Presents:
BDSM Discussion 3
Power
Exchange
All Comments Posted Here With Permission Of The Participants
[20:12] <ravenshad>
ok...here we go
[20:12] * ravenshad says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions on BDSM the following rules apply..
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[20:14] <ravenshad> Tonight's topic is Power exchange..I expect to be covering what it is, how it applies to BDSM and many other aspects...
[20:14] <ravenshad> this discussion will be the same as the two prior..that being a question answer..
[20:14] <ravenshad> please feel free to toss out questions..or state your opinion..
[20:17] <ravenshad> what is a power exchange to you?
[20:17] <Bugs42`> I see power exchange as the reason for D/s
[20:18] <ravenshad> ok..this it is..but what *is* a power exchange exactly?
[20:18] <fae{NR}> to me, a power exchange is when you and someone(s) else place control over various aspects of life in the other(s) control,
[20:18] <fae{NR}> this could be in the sex life, or in everyday life, such as household chores
[20:18] <AlstrBlck> It's trust.
[20:18] <fae{NR}> Power Exchange doesn't have to be limited to the D/s lifestyle thought
[20:18] <wild1ady> it could be all or parts of life
[20:18] <fae{NR}> though even
[20:19] <ravenshad> ok..if it is the giving of control over yourself to someone else..where does the word exchange fit in? doesn't the word exchange imply getting something in return?
[20:19] <fae{NR}> here's a standard household example, a woman has a job, the man doesn't, so while she makes the money, he cleans the house and maybe takes care of the kids if there are
[20:19] <fae{NR}> he controls the home, she controls the finances
[20:19] <Mirycal> It is when you exchange power between both partners
[20:20] <Mirycal> I agree with fae
[20:20] <ravenshad> ok..
[20:20] <fae{NR}> well, when you give someone power over part of your life, you are expecting fair (or just?) treatment in return
[20:20] <wild1ady> exchange... one gives and one receives
[20:20] <ravenshad> if it is an exchange..would it be safe to say that a sub gives control of herself to a dominant and recieves dominance in return for that control?
[20:20] <ravenshad> I agree there fae..:)
[20:21] * fae{NR} nods *
[20:21] <fae{NR}> i agree with you as well rave
[20:21] <^Guil> define "just or fair", fae....
[20:21] <ravenshad> so this giving to each other, of what the other needs..defines the exchange part of it?
[20:21] <Mirycal> Yes I will agree with that raven
[20:21] <^Guil> if you many ..."equal....clearly no..
[20:21] <ravenshad> D/s is not equal..
[20:21] <fae{NR}> just or fair really depends on the people involved, so it's almost impossible to define
[20:21] <ravenshad> but I think that's why we enjoy it..
[20:22] * ^Guil nods...
[20:22] <ravenshad> partly why anyway..<eg>
[20:22] <Soulhuntr> :;thinks:: personally, I don't know that I agree completely with that.
[20:22] <ravenshad> ok Soulhuntr..what would you say?
[20:22] <fae{NR}> fair to one couple could be a severe punishment for forgetting to say "master or mistress", while it would be very unfair in another relationship
[20:22] <wild1ady> it is only equal in what one gives the other receives in the same amount
[20:22] <ravenshad> I don't know wild..not always will a sub's wants be met in equal amounts as the dominants..
[20:23] <fae{NR}> i think that there is a lot more than just the receiving of dominance/control in PE though, that's only one level of uit
[20:23] <^Guil> hmm.....anyone ever hear of Maslow's hierarchy of needs?
[20:23] <Soulhuntr> The word exchange, to me, implies an agreed upon, reasoned transaction. Yet, some relationships are nothing of the type. A sub reacts to a dominant by submitting... no agreement, no exchange, no thought. That is not, to me, and excahnge.
[20:23] <ravenshad> I haven't Guil..
[20:23] <fae{NR}> no Guil, please elaborate on it
[20:23] <ravenshad> good point Soulhuntr...and you are right..
[20:23] <^Guil> at the bottom is oxygen....at the top is "self-actualization"
[20:23] <wild1ady> no... but the control she gives up is the same control that the dom receives
[20:24] <Bugs42`> yes, I have Guil
[20:24] <AlstrBlck> I seem to recall reading somewhere someone said that by giving up the power of themself, letting someone else have power over parts of her life made her freer.
[20:24] <ravenshad> though..if one stretches it just a bit..wouldn't that response be the exchange?
[20:24] <fae{NR}> Soulhuntr, not all relationships don't have such an agreement though, some do and things are spelled out quite clearly
[20:24] <^Guil> ....but the whole point to wiitwd is that self-actualization is unique to individuals...
[20:24] <Tatsumi> i can see that Soul
[20:24] <^Guil> ...what is the perfect expression of self for one person... a slave or submissive...might be hideous abuse to one who is not...
[20:24] <ravenshad> true Guil...very true..
[20:25] <ravenshad> Many advocate the setting of a prearranged deal so to speak, in order for a BDSM relationship to include a true power exchange..what do you think of that?
[20:26] <^Guil> ...the key is....I'm coming to agree with Soulhuntr in some respects....dominance and submission is what it is...
[20:26] <Soulhuntr> You can't 'negotiate' the exchange of real power... it is instinctual. You can negotiate its expression at times.
[20:26] <ravenshad> I agree there Guil.. :)
[20:26] <ravenshad> I agree Soulhuntr..in many cases you can't negotiate what is done instinctually..
[20:26] <ravenshad> but that brings in to play whether or not being a dominant or a sub is an instinctive thing or not..
[20:27] <fae{NR}> I can't say TPE can be agreed upon before, it's a relationship that is always in flux due to todays world
[20:27] <^Guil> ...but you must negotiate to identify those with whom it is acceptable to allow that natural flow of power to be realized....
[20:27] <ravenshad> Can a true TPE (TOTAL power exchange) really exist in this world? or are we fooling ourselves?
[20:27] <fae{NR}> raven, i feel that there are several different ways to be into D/s
[20:27] <ravenshad> there most certainly are fae.. :)
[20:27] <fae{NR}> i think that there are actually some instinctual, some doing it for kicks, some doing it out of rebelion, and many other kinds that do wiitwd
[20:28] <Soulhuntr> Doesnt the power flow no matter what? Arent all interactions power based?
[20:28] <wild1ady> TPE "in my opinion" can't be agreed upon... it has to be lived and grown into
[20:28] <dekatia> i think a total power exchange IS possible...however it takes time because you must develop a whole lot of trust for that
[20:28] <ravenshad> agreed dekatia..
[20:28] <^Guil> specific example....today I found myself wanting to discipline a waitress who was doing a piss-poor job serving me - lousy job, lousy attitude....but I refrained because with the broader contexts of our society (not our BDSM subculture...) you can't do that...
[20:28] <fae{NR}> whether TPE can exist in todays world depends on many things, once again, the most important is definition...
[20:28] <Bugs42`> I think in the beginning it should be agreed upon as to how much power is exchanged
[20:28] <fae{NR}> it is possible, but may be very inconvenient forthe people involved
[20:28] <ravenshad> intersting point Soulhuntr..and yes, you are right..if one looks at just about any situation in life, you will find some sort of power exchange there..
[20:29] <^Guil> yes and no, SH....yes that is part of the reality...no, that cannot always be acknowledged...
[20:29] <fae{NR}> Bugs, i can't agree there unfortunately...everything is in flux, and today i might let someone have a particular power over me, that tomorrow i may find that i can't do without in some situation
[20:30] <Bugs42`> I agree fae but there should be a ground rule or base to start from or neither would ever know where they stand
[20:30] <^Guil> ....fae....do you mean that in some cases you accept that power exchange and in others you resist it? but the tension is there nevertheless?
[20:31] <wild1ady> that is where trust comes into play... because once the power is exchanged, you need both in agreement to take it back or the power was never exchanged in the first place
[20:31] <Myrical> that is what it seemed he was saying
[20:31] <ravenshad> I agree there should be a base to start with..and that over time that base will grow depending on the people involved..
[20:31] <ravenshad> should TPE be a goal people strive for?
[20:32] <Myrical> I dont think so
[20:32] <AlstrBlck> I found out today that my new girlfriend likes the man to take control, so I did <EG>, but, I don't know how to drive, so if we have to go somewhere, she's in control of getting there and all that.
[20:32] <Soulhuntr> Power, and control, are so much broader in scope than fetish activity.... I am sure you display your displeasure in some ways to that waitress... and if she had an instinctive reaction to you as an alpha then she would have responded.
[20:32] <Bugs42`> it depends on the people raven, as for me, yes but I have to negotiate that with my partner, is that her goal?
[20:32] <wild1ady> that brings up a question... even if you give the power in the first place... there will be times when you resist it ? why?
[20:32] <ravenshad> I don't know..taking it back need not be something done in agreement with both...in reality, only one needs to do that..
[20:32] <ravenshad> good point Bugs..
[20:33] <AlstrBlck> We're planning on going on a 3-week vacation this summer, going cross country, and she will have control of the vehicle. If something happens, I'm stuck there.
[20:33] <ravenshad> that can be such a difficult question to answer wild..it would depend on the people..
[20:33] <ravenshad> but most likely..I would say fear of some sort is the most common reason one fights submission
[20:33] <wild1ady> but a common occurance none-the-less
[20:33] <^Guil> ....if you say that "if you're not striving to achieve TPE, if you've reached a level you're happy at, then you're not REALLY, TRULY into BDSM," then I would disagree, raven...but as the ultimate expression of our desires...sure
[20:33] <dekatia> i disagree Sh...ppl do not necessarially behave the same sexually that they do in r/l situations. I am extremely passive sexually but can be very assertive in day to day situations
[20:34] * fae{NR} agrees w/ dekatia *
[20:34] <ravenshad> I try not to say what makes a true BDSM relationship and what does not Guil, except when it comes to abuse..and for me the defining line is an informed choice to consent
[20:34] <^Guil> I didn't have time to actually express myself to her...instead I acted "assertively"...went to her manager....it's intriguing to consider what might have happened, because, yeah, it felt as if, if I pushed, she'd respond...
[20:35] <ravenshad> for many dekatia, being dominant or submissive is not just a sexualized thing..it is who they are..
[20:35] <iaspis> I am going to stumble over this but here goes, If you are in a 24/7 D/s relationship, how does TPE come into play? Just during "sessions" or all of the time?
[20:35] <wild1ady> not everyone is striving for total total total PE but the level that suits them. that doesn't make them any less BDSM
[20:35] <Soulhuntr> How one behaves in a specific situation does not, to me, define power... power to me is authority. Kimiko may be agressive in bed, but the autority is mine.
[20:35] <AlstrBlck> I've been told, dekatia, that for a Dom, I seem very sub, because it's so easy for my friends to just show up and "kidnap" me, dragging me all over the state, it seems. But once in a situation that requires my Dom-ness to show, it then comes out.
[20:35] <ravenshad> for me wild..all the time..
[20:36] <ravenshad> I agree wild..it doesn't make them any less BDSM in my opinion if their level of power exchange is not as high as someone else's..
[20:36] <KimiD> iaspis: I am under Soulhuntre's authority at all times.
[20:36] <iaspis> As I am under my Dom
[20:36] <^Guil> ...but not direct control, KimiD?
[20:36] <ravenshad> hiya mizu.. :)
[20:36] <Darktears> Speaking from personal experience... no one can last the 24/7 thing very long.
[20:37] <Darktears> I've never seen it work... ever.
[20:37] <dekatia> personally, i tire of ppl in "the scene" who relate to everything and everyone in their life as dom or sub. Sometimes i am just a person not a switch...
[20:37] <fae{NR}> Darktears, i'd be more apt to say not many instead of no one, it is possible
[20:37] <ravenshad> I think it depends on the people Darktears and whether or not they live the power exchange or are trying to live something that is truly not who they are..
[20:37] <AlstrBlck> I concurr, dekatia. Sometimes one cannot be "dom" or "sub", but a person.
[20:37] <KimiD> you would have to define Direct for me
[20:38] <Soulhuntr> Darktears, I think the 4 years Kimiko has been doing it counts :)
[20:38] <AlstrBlck> I have seen people forget that so many times, and they lose track of who they really are.
[20:38] <ravenshad> I think AB, that it depends on whether or not the person realizes who and waht they are..
[20:38] <KimiD> i am always a sub, reguardless of the fact that i'm a person
[20:38] <^Guil> ...he has set parameters for your behavior...expectations....within which you are free, subject alwasy to his direct orders...
[20:38] <dekatia> well i think this lifestyle can become to encompassing
[20:38] <ravenshad> if one is truly submissive, or dominant, throughout their entire personality..they can't lose site of who they are..it is who they are
[20:38] <Soulhuntr> All interactions between sentient creatures carry with it the subtext of power. There is always a 'dominat' and 'submissive' party.
[20:38] <AlstrBlck> remember, raven, what almost happened to me....
[20:39] <ravenshad> yes..but that wasn't from D/s AB..that was entirely seperate..
[20:39] <ravenshad> I have to agree with Soulhuntr..
[20:39] <fae{NR}> unlike KimiD, when i'm in my "sub mood", i'm completely different than when i'm at work, or even just a normal night at home, but for everyone it is bound to be different
[20:39] <^Ming> I agree with Soulhuntr
[20:39] <Bugs42`> agreed Soulhuntr, there is the hunter and the hunted as it were in all life
[20:39] <pyrette> I give my power freely...that is my ability to act and my ability to act gives me power
[20:40] <ravenshad> I am a mother..but even them I am a sub (which probably explains how easily the kids can get what they want) I can't step out of being a sub...though sometimes i wish I could.. <g>
[20:40] * fae{NR} can't afford to be the least bit submissive in most aspects of his work, otherise i'd lose my job *
[20:40] <AlstrBlck> yes, raven, but trying to live in the mode I was, the person I became, was a 24/7 job after a while, an illusion I was maintaining, and it almost killed me.
