Presents:
BDSM Discussion 21
Tolerance
And Acceptance In BDSM
All Comments Posted Here With Permission Of The Participants
Session
Start: Sun Jun 27 19:14:28 1999
[19:14] *** Now talking in #Leather_and_Roses
[19:29] * ravenshad says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions on BDSM the following rules apply..
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[19:30] <ravenshad> Tonight's topic is Tolerance and Acceptance in the lifestyle...
[19:30] <ravenshad> lets start with..what is tolerance?
[19:30] <SithRose> Knowing that your way isn't the only way.
[19:30] <LadyMist> accepting one's right to live their life without hinderance...
[19:31] <ravenshad> Does it affect how we view others?
[19:31] <SithRose> Mmmm, it shouldn't but it probably does.
[19:32] <LadyMist> viewing others is judgement...and I think that is different from tolerating them..
[19:32] <ravenshad> isn't tolerance the ability to accept others who are different from us?
[19:32] <ravenshad> everyone has a "view" on other people LadyMist..don't they?
[19:33] <LadyMist> we don't have to like or accpet what they do to accept their right to do it...
[19:33] <ravenshad> I agree...
[19:33] <LadyMist> that is an opinion...a judgement...
[19:33] <LadyMist> not tolerance...( in my book)
[19:33] <ravenshad> does that mean we can't state that we might not agree with something someone else says or does?
[19:33] * SithRose nods at LM
[19:34] <SithRose> We can state that we don't agree, buyt we don't have the right to try and change what they do.
[19:34] <chens{LM}> we can state our opinion ... but not to enforce it
[19:34] <ravenshad> Why do you think that some find it neccessary t try and change how others' do things?
[19:34] <LadyMist> they think that thier way is "right"
[19:34] * Amax nods to all...
[19:34] <SithRose> Because they're scared of something that's differen
[19:34] * Amax quitely goes to his chair and relaxes
[19:34] <ravenshad> Don't we all think our way is right?
[19:34] <tmouse{K}> or better.
[19:35] <ravenshad> good point SR :)
[19:35] <LadyMist> I don't...'S"
[19:35] <SithRose> For ourselves, yes, for others, no
[19:35] <LadyMist> I only have my small corner of the world and it only owrks for me...and sometimes not even that....
[19:35] * ravenshad nods...
[19:36] <ravenshad> Is part of the reason many of us are attracted to/involved in BDSM is the variety the lifestyle provides us?
[19:36] <SithRose> Yes, I would say so
[19:36] <tmouse{K}> for me it is.
[19:36] <tmouse{K}> that and some or most need that dominant partner.
[19:36] * LadyMist thinks
[19:36] <tmouse{K}> or submissive partner.
[19:37] <ravenshad> Then shouldn't we tolerate others who do things in their BDSM relationships differently than we would chose for ourselves?
[19:37] <tmouse{K}> yes, we should,
[19:37] <SithRose> Yes, we should. But is should what we do?
[19:37] <tmouse{K}> as the saying goes, "to each His/her own".
[19:37] <ravenshad> not always SithRose...though, I personally feel we should all try to be more tolerant of others...though, that is quite difficult to do..
[19:38] * SithRose tries very hard too....
[19:38] <ravenshad> When someone says they are tolerant of others, they can be met with extreme examples to get them to say they would not allow such to take place in front of them..such as child abuse or murder...why do you think that is?
[19:39] <LadyMist> I think those who are really uncomfortable rely on the immoral to justify their beliefs..
[19:39] <Amax> But when does tolerance become apathy...
[19:39] <tmouse{K}> they are crimes against humanity.
[19:39] * SithRose nods at LM
[19:39] <tmouse{K}> inocent people get hurt......
[19:39] <SithRose> Because they're trying too hard to be tolerant?
[19:39] <LadyMist> tolerance never becomes apathy...
[19:39] <ravenshad> good point Amax...when does it?
[19:39] <SithRose> Why do you say that, LM?
[19:39] <LadyMist> when people know moral from tolerant
[19:39] <ravenshad> then how can one justify taking a stand on something...and saying they are tolerant?
[19:40] <ravenshad> ahhh..good point LM :)
[19:41] <chens{LM}> i think people come up with the extremes bc they want some kind of limits.. boundaries... to find out where the toleance ends...
[19:42] <LadyMist> I agree... and some can't stand the thought of someone accepting...
[19:43] <ravenshad> Now that is an interesting point..presenting extremes to find that there is indeed a limit to tolerance..
[19:43] <ravenshad> this could very well be...I know that it must be very uncomfortable to think that "everything" must be tolerated and accepted...no matter what it is..
[19:44] <tmouse{K}> yea, it is.....
[19:44] * SithRose nods at raven
[19:44] <SithRose> Most things, yes, but not everything
[19:44] <LadyMist> some things go outside the realm of acceptable...and into the immoral...for example...child molestation...
[19:44] <ravenshad> I agree LM..
[19:45] <chens{LM}> i think people are more comfortable believing that others believe what they believe... even if they have to go to extremes to find it... like child molestation
[19:45] <LadyMist> you might LIKE it...feel the need to DO it...but that does not make it right...
[19:45] <LadyMist> or TOLERABLE...
[19:45] * LadyMist nods
[19:45] <ravenshad> How do those involved in such a variety filled lifestyle such as BDSM, who espouse tolerance, explain that there are such things as limits to those who believe that BDSM means immoral behavior is acceptable?
[19:45] <SithRose> Mmmmm
[19:45] <SithRose> Explain that nothing is non-consensual
[19:46] <LadyMist> ahhhh I don't think those people can make the jump...like knife play = an ax murderer..
[19:46] <tmouse{K}> that we use the motto safe, sane, and consensual at all times.
[19:46] <LadyMist> and we KNOW that is not true..
[19:46] <ravenshad> ok..I can understand explaining how consent plays a part in BDSM..
[19:47] <LadyMist> and keep the slavery issue OUT of it...'G' until they get that...'G'
[19:47] <ravenshad> ROFL LM
[19:47] <ravenshad> good point..
