a comitted one (collared, or otherwise verbally comitted) should the consent then be one of "blanket" nature?
[20:56] <Tatsumi> when i accept a collar, i am giving blanket consent that only ends when the relationship ends
[20:56] <KimiD> i would say so raven..for me
[20:56] <sulis-tax> i think so raven
[20:56] <ravenshad> it's difficult to explain Bugs..it's an emotional completeness for me..
[20:57] <_mizu_> if it goes that far raven, then the two people know eachother very well, and should know the limit's by heart
[20:57] <Bugs42`> the key there raven is "should" and I see that as between the individuals as to whether it should or not
[20:57] <Soulhuntr> In a collared relationship, it is a constant symbol of blanket consent .. even in a non collared relationship, it is a good way to symbolize what is going on... for her and for me.
[20:57] <ravenshad> tangible evidence of comittment
[20:57] <^noelle> except for hard limits.. soft limits it should be a matter of trust to push at the edges maybe ..but by then i think it just becomes a blanket .. new things would need to be discussed first though
[20:57] <ravenshad> ahhh but mizu, people are famous for rushing into things..specially those things which touch them deeply..
[20:58] <Bugs42`> thank you raven and Soulhuntr, that makes sense
[20:58] <ravenshad> Well said Soul!! Thanks.. :))
[20:58] <AlstrBlck> I know that all too well, raven....
[20:59] <ravenshad> are there any situations you can think of where an assumption of consent should not exist?
[20:59] <ravenshad> me too AB..me too..
[20:59] <SirWolf> first time meeting in r/l
[20:59] <Tatsumi> people in general rush into things. that's why many marraiges are ending so soon after they begin and so many collars are being taken off so lightly. it's a shame, i think
[20:59] <Bugs42`> yes, raven, I would not assume consent to share my sub
[21:00] <Soulhuntr> ::nods:: It definately is, I agree.
[21:00] <ravenshad> that's a good situation to not assume consent.. :)
[21:00] <ravenshad> I agree Tats..
[21:00] <Bugs42`> that would have to be specific
[21:00] <^noelle> yes raven, like bringing in other people
[21:00] <Tatsumi> i don't think there is any situation like that for me
[21:01] <sulis-tax> well it is possible to assume consent on bringing a third in but it normally works out better dynamics wise if everyone likes eachother
[21:01] <ravenshad> I remember a while back, speaking with a woman who says she is sub...she said she would withdraw consent from a situation at any time and that she has that right..is doing this, abusing/manipulating what consent really is?
[21:02] <Tatsumi> not to me Raven
[21:02] <cyn{Wolf}> personally, i wouldn't want to have to give consent after i had offered my submission and been collared. My trust bond is blanket consent ..if He/She breaks that trust..then that would be a problem
[21:02] <ravenshad> can you think of a situation where withdrawing consent would be wrong?
[21:02] <Bugs42`> I would say yes, raven
[21:02] <Soulhuntr> Not to me.... but people get to define it for themselves.
[21:02] <sulis-tax> well truly except for your word you can always choose to leave any situation you just ahve to deal with the consiquences
[21:03] <Soulhuntr> It is becomming clear to me that you cannot micro manage consent. You either have it, and use it, or you don;t have it.
[21:03] <ravenshad> the situation in which she withdrew consent was she was to be punished for doing something wrong, and she didn't want to accept it..so withdrew consent..(yes a collared relationship)
[21:03] <_mizu_> yes raven, if she is doing it because she want to, not because she is in trouble
[21:03] <Bugs42`> I would have released her, no discussion
[21:03] <AlstrBlck> Then she wasn't a true sub, raven.
[21:04] <^noelle> ravenshad..i think it would be wrong if you did it just because you were scared of something..instead of just letting them know that you're frightened
[21:04] <KimiD> we can't say that..you'd have to know what it was and if it was "honorable" or not
[21:04] <Tatsumi> then she doesn't belong in a relationship Raven
[21:04] <ravenshad> ahhh..but according to some who preach SSC, she was within her rights as an empowered submissive to withdraw consent at any time..
[21:04] <Soulhuntr> I wont judge their relationship - it wouldnt have happened here.
[21:04] <Tatsumi> MHO of course:)
[21:05] * ravenshad said it was manipulation and topping from the bottom..
[21:05] <_mizu_> but was the punishment any harsher than the normal level of play?
[21:05] <Bugs42`> that is one of the problems with preachers
[21:05] <AlstrBlck> If she did something wrong, and expected that she could withdrawl consent for the punishment due, then she would begin winthdrawing consent for EVERYTHING.
[21:05] <cyn{Wolf}> can't withdraw consent as manipulation then..or there is no trust
[21:05] <Tatsumi> it's not honorable to duck your obligations and refuse to take responsibiltity for your acxtions
[21:06] <ntalia> she is within her rights to withdraw consent. but if it had been my master and i had withdrawn consent, it could have destroyed our relationship
[21:06] <_mizu_> if not, then she was escaping because she wanted the power
[21:06] <Bugs42`> I agree and that is something I believe is"special" about bdsm people... the honor required
[21:06] <^noelle> she is within her rights to do it, but it sounds like she did it for the wrong reasons..but don't really know the whole story
[21:06] * ravenshad scrolls back
[21:06] <AlstrBlck> I agree, raven.
[21:07] <ravenshad> no mizu..it wasn't..nor was it beyond her limits..she just felt that to be punished for what she did was "unfair"
[21:07] <AlstrBlck> But let's ask. If she withdrew her consent, but got punished anyway, what are the consequences that could of happened?
[21:07] <ntalia> i never thought about withdrawing consent. my master had earned my trust. to withdraw consent would be to say i didn't trust him.
[21:07] <ravenshad> I agree talia..
[21:08] <Tatsumi> when did D/s become fair? lol
[21:08] <_mizu_> true talia
[21:08] <^noelle> if she withdrew consent and was punished anyway ...if it were me, i don't think i could trust that person easily or at all again
[21:08] <ravenshad> that's what I said Tatsumi!! hehehehehe
[21:08] <ntalia> i think there's got to be a difference between a master and slave and someone who is simply partnering for a night at a party or in a less committed relationship
[21:08] <Bugs42`> the T word, I would rather hear trust than SSC anyday
[21:08] <ravenshad> no..she wasn't punished anyway..when the dom moved to saying the collar was his consent..she cried "abuse" and he released her..
[21:08] <_mizu_> good point Sir
[21:08] <Soulhuntr> <- tried, still tries, to make it fair.... but I am working on fixing that :)
[21:09] <ravenshad> Does anyone know when SSC came into being anyway?
[21:09] * ravenshad can't find an answer to that..
[21:09] <Bugs42`> I see fair as determined by the relationship
[21:09] <AlstrBlck> I thought you were going to say that, raven.... She sounded spoilt to me, too, now.
[21:10] <Bugs42`> I first heard it a year or so ago on the Internet
[21:10] <Tatsumi> i'm glad he released her.
[21:10] <AlstrBlck> SSC sounds like a "politically correct" term to me...