[20:40] <^Guil> I agree with SH....
[20:40] <^Ming> We simply could not function as a society if we did not Domunate... and submit... as appropriate for the situation
[20:40] <ravenshad> yes..but that was an illusion created for reasons other than BDSM..instead of being who you were..
[20:40] <Soulhuntr> Fae - this things are not defined, imho as moods, but as reactions to specific people... there is no one at work who strucks you as a dominant, therefore you do not act submissively.
[20:41] <KimiD> being submissive doesn't meant i can't handle myself in positions of authority
[20:41] <ravenshad> excellently said Kimi!!!
[20:41] <AlstrBlck> That's very true, Ming.
[20:41] <ravenshad> thank you :)
[20:41] <ravenshad> nowhere in power exchange does it say lay down and play stupid or you aren't submissive..
[20:41] <iaspis> I agree with you Kimi!
[20:41] <fae{NR}> actually Soulhuntr, there are a few people who striek me as dominant, but working where i was, i couldn't let them control at all, otherwise i'd be out the door
[20:42] <^Guil> ...but also, SH....the hierarchy at work is *artificial*....power is arranged differently than it might be naturally...it helps if "the boss" is a strong alpha...but strong alphas can occur in relatively "powerless" positions...
[20:42] <fae{NR}> even when i felt it was wrong
[20:42] * ravenshad remains quiet and hopes to finally understand what an alpha is..
[20:42] <ravenshad> ok..can only an alpha be a dominant?
[20:42] * KimiD smiles.
[20:43] <fae{NR}> no, an alpha IMHO is just the most dominant around at the current time and can easily change
[20:43] <^Guil> ...in a pack...the alpha is the lead....usually one male and one female, depending on species....humans are probably pack animals....
[20:43] <Soulhuntr> And those people usually control things far beyond their place in an org chart Guil :)
[20:43] * KimiD grins and waits.
[20:43] <Bugs42`> no, to me alpha simply means primary, my boss is alpha but not dominant
[20:43] <Soulhuntr> Depends... do you mean dominant in the broader sense? Or liek a top?
[20:43] <^Guil> agreed, SH....i was coming to that point with the example of the "Secretary who secretly controls everything"
[20:43] <ravenshad> broader sense..not a top..one who is a "lifestyle" dominant..
[20:44] <Soulhuntr> Then yes, the one who is dominant over another must, to some degree be considered their alpha ... it is almost a definition.
[20:44] <fae{NR}> raven, if you have say a poly relationship with one Dominant and two submissives, one of the submissives can also be dominant over the other
[20:44] <^Guil> ...hmm....I know alpha's in the sense i *think* SH means...I have no idea whether they're involved with BDSM as commonly defined...
[20:44] <ravenshad> I understand that fae..but I never completely understood Soulhuntr's definition..and damn, I'd like to..
[20:45] <^Guil> ..or in my case...I regard myself as dominant...but my wife is a stronger alpha than I am....I knew that when I married her...
[20:45] <ravenshad> ok..that would make sense that one who is a dominant must be alpha to the submissive..
[20:45] <ravenshad> but would they have to be alpha in general? outside of that BDSM relationship?
[20:46] <^Ming> Does a lifestyle Dominant mean the dominance is carried to a sexual relationship... or to all human relationships
[20:46] <ravenshad> OK..I understand that Guil.. :)
[20:46] * ravenshad has been called Alpha to some people..beta to others..rather confusing..
[20:46] <KimiD> in my definition lifesytle dominant means in all areas
[20:46] <Soulhuntr> Raven - depends on who they are interacting with in the wider world. These things are individual... liek the Japanese who decide who to bow to on a case by case basis.
[20:46] <^Guil> ...in a relationship....in play...in "scening"...who's a top and who's a bottom....I think the distinctions we're drawing are much less important...and I think that's what gets the conversation so confused...
[20:47] <ravenshad> Ahhh..ok..I get it..finally!!
[20:47] <Bakburnr> I have always thought that those who seek Dom(me) roles within a social structure are probably Dom(me).. whether they be human or wolf.
[20:47] <ravenshad> Thanks Soulhuntr :)
[20:47] <ravenshad> To you, is being dom or sub just a role?
[20:47] <fae{NR}> Bakburnr, i don't quite agree, in the outside world, i am a Dominant, but to my Mistress, i'm submissive
[20:48] <Soulhuntr> I am alpha to one person, but perhaps my waiter in a restaurant is someone who 'feels' like an alpha to me, but then I am alpha to the president of my company, etc etc.
[20:48] <fae{NR}> I've noticed that in several cases, the role a person plays outside of BDSM can be the exact opposite of that inside the lifestyle
[20:48] <ravenshad> Would whether or not one lets their dominance or submissiveness show depend on the situation?
[20:48] <Tatsumi> not to me Raven
[20:48] <^Ming> I think I amsubmissive at times... I got stopped for speeding.. and became quite submissive
[20:48] <Bakburnr> fae- well with humans, I believe we are more complex, and so take on a variety of roles within our lives.
[20:48] <^Guil> ....fae....do people react *instinctively* to your personality...or do they follow you out of respect for your position, skills, and experience?
[20:49] <ravenshad> I don't know if I'd call that submissive..or merely handling the particular situation correctly Ming..I mean everyone knows that if you mouth off to a cop you're asking for trouble..
[20:49] <fae{NR}> Guil, it's hard to be certain, but I'd say a little bit of both...let me explain some
[20:49] <KimiD> nor I
[20:49] <AlstrBlck> Soulhunter, I have noticed that quite a bit, and I know what it is. When someone thinks you're dumber than them, they treat you as so. if you show them you know what's going on, and you know more, they toll the line.
[20:49] <fae{NR}> i work as a systems engineer/systems administrator, so therefore i'm supposed to know how to fix whatever problem they're having...
[20:50] <fae{NR}> this can put me either in a dom or a sub role, depending on how i handle the situation...
[20:50] * ravenshad listens
[20:50] <^Guil> in that context, how do you define dom and sub?
[20:50] <Bakburnr> I find that some people mistake nice for sub in this world.
[20:51] <^Ming> I agree Bakburnr
[20:51] <fae{NR}> usually i take the dom role, even if i don't know the solution, i behave as if i do or can find out quite easily, and they usually take a submissive role to me both because of my knowledge, and to how i present myself
[20:51] <Bugs42`> raven is afk for a short period
[20:51] <Tatsumi> all life is situational
[20:51] <^Guil> "submissive" meaning?
[20:52] <Bakburnr> When I am nice to people, in general, they assume that means I am there to serve them in some way.
[20:52] <fae{NR}> that they will listen to me, not question what i'm doing and do what i say
[20:52] <^Guil> but is that the power of your *self*...or your knowledge....are they intimidated by the computer, or by you?
[20:52] <fae{NR}> but part of why they listen is also because (as Bakburnr is talking about) i'm also nice and don't try to lord over them my knowledge
[20:53] <^Guil> i.e. the old cliche knowledge = power
[20:53] <Tatsumi> fae - that is more about leadership than dominace
[20:53] <fae{NR}> i can't honestly say because i am not them and am not in their position
[20:53] <Bakburnr> people respond to respect... whether they are Dom(me) or sub or whatever...
[20:53] <Tatsumi> the two are not always related
[20:53] <fae{NR}> Tatsumi, and leadership does not require some dominance?
[20:53] <iaspis> I agree Bakburnr
[20:53] <^Ming> We can really only be totally Dominant or submissive with one we love and trust
[20:53] * ravenshad returns and scrolls back
[20:54] <sulis[TC]> I dont agree ming
[20:54] <Bakburnr> I agree Ming
[20:54] <Bugs42`> ok, I have a question about the power exchange.....when does or should it occur? I have been asked by two subs just today that when looking for a Dom/me they were told no questions... How do they learn if no questions are allowed?
[20:54] <iaspis> I agree with Ming too
[20:54] <fae{NR}> Bugs, i'd have to say that it is a case by case occurance...
[20:54] <Soulhuntr> Umm... sorry to say that I completely disagree Ming :)
[20:54] <Tatsumi> that's not at all true Ming
[20:55] <fae{NR}> with myself and my Mistress, many things can put PE on the back burner and we take opposite roles from lifestyle for various situations
[20:55] <ravenshad> I don't agree Ming..I'm sorry..
[20:55] <KimiD> i don't agree Ming
[20:55] <^Guil> if ^Ming means "express Dominance or submission" I agree....but there are people in this world with whom I'd describe my relationship only in power terms...
[20:55] <Bakburnr> Bugs, I would say that negotiation needs to occur before the scene begins... which, I would think, includes questions, etc.
[20:55] <ravenshad> I can be submissive with someone I do not love..Love is not neccessary to a power exchange..but it does make it nicer for some people.. :)
[20:56] <ravenshad> Negotiation and all that (which includes asking questions) must occur before a relationship becomes a comitted one..
[20:56] <^Ming> I just know I would not want power from one who does not trust me
[20:56] <^Guil> ....but, raven, to allow yourself to completely let go, completely submit....don't the love and trust need to be there?
[20:56] <ravenshad> anyone, in my opinion, that tells someone who is new to the lifestyle don't ask me questions..then there's a problem there..
[20:56] <ravenshad> no Guil they do not..
[20:56] <fae{NR}> i have been submissive, and even Dominant, in lifestyle with people i didn't love or trust w/ my life (level of trust is important factor to think on)
[20:56] * ravenshad learned that the hard way..
[20:56] <Tatsumi> yes raven
[20:56] <ravenshad> 6 months ago Guil, I would have said that for me..yes it would need to be there..but I learned otherwise..
[20:56] <fae{NR}> Guil, trust, yes...love no
[20:56] <ravenshad> exactly fae..
[20:57] <Bugs42`> I believe that trust is more important than love and trust means asking lots of questions
[20:57] <^Guil> isn't that circular logic, ^Ming....if they submit you they are trusting you...
[20:57] <ravenshad> for me, it's trust..if the trust is there and at least some amount of genuine caring, then yes I can completely let go..
[20:57] <^Guil> ah. fair enough fae.
[20:57] <^Guil> okay, raven, now I understand
[20:57] <sulis[TC]> I think that there are people out there that i feel could elicte a submissive response from me at any given time
[20:57] <ravenshad> not always Guil..many will submit without really having trust beacuse they think they *have* to obey every one who calls themselves dominant..
[20:57] <Tatsumi> Guil, it dcepends on the level of play involved
[20:57] <Bakburnr> Guil, good point.. submit = trust
[20:57] <sulis[TC]> that i dont love or trust for that matter
[20:57] <^Ming> Yes Guil... one can submit without trusting... but the outcome is often unpleasant
[20:57] <ravenshad> I have to agree with that sulis..and I've had it happen..
[20:58] <Soulhuntr> Raven - I hear that a lot, yet I never met anyone who actually believed it.
[20:58] <ravenshad> believed what?
[20:58] <ravenshad> things are scrolling quickly Soulhuntr..would you please clarify which statement you are responding to?
[20:59] <^Guil> all right...I have to accept the words of those who have been there...but I don't understand it....I don't want to really dominate someone who hasn't had time to learn to trust me...because that is an implicit limit on my dominance...
[20:59] <fae{NR}> Soulhuntr, i have (if you're talking about submiting w/o trusting because they feel they ahve to)
[20:59] <Bakburnr> I can understand someone submit without love, but how can one submit without trust?
[20:59] <ravenshad> fear Bakburnr..low self esteem..it's what they learned..
[20:59] <sulis[TC]> Talent wants me to say that he feels that although you can cause someon to submit to you out of fear or awe there will always be a part of them that is not truely yours because it was forced a part that is still fighting the domination
[20:59] <Soulhuntr> I put it in the "BDSM urban legend" section :)
[20:59] <KimiD> no. i trust my sensie..i certainly don't love him..i mean he's a nice guy and all..but :)
[20:59] <Tatsumi> submit ‚ trust ‚ love
[20:59] <Soulhuntr> That they must obey the orders of anyoen who claims to be a domiannt.
[20:59] <ravenshad> Ahhh Soulhuntr..I have seen it..
[20:59] <Tatsumi> they do NOT have to be dependant on each other
[20:59] <fae{NR}> in the case of one of my friends, she submitted out of fear, not trust
[20:59] <ravenshad> I know 2 subs who (in real life btw) that did it..and with devesstating results..
[21:00] <ravenshad> I will say it isn't a very common thing..but it does happen
[21:00] <^Guil> ..but I also believe trust is experienced as a learning curve....you learn to trust as you learn the one you trust is trustworthy...
[21:00] <Soulhuntr> ::shrugs:: Personally, I never have.
[21:00] <ravenshad> that I can agree with Guil..
[21:00] <Bakburnr> raven... that is sad. not a scene I would want to be a part of.
[21:00] <ravenshad> You started outside cyber Soulhuntr?
[21:00] * _mizu_ quietly takes out my tools and start's working
[21:00] <ravenshad> least I think you did..(If I recall correctly)
[21:00] <fae{NR}> unfortunately there are those out there who care only for their own jollys and not how they treat others
[21:01] <ravenshad> me either Bakburnr..
[21:01] <AlstrBlck> and those people always seem to wind up on the talk shows, fae.... "My husband treats me like a slave"
[21:01] <Soulhuntr> ::shrugs:: depends on your point of view. I went online when I was 13. I had dominant feelings before then... but I was sure online before I went R/L
[21:01] <ravenshad> I had someone call me the other day, who only learned what little she knew of BDSM from online..first question she asked me was does she need to obey every person that says they are dominant...
[21:01] <fae{NR}> okay, here's another question...how do you gain the trust of a person in a situation without putting yourself in a situation where you have to trust them
[21:01] <fae{NR}> ?
[21:01] <ravenshad> OK..thanks for clarifying my recollection.. :)
[21:02] <Tatsumi> fae - there are people like that in every area of life. aviod them
[21:02] <AlstrBlck> Those are the kind of people that do give D/S a bad name.