[19:47] <SithRose> Hehehe
[19:47] <chens{LM}> *grins*
[19:48] <LadyMist> BIG concept... and person NOT ready = BIG misunderstnading...
[19:48] <SithRose> Yes, definately keep it to the mild stuff
[19:48] <ravenshad> Is it our responsibility to educate those who are not in the lifestyle as to what tolerance and acceptance means to the lifestyle?
[19:48] <LadyMist> nahhh...lead by example...
[19:48] <SithRose> Only if they a: show interest or b: are overly antagonistic towards us
[19:48] <tmouse{K}> i agree
[19:49] <ravenshad> I agree with lead by example..words are wonderful, but they do not matter when faced with actions that do not match those words..it is a person's actions that are what most people see before anything else..
[19:49] * SithRose nods at raven
[19:49] * minx^ks sits quietly
[19:49] <SithRose> Words can only lead so far
[19:50] <ravenshad> So how do we increase tolerance and acceptance in BDSM when we argue amongst ourselves, judge other BDSMers and sometimes get a hiugh and mighty "My way is right" attitude?
[19:50] <ravenshad> that question is NOT meant to blame anyone here....it is a rhetorical question..
[19:51] <LadyMist> 'S' we know raven...
[19:51] <SithRose> Try to present a united front?
[19:51] <LadyMist> I was guilty of that too...
[19:51] <tmouse{K}> we really can't in that context.......
[19:51] <SithRose> It's hard to do, yes.
[19:51] <LadyMist> I think we need to clean our own house so to speak before we try to educate...
[19:51] * ntalia sneaks in quietly and listens.
[19:51] <tmouse{K}> i agree.......
[19:51] * Amax nods and smiles to talia
[19:52] <tmouse{K}> we should be able to live what we preach........
[19:52] * LadyMist agrees...
[19:52] <SithRose> Does anybody live what they preach in full, do you think?
[19:52] <tmouse{K}> not really
[19:52] <LadyMist> I try...and live up to it when I fail...
[19:52] <ravenshad> Honestly SR, I think some try, but no one ever fully succeed..but for me, it's the attempt that matters..
[19:52] <ravenshad> Ezxactly LM
[19:52] * LadyMist thinks that is important too...
[19:52] <tmouse{K}> Master has told me that some of the people around here do.....
[19:53] <tmouse{K}> i try to live upto Master's standards, and we do practice what we preach, at least 75% of the time.
[19:53] <LadyMist> 'S' good for both of you!
[19:53] <ravenshad> THat is a wonderful thing to to tmouse!! :)
[19:54] <ravenshad> Presenting a united front, how do we do that when we are so diverse?
[19:54] <tmouse{K}> thanks.
[19:54] <LadyMist> realizing that we can unite in the fact we are so diverse...
[19:54] <LadyMist> and different...and we will never be accpeted by the "mainstream" we have commenality int hat...
[19:55] * SithRose nods
[19:55] * LadyMist crowns herself typo queen and signs up for classes...
[19:55] <^Ming> Is there really a mainstream?
[19:55] <ravenshad> Ahhhh..excelltn point LM..so how does such a diverse group unite?
[19:55] <minx^ks> lol
[19:55] <^Ming> is that the missionary style crowd?
[19:55] <minx^ks> (at ^Ming's comment)
[19:55] <LadyMist> I meant vanilla...normal...what I "wish" I was when I am pulling my ahir out...
[19:55] <LadyMist> 'G'
[19:56] <ravenshad> I don't think so Ming...unless one counts mainstream as only those who engage in NO kinky anything at all..if that's true, then they are the minority, we are the majority
[19:56] <SithRose> The mainstream would count as the ones who tend to be more accepted by society
[19:56] <LadyMist> that's the ones!!!
[19:56] <ravenshad> Quite a few people engage in what would technically be termed kinky sex...that takes them out of "vanilla"
[19:56] <minx^ks> i think the net has helped so many explore their own special unique sexualities
[19:56] <ravenshad> ahhh...aren't we accepted at face value provided we keep BDSM private?
[19:57] <^Ming> I agree minx
[19:57] <ravenshad> why would BDSM, should it anyway, affect how people view others just for their lifestyle choice?
[19:57] <SithRose> Usually, yes.
[19:57] <ravenshad> I agree minx
[19:57] <SithRose> Because it scares people.
[19:57] <LadyMist> but they don't identify with BDSM for the fact that what we do "hurts" peoples...
[19:57] <ravenshad> Yes it does SR..I think it scares people because it can and often does uphold a mindset that society has decided is wrong..
[19:57] <ravenshad> That too LM
[19:58] <ravenshad> SO how does acceptance figure into BDSM?
[19:58] <SithRose> Mmmm
[19:58] <minx^ks> it helped me and gave me so many sources to find information. and i do believe one's sexuality belongs in the private domain to an extent
[19:58] <SithRose> We have to be ready to accept strange behavior from others
[19:59] <ravenshad> I agree ther minx, but I do not agree that one's sexuality should be used as ammunition against them..
[19:59] * LadyMist agreesssss
[19:59] <ravenshad> How about..accept ourselves first?
[19:59] <ravenshad> then..accept that there are others who do things other ways and are happy/healthy doing so?
[19:59] <Jackel21> I agree raven
[19:59] <minx^ks> ouhaving kids, i find the *public* domain a bit eroticised
[19:59] <minx^ks> and it is confusing for the young ones
[19:59] <ravenshad> then accept that we may not be able to change the world's view, but by matching our actions with our words, we can further acceptance in general society?
[20:00] <LadyMist> But I can't match it...not openly here...
[20:00] <LadyMist> not about leather at least...
[20:00] <LadyMist> 'sigh'
[20:00] * chens{LM} hugs LM
[20:01] <ravenshad> I did not mean be "open" to the world..
[20:01] <SithRose> How about a little bit open?
[20:01] <LadyMist> until the laws change that allow BDSM'ers to raise children without fear...
[20:01] * fae{SR} quietly sneaks back in and hugs SithRose *
[20:01] <ravenshad> I meant , that by being the people we are (in vast generalities, we are good people)..that we can by virtue of this, further the idea that BDSMer's are not child murdering rapists....
