Presents:
BDSM Discussion 2
Safety
All Comments Posted Here With Permission Of The Participants
[12:23]
<raven{Az}> Welcome to Leather and Roses...
[12:24] <raven{Az}> Today is our second discussion.. I hope everyone had good holidays and wish to say Happy New Year to you all
[12:24] <raven{Az}> Our first discussion covered "learning the lifestyle"...it went well from my point of view.. <giggle> (but I'm biased..<g>)
[12:25] <raven{Az}> I decided to hold off until after the holidays before holding our second one..as well, we are trying a new time so that those who are "across the pond" so to speak can attend as well..
[12:26] <raven{Az}> Todays topic is Safety in general..I expect to be touching upon safety tips, safe sane consensual, and many other things regarding safety..
[12:27] <raven{Az}> This will be taken the same way the other one was, question and answer..please feel free to toss out a question for all to answer, or your own personal experience..
[12:27] <raven{Az}> For those who do not know, the rules for these discussions are as follows:
[12:27] <raven{Az}> 1: Be polite..no flaming wil be tolerated..you can state disagreement of an "idea" but not the person making them..
[12:28] <raven{Az}> 2: take turns..
[12:28] <raven{Az}> that's it really..just basically..play nice :)
[12:29] <raven{Az}> Any questions at all before we begin?
[12:29] <Ladymist> Not here 'S'
[12:30] * raven{Az} smiles..good.. :)
[12:30] <raven{Az}> then we shall begin..<giggle>
[12:30] * chensay smiles
[12:30] <raven{Az}> How does one learn safety measures to take during play>?
[12:31] <Bugs42`> most of it seems to be common sense, but it is best to ask questions
[12:31] * Ladymist looking sround waiting for someone else to go first....
[12:31] <raven{Az}> ask questions where Bugs?
[12:32] <_mizu_> humm, have no idea, never ran into that before
[12:32] <Ladymist> From the Dominant training you?
[12:32] <raven{Az}> that's one place yes LM :)
[12:32] <Ladymist> that's where I learned
[12:32] <raven{Az}> but not all dominants are trained by other dominants..so where would one that isn't being "trained" seek information?
[12:33] * ananda{R} read lots of books and would not play at a particular thing until I was well educated on the safety precautions as before I became owned, felt I was responsible for my safety
[12:33] <raven{Az}> aniles, question on the table is where does one learn about safety measures to be taken during play..
[12:33] <intoit{N}> Toaboth parties need to ask... wants desires expectations limits???
[12:33] <Bugs42`> and as far as questions, I meant ask each other, see what is comfortable with the other
[12:33] <raven{Az}> excellent ananda..and you raise a good point..a submissive is responsible for his/her own safety..
[12:34] <Ladymist> agreed...
[12:34] <windchime> asking questions of others that have more experience is always a good place to start
[12:34] * ananda{R} nods
[12:34] <ananda{R}> good idea windchime
[12:34] <raven{Az}> yes windchime.. :)
[12:34] <aniles`> I think submissive is responsible for where she puts her trust.
[12:34] <intoit{N}> both parties share the responsability
[12:34] * raven{Az} nods..
[12:34] <Ladymist> that too...'S"
[12:34] <intoit{N}> it is like raising a child
[12:34] <raven{Az}> both parties share the responsibility..true intoit very true..
[12:34] <ananda{R}> Master and I agree on limits before we "play"
[12:34] <ananda{R}> and we clearly have our safety words defined
[12:35] <raven{Az}> At any time should a safeword not be used?
[12:35] <windchime> limits change as you grow to know someone though
[12:35] <Bugs42`> I agree that both parties share the responsibility, but it is the subs because they are at the mercy of the other
[12:35] <intoit{N}> but what if those are exceeded??
[12:36] <Ladymist> I think safewords should always be there...but I cannever remember mine when I need it...and have to trust Master not to go too far....
[12:36] <ananda{R}> it is in my contract with my Master that safewords will always be acknowledged
[12:36] <raven{Az}> umm..isn't it the dom's responsibility to keep to the limits since the sub is at his/her mercy?
[12:36] <_mizu_> i would not say so Sir, a good Dom need's to know the sub and their reactions
[12:36] <windchime> i don't know if i agree with safewords being used in punishment
[12:36] <windchime> but then, i've never had punishment go farther than it was supposed to
[12:36] <Ladymist> but how would growth take place if the 'limits were not challenged....
[12:36] <aniles`> hmmmm, good question. What do you do if they are exceeded. I don't know, I have never really been in that situation. I suppose that is where a safe word could come in to play.
[12:36] <Bugs42`> yes, it is the Doms responsibility not to exceed and it is te subs to ensure that the Dom knows and understand s the limits
[12:37] <intoit{N}> now you have entered another domain
[12:37] <_mizu_> Marisha had a good idea of how far i could go just by watching my saber and kendo training
[12:37] <raven{Az}> I agree BUgs..
[12:38] <aniles`> Limits can be expanded on best when they are discussed in advance, if you are pushing a limit, both should be aware of the limit and the plan to push it.
[12:38] <raven{Az}> in a relationship that has been going on for a long period of time, safewords tend to fall out of use..simple because the participants know each other so well..
[12:38] <_mizu_> she had a hard time even getting close to the level of them in play
[12:38] <Ladymist> of course...
[12:38] <raven{Az}> I understand that mizu.. :)
[12:38] <raven{Az}> I agree with windchime..I personally don't use a safeword during a punishment..
[12:39] * ananda` nods in agreement with raven....learning eachother's body language
[12:39] * _mizu_ giggles
[12:39] <raven{Az}> but..thats a different arena than play..
[12:39] <intoit{N}> if you did it would not be punishment gf
[12:39] <windchime> true, but you asked if there was ever a time safewords should not be used <g>
[12:40] * raven{Az} returns
[12:40] <raven{Az}> yes I did windchime.. :)
[12:40] <ananda`> Master does not believe in corporal punishment, so I cannot speak on that one
[12:40] <Bugs42`> that is the only time i can think of, otherwise I think they should always be in place just in case
[12:40] <_mizu_> not realy raven, a cane dose just as much damage as a saber blade, got more injuries from saber bruies and cut's than play
[12:41] <raven{Az}> I can imagine mizu.. :)
[12:41] <chensay> i think a subbie who is in trouble wouldnt use a safeword if she did have it during punishment, to try to appease/please her Dom/me..but still feel safe knowing she HAS one
[12:41] * Ladymist shivers at the thought of a saber...
[12:42] <raven{Az}> exactly chensay..I call that "subbie pride"..<giggle>
[12:42] * chensay grins
[12:42] <Ladymist> LOL...agreed
[12:42] <SirWolf> grins at the thought of a saber
[12:42] <raven{Az}> many feel guilty or somehow "less" because they safe out..should a sub feel that way if the safe word was used properly in a situation where it was neccessary?
[12:42] <Ladymist> and too much subbie pride...
[12:42] * _mizu_ giggles
[12:42] * aniles` wouldn't use a safe word during punishment (even if she were allowed to), now begging, crying and such... well that may be a different subject
[12:42] <SirWolf> no never
[12:42] <raven{Az}> agreed aniles..I'm the same way..would only use one if my back forced me to
[12:42] <Ladymist> But we do
[12:42] <ananda`> probably not, raven, but I am guilty of that
[12:43] <raven{Az}> I think all subs are guilty of that..I know I am..
[12:43] <Ladymist> every time I have safed..the emotional fall out was worse than I think the physical stuuf would have been
[12:43] <ananda`> yes, because we want to please our Master more than anything, that we sometimes deny ourselves
[12:43] * aniles` nods
[12:43] * Ladymist nods
[12:43] <raven{Az}> You're right SirWolf, a sub shouldn't feel guilty..is it possible the guilt feelings come from having it hammered into them that a sub should take everything the dom dishes out? and it's all for the dom's pleasure..etc??
[12:44] <raven{Az}> exactly LM..I tear myself apart when/if I have to safe..which has only been twice in my life..
[12:44] <Ladymist> I have never felt like it was all for my///the Dom/mes pleasure
[12:44] <Bugs42`> ok, now about this subbie pride and not "safing" out, how do you feel when your Master feels bad because you were injured?
[12:44] <windchime> sometimes i've been close to safing...but i don't because i want to see how much farther i can go
[12:44] * ananda` nods in agreement with raven,,,,you have an excellent point there
[12:44] * Ladymist empathesizes...
[12:45] * Ladymist has never been injured so she can't comment
[12:45] <raven{Az}> you're lucky LM..one of the biggest thing I have heard people telling others is everything is for the dom completely..and I think this has something to do with the increasing subbie guilt..
[12:45] <raven{Az}> I feel like crap Bugs..but I've never been in that situation..thank gosh..
[12:45] * cyn{Wolf} feels guilty if i am injured
[12:45] <_mizu_> Marisha was usualy more mad at me for getting injuries out of play, "you take to many chances, how am i ever going to keep you in line when the pain is not there?"
[12:46] <Ladymist> it does increase guilt...and that is a crime...the play is ALWAYS for mutual pleasure
[12:46] <raven{Az}> windchime, you bring a good point there..seeing how far one can go..I agree that this happens alot..wanting to find where one's limits are..
[12:46] * ananda` agrees with Ladymist and Master reminds me of that always that if I don't derive pleasure, it is not pleasure for him
[12:46] <aniles`> Plus, you have to look at it from the view point that if you are injured badly, you will be unable to perform well for your Master.. so safe-ing out is not always a bad thing, when warrented
[12:46] <raven{Az}> good points.. :)
[12:46] <SirWolf> again your talking bout 2 diffrent areas,,,,play and punishment!!
[12:47] <raven{Az}> yes..I'm taking play first..we'll hit on punishment in a few.. :)
[12:47] <Ladymist> doesn't matter...injuries can happen in either arena
[12:47] <raven{Az}> Does the ability to safe out give the sub power or control?
[12:47] <Nymph> I agree with SirWolf play is definately different from punishment
[12:47] <ananda`> no, I think it gives him/her responsibility for him/herself
[12:47] <intoit{N}> absolutly
[12:48] * chensay agrees with ananda
[12:48] <Ladymist> I don't think so....just a safety net
[12:48] <_mizu_> only if they use it to their advantage
[12:48] <raven{Az}> ummm..but ananda, isn't that responsibiity supposed to be the dom's by virtue of the pwoer exchange?