[21:02] <ravenshad> I can't speak for what online was 13 years ago..I never really bothered.. :)
[21:02] <^Guil> you can't, fae. trust is mutual...and grows incrementally...
[21:02] <Soulhuntr> This means, BTW that I have been online continuously as a social thing for more than 19 years :)
[21:02] <ravenshad> I would say get to know them fae..
[21:02] <Bakburnr> fae... answer, very slowly
[21:02] <fae{NR}> okay, so if you can trust them oustide a scene, you can trust them in one?
[21:03] * ravenshad was on a BBS when she was 19..but only for a few months..and never in an adult context..heck, didn't even know the term BDSM then.. LOL
[21:03] <ravenshad> trust your instincts fae..
[21:03] <^Guil> fae, the negation of that is certainly true...IF you can't trust them outside a scene, you can't trust them in one....
[21:03] * fae{NR} forgets when he found out what he was into was BDSM *
[21:03] <fae{NR}> then how do you know you can trust someone to say...tie you up?
[21:04] <ravenshad> heck, I played before I even knew what it was..
[21:04] <Bakburnr> fae... good question. I would assume so. Trust is universal.
[21:04] <ravenshad> unfortunately fae, I don't think it is something anyone can every really know for a solid fact..
[21:04] <^Guil> your own instincts, sense and judgment, fae...none of which can ever be surrendered
[21:04] <ravenshad> but..again, one's instincts are probably the best judge..
[21:04] <iaspis> you better know you can trust them or don't get involved
[21:04] <fae{NR}> Bakburnr (was playing a bit of devils advocate w/ question), i don't agree with that because some people may be manipulating you and you don't realize it until something happens, maybe in scene
[21:05] <ravenshad> but is manipulating someone a power exchange?
[21:05] <fae{NR}> iaspis, when i first met my current Mistress, i didn't know i could trust her, but she gave me no reason not to, so i went a little further with my trusting and she earned a little more each time, and now i trust her with my life
[21:06] <Bakburnr> fae... start with scenes that don't require being tied up.. and as someone else said.. trust your instincts.
[21:06] <fae{NR}> but when i first met her, i didn't know i could trust her at all
[21:06] <_mizu_> no, it happens all the time
[21:06] <iaspis> I agree with that, start out small
[21:06] <iaspis> build the trust
[21:06] <ravenshad> start out small works well.. :)
[21:06] <iaspis> if you can't, then don't go there
[21:06] <ravenshad> I agree one shouldn't jump in both feet first unless they know what they are getting in to..
[21:06] <pyrette> you ask a lot of questions...
[21:06] <fae{NR}> iaspis, i also didn't know that i couldn't trust her
[21:07] <^Guil> ...but how many of us do, anyway, raven?
[21:07] <ravenshad> Alot of us Guil!!.. LOL
[21:07] <ravenshad> it's like the "safe call" thing and don't play on a first meeting..
[21:07] <fae{NR}> (which i am afraid i'm guilty of)
[21:07] * ravenshad broke that rule a long time
[21:07] <ravenshad> ago
[21:07] <Bugs42`> I say if the person, Dom or sub does not answer questions, find someone else
[21:07] <pyrette> agree Raven
[21:07] <Bakburnr> fae... hmmm, then how would you ever know?
[21:07] <ravenshad> I agree with that Bugs..
[21:08] <Soulhuntr> If my instincts say I can jump, I do.
[21:08] <ravenshad> how does power exchange differ for those who consider BDSM a lifestyle vs those who just play once in a while..?
[21:08] <fae{NR}> sorry, was a little unclear, didn't know i could trust or not trust her, so gave her a little bit of trust, and she earned it, then a little more...etc. until now i trust her with my life
[21:08] <ravenshad> that is how it works, least from what I understand fae..
[21:09] <fae{NR}> but it started out with me not knowing if i could trust her or not...i didn't know her until we started going out (well, met her the day before)
[21:09] <iaspis> I also applaud these discussions for bringing heightened awareness for those of us (me) that are really new to D/s
[21:09] <^Guil> how does one separate the honest urgings of your instincts from self-serving rationalizations?
[21:09] <pyrette> if the dom or sub can't answer them something may be up too
[21:09] <Bakburnr> raven... I think PE is different for everyone who plays, lifestyler or not.
[21:09] <ravenshad> agreed pyrette.. :)
[21:09] <Soulhuntr> Guil - experience
[21:09] <ravenshad> Oh gosh Guil..you've asked a question I can't answer..<giggle>
[21:10] <ravenshad> please explain a bit more?
[21:10] <ravenshad> would that be how does one differentiate between needs and wants? or what is instinctual vs what one *thinks* they want?
[21:11] <^Guil> I agree SH...but I wanted to point out that since wiitwd is frowned upon by society at large, it's often difficult for those newly come to our lifestyle to honestly understand what they want and need...
[21:11] <fae{NR}> Guil, as for seperating honest urgings from self serving rationalizations, one first has to accept fully who and what they are, then examine what drives each
[21:11] <Tatsumi> it think that's way too personal to give an answre about
[21:11] <ravenshad> Ahh..ok got it..
[21:11] <Soulhuntr> I disagree Guil.. I think they know exactly what they need... I think they don;t know how to go about getting it :)
[21:12] <Tatsumi> i agree Soul'
[21:12] <ravenshad> One has to analyze themselves..know what is in themselves..doing so is often painful, and not everyone wants to do it to the extent that they must to decide if BdSM is instinctual for them or not
[21:12] <fae{NR}> actually Soulhuntr, i disagree with you, some people don't genuinely know what they want, so have to figure out a way of getting an idea first
[21:12] <iaspis> that is well said Soulhuntr
[21:12] <^Ming> I agree Tat... Everyone has different limits whether part-time or Lifestyler
[21:12] <Bugs42`> Agree with that one Soulhuntr
[21:12] <ravenshad> well said Soulhuntr..there is that too..
[21:12] <ravenshad> does it help others to hear about the different variances in the lifestyle instead of presenting it as only doable one way?
[21:13] <iaspis> doesn't work for everyone the same way
[21:13] <Bugs42`> I think if they are here they have an idea of what they want
[21:13] <Bugs42`> a concept anyway
[21:13] <iaspis> absolutely raven
[21:13] <fae{NR}> very much so raven, letting people know that there is no OneTruePath is very importatn
[21:13] <Tatsumi> i agree
[21:13] <^Ming> I think fae's example of giving power a bit at a time... until one finds there comfort zone
[21:14] <Bugs42`> Gosh, you mean no set rules, nothing carved in stone?
[21:14] <ravenshad> LOLOL
[21:14] <ravenshad> yes
[21:14] <fae{NR}> a concept Bugs, yes!
[21:14] * _mizu_ giggles
[21:14] <Tatsumi> lol - yes Bugs
[21:14] <Bakburnr> LOL
[21:14] <ravenshad> there isn't anything carved in stone when it comes to BDSM..
[21:14] <sulis[TC]> But soul, one may know what they need when they come in i have always known (since i was very young) that i needed something i was not getting but it wasnt until i started exploreing and talking and expeiercing that i really understood what that "thing" that i felt was missing in my life was
[21:14] * ravenshad really ticked some people off when she said that the other day.. LOLOLOL
[21:15] <fae{NR}> sure there is raven, it's the following rule: "No Rules are carved in stone" *gryn*
[21:15] <_mizu_> never been normal, was trained diffrent from all that i have met
[21:15] <ravenshad> LOL fae!! ^5
[21:15] <Bugs42`> we find the partner(s) that suits our wants and needs and go from there.
[21:15] <ravenshad> (^5 means high five for those who don't know)
[21:15] <ravenshad> what the hell is normal anyway???
[21:15] <_mizu_> dose put me a bit outside most of the time
[21:15] <ravenshad> you're welcome Tatsumi :)
[21:15] <iaspis> Yea!!...Bugs42
[21:15] <ravenshad> That was a rhetorical question!
[21:15] <fae{NR}> (of course, that statement is in and of itself a paradox, but that's another discussion)
[21:16] <Tatsumi> lol
[21:16] <AlstrBlck> normal is what makes you content.
[21:16] <ravenshad> I know for me what I wanted..but damn if I could put words to it until 2 years ago..
[21:16] <ravenshad> Good one AB!! I like that :)
[21:16] <Tatsumi> good answer Alstr
[21:16] <_mizu_> and drive other nut's that don't understand
[21:16] <Soulhuntr> sulis - sometimes that is true ... but about all things, not just this lifestyle.
[21:16] <ravenshad> yes mizu!
[21:16] * fae{NR} ^5's Alstr *
[21:16] <Tatsumi> not stickly true, but it shluld be:)
[21:16] <Soulhuntr> normal is what 51% of the people do :)
[21:16] <ravenshad> What, to you, is a healthy power exchange? and what is not?
[21:16] * _mizu_ giggles
[21:17] <Tatsumi> healthy?
[21:17] <AlstrBlck> Some people are content driving a big fancy car around, windows up, air conditioner on, whilst others are content to ride the city bus, meeting people along the way.
[21:17] <Tatsumi> define healthy fisrt:)
[21:17] <iaspis> goes back to what AB said
[21:17] <ravenshad> **Disclaimer*** please remember that your nicks will be used on the web site unless you request otherwise, when the logs are posted
[21:17] <ravenshad> healthy meaning, something that does not destroy the people involved's self esteem..
[21:17] <ravenshad> or their personalities..
[21:18] <ravenshad> true AB
[21:18] <Bakburnr> I think you just answered your own question, raven
[21:18] <ravenshad> I know I did..was looking for other's opinion Bakburnr :)
[21:18] <Soulhuntr> I am waiting for someone to tell me what 'self esteem' is, and why it is so important.
[21:18] <pyrette> to freely give my submission is healty
[21:19] <ravenshad> self esteem, to me Soulhuntr, is being able to believe you are a decent person..
[21:19] <Soulhuntr> It usually seems to be kissing your own ass :)
[21:19] <ravenshad> trust me..you have it :)
[21:19] <ravenshad> naww..kissing one's own ass is nothing more than an ego trip
[21:19] <ravenshad> and usually hides a lack of self esteem
[21:19] <Tatsumi> Daddy's joking a bit:)
[21:19] * ravenshad giggles
[21:19] <Tatsumi> lol
[21:19] <ravenshad> oops..sorry Tatsumi..thanks for telling me :)
[21:19] <fae{NR}> are self esteem and self respect the same/similar at all?
[21:19] <iaspis> i disagree Raven, because I feel I am a decent person, yet my self-esteem is lacking
[21:19] <ravenshad> to me they are fae..
[21:19] <AlstrBlck> self esteem, SoulHunter, is being able to keep your head up high and keep trying, regardless of how many times you get shot down.
[21:20] <Tatsumi> np:)
[21:20] <Soulhuntr> "I am healthy, happy, and in demand"
[21:20] <ravenshad> everyone goes through periods of time where they doubt themsevles..that is not neccessary a self esteem problem..
[21:20] <pyrette> being proud of who and what you are
[21:20] <Bakburnr> I think they are, fae
[21:20] <Soulhuntr> ravenshad - but there are some truly bad people in the world, it is not a bad thing for them to admit this :)
[21:21] <ravenshad> isn't bad up to one's perceptions of what is right or wrong?
[21:21] <Soulhuntr> "I am popular, I am good, and darn it, people like me"
[21:21] <sulis[TC]> Gee Soul doesnt have an ego does he?
[21:21] <ravenshad> ok..we're off topic.. LOLOL
[21:21] * ravenshad thinks of Saturday Night Live and ROFL
[21:21] * _mizu_ giggles
[21:22] <Soulhuntr> I am being kind of funny, but serious as well... if an honest self evaluation tells you you should be ashamed of yourself, then it is not a problem to not be proud.
[21:22] <ravenshad> Can a power exchange exist out of fear on the submissive's part?
[21:22] <Soulhuntr> It seems that self esteem is unconditional self love... and I don;t think THAT is healthy.
[21:22] <ravenshad> I have to agree with that Soulhuntr..
[21:22] <Bugs42`> yes, it can, but that is not really consentual
[21:22] <Soulhuntr> "I believe in the power of me"
[21:22] <fae{NR}> very much so, i'd tend to say that most abusive relationships are a power exchange out of fear
[21:22] <ravenshad> it isn't..but I don't define self esteem that way..I include the ability to see one's "bad" points and strive to make them better..
[21:23] <Bakburnr> Soul, perhaps it should be called Self Estimation and not Self Esteem.
[21:23] * ravenshad thinks self esteem should be an entirely seperate topic
[21:23] <ravenshad> that would work Bakburnr.. :)
[21:23] <Tatsumi> i agree Raven:)
[21:23] <ravenshad> would such a power exchange then be considered part of BDSM?
[21:23] <fae{NR}> the person fears what happens in the relationship, but fears more taking away the power that was exchanged, afraid of the consequences of having their own power back and not in control of another
[21:23] <Soulhuntr> Technically? sure. Power is taken by many means... fear is one of them. I don't think we approve, but it is possible.
[21:23] <Soulhuntr> It depends on how you define BDSM raven :)
[21:23] <Bugs42`> it could be, yes, but as in all types of relatiosnhips there is abuse
[21:24] <ravenshad> I have to agree that it is possible..very much so..
[21:24] <Tatsumi> yup
[21:24] <ravenshad> explain please Soulhuntr?
[21:26] <iaspis> someone asked, if someones fears what will happen to the relationship and gives over power, is that a true exchange?
[21:27] <ravenshad> yes I did iaspis..
[21:27] <ravenshad> Depends on how you define power exchange..