[20:01] <tmouse{K}> we are having a thunderstorm, so if i disappear suddenly it's because we lost power.
[20:01] <^Ming> do bdsm'ers break any laws?
[20:02] <LadyMist> they are here!
[20:02] <SithRose> Very often.
[20:02] <LadyMist> breaking quite a few laws...
[20:02] <^Ming> why would children be taken from them
[20:02] <SithRose> There's a lot of laws about any other kind of sex but missionary position
[20:02] <SithRose> Including oral sex.
[20:02] <ravenshad> tmouse, you may want to shut down before you lose power..
[20:02] <minx^ks> i agree ravenshad. our freedom in this area must always be protected
[20:02] <Jackel21> Yes that true they do break laws here
[20:02] <tmouse{K}> in the state where i live it is against the law for BDSM lifestyle.
[20:02] <LadyMist> if you are proven a bisexual or lesbian in the state of SC you lose your kids..
[20:02] <ravenshad> In every state BDSM iss against the law...
[20:02] <LadyMist> much less poly or leather...
[20:02] <^Ming> really?
[20:02] <minx^ks> whoa, really LadyMist?
[20:02] <ravenshad> we ignore it..which makes it easy for us to be attacked as "immoral" and not law abiding..
[20:02] <tmouse{K}> yep, that and having sex with anyone else besides your spouse.
[20:02] <ravenshad> yes..it's called "abuse"
[20:03] <LadyMist> DSS would snatch my littles right out the house...
[20:03] * ^Ming never knew... see the magazines and movies...
[20:03] <minx^ks> wow
[20:03] <^Ming> they are not illegal
[20:03] <minx^ks> that is scary
[20:03] <LadyMist> 'S' I know been though the divorce and has sweatted it greatly...
[20:03] <minx^ks> is it ever enforced, LadyMist?
[20:03] <LadyMist> YES
[20:03] <ravenshad> sleeping with others is illegale Ming in most states..but it is not always enforced..
[20:04] <LadyMist> if I didn't have serious dirt on my ex I would not have my oldest..
[20:04] <ravenshad> some states are beginning to enforce those laws as well as antipornography laws
[20:04] <tmouse{K}> that is classified as adultery
[20:04] <Jackel21> It is consider mental abuse to the child plus they accusse you of using items on the child for pleasure or punishment
[20:04] * SithRose nods
[20:04] <LadyMist> and a waman in Ga has lost her daughter for being poly
[20:04] <LadyMist> her grandma began the proceedings...the mom's mom
[20:04] <^Ming> As long as the children are not exposed to inappropriate level of activity... I see no reason the parenting is different
[20:05] <Jackel21> Ming they do not see it that way
[20:05] <LadyMist> I don't wither...unfortunately thhe laws have NOT caught up...
[20:05] <tmouse{K}> and here BDSM is classified as crimes against human nature.
[20:05] <fae{SR}> the law often times does not make sense unfortunately
[20:05] <ravenshad> Other things that were once outlawed and persecuted have achieved some level of acceptance and tolerance ...do you think BDSM will ever do the same?
[20:05] <tmouse{K}> eventually it will.
[20:05] <fae{SR}> eventually, hopefully within our lifetimes
[20:05] <ravenshad> Some BDSM activites are carachterized as assault/battery and abuse..
[20:05] <ravenshad> that would be nice fae.. :)
[20:05] <Jackel21> in about 100 years
[20:05] <^Ming> I suspect so raven... unless it is truly abuse
[20:05] <tmouse{K}> maybe not for quite awhile.
[20:06] <^Ming> vanilla men often beat there spouses... that is a crime
[20:06] <ravenshad> true Ming
[20:06] <LadyMist> I do know if I show up at the ER here with bruises...Milord can be charged without my concent...
[20:06] <tmouse{K}> i have been in that type of relationship.
[20:06] <^Ming> but bdsm is mostly loving...
[20:06] <ravenshad> yes he can be LM
[20:06] <LadyMist> or my pressing the charge..
[20:06] <LadyMist> even if I say it is consensual...
[20:07] <fae{SR}> the biggest problem i see the law of having is where is the line between lifestyle and abuse (sorry if this was covered already)
[20:07] <Jackel21> Yes Ming the husbands who abuse give BDSM the bad side of the apple
[20:07] <LadyMist> how is that for tolerance..?
[20:07] <ravenshad> Now could tolerance and acceptance, if it reaches a high enough level, effect the ability of society to prosecute us?
[20:07] <^Ming> I do not think I could tolerate bdsm that is truly abusive
[20:07] * LadyMist wonders how lows could be adapted...
[20:07] <SithRose> Not the ability, but the inclination
[20:07] <tmouse{K}> i think it can to a certain extent.
[20:08] <LadyMist> BDSM can NOT be abusive...
[20:08] <ravenshad> lets not get into the difference between BDSM and abuse please..that is another discussion all on it's own..
[20:08] <LadyMist> once ones intends to abuse it leaves the realm of consent
[20:08] <LadyMist> 'G"
[20:08] <fae{SR}> it can in a lot of the lower courts of the law, having bdsm friendly judges and jury (as there are already bdsm friendly councilors and some lawyers)
[20:08] <Jackel21> There always going to be someone who says it is abuse
[20:08] * LadyMist heads back on topic
[20:09] * LadyMist jumps on the tolerant trampoline a couple of times...
[20:09] <^Ming> Yes Jackel... I agree
[20:09] <fae{SR}> i just wanted to point out that the law likes nice clean lines, not subjective ones (supposedly)
[20:09] <ravenshad> Do you think that if we practice more tolerance and acceptance within our group, that it will affect society as a whole? and how would it affect them?
[20:09] <LadyMist> I think it will... mob mentality and all that...
[20:09] <fae{SR}> i do not think tolerance within our group would really make a difference...
[20:09] <LadyMist> it is easier to follow than lead...
[20:09] <Jackel21> Like anything else some would accept and other not
[20:09] <fae{SR}> however, tolerance of our vanilla friends and associates most definately will
[20:10] <SithRose> Yes
[20:10] <tmouse{K}> well, our power is starting to flicker, will try to join in the next time......