[12:48] <raven{Az}> I agree mizu :)
[12:48] <SirWolf> and you can be hurt in both
[12:48] <Bugs42`> yes, it does give te sub some control, but only in terms of safety
[12:48] <raven{Az}> so that would be a agreed upon control then?
[12:48] <Nymph> I guess I think the subbies control the scene more than they are given credit for
[12:48] <ananda`> not according to my Master, he taught me that I am responsible to help him learn my limits and responsible to say yellow when it is right.
[12:48] <Ladymist> supposed to be the Dom/mes...but accidents can happen
[12:48] <aniles`> I think so many things are dependent on the dynamics of the relationship, the knowledge of each other and the trust that has been built.
[12:49] <chensay> the Dom/me is also trusting the sub to let Her know whether something is really wrong... so it can be corrected and worked through...
[12:49] * intoit{N} watshes the meanings of words weave together
[12:49] <raven{Az}> I agree Nymph..and what if the sub doesn't want that control?
[12:49] <raven{Az}> can't one tell the dom something is wrong without ending teh scene? wouldn't saying "the cuff is too tight" be just as effective?
[12:49] <Nymph> then they are not truly a sub...they then become a slave and the to me is entirely different
[12:49] <raven{Az}> <--- playing devil's advocate..so please don't tear my head off.. :)
[12:49] * chensay giggles
[12:49] <chensay> yes
[12:50] <aniles`> Yes, and to think about it, that is the route we usually take, Master and I, "that's too tight" or whatever.
[12:50] <Ladymist> I never expect a safe over a tigh cuff....I expect to hear that the cuff if too tight
[12:50] <ananda`> lol raven, guess maybe we could talk about use of the safewrods red, yellow etc?
[12:50] <raven{Az}> me to aniles.. :)
[12:50] <aniles`> and that has never been a problem
[12:50] <raven{Az}> Problem here LM is, that many think ANYTHING remotely "wrong" requires a safe word..and they use it for those things..
[12:50] <raven{Az}> fostering the belief that sub's safe out when they really don't have to..
[12:50] <Nymph> it is effective here...if intoit is not getting pleasure, then we go to something different so we both are getting the pleasure that we both crave
[12:50] * chensay giggles... the cuff is too tight... and i think my spleen is bruised... are two different levels of something is wrong
[12:50] <ananda`> good point raven
[12:51] * _mizu_ giggles
[12:51] <raven{Az}> I'm making the point that telling the dominant a cuff is too tight, isn't a safe..it's information to keep the scene pleasurable and safe for both
[12:51] <raven{Az}> LOL chensay..good point!
[12:51] * ananda` nods
[12:51] <Bugs42`> in my thinking, the safe word is used only for ending the scene, cuffs too tight etc, should be mentioned
[12:51] <raven{Az}> saying my spleen is bruised..well..END scene!!
[12:51] <raven{Az}> exactly Bugs..:)
[12:51] <_mizu_> "honn, please put the I bolt back in the WALL!" Marisha
[12:51] <aniles`> Ok, what if durring a flogging (or similar scene) the sub feels the Dom is unaware of where the blows are actually landing? for instance a flogger wrapping.
[12:52] <ananda`> thus, the importance of clearly defining your safewords before beginning a scene
[12:52] <Nymph> not true raven, if the sub can not speak for themselves, and tell one the cuff is too tight then that is a major problem and the subbie in question needs to learn "trust"
[12:52] <raven{Az}> agreed Nymph..
[12:53] <raven{Az}> then the sub should speak up aniles..and say something aobut it..
[12:53] <Nymph> again aniles, the subbie must trust that the Dom/me will adjust when they tell you something is wrong....
[12:53] <raven{Az}> it may not mean the scene has to end..
[12:53] <windchime> that's a tough one, aniles...because then you are also throwing doubt on the ability of
[12:53] <Nymph> but it should not ever come to a bruised spleen or anything else
[12:53] * raven{Az} thinks she's being misunderstood
[12:53] <aniles`> I have to admit, I have a hard time pointing something like this out, I feel as though I am "grading" Master's performance.
[12:54] <windchime> the person yielding the flogger...or at least some would view it that way
[12:54] <Ladymist> me too
[12:54] <raven{Az}> I agree aniles..I have a hard time pointing it out also..I usually wait until afterwards..unless the wrapping hits more than once..
[12:54] <windchime> i think we all do
[12:54] * Ladymist 's Master thinks comments about flogger techinique is 'topping from the bottom'
[12:54] <Nymph> I disagree, for intoit has spoke many times, when the problem occurs is the time to speak up, or major injury may occur
[12:54] <raven{Az}> So in the case of limits and stuff..wouldn't discussing the scene after it's over help both parties to see what was right and what could have been better?
[12:54] <intoit{N}> the third time usally does it to/for me
[12:55] <raven{Az}> I don't think it's topping frm the bottom..that's different..
[12:55] <_mizu_> yes raven, it is always good to do that
[12:55] <raven{Az}> I agree mizu :)
[12:55] <Ladymist> but thankfully He is so proficcient....it doesn't happen often..
[12:55] <windchime> but many see it that way, Raven
[12:56] <raven{Az}> they do windchime, and that is sad..
[12:56] <raven{Az}> I don't see anything wrong with a sub telling a dom.."umm I prefer not to have the tips of the flogger snap on my belly." or smething like that
[12:57] <Bugs42`> I know this is slightly off, but I was just curious about the experince level of everyone
[12:57] <windchime> but could you do it in the middle of the scene?
[12:57] <windchime> i don't think i could
[12:57] <raven{Az}> Ohh..good question Bugs.. :)
[12:57] <Ladymist> I couldn't either...
[12:57] <Bugs42`> that might help in figuring out who is new
[12:57] <ananda`> good idea bugs
[12:57] <aniles`> I have difficulty on discerning intentional acts from unintentional ones in a scene, which is why I prefer to either discuss details before (which is sometimes easier said than done) or to have verbalization from Master during.
[12:57] <chensay> very very new :)
[12:57] <raven{Az}> With physical play (from light to heavier intensity) I've "played" since I was 14..
[12:57] <raven{Az}> the mental aspects..2 and a half years I think it's been..
[12:57] * Ladymist wonders if she should split Dom sub sides of experience up..'G'
[12:57] * raven{Az} is 29
[12:58] <Ladymist> Domme...9 years....sub...7 years....
[12:58] <cyn{Wolf}> 17 years
[12:58] <Bugs42`> ok, I've been in this for about 15 years all as a Dom
[12:58] * Ladymist agrees with aniles
[12:58] <SirWolf> 2 yrs
[12:58] <raven{Az}> well said and I agree aniles.. :)
[12:58] <_mizu_> ummm jezzz, 11 i think
[12:59] <windchime> on & off....15 yrs with more intensity the past 4
[12:59] * ananda` is 39, experience is fairly wide...real life submissive to Roamer
[12:59] * intoit{N} 10+
[12:59] * raven{Az} smiles..seems to me we have a good range of experience here.. I like that
[12:59] <raven{Az}> so..nuts and bolts time..
[12:59] <raven{Az}> what are some areas of the body that should not be hit?
[12:59] * aniles` is 26, naturally sub for her whole life, Aware of the terms for about four years, but started in what could only be identified as a D/s relationship at least 7 years ago.
[13:00] * Roamer`` 's experience is also fairly wide, but has taken on another level with ananda{R}
[13:00] <Ladymist> inside of joints....anywhere where veins are close to the surface
[13:00] * ananda` raises her hand
[13:00] <intoit{N}> kidney area backs of the knees
[13:00] <raven{Az}> ananda?
[13:00] <ananda`> neck, kidney area, joints
[13:00] <Bugs42`> Thanks everyone, a lot of experience
[13:00] <_mizu_> neck, to many places to cause damage in one spot
[13:00] * Ladymist winces at the thought of kidneys
[13:00] * chensay grins ...spleen
[13:01] <raven{Az}> stomach..belly
[13:01] <raven{Az}> genitals..carefully!!!!
[13:01] * _mizu_ bow's to MsDMeanr saying, "greetings"
[13:01] <Ladymist> neck
[13:01] <Roamer``> <---------- is also lagging like a good 'un
[13:02] <Bugs42`> to me other than face, it depends on the sub.
[13:02] <Ladymist> hello 'S"
[13:02] <chensay> hello *grin*
[13:02] * Nymph giggles as she thinks of the Domming she did in a Vanilla relationship, and did not even realize what she was doing
[13:02] <intoit{N}> greetings MrsDmeanie...LOL
[13:02] <raven{Az}> Isn't the lower back and kidney's dangerous to hit?
[13:02] <raven{Az}> and depends..how??
[13:02] <raven{Az}> weight?
[13:02] <raven{Az}> muscle content?
[13:02] <Nymph> yes raven, and any bony prominence too
[13:02] <Ladymist> very dangerous...
[13:03] <raven{Az}> but doen't that resitrict one's playing areas
[13:03] <raven{Az}> ?
[13:03] <Nymph> necks are bad areas, too
[13:03] <_mizu_> with hard object's yes
[13:03] <intoit{N}> not at all gf
[13:03] <raven{Az}> I agree mizu..with hard objects..
[13:03] <raven{Az}> I think it depends more on what is being used, the strength behind the blow, the structure of the sub..etc..
[13:03] <Nymph> you can play anywhere, have to watch the intensity...is all
[13:04] <_mizu_> soft toy's are safe most places
[13:04] <Bugs42`> I just find it hard to say anything is hard and fast in this area, some variables in person and severything
[13:04] <raven{Az}> agreed mizu.. :)
[13:04] * ananda` was about to say the same Bugs....that many variances with us subs....
[13:04] <raven{Az}> I've used soft floggers on the kidney area..no damage..soft blows..all for "pleasure" sensation..not pain play
[13:04] <chensay> welcome back Mistress
[13:04] <_mizu_> Marisha had diffrent weight's of flogger's for use in diffrent areas
[13:04] <aniles`> True raven, the "onion grass" that Master I have been playing with could be used almost anywhere, it mostly affects the skin, can turn it red with out injuring underlaying structures.
