Training

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[19:33] <ravenshad> Tonight's topic is training.. 
[19:34] <ravenshad> so..lets's start with this..what do you consider training? 
[19:34] <Jackal{s}> anything from a leaarning point of view 
[19:34] <LadyMist> anything that prepares a sub to please 
[19:35] <LadyMist> in the longterm 
[19:35] <LadyMist> and makes them more confidant 
[19:35] <ravenshad> OK..so does training have a definite start and finish? 
[19:35] <LadyMist> no 
[19:35] <_mizu_> training was a formal process, learning how to act at all times 
[19:35] <Jackal{s}> why and how does it start 
[19:35] <Soulhuntr> Sometimes :) 
[19:35] <LadyMist> formal training can...and in my life does 
[19:35] <Amax> Like with anything in life, there is always learning... 
[19:36] <ravenshad> Would training then be something that only occurs in a more "formal" relationship? or is it in every BDSM relationship? 
[19:36] <_mizu_> as for a finish, no thing's change and need to be adapted to 
[19:36] <Jackal{s}> but there are so many ways to learn 
[19:36] <Soulhuntr> Training is a somewhat seperate process from "learning" in my mind. Like formal education is. 
[19:36] <LadyMist> I think training ALWAY needs to occur for a sub's comfort 
[19:37] <LadyMist> learning takes place everyday 
[19:37] <_mizu_> not in a play relationship, training is more for a 24/7 type 
[19:37] <MsDMeanr> I believe training is an ongoing feature, a plus if you will, of a viable relationship.  Training never ceases, for when it does, one must claim perfection!  (and we KNOW that is not going to happen!)   
[19:37] <LadyMist> I agree 
[19:37] <LadyMist> 'S" 
[19:37] <MsDMeanr> The only realistic end I can see to training is the dismissal of the trainee. 
[19:37] <Jackal{s}> skylar needs to understand how trainning is acheived in everyday life 
[19:37] <ravenshad> darn MsD I was hoping I was perfect.. LOLOL (NOT) 
[19:37] <ravenshad> ok..so what is included in "training"? 
[19:37] <LadyMist> I ahve training sessions...in the beginning 
[19:37] <Kimiko> depends on what the submissive is training to learn :) 
[19:38] <MsDMeanr> I believe what is included is highly individualized/ 
[19:38] <LadyMist> positions behavior...manners ...everything I expect to see demonstrated 
[19:38] <MsDMeanr> erk. . . .- the / 
[19:38] <_mizu_> what service is desired, and how to present it 
[19:38] <ravenshad> True..I have to agree it is highly individualized..but there must be some common things.. 
[19:38] <MsDMeanr> well, more than common, perhaps generalized. 
[19:38] <ravenshad> ok..that word works.. 
[19:39] <Kimiko> attitude, grace, speach, body language, the ability to stay still are all "basic" in my opinion 
[19:39] <LadyMist> how to serve and when 
[19:39] <LadyMist> agreed with Kimi 
[19:39] <Kimiko> as well as anticipation 
[19:39] <MsDMeanr> how to stand, serve, kneel, speak, address this dominant, address others. . .etc. 
[19:39] <LadyMist> I LIKE that one!!! 
[19:39] * _mizu_ giggles 
[19:39] <Jackal{s}> this takes major discussions on both paarty's  ...correct? 
[19:39] <LadyMist> No...I don't think 
[19:40] <Kimiko> well sure...you have to have a Dom who can or knows someone who can train those things 
[19:40] <ravenshad> ok..so things such as basic respect...and general body language (kneeling etc)..all of which can of course be individualized by a dom.. 
[19:40] <Kimiko> and you have to know the submissive is willing to learn such things 
[19:40] <LadyMist> I think if one chooses to serve they should know how to serve me... 
[19:40] <MsDMeanr> To a point, Jackal. . .but once the collar is on, does not this imply the trust of the submissive for his/her dominant?  In that trust, do they not agree that we know what we are doing and where we wish to take them? 
[19:40] <ntalia> my Master included sensuality in my lessons. and specialized household tasks like bartending and cheffing for when he entertained people. 
[19:41] <LadyMist> 'S' 
[19:41] <Jackal{s}> I am not sure and that is why we are here tonight to find out. 
[19:41] <Tatsumi> what wpould you like to find out? 
[19:41] <ravenshad> when a collar is placed..the sub should indeed trust the dominant already... 