[21:27] <ravenshad> as the words themselves..yes it is an exchange of power
[21:27] <Bakburnr> its an exchange, but now we're back to a question of what's healthy
[21:27] <ravenshad> is it a BDSM power exchange, by my definition, no it isn't
[21:27] <iaspis> I don't happen to believe that is a true exchange
[21:27] <ravenshad> same answer Bakburnr
[21:27] <Bugs42`> it depends on the depth of the fear and no, I don't see that as true exchange, again, it isn't really consentual
[21:27] <Talent> :)
[21:28] <ravenshad> it lacks one thing..
[21:28] <ravenshad> the informed choice to consent
[21:28] <ravenshad> that is what seperates abuse from BdSM in my opinion
[21:28] <sulis[TC]> But isnt any human interaction a exchange of power of some kind
[21:28] <Bakburnr> the power has been exchanged.... not consentually, not in a healthy way.
[21:28] <_mizu_> mostly
[21:28] <Bugs42`> yes, sulis it is
[21:29] <iaspis> but they are consenting, only out of fear
[21:29] <ravenshad> just for information purposes to those who are new (and will be reading the web sitea) could everyone please post their amount of experience in BDSM?
[21:29] <Bakburnr> I'm saying that abuse has at its core a power exchange... but does not make it BDSM
[21:29] <sulis[TC]> I think that all the terms and labels is about the only thing that bothers me about talking about this lifestyle
[21:29] <Bakburnr> sulis, that I think is true... all human interaction has some level of power exchange.. probably more like juggling.
[21:29] <_mizu_> damm, now i need to think
[21:29] * Bugs42` about 15 years r/l
[21:30] * fae{NR} thinks: Online about 4 years, r/l about 7 years, living w/ Domme, about 1 1/2 years *
[21:30] <Bakburnr> for me about 1 year.
[21:30] <sulis[TC]> that is hard to say
[21:30] <sulis[TC]> D/s is who we are
[21:30] <^Ming> zero for me
[21:30] <ravenshad> with physical play to varying intensity 14 years or so..
[21:31] <Bakburnr> oh, for me R/L 1 year... online 0.
[21:31] <iaspis> for me about 3 months R/T, years without knowing
[21:31] <ravenshad> mental aspects with the actual terminology..2 years..
[21:31] <ravenshad> give or take a few months
[21:31] * AlstrBlck : 15 years r/l, 5 online.
[21:31] <_mizu_> about 14 years i think
[21:31] <pyrette> none for me raven :-(
[21:31] <fae{NR}> oh, with actual terminology, about 4 years r/l (dabbled & played before, but didn't know anything "official"
[21:31] <_mizu_> samll gap for a bit
[21:32] <ravenshad> ok..just makes it a bit easier for those reading the logs to understand where everyone is coming from..thanks all :)
[21:32] <sulis[TC]> Was i not Submissive when i was a child, because i didnt know what D/s ment, i dont think so i can never remember a time that i was not submissive
[21:32] <ravenshad> understood sulis.. :)
[21:32] <sulis[TC]> Talent feels the same way
[21:33] <sulis[TC]> He to this day does not really consider himself a Dom he is just a Dominant person who is in control of his home if that makes him a dom then that makes him a dom
[21:33] * fae{NR} yawns, looks at the bed, and at the UNIX manual *
[21:33] <ravenshad> interesting view sulis.. :)
[21:34] <ravenshad> I've heard some people say similar things.. :)
[21:34] <Bakburnr> sulis, interesting, but I'm not sure I understand what Talent means.
[21:35] <Tatsumi> i have 8 years R/T and almost 1 year 24/7
[21:35] <ravenshad> I've heard a term come up, which is EPE (erotic power exchange), what is your view of that term?
[21:35] <ravenshad> do those who only do power exchange in an erotic situation fit in BDSM?
[21:36] <Tatsumi> sure they fit
[21:36] <_mizu_> no, there are difrent types
[21:36] <Bakburnr> rave... IMO of course
[21:36] <Tatsumi> as long as everyone involved is having fun <in one way or another> and some power is exchanged, then it is BDSM to me
[21:36] <ravenshad> I agree there Tat.. :)
[21:36] <Bakburnr> I agree with Tats
[21:37] <Tatsumi> :)
[21:37] <ravenshad> no mizu?
[21:37] <_mizu_> do not see vampireiszm as BDSM (giggle)
[21:38] * ravenshad laughs
[21:38] * ravenshad won't get into blood sports..
[21:38] <ravenshad> yet anyway
[21:38] <Tatsumi> it could be mizu:) heheheh
[21:38] <_mizu_> see
[21:38] <Tatsumi> mmm, blood sports:)
[21:38] <Tatsumi> <wink>
[21:38] <ravenshad> OK..when, in your opinion, does a power exchange go too far?
[21:38] <ravenshad> (thinking of what people call micro-managing here)
[21:39] <sulis[TC]> Talent says:He says that he has always been Dominant personality wise and he has a problem with being asked how long he has been involved with BDSM because being Dominant, and slightly sadistic is who he is and not something he does for a hobby
[21:39] <ravenshad> I understand sulis..not a problem.. :)
[21:39] <_mizu_> when the pain is no longer fun
[21:39] <sulis[TC]> raven i think that is a personal thing
[21:39] <Tatsumi> ok sulis, how long have you been practicing BDSM in physical terms?
[21:39] <Bakburnr> when the sub uses his/her safe word...
[21:39] <Bakburnr> any further than that is too far.
[21:40] <Bakburnr> sulis, I understand... thanks
[21:40] <ravenshad> does a safeword give power to a sub?
[21:40] <Bugs42`> when it exceeds the boundaries of the relationship
[21:40] <Tatsumi> ah, but saome of us don't have safe words <staring a hellova topic>
[21:40] <ravenshad> I think there is some lag here sulis..
[21:40] <ravenshad> (gonna cover that next week Tatsumi..<grin>)
[21:41] <Tatsumi> cool raven:)
[21:41] * ravenshad pings sulis..with no response yet..
[21:41] <Bakburnr> raven... the safe word is the power of the sub.
[21:41] <ravenshad> no problem Tatsumi :)
[21:41] * _mizu_ giggles
[21:41] <ravenshad> but what if the sub doesn't want that power?
[21:41] <Bakburnr> Tats... no safe words? this is new to me.
[21:41] <ravenshad> does that put the relationship outside of BDSM terms and into the realm of abuse?
[21:41] <KimiD> i dont have one either
[21:41] * ravenshad tries to keep safewords on topic with power exchange only..
[21:42] <Tatsumi> when a dom and a sub are involved in a trusting D/S relationship, they sometimes eliminate the use of safewords
[21:42] <KimiD> i can give condition reports but i can not just STOP the scene
[21:42] <KimiD> what raven?
[21:42] <ravenshad> I only have one beacuse of my back making it neccessary to have one..I prefer not to have one..
[21:42] <ravenshad> true Tat.. :)
[21:42] <Bakburnr> raven, then that's a lot of responsibility for the Top;
[21:42] <KimiD> np raven :)
[21:42] <KimiD> it damn well should be his responsibility
[21:42] <_mizu_> no raven, if the sub and Dom know each other well, then one would not be needed
[21:42] <Tatsumi> yes it is Bak
[21:42] <ravenshad> yes it is Backburnr..but isn't that responsibility part of being dominant?
[21:42] <pyrette> if you dont have one does that mean you have trust that your Dom knows your limits
[21:43] <Tatsumi> might not be needed Mixu
[21:43] <ravenshad> lets face it..you put a sub in tight bondage..who is responsible for his/her safety?
[21:43] <ravenshad> I would say yes pyrette..
[21:43] <Tatsumi> depends on personal comfort levels
[21:43] <Tatsumi> yes Pyr
[21:43] <ravenshad> but then again, not everyone allows limits either.. :)
[21:43] <Bugs42`> yes pyrette, it means a lot of trust
[21:43] <Bakburnr> my sub hasn't used her safeword in a while. I assumed it was because I was becoming a bit more astute. But I had not considered eliminating it.
[21:43] <_mizu_> yes pyrette
[21:43] <Tatsumi> true raven:)
[21:43] <pyrette> and Tatsumi
[21:43] <ravenshad> safewords will usually disssappear on their own in a long term relationship :)
[21:44] <Bakburnr> raven, yes, but responsible to be a mindreader... I'm not sure that would be ok with me.
[21:44] <KimiD> um..raven can i reply to bak on that?
[21:44] <ravenshad> yes Kimi you can.. :)
[21:44] <Talent> thnx raven
[21:44] <Tatsumi> i wpouldn't eliminate it until you both are comfortable with the fact that it is no longer needed Bak
[21:44] <Tatsumi> :)
[21:44] <ravenshad> mindreader? no..I wouldn't say anyone expects a dom to be a mindreader..but yes, a dom should have at least a basic knowledge of the general physical responses in a human being to certain stimuli..
[21:44] <ravenshad> and know their partner's respones even better
[21:44] <ravenshad> well said Tat.. :)
[21:45] <Bakburnr> Tats, well it isn't something I had considered until this moment.
[21:45] <Bugs42`> when you reach the point of no safeword, is that total power exchange?
[21:45] <sulis[TC]> Tat that is a tough one too bacuase for as long as i have been sexual even with myself i have done things like tie my feet together or pinch or torture my nipples stuff like that
[21:45] <Tatsumi> i would wait. one possible reason some subs don't use safewords <even if they have them> is b/c they don't want to "fail" in the eyes of thier Dom
[21:46] <ravenshad> I would say that would be part of it yes..but what total power exchange involves does depend on each individual relationship
[21:46] <Tatsumi> thanks raven:)
[21:46] <Bakburnr> I had assumed that it was the only safe way to go about BDSM... guess that goes back to nothing written in stone
[21:46] <ravenshad> yw Tat.. :)
[21:46] <Tatsumi> nice tie back to the original topic Bugs:)
[21:46] <ravenshad> From what I understand, SSC is relatively new.. :)
[21:46] <Tatsumi> yep bak - nothing is absolute in this kinky world:)
[21:47] <ravenshad> exactly Bak :)
[21:47] <ravenshad> Does SSC impede a power exchange in your opinion?
[21:47] <Tatsumi> Sulis, i'm not sure what you're referring to. sorry - too many things goin by too fast:)
[21:47] <Bakburnr> SSC? I missed what that means, sorry
[21:47] <ravenshad> Safe Sane Consensual..SSC
[21:48] <ravenshad> she's referring to being asked her phsyical experience, I believe it was, Tat..
[21:48] <_mizu_> nope, keep's it in check
[21:48] <Tatsumi> Safe Sane Consentual
[21:48] <Tatsumi> it's the BDSM buzz words
[21:48] <Tatsumi> oh! ok:)
[21:48] <ravenshad> length of time with physical experience I think..sorry
[21:48] <Bakburnr> rave.. oh, thanks
[21:48] <sulis[TC]> when you asked me how long i have been practicing bdsm in physical terms
[21:48] <Tatsumi> sulis, how long has Talent been tying you up and hitting you?
[21:48] <ravenshad> Is a power exchange mental in nature? or does it require the physical B/d and S/m??
[21:49] <Tatsumi> thanks Raven:)
[21:49] <ravenshad> excellent..10 second ping sulis.. :)
[21:49] <_mizu_> it can be all three
[21:49] <sulis[TC]> tieing me up for as long as we have been togther
[21:49] <ravenshad> yes it can be mizu..but does it require all 3 to be an exchange?
[21:49] <Talent> hitting- no spanking- yes :)
[21:49] <Bugs42`> in some ways, yes I belive SSc does impede the power exchange... they are different for everyone and you have to reach an agreement on them before the power exchange begins
[21:49] <Tatsumi> it's mostly mental <hence cyber> but the physical is neccessary for me to do it too
[21:49] <ravenshad> I agree with you Bugs.. :)
[21:49] <sulis[TC]> hehehe if he hit me i would be out cold
[21:50] <KimiD> that depends raven...my service to Soulhuntre is PE related and that has nothing to do with physical OR sexual
[21:50] <_mizu_> no just one, or all
[21:50] <Tatsumi> lol
[21:50] <Tatsumi> you know what i mean!
[21:50] <KimiD> though i like both of the others :)
[21:50] <ravenshad> for me, the power exchange (or D/s) is mental and emotional..but damn the physical stuff is nice too :)
[21:50] * _mizu_ giggles
[21:50] * ravenshad grins..
[21:51] <ravenshad> Well all, we've been going for almost 2 hours...anyone have any last questions before I wrap it up for the night?
[21:51] <sulis[TC]> I have to agree with kimi
[21:52] <ravenshad> OK ..I have one last one..Kimi, you state it has nothing to dow ith phyiscal or sexual for you, what does it have to do with?
[21:53] <ravenshad> anyone have problems with me leaving nicks in the logs??
[21:54] <Tatsumi> feel free to use mine raven and if anyone's interested we just put up the Training VS Romance articles on The Estate site
[21:54] <ravenshad> yes I read them..
[21:54] <ravenshad> very interesting..enjoyed them.. :)
[21:54] <Tatsumi> the Protocol what and why articles will be up in a few days
[21:54] <Tatsumi> thanks raven:)
[21:54] <KimiD> i enjoy serving him in the terms of helping him run his life, being a useful and valuable resource.
[21:54] <KimiD> does that make sense?
[21:54] <AlstrBlck> Nope, feel free to use mine, rave.
[21:54] <ravenshad> ok then..the logs of last week's and this week's discussion will be up tonight before I go to bed.. ;)
[21:54] <sulis[TC]> cant wait
[21:54] <ravenshad> Ohhh..now that I want to read Tat.. ;)
[21:54] <ravenshad> yes that makes ALOT of sense Kimi!! Thank you.. :)
[21:55] <Bugs42`> it does indeed KimiD
[21:55] <sulis[TC]> makes a lot of sense to me kimi
[21:55] <sulis[TC]> I feel the same way about Talent
[21:55] <ravenshad> Thank you all, this went very very well..I appreciate everyone's participation and input.. :)
ENDDiscussion Text
[20:12] * ravenshad says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions on BDSM the following rules apply..