[21:10] <ravenshad> I'm on a newsgroup AB..and situations like the one I mention are common there..and the sub's are patted on the back for being so "strong" and refusing to accept punishment they felt was unfair..
[21:10] <Tatsumi> she doesn't sound mature enough to handle a D/s relationship
[21:10] <AlstrBlck> which newsgroup, raven? msg it to me.
[21:11] <ravenshad> I'm not sure if it's a maturity isuue..or an issue that is related to this pushing of sub rights...
[21:11] <Bugs42`> If their relationships on that other newsgroup work that way, great... I couldn't do it
[21:11] <Tatsumi> sub's rights? no such thing in my house
[21:11] <_mizu_> never knew anything about it until i got on-line here
[21:11] <ntalia> she sounds to me like she's interested in D/s play, but isn't ready for a D/s relationship.
[21:11] <ravenshad> I agree talia..
[21:11] <Tatsumi> priveldges, yes. rights? never
[21:12] * _mizu_ giggles
[21:12] * ^noelle has to agree to ntalia
[21:12] <Bugs42`> sounds like we are putting this in an US and THEM way... are we being elitist or cliquish?
[21:13] <ravenshad> probably.. :)
[21:13] <Bugs42`> they are different, does that make them wrong?
[21:13] <Tatsumi> i'm not trying to - just saying what's true for this house IMO
[21:13] <AlstrBlck> Everyone of us growing up, we knew the rule... We did something wrong, we got punished. it wasn't abuse, getting spanked for breaking a vase, it was a learning lesson.
[21:13] <ntalia> in a relationship there is trust. a master wouldn't want to really hurt what belonged to him.
[21:13] <ravenshad> I'm just trying to discuss the way SSC has affected people..
[21:13] <AlstrBlck> Sounds to me like she didn't want her lesson...
[21:14] <ravenshad> No Bugs it doesn't make them wrong...but does it give them the right to be the ones setting the so called "role models" for the rest of us?
[21:14] <_mizu_> it dose not bother me raven, i never worry about them
[21:15] <Bugs42`> No it doesn't raven, but that is back to being open minded, what works for me may not for others... and that is why I do not like SSC, it tries, as I said, to set a standard
[21:15] <ravenshad> Actually AB..I know very few people who want to be punished.. LOL
[21:15] <sulis-tax> It kinda makes me chuckle at how far things have changed over the past 100 years Men like Soul ans Talent would be normal 100 years ago D/s relationships dynamics where the norm (the rule of thumb was in effect as the prevailing form of SSC)
[21:16] <ravenshad> So would it be safe to say that SSC has in many ways hindered BDSM more than it has helped?
[21:16] <Bugs42`> I think so, nice thought and concept, but that is it
[21:16] <^noelle> ravenshad, it's gotten me to learn a lot more about safe sex pratices ..like gloves and phone calls
[21:16] <AlstrBlck> Actually, raven, I know a few people that CRAVE being punished. The one with the stun gun, for instance. she went back to his place three times after that incident, wanting more and more.
[21:18] <_mizu_> not hindered it, just not allowed us to come together like other groups
[21:19] <ravenshad> From my understanding, the advent of SSC has split BDSM into two groups.."Old School" and "new school"...to me, that has indeed hindered BDSM in general...
[21:19] <Soulhuntr> <- looks whistfully at his cattle prod.
[21:19] <Tatsumi> no comment again
[21:20] <Bugs42`> agreed, I know several that would never even consider a safe word
[21:20] <ravenshad> Those people who find that for them safewords are not something they want to use..are being faced with ostracism and ridicule...
[21:20] <Bugs42`> and what the Master says is law
[21:20] <^noelle> ravenshad, the split ocured before between Old Guard and "New Guard" in the leather community by opening up the doors and teaching new people so to speak
[21:20] <ravenshad> damn..lost my train of thought..<sigh>
[21:21] <Bugs42`> yes, for many if there is not a safeword, they see the sub as a masochist and it not being sane
[21:21] <^noelle> i can't remember the author, but the book is called Ties that Bind..it explains it a lot better than i just tried to
[21:21] <ravenshad> I understand that noelle..but I think SSC has widened that split by being used as a weapon against anyone who is different than those who push it
[21:21] <sulis-tax> i have expierenced it and would not care to expierence it again thank you
[21:22] <_mizu_> true raven, it has be used to make people unconfortable
[21:22] <sulis-tax> i think it made it eaiser for us to judge eachother
[21:23] <ravenshad> From my understanding, many people find it so much easier to learn about BDSM if they find people who feel or have felt the same way they have...
[21:23] <_mizu_> i know i feel that way at times because of how i was trained
[21:23] <^noelle> i don't think it's a set of rules that are followed though but just kind of guidelines
[21:23] <_mizu_> yes it is raven
[21:23] <ravenshad> if SSC is enforced as much as it is now, finding that "bond" (for lack of a better word) with someone else..will be more difficult for anyone that is different than who they are..
[21:23] <ravenshad> to explain..
[21:24] <ravenshad> Myself..when I first began playing with BDSM..I never considered a safe word..I didn't want one..
[21:24] <sulis-tax> i have to agree with you on that raven i have to thank kimi for showing me around to my first sites
[21:24] <ravenshad> but when I started learning the terminology and speaking with others in the lifestyle..I was told I *HAD* to have a safeword or I wasn't practicing BDSM..I was consenting to be abused..
[21:25] <_mizu_> i was "trained" by a group, it was very disciplend and combat oriented, all bound together by honor
[21:25] <ravenshad> I began using them, and advocating their use..even though it didn't sit well with me..
[21:26] <sulis-tax> it was wonderful to know that i was not the only one who was confused and beeing able to see other peoples view and expierces made me feel better
[21:26] <^noelle> ...consenting to the possiblity of abuse ravenshad... i have one, but i haven't had to use it once...just said what was going on and i think maybe a lot more people need to try that too
[21:26] <Bugs42`> Do you still advocate safewords raven?
[21:26] <ravenshad> not completely no Bugs..
[21:27] <ravenshad> I prefer not to have a safeword...but I can see where they can be helpful for others who do want them..
[21:27] <Bugs42`> so it is back to preference and individuals?
[21:27] <ravenshad> It wasn't until I ran into a few people on a mailing list that I heard others speak about not having safewords and their reasons...
[21:27] <ravenshad> isn't it always back t that Bugs?? <giggle>
[21:27] <ravenshad> t=to
[21:28] <Bugs42`> yes, it is... the same with what is sane and when consent is given....
[21:28] <ravenshad> Someone once said that common sense is really all that is needed to live this lifestyle..but that SSC came about because people lack common sense..any opinion on that?
[21:29] <Tatsumi> people who lack common sense are not going to be saved by SSC
[21:29] <ravenshad> my point was, because of the pushing of SSC, those who are not as "safe" as others..are not finding the support they need and instead are finding ridicule ...