[19:41] <ravenshad> or the collar never should have been placed 
[19:41] <LadyMist> the sub should trust that you will train her in what she needs to knwo to feel secure and confidant... 
[19:41] <Jackal{s}> ntalia ... that helps 
[19:41] <Tatsumi> agree with Raven 
[19:42] <MsDMeanr> Well, Jackal, this is my NEVER so humble opinion only!  Pay no attention to the woman behind the keyboard!  <grinz>  Unless of course you like what you hear! 
[19:42] <ravenshad> now, as to what specifics you train your sub to do, taht is individual.. 
[19:42] <Tatsumi> specific to the sub, not always to the dom 
[19:42] <Tatsumi> yes 
[19:42] <ravenshad> I mean..if you want your sub to kneel before getting in bed..or not yell at you..then you train her for those things.. 
[19:42] <Kimiko> i still think that falls under "basic" raven 
[19:43] <Soulhuntr> Just telling someone the rules is NOT training them. 
[19:43] <Soulhuntr> Thats simple obedience. 
[19:43] <Jackal{s}> raven..thank you for now I am aware of whaat I need to do. 
[19:43] <ravenshad> Yes it falls under basic..but not everyone wants to train their sub to kneel alot... 
[19:43] <MsDMeanr> agreed, Soulhuntr 
[19:43] <Kimiko> agrees with Daddy 
[19:43] <LadyMist> re-inforcing the rules? 
[19:43] <_mizu_> i was trained for a year before i recieved my collar, durring that time Marisha watched me to see how i did my "orders" and corrected when needed 
[19:43] <Tatsumi> but every sub should be able to kneel, unless theur are medical reasons 
[19:44] * LadyMist agrees 
[19:44] <MsDMeanr> and even with medical reasons, a sub can be trained to hold a submissive position when required. 
[19:44] <Tatsumi> depends on the medical condition and the position, but sure 
[19:44] * MsDMeanr nods and smiles 
[19:44] <_mizu_> Marisha belived in bowing Tatsumi, that was more important than kneeling 
[19:44] <_mizu_> also harder to learn 
[19:45] <LadyMist> can anyone agree or describe how a training schedule should go? 
[19:45] <Jackal{s}> skylar wants to know when it is important to bow or kneel? 
[19:45] <Tatsumi> Lady, does the trainee live with the Trainer? 
[19:45] <MsDMeanr> aye, that it does.  . . it has taken james a year to get to where he can kneel. . .at first he simply sat on the floor at my feet.  Due to hip surgery I have not "required" him to kneel, but he has learned and it is a wonderous gift from him. 
[19:45] <Soulhuntr> 23 hours of giving oral sex, one hour of sleep is optimal for a submissive. 
[19:45] <Tatsumi> does the trainee hold a full-time job? 
[19:45] <Soulhuntr> :) 
[19:45] <LadyMist> In my life yes 
[19:45] <Tatsumi> lol Daddy 
[19:45] <Kimiko> lol 
[19:46] <MsDMeanr> rofl! Soulhuntr 
[19:46] <Tatsumi> Lady, a schedule is too individula to give a valid expample of here i think 
[19:46] <MsDMeanr> I agree, Tatsumi 
[19:47] <LadyMist> I do too...just trying to keep things going I was..LOL 
[19:47] <_mizu_> there are 5 level's of bowing, and only one of kneeling Sir 
[19:47] * chensay sits down to listen 
[19:47] <Kimiko> mizu..i would be interested in an email about the 5 levels 
[19:47] <MsDMeanr> 5 levels, mizzy? 
[19:47] <MsDMeanr> me too, mizzy! 
[19:47] <Kimiko> and there are many more in our life of kneeling 
[19:47] <LadyMist> So what was the first thing you were taught or you taught in training? 
[19:47] <Jackal{s}> me too mizzy 
[19:47] <ntalia> when i was trained for sensuality, Master had a box of fabric swatches and feathers and such. i was to run them over my skin in different fashions and concentrate on the sensation. i was to start at my fingertips and up and over my shoulders and breasts. 
[19:48] <Soulhuntr> ::smiles:: That depends on the style mizu. For example, there are at least 3 levels in estate positions for kneeling, and with the modifiers another 16 poswsibilities. 
[19:48] <Kimiko> how to address him 
[19:48] <_mizu_> yes, depending on the the occation, and the social level of the person you are greeting 
[19:48] <MsDMeanr> estate positions?  ok, I am lost. . .can you explain it to me sometime, Soulhuntr? 