[20:12] <ravenshad> you must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave
[20:13] <ravenshad> legal age being 18 or 21..
[20:13] <ravenshad> no trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night
[20:13] <ravenshad> if you troll, you will be kicked and possibly banned
[20:13] <ravenshad> be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[20:13] <ravenshad> all statements are publishable on the web site, with nicks changed (at your request, email webmaster@leathernroses.com if you don't want your nick used.
[20:14] <ravenshad> Tonight's topic is Power exchange..I expect to be covering what it is, how it applies to BDSM and many other aspects...
[20:14] <ravenshad> this discussion will be the same as the two prior..that being a question answer..
[20:14] <ravenshad> please feel free to toss out questions..or state your opinion..
[20:17] <ravenshad> what is a power exchange to you?
[20:17] <Bugs42`> I see power exchange as the reason for D/s
[20:18] <ravenshad> ok..this it is..but what *is* a power exchange exactly?
[20:18] <fae{NR}> to me, a power exchange is when you and someone(s) else place control over various aspects of life in the other(s) control,
[20:18] <fae{NR}> this could be in the sex life, or in everyday life, such as household chores
[20:18] <AlstrBlck> It's trust.
[20:18] <fae{NR}> Power Exchange doesn't have to be limited to the D/s lifestyle thought
[20:18] <wild1ady> it could be all or parts of life
[20:18] <fae{NR}> though even
[20:19] <ravenshad> ok..if it is the giving of control over yourself to someone else..where does the word exchange fit in? doesn't the word exchange imply getting something in return?
[20:19] <fae{NR}> here's a standard household example, a woman has a job, the man doesn't, so while she makes the money, he cleans the house and maybe takes care of the kids if there are
[20:19] <fae{NR}> he controls the home, she controls the finances
[20:19] <Mirycal> It is when you exchange power between both partners
[20:20] <Mirycal> I agree with fae
[20:20] <ravenshad> ok..
[20:20] <fae{NR}> well, when you give someone power over part of your life, you are expecting fair (or just?) treatment in return
[20:20] <wild1ady> exchange... one gives and one receives
[20:20] <ravenshad> if it is an exchange..would it be safe to say that a sub gives control of herself to a dominant and recieves dominance in return for that control?
[20:20] <ravenshad> I agree there fae..:)
[20:21] * fae{NR} nods *
[20:21] <fae{NR}> i agree with you as well rave
[20:21] <^Guil> define "just or fair", fae....
[20:21] <ravenshad> so this giving to each other, of what the other needs..defines the exchange part of it?
[20:21] <Mirycal> Yes I will agree with that raven
[20:21] <^Guil> if you many ..."equal....clearly no..
[20:21] <ravenshad> D/s is not equal..
[20:21] <fae{NR}> just or fair really depends on the people involved, so it's almost impossible to define
[20:21] <ravenshad> but I think that's why we enjoy it..
[20:22] * ^Guil nods...
[20:22] <ravenshad> partly why anyway..<eg>
[20:22] <Soulhuntr> :;thinks:: personally, I don't know that I agree completely with that.
[20:22] <ravenshad> ok Soulhuntr..what would you say?
[20:22] <fae{NR}> fair to one couple could be a severe punishment for forgetting to say "master or mistress", while it would be very unfair in another relationship
[20:22] <wild1ady> it is only equal in what one gives the other receives in the same amount
[20:22] <ravenshad> I don't know wild..not always will a sub's wants be met in equal amounts as the dominants..
[20:23] <fae{NR}> i think that there is a lot more than just the receiving of dominance/control in PE though, that's only one level of uit
[20:23] <^Guil> hmm.....anyone ever hear of Maslow's hierarchy of needs?
[20:23] <Soulhuntr> The word exchange, to me, implies an agreed upon, reasoned transaction. Yet, some relationships are nothing of the type. A sub reacts to a dominant by submitting... no agreement, no exchange, no thought. That is not, to me, and excahnge.
[20:23] <ravenshad> I haven't Guil..
[20:23] <fae{NR}> no Guil, please elaborate on it
[20:23] <ravenshad> good point Soulhuntr...and you are right..
[20:23] <^Guil> at the bottom is oxygen....at the top is "self-actualization"
[20:23] <wild1ady> no... but the control she gives up is the same control that the dom receives
[20:24] <Bugs42`> yes, I have Guil
[20:24] <AlstrBlck> I seem to recall reading somewhere someone said that by giving up the power of themself, letting someone else have power over parts of her life made her freer.
[20:24] <ravenshad> though..if one stretches it just a bit..wouldn't that response be the exchange?
[20:24] <fae{NR}> Soulhuntr, not all relationships don't have such an agreement though, some do and things are spelled out quite clearly
[20:24] <^Guil> ....but the whole point to wiitwd is that self-actualization is unique to individuals...
[20:24] <Tatsumi> i can see that Soul
[20:24] <^Guil> ...what is the perfect expression of self for one person... a slave or submissive...might be hideous abuse to one who is not...
[20:24] <ravenshad> true Guil...very true..
[20:25] <ravenshad> Many advocate the setting of a prearranged deal so to speak, in order for a BDSM relationship to include a true power exchange..what do you think of that?
[20:26] <^Guil> ...the key is....I'm coming to agree with Soulhuntr in some respects....dominance and submission is what it is...
[20:26] <Soulhuntr> You can't 'negotiate' the exchange of real power... it is instinctual. You can negotiate its expression at times.
[20:26] <ravenshad> I agree there Guil.. :)
[20:26] <ravenshad> I agree Soulhuntr..in many cases you can't negotiate what is done instinctually..
[20:26] <ravenshad> but that brings in to play whether or not being a dominant or a sub is an instinctive thing or not..
[20:27] <fae{NR}> I can't say TPE can be agreed upon before, it's a relationship that is always in flux due to todays world
[20:27] <^Guil> ...but you must negotiate to identify those with whom it is acceptable to allow that natural flow of power to be realized....
[20:27] <ravenshad> Can a true TPE (TOTAL power exchange) really exist in this world? or are we fooling ourselves?
[20:27] <fae{NR}> raven, i feel that there are several different ways to be into D/s
[20:27] <ravenshad> there most certainly are fae.. :)
[20:27] <fae{NR}> i think that there are actually some instinctual, some doing it for kicks, some doing it out of rebelion, and many other kinds that do wiitwd
[20:28] <Soulhuntr> Doesnt the power flow no matter what? Arent all interactions power based?
[20:28] <wild1ady> TPE "in my opinion" can't be agreed upon... it has to be lived and grown into
[20:28] <dekatia> i think a total power exchange IS possible...however it takes time because you must develop a whole lot of trust for that
[20:28] <ravenshad> agreed dekatia..
[20:28] <^Guil> specific example....today I found myself wanting to discipline a waitress who was doing a piss-poor job serving me - lousy job, lousy attitude....but I refrained because with the broader contexts of our society (not our BDSM subculture...) you can't do that...
[20:28] <fae{NR}> whether TPE can exist in todays world depends on many things, once again, the most important is definition...
[20:28] <Bugs42`> I think in the beginning it should be agreed upon as to how much power is exchanged
[20:28] <fae{NR}> it is possible, but may be very inconvenient forthe people involved
[20:28] <ravenshad> intersting point Soulhuntr..and yes, you are right..if one looks at just about any situation in life, you will find some sort of power exchange there..
[20:29] <^Guil> yes and no, SH....yes that is part of the reality...no, that cannot always be acknowledged...
[20:29] <fae{NR}> Bugs, i can't agree there unfortunately...everything is in flux, and today i might let someone have a particular power over me, that tomorrow i may find that i can't do without in some situation
[20:30] <Bugs42`> I agree fae but there should be a ground rule or base to start from or neither would ever know where they stand
[20:30] <^Guil> ....fae....do you mean that in some cases you accept that power exchange and in others you resist it? but the tension is there nevertheless?
[20:31] <wild1ady> that is where trust comes into play... because once the power is exchanged, you need both in agreement to take it back or the power was never exchanged in the first place
[20:31] <Myrical> that is what it seemed he was saying
[20:31] <ravenshad> I agree there should be a base to start with..and that over time that base will grow depending on the people involved..
[20:31] <ravenshad> should TPE be a goal people strive for?
[20:32] <Myrical> I dont think so
[20:32] <AlstrBlck> I found out today that my new girlfriend likes the man to take control, so I did <EG>, but, I don't know how to drive, so if we have to go somewhere, she's in control of getting there and all that.
[20:32] <Soulhuntr> Power, and control, are so much broader in scope than fetish activity.... I am sure you display your displeasure in some ways to that waitress... and if she had an instinctive reaction to you as an alpha then she would have responded.
[20:32] <Bugs42`> it depends on the people raven, as for me, yes but I have to negotiate that with my partner, is that her goal?
[20:32] <wild1ady> that brings up a question... even if you give the power in the first place... there will be times when you resist it ? why?
[20:32] <ravenshad> I don't know..taking it back need not be something done in agreement with both...in reality, only one needs to do that..
[20:32] <ravenshad> good point Bugs..
[20:33] <AlstrBlck> We're planning on going on a 3-week vacation this summer, going cross country, and she will have control of the vehicle. If something happens, I'm stuck there.
[20:33] <ravenshad> that can be such a difficult question to answer wild..it would depend on the people..
[20:33] <ravenshad> but most likely..I would say fear of some sort is the most common reason one fights submission
[20:33] <wild1ady> but a common occurance none-the-less
[20:33] <^Guil> ....if you say that "if you're not striving to achieve TPE, if you've reached a level you're happy at, then you're not REALLY, TRULY into BDSM," then I would disagree, raven...but as the ultimate expression of our desires...sure
[20:33] <dekatia> i disagree Sh...ppl do not necessarially behave the same sexually that they do in r/l situations. I am extremely passive sexually but can be very assertive in day to day situations
[20:34] * fae{NR} agrees w/ dekatia *
[20:34] <ravenshad> I try not to say what makes a true BDSM relationship and what does not Guil, except when it comes to abuse..and for me the defining line is an informed choice to consent
[20:34] <^Guil> I didn't have time to actually express myself to her...instead I acted "assertively"...went to her manager....it's intriguing to consider what might have happened, because, yeah, it felt as if, if I pushed, she'd respond...
[20:35] <ravenshad> for many dekatia, being dominant or submissive is not just a sexualized thing..it is who they are..
[20:35] <iaspis> I am going to stumble over this but here goes, If you are in a 24/7 D/s relationship, how does TPE come into play? Just during "sessions" or all of the time?
[20:35] <wild1ady> not everyone is striving for total total total PE but the level that suits them. that doesn't make them any less BDSM
[20:35] <Soulhuntr> How one behaves in a specific situation does not, to me, define power... power to me is authority. Kimiko may be agressive in bed, but the autority is mine.
[20:35] <AlstrBlck> I've been told, dekatia, that for a Dom, I seem very sub, because it's so easy for my friends to just show up and "kidnap" me, dragging me all over the state, it seems. But once in a situation that requires my Dom-ness to show, it then comes out.
[20:35] <ravenshad> for me wild..all the time..
[20:36] <ravenshad> I agree wild..it doesn't make them any less BDSM in my opinion if their level of power exchange is not as high as someone else's..
[20:36] <KimiD> iaspis: I am under Soulhuntre's authority at all times.
[20:36] <iaspis> As I am under my Dom
[20:36] <^Guil> ...but not direct control, KimiD?
[20:36] <ravenshad> hiya mizu.. :)
[20:36] <Darktears> Speaking from personal experience... no one can last the 24/7 thing very long.
[20:37] <Darktears> I've never seen it work... ever.
[20:37] <dekatia> personally, i tire of ppl in "the scene" who relate to everything and everyone in their life as dom or sub. Sometimes i am just a person not a switch...
[20:37] <fae{NR}> Darktears, i'd be more apt to say not many instead of no one, it is possible
[20:37] <ravenshad> I think it depends on the people Darktears and whether or not they live the power exchange or are trying to live something that is truly not who they are..
[20:37] <AlstrBlck> I concurr, dekatia. Sometimes one cannot be "dom" or "sub", but a person.
[20:37] <KimiD> you would have to define Direct for me
[20:38] <Soulhuntr> Darktears, I think the 4 years Kimiko has been doing it counts :)
[20:38] <AlstrBlck> I have seen people forget that so many times, and they lose track of who they really are.
[20:38] <ravenshad> I think AB, that it depends on whether or not the person realizes who and waht they are..
[20:38] <KimiD> i am always a sub, reguardless of the fact that i'm a person
[20:38] <^Guil> ...he has set parameters for your behavior...expectations....within which you are free, subject alwasy to his direct orders...
[20:38] <dekatia> well i think this lifestyle can become to encompassing
[20:38] <ravenshad> if one is truly submissive, or dominant, throughout their entire personality..they can't lose site of who they are..it is who they are
[20:38] <Soulhuntr> All interactions between sentient creatures carry with it the subtext of power. There is always a 'dominat' and 'submissive' party.
[20:38] <AlstrBlck> remember, raven, what almost happened to me....
[20:39] <ravenshad> yes..but that wasn't from D/s AB..that was entirely seperate..
[20:39] <ravenshad> I have to agree with Soulhuntr..
[20:39] <fae{NR}> unlike KimiD, when i'm in my "sub mood", i'm completely different than when i'm at work, or even just a normal night at home, but for everyone it is bound to be different
[20:39] <^Ming> I agree with Soulhuntr
[20:39] <Bugs42`> agreed Soulhuntr, there is the hunter and the hunted as it were in all life
[20:39] <pyrette> I give my power freely...that is my ability to act and my ability to act gives me power
[20:40] <ravenshad> I am a mother..but even them I am a sub (which probably explains how easily the kids can get what they want) I can't step out of being a sub...though sometimes i wish I could.. <g>
[20:40] * fae{NR} can't afford to be the least bit submissive in most aspects of his work, otherise i'd lose my job *
[20:40] <AlstrBlck> yes, raven, but trying to live in the mode I was, the person I became, was a 24/7 job after a while, an illusion I was maintaining, and it almost killed me.