[13:04] <Bugs42`> exactly, no one is the same and everyone HAS to talk
[13:05] <intoit{N}> that is the key veriable what is safe for me may be past anothers limits
[13:05] <ananda`> excellent point intoit
[13:05] * intoit{N} looks at Mistress
[13:06] <raven{Az}> EXACTLY!!!!
[13:06] <anand{R}> geesh, cant spell either
[13:06] * _mizu_ giggles
[13:06] <Nymph> I have been teaching intoit to realize that the back can be used to gain pleasure, he is getting used to the idea, but I certainly use lesser strength in doing this than when I flog his ass
[13:06] <raven{Az}> that's what I was looking for..what is safe for one isn't safe for others..
[13:07] * raven{Az} loves flogging on the shoulders..mid back..lightly lower back (depending on condition of my back..) thighs..butt..etc..
[13:07] * ananda{R} nods
[13:07] <raven{Az}> in general though, for those just starting..what areas are best avoided?
[13:07] <aniles`> which is why the dynamics of the relationship come into play and discussion and trust
[13:07] <raven{Az}> yes aniles.. :)
[13:07] * ananda{R} only finds pleasure from a flogger on my upper back
[13:08] * Ladymist loves back..but DON"T hit the lower portions....unless you want me to freak...LOL
[13:08] <ananda{R}> I am the same Ladymist
[13:08] <Nymph> I have also used the cane effectively, and when it was introduced, he almost balked as he did not know that I could bring as much pleasure to him as I did
[13:09] <intoit{N}> not my back but my ass and thighs and legs
[13:09] <Ladymist> good for you! 'looking @ Nymph
[13:09] <Nymph> but to attempt the cane on his back...forget it ....he could not tolerate it
[13:09] * aniles` hasn't been caned, not sure about that one... *you go intoit!*
[13:09] * chensay hasnt been caned either
[13:10] <intoit{N}> with the proper teachings you could learn to like it
[13:10] <raven{Az}> caning is something I've wanted to try..but I don't know if I would find pleasure in it or not..
[13:10] <Bugs42`> in general a beginning person, I would stay away from genitals, breast, lower back and of course the head
[13:10] <intoit{N}> i look for ward to it ...cept for punishment(
[13:11] * ananda{R} has witnessed plenty of canings...you gotta have a tuff backside for it I think!
[13:11] <raven{Az}> I think a cane would have to be a punishment item for me bf..from the few things I've been struck with that are similar to a cane, the pain is too high for me at this point
[13:11] <Nymph> if you had the proper teacher you could get pleasure from it...trust me ...
[13:11] * cyn{Wolf} agrees with ana
[13:11] <raven{Az}> I do trust you Ma'an..where do you think I got the idea to allow myself to "wonder" about it? <giggle>
[13:11] <aniles`> Hmmm, in the punishment realm I think an important thing is for a Dom/Master/Top to be in control of their emotions before begining.
[13:11] <Bugs42`> and my blows would be light to moderate... but we would talk a whole lot
[13:11] * MsDMeanr turns to raven and smiles, listening quietly
[13:12] <Nymph> then the person yielding the "cane-like" objecct did not know how to use it effectively
[13:12] <raven{Az}> ok..this brings us to punishment.. :)
[13:12] <raven{Az}> That doesn't surprise me Nymph..he couldn't stay away from my scar either.. LOL
[13:13] <Nymph> I know you trust me...
[13:14] <raven{Az}> OK..back to talking..ready all?
[13:15] <raven{Az}> we've come around to punishment..which is entirely different than pleasure..
[13:15] <raven{Az}> so..should a safeword be allowed during punishment?
[13:15] <windchime> lol..i've already said i don't believe so
[13:16] <chensay> i think yes, but i dont think a sub would use it...
[13:16] <Ladymist> agreed
[13:16] <windchime> but punishment isn't supposed to be pleasurable
[13:16] <intoit{N}> this is where trust is instilled
[13:16] <aniles`> No, a safe word should not be allowed during punishment, but it is also not the time to try and push well established limits either. I believe that Master Knows what works as a punishment and doesn't need to try something previously untried
[13:17] <Nymph> I think a safe word is just that.....to be used for safety....in punishment or in play....when one reaches his limits....to continue would be detrimental to both parties
[13:17] <raven{Az}> I agree with what you say aniles..
[13:17] <Ladymist> I agree with Nymph
[13:18] <raven{Az}> for me, I don't believe a safe word should be used in punishment..
[13:18] <Nymph> thanks Ladymist, I trust intoit enuff to know he would not use a safe word unless something is seriously wrong
[13:18] <intoit{N}> for me i feel if a safeword is there it no longer is punishment
[13:18] <raven{Az}> it isn't supposed to be for pleasure..but I do agree that one should be allowed in the case that there is something wrong..
[13:18] <raven{Az}> seriously wrong..not just used out of fear for being punished ..
[13:19] <Ladymist> I think a subbie would not use a safe during punishment unless thers WAS something seriously wrong
[13:19] * chensay agrees with Lady Mist
[13:19] <MsDMeanr> and one must always consider whether or not the "crime" is worth loosing ones submissive's trust over. If you push the limit, or the sumbissive gets in trouble and cannot safe out, the trust is damaged, and the relationship suffers. Personally, there is nothing he could do that is a "punishable offense" that is worth that. I always allow a safeword in punishment, providing he knows if he uses it, he better have a REALLY good reason.
[13:19] <aniles`> I believe if I were ever Seriously in danger I would probably use it, or say something that would indicate how serious it was, but I don't forsee that as an outcome of a punishment
[13:19] <intoit{N}> one does not know me at times...lol
[13:20] * raven{Az} pauses to read
[13:20] * Ladymist applauds MsDM
[13:20] <raven{Az}> Well said MsD!! I agree with that..
[13:20] * aniles` has to have a damn good reason for safeing during play....
[13:20] * chensay grins.... good one MsD
[13:20] <Nymph> if i were punishing intoit for something...he knows that if he uses a safe word he has to explain it and it had better be for a good reason....
[13:21] <intoit{N}> this is true
[13:22] <Ladymist> should subbies always explain and discuss safe situations?
[13:22] <intoit{N}> better not be for a whimp out
[13:22] <Ladymist> a situation where they used their safeword
[13:22] <Nymph> nice way of saying it MsD....what I was attempting to say
[13:22] <Myrical> I believe that they should
[13:22] <intoit{N}> yes
[13:22] <MsDMeanr> define "safe situations", please
[13:22] * aniles` has to, how else does the Dom/me know how to work around it in the future
[13:22] <Ladymist> I think so too....at least I know i have to...and I require it...
[13:22] <chensay> true
[13:23] <Nymph> if they safe out ...yes or how else is the Dom/me to know what not to do at a later session, be it punishment or play
[13:23] <Ladymist> MsDM: a situation where a subbie had to safeowrd out...
[13:23] <MsDMeanr> what you are asking is if a submissive should always explain why they used their safeword? or should they discuss previously situations when they may use it?
[13:23] <MsDMeanr> got it
[13:23] * MsDMeanr nods
[13:23] <MsDMeanr> what Nymph said!
[13:23] * MsDMeanr laughs
[13:23] <raven{Az}> I believe so yes LM..ANY use of a safeword should be discussed..it helps the participants learn
[13:24] * cyn{Wolf} has a question
[13:24] <raven{Az}> go ahead cyn..
[13:24] <cyn{Wolf}> safewords out because of emotional or physical reasons? or does that matter?
[13:24] * chensay listens curiously
[13:24] <intoit{N}> both
[13:24] <aniles`> I think either should be discussed.
[13:24] <Ladymist> doesn't matter to Master...both have to be discussed
[13:24] <Nymph> does not matter I think cyn{W} it should be discussed
[13:24] <raven{Az}> it matters..and definitely should have been discuess..
[13:25] <Myrical> It would be because of both
[13:25] * Ladymist looks at cyn....
[13:25] <raven{Az}> discussed even
[13:26] <Nymph> I think it all goes back to trusting your Dom/me and trusting your subbie.....first and foremost
[13:26] * ananda{R} nods
[13:26] <Roamer``> indeed Nymph, but that can only come with discussion
[13:26] <raven{Az}> yes..trust does play a major role in everything with BdSM..
[13:26] <Bugs42`> trust has to be the basis and doing a lot of talking
[13:27] <intoit{N}> if it is not discussed you have crulity
[13:27] <raven{Az}> agreed bf..
[13:27] <Myrical> dragon: either/or both....doesnt really matter....it's a good reason either way....if the sub doesnt feel comfortable then they should safe out then discuss why they did
[13:27] <raven{Az}> but this brings in Play partners..
[13:27] <Nymph> exactly what I have been saying all along
[13:27] <raven{Az}> what about those who are just playing once in a while..but not in a ongoing relationship..what safety measures should they take prior to play?
[13:27] <Myrical> dragon: but after the situation has calmed down
[13:27] <aniles`> When should the discussion take place? Immeadiately? or should time be taken to deal with other things first, such as cooling off, coming down...
[13:27] <raven{Az}> well said dragn!
[13:27] <raven{Az}> depends on the situation aniles..
[13:27] <Nymph> if a sub does not feel comfortable, then the sub and Master need to back up and work on trusting ...
[13:28] <intoit{N}> it shouls START immeditly
[13:28] <Myrical> aniles` it should take place after cooling down
[13:28] <Bugs42`> I like the idea of immediate talk with follow up talks
[13:28] <raven{Az}> not always bf..sometimes it may need to cool down first..
[13:28] <aniles`> Play partners is another realm altogether, I would imagine Safe words would be a requirement
[13:28] <Nymph> one I think can not discuss anything cognitively until after both parties have cooled off
[13:28] <intoit{N}> it needs to start immediate
[13:28] <MsDMeanr> I use a 4 word system. . . .red-stop, yellow-slow, green-OOOOH GOODNESS I LIKE THAT!, and blue-stop for emotional reasons. . . .the reason I use blue <and red will get a stop every time> is that if the emotional reason is one we have discussed before <Vietnam Vet and he has a flash back> I KNOW what to do immediately! does that make sense?
[13:28] <raven{Az}> if it's a panic situation..say the sub had something triggered like old memories of abuse..then definitely cooling down must happen before discussion can take place
[13:29] <raven{Az}> yes MsD!! I was going to raise that point!!