[19:48] <ntalia> later, when he was there, he would bind me down and blindfold me, and repeat the exercise on first the top adn then the bottom half of my body. i had to identify what he was using on me. 
[19:49] <MsDMeanr> that sounds like a load of fun, naphi! 
[19:49] * LadyMist cheers 
[19:49] <Soulhuntr> Sure... just head over to the website, it's easier and we wont take up space in ravens talk :) 
[19:50] <ntalia> yes ma'am. a lot of fun, and a lot of work... and very productive too i think for teaching me to listen to my body and to sensations. 
[19:51] <MsDMeanr> Jackal, what kind of training do you wish. . .I think that is the first question. . . .do you wish her first to learn to serve you properly in domestic duties?  Do you wish her to first learn to serve you properly in public?  Or do you wish her to learn only the sensual side of service?   
[19:51] <ravenshad> what things are taught beisdes body positioning? (like patience and such) 
[19:52] <Soulhuntr> Depends on how someone is to be used. 
[19:52] <Jackal{s}> Voice command should be obeyed by the sub and the Master must learn how to use toys... Is this correct? 
[19:52] <LadyMist> I agree with Soul 
[19:52] <Soulhuntr> What you need to have for skills depends on your final needed skills. 
[19:52] <Soulhuntr> (wow.. that was obvious :) ) 
[19:52] <LadyMist> 'S" 
[19:52] <Jackal{s}> Sensual side first 
[19:52] * volsung thinks he has a long way to go 
[19:53] <MsDMeanr> agreed, Jackal. . .but the dominant must also learn how to use his/her submissive.  A submissive with the ability to do X, Y, and Z and who is only used for Y becomes very frustrated. 
[19:53] <LadyMist> I think Jackal and skylar has been service oriented tho they don't knwo it 
[19:53] <_mizu_> true Sir 
[19:54] <Kimiko> i agree MsDMeanr. 
[19:54] <ravenshad> what methods can be used in training? 
[19:54] <MsDMeanr> this is also the reason that dominants and submissives must be "equally yoked" (to steal an idea from King James) 
[19:55] <Soulhuntr> Equally Yoked? 
[19:55] <Soulhuntr> ::chuckles:: 
[19:55] <LadyMist> ok methods...I am lost...I do what seems right for whom I am dealing wiht 
[19:55] <_mizu_> positive re-enforcement or a good crop (giggle) 
[19:55] * lil`dragn ponders.......meaning everyone gets an equal amound of egg??? 
[19:55] * LadyMist likes a good crop 
[19:56] <MsDMeanr> those are yolks, dragon. . .a yoke is used on work animals to help them shoulder the load. 
[19:56] <Kimiko> for me...taking time to work on the skills in my position help to train me to do them naturally and well 
[19:56] <Kimiko> being corrected when I make a mistake helps 
[19:56] * MsDMeanr nods 
[19:56] <Soulhuntr> Why would a dom and a sub have to be equally ANYTHING? 
[19:56] <lil`dragn> ahh.....ok......sorry......<innocent smile> 
[19:56] <MsDMeanr> aye, Kimiko. . .very well said 
[19:56] * LadyMist agrees 
[19:57] <Jackal{s}> I understand better now and am looking forward to new ideas. 
[19:57] <MsDMeanr> well, I am a sadistic wench at heart!  If I collar a submissive who is not massochistic, there is a MAJOR problem from the get go, yes? 
[19:57] <Soulhuntr> Depends, how many do you have? IS it her purpose? 
[19:57] * _mizu_ giggles 
[19:57] <MsDMeanr> ah!  very good point, Soulhuntr. 
[19:58] <LadyMist> ok...what expectation can a sub have from her training? 
[19:58] <MsDMeanr> I am thinking more of a ltr and for me that is a one on one proposition. . .so it would have to be his purpose to satisfy that part of me. 
[19:58] <Soulhuntr> A sub must be suited to her use. BUT it should be true as well that she is flexible. 
[19:59] <Kimiko> she should expect to be corrected 
[19:59] <MsDMeanr> aye, agreed. . . to an extent. . .but then we get into the old sub vs slave debate! 
[19:59] <Kimiko> she should expect to have as much time as her trainer can give to her on her training given 
[19:59] <Jackal{s}> skylar feels that she shoould have a sense of acheivement and acceptance from her Master. 