[20:40] <^Guil> I agree with SH....
[20:40] <^Ming> We simply could not function as a society if we did not Domunate... and submit... as appropriate for the situation
[20:40] <ravenshad> yes..but that was an illusion created for reasons other than BDSM..instead of being who you were..
[20:40] <Soulhuntr> Fae - this things are not defined, imho as moods, but as reactions to specific people... there is no one at work who strucks you as a dominant, therefore you do not act submissively.
[20:41] <KimiD> being submissive doesn't meant i can't handle myself in positions of authority
[20:41] <ravenshad> excellently said Kimi!!!
[20:41] <AlstrBlck> That's very true, Ming.
[20:41] <ravenshad> thank you :)
[20:41] <ravenshad> nowhere in power exchange does it say lay down and play stupid or you aren't submissive..
[20:41] <iaspis> I agree with you Kimi!
[20:41] <fae{NR}> actually Soulhuntr, there are a few people who striek me as dominant, but working where i was, i couldn't let them control at all, otherwise i'd be out the door
[20:42] <^Guil> ...but also, SH....the hierarchy at work is *artificial*....power is arranged differently than it might be naturally...it helps if "the boss" is a strong alpha...but strong alphas can occur in relatively "powerless" positions...
[20:42] <fae{NR}> even when i felt it was wrong
[20:42] * ravenshad remains quiet and hopes to finally understand what an alpha is..
[20:42] <ravenshad> ok..can only an alpha be a dominant?
[20:42] * KimiD smiles.
[20:43] <fae{NR}> no, an alpha IMHO is just the most dominant around at the current time and can easily change
[20:43] <^Guil> ...in a pack...the alpha is the lead....usually one male and one female, depending on species....humans are probably pack animals....
[20:43] <Soulhuntr> And those people usually control things far beyond their place in an org chart Guil :)
[20:43] * KimiD grins and waits.
[20:43] <Bugs42`> no, to me alpha simply means primary, my boss is alpha but not dominant
[20:43] <Soulhuntr> Depends... do you mean dominant in the broader sense? Or liek a top?
[20:43] <^Guil> agreed, SH....i was coming to that point with the example of the "Secretary who secretly controls everything"
[20:43] <ravenshad> broader sense..not a top..one who is a "lifestyle" dominant..
[20:44] <Soulhuntr> Then yes, the one who is dominant over another must, to some degree be considered their alpha ... it is almost a definition.
[20:44] <fae{NR}> raven, if you have say a poly relationship with one Dominant and two submissives, one of the submissives can also be dominant over the other
[20:44] <^Guil> ...hmm....I know alpha's in the sense i *think* SH means...I have no idea whether they're involved with BDSM as commonly defined...
[20:44] <ravenshad> I understand that fae..but I never completely understood Soulhuntr's definition..and damn, I'd like to..
[20:45] <^Guil> ..or in my case...I regard myself as dominant...but my wife is a stronger alpha than I am....I knew that when I married her...
[20:45] <ravenshad> ok..that would make sense that one who is a dominant must be alpha to the submissive..
[20:45] <ravenshad> but would they have to be alpha in general? outside of that BDSM relationship?
[20:46] <^Ming> Does a lifestyle Dominant mean the dominance is carried to a sexual relationship... or to all human relationships
[20:46] <ravenshad> OK..I understand that Guil.. :)
[20:46] * ravenshad has been called Alpha to some people..beta to others..rather confusing..
[20:46] <KimiD> in my definition lifesytle dominant means in all areas
[20:46] <Soulhuntr> Raven - depends on who they are interacting with in the wider world. These things are individual... liek the Japanese who decide who to bow to on a case by case basis.
[20:46] <^Guil> ...in a relationship....in play...in "scening"...who's a top and who's a bottom....I think the distinctions we're drawing are much less important...and I think that's what gets the conversation so confused...
[20:47] <ravenshad> Ahhh..ok..I get it..finally!!
[20:47] <Bakburnr> I have always thought that those who seek Dom(me) roles within a social structure are probably Dom(me).. whether they be human or wolf.
[20:47] <ravenshad> Thanks Soulhuntr :)
[20:47] <ravenshad> To you, is being dom or sub just a role?
[20:47] <fae{NR}> Bakburnr, i don't quite agree, in the outside world, i am a Dominant, but to my Mistress, i'm submissive
[20:48] <Soulhuntr> I am alpha to one person, but perhaps my waiter in a restaurant is someone who 'feels' like an alpha to me, but then I am alpha to the president of my company, etc etc.
[20:48] <fae{NR}> I've noticed that in several cases, the role a person plays outside of BDSM can be the exact opposite of that inside the lifestyle
[20:48] <ravenshad> Would whether or not one lets their dominance or submissiveness show depend on the situation?
[20:48] <Tatsumi> not to me Raven
[20:48] <^Ming> I think I amsubmissive at times... I got stopped for speeding.. and became quite submissive
[20:48] <Bakburnr> fae- well with humans, I believe we are more complex, and so take on a variety of roles within our lives.
[20:48] <^Guil> ....fae....do people react *instinctively* to your personality...or do they follow you out of respect for your position, skills, and experience?
[20:49] <ravenshad> I don't know if I'd call that submissive..or merely handling the particular situation correctly Ming..I mean everyone knows that if you mouth off to a cop you're asking for trouble..
[20:49] <fae{NR}> Guil, it's hard to be certain, but I'd say a little bit of both...let me explain some
[20:49] <KimiD> nor I
[20:49] <AlstrBlck> Soulhunter, I have noticed that quite a bit, and I know what it is. When someone thinks you're dumber than them, they treat you as so. if you show them you know what's going on, and you know more, they toll the line.
[20:49] <fae{NR}> i work as a systems engineer/systems administrator, so therefore i'm supposed to know how to fix whatever problem they're having...
[20:50] <fae{NR}> this can put me either in a dom or a sub role, depending on how i handle the situation...
[20:50] * ravenshad listens
[20:50] <^Guil> in that context, how do you define dom and sub?
[20:50] <Bakburnr> I find that some people mistake nice for sub in this world.
[20:51] <^Ming> I agree Bakburnr
[20:51] <fae{NR}> usually i take the dom role, even if i don't know the solution, i behave as if i do or can find out quite easily, and they usually take a submissive role to me both because of my knowledge, and to how i present myself
[20:51] <Bugs42`> raven is afk for a short period
[20:51] <Tatsumi> all life is situational
[20:51] <^Guil> "submissive" meaning?
[20:52] <Bakburnr> When I am nice to people, in general, they assume that means I am there to serve them in some way.
[20:52] <fae{NR}> that they will listen to me, not question what i'm doing and do what i say
[20:52] <^Guil> but is that the power of your *self*...or your knowledge....are they intimidated by the computer, or by you?
[20:52] <fae{NR}> but part of why they listen is also because (as Bakburnr is talking about) i'm also nice and don't try to lord over them my knowledge
[20:53] <^Guil> i.e. the old cliche knowledge = power
[20:53] <Tatsumi> fae - that is more about leadership than dominace
[20:53] <fae{NR}> i can't honestly say because i am not them and am not in their position
[20:53] <Bakburnr> people respond to respect... whether they are Dom(me) or sub or whatever...
[20:53] <Tatsumi> the two are not always related
[20:53] <fae{NR}> Tatsumi, and leadership does not require some dominance?
[20:53] <iaspis> I agree Bakburnr
[20:53] <^Ming> We can really only be totally Dominant or submissive with one we love and trust
[20:53] * ravenshad returns and scrolls back
[20:54] <sulis[TC]> I dont agree ming
[20:54] <Bakburnr> I agree Ming
[20:54] <Bugs42`> ok, I have a question about the power exchange.....when does or should it occur? I have been asked by two subs just today that when looking for a Dom/me they were told no questions... How do they learn if no questions are allowed?
[20:54] <iaspis> I agree with Ming too
[20:54] <fae{NR}> Bugs, i'd have to say that it is a case by case occurance...
[20:54] <Soulhuntr> Umm... sorry to say that I completely disagree Ming :)
[20:54] <Tatsumi> that's not at all true Ming
[20:55] <fae{NR}> with myself and my Mistress, many things can put PE on the back burner and we take opposite roles from lifestyle for various situations
[20:55] <ravenshad> I don't agree Ming..I'm sorry..
[20:55] <KimiD> i don't agree Ming
[20:55] <^Guil> if ^Ming means "express Dominance or submission" I agree....but there are people in this world with whom I'd describe my relationship only in power terms...
[20:55] <Bakburnr> Bugs, I would say that negotiation needs to occur before the scene begins... which, I would think, includes questions, etc.
[20:55] <ravenshad> I can be submissive with someone I do not love..Love is not neccessary to a power exchange..but it does make it nicer for some people.. :)
[20:56] <ravenshad> Negotiation and all that (which includes asking questions) must occur before a relationship becomes a comitted one..
[20:56] <^Ming> I just know I would not want power from one who does not trust me
[20:56] <^Guil> ....but, raven, to allow yourself to completely let go, completely submit....don't the love and trust need to be there?
[20:56] <ravenshad> anyone, in my opinion, that tells someone who is new to the lifestyle don't ask me questions..then there's a problem there..
[20:56] <ravenshad> no Guil they do not..
[20:56] <fae{NR}> i have been submissive, and even Dominant, in lifestyle with people i didn't love or trust w/ my life (level of trust is important factor to think on)
[20:56] * ravenshad learned that the hard way..
[20:56] <Tatsumi> yes raven
[20:56] <ravenshad> 6 months ago Guil, I would have said that for me..yes it would need to be there..but I learned otherwise..
[20:56] <fae{NR}> Guil, trust, yes...love no
[20:56] <ravenshad> exactly fae..
[20:57] <Bugs42`> I believe that trust is more important than love and trust means asking lots of questions
[20:57] <^Guil> isn't that circular logic, ^Ming....if they submit you they are trusting you...
[20:57] <ravenshad> for me, it's trust..if the trust is there and at least some amount of genuine caring, then yes I can completely let go..
[20:57] <^Guil> ah. fair enough fae.
[20:57] <^Guil> okay, raven, now I understand
[20:57] <sulis[TC]> I think that there are people out there that i feel could elicte a submissive response from me at any given time
[20:57] <ravenshad> not always Guil..many will submit without really having trust beacuse they think they *have* to obey every one who calls themselves dominant..
[20:57] <Tatsumi> Guil, it dcepends on the level of play involved
[20:57] <Bakburnr> Guil, good point.. submit = trust
[20:57] <sulis[TC]> that i dont love or trust for that matter
[20:57] <^Ming> Yes Guil... one can submit without trusting... but the outcome is often unpleasant
[20:57] <ravenshad> I have to agree with that sulis..and I've had it happen..
[20:58] <Soulhuntr> Raven - I hear that a lot, yet I never met anyone who actually believed it.
[20:58] <ravenshad> believed what?
[20:58] <ravenshad> things are scrolling quickly Soulhuntr..would you please clarify which statement you are responding to?
[20:59] <^Guil> all right...I have to accept the words of those who have been there...but I don't understand it....I don't want to really dominate someone who hasn't had time to learn to trust me...because that is an implicit limit on my dominance...
[20:59] <fae{NR}> Soulhuntr, i have (if you're talking about submiting w/o trusting because they feel they ahve to)
[20:59] <Bakburnr> I can understand someone submit without love, but how can one submit without trust?
[20:59] <ravenshad> fear Bakburnr..low self esteem..it's what they learned..
[20:59] <sulis[TC]> Talent wants me to say that he feels that although you can cause someon to submit to you out of fear or awe there will always be a part of them that is not truely yours because it was forced a part that is still fighting the domination
[20:59] <Soulhuntr> I put it in the "BDSM urban legend" section :)
[20:59] <KimiD> no. i trust my sensie..i certainly don't love him..i mean he's a nice guy and all..but :)
[20:59] <Tatsumi> submit ‚ trust ‚ love
[20:59] <Soulhuntr> That they must obey the orders of anyoen who claims to be a domiannt.
[20:59] <ravenshad> Ahhh Soulhuntr..I have seen it..
[20:59] <Tatsumi> they do NOT have to be dependant on each other
[20:59] <fae{NR}> in the case of one of my friends, she submitted out of fear, not trust
[20:59] <ravenshad> I know 2 subs who (in real life btw) that did it..and with devesstating results..
[21:00] <ravenshad> I will say it isn't a very common thing..but it does happen
[21:00] <^Guil> ..but I also believe trust is experienced as a learning curve....you learn to trust as you learn the one you trust is trustworthy...
[21:00] <Soulhuntr> ::shrugs:: Personally, I never have.
[21:00] <ravenshad> that I can agree with Guil..
[21:00] <Bakburnr> raven... that is sad. not a scene I would want to be a part of.
[21:00] <ravenshad> You started outside cyber Soulhuntr?
[21:00] * _mizu_ quietly takes out my tools and start's working
[21:00] <ravenshad> least I think you did..(If I recall correctly)
[21:00] <fae{NR}> unfortunately there are those out there who care only for their own jollys and not how they treat others
[21:01] <ravenshad> me either Bakburnr..
[21:01] <AlstrBlck> and those people always seem to wind up on the talk shows, fae.... "My husband treats me like a slave"
[21:01] <Soulhuntr> ::shrugs:: depends on your point of view. I went online when I was 13. I had dominant feelings before then... but I was sure online before I went R/L
[21:01] <ravenshad> I had someone call me the other day, who only learned what little she knew of BDSM from online..first question she asked me was does she need to obey every person that says they are dominant...
[21:01] <fae{NR}> okay, here's another question...how do you gain the trust of a person in a situation without putting yourself in a situation where you have to trust them
[21:01] <fae{NR}> ?