[13:29] <Nymph> but should not wait for longer than a few minutes....
[13:29] <Ladymist> likes the concept of blue
[13:29] <Myrical> dragon: I dont think that it should take immediatley b/c the sub needs the time to find the words
[13:29] <windchime> woudln't it depend on how emotional both were at the time?
[13:30] <ananda{R}> sounds like it would depend on the individual couple as to what is best
[13:30] * aniles` nods, I think a brief explanation can take place immeadiately, even if it is just to indicate that it is emotional or physical, but especially with emotional, sometimes just a "hold me" session is better immeadiatly...
[13:30] <raven{Az}> good point windchime..
[13:30] <cyn{Wolf}> the one and only time I used a safeword was because of a flashback, and I couldn't be touched..but He thought He had physically hurt me..that is why I asked the question
[13:30] <intoit{N}> yes
[13:31] <intoit{N}> that is called accknowlagement
[13:31] <Myrical> That is true aniles
[13:31] <raven{Az}> in that situation cyn a cool down would be needed..
[13:31] <raven{Az}> well said aniles.. :)
[13:31] <aniles`> ok for intoit, red=stop yellow=slow "oooooohhhhhhhh"=go...
[13:31] * raven{Az} tosses this out
[13:31] <raven{Az}> sub space..
[13:31] <intoit{N}> LOL
[13:31] * Ladymist perks up
[13:31] <raven{Az}> most subs can't think, many can't talk while in sub space..so how does one safe out?[13:31] * chensay listens
[13:31] <Ladymist> what about subspace?
[13:32] * raven{Az} can't talk, think, or anything else if far enough into sub space..
[13:32] <Ladymist> ohhhh....that is where trust is EVERYTHING
[13:32] * raven{Az} can only feel..<g>
[13:32] <aniles`> I don't imagine that I would be inclined to safe out in sub space....
[13:32] <intoit{N}> it is better than Calgon take me away
[13:32] <raven{Az}> yes bf!!
[13:32] <raven{Az}> but if a dom hits wrong for example, and the sub is in sub space, she doesn't feel it..what happens then?
[13:32] <raven{Az}> who's responsibiliyt is it ?
[13:32] * Ladymist can only feel too...
[13:32] <ananda{R}> I think when you are in your subspace it is more important than ever for hte Dom to know your body language
[13:33] <Myrical> dragon: If in subspace some kind of movement of the body should be discussed before hand
[13:33] * raven{Az} hits upon safety being the sub's responsibiliyt by removing the consciousness of the sub
[13:33] <ananda{R}> I have never been that far into supspace that I did not remember the safe words
[13:33] <Myrical> dragon: If the Dom/me is observent and knows His/Her partner well enough then He/She would know
[13:34] <MsDMeanr> thank you, sweeting
[13:34] <ananda{R}> I have had a Dom remind me and Master willa sk me how things are sometimes
[13:34] <Ladymist> agreed
[13:34] <Bugs42`> question, when in sub space, do you think? are you cognitive enough to drop something in your hand, to safe out?
[13:34] <intoit{N}> now the pain becomes an aphrodiziac
[13:34] <Ladymist> .me is not cognitive enough
[13:34] <ananda{R}> good pain certainly is all of that intoit
[13:34] <aniles`> at that point (subspace) the responsibility is the Dom's... but it is the responsibility of the sub to not put herself in a position to go to space with someone she doesn't have that level of trust with
[13:34] <raven{Az}> well said ananda..yes body language knowledge is important
[13:34] <intoit{N}> no not in the least
[13:34] <ananda{R}> good point aniles
[13:35] <windchime> i can't achieve subspace if i don't completely trust my partner because of that reason
[13:35] <raven{Az}> I have ananda..where I didn't even know what time it was, where I was or anything..I could only feel..
[13:35] <raven{Az}> not always Bugs..(to the drop something question)
[13:35] <Ladymist> I can't either
[13:35] <ananda{R}> me either windchime, trust is part of getting into subspace
[13:35] <Myrical> dragon: most of the time I think you could....but you should have a back up to that...such as some kind of body movement
[13:35] <raven{Az}> well said aniles.. :)
[13:35] <aniles`> I don't think I could HOLD ON to something in space... hehehe.
[13:36] <MsDMeanr> I talk with a submissive all through a scene. . .checking in often. . . .but I also find it a very responsible place to be, and as such, I tend to not play at this level until I know the body language of the submissive I am playing with.
[13:36] <raven{Az}> for me, holding onto to something when I enter subspace..wouldn't count for a safe word..because my figners automatically tighten around the object and just hold on for dear life and I have no clue if there is anything in my hand..
[13:36] <raven{Az}> well said MsD
[13:36] <Bugs42`> so di I MsD, I talk constantly
[13:36] <Myrical> dragon: Would it be good to have more than one way to safe out???
[13:37] <raven{Az}> what if the sub can't answer?
[13:37] <Nymph> I dont talk constantly, but I check him often
[13:39] <MsDMeanr> mmmm constantly as in the 3 to 5 hours of play time include a LOT of conversation. . .not *stroke* "you ok?" *stroke* "you ok?" *stroke* "you ok?" . . .etc.
[13:39] * aniles` listens for "green green green gre...."
[13:39] <chensay> lol
[13:39] <ananda{R}> k
[13:39] <windchime> i hate to be spoken to when i'm in space
[13:40] <MsDMeanr> and, simply for clarification. . .green is used when something is REALLY working for him, and he wants more, but can't articulate that into words. . . . .I have heard him use it twice.
[13:40] <aniles`> I don't mind being spoken to, just don't like to have to reply...
[13:40] <Myrical> dragon: Was my question too hard...or did nobody see it??
[13:40] <Ladymist> I don't like to reply but like to hear that everything is ok....
[13:40] <Ladymist> brings me down gently
[13:40] <Ladymist> I don't think I saw it...
[13:40] <aniles`> exactly Ladyn=mist
[13:40] <ananda{R}> I think I missed the questino dragon, mind repeating?
[13:41] <aniles`> oppp... Ladymist even
[13:41] <Myrical> dragon: Would it be good to have more than one way to safe out???
[13:41] <ananda{R}> you menamore than one safe word?
[13:41] <aniles`> If it is a word, and they are gagged, then yes
[13:41] <Roamer``> no pet, more than one way
[13:41] <raven{Az}> yes it would..
[13:41] <Nymph> that would be between you and your partner Myrical
[13:41] <Roamer``> like a body movement or such
[13:41] <ananda{R}> most deffo!
[13:42] <Bugs42`> I think there needs to be more than one way, a verbal and a physical
[13:42] <raven{Az}> I agree Bugs..
[13:42] * Roamer`` agrees with Bugs
[13:42] <Myrical> dragon: No I meant like if there was like say .....too have a safe word...and also something like dropping something or a movement
[13:42] * ananda{R} definitely agrees
[13:43] <in2space> i did not see it
[13:43] <MsDMeanr> I did not see it, Myrical
[13:43] <Myrical> I agree with Bugs
[13:43] <Bugs42`> exactly dragon... I meant dropping a small stick as the physical
[13:43] <raven{Az}> I agree dragn, there should be a safeword for those times when the sub can't be verbal..like when they are gagged
[13:44] <raven{Az}> though..that's usually dropping something..or whatever
[13:44] <Myrical> dragon: Can anyone ever be to safe???
[13:44] <raven{Az}> I think so dragn..
[13:44] <MsDMeanr> When I play I remind them that if I don't stop or change when they safeword, it is because I did not hear them, and to scream it out. . . .But there is a lot of trust there. If there is a gag in place, or another reason they cannot verbalize, I have a lil dog ball, rubber with a bell inside, and they simply rattle that.
[13:44] <raven{Az}> when one gets caged in by fear of hurting someone..they lose that element of "danger" that is so exciting to many of us..
[13:45] <raven{Az}> good one MsD :)
[13:45] <raven{Az}> they lose the ability to try something different.. or new..their imagination stagnates..
[13:45] <raven{Az}> so yeah..one can be too safe..
[13:45] <MsDMeanr> well, then it is a 2 way system. . .either drop it, or rattle it.
[13:45] <Myrical> Can there be a third way...such as a particular movement
[13:46] <raven{Az}> I don't know if I'd agree with a body movement..many people move alot when theyre aroused..so it would be difficult to discern a safe movement from something else..
[13:46] <Bugs42`> yes, you can be too safe, you can worry things to death and be so careful that there is no longer and elemnet of excitement
[13:46] <MsDMeanr> I agree, raven. . . if you get so many safewords/motions/etc., then the dominant spends all of her/his time checkin' the safewords and none relaxing and havin' fun!
[13:46] <Myrical> dragon: I have been to the point that I couldnt feel my hands and I had something in my hands but I couldnt drop it...and I was gagged so what else could have I done??
[13:46] <intoit{N}> shudder the thought gf
[13:47] <raven{Az}> exactly MsD
[13:47] <aniles`> if you are worrying that much then how much trust could there be?
[13:47] <raven{Az}> it may not be just because of trust aniles..it could come from all the people pushing safety safety safety!
[13:47] <raven{Az}> the power of what others say is quite strong..
[13:47] <intoit{N}> only if one is commanded not to move
[13:48] <intoit{N}> but in subspace you lose that prespective
[13:48] <aniles`> Myrical: if you couldn't feel your hands, then was the Top checking for good circulation and such?
[13:48] <raven{Az}> yes you do bf..
[13:48] <Myrical> that was dragons question
[13:48] <raven{Az}> probably not..but in that case, shouldn't the sub say "I can't feel my hands?"
[13:48] <Myrical> She was gagged gf
[13:49] <aniles`> she said she was gagged.. hehehe
[13:49] <raven{Az}> ok..was a safeword given for that situation?
[13:49] <raven{Az}> was the sub nervous? new scene?
[13:49] <ananda{R}> if you tie someone up, you are responsible to constantly check for that type of safety issue I think
[13:51] <Myrical> Myrical and dragon are at the same computer we are both here.....Just to let you know
[13:52] <raven{Az}> If I remember correctly..this situation makes a case in point for sub space and safewords..
[13:52] <raven{Az}> also brings in..new sensations, fear, nervousness..and subbie pride
[13:52] * raven{Az} looks at the clock..my gosh..2 hours already??