[20:01] <MsDMeanr> Jackal, I feel that this is a very important concept as well.  Some believe the sense of achievement and accomplishment come only from within the submissive while others purport that it is the dominant's job to see that he/she is aware of these things. 
[20:01] * LadyMist thinks it should come from the sub / slave 
[20:02] <Kimiko> I certainly agree that she should feel acceptance and approval from her dominant but she should feel that way about herself as well 
[20:03] <Jackal{s}> I agree with you Kimiko 
[20:04] <ravenshad> OK..so a sub should feel acceptance and confidence in themselves..should training help instill those in the sub? 
[20:04] <Kimiko> i think that's an effect of it 
[20:04] <MsDMeanr> I believe so, ravenshad. . . I think that is one of the desired "side affects" 
[20:05] <ravenshad> OK..so that's a pleasant side effect..could it ever be the purpose or goal of certain kinds of training? 
[20:05] <Kimiko> i believe that most subs draw an inaccurate conclusion about training. 
[20:05] <_mizu_> yes raven, but also the pride the Dom has in the sub for the service being done well 
[20:05] <ravenshad> what would that be Kimi? 
[20:05] <LadyMist> and what is that? 
[20:06] <MsDMeanr> I think that self esteme is a goal or purpose of many dominants in training their submissives 
[20:06] <Kimiko> they start out going "ok he's going to train me" 
[20:06] * MsDMeanr nods and listens to Kimiko 
[20:06] <Kimiko> and when they don't see "physical" or don't see the "training" per se 
[20:06] <Kimiko> then they believe the Dom isn't training them...b 
[20:06] * Axcel dusts off an old chair, and sits quietly 
[20:06] <LadyMist> aaaaaaaaahhhhhhh 
[20:06] <Kimiko> but I am a very STRONG believer in the concept of.... 
[20:06] * chens{LM} tips her head, listening 
[20:06] <ravenshad> ok..then training and each peron's perceptions of it, should be discussed ... 
[20:07] <Kimiko> your Dom is like a physical trainer 
[20:07] <Kimiko> they teach you what to do 
[20:07] <Kimiko> and spot you 
[20:07] <Kimiko> but you have to do the work 
[20:07] <Kimiko> and i think alot of subs forget they have just as much effort to put into it 
[20:07] <MsDMeanr> so you do not define training as "micro management" then, Kimiko? 
[20:07] <Kimiko> i use to :) 
[20:07] <Bugs42^> good description Kimiko 
[20:07] <Jackal{s}> I'm beginning to get better handle on the training process. 
[20:07] <Kimiko> until i realized that just because he may be working it doesn't mean i shouldn't continue to do those things i'm being trained for 
[20:08] <Kimiko> thank you Bugs 
[20:08] <LadyMist> I agree 
[20:08] <Kimiko> not to mention that proactivity is a very desireable quality in a submissive 
[20:08] <Bugs42^> agreed!!!! 
[20:08] <MsDMeanr> agreed! 
[20:08] <Kimiko> if you and your Trainer are discussing one day about how he wishes you could talk about current events more 
[20:09] <LadyMist> so many subs (IMO)  expect to be FORCED into training and position etc 
[20:09] <Kimiko> nothing is stopping you from finding a "news" url and reading the topics daily 
[20:09] <MsDMeanr> one of the tools I find most effective for "training" of the mind is a daily journal.   
[20:09] <LadyMist> then you read the paper 
[20:09] <Kimiko> i believe so Lady 
[20:09] <LadyMist> exactly 
[20:09] <Bugs42^> I like journals as well, they help immensly 
[20:09] <LadyMist> agreed 
[20:09] <MsDMeanr> and daily rituals to keep the mindset 
[20:09] <Kimiko> the only problem with a journal is that i think it can unconsiously be used for manipulation 
[20:09] <Kimiko> or demands 
[20:10] * LadyMist likes daily rituals 
[20:10] <ravenshad> what if someone finds it difficult to write in a journal? or doesn't write everything in the journal? can it still be used? 
[20:10] <MsDMeanr> true, but a dominant who knows the submissive well enough will know when this is happening, yes? 
[20:10] <Kimiko> yes but it won't stop the resentment felt because it is happening 
[20:10] <Bugs42^> no, the journal must be honest 
[20:10] <LadyMist> yes... for some it helps for others... 
[20:10] <ravenshad> can daily rituals be a part of training? 