[21:29] <^noelle> other than it's pretty much true ravneshad? *G*
[21:29] <_mizu_> that is true
[21:29] * ravenshad giggles..agreed Tat, noelle and mizu.. :)
[21:29] <Bugs42`> in everything, some people simply do not use common sense... no matter what is there for them, even SSC
[21:30] <ravenshad> OK..so would it be safe to say then that not only must a person have trust in their partner, but also have trust in their own instincts and abilities to make good choices?
[21:31] <_mizu_> yes raven
[21:31] <Bugs42`> yes, it would be safe to say that
[21:32] <ravenshad> What are some general guidelines or things that a person should think about or do before becoming involved in the lifestyle? if anything
[21:32] <Bugs42`> everything comes back to trust, if you do not trust the person, do not play
[21:32] <^noelle> so to be SSC and to want to meet a couple in another city, how would you go about finding out if they are SSC and such before meeting them?
[21:33] <Bugs42`> and do a lot of talking and listening
[21:33] <^noelle> (one is a "pro" Domme and her husband is a Dom as well, just not for a living)
[21:33] <Tatsumi> THINK about it
[21:33] <_mizu_> read and learn, or find a person willing to bring you in slowly and at your own pace
[21:33] <ravenshad> I'd take that one step further Tats..think about it, learn from others, think some more and compare what you hear with what you feel/think inside yourself..then decide what is right for you and what is not..
[21:33] * ^noelle agrees with mizu
[21:34] <ntalia> well common sense says that reasonable consent is somewhere between "Hi. have we met? Will you tie me up?" and requiring your partner to fill out a 14 page play list and provide a health certificate.
[21:34] <Bugs42`> ^noelle, to be honest, I don't think you can know before you meet, just make sure NO play on first meeting and then trust yourself and think
[21:35] <Cherrie> cant trust everything Cyber either~They can type what you want to hear and be the opposite.
[21:36] <Bugs42`> I do not trust computers, letters or telephone as much as I do face to face meetings and my own gut reactions
[21:36] <Tatsumi> same here Bugs
[21:37] <Talent> well nothing is 100%safe in life period
[21:37] * _mizu_ giggles
[21:37] <ravenshad> ain't that the truth Talent!..<giggle>
[21:37] <^noelle> gut reactions haven't been off from phone really, but you're right about needing to meet face to face first Bugs
[21:37] <Tatsumi> true Talent
[21:37] <ntalia> i trust computers for computer relationships. some people make me want to take things beyond puters.
[21:38] <Talent> using comman sense is important when interacting with anybody now a days
[21:39] <Bugs42`> if you go beyond computers, use common sense
[21:39] <Bugs42`> trust yourself and if you can't do that take a friend that you can
[21:40] <ravenshad> In your opinion, is SSC a way of softening BDSM for those who just want to "play at it??
[21:41] <Bugs42`> yes, I do, a way of pacifying people
[21:42] <ntalia> i think SSC was meant as advice and it's become a catch phrase.
[21:42] <ravenshad> Thanks for participating everyone.. :)
[21:42] <ravenshad> I agree with that talia..
[21:43] <Bugs42`> does that mean it is time to wrap things up?
[21:43] <ravenshad> unless you have something to add..yes..my mind just isn't functioning tonight..
[20:11] <ravenshad> you must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave
[20:11] <ravenshad> legal age being 18 or 21 depending on your local laws..
[20:11] <ravenshad> no trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night
[20:12] <ravenshad> if you troll, you are apt to be kicked from channel and possibly banned
[20:12] <ravenshad> be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[20:12] <ravenshad> all statements are publishable on the web site, with nicks changed (at your request, email webmaster@leathernroses.com if you don't want your nick used.
[20:13] <ravenshad> OK...I figured we could cover SSC (safe sane consensual) tonight..
[20:13] <ravenshad> I realize this is a hot topic, in that it can create arguments so easily, so I ask that everyone please have patience and keep an open mind..
[20:14] <ravenshad> SSC is being touted as the "mantra" so to speak of BDSM...Do you think that all this pushing of SSC has diluted the original intent of the words?
[20:14] <Bugs42`> Yes!
[20:14] <ravenshad> Ohhh..emphatic tonight aren't we Sir??
[20:14] * ravenshad grins..
[20:14] <Tatsumi> personally, i think the words themsleves have no special weight to them. and that people use the SSC slogan instead of their brains
[20:14] <Soulhuntr> Nope - I think it was always intended as a mantra... so this is right on target.
[20:15] <ravenshad> I agree Tatsumi..
[20:15] <Tatsumi> :)
[20:15] <ravenshad> I can't speak on what the intention was, my understanding is that the intention was to make BDSM "safer" for those involved..
[20:15] <ravenshad> though..I do wonder if the intention was not also to make BDSM more acceptable in general..
[20:15] <ravenshad> what do you think?
[20:15] <Bugs42`> I see it as a nice catch phrase, but it is the individuals that determine their meaning
[20:16] <ravenshad> I agree Bugs..
[20:16] <_mizu_> most of what i have done would not be considered "safe" by most people, but it was consensual
[20:16] <Soulhuntr> It's purpose, IMHO was to try and give us a 'defemse' in the eyes of the vanilla world.
[20:16] <ravenshad> that's a point..just who defines what is safe?
[20:17] <ravenshad> I can see that Soul...and would that be a bad thing considering the risks we take by living BDSM?
[20:17] <ravenshad> risks meaning: losing jobs, kids..etc.
[20:17] <Tatsumi> SSC has not lessened those risks
[20:18] <Tatsumi> remember the Haughtens?
[20:18] <Tatsumi> <sp>
[20:18] <ravenshad> no it hasn't Tat...I wish it had though...
[20:18] <_mizu_> not realy raven, thoes can be done without having the lifestyle brought into it in the present day world
[20:18] <Soulhuntr> Yes... I think it is a bad thing... because it doesn;t protect us as a group, and leave out in the cold the more extreme elements.
[20:18] <ravenshad> ummm..nope I don't remember them..explain please?
[20:19] <Tatsumi> a married couple videotaped a scene for personal viewing later
[20:19] <Soulhuntr> There is an analogy in the gay community - in an attempt to be acceopted, a group of advocates got together to tell the world that they wanted what straights wanted, monogomy and so on.
[20:19] <Tatsumi> a "freind" found the tape and gave it to the cops
[20:19] <ravenshad> I have to agree with that Soul..it does abandon those who are more extreme ...which in my opinion, goes against the whole "open mind" and tolerance thing...
[20:19] <Soulhuntr> In the process, they left out in the cold the non-monogamous gays... and left them to the wolves.
[20:19] <ravenshad> Ahhhh..yes I remember that now... that was nasty.. :(
[20:19] <Tatsumi> they were arrested and their children put into foster care
[20:20] <Tatsumi> the case took over a year and cost thousands
[20:20] <sulis-tax> that is rediculous I assume that the children where not in the video tats am i correct
[20:20] <Tatsumi> yes sulis
[20:20] <Bugs42`> seems that SSC tries to set a standard.. the same one for everyone
[20:20] <ravenshad> yes sulis..but that doesn't matter when it comes to BdSM..