End
[12:24] <raven{Az}> Today is our second discussion.. I hope everyone had good holidays and wish to say Happy New Year to you all
[12:24] <raven{Az}> Our first discussion covered "learning the lifestyle"...it went well from my point of view.. <giggle> (but I'm biased..<g>)
[12:25] <raven{Az}> I decided to hold off until after the holidays before holding our second one..as well, we are trying a new time so that those who are "across the pond" so to speak can attend as well..
[12:26] <raven{Az}> Todays topic is Safety in general..I expect to be touching upon safety tips, safe sane consensual, and many other things regarding safety..
[12:27] <raven{Az}> This will be taken the same way the other one was, question and answer..please feel free to toss out a question for all to answer, or your own personal experience..
[12:27] <raven{Az}> For those who do not know, the rules for these discussions are as follows:
[12:27] <raven{Az}> 1: Be polite..no flaming wil be tolerated..you can state disagreement of an "idea" but not the person making them..
[12:28] <raven{Az}> 2: take turns..
[12:28] <raven{Az}> that's it really..just basically..play nice :)
[12:29] <raven{Az}> Any questions at all before we begin?
[12:29] <Ladymist> Not here 'S'
[12:30] * raven{Az} smiles..good.. :)
[12:30] <raven{Az}> then we shall begin..<giggle>
[12:30] * chensay smiles
[12:30] <raven{Az}> How does one learn safety measures to take during play>?
[12:31] <Bugs42`> most of it seems to be common sense, but it is best to ask questions
[12:31] * Ladymist looking sround waiting for someone else to go first....
[12:31] <raven{Az}> ask questions where Bugs?
[12:32] <_mizu_> humm, have no idea, never ran into that before
[12:32] <Ladymist> From the Dominant training you?
[12:32] <raven{Az}> that's one place yes LM :)
[12:32] <Ladymist> that's where I learned
[12:32] <raven{Az}> but not all dominants are trained by other dominants..so where would one that isn't being "trained" seek information?
[12:33] * ananda{R} read lots of books and would not play at a particular thing until I was well educated on the safety precautions as before I became owned, felt I was responsible for my safety
[12:33] <raven{Az}> aniles, question on the table is where does one learn about safety measures to be taken during play..
[12:33] <intoit{N}> Toaboth parties need to ask... wants desires expectations limits???
[12:33] <Bugs42`> and as far as questions, I meant ask each other, see what is comfortable with the other
[12:33] <raven{Az}> excellent ananda..and you raise a good point..a submissive is responsible for his/her own safety..
[12:34] <Ladymist> agreed...
[12:34] <windchime> asking questions of others that have more experience is always a good place to start
[12:34] * ananda{R} nods
[12:34] <ananda{R}> good idea windchime
[12:34] <raven{Az}> yes windchime.. :)
[12:34] <aniles`> I think submissive is responsible for where she puts her trust.
[12:34] <intoit{N}> both parties share the responsability
[12:34] * raven{Az} nods..
[12:34] <Ladymist> that too...'S"
[12:34] <intoit{N}> it is like raising a child
[12:34] <raven{Az}> both parties share the responsibility..true intoit very true..
[12:34] <ananda{R}> Master and I agree on limits before we "play"
[12:34] <ananda{R}> and we clearly have our safety words defined
[12:35] <raven{Az}> At any time should a safeword not be used?
[12:35] <windchime> limits change as you grow to know someone though
[12:35] <Bugs42`> I agree that both parties share the responsibility, but it is the subs because they are at the mercy of the other
[12:35] <intoit{N}> but what if those are exceeded??
[12:36] <Ladymist> I think safewords should always be there...but I cannever remember mine when I need it...and have to trust Master not to go too far....
[12:36] <ananda{R}> it is in my contract with my Master that safewords will always be acknowledged
[12:36] <raven{Az}> umm..isn't it the dom's responsibility to keep to the limits since the sub is at his/her mercy?
[12:36] <_mizu_> i would not say so Sir, a good Dom need's to know the sub and their reactions
[12:36] <windchime> i don't know if i agree with safewords being used in punishment
[12:36] <windchime> but then, i've never had punishment go farther than it was supposed to
[12:36] <Ladymist> but how would growth take place if the 'limits were not challenged....
[12:36] <aniles`> hmmmm, good question. What do you do if they are exceeded. I don't know, I have never really been in that situation. I suppose that is where a safe word could come in to play.
[12:36] <Bugs42`> yes, it is the Doms responsibility not to exceed and it is te subs to ensure that the Dom knows and understand s the limits
[12:37] <intoit{N}> now you have entered another domain
[12:37] <_mizu_> Marisha had a good idea of how far i could go just by watching my saber and kendo training
[12:37] <raven{Az}> I agree BUgs..
[12:38] <aniles`> Limits can be expanded on best when they are discussed in advance, if you are pushing a limit, both should be aware of the limit and the plan to push it.
[12:38] <raven{Az}> in a relationship that has been going on for a long period of time, safewords tend to fall out of use..simple because the participants know each other so well..
[12:38] <_mizu_> she had a hard time even getting close to the level of them in play
[12:38] <Ladymist> of course...
[12:38] <raven{Az}> I understand that mizu.. :)
[12:38] <raven{Az}> I agree with windchime..I personally don't use a safeword during a punishment..
[12:39] * ananda` nods in agreement with raven....learning eachother's body language
[12:39] * _mizu_ giggles
[12:39] <raven{Az}> but..thats a different arena than play..
[12:39] <intoit{N}> if you did it would not be punishment gf
[12:39] <windchime> true, but you asked if there was ever a time safewords should not be used <g>
[12:40] * raven{Az} returns
[12:40] <raven{Az}> yes I did windchime.. :)
[12:40] <ananda`> Master does not believe in corporal punishment, so I cannot speak on that one
[12:40] <Bugs42`> that is the only time i can think of, otherwise I think they should always be in place just in case
[12:40] <_mizu_> not realy raven, a cane dose just as much damage as a saber blade, got more injuries from saber bruies and cut's than play
[12:41] <raven{Az}> I can imagine mizu.. :)
[12:41] <chensay> i think a subbie who is in trouble wouldnt use a safeword if she did have it during punishment, to try to appease/please her Dom/me..but still feel safe knowing she HAS one
[12:41] * Ladymist shivers at the thought of a saber...
[12:42] <raven{Az}> exactly chensay..I call that "subbie pride"..<giggle>
[12:42] * chensay grins
[12:42] <Ladymist> LOL...agreed
[12:42] <SirWolf> grins at the thought of a saber
[12:42] <raven{Az}> many feel guilty or somehow "less" because they safe out..should a sub feel that way if the safe word was used properly in a situation where it was neccessary?
[12:42] <Ladymist> and too much subbie pride...
[12:42] * _mizu_ giggles
[12:42] * aniles` wouldn't use a safe word during punishment (even if she were allowed to), now begging, crying and such... well that may be a different subject
[12:42] <SirWolf> no never
[12:42] <raven{Az}> agreed aniles..I'm the same way..would only use one if my back forced me to
[12:42] <Ladymist> But we do
[12:42] <ananda`> probably not, raven, but I am guilty of that
[12:43] <raven{Az}> I think all subs are guilty of that..I know I am..
[12:43] <Ladymist> every time I have safed..the emotional fall out was worse than I think the physical stuuf would have been
[12:43] <ananda`> yes, because we want to please our Master more than anything, that we sometimes deny ourselves
[12:43] * aniles` nods
[12:43] * Ladymist nods
[12:43] <raven{Az}> You're right SirWolf, a sub shouldn't feel guilty..is it possible the guilt feelings come from having it hammered into them that a sub should take everything the dom dishes out? and it's all for the dom's pleasure..etc??
[12:44] <raven{Az}> exactly LM..I tear myself apart when/if I have to safe..which has only been twice in my life..
[12:44] <Ladymist> I have never felt like it was all for my///the Dom/mes pleasure
[12:44] <Bugs42`> ok, now about this subbie pride and not "safing" out, how do you feel when your Master feels bad because you were injured?
[12:44] <windchime> sometimes i've been close to safing...but i don't because i want to see how much farther i can go
[12:44] * ananda` nods in agreement with raven,,,,you have an excellent point there
[12:44] * Ladymist empathesizes...
[12:45] * Ladymist has never been injured so she can't comment
[12:45] <raven{Az}> you're lucky LM..one of the biggest thing I have heard people telling others is everything is for the dom completely..and I think this has something to do with the increasing subbie guilt..
[12:45] <raven{Az}> I feel like crap Bugs..but I've never been in that situation..thank gosh..
[12:45] * cyn{Wolf} feels guilty if i am injured
[12:45] <_mizu_> Marisha was usualy more mad at me for getting injuries out of play, "you take to many chances, how am i ever going to keep you in line when the pain is not there?"
[12:46] <Ladymist> it does increase guilt...and that is a crime...the play is ALWAYS for mutual pleasure
[12:46] <raven{Az}> windchime, you bring a good point there..seeing how far one can go..I agree that this happens alot..wanting to find where one's limits are..
[12:46] * ananda` agrees with Ladymist and Master reminds me of that always that if I don't derive pleasure, it is not pleasure for him
[12:46] <aniles`> Plus, you have to look at it from the view point that if you are injured badly, you will be unable to perform well for your Master.. so safe-ing out is not always a bad thing, when warrented
[12:46] <raven{Az}> good points.. :)
[12:46] <SirWolf> again your talking bout 2 diffrent areas,,,,play and punishment!!
[12:47] <raven{Az}> yes..I'm taking play first..we'll hit on punishment in a few.. :)
[12:47] <Ladymist> doesn't matter...injuries can happen in either arena
[12:47] <raven{Az}> Does the ability to safe out give the sub power or control?
[12:47] <Nymph> I agree with SirWolf play is definately different from punishment
[12:47] <ananda`> no, I think it gives him/her responsibility for him/herself
[12:47] <intoit{N}> absolutly
[12:48] * chensay agrees with ananda
[12:48] <Ladymist> I don't think so....just a safety net
[12:48] <_mizu_> only if they use it to their advantage
[12:48] <raven{Az}> ummm..but ananda, isn't that responsibiity supposed to be the dom's by virtue of the pwoer exchange?