[20:10] <SithRose> And tolerance will eventually reduce the inclination to persecute.
[20:10] <ravenshad> I agree SR and fae..
[20:10] <ravenshad> I do think though, that we need to exert a bit more tolerance and acceptance amongst ourselves..
[20:10] <fae{SR}> at the very least, more people will merely 'look the other way' as far as BDSM goes
[20:11] <ravenshad> we need to realize that it is not a mortal sin or some kind of atrocity for others to do things differently..
[20:11] <ravenshad> I think that would certainly help fae..
[20:11] * LadyMist agrees
[20:11] <^Ming> well... the religious right has a corner on the intolerance market... but the mainstream is more accepting
[20:11] <fae{SR}> i agree with that raven, to build a strong rather than fragmented community, but those are two entirely different outcomes at this stage
[20:11] <ravenshad> yes..this is true...
[20:12] <^Ming> I do not think building a community of bdsm will allow any additional tolerance
[20:12] <ravenshad> to toss in a different twist on this..how does acceptance and tolerance affect each of us when we are viewing ourselves?
[20:12] <LadyMist> arrrgggghhhhhhhh I have trouble being at peace with myself in the best of times...
[20:12] <SithRose> When others are more accepting of us, perhaps we will be less worried about being accepted?
[20:12] <fae{SR}> well, for starters it can make things more comfortable in the home with visitors around
[20:13] <ravenshad> Would it make things easier for you Mist, if you had that inner acceptance?
[20:13] <SithRose> Hehehe. And parents.
[20:13] <chens{LM}> *giggles* and vanilla roomies
[20:13] <ravenshad> possibly SR...but when it comes to BDSM to a popint, don't we need to dismiss how others' view us in order to be satisfied even a bit with ourselves?
[20:14] <LadyMist> This is me...and my internal struggle...
[20:14] <ravenshad> each of us has internal struggles..
[20:14] <LadyMist> I don't think everyone in the world telling me I am "ok" would change this one.
[20:14] <ravenshad> does how we deal with them affect how we deal with others?
[20:14] <SithRose> Yes, but would it be easier to accept what you are if you didnt have most of society telling you you're sick?
[20:14] <^Ming> Well... in society we all must temper ourselves
[20:15] <ravenshad> I can understand that LM
[20:15] <fae{SR}> to a degree raven, i however would like to point out that it can become extremely uncomfortable if one is alienated by one's family for lifestyle, or they can choose to hide that and be inconvenience but still have their family's support
[20:15] <SithRose> From the beginning of your life?
[20:15] <ravenshad> this is true fae..
[20:16] <LadyMist> SR: I don't think so...not for me right now... I have had this "thing" about me being "too much trouble" vanilla vs kinky
[20:17] <SithRose> Too much trouble?
[20:17] <ravenshad> LOL chens
[20:17] * chens{LM} hugs LM who is NOT too much trouble
[20:18] <LadyMist> that the "kinky sex" is too much trouble...like I went to high maintenance from low cause I don't do the "making love" stuff...
[20:18] <SithRose> Ahhh.
[20:18] <SithRose> I know that feeling myself, sometimes
[20:18] <^Ming> Feeling uncomfortable is natural I suppose... No one feels comfortable having their private lives displayed
[20:18] <LadyMist> which Milord has NOT espoused...
[20:19] <LadyMist> but others have...and that phrase has become the "kiss of death" for me...
[20:19] <LadyMist> my selfesteem cannot stnad it...
[20:20] <ravenshad> LM, I've been termed high maintenance because I want and desire communication....
[20:20] <ravenshad> I hate being ignored and never spoken to no matter what..for days on end, with no explanation..
[20:21] <ravenshad> by someone else's definitions..EVERYONE else is high maintenance..
[20:21] <chens{LM}> id hate that too raven
[20:21] <LadyMist> 'snorts' I want anyone to be around me and TRY not to communicate...
[20:21] <chens{LM}> *giggles* or answer indirectly ...
[20:21] <LadyMist> being ignored is the most worstest punishment I can ever imagine...
[20:22] <ravenshad> Anyone have any other thoughts or questions?
[20:22] <Tats-afk> i'm with ya too raven
[20:23] <ntalia> i think just as there is a spectrum in our society, perhaps there is one in our lives too. we change. circumstances change.
[20:25] <ravenshad> I would guess that the discussion on tolerance and acceptance has ended.. ?
[20:26] <LadyMist> 'G' I guess....
[20:26] * ravenshad giggles
[20:26] <LadyMist> and I need to find that web cam...
[20:26] * LadyMist grins at Tatsumi
[20:26] <SithRose> I think so
[20:27] * ravenshad settles back and relaxes...gosh it's been too long since i've been heading a discussion..I'm out of pracite
[20:27] <ravenshad> practice even
[20:28] <ravenshad> I really appreciate everyone's help in keeping this going..thank you all so much :)
[20:28] <SithRose> You're welcome.
[20:28] <LadyMist> you did better than I ever did raven..don't seel yourself short...
[20:28] * ravenshad smiles
[20:28] <SithRose> It's lots of fun...even when I don't say much
[20:28] <Tatsumi> :)
[20:28] <ravenshad> It is fun SR..:)
[20:28] * LadyMist agrees
[20:28] <ravenshad> I think you all did a good job.. :)
[20:28] <ravenshad> don't worry LM..I don't come cheap..<giggle>
[20:29] <ravenshad> no problem Tats..if you wish to add something..please do..I'll edit it into the end of the discussion log..
[20:29] <ravenshad> I can understand that Tats..
[20:29] <Tatsumi> about tolerance? i think people should have some:)
[20:29] <chens{LM}> *grins*
[20:29] <Tatsumi> good enough? lol
[20:29] <SithRose> I think lots of people need some
[20:29] <Tatsumi> yup
[20:29] * LadyMist hands it out at the door...
[20:29] <Tatsumi> all people even
[20:29] <Tatsumi> lol
[19:14] *** Now talking in #Leather_and_Roses
[19:29] * ravenshad says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions on BDSM the following rules apply..