[20:10] <Kimiko> i think they are a part of training 
[20:10] <MsDMeanr> I think that this question boils down to the question of trust, ravenshad. . . as you and I have discussed before.  In that case, I would have "directed journaling" and work through some of those trust issues.   
[20:11] <ravenshad> everyone manipulates at some point or another, and sometimes they don't even realize they are doing it.. 
[20:11] <Kimiko> just as practicing your kicks in karate is a "daily ritual" so are other activities d/s wise 
[20:11] <ravenshad> smart move MsD 
[20:11] <Kimiko> :smiles: that's something to be trained not to do raven :) 
[20:13] <MsDMeanr> daily rituals can also re-enforce position. . . for example, when the dominant is having a stressful time, rituals enforce the position of the dominant and submissive when oft times little things can slip by. . . .make sense? 
[20:13] <Bugs42^> it is hard to train the manipulation part, simply because many don't see it, but yes it can be dealt with once it is recognised 
[20:13] <ravenshad> yes it makes sense.. 
[20:13] <Jackal{s}> well I have learned a lot this evening but my medication taking effect the keys are blurr good night all 
[20:13] * volsung has many things he must do each morning 
[20:13] <ravenshad> though, I would think that with times of stress, maintaining rituals may be ver difficult.. 
[20:14] <LadyMist> and the small rituals can be used to begin reflections 
[20:14] <Kimiko> :nods: I believe that occassionally the Dominant has the problem of when to keep up training. there are many times i'm sick...and Daddy wants to be nice... 
[20:14] <Bugs42^> difficult, yes, but should be part of the discipline 
[20:14] <Kimiko> does he: 
[20:14] <Kimiko> a) be nice and let me stay in bed 
[20:14] <Kimiko> b) train me and ask me to go do x anyway? 
[20:14] <Kimiko> most Domiants form attachments for those they train 
[20:14] * MsDMeanr nods 
[20:14] <MsDMeanr> aye 
[20:14] <Kimiko> and those feelings sometimes get in the way i think 
[20:15] <Bugs42^> yes they do, it makes it hard  
[20:15] <Kimiko> and it's got to be up to the submissive not to "give attitude" when you arent feeling well but asked to do something anyway 
[20:15] <ravenshad> I like having the "soft" (for lack of a better word) times as well sa the more formal times...it gives a nice balance.. 
[20:15] <Kimiko> this is "supposedly" what you want 
[20:15] <MsDMeanr> I agree whole heartedly, Kimiko.  It is difficult to decide, and oft times is decided on a instance to instance basis. 
[20:15] <Kimiko> i mean we say it enough 
[20:15] <_mizu_> a few times Kimiko, that is when the sub step's in to help 
[20:15] <Kimiko> :nods to mizu: 
[20:15] <ravenshad> not everyone wants that kind of relationship.. 
[20:15] <Kimiko> true enough raven :) 
[20:16] <_mizu_> it is are job th help keep the balance in the relationship 
[20:16] <Kimiko> agrees 
[20:16] <Kimiko> we hear about Domrot alot but i think Subrot is just as serious a problem :) 
[20:17] <MsDMeanr> <james> if I had not kept doing those things that are ritual such as journaling during the time that mistress was away at hospital and her family crisis, we probably would have lost the relationship.  It would have perhaps died. 
[20:17] <_mizu_> knowing the Domenates need's help's, but we must also know are training in service to them  
[20:18] <Kimiko> :nods: that is great you were able to do that james 
[20:18] <MsDMeanr> This is the stress question that was posted to the list. 
[20:18] <ravenshad> where does the line between sleflessness and a sub's needs come in? 
[20:19] <Kimiko> if you can account for ANYTHING that is a need to you within a week then you don't have THAT much to complain about in my opinion 
[20:19] <Kimiko> and you'll find that selflessness LEADS to your needs 
[20:19] <Kimiko> it's just hard to believe it 
[20:19] <ravenshad> With all the discussion on training it is the sub's job to maintain all protocol, discipline etc. during a time of stress and to keep the "balance" 
[20:19] <_mizu_> went the sub dose not see thier service as apreciated by the Dom 
[20:19] <ntalia> usually it's not about appreciation. it's about knowing that the Dom is happy.  
[20:20] <ravenshad> it's rather difficult to know a dom is happy when they are stressed because then they obviously appear unhappy or tense.. 
[20:20] <MsDMeanr> I think that is a very difficult thing to address fully, raven.  besides being highly individualized, it depends on the relationship as well.  Some say the subs needs are of no import. . .others cannot fathom a submissive "needing" X, Y, or Z and so it is not a thought. 