[12:48] <raven{Az}> I agree mizu :)
[12:48] <SirWolf> and you can be hurt in both
[12:48] <Bugs42`> yes, it does give te sub some control, but only in terms of safety
[12:48] <raven{Az}> so that would be a agreed upon control then?
[12:48] <Nymph> I guess I think the subbies control the scene more than they are given credit for
[12:48] <ananda`> not according to my Master, he taught me that I am responsible to help him learn my limits and responsible to say yellow when it is right.
[12:48] <Ladymist> supposed to be the Dom/mes...but accidents can happen
[12:48] <aniles`> I think so many things are dependent on the dynamics of the relationship, the knowledge of each other and the trust that has been built.
[12:49] <chensay> the Dom/me is also trusting the sub to let Her know whether something is really wrong... so it can be corrected and worked through...
[12:49] * intoit{N} watshes the meanings of words weave together
[12:49] <raven{Az}> I agree Nymph..and what if the sub doesn't want that control?
[12:49] <raven{Az}> can't one tell the dom something is wrong without ending teh scene? wouldn't saying "the cuff is too tight" be just as effective?
[12:49] <Nymph> then they are not truly a sub...they then become a slave and the to me is entirely different
[12:49] <raven{Az}> <--- playing devil's advocate..so please don't tear my head off.. :)
[12:49] * chensay giggles
[12:49] <chensay> yes
[12:50] <aniles`> Yes, and to think about it, that is the route we usually take, Master and I, "that's too tight" or whatever.
[12:50] <Ladymist> I never expect a safe over a tigh cuff....I expect to hear that the cuff if too tight
[12:50] <ananda`> lol raven, guess maybe we could talk about use of the safewrods red, yellow etc?
[12:50] <raven{Az}> me to aniles.. :)
[12:50] <aniles`> and that has never been a problem
[12:50] <raven{Az}> Problem here LM is, that many think ANYTHING remotely "wrong" requires a safe word..and they use it for those things..
[12:50] <raven{Az}> fostering the belief that sub's safe out when they really don't have to..
[12:50] <Nymph> it is effective here...if intoit is not getting pleasure, then we go to something different so we both are getting the pleasure that we both crave
[12:50] * chensay giggles... the cuff is too tight... and i think my spleen is bruised... are two different levels of something is wrong
[12:50] <ananda`> good point raven
[12:51] * _mizu_ giggles
[12:51] <raven{Az}> I'm making the point that telling the dominant a cuff is too tight, isn't a safe..it's information to keep the scene pleasurable and safe for both
[12:51] <raven{Az}> LOL chensay..good point!
[12:51] * ananda` nods
[12:51] <Bugs42`> in my thinking, the safe word is used only for ending the scene, cuffs too tight etc, should be mentioned
[12:51] <raven{Az}> saying my spleen is bruised..well..END scene!!
[12:51] <raven{Az}> exactly Bugs..:)
[12:51] <_mizu_> "honn, please put the I bolt back in the WALL!" Marisha
[12:51] <aniles`> Ok, what if durring a flogging (or similar scene) the sub feels the Dom is unaware of where the blows are actually landing? for instance a flogger wrapping.
[12:52] <ananda`> thus, the importance of clearly defining your safewords before beginning a scene
[12:52] <Nymph> not true raven, if the sub can not speak for themselves, and tell one the cuff is too tight then that is a major problem and the subbie in question needs to learn "trust"
[12:52] <raven{Az}> agreed Nymph..
[12:53] <raven{Az}> then the sub should speak up aniles..and say something aobut it..
[12:53] <Nymph> again aniles, the subbie must trust that the Dom/me will adjust when they tell you something is wrong....
[12:53] <raven{Az}> it may not mean the scene has to end..
[12:53] <windchime> that's a tough one, aniles...because then you are also throwing doubt on the ability of
[12:53] <Nymph> but it should not ever come to a bruised spleen or anything else
[12:53] * raven{Az} thinks she's being misunderstood
[12:53] <aniles`> I have to admit, I have a hard time pointing something like this out, I feel as though I am "grading" Master's performance.
[12:54] <windchime> the person yielding the flogger...or at least some would view it that way
[12:54] <Ladymist> me too
[12:54] <raven{Az}> I agree aniles..I have a hard time pointing it out also..I usually wait until afterwards..unless the wrapping hits more than once..
[12:54] <windchime> i think we all do
[12:54] * Ladymist 's Master thinks comments about flogger techinique is 'topping from the bottom'
[12:54] <Nymph> I disagree, for intoit has spoke many times, when the problem occurs is the time to speak up, or major injury may occur
[12:54] <raven{Az}> So in the case of limits and stuff..wouldn't discussing the scene after it's over help both parties to see what was right and what could have been better?
[12:54] <intoit{N}> the third time usally does it to/for me
[12:55] <raven{Az}> I don't think it's topping frm the bottom..that's different..
[12:55] <_mizu_> yes raven, it is always good to do that
[12:55] <raven{Az}> I agree mizu :)
[12:55] <Ladymist> but thankfully He is so proficcient....it doesn't happen often..
[12:55] <windchime> but many see it that way, Raven
[12:56] <raven{Az}> they do windchime, and that is sad..
[12:56] <raven{Az}> I don't see anything wrong with a sub telling a dom.."umm I prefer not to have the tips of the flogger snap on my belly." or smething like that
[12:57] <Bugs42`> I know this is slightly off, but I was just curious about the experince level of everyone
[12:57] <windchime> but could you do it in the middle of the scene?
[12:57] <windchime> i don't think i could
[12:57] <raven{Az}> Ohh..good question Bugs.. :)
[12:57] <Ladymist> I couldn't either...
[12:57] <Bugs42`> that might help in figuring out who is new
[12:57] <ananda`> good idea bugs
[12:57] <aniles`> I have difficulty on discerning intentional acts from unintentional ones in a scene, which is why I prefer to either discuss details before (which is sometimes easier said than done) or to have verbalization from Master during.
[12:57] <chensay> very very new :)
[12:57] <raven{Az}> With physical play (from light to heavier intensity) I've "played" since I was 14..
[12:57] <raven{Az}> the mental aspects..2 and a half years I think it's been..
[12:57] * Ladymist wonders if she should split Dom sub sides of experience up..'G'
[12:57] * raven{Az} is 29
[12:58] <Ladymist> Domme...9 years....sub...7 years....
[12:58] <cyn{Wolf}> 17 years
[12:58] <Bugs42`> ok, I've been in this for about 15 years all as a Dom
[12:58] * Ladymist agrees with aniles
[12:58] <SirWolf> 2 yrs
[12:58] <raven{Az}> well said and I agree aniles.. :)
[12:58] <_mizu_> ummm jezzz, 11 i think
[12:59] <windchime> on & off....15 yrs with more intensity the past 4
[12:59] * ananda` is 39, experience is fairly wide...real life submissive to Roamer
[12:59] * intoit{N} 10+
[12:59] * raven{Az} smiles..seems to me we have a good range of experience here.. I like that
[12:59] <raven{Az}> so..nuts and bolts time..
[12:59] <raven{Az}> what are some areas of the body that should not be hit?
[12:59] * aniles` is 26, naturally sub for her whole life, Aware of the terms for about four years, but started in what could only be identified as a D/s relationship at least 7 years ago.
[13:00] * Roamer`` 's experience is also fairly wide, but has taken on another level with ananda{R}
[13:00] <Ladymist> inside of joints....anywhere where veins are close to the surface
[13:00] * ananda` raises her hand
[13:00] <intoit{N}> kidney area backs of the knees
[13:00] <raven{Az}> ananda?
[13:00] <ananda`> neck, kidney area, joints
[13:00] <Bugs42`> Thanks everyone, a lot of experience
[13:00] <_mizu_> neck, to many places to cause damage in one spot
[13:00] * Ladymist winces at the thought of kidneys
[13:00] * chensay grins ...spleen
[13:01] <raven{Az}> stomach..belly
[13:01] <raven{Az}> genitals..carefully!!!!
[13:01] * _mizu_ bow's to MsDMeanr saying, "greetings"
[13:01] <Ladymist> neck
[13:01] <Roamer``> <---------- is also lagging like a good 'un
[13:02] <Bugs42`> to me other than face, it depends on the sub.
[13:02] <Ladymist> hello 'S"
[13:02] <chensay> hello *grin*
[13:02] * Nymph giggles as she thinks of the Domming she did in a Vanilla relationship, and did not even realize what she was doing
[13:02] <intoit{N}> greetings MrsDmeanie...LOL
[13:02] <raven{Az}> Isn't the lower back and kidney's dangerous to hit?
[13:02] <raven{Az}> and depends..how??
[13:02] <raven{Az}> weight?
[13:02] <raven{Az}> muscle content?
[13:02] <Nymph> yes raven, and any bony prominence too
[13:02] <Ladymist> very dangerous...
[13:03] <raven{Az}> but doen't that resitrict one's playing areas
[13:03] <raven{Az}> ?
[13:03] <Nymph> necks are bad areas, too
[13:03] <_mizu_> with hard object's yes
[13:03] <intoit{N}> not at all gf
[13:03] <raven{Az}> I agree mizu..with hard objects..
[13:03] <raven{Az}> I think it depends more on what is being used, the strength behind the blow, the structure of the sub..etc..
[13:03] <Nymph> you can play anywhere, have to watch the intensity...is all
[13:04] <_mizu_> soft toy's are safe most places
[13:04] <Bugs42`> I just find it hard to say anything is hard and fast in this area, some variables in person and severything
[13:04] <raven{Az}> agreed mizu.. :)
[13:04] * ananda` was about to say the same Bugs....that many variances with us subs....
[13:04] <raven{Az}> I've used soft floggers on the kidney area..no damage..soft blows..all for "pleasure" sensation..not pain play
[13:04] <chensay> welcome back Mistress
[13:04] <_mizu_> Marisha had diffrent weight's of flogger's for use in diffrent areas
[13:04] <aniles`> True raven, the "onion grass" that Master I have been playing with could be used almost anywhere, it mostly affects the skin, can turn it red with out injuring underlaying structures.
[13:04] <Bugs42`> exactly, no one is the same and everyone HAS to talk
[13:05] <intoit{N}> that is the key veriable what is safe for me may be past anothers limits
[13:05] <ananda`> excellent point intoit
[13:05] * intoit{N} looks at Mistress
[13:06] <raven{Az}> EXACTLY!!!!