[19:29] <ravenshad> you must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave. Legal age being 18 or 21 depending on your location
[19:29] <ravenshad> no trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night
[19:29] <ravenshad> be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[19:29] <ravenshad> all statements are publishable on the web site, with nicks changed (at your request, email webmaster@leathernroses.com if you don't want your nick used.) If an email request is not recieved, that will be taken as consent to post the log in it's entirety using the nicknames.
[19:30] <ravenshad> Tonight's topic is Tolerance and Acceptance in the lifestyle...
[19:30] <ravenshad> lets start with..what is tolerance?
[19:30] <SithRose> Knowing that your way isn't the only way.
[19:30] <LadyMist> accepting one's right to live their life without hinderance...
[19:31] <ravenshad> Does it affect how we view others?
[19:31] <SithRose> Mmmm, it shouldn't but it probably does.
[19:32] <LadyMist> viewing others is judgement...and I think that is different from tolerating them..
[19:32] <ravenshad> isn't tolerance the ability to accept others who are different from us?
[19:32] <ravenshad> everyone has a "view" on other people LadyMist..don't they?
[19:33] <LadyMist> we don't have to like or accpet what they do to accept their right to do it...
[19:33] <ravenshad> I agree...
[19:33] <LadyMist> that is an opinion...a judgement...
[19:33] <LadyMist> not tolerance...( in my book)
[19:33] <ravenshad> does that mean we can't state that we might not agree with something someone else says or does?
[19:33] * SithRose nods at LM
[19:34] <SithRose> We can state that we don't agree, buyt we don't have the right to try and change what they do.
[19:34] <chens{LM}> we can state our opinion ... but not to enforce it
[19:34] <ravenshad> Why do you think that some find it neccessary t try and change how others' do things?
[19:34] <LadyMist> they think that thier way is "right"
[19:34] * Amax nods to all...
[19:34] <SithRose> Because they're scared of something that's differen
[19:34] * Amax quitely goes to his chair and relaxes
[19:34] <ravenshad> Don't we all think our way is right?
[19:34] <tmouse{K}> or better.
[19:35] <ravenshad> good point SR :)
[19:35] <LadyMist> I don't...'S"
[19:35] <SithRose> For ourselves, yes, for others, no
[19:35] <LadyMist> I only have my small corner of the world and it only owrks for me...and sometimes not even that....
[19:35] * ravenshad nods...
[19:36] <ravenshad> Is part of the reason many of us are attracted to/involved in BDSM is the variety the lifestyle provides us?
[19:36] <SithRose> Yes, I would say so
[19:36] <tmouse{K}> for me it is.
[19:36] <tmouse{K}> that and some or most need that dominant partner.
[19:36] * LadyMist thinks
[19:36] <tmouse{K}> or submissive partner.
[19:37] <ravenshad> Then shouldn't we tolerate others who do things in their BDSM relationships differently than we would chose for ourselves?
[19:37] <tmouse{K}> yes, we should,
[19:37] <SithRose> Yes, we should. But is should what we do?
[19:37] <tmouse{K}> as the saying goes, "to each His/her own".
[19:37] <ravenshad> not always SithRose...though, I personally feel we should all try to be more tolerant of others...though, that is quite difficult to do..
[19:38] * SithRose tries very hard too....
[19:38] <ravenshad> When someone says they are tolerant of others, they can be met with extreme examples to get them to say they would not allow such to take place in front of them..such as child abuse or murder...why do you think that is?
[19:39] <LadyMist> I think those who are really uncomfortable rely on the immoral to justify their beliefs..
[19:39] <Amax> But when does tolerance become apathy...
[19:39] <tmouse{K}> they are crimes against humanity.
[19:39] * SithRose nods at LM
[19:39] <tmouse{K}> inocent people get hurt......
[19:39] <SithRose> Because they're trying too hard to be tolerant?
[19:39] <LadyMist> tolerance never becomes apathy...
[19:39] <ravenshad> good point Amax...when does it?
[19:39] <SithRose> Why do you say that, LM?
[19:39] <LadyMist> when people know moral from tolerant
[19:39] <ravenshad> then how can one justify taking a stand on something...and saying they are tolerant?
[19:40] <ravenshad> ahhh..good point LM :)
[19:41] <chens{LM}> i think people come up with the extremes bc they want some kind of limits.. boundaries... to find out where the toleance ends...
[19:42] <LadyMist> I agree... and some can't stand the thought of someone accepting...
[19:43] <ravenshad> Now that is an interesting point..presenting extremes to find that there is indeed a limit to tolerance..
[19:43] <ravenshad> this could very well be...I know that it must be very uncomfortable to think that "everything" must be tolerated and accepted...no matter what it is..
[19:44] <tmouse{K}> yea, it is.....
[19:44] * SithRose nods at raven
[19:44] <SithRose> Most things, yes, but not everything
[19:44] <LadyMist> some things go outside the realm of acceptable...and into the immoral...for example...child molestation...
[19:44] <ravenshad> I agree LM..
[19:45] <chens{LM}> i think people are more comfortable believing that others believe what they believe... even if they have to go to extremes to find it... like child molestation
[19:45] <LadyMist> you might LIKE it...feel the need to DO it...but that does not make it right...
[19:45] <LadyMist> or TOLERABLE...
[19:45] * LadyMist nods
[19:45] <ravenshad> How do those involved in such a variety filled lifestyle such as BDSM, who espouse tolerance, explain that there are such things as limits to those who believe that BDSM means immoral behavior is acceptable?
[19:45] <SithRose> Mmmmm
[19:45] <SithRose> Explain that nothing is non-consensual
[19:46] <LadyMist> ahhhh I don't think those people can make the jump...like knife play = an ax murderer..
[19:46] <tmouse{K}> that we use the motto safe, sane, and consensual at all times.
[19:46] <LadyMist> and we KNOW that is not true..
[19:46] <ravenshad> ok..I can understand explaining how consent plays a part in BDSM..
[19:47] <LadyMist> and keep the slavery issue OUT of it...'G' until they get that...'G'
[19:47] <ravenshad> ROFL LM
[19:47] <ravenshad> good point..