[21:01] <ravenshad> OK..thanks for clarifying my recollection.. :)
[21:02] <Tatsumi> fae - there are people like that in every area of life. aviod them
[21:02] <AlstrBlck> Those are the kind of people that do give D/S a bad name.
[21:02] <ravenshad> I can't speak for what online was 13 years ago..I never really bothered.. :)
[21:02] <^Guil> you can't, fae. trust is mutual...and grows incrementally...
[21:02] <Soulhuntr> This means, BTW that I have been online continuously as a social thing for more than 19 years :)
[21:02] <ravenshad> I would say get to know them fae..
[21:02] <Bakburnr> fae... answer, very slowly
[21:02] <fae{NR}> okay, so if you can trust them oustide a scene, you can trust them in one?
[21:03] * ravenshad was on a BBS when she was 19..but only for a few months..and never in an adult context..heck, didn't even know the term BDSM then.. LOL
[21:03] <ravenshad> trust your instincts fae..
[21:03] <^Guil> fae, the negation of that is certainly true...IF you can't trust them outside a scene, you can't trust them in one....
[21:03] * fae{NR} forgets when he found out what he was into was BDSM *
[21:03] <fae{NR}> then how do you know you can trust someone to say...tie you up?
[21:04] <ravenshad> heck, I played before I even knew what it was..
[21:04] <Bakburnr> fae... good question. I would assume so. Trust is universal.
[21:04] <ravenshad> unfortunately fae, I don't think it is something anyone can every really know for a solid fact..
[21:04] <^Guil> your own instincts, sense and judgment, fae...none of which can ever be surrendered
[21:04] <ravenshad> but..again, one's instincts are probably the best judge..
[21:04] <iaspis> you better know you can trust them or don't get involved
[21:04] <fae{NR}> Bakburnr (was playing a bit of devils advocate w/ question), i don't agree with that because some people may be manipulating you and you don't realize it until something happens, maybe in scene
[21:05] <ravenshad> but is manipulating someone a power exchange?
[21:05] <fae{NR}> iaspis, when i first met my current Mistress, i didn't know i could trust her, but she gave me no reason not to, so i went a little further with my trusting and she earned a little more each time, and now i trust her with my life
[21:06] <Bakburnr> fae... start with scenes that don't require being tied up.. and as someone else said.. trust your instincts.
[21:06] <fae{NR}> but when i first met her, i didn't know i could trust her at all
[21:06] <_mizu_> no, it happens all the time
[21:06] <iaspis> I agree with that, start out small
[21:06] <iaspis> build the trust
[21:06] <ravenshad> start out small works well.. :)
[21:06] <iaspis> if you can't, then don't go there
[21:06] <ravenshad> I agree one shouldn't jump in both feet first unless they know what they are getting in to..
[21:06] <pyrette> you ask a lot of questions...
[21:06] <fae{NR}> iaspis, i also didn't know that i couldn't trust her
[21:07] <^Guil> ...but how many of us do, anyway, raven?
[21:07] <ravenshad> Alot of us Guil!!.. LOL
[21:07] <ravenshad> it's like the "safe call" thing and don't play on a first meeting..
[21:07] <fae{NR}> (which i am afraid i'm guilty of)
[21:07] * ravenshad broke that rule a long time
[21:07] <ravenshad> ago
[21:07] <Bugs42`> I say if the person, Dom or sub does not answer questions, find someone else
[21:07] <pyrette> agree Raven
[21:07] <Bakburnr> fae... hmmm, then how would you ever know?
[21:07] <ravenshad> I agree with that Bugs..
[21:08] <Soulhuntr> If my instincts say I can jump, I do.
[21:08] <ravenshad> how does power exchange differ for those who consider BDSM a lifestyle vs those who just play once in a while..?
[21:08] <fae{NR}> sorry, was a little unclear, didn't know i could trust or not trust her, so gave her a little bit of trust, and she earned it, then a little more...etc. until now i trust her with my life
[21:08] <ravenshad> that is how it works, least from what I understand fae..
[21:09] <fae{NR}> but it started out with me not knowing if i could trust her or not...i didn't know her until we started going out (well, met her the day before)
[21:09] <iaspis> I also applaud these discussions for bringing heightened awareness for those of us (me) that are really new to D/s
[21:09] <^Guil> how does one separate the honest urgings of your instincts from self-serving rationalizations?
[21:09] <pyrette> if the dom or sub can't answer them something may be up too
[21:09] <Bakburnr> raven... I think PE is different for everyone who plays, lifestyler or not.
[21:09] <ravenshad> agreed pyrette.. :)
[21:09] <Soulhuntr> Guil - experience
[21:09] <ravenshad> Oh gosh Guil..you've asked a question I can't answer..<giggle>
[21:10] <ravenshad> please explain a bit more?
[21:10] <ravenshad> would that be how does one differentiate between needs and wants? or what is instinctual vs what one *thinks* they want?
[21:11] <^Guil> I agree SH...but I wanted to point out that since wiitwd is frowned upon by society at large, it's often difficult for those newly come to our lifestyle to honestly understand what they want and need...
[21:11] <fae{NR}> Guil, as for seperating honest urgings from self serving rationalizations, one first has to accept fully who and what they are, then examine what drives each
[21:11] <Tatsumi> it think that's way too personal to give an answre about
[21:11] <ravenshad> Ahh..ok got it..
[21:11] <Soulhuntr> I disagree Guil.. I think they know exactly what they need... I think they don;t know how to go about getting it :)
[21:12] <Tatsumi> i agree Soul'
[21:12] <ravenshad> One has to analyze themselves..know what is in themselves..doing so is often painful, and not everyone wants to do it to the extent that they must to decide if BdSM is instinctual for them or not
[21:12] <fae{NR}> actually Soulhuntr, i disagree with you, some people don't genuinely know what they want, so have to figure out a way of getting an idea first
[21:12] <iaspis> that is well said Soulhuntr
[21:12] <^Ming> I agree Tat... Everyone has different limits whether part-time or Lifestyler
[21:12] <Bugs42`> Agree with that one Soulhuntr
[21:12] <ravenshad> well said Soulhuntr..there is that too..
[21:12] <ravenshad> does it help others to hear about the different variances in the lifestyle instead of presenting it as only doable one way?
[21:13] <iaspis> doesn't work for everyone the same way
[21:13] <Bugs42`> I think if they are here they have an idea of what they want
[21:13] <Bugs42`> a concept anyway
[21:13] <iaspis> absolutely raven
[21:13] <fae{NR}> very much so raven, letting people know that there is no OneTruePath is very importatn
[21:13] <Tatsumi> i agree
[21:13] <^Ming> I think fae's example of giving power a bit at a time... until one finds there comfort zone
[21:14] <Bugs42`> Gosh, you mean no set rules, nothing carved in stone?
[21:14] <ravenshad> LOLOL
[21:14] <ravenshad> yes
[21:14] <fae{NR}> a concept Bugs, yes!
[21:14] * _mizu_ giggles
[21:14] <Tatsumi> lol - yes Bugs
[21:14] <Bakburnr> LOL
[21:14] <ravenshad> there isn't anything carved in stone when it comes to BDSM..
[21:14] <sulis[TC]> But soul, one may know what they need when they come in i have always known (since i was very young) that i needed something i was not getting but it wasnt until i started exploreing and talking and expeiercing that i really understood what that "thing" that i felt was missing in my life was
[21:14] * ravenshad really ticked some people off when she said that the other day.. LOLOLOL
[21:15] <fae{NR}> sure there is raven, it's the following rule: "No Rules are carved in stone" *gryn*
[21:15] <_mizu_> never been normal, was trained diffrent from all that i have met
[21:15] <ravenshad> LOL fae!! ^5
[21:15] <Bugs42`> we find the partner(s) that suits our wants and needs and go from there.
[21:15] <ravenshad> (^5 means high five for those who don't know)
[21:15] <ravenshad> what the hell is normal anyway???
[21:15] <_mizu_> dose put me a bit outside most of the time
[21:15] <ravenshad> you're welcome Tatsumi :)
[21:15] <iaspis> Yea!!...Bugs42
[21:15] <ravenshad> That was a rhetorical question!
[21:15] <fae{NR}> (of course, that statement is in and of itself a paradox, but that's another discussion)
[21:16] <Tatsumi> lol
[21:16] <AlstrBlck> normal is what makes you content.
[21:16] <ravenshad> I know for me what I wanted..but damn if I could put words to it until 2 years ago..
[21:16] <ravenshad> Good one AB!! I like that :)
[21:16] <Tatsumi> good answer Alstr
[21:16] <_mizu_> and drive other nut's that don't understand
[21:16] <Soulhuntr> sulis - sometimes that is true ... but about all things, not just this lifestyle.
[21:16] <ravenshad> yes mizu!
[21:16] * fae{NR} ^5's Alstr *
[21:16] <Tatsumi> not stickly true, but it shluld be:)
[21:16] <Soulhuntr> normal is what 51% of the people do :)
[21:16] <ravenshad> What, to you, is a healthy power exchange? and what is not?
[21:16] * _mizu_ giggles
[21:17] <Tatsumi> healthy?
[21:17] <AlstrBlck> Some people are content driving a big fancy car around, windows up, air conditioner on, whilst others are content to ride the city bus, meeting people along the way.
[21:17] <Tatsumi> define healthy fisrt:)
[21:17] <iaspis> goes back to what AB said
[21:17] <ravenshad> **Disclaimer*** please remember that your nicks will be used on the web site unless you request otherwise, when the logs are posted
[21:17] <ravenshad> healthy meaning, something that does not destroy the people involved's self esteem..
[21:17] <ravenshad> or their personalities..
[21:18] <ravenshad> true AB
[21:18] <Bakburnr> I think you just answered your own question, raven
[21:18] <ravenshad> I know I did..was looking for other's opinion Bakburnr :)
[21:18] <Soulhuntr> I am waiting for someone to tell me what 'self esteem' is, and why it is so important.
[21:18] <pyrette> to freely give my submission is healty
[21:19] <ravenshad> self esteem, to me Soulhuntr, is being able to believe you are a decent person..
[21:19] <Soulhuntr> It usually seems to be kissing your own ass :)
[21:19] <ravenshad> trust me..you have it :)
[21:19] <ravenshad> naww..kissing one's own ass is nothing more than an ego trip
[21:19] <ravenshad> and usually hides a lack of self esteem
[21:19] <Tatsumi> Daddy's joking a bit:)
[21:19] * ravenshad giggles
[21:19] <Tatsumi> lol
[21:19] <ravenshad> oops..sorry Tatsumi..thanks for telling me :)
[21:19] <fae{NR}> are self esteem and self respect the same/similar at all?
[21:19] <iaspis> i disagree Raven, because I feel I am a decent person, yet my self-esteem is lacking
[21:19] <ravenshad> to me they are fae..
[21:19] <AlstrBlck> self esteem, SoulHunter, is being able to keep your head up high and keep trying, regardless of how many times you get shot down.
[21:20] <Tatsumi> np:)
[21:20] <Soulhuntr> "I am healthy, happy, and in demand"
[21:20] <ravenshad> everyone goes through periods of time where they doubt themsevles..that is not neccessary a self esteem problem..
[21:20] <pyrette> being proud of who and what you are
[21:20] <Bakburnr> I think they are, fae
[21:20] <Soulhuntr> ravenshad - but there are some truly bad people in the world, it is not a bad thing for them to admit this :)
[21:21] <ravenshad> isn't bad up to one's perceptions of what is right or wrong?
[21:21] <Soulhuntr> "I am popular, I am good, and darn it, people like me"
[21:21] <sulis[TC]> Gee Soul doesnt have an ego does he?
[21:21] <ravenshad> ok..we're off topic.. LOLOL
[21:21] * ravenshad thinks of Saturday Night Live and ROFL
[21:21] * _mizu_ giggles
[21:22] <Soulhuntr> I am being kind of funny, but serious as well... if an honest self evaluation tells you you should be ashamed of yourself, then it is not a problem to not be proud.
[21:22] <ravenshad> Can a power exchange exist out of fear on the submissive's part?
[21:22] <Soulhuntr> It seems that self esteem is unconditional self love... and I don;t think THAT is healthy.
[21:22] <ravenshad> I have to agree with that Soulhuntr..
[21:22] <Bugs42`> yes, it can, but that is not really consentual
[21:22] <Soulhuntr> "I believe in the power of me"
[21:22] <fae{NR}> very much so, i'd tend to say that most abusive relationships are a power exchange out of fear
[21:22] <ravenshad> it isn't..but I don't define self esteem that way..I include the ability to see one's "bad" points and strive to make them better..
[21:23] <Bakburnr> Soul, perhaps it should be called Self Estimation and not Self Esteem.
[21:23] * ravenshad thinks self esteem should be an entirely seperate topic
[21:23] <ravenshad> that would work Bakburnr.. :)
[21:23] <Tatsumi> i agree Raven:)
[21:23] <ravenshad> would such a power exchange then be considered part of BDSM?
[21:23] <fae{NR}> the person fears what happens in the relationship, but fears more taking away the power that was exchanged, afraid of the consequences of having their own power back and not in control of another
[21:23] <Soulhuntr> Technically? sure. Power is taken by many means... fear is one of them. I don't think we approve, but it is possible.
[21:23] <Soulhuntr> It depends on how you define BDSM raven :)
[21:23] <Bugs42`> it could be, yes, but as in all types of relatiosnhips there is abuse
[21:24] <ravenshad> I have to agree that it is possible..very much so..
[21:24] <Tatsumi> yup
[21:24] <ravenshad> explain please Soulhuntr?
[21:26] <iaspis> someone asked, if someones fears what will happen to the relationship and gives over power, is that a true exchange?
[21:27] <ravenshad> yes I did iaspis..
[21:27] <ravenshad> Depends on how you define power exchange..