[13:06] <anand{R}> geesh, cant spell either
[13:06] * _mizu_ giggles
[13:06] <Nymph> I have been teaching intoit to realize that the back can be used to gain pleasure, he is getting used to the idea, but I certainly use lesser strength in doing this than when I flog his ass
[13:06] <raven{Az}> that's what I was looking for..what is safe for one isn't safe for others..
[13:07] * raven{Az} loves flogging on the shoulders..mid back..lightly lower back (depending on condition of my back..) thighs..butt..etc..
[13:07] * ananda{R} nods
[13:07] <raven{Az}> in general though, for those just starting..what areas are best avoided?
[13:07] <aniles`> which is why the dynamics of the relationship come into play and discussion and trust
[13:07] <raven{Az}> yes aniles.. :)
[13:07] * ananda{R} only finds pleasure from a flogger on my upper back
[13:08] * Ladymist loves back..but DON"T hit the lower portions....unless you want me to freak...LOL
[13:08] <ananda{R}> I am the same Ladymist
[13:08] <Nymph> I have also used the cane effectively, and when it was introduced, he almost balked as he did not know that I could bring as much pleasure to him as I did
[13:09] <intoit{N}> not my back but my ass and thighs and legs
[13:09] <Ladymist> good for you! 'looking @ Nymph
[13:09] <Nymph> but to attempt the cane on his back...forget it ....he could not tolerate it
[13:09] * aniles` hasn't been caned, not sure about that one... *you go intoit!*
[13:09] * chensay hasnt been caned either
[13:10] <intoit{N}> with the proper teachings you could learn to like it
[13:10] <raven{Az}> caning is something I've wanted to try..but I don't know if I would find pleasure in it or not..
[13:10] <Bugs42`> in general a beginning person, I would stay away from genitals, breast, lower back and of course the head
[13:10] <intoit{N}> i look for ward to it ...cept for punishment(
[13:11] * ananda{R} has witnessed plenty of canings...you gotta have a tuff backside for it I think!
[13:11] <raven{Az}> I think a cane would have to be a punishment item for me bf..from the few things I've been struck with that are similar to a cane, the pain is too high for me at this point
[13:11] <Nymph> if you had the proper teacher you could get pleasure from it...trust me ...
[13:11] * cyn{Wolf} agrees with ana
[13:11] <raven{Az}> I do trust you Ma'an..where do you think I got the idea to allow myself to "wonder" about it? <giggle>
[13:11] <aniles`> Hmmm, in the punishment realm I think an important thing is for a Dom/Master/Top to be in control of their emotions before begining.
[13:11] <Bugs42`> and my blows would be light to moderate... but we would talk a whole lot
[13:11] * MsDMeanr turns to raven and smiles, listening quietly
[13:12] <Nymph> then the person yielding the "cane-like" objecct did not know how to use it effectively
[13:12] <raven{Az}> ok..this brings us to punishment.. :)
[13:12] <raven{Az}> That doesn't surprise me Nymph..he couldn't stay away from my scar either.. LOL
[13:13] <Nymph> I know you trust me...
[13:14] <raven{Az}> OK..back to talking..ready all?
[13:15] <raven{Az}> we've come around to punishment..which is entirely different than pleasure..
[13:15] <raven{Az}> so..should a safeword be allowed during punishment?
[13:15] <windchime> lol..i've already said i don't believe so
[13:16] <chensay> i think yes, but i dont think a sub would use it...
[13:16] <Ladymist> agreed
[13:16] <windchime> but punishment isn't supposed to be pleasurable
[13:16] <intoit{N}> this is where trust is instilled
[13:16] <aniles`> No, a safe word should not be allowed during punishment, but it is also not the time to try and push well established limits either. I believe that Master Knows what works as a punishment and doesn't need to try something previously untried
[13:17] <Nymph> I think a safe word is just that.....to be used for safety....in punishment or in play....when one reaches his limits....to continue would be detrimental to both parties
[13:17] <raven{Az}> I agree with what you say aniles..
[13:17] <Ladymist> I agree with Nymph
[13:18] <raven{Az}> for me, I don't believe a safe word should be used in punishment..
[13:18] <Nymph> thanks Ladymist, I trust intoit enuff to know he would not use a safe word unless something is seriously wrong
[13:18] <intoit{N}> for me i feel if a safeword is there it no longer is punishment
[13:18] <raven{Az}> it isn't supposed to be for pleasure..but I do agree that one should be allowed in the case that there is something wrong..
[13:18] <raven{Az}> seriously wrong..not just used out of fear for being punished ..
[13:19] <Ladymist> I think a subbie would not use a safe during punishment unless thers WAS something seriously wrong
[13:19] * chensay agrees with Lady Mist
[13:19] <MsDMeanr> and one must always consider whether or not the "crime" is worth loosing ones submissive's trust over. If you push the limit, or the sumbissive gets in trouble and cannot safe out, the trust is damaged, and the relationship suffers. Personally, there is nothing he could do that is a "punishable offense" that is worth that. I always allow a safeword in punishment, providing he knows if he uses it, he better have a REALLY good reason.
[13:19] <aniles`> I believe if I were ever Seriously in danger I would probably use it, or say something that would indicate how serious it was, but I don't forsee that as an outcome of a punishment
[13:19] <intoit{N}> one does not know me at times...lol
[13:20] * raven{Az} pauses to read
[13:20] * Ladymist applauds MsDM
[13:20] <raven{Az}> Well said MsD!! I agree with that..
[13:20] * aniles` has to have a damn good reason for safeing during play....
[13:20] * chensay grins.... good one MsD
[13:20] <Nymph> if i were punishing intoit for something...he knows that if he uses a safe word he has to explain it and it had better be for a good reason....
[13:21] <intoit{N}> this is true
[13:22] <Ladymist> should subbies always explain and discuss safe situations?
[13:22] <intoit{N}> better not be for a whimp out
[13:22] <Ladymist> a situation where they used their safeword
[13:22] <Nymph> nice way of saying it MsD....what I was attempting to say
[13:22] <Myrical> I believe that they should
[13:22] <intoit{N}> yes
[13:22] <MsDMeanr> define "safe situations", please
[13:22] * aniles` has to, how else does the Dom/me know how to work around it in the future
[13:22] <Ladymist> I think so too....at least I know i have to...and I require it...
[13:22] <chensay> true
[13:23] <Nymph> if they safe out ...yes or how else is the Dom/me to know what not to do at a later session, be it punishment or play
[13:23] <Ladymist> MsDM: a situation where a subbie had to safeowrd out...
[13:23] <MsDMeanr> what you are asking is if a submissive should always explain why they used their safeword? or should they discuss previously situations when they may use it?
[13:23] <MsDMeanr> got it
[13:23] * MsDMeanr nods
[13:23] <MsDMeanr> what Nymph said!
[13:23] * MsDMeanr laughs
[13:23] <raven{Az}> I believe so yes LM..ANY use of a safeword should be discussed..it helps the participants learn
[13:24] * cyn{Wolf} has a question
[13:24] <raven{Az}> go ahead cyn..
[13:24] <cyn{Wolf}> safewords out because of emotional or physical reasons? or does that matter?
[13:24] * chensay listens curiously
[13:24] <intoit{N}> both
[13:24] <aniles`> I think either should be discussed.
[13:24] <Ladymist> doesn't matter to Master...both have to be discussed
[13:24] <Nymph> does not matter I think cyn{W} it should be discussed
[13:24] <raven{Az}> it matters..and definitely should have been discuess..
[13:25] <Myrical> It would be because of both
[13:25] * Ladymist looks at cyn....
[13:25] <raven{Az}> discussed even
[13:26] <Nymph> I think it all goes back to trusting your Dom/me and trusting your subbie.....first and foremost
[13:26] * ananda{R} nods
[13:26] <Roamer``> indeed Nymph, but that can only come with discussion
[13:26] <raven{Az}> yes..trust does play a major role in everything with BdSM..
[13:26] <Bugs42`> trust has to be the basis and doing a lot of talking
[13:27] <intoit{N}> if it is not discussed you have crulity
[13:27] <raven{Az}> agreed bf..
[13:27] <Myrical> dragon: either/or both....doesnt really matter....it's a good reason either way....if the sub doesnt feel comfortable then they should safe out then discuss why they did
[13:27] <raven{Az}> but this brings in Play partners..
[13:27] <Nymph> exactly what I have been saying all along
[13:27] <raven{Az}> what about those who are just playing once in a while..but not in a ongoing relationship..what safety measures should they take prior to play?
[13:27] <Myrical> dragon: but after the situation has calmed down
[13:27] <aniles`> When should the discussion take place? Immeadiately? or should time be taken to deal with other things first, such as cooling off, coming down...
[13:27] <raven{Az}> well said dragn!
[13:27] <raven{Az}> depends on the situation aniles..
[13:27] <Nymph> if a sub does not feel comfortable, then the sub and Master need to back up and work on trusting ...
[13:28] <intoit{N}> it shouls START immeditly
[13:28] <Myrical> aniles` it should take place after cooling down
[13:28] <Bugs42`> I like the idea of immediate talk with follow up talks
[13:28] <raven{Az}> not always bf..sometimes it may need to cool down first..
[13:28] <aniles`> Play partners is another realm altogether, I would imagine Safe words would be a requirement
[13:28] <Nymph> one I think can not discuss anything cognitively until after both parties have cooled off
[13:28] <intoit{N}> it needs to start immediate
[13:28] <MsDMeanr> I use a 4 word system. . . .red-stop, yellow-slow, green-OOOOH GOODNESS I LIKE THAT!, and blue-stop for emotional reasons. . . .the reason I use blue <and red will get a stop every time> is that if the emotional reason is one we have discussed before <Vietnam Vet and he has a flash back> I KNOW what to do immediately! does that make sense?
[13:28] <raven{Az}> if it's a panic situation..say the sub had something triggered like old memories of abuse..then definitely cooling down must happen before discussion can take place
[13:29] <raven{Az}> yes MsD!! I was going to raise that point!!
[13:29] <Nymph> but should not wait for longer than a few minutes....