[19:47] <SithRose> Hehehe
[19:47] <chens{LM}> *grins*
[19:48] <LadyMist> BIG concept... and person NOT ready = BIG misunderstnading...
[19:48] <SithRose> Yes, definately keep it to the mild stuff
[19:48] <ravenshad> Is it our responsibility to educate those who are not in the lifestyle as to what tolerance and acceptance means to the lifestyle?
[19:48] <LadyMist> nahhh...lead by example...
[19:48] <SithRose> Only if they a: show interest or b: are overly antagonistic towards us
[19:48] <tmouse{K}> i agree
[19:49] <ravenshad> I agree with lead by example..words are wonderful, but they do not matter when faced with actions that do not match those words..it is a person's actions that are what most people see before anything else..
[19:49] * SithRose nods at raven
[19:49] * minx^ks sits quietly
[19:49] <SithRose> Words can only lead so far
[19:50] <ravenshad> So how do we increase tolerance and acceptance in BDSM when we argue amongst ourselves, judge other BDSMers and sometimes get a hiugh and mighty "My way is right" attitude?
[19:50] <ravenshad> that question is NOT meant to blame anyone here....it is a rhetorical question..
[19:51] <LadyMist> 'S' we know raven...
[19:51] <SithRose> Try to present a united front?
[19:51] <LadyMist> I was guilty of that too...
[19:51] <tmouse{K}> we really can't in that context.......
[19:51] <SithRose> It's hard to do, yes.
[19:51] <LadyMist> I think we need to clean our own house so to speak before we try to educate...
[19:51] * ntalia sneaks in quietly and listens.
[19:51] <tmouse{K}> i agree.......
[19:51] * Amax nods and smiles to talia
[19:52] <tmouse{K}> we should be able to live what we preach........
[19:52] * LadyMist agrees...
[19:52] <SithRose> Does anybody live what they preach in full, do you think?
[19:52] <tmouse{K}> not really
[19:52] <LadyMist> I try...and live up to it when I fail...
[19:52] <ravenshad> Honestly SR, I think some try, but no one ever fully succeed..but for me, it's the attempt that matters..
[19:52] <ravenshad> Ezxactly LM
[19:52] * LadyMist thinks that is important too...
[19:52] <tmouse{K}> Master has told me that some of the people around here do.....
[19:53] <tmouse{K}> i try to live upto Master's standards, and we do practice what we preach, at least 75% of the time.
[19:53] <LadyMist> 'S' good for both of you!
[19:53] <ravenshad> THat is a wonderful thing to to tmouse!! :)
[19:54] <ravenshad> Presenting a united front, how do we do that when we are so diverse?
[19:54] <tmouse{K}> thanks.
[19:54] <LadyMist> realizing that we can unite in the fact we are so diverse...
[19:54] <LadyMist> and different...and we will never be accpeted by the "mainstream" we have commenality int hat...
[19:55] * SithRose nods
[19:55] * LadyMist crowns herself typo queen and signs up for classes...
[19:55] <^Ming> Is there really a mainstream?
[19:55] <ravenshad> Ahhhh..excelltn point LM..so how does such a diverse group unite?
[19:55] <minx^ks> lol
[19:55] <^Ming> is that the missionary style crowd?
[19:55] <minx^ks> (at ^Ming's comment)
[19:55] <LadyMist> I meant vanilla...normal...what I "wish" I was when I am pulling my ahir out...
[19:55] <LadyMist> 'G'
[19:56] <ravenshad> I don't think so Ming...unless one counts mainstream as only those who engage in NO kinky anything at all..if that's true, then they are the minority, we are the majority
[19:56] <SithRose> The mainstream would count as the ones who tend to be more accepted by society
[19:56] <LadyMist> that's the ones!!!
[19:56] <ravenshad> Quite a few people engage in what would technically be termed kinky sex...that takes them out of "vanilla"
[19:56] <minx^ks> i think the net has helped so many explore their own special unique sexualities
[19:56] <ravenshad> ahhh...aren't we accepted at face value provided we keep BDSM private?
[19:57] <^Ming> I agree minx
[19:57] <ravenshad> why would BDSM, should it anyway, affect how people view others just for their lifestyle choice?
[19:57] <SithRose> Usually, yes.
[19:57] <ravenshad> I agree minx
[19:57] <SithRose> Because it scares people.
[19:57] <LadyMist> but they don't identify with BDSM for the fact that what we do "hurts" peoples...
[19:57] <ravenshad> Yes it does SR..I think it scares people because it can and often does uphold a mindset that society has decided is wrong..
[19:57] <ravenshad> That too LM
[19:58] <ravenshad> SO how does acceptance figure into BDSM?
[19:58] <SithRose> Mmmm
[19:58] <minx^ks> it helped me and gave me so many sources to find information. and i do believe one's sexuality belongs in the private domain to an extent
[19:58] <SithRose> We have to be ready to accept strange behavior from others
[19:59] <ravenshad> I agree ther minx, but I do not agree that one's sexuality should be used as ammunition against them..
[19:59] * LadyMist agreesssss
[19:59] <ravenshad> How about..accept ourselves first?
[19:59] <ravenshad> then..accept that there are others who do things other ways and are happy/healthy doing so?
[19:59] <Jackel21> I agree raven
[19:59] <minx^ks> ouhaving kids, i find the *public* domain a bit eroticised
[19:59] <minx^ks> and it is confusing for the young ones
[19:59] <ravenshad> then accept that we may not be able to change the world's view, but by matching our actions with our words, we can further acceptance in general society?
[20:00] <LadyMist> But I can't match it...not openly here...
[20:00] <LadyMist> not about leather at least...
[20:00] <LadyMist> 'sigh'
[20:00] * chens{LM} hugs LM
[20:01] <ravenshad> I did not mean be "open" to the world..
[20:01] <SithRose> How about a little bit open?
[20:01] <LadyMist> until the laws change that allow BDSM'ers to raise children without fear...