[20:20] <Tatsumi> the tape stated upfront that both people were doing this b/c they liked it and loved each other, etc
[20:20] <Tatsumi> even quoted the SSC slogan in the tape
[20:21] <Tatsumi> it didn't matter
[20:21] <ravenshad> many don't even know that the DSMIV has changed the definition of masochist and submissive etc..so it is no longer classified as a psychological illness...unless it encompases and hinders the person's life..
[20:21] <AlstrBlck> I have always said that anything 2 (or more) consenting adults do, in private or on video, is nobody's concern, until and unless they choose to make it so.
[20:21] * chensay agrees
[20:21] <Tatsumi> they were arrested for battery i think
[20:21] <ravenshad> I agree that those pushing SSC are trying to set a "standard" for the entire lifestyle..problem with doing that is the lifestyle is too varied to find many commonalities across the board..
[20:21] <sulis-tax> i dont understand why our court systme would do that I mean what differnece is what i do in bed with my husband do hetero vanilla people have the same problems with video taping themeselves
[20:21] <Tatsumi> and then for endangering a minor
[20:22] <ravenshad> exactly Tats..endangering a minor..
[20:22] <ravenshad> then add in.."best interest of the child" sulis..those who are in BDSM are considered unfit parents.. :(
[20:22] * _mizu_ giggles
[20:22] <Tatsumi> anyone remember the resultion of the case?
[20:22] <ntalia> i think the problem with SSC is not the concept, but the degree to which it is pushed.
[20:23] <ntalia> i don't think most would like to do harm to a partner, but there is risk inherent in much of what we do. and the degree of risk becomes an issue for those proposing ssc.
[20:23] <ravenshad> I'm sorry Tats, but I don't remember..
[20:23] <Bugs42`> I agree ntalia, but the concept is taken as a standard
[20:24] <sulis-tax> i personally am watching a court case about a woman who has a husband and live in boyfriend and the custody of the groups children.
[20:24] <_mizu_> i agree with talia, i know my limit's and to some they are extreame, but i recieve more injures fighting in a acceptble sport then BDSM
[20:24] <Tatsumi> too bad. i lost contact with the couple and the case after Philip died
[20:24] <AlstrBlck> raven, do you remember that story I sent you a while back?
[20:24] <ntalia> certainly anyone who is vanilla looking at what we do wouldn't call it safe or sane. but i watch skydivers and wonder the same with them....
[20:25] <Tatsumi> good point talia
[20:25] <ravenshad> should we, as a whole, set regulations that would ensure physical safety for those in the lifestyle?
[20:25] <ravenshad> Yes..a few weeks ago right?
[20:25] <sulis-tax> they want to take her kids because she lives consesually with the two men
[20:25] <ravenshad> exactly talia...
[20:25] <Soulhuntr> No.
[20:26] <ravenshad> I hope they don't win sulis..that's a stupid reason to take someone's kids..
[20:26] <sulis-tax> how could you do that
[20:26] <Tatsumi> No Raven
[20:26] <Bugs42`> no, no regulations
[20:26] <chensay> i dont think so...
[20:26] <Soulhuntr> All that such a set of rules will do is fragment us.
[20:26] <_mizu_> there is no way that could be done raven
[20:26] <ravenshad> But, aren't we already fragmented?
[20:26] * ravenshad is playing devil's advocate..
[20:26] <Tatsumi> we are Raven?
[20:26] <ravenshad> I agree that it shouldn't be done..
[20:26] <Tatsumi> explain please?
[20:26] <ravenshad> ok...
[20:26] <ntalia> can we agree that consensual is a requirement. that the only person you are allowed to involve in a non-consensual scene is one who has already agreed that it's acceptable to be involved in a rape type scene?
[20:27] <Bugs42`> we are not as fragmented as we would be
[20:27] <chensay> its too easy to get into my kink is ok and yours isnt with regulations... i want what i do between me and my Domme..
[20:27] <_mizu_> only by the one's who want to be accepted as "publicy acceptible behaivor"
[20:27] <ravenshad> This is just from what I've seen, which isn't an excessive amount, but..many in BDSM look down on anyone who enjoys something different from themselves..
[20:27] <ravenshad> labelling quickly the person as "unsafe" and someone to be wary of..
[20:27] <Tatsumi> sure, but that's true anywhere Raven
[20:27] <ravenshad> edge play for example..those who enjoy it, aren't as welcome by those who don't..
[20:27] <ravenshad> true it does Tats...but should it happen in BDSM?
[20:27] <sulis-tax> lets not get into the black balling issue
[20:28] <Bugs42`> that is true, there are many holier than thous in our lifestyle, I see that as a defense
[20:28] <Tatsumi> should? no
[20:28] <sulis-tax> that always back fires
[20:28] <ravenshad> I agree sulis..
[20:28] <Tatsumi> but lots of stuff "shouldn't be"
[20:28] <ravenshad> but it happens far too often..
[20:28] <sulis-tax> because who gets to choose what is not safe
[20:28] <ravenshad> true Tats..but I think that by discussing it ..we may be able to promote a more tolerant mindset in people..
[20:28] <sulis-tax> who makes the rules
[20:29] <_mizu_> and we will have world peace, yea right
[20:29] <ravenshad> I don't know..but I do recall someone mentioning the rules for a submissive that some group came up with..
[20:29] <Bugs42`> if a choice is to be made by me, I would rather promote tolerance than SSC
[20:29] <ravenshad> rules that give the sub a lot of control in a relationship..
[20:29] <Tatsumi> it's possible, but if the mailing lists are any indication, tolerance is not something that can be acchieved by talk alone
[20:29] <ravenshad> Depends on the list Tats..but I think you're right
[20:29] <ravenshad> many lists become cliques...
[20:29] <Tatsumi> yup
[20:30] <Tatsumi> the only rulw i can think of is THINK
[20:30] <ravenshad> Does this fragmentation (or intolerance) possibly make the lifestyle more dangerous?
[20:30] <Tatsumi> how so?
[20:30] <_mizu_> no, just more fragmented becasue no one wishes to learn
[20:31] <ravenshad> By preventing information about more controversial practices from reaching the ears/eyes of those who want to learn?
[20:31] <ravenshad> for example..gun play..
[20:31] <chensay> i think all the information should be available and if its not your thing you dont do it..
[20:31] <ravenshad> I was recently involved in a discussion about gun play..the person who started the posts (yes a list) was immediately branded a "psychopathic killer" and reamed big time..
[20:31] <Tatsumi> that's why websites and books and mailing lists exist
[20:31] <Tatsumi> to provide info for those who want it
[20:31] <Soulhuntr> Was that me?
[20:32] <Soulhuntr> it's soo hard to keep it straight :)
[20:32] <ravenshad> In this case..any actual information he imparted, was lost among the flames..
[20:32] <ravenshad> no Soul..not my list.. :)
[20:32] * _mizu_ bow's to Cherrie saying, "greetings"
[20:32] <Cherrie> hello A/all
[20:32] <ravenshad> a different list..but I remember that discussion on the other list..
[20:32] <Tatsumi> lol raven
[20:32] <AlstrBlck> I've been "attacked" by an 18 year old girl for saying that the dog collar she wore symbolized submissiviness. She and her friends flamed me like you would not believe!