[21:27] <ravenshad> as the words themselves..yes it is an exchange of power
[21:27] <Bakburnr> its an exchange, but now we're back to a question of what's healthy
[21:27] <ravenshad> is it a BDSM power exchange, by my definition, no it isn't
[21:27] <iaspis> I don't happen to believe that is a true exchange
[21:27] <ravenshad> same answer Bakburnr
[21:27] <Bugs42`> it depends on the depth of the fear and no, I don't see that as true exchange, again, it isn't really consentual
[21:27] <Talent> :)
[21:28] <ravenshad> it lacks one thing..
[21:28] <ravenshad> the informed choice to consent
[21:28] <ravenshad> that is what seperates abuse from BdSM in my opinion
[21:28] <sulis[TC]> But isnt any human interaction a exchange of power of some kind
[21:28] <Bakburnr> the power has been exchanged.... not consentually, not in a healthy way.
[21:28] <_mizu_> mostly
[21:28] <Bugs42`> yes, sulis it is
[21:29] <iaspis> but they are consenting, only out of fear
[21:29] <ravenshad> just for information purposes to those who are new (and will be reading the web sitea) could everyone please post their amount of experience in BDSM?
[21:29] <Bakburnr> I'm saying that abuse has at its core a power exchange... but does not make it BDSM
[21:29] <sulis[TC]> I think that all the terms and labels is about the only thing that bothers me about talking about this lifestyle
[21:29] <Bakburnr> sulis, that I think is true... all human interaction has some level of power exchange.. probably more like juggling.
[21:29] <_mizu_> damm, now i need to think
[21:29] * Bugs42` about 15 years r/l
[21:30] * fae{NR} thinks: Online about 4 years, r/l about 7 years, living w/ Domme, about 1 1/2 years *
[21:30] <Bakburnr> for me about 1 year.
[21:30] <sulis[TC]> that is hard to say
[21:30] <sulis[TC]> D/s is who we are
[21:30] <^Ming> zero for me
[21:30] <ravenshad> with physical play to varying intensity 14 years or so..
[21:31] <Bakburnr> oh, for me R/L 1 year... online 0.
[21:31] <iaspis> for me about 3 months R/T, years without knowing
[21:31] <ravenshad> mental aspects with the actual terminology..2 years..
[21:31] <ravenshad> give or take a few months
[21:31] * AlstrBlck : 15 years r/l, 5 online.
[21:31] <_mizu_> about 14 years i think
[21:31] <pyrette> none for me raven :-(
[21:31] <fae{NR}> oh, with actual terminology, about 4 years r/l (dabbled & played before, but didn't know anything "official"
[21:31] <_mizu_> samll gap for a bit
[21:32] <ravenshad> ok..just makes it a bit easier for those reading the logs to understand where everyone is coming from..thanks all :)
[21:32] <sulis[TC]> Was i not Submissive when i was a child, because i didnt know what D/s ment, i dont think so i can never remember a time that i was not submissive
[21:32] <ravenshad> understood sulis.. :)
[21:32] <sulis[TC]> Talent feels the same way
[21:33] <sulis[TC]> He to this day does not really consider himself a Dom he is just a Dominant person who is in control of his home if that makes him a dom then that makes him a dom
[21:33] * fae{NR} yawns, looks at the bed, and at the UNIX manual *
[21:33] <ravenshad> interesting view sulis.. :)
[21:34] <ravenshad> I've heard some people say similar things.. :)
[21:34] <Bakburnr> sulis, interesting, but I'm not sure I understand what Talent means.
[21:35] <Tatsumi> i have 8 years R/T and almost 1 year 24/7
[21:35] <ravenshad> I've heard a term come up, which is EPE (erotic power exchange), what is your view of that term?
[21:35] <ravenshad> do those who only do power exchange in an erotic situation fit in BDSM?
[21:36] <Tatsumi> sure they fit
[21:36] <_mizu_> no, there are difrent types
[21:36] <Bakburnr> rave... IMO of course
[21:36] <Tatsumi> as long as everyone involved is having fun <in one way or another> and some power is exchanged, then it is BDSM to me
[21:36] <ravenshad> I agree there Tat.. :)
[21:36] <Bakburnr> I agree with Tats
[21:37] <Tatsumi> :)
[21:37] <ravenshad> no mizu?
[21:37] <_mizu_> do not see vampireiszm as BDSM (giggle)
[21:38] * ravenshad laughs
[21:38] * ravenshad won't get into blood sports..
[21:38] <ravenshad> yet anyway
[21:38] <Tatsumi> it could be mizu:) heheheh
[21:38] <_mizu_> see
[21:38] <Tatsumi> mmm, blood sports:)
[21:38] <Tatsumi> <wink>
[21:38] <ravenshad> OK..when, in your opinion, does a power exchange go too far?
[21:38] <ravenshad> (thinking of what people call micro-managing here)
[21:39] <sulis[TC]> Talent says:He says that he has always been Dominant personality wise and he has a problem with being asked how long he has been involved with BDSM because being Dominant, and slightly sadistic is who he is and not something he does for a hobby
[21:39] <ravenshad> I understand sulis..not a problem.. :)
[21:39] <_mizu_> when the pain is no longer fun
[21:39] <sulis[TC]> raven i think that is a personal thing
[21:39] <Tatsumi> ok sulis, how long have you been practicing BDSM in physical terms?
[21:39] <Bakburnr> when the sub uses his/her safe word...
[21:39] <Bakburnr> any further than that is too far.
[21:40] <Bakburnr> sulis, I understand... thanks
[21:40] <ravenshad> does a safeword give power to a sub?
[21:40] <Bugs42`> when it exceeds the boundaries of the relationship
[21:40] <Tatsumi> ah, but saome of us don't have safe words <staring a hellova topic>
[21:40] <ravenshad> I think there is some lag here sulis..
[21:40] <ravenshad> (gonna cover that next week Tatsumi..<grin>)
[21:41] <Tatsumi> cool raven:)
[21:41] * ravenshad pings sulis..with no response yet..
[21:41] <Bakburnr> raven... the safe word is the power of the sub.
[21:41] <ravenshad> no problem Tatsumi :)
[21:41] * _mizu_ giggles
[21:41] <ravenshad> but what if the sub doesn't want that power?
[21:41] <Bakburnr> Tats... no safe words? this is new to me.
[21:41] <ravenshad> does that put the relationship outside of BDSM terms and into the realm of abuse?
[21:41] <KimiD> i dont have one either
[21:41] * ravenshad tries to keep safewords on topic with power exchange only..
[21:42] <Tatsumi> when a dom and a sub are involved in a trusting D/S relationship, they sometimes eliminate the use of safewords
[21:42] <KimiD> i can give condition reports but i can not just STOP the scene
[21:42] <KimiD> what raven?
[21:42] <ravenshad> I only have one beacuse of my back making it neccessary to have one..I prefer not to have one..
[21:42] <ravenshad> true Tat.. :)
[21:42] <Bakburnr> raven, then that's a lot of responsibility for the Top;
[21:42] <KimiD> np raven :)
[21:42] <KimiD> it damn well should be his responsibility
[21:42] <_mizu_> no raven, if the sub and Dom know each other well, then one would not be needed
[21:42] <Tatsumi> yes it is Bak
[21:42] <ravenshad> yes it is Backburnr..but isn't that responsibility part of being dominant?
[21:42] <pyrette> if you dont have one does that mean you have trust that your Dom knows your limits
[21:43] <Tatsumi> might not be needed Mixu
[21:43] <ravenshad> lets face it..you put a sub in tight bondage..who is responsible for his/her safety?
[21:43] <ravenshad> I would say yes pyrette..
[21:43] <Tatsumi> depends on personal comfort levels
[21:43] <Tatsumi> yes Pyr
[21:43] <ravenshad> but then again, not everyone allows limits either.. :)
[21:43] <Bugs42`> yes pyrette, it means a lot of trust
[21:43] <Bakburnr> my sub hasn't used her safeword in a while. I assumed it was because I was becoming a bit more astute. But I had not considered eliminating it.
[21:43] <_mizu_> yes pyrette
[21:43] <Tatsumi> true raven:)
[21:43] <pyrette> and Tatsumi
[21:43] <ravenshad> safewords will usually disssappear on their own in a long term relationship :)
[21:44] <Bakburnr> raven, yes, but responsible to be a mindreader... I'm not sure that would be ok with me.
[21:44] <KimiD> um..raven can i reply to bak on that?
[21:44] <ravenshad> yes Kimi you can.. :)
[21:44] <Talent> thnx raven
[21:44] <Tatsumi> i wpouldn't eliminate it until you both are comfortable with the fact that it is no longer needed Bak
[21:44] <Tatsumi> :)
[21:44] <ravenshad> mindreader? no..I wouldn't say anyone expects a dom to be a mindreader..but yes, a dom should have at least a basic knowledge of the general physical responses in a human being to certain stimuli..
[21:44] <ravenshad> and know their partner's respones even better
[21:44] <ravenshad> well said Tat.. :)
[21:45] <Bakburnr> Tats, well it isn't something I had considered until this moment.
[21:45] <Bugs42`> when you reach the point of no safeword, is that total power exchange?
[21:45] <sulis[TC]> Tat that is a tough one too bacuase for as long as i have been sexual even with myself i have done things like tie my feet together or pinch or torture my nipples stuff like that
[21:45] <Tatsumi> i would wait. one possible reason some subs don't use safewords <even if they have them> is b/c they don't want to "fail" in the eyes of thier Dom
[21:46] <ravenshad> I would say that would be part of it yes..but what total power exchange involves does depend on each individual relationship
[21:46] <Tatsumi> thanks raven:)
[21:46] <Bakburnr> I had assumed that it was the only safe way to go about BDSM... guess that goes back to nothing written in stone
[21:46] <ravenshad> yw Tat.. :)
[21:46] <Tatsumi> nice tie back to the original topic Bugs:)
[21:46] <ravenshad> From what I understand, SSC is relatively new.. :)
[21:46] <Tatsumi> yep bak - nothing is absolute in this kinky world:)
[21:47] <ravenshad> exactly Bak :)
[21:47] <ravenshad> Does SSC impede a power exchange in your opinion?
[21:47] <Tatsumi> Sulis, i'm not sure what you're referring to. sorry - too many things goin by too fast:)
[21:47] <Bakburnr> SSC? I missed what that means, sorry
[21:47] <ravenshad> Safe Sane Consensual..SSC
[21:48] <ravenshad> she's referring to being asked her phsyical experience, I believe it was, Tat..
[21:48] <_mizu_> nope, keep's it in check
[21:48] <Tatsumi> Safe Sane Consentual
[21:48] <Tatsumi> it's the BDSM buzz words
[21:48] <Tatsumi> oh! ok:)
[21:48] <ravenshad> length of time with physical experience I think..sorry
[21:48] <Bakburnr> rave.. oh, thanks
[21:48] <sulis[TC]> when you asked me how long i have been practicing bdsm in physical terms
[21:48] <Tatsumi> sulis, how long has Talent been tying you up and hitting you?
[21:48] <ravenshad> Is a power exchange mental in nature? or does it require the physical B/d and S/m??
[21:49] <Tatsumi> thanks Raven:)
[21:49] <ravenshad> excellent..10 second ping sulis.. :)
[21:49] <_mizu_> it can be all three
[21:49] <sulis[TC]> tieing me up for as long as we have been togther
[21:49] <ravenshad> yes it can be mizu..but does it require all 3 to be an exchange?
[21:49] <Talent> hitting- no spanking- yes :)
[21:49] <Bugs42`> in some ways, yes I belive SSc does impede the power exchange... they are different for everyone and you have to reach an agreement on them before the power exchange begins
[21:49] <Tatsumi> it's mostly mental <hence cyber> but the physical is neccessary for me to do it too
[21:49] <ravenshad> I agree with you Bugs.. :)
[21:49] <sulis[TC]> hehehe if he hit me i would be out cold
[21:50] <KimiD> that depends raven...my service to Soulhuntre is PE related and that has nothing to do with physical OR sexual
[21:50] <_mizu_> no just one, or all
[21:50] <Tatsumi> lol
[21:50] <Tatsumi> you know what i mean!
[21:50] <KimiD> though i like both of the others :)
[21:50] <ravenshad> for me, the power exchange (or D/s) is mental and emotional..but damn the physical stuff is nice too :)
[21:50] * _mizu_ giggles
[21:50] * ravenshad grins..
[21:51] <ravenshad> Well all, we've been going for almost 2 hours...anyone have any last questions before I wrap it up for the night?
[21:51] <sulis[TC]> I have to agree with kimi
[21:52] <ravenshad> OK ..I have one last one..Kimi, you state it has nothing to dow ith phyiscal or sexual for you, what does it have to do with?
[21:53] <ravenshad> anyone have problems with me leaving nicks in the logs??
[21:54] <Tatsumi> feel free to use mine raven and if anyone's interested we just put up the Training VS Romance articles on The Estate site
[21:54] <ravenshad> yes I read them..
[21:54] <ravenshad> very interesting..enjoyed them.. :)
[21:54] <Tatsumi> the Protocol what and why articles will be up in a few days
[21:54] <Tatsumi> thanks raven:)
[21:54] <KimiD> i enjoy serving him in the terms of helping him run his life, being a useful and valuable resource.
[21:54] <KimiD> does that make sense?
[21:54] <AlstrBlck> Nope, feel free to use mine, rave.
[21:54] <ravenshad> ok then..the logs of last week's and this week's discussion will be up tonight before I go to bed.. ;)
[21:54] <sulis[TC]> cant wait
[21:54] <ravenshad> Ohhh..now that I want to read Tat.. ;)
[21:54] <ravenshad> yes that makes ALOT of sense Kimi!! Thank you.. :)
[21:55] <Bugs42`> it does indeed KimiD
[21:55] <sulis[TC]> makes a lot of sense to me kimi
[21:55] <sulis[TC]> I feel the same way about Talent
[21:55] <ravenshad> Thank you all, this went very very well..I appreciate everyone's participation and input.. :)
ENDDiscussion Text
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