[20:01] * fae{SR} quietly sneaks back in and hugs SithRose *
[20:01] <ravenshad> I meant , that by being the people we are (in vast generalities, we are good people)..that we can by virtue of this, further the idea that BDSMer's are not child murdering rapists....
[20:01] <tmouse{K}> we are having a thunderstorm, so if i disappear suddenly it's because we lost power.
[20:01] <^Ming> do bdsm'ers break any laws?
[20:02] <LadyMist> they are here!
[20:02] <SithRose> Very often.
[20:02] <LadyMist> breaking quite a few laws...
[20:02] <^Ming> why would children be taken from them
[20:02] <SithRose> There's a lot of laws about any other kind of sex but missionary position
[20:02] <SithRose> Including oral sex.
[20:02] <ravenshad> tmouse, you may want to shut down before you lose power..
[20:02] <minx^ks> i agree ravenshad. our freedom in this area must always be protected
[20:02] <Jackel21> Yes that true they do break laws here
[20:02] <tmouse{K}> in the state where i live it is against the law for BDSM lifestyle.
[20:02] <LadyMist> if you are proven a bisexual or lesbian in the state of SC you lose your kids..
[20:02] <ravenshad> In every state BDSM iss against the law...
[20:02] <LadyMist> much less poly or leather...
[20:02] <^Ming> really?
[20:02] <minx^ks> whoa, really LadyMist?
[20:02] <ravenshad> we ignore it..which makes it easy for us to be attacked as "immoral" and not law abiding..
[20:02] <tmouse{K}> yep, that and having sex with anyone else besides your spouse.
[20:02] <ravenshad> yes..it's called "abuse"
[20:03] <LadyMist> DSS would snatch my littles right out the house...
[20:03] * ^Ming never knew... see the magazines and movies...
[20:03] <minx^ks> wow
[20:03] <^Ming> they are not illegal
[20:03] <minx^ks> that is scary
[20:03] <LadyMist> 'S' I know been though the divorce and has sweatted it greatly...
[20:03] <minx^ks> is it ever enforced, LadyMist?
[20:03] <LadyMist> YES
[20:03] <ravenshad> sleeping with others is illegale Ming in most states..but it is not always enforced..
[20:04] <LadyMist> if I didn't have serious dirt on my ex I would not have my oldest..
[20:04] <ravenshad> some states are beginning to enforce those laws as well as antipornography laws
[20:04] <tmouse{K}> that is classified as adultery
[20:04] <Jackel21> It is consider mental abuse to the child plus they accusse you of using items on the child for pleasure or punishment
[20:04] * SithRose nods
[20:04] <LadyMist> and a waman in Ga has lost her daughter for being poly
[20:04] <LadyMist> her grandma began the proceedings...the mom's mom
[20:04] <^Ming> As long as the children are not exposed to inappropriate level of activity... I see no reason the parenting is different
[20:05] <Jackel21> Ming they do not see it that way
[20:05] <LadyMist> I don't wither...unfortunately thhe laws have NOT caught up...
[20:05] <tmouse{K}> and here BDSM is classified as crimes against human nature.
[20:05] <fae{SR}> the law often times does not make sense unfortunately
[20:05] <ravenshad> Other things that were once outlawed and persecuted have achieved some level of acceptance and tolerance ...do you think BDSM will ever do the same?
[20:05] <tmouse{K}> eventually it will.
[20:05] <fae{SR}> eventually, hopefully within our lifetimes
[20:05] <ravenshad> Some BDSM activites are carachterized as assault/battery and abuse..
[20:05] <ravenshad> that would be nice fae.. :)
[20:05] <Jackel21> in about 100 years
[20:05] <^Ming> I suspect so raven... unless it is truly abuse
[20:05] <tmouse{K}> maybe not for quite awhile.
[20:06] <^Ming> vanilla men often beat there spouses... that is a crime
[20:06] <ravenshad> true Ming
[20:06] <LadyMist> I do know if I show up at the ER here with bruises...Milord can be charged without my concent...
[20:06] <tmouse{K}> i have been in that type of relationship.
[20:06] <^Ming> but bdsm is mostly loving...
[20:06] <ravenshad> yes he can be LM
[20:06] <LadyMist> or my pressing the charge..
[20:06] <LadyMist> even if I say it is consensual...
[20:07] <fae{SR}> the biggest problem i see the law of having is where is the line between lifestyle and abuse (sorry if this was covered already)
[20:07] <Jackel21> Yes Ming the husbands who abuse give BDSM the bad side of the apple
[20:07] <LadyMist> how is that for tolerance..?
[20:07] <ravenshad> Now could tolerance and acceptance, if it reaches a high enough level, effect the ability of society to prosecute us?
[20:07] <^Ming> I do not think I could tolerate bdsm that is truly abusive
[20:07] * LadyMist wonders how lows could be adapted...
[20:07] <SithRose> Not the ability, but the inclination
[20:07] <tmouse{K}> i think it can to a certain extent.
[20:08] <LadyMist> BDSM can NOT be abusive...
[20:08] <ravenshad> lets not get into the difference between BDSM and abuse please..that is another discussion all on it's own..
[20:08] <LadyMist> once ones intends to abuse it leaves the realm of consent
[20:08] <LadyMist> 'G"
[20:08] <fae{SR}> it can in a lot of the lower courts of the law, having bdsm friendly judges and jury (as there are already bdsm friendly councilors and some lawyers)
[20:08] <Jackel21> There always going to be someone who says it is abuse
[20:08] * LadyMist heads back on topic
[20:09] * LadyMist jumps on the tolerant trampoline a couple of times...
[20:09] <^Ming> Yes Jackel... I agree
[20:09] <fae{SR}> i just wanted to point out that the law likes nice clean lines, not subjective ones (supposedly)
[20:09] <ravenshad> Do you think that if we practice more tolerance and acceptance within our group, that it will affect society as a whole? and how would it affect them?
[20:09] <LadyMist> I think it will... mob mentality and all that...
[20:09] <fae{SR}> i do not think tolerance within our group would really make a difference...
[20:09] <LadyMist> it is easier to follow than lead...