[20:32] <Tatsumi> that makes us crazy i guess:)
[20:32] <AlstrBlck> She is now a masochist, into pain, and one of her friends is a crack head...
[20:32] <ravenshad> Does that increase the chances of someone trying such a scene without knowing possible safety issues?
[20:32] * chensay likes collars *smiles*
[20:33] <_mizu_> humm, that's actualy a fashion statement in some areas now Sir, mostly the Goth sceen's
[20:33] <Tatsumi> fashion collars annoy me
[20:33] <ravenshad> that's justice for you AB.. LOL
[20:33] <Tatsumi> i doubt it raven
[20:33] <Soulhuntr> True enough.... makes me want to grab the ring and see if they have any clue what they are playign with :)
[20:34] <_mizu_> ohh yea
[20:34] <KimiD> perk?
[20:34] * ravenshad giggles..now that would be cute..
[20:34] * chensay grins
[20:34] <ravenshad> ok..sane..
[20:34] <_mizu_> but they are not very well made, would break easly (done it) (giggle)
[20:34] <ravenshad> what the hell is sane??
[20:34] <Tatsumi> if someone goes into a scene w/o knowing the saftey issues, they are stupid and no amount of SSC sloganing is going to help them
[20:34] <ravenshad> I agree Tats... :)
[20:35] <_mizu_> that's true
[20:35] * ravenshad has a picture of her mother wearing a beautiful choker necklace..would make a wonderful daily collar...<g>
[20:36] * ravenshad repeats.."What is sane?"
[20:36] <Bugs42`> to me safe is what my sub and I decide and only we know if we are sane and if there is no consent we do not do it, but as the Dom, I prefer having the say in the safe and consent portions
[20:36] <Tatsumi> i'm not even going there Raven
[20:37] <Tatsumi> it's too personal to define
[20:37] * chensay giggles and glances over to the nice men in white jackets and doesnt answer about sane
[20:37] <ravenshad> having the say in the consent portions?
[20:37] <AlstrBlck> "Sane" is where you find your own comfort. One's sanity is another's insanity.
[20:37] <ravenshad> yes it is very personal and difficult to define Tats...
[20:37] <_mizu_> sane, is what is difined by popular culture of the time
[20:37] <Tatsumi> :)
[20:38] <sulis-tax> yes and no mizu
[20:38] <Bugs42`> when the sub agreed to be my sub, she showed she trusted me and my judgement, granted there mat be times when she does not want to do something but I do
[20:38] <ravenshad> I agree AB..but is there a line where even those of us in BDSM cross into the "insane" area?
[20:38] <ntalia> for me sane talks about not taking advantage of someone who is looking for a quick f*** because they're depressed. or not taking advantage of a person's intoxication.
[20:38] <ravenshad> Ahhh..I see Bugs...so would you then not allow a safe word?
[20:38] * chensay agrees with talia
[20:39] <ravenshad> good point talia..
[20:39] <Bugs42`> I do not like tsafe words but yes, it is allowed
[20:39] <AlstrBlck> raven, I know my limits. I pkayed around with electricity with a friend, and she enjoyed it. When she started getting into have a stun gun pressed to her ass, 10,000 volts or something like that, that's where Ii said she passed my limits.
[20:39] <chensay> ouch? *giggles*
[20:39] <sulis-tax> i mean what you consider sane and what i consider to be sane maybe to totally different things
[20:40] <SirWolf> 10000 volts isn't playing,,,
[20:40] <ravenshad> I agree with that sulis but again, is there a measurement that can be used (or yardstick so to speak) where one would be considered beyond the limits of sanity?
[20:40] <_mizu_> nope, not at all
[20:40] <ntalia> i think a safeword is an interesting idea, but the word "no" or "stop" should have power. i was lucky with my master, but i could see with a new partner needing something to let them know my limits.
[20:41] <Bugs42`> it's back to know who you play with and talk
[20:41] <Tatsumi> and THINK
[20:41] <sulis-tax> But safewords are not always practical
[20:41] <ntalia> yes Bugs sir, but there is always a first time so there is always a learning period
[20:41] <ravenshad> true they aren't..
[20:41] <KimiD> <--agrees with sulis
[20:42] <ravenshad> we covered safewords a few weeks ago..<giggle>
[20:42] <ravenshad> Has SSC somehow made BDSM more difficult than it should be?
[20:42] <Bugs42`> we all go through learning periods and if we were smart we learned then played
[20:42] <SirWolf> Soul,,, if you've never seen one used ,,, there not
[20:42] <_mizu_> yeap, that is the only way thing's should be handled, between the two people who know there limit's and how they should go about trying something new
[20:42] <sulis-tax> I mean When you are off in your own world I couldnt mutter daddy let alone a safe word
[20:43] <sulis-tax> and what if you are gagged
[20:43] <sulis-tax> then what
[20:43] * chensay doesnt like gags
[20:43] <sulis-tax> Talent knows kat and i so well that he can tell when something is not right
[20:43] <sulis-tax> i trust that he will take our interests at heart or i would not be here
[20:44] <Bugs42`> would you allow yourself to be gagged by a stranger sulis-tax?
[20:44] <Tatsumi> i'm not a fan of safewords, but there are ways to communicate a safeword w/o verbal means. it could be a hand signal or a head toss, or whatever
[20:44] <sulis-tax> I personally would not play with someone i dont trust with my life
[20:44] <AlstrBlck> The woman I mentioned, who got into electricity, she was EXTREMELY stubborn, and would NEVER use a safe-word. I saw her hands turning blue one night, the rope got twisted, and she wouldn't say it. I caught it, and cut the ropes and made her take a break, and she was upset about it.
[20:44] <KimiD> it's TRUE!
[20:44] <_mizu_> right, and i am a blind person
[20:44] <Tatsumi> no comment
[20:45] <ravenshad> ok..we're going off into safeword land...
[20:46] <cyn{Wolf}> we talked about implied consenuality yet?
[20:46] <ravenshad> nope..was waiting for a response..
[20:46] <ravenshad> Has SSC somehow made BDSM more difficult than it should be?
[20:46] <ravenshad> to that ^^^^^^^^^^^
[20:46] <Bugs42`> ok, SSC, I see it as ok for the new people, but it is in most cases not a reality as a standard
[20:46] <Soulhuntr> Yeah.. I think so.
[20:46] <Soulhuntr> I think it divides us.
[20:46] <ravenshad> divides us into what?
[20:46] <_mizu_> for the person looking into it for the frist time, yes
[20:47] <ntalia> i think if you're talking about two consenting adults in their own home, no. it hasn't made it more difficult.
[20:47] <ntalia> but if yoú're talking about play parties, then yes. it would make it tougher.
[20:48] <ravenshad> I think it makes it more difficult to find tolerance within our "community" not just play parties..
[20:48] <ravenshad> Everyone agrees that consent is what seperates BDSM from abuse..