[13:29] <Ladymist> likes the concept of blue
[13:29] <Myrical> dragon: I dont think that it should take immediatley b/c the sub needs the time to find the words
[13:29] <windchime> woudln't it depend on how emotional both were at the time?
[13:30] <ananda{R}> sounds like it would depend on the individual couple as to what is best
[13:30] * aniles` nods, I think a brief explanation can take place immeadiately, even if it is just to indicate that it is emotional or physical, but especially with emotional, sometimes just a "hold me" session is better immeadiatly...
[13:30] <raven{Az}> good point windchime..
[13:30] <cyn{Wolf}> the one and only time I used a safeword was because of a flashback, and I couldn't be touched..but He thought He had physically hurt me..that is why I asked the question
[13:30] <intoit{N}> yes
[13:31] <intoit{N}> that is called accknowlagement
[13:31] <Myrical> That is true aniles
[13:31] <raven{Az}> in that situation cyn a cool down would be needed..
[13:31] <raven{Az}> well said aniles.. :)
[13:31] <aniles`> ok for intoit, red=stop yellow=slow "oooooohhhhhhhh"=go...
[13:31] * raven{Az} tosses this out
[13:31] <raven{Az}> sub space..
[13:31] <intoit{N}> LOL
[13:31] * Ladymist perks up
[13:31] <raven{Az}> most subs can't think, many can't talk while in sub space..so how does one safe out?[13:31] * chensay listens
[13:31] <Ladymist> what about subspace?
[13:32] * raven{Az} can't talk, think, or anything else if far enough into sub space..
[13:32] <Ladymist> ohhhh....that is where trust is EVERYTHING
[13:32] * raven{Az} can only feel..<g>
[13:32] <aniles`> I don't imagine that I would be inclined to safe out in sub space....
[13:32] <intoit{N}> it is better than Calgon take me away
[13:32] <raven{Az}> yes bf!!
[13:32] <raven{Az}> but if a dom hits wrong for example, and the sub is in sub space, she doesn't feel it..what happens then?
[13:32] <raven{Az}> who's responsibiliyt is it ?
[13:32] * Ladymist can only feel too...
[13:32] <ananda{R}> I think when you are in your subspace it is more important than ever for hte Dom to know your body language
[13:33] <Myrical> dragon: If in subspace some kind of movement of the body should be discussed before hand
[13:33] * raven{Az} hits upon safety being the sub's responsibiliyt by removing the consciousness of the sub
[13:33] <ananda{R}> I have never been that far into supspace that I did not remember the safe words
[13:33] <Myrical> dragon: If the Dom/me is observent and knows His/Her partner well enough then He/She would know
[13:34] <MsDMeanr> thank you, sweeting
[13:34] <ananda{R}> I have had a Dom remind me and Master willa sk me how things are sometimes
[13:34] <Ladymist> agreed
[13:34] <Bugs42`> question, when in sub space, do you think? are you cognitive enough to drop something in your hand, to safe out?
[13:34] <intoit{N}> now the pain becomes an aphrodiziac
[13:34] <Ladymist> .me is not cognitive enough
[13:34] <ananda{R}> good pain certainly is all of that intoit
[13:34] <aniles`> at that point (subspace) the responsibility is the Dom's... but it is the responsibility of the sub to not put herself in a position to go to space with someone she doesn't have that level of trust with
[13:34] <raven{Az}> well said ananda..yes body language knowledge is important
[13:34] <intoit{N}> no not in the least
[13:34] <ananda{R}> good point aniles
[13:35] <windchime> i can't achieve subspace if i don't completely trust my partner because of that reason
[13:35] <raven{Az}> I have ananda..where I didn't even know what time it was, where I was or anything..I could only feel..
[13:35] <raven{Az}> not always Bugs..(to the drop something question)
[13:35] <Ladymist> I can't either
[13:35] <ananda{R}> me either windchime, trust is part of getting into subspace
[13:35] <Myrical> dragon: most of the time I think you could....but you should have a back up to that...such as some kind of body movement
[13:35] <raven{Az}> well said aniles.. :)
[13:35] <aniles`> I don't think I could HOLD ON to something in space... hehehe.
[13:36] <MsDMeanr> I talk with a submissive all through a scene. . .checking in often. . . .but I also find it a very responsible place to be, and as such, I tend to not play at this level until I know the body language of the submissive I am playing with.
[13:36] <raven{Az}> for me, holding onto to something when I enter subspace..wouldn't count for a safe word..because my figners automatically tighten around the object and just hold on for dear life and I have no clue if there is anything in my hand..
[13:36] <raven{Az}> well said MsD
[13:36] <Bugs42`> so di I MsD, I talk constantly
[13:36] <Myrical> dragon: Would it be good to have more than one way to safe out???
[13:37] <raven{Az}> what if the sub can't answer?
[13:37] <Nymph> I dont talk constantly, but I check him often
[13:39] <MsDMeanr> mmmm constantly as in the 3 to 5 hours of play time include a LOT of conversation. . .not *stroke* "you ok?" *stroke* "you ok?" *stroke* "you ok?" . . .etc.
[13:39] * aniles` listens for "green green green gre...."
[13:39] <chensay> lol
[13:39] <ananda{R}> k
[13:39] <windchime> i hate to be spoken to when i'm in space
[13:40] <MsDMeanr> and, simply for clarification. . .green is used when something is REALLY working for him, and he wants more, but can't articulate that into words. . . . .I have heard him use it twice.
[13:40] <aniles`> I don't mind being spoken to, just don't like to have to reply...
[13:40] <Myrical> dragon: Was my question too hard...or did nobody see it??
[13:40] <Ladymist> I don't like to reply but like to hear that everything is ok....
[13:40] <Ladymist> brings me down gently
[13:40] <Ladymist> I don't think I saw it...
[13:40] <aniles`> exactly Ladyn=mist
[13:40] <ananda{R}> I think I missed the questino dragon, mind repeating?
[13:41] <aniles`> oppp... Ladymist even
[13:41] <Myrical> dragon: Would it be good to have more than one way to safe out???
[13:41] <ananda{R}> you menamore than one safe word?
[13:41] <aniles`> If it is a word, and they are gagged, then yes
[13:41] <Roamer``> no pet, more than one way
[13:41] <raven{Az}> yes it would..
[13:41] <Nymph> that would be between you and your partner Myrical
[13:41] <Roamer``> like a body movement or such
[13:41] <ananda{R}> most deffo!
[13:42] <Bugs42`> I think there needs to be more than one way, a verbal and a physical
[13:42] <raven{Az}> I agree Bugs..
[13:42] * Roamer`` agrees with Bugs
[13:42] <Myrical> dragon: No I meant like if there was like say .....too have a safe word...and also something like dropping something or a movement
[13:42] * ananda{R} definitely agrees
[13:43] <in2space> i did not see it
[13:43] <MsDMeanr> I did not see it, Myrical
[13:43] <Myrical> I agree with Bugs
[13:43] <Bugs42`> exactly dragon... I meant dropping a small stick as the physical
[13:43] <raven{Az}> I agree dragn, there should be a safeword for those times when the sub can't be verbal..like when they are gagged
[13:44] <raven{Az}> though..that's usually dropping something..or whatever
[13:44] <Myrical> dragon: Can anyone ever be to safe???
[13:44] <raven{Az}> I think so dragn..
[13:44] <MsDMeanr> When I play I remind them that if I don't stop or change when they safeword, it is because I did not hear them, and to scream it out. . . .But there is a lot of trust there. If there is a gag in place, or another reason they cannot verbalize, I have a lil dog ball, rubber with a bell inside, and they simply rattle that.
[13:44] <raven{Az}> when one gets caged in by fear of hurting someone..they lose that element of "danger" that is so exciting to many of us..
[13:45] <raven{Az}> good one MsD :)
[13:45] <raven{Az}> they lose the ability to try something different.. or new..their imagination stagnates..
[13:45] <raven{Az}> so yeah..one can be too safe..
[13:45] <MsDMeanr> well, then it is a 2 way system. . .either drop it, or rattle it.
[13:45] <Myrical> Can there be a third way...such as a particular movement
[13:46] <raven{Az}> I don't know if I'd agree with a body movement..many people move alot when theyre aroused..so it would be difficult to discern a safe movement from something else..
[13:46] <Bugs42`> yes, you can be too safe, you can worry things to death and be so careful that there is no longer and elemnet of excitement
[13:46] <MsDMeanr> I agree, raven. . . if you get so many safewords/motions/etc., then the dominant spends all of her/his time checkin' the safewords and none relaxing and havin' fun!
[13:46] <Myrical> dragon: I have been to the point that I couldnt feel my hands and I had something in my hands but I couldnt drop it...and I was gagged so what else could have I done??
[13:46] <intoit{N}> shudder the thought gf
[13:47] <raven{Az}> exactly MsD
[13:47] <aniles`> if you are worrying that much then how much trust could there be?
[13:47] <raven{Az}> it may not be just because of trust aniles..it could come from all the people pushing safety safety safety!
[13:47] <raven{Az}> the power of what others say is quite strong..
[13:47] <intoit{N}> only if one is commanded not to move
[13:48] <intoit{N}> but in subspace you lose that prespective
[13:48] <aniles`> Myrical: if you couldn't feel your hands, then was the Top checking for good circulation and such?
[13:48] <raven{Az}> yes you do bf..
[13:48] <Myrical> that was dragons question
[13:48] <raven{Az}> probably not..but in that case, shouldn't the sub say "I can't feel my hands?"
[13:48] <Myrical> She was gagged gf
[13:49] <aniles`> she said she was gagged.. hehehe
[13:49] <raven{Az}> ok..was a safeword given for that situation?
[13:49] <raven{Az}> was the sub nervous? new scene?
[13:49] <ananda{R}> if you tie someone up, you are responsible to constantly check for that type of safety issue I think
[13:51] <Myrical> Myrical and dragon are at the same computer we are both here.....Just to let you know
[13:52] <raven{Az}> If I remember correctly..this situation makes a case in point for sub space and safewords..
[13:52] <raven{Az}> also brings in..new sensations, fear, nervousness..and subbie pride
[13:52] * raven{Az} looks at the clock..my gosh..2 hours already??
End
![[Blue Ribbon Campaign icon]](/images/ribbarwh.gif){kind=small}