[20:09] <Jackel21> Like anything else some would accept and other not
[20:09] <fae{SR}> however, tolerance of our vanilla friends and associates most definately will
[20:10] <SithRose> Yes
[20:10] <tmouse{K}> well, our power is starting to flicker, will try to join in the next time......
[20:10] <SithRose> And tolerance will eventually reduce the inclination to persecute.
[20:10] <ravenshad> I agree SR and fae..
[20:10] <ravenshad> I do think though, that we need to exert a bit more tolerance and acceptance amongst ourselves..
[20:10] <fae{SR}> at the very least, more people will merely 'look the other way' as far as BDSM goes
[20:11] <ravenshad> we need to realize that it is not a mortal sin or some kind of atrocity for others to do things differently..
[20:11] <ravenshad> I think that would certainly help fae..
[20:11] * LadyMist agrees
[20:11] <^Ming> well... the religious right has a corner on the intolerance market... but the mainstream is more accepting
[20:11] <fae{SR}> i agree with that raven, to build a strong rather than fragmented community, but those are two entirely different outcomes at this stage
[20:11] <ravenshad> yes..this is true...
[20:12] <^Ming> I do not think building a community of bdsm will allow any additional tolerance
[20:12] <ravenshad> to toss in a different twist on this..how does acceptance and tolerance affect each of us when we are viewing ourselves?
[20:12] <LadyMist> arrrgggghhhhhhhh I have trouble being at peace with myself in the best of times...
[20:12] <SithRose> When others are more accepting of us, perhaps we will be less worried about being accepted?
[20:12] <fae{SR}> well, for starters it can make things more comfortable in the home with visitors around
[20:13] <ravenshad> Would it make things easier for you Mist, if you had that inner acceptance?
[20:13] <SithRose> Hehehe. And parents.
[20:13] <chens{LM}> *giggles* and vanilla roomies
[20:13] <ravenshad> possibly SR...but when it comes to BDSM to a popint, don't we need to dismiss how others' view us in order to be satisfied even a bit with ourselves?
[20:14] <LadyMist> This is me...and my internal struggle...
[20:14] <ravenshad> each of us has internal struggles..
[20:14] <LadyMist> I don't think everyone in the world telling me I am "ok" would change this one.
[20:14] <ravenshad> does how we deal with them affect how we deal with others?
[20:14] <SithRose> Yes, but would it be easier to accept what you are if you didnt have most of society telling you you're sick?
[20:14] <^Ming> Well... in society we all must temper ourselves
[20:15] <ravenshad> I can understand that LM
[20:15] <fae{SR}> to a degree raven, i however would like to point out that it can become extremely uncomfortable if one is alienated by one's family for lifestyle, or they can choose to hide that and be inconvenience but still have their family's support
[20:15] <SithRose> From the beginning of your life?
[20:15] <ravenshad> this is true fae..
[20:16] <LadyMist> SR: I don't think so...not for me right now... I have had this "thing" about me being "too much trouble" vanilla vs kinky
[20:17] <SithRose> Too much trouble?
[20:17] <ravenshad> LOL chens
[20:17] * chens{LM} hugs LM who is NOT too much trouble
[20:18] <LadyMist> that the "kinky sex" is too much trouble...like I went to high maintenance from low cause I don't do the "making love" stuff...
[20:18] <SithRose> Ahhh.
[20:18] <SithRose> I know that feeling myself, sometimes
[20:18] <^Ming> Feeling uncomfortable is natural I suppose... No one feels comfortable having their private lives displayed
[20:18] <LadyMist> which Milord has NOT espoused...
[20:19] <LadyMist> but others have...and that phrase has become the "kiss of death" for me...
[20:19] <LadyMist> my selfesteem cannot stnad it...
[20:20] <ravenshad> LM, I've been termed high maintenance because I want and desire communication....
[20:20] <ravenshad> I hate being ignored and never spoken to no matter what..for days on end, with no explanation..
[20:21] <ravenshad> by someone else's definitions..EVERYONE else is high maintenance..
[20:21] <chens{LM}> id hate that too raven
[20:21] <LadyMist> 'snorts' I want anyone to be around me and TRY not to communicate...
[20:21] <chens{LM}> *giggles* or answer indirectly ...
[20:21] <LadyMist> being ignored is the most worstest punishment I can ever imagine...
[20:22] <ravenshad> Anyone have any other thoughts or questions?
[20:22] <Tats-afk> i'm with ya too raven
[20:23] <ntalia> i think just as there is a spectrum in our society, perhaps there is one in our lives too. we change. circumstances change.
[20:25] <ravenshad> I would guess that the discussion on tolerance and acceptance has ended.. ?
[20:26] <LadyMist> 'G' I guess....
[20:26] * ravenshad giggles
[20:26] <LadyMist> and I need to find that web cam...
[20:26] * LadyMist grins at Tatsumi
[20:26] <SithRose> I think so
[20:27] * ravenshad settles back and relaxes...gosh it's been too long since i've been heading a discussion..I'm out of pracite
[20:27] <ravenshad> practice even
[20:28] <ravenshad> I really appreciate everyone's help in keeping this going..thank you all so much :)
[20:28] <SithRose> You're welcome.
[20:28] <LadyMist> you did better than I ever did raven..don't seel yourself short...
[20:28] * ravenshad smiles
[20:28] <SithRose> It's lots of fun...even when I don't say much
[20:28] <Tatsumi> :)
[20:28] <ravenshad> It is fun SR..:)
[20:28] * LadyMist agrees
[20:28] <ravenshad> I think you all did a good job.. :)
[20:28] <ravenshad> don't worry LM..I don't come cheap..<giggle>
[20:29] <ravenshad> no problem Tats..if you wish to add something..please do..I'll edit it into the end of the discussion log..
[20:29] <ravenshad> I can understand that Tats..
[20:29] <Tatsumi> about tolerance? i think people should have some:)
[20:29] <chens{LM}> *grins*
[20:29] <Tatsumi> good enough? lol
[20:29] <SithRose> I think lots of people need some
[20:29] <Tatsumi> yup
[20:29] * LadyMist hands it out at the door...
[20:29] <Tatsumi> all people even
[20:29] <Tatsumi> lol
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