[20:48] <Cherrie> raven,,on SSC,,,I am finding that some have not heard of it, or they roll their eyes
[20:48] <ravenshad> Just when is consent given?
[20:48] <ravenshad> I roll my eyes now Cherrie.. LOL
[20:48] * ravenshad has grown..
[20:49] <sulis-tax> yeah i agree raven
[20:49] <Steven> <----wonders just what is the safest way to enter the world you all live in?
[20:49] <Soulhuntr> I think the point of consent varies radically from person to person.
[20:49] <Bugs42`> I am surprised that they have not heard of it
[20:49] <_mizu_> when you say "ok, do me"
[20:49] <Soulhuntr> And I think it means different things to different people.
[20:49] * chensay gives concent when she crawls across the floor with the flogger in her mouth then begs....
[20:49] <Tatsumi> Steven, go to a PEP meeting or TES or some other informative, no-play environment
[20:49] <Tatsumi> watch, listen, and learn
[20:49] <ravenshad> safest way..I'd say through cyber...very little chance of any physical injury..
[20:49] <ravenshad> also..local groups in real life that are in your area..
[20:49] <AlstrBlck> The community I live in, thanx to this wonderful man, if the police so much as suspect you hit a woman, whether she was WILLING OR NOT, will arrest you.
[20:50] <Steven> What is PEP or TES?
[20:50] <Tatsumi> PEP = people exchanging power
[20:50] <Tatsumi> TES = the eugenspiel <sp> society
[20:50] <Steven> Thanks.....
[20:51] <ravenshad> Both have web sites I believe Steven..with numbers or adresses where they can be contacted..
[20:51] <Tatsumi> D/s discussion groups that have demos and lectures and panels, etc..
[20:51] <Soulhuntr> www.tes.org I think :)
[20:51] <Soulhuntr> Thats an interesting question... when do you consider yourself to have given consent?
[20:51] <_mizu_> consent for me, was if they could cuff me, at times the was uhhmm a bit rough at times
[20:51] <Tatsumi> when the collar goes on
[20:51] <cyn{Wolf}> consent...when I submit..not until
[20:52] <Bugs42`> I believe that blanket consent is given when the agreement to Master/sub is made
[20:52] <KimiD> when i walked through the door
[20:52] <ravenshad> I consider myself to have given consent when I submit to someone..though for me, blanket consent takes place when a collar is placed..
[20:52] <chensay> my concent was given when i was collared
[20:52] <_mizu_> when i allow the cuff's to go on without a fight
[20:53] <ravenshad> gee Bugs..you said that clearer than I did..thanks :)
[20:53] <Bugs42`> is there a time when specific consent is needed?
[20:53] <sulis-tax> thats a good ? it has just always been an unspoken thing between us
[20:53] <Tatsumi> not for me Raven
[20:53] <sulis-tax> i dont remember a specific time i said ok you can spank me or ok you can tie me up
[20:53] <sulis-tax> it just happened
[20:53] <_mizu_> but that is how i was trained
[20:54] <ravenshad> I think that would be up to the people involved, but in general I'd say in a play partner arrangement, consent should be given before the play begins..
[20:54] <sulis-tax> i think it depends on the relationship you are in
[20:54] * chensay agrees with raven
[20:54] <Soulhuntr> ::nods:: Personally, I am much more comfortable with a physical symbol, a necklace, a collar, a wrist band or anklet... these sorts of things.
[20:54] <sulis-tax> i mean in a 24/7 one prolly not but in a play one prolly yes
[20:54] <ravenshad> under other general things I'd say consent to something new may be needed...or for a scene that is beyond the "norm" for the couple..(highly dependent upon those involved)
[20:55] <Bugs42`> agreed raven, that is when I see a specific consent is needed
[20:55] <^noelle> at first consent is a step by step thing until both players are comfortable with each other..as the relationship goes, that grows as does the trust to try other things
[20:55] <ravenshad> I like the physical symbol as well Soul..
[20:55] <ravenshad> that is true noelle..
[20:55] <ravenshad> but that brings in this question..
[20:56] <Bugs42`> what does the physical symbol do for you?
[20:56] <ravenshad> once a relationship grows to a comitted one (collared, or otherwise verbally comitted) should the consent then be one of "blanket" nature?
[20:56] <Tatsumi> when i accept a collar, i am giving blanket consent that only ends when the relationship ends
[20:56] <KimiD> i would say so raven..for me
[20:56] <sulis-tax> i think so raven
[20:56] <ravenshad> it's difficult to explain Bugs..it's an emotional completeness for me..
[20:57] <_mizu_> if it goes that far raven, then the two people know eachother very well, and should know the limit's by heart
[20:57] <Bugs42`> the key there raven is "should" and I see that as between the individuals as to whether it should or not
[20:57] <Soulhuntr> In a collared relationship, it is a constant symbol of blanket consent .. even in a non collared relationship, it is a good way to symbolize what is going on... for her and for me.
[20:57] <ravenshad> tangible evidence of comittment
[20:57] <^noelle> except for hard limits.. soft limits it should be a matter of trust to push at the edges maybe ..but by then i think it just becomes a blanket .. new things would need to be discussed first though
[20:57] <ravenshad> ahhh but mizu, people are famous for rushing into things..specially those things which touch them deeply..
[20:58] <Bugs42`> thank you raven and Soulhuntr, that makes sense
[20:58] <ravenshad> Well said Soul!! Thanks.. :))
[20:58] <AlstrBlck> I know that all too well, raven....
[20:59] <ravenshad> are there any situations you can think of where an assumption of consent should not exist?
[20:59] <ravenshad> me too AB..me too..
[20:59] <SirWolf> first time meeting in r/l
[20:59] <Tatsumi> people in general rush into things. that's why many marraiges are ending so soon after they begin and so many collars are being taken off so lightly. it's a shame, i think
[20:59] <Bugs42`> yes, raven, I would not assume consent to share my sub
[21:00] <Soulhuntr> ::nods:: It definately is, I agree.
[21:00] <ravenshad> that's a good situation to not assume consent.. :)
[21:00] <ravenshad> I agree Tats..
[21:00] <Bugs42`> that would have to be specific
[21:00] <^noelle> yes raven, like bringing in other people
[21:00] <Tatsumi> i don't think there is any situation like that for me
[21:01] <sulis-tax> well it is possible to assume consent on bringing a third in but it normally works out better dynamics wise if everyone likes eachother
[21:01] <ravenshad> I remember a while back, speaking with a woman who says she is sub...she said she would withdraw consent from a situation at any time and that she has that right..is doing this, abusing/manipulating what consent really is?
[21:02] <Tatsumi> not to me Raven
[21:02] <cyn{Wolf}> personally, i wouldn't want to have to give consent after i had offered my submission and been collared. My trust bond is blanket consent ..if He/She breaks that trust..then that would be a problem
[21:02] <ravenshad> can you think of a situation where withdrawing consent would be wrong?
[21:02] <Bugs42`> I would say yes, raven
[21:02] <Soulhuntr> Not to me.... but people get to define it for themselves.
[21:02] <sulis-tax> well truly except for your word you can always choose to leave any situation you just ahve to deal with the consiquences
[21:03] <Soulhuntr> It is becomming clear to me that you cannot micro manage consent. You either have it, and use it, or you don;t have it.
[21:03] <ravenshad> the situation in which she withdrew consent was she was to be punished for doing something wrong, and she didn't want to accept it..so withdrew consent..(yes a collared relationship)
[21:03] <_mizu_> yes raven, if she is doing it because she want to, not because she is in trouble
[21:03] <Bugs42`> I would have released her, no discussion
[21:03] <AlstrBlck> Then she wasn't a true sub, raven.
[21:04] <^noelle> ravenshad..i think it would be wrong if you did it just because you were scared of something..instead of just letting them know that you're frightened
[21:04] <KimiD> we can't say that..you'd have to know what it was and if it was "honorable" or not
[21:04] <Tatsumi> then she doesn't belong in a relationship Raven
[21:04] <ravenshad> ahhh..but according to some who preach SSC, she was within her rights as an empowered submissive to withdraw consent at any time..
[21:04] <Soulhuntr> I wont judge their relationship - it wouldnt have happened here.
[21:04] <Tatsumi> MHO of course:)
[21:05] * ravenshad said it was manipulation and topping from the bottom..
[21:05] <_mizu_> but was the punishment any harsher than the normal level of play?
[21:05] <Bugs42`> that is one of the problems with preachers
[21:05] <AlstrBlck> If she did something wrong, and expected that she could withdrawl consent for the punishment due, then she would begin winthdrawing consent for EVERYTHING.
[21:05] <cyn{Wolf}> can't withdraw consent as manipulation then..or there is no trust
[21:05] <Tatsumi> it's not honorable to duck your obligations and refuse to take responsibiltity for your acxtions
[21:06] <ntalia> she is within her rights to withdraw consent. but if it had been my master and i had withdrawn consent, it could have destroyed our relationship
[21:06] <_mizu_> if not, then she was escaping because she wanted the power
[21:06] <Bugs42`> I agree and that is something I believe is"special" about bdsm people... the honor required
[21:06] <^noelle> she is within her rights to do it, but it sounds like she did it for the wrong reasons..but don't really know the whole story
[21:06] * ravenshad scrolls back
[21:06] <AlstrBlck> I agree, raven.
[21:07] <ravenshad> no mizu..it wasn't..nor was it beyond her limits..she just felt that to be punished for what she did was "unfair"
[21:07] <AlstrBlck> But let's ask. If she withdrew her consent, but got punished anyway, what are the consequences that could of happened?
[21:07] <ntalia> i never thought about withdrawing consent. my master had earned my trust. to withdraw consent would be to say i didn't trust him.
[21:07] <ravenshad> I agree talia..
[21:08] <Tatsumi> when did D/s become fair? lol
[21:08] <_mizu_> true talia
[21:08] <^noelle> if she withdrew consent and was punished anyway ...if it were me, i don't think i could trust that person easily or at all again
[21:08] <ravenshad> that's what I said Tatsumi!! hehehehehe
[21:08] <ntalia> i think there's got to be a difference between a master and slave and someone who is simply partnering for a night at a party or in a less committed relationship
[21:08] <Bugs42`> the T word, I would rather hear trust than SSC anyday
[21:08] <ravenshad> no..she wasn't punished anyway..when the dom moved to saying the collar was his consent..she cried "abuse" and he released her..
[21:08] <_mizu_> good point Sir
[21:08] <Soulhuntr> <- tried, still tries, to make it fair.... but I am working on fixing that :)
[21:09] <ravenshad> Does anyone know when SSC came into being anyway?
[21:09] * ravenshad can't find an answer to that..
[21:09] <Bugs42`> I see fair as determined by the relationship
[21:09] <AlstrBlck> I thought you were going to say that, raven.... She sounded spoilt to me, too, now.
[21:10] <Bugs42`> I first heard it a year or so ago on the Internet
[21:10] <Tatsumi> i'm glad he released her.
[21:10] <AlstrBlck> SSC sounds like a "politically correct" term to me...
[21:10] <ravenshad> I'm on a newsgroup AB..and situations like the one I mention are common there..and the sub's are patted on the back for being so "strong" and refusing to accept punishment they felt was unfair..
[21:10] <Tatsumi> she doesn't sound mature enough to handle a D/s relationship
[21:10] <AlstrBlck> which newsgroup, raven? msg it to me.
[21:11] <ravenshad> I'm not sure if it's a maturity isuue..or an issue that is related to this pushing of sub rights...
[21:11] <Bugs42`> If their relationships on that other newsgroup work that way, great... I couldn't do it
[21:11] <Tatsumi> sub's rights? no such thing in my house
[21:11] <_mizu_> never knew anything about it until i got on-line here
[21:11] <ntalia> she sounds to me like she's interested in D/s play, but isn't ready for a D/s relationship.
[21:11] <ravenshad> I agree talia..
[21:11] <Tatsumi> priveldges, yes. rights? never
[21:12] * _mizu_ giggles
[21:12] * ^noelle has to agree to ntalia
[21:12] <Bugs42`> sounds like we are putting this in an US and THEM way... are we being elitist or cliquish?
[21:13] <ravenshad> probably.. :)
[21:13] <Bugs42`> they are different, does that make them wrong?
[21:13] <Tatsumi> i'm not trying to - just saying what's true for this house IMO
[21:13] <AlstrBlck> Everyone of us growing up, we knew the rule... We did something wrong, we got punished. it wasn't abuse, getting spanked for breaking a vase, it was a learning lesson.
[21:13] <ntalia> in a relationship there is trust. a master wouldn't want to really hurt what belonged to him.
[21:13] <ravenshad> I'm just trying to discuss the way SSC has affected people..
[21:13] <AlstrBlck> Sounds to me like she didn't want her lesson...
[21:14] <ravenshad> No Bugs it doesn't make them wrong...but does it give them the right to be the ones setting the so called "role models" for the rest of us?
[21:14] <_mizu_> it dose not bother me raven, i never worry about them
[21:15] <Bugs42`> No it doesn't raven, but that is back to being open minded, what works for me may not for others... and that is why I do not like SSC, it tries, as I said, to set a standard
[21:15] <ravenshad> Actually AB..I know very few people who want to be punished.. LOL
[21:15] <sulis-tax> It kinda makes me chuckle at how far things have changed over the past 100 years Men like Soul ans Talent would be normal 100 years ago D/s relationships dynamics where the norm (the rule of thumb was in effect as the prevailing form of SSC)
[21:16] <ravenshad> So would it be safe to say that SSC has in many ways hindered BDSM more than it has helped?
[21:16] <Bugs42`> I think so, nice thought and concept, but that is it
[21:16] <^noelle> ravenshad, it's gotten me to learn a lot more about safe sex pratices ..like gloves and phone calls
[21:16] <AlstrBlck> Actually, raven, I know a few people that CRAVE being punished. The one with the stun gun, for instance. she went back to his place three times after that incident, wanting more and more.
[21:18] <_mizu_> not hindered it, just not allowed us to come together like other groups
[21:19] <ravenshad> From my understanding, the advent of SSC has split BDSM into two groups.."Old School" and "new school"...to me, that has indeed hindered BDSM in general...
[21:19] <Soulhuntr> <- looks whistfully at his cattle prod.
[21:19] <Tatsumi> no comment again
[21:20] <Bugs42`> agreed, I know several that would never even consider a safe word
[21:20] <ravenshad> Those people who find that for them safewords are not something they want to use..are being faced with ostracism and ridicule...
[21:20] <Bugs42`> and what the Master says is law
[21:20] <^noelle> ravenshad, the split ocured before between Old Guard and "New Guard" in the leather community by opening up the doors and teaching new people so to speak
[21:20] <ravenshad> damn..lost my train of thought..<sigh>
[21:21] <Bugs42`> yes, for many if there is not a safeword, they see the sub as a masochist and it not being sane
[21:21] <^noelle> i can't remember the author, but the book is called Ties that Bind..it explains it a lot better than i just tried to
[21:21] <ravenshad> I understand that noelle..but I think SSC has widened that split by being used as a weapon against anyone who is different than those who push it
[21:21] <sulis-tax> i have expierenced it and would not care to expierence it again thank you
[21:22] <_mizu_> true raven, it has be used to make people unconfortable
[21:22] <sulis-tax> i think it made it eaiser for us to judge eachother
[21:23] <ravenshad> From my understanding, many people find it so much easier to learn about BDSM if they find people who feel or have felt the same way they have...
[21:23] <_mizu_> i know i feel that way at times because of how i was trained
[21:23] <^noelle> i don't think it's a set of rules that are followed though but just kind of guidelines
[21:23] <_mizu_> yes it is raven
[21:23] <ravenshad> if SSC is enforced as much as it is now, finding that "bond" (for lack of a better word) with someone else..will be more difficult for anyone that is different than who they are..
[21:23] <ravenshad> to explain..
[21:24] <ravenshad> Myself..when I first began playing with BDSM..I never considered a safe word..I didn't want one..
[21:24] <sulis-tax> i have to agree with you on that raven i have to thank kimi for showing me around to my first sites
[21:24] <ravenshad> but when I started learning the terminology and speaking with others in the lifestyle..I was told I *HAD* to have a safeword or I wasn't practicing BDSM..I was consenting to be abused..
[21:25] <_mizu_> i was "trained" by a group, it was very disciplend and combat oriented, all bound together by honor
[21:25] <ravenshad> I began using them, and advocating their use..even though it didn't sit well with me..
[21:26] <sulis-tax> it was wonderful to know that i was not the only one who was confused and beeing able to see other peoples view and expierces made me feel better
[21:26] <^noelle> ...consenting to the possiblity of abuse ravenshad... i have one, but i haven't had to use it once...just said what was going on and i think maybe a lot more people need to try that too
[21:26] <Bugs42`> Do you still advocate safewords raven?
[21:26] <ravenshad> not completely no Bugs..
[21:27] <ravenshad> I prefer not to have a safeword...but I can see where they can be helpful for others who do want them..
[21:27] <Bugs42`> so it is back to preference and individuals?
[21:27] <ravenshad> It wasn't until I ran into a few people on a mailing list that I heard others speak about not having safewords and their reasons...
[21:27] <ravenshad> isn't it always back t that Bugs?? <giggle>
[21:27] <ravenshad> t=to
[21:28] <Bugs42`> yes, it is... the same with what is sane and when consent is given....
[21:28] <ravenshad> Someone once said that common sense is really all that is needed to live this lifestyle..but that SSC came about because people lack common sense..any opinion on that?
[21:29] <Tatsumi> people who lack common sense are not going to be saved by SSC
[21:29] <ravenshad> my point was, because of the pushing of SSC, those who are not as "safe" as others..are not finding the support they need and instead are finding ridicule ...
[21:29] <^noelle> other than it's pretty much true ravneshad? *G*
[21:29] <_mizu_> that is true
[21:29] * ravenshad giggles..agreed Tat, noelle and mizu.. :)
[21:29] <Bugs42`> in everything, some people simply do not use common sense... no matter what is there for them, even SSC
[21:30] <ravenshad> OK..so would it be safe to say then that not only must a person have trust in their partner, but also have trust in their own instincts and abilities to make good choices?
[21:31] <_mizu_> yes raven
[21:31] <Bugs42`> yes, it would be safe to say that
[21:32] <ravenshad> What are some general guidelines or things that a person should think about or do before becoming involved in the lifestyle? if anything
[21:32] <Bugs42`> everything comes back to trust, if you do not trust the person, do not play
[21:32] <^noelle> so to be SSC and to want to meet a couple in another city, how would you go about finding out if they are SSC and such before meeting them?
[21:33] <Bugs42`> and do a lot of talking and listening
[21:33] <^noelle> (one is a "pro" Domme and her husband is a Dom as well, just not for a living)
[21:33] <Tatsumi> THINK about it
[21:33] <_mizu_> read and learn, or find a person willing to bring you in slowly and at your own pace
[21:33] <ravenshad> I'd take that one step further Tats..think about it, learn from others, think some more and compare what you hear with what you feel/think inside yourself..then decide what is right for you and what is not..
[21:33] * ^noelle agrees with mizu
[21:34] <ntalia> well common sense says that reasonable consent is somewhere between "Hi. have we met? Will you tie me up?" and requiring your partner to fill out a 14 page play list and provide a health certificate.
[21:34] <Bugs42`> ^noelle, to be honest, I don't think you can know before you meet, just make sure NO play on first meeting and then trust yourself and think
[21:35] <Cherrie> cant trust everything Cyber either~They can type what you want to hear and be the opposite.
[21:36] <Bugs42`> I do not trust computers, letters or telephone as much as I do face to face meetings and my own gut reactions
[21:36] <Tatsumi> same here Bugs
[21:37] <Talent> well nothing is 100%safe in life period
[21:37] * _mizu_ giggles
[21:37] <ravenshad> ain't that the truth Talent!..<giggle>
[21:37] <^noelle> gut reactions haven't been off from phone really, but you're right about needing to meet face to face first Bugs
[21:37] <Tatsumi> true Talent
[21:37] <ntalia> i trust computers for computer relationships. some people make me want to take things beyond puters.
[21:38] <Talent> using comman sense is important when interacting with anybody now a days
[21:39] <Bugs42`> if you go beyond computers, use common sense
[21:39] <Bugs42`> trust yourself and if you can't do that take a friend that you can
[21:40] <ravenshad> In your opinion, is SSC a way of softening BDSM for those who just want to "play at it??
[21:41] <Bugs42`> yes, I do, a way of pacifying people
[21:42] <ntalia> i think SSC was meant as advice and it's become a catch phrase.
[21:42] <ravenshad> Thanks for participating everyone.. :)
[21:42] <ravenshad> I agree with that talia..
[21:43] <Bugs42`> does that mean it is time to wrap things up?
[21:43] <ravenshad> unless you have something to add..yes..my mind just isn't functioning tonight..
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