[20:20] <ntalia> part of my responsibility was to make my Master's life easy so he wouldn't notice how hard i worked. 
[20:20] <_mizu_> for me taila, that is the same, my pride is that om my Domme's in me 
[20:20] * ntalia nods to mizu. 
[20:21] <Kimiko> Soul always knows I have needs..and he is always encouraging me to make sure I get my needs met (even if i need to find someone else to do it) but there is a difference between getting your needs met and Demanding your needs be met 
[20:21] <MsDMeanr> so do you both (naphi and mizzy) feel that a submissive's pride should come only from a dominant's pride in them?  and how can said dominant show this pride? 
[20:22] <Bugs42^> you mean that you cannot tell the difference when your Master is stressed or unhappy raven? 
[20:22] <Kimiko> I believe it's a fine line reguarding the pride. I need Soul's pride in me. And I take pride in doing a good job. But feelign the need to point it out to GET the pride is not right 
[20:23] <ravenshad> somtimes, no Bugs I can't... 
[20:23] <MsDMeanr> agreed, Kimiko 
[20:23] * Flagg likes volsung's priorities. 
[20:23] <Bugs42^> I depend on my sub to keep the balance in our relatiosnhip and that includes gently letting me know if a need is not being met 
[20:23] <MsDMeanr> Sometimes my stress level (and it is mighty at the moment) leads others to believe I am very unhappy.  Is it a dominant's position to assure the submissive of his/her state of mind?   
[20:24] <Kimiko> um... 
[20:24] <_mizu_> yes Lady Dmeanr, we serve them to make thing's good for them, when we are happy they are to.  Marisha showed it by how she cared for me, thing's she bought for me that only bennifitted me 
[20:24] <Flagg> I do require that I be told the state of mind/ needs of people in my service. However, when/ if/ what priorities those needs are met is still up to me. 
[20:24] <Kimiko> the submissive should be aware enough of what's going on in the Dom's life to know that if you are unhappy it doesn't necessarily mean it's your fault 
[20:25] <Kimiko> that only leads to more stress for the Dom 
[20:25] * MsDMeanr nods and listens 
[20:25] * Flagg knows Kimiko worked long and hard on that last one. 
[20:25] <Kimiko> :nods; 
[20:25] <Kimiko> dpm 
[20:25] <MsDMeanr> what about when it is "long term" stress?   
[20:26] <Kimiko> don't get me wrong MsD...it helps when Soul confides what is wrong 
[20:26] <Kimiko> but it's something required of him 
[20:26] <Kimiko> i belive long term stress eventually gets discussed and then you know it's not your fault 
[20:26] <Flagg> please elaborate, MsDmeanr.. 
[20:26] <MsDMeanr> it is something required? or not something required? 
[20:26] <_mizu_> then you find a way to help the Domme Lady DMeanr 
[20:26] <Kimiko> and you do your best to make the Dom's life as easy as possible 
[20:27] <Kimiko> not required 
[20:27] <Kimiko> i'm sorry 
[20:27] <MsDMeanr> well, a personal point. . .in the last year I have lost 2 grandparents, one dear friend, a grandchild, my son in law was in a horrendous accident, my son is ill with a long term illness, my father was diagnosed with diabetes, albeit almost too late, my mother had a stroke, and I was injured. . . .THIS! ladies and gentlemen, is LONG TERM STRESS! 
[20:27] <MsDMeanr> lol 
[20:27] <_mizu_> Marisha alway's had stress in her job, so i alway's bathed her frist thing when she got home, the let her rest while i fixed dinner 
[20:28] <MsDMeanr> there have been LONG stretches of time when I could not even touch james due to physical distance 
[20:28] <MsDMeanr> then, when I was home, doing all of this plus working 3 jobs and pulling a 4.0 quarter at school kept me busy. . . .now, I don't want to let all of this fall on james' shoulders, yet he was there for me to talk to. 
[20:29] <MsDMeanr> One of the things that bothered me is that I would cry in frustration and anger at times. . . .and he would hear it.  I felt "weak."  not at all dominant. . .do you know what I mean? 
[20:29] <LadyMist> I do understnad... 
[20:29] <Bugs42^> exactly what you mean 
[20:29] <MsDMeanr> But the rituals, the way he behaved toward me, always reminded me that I was the one who was in control. . . .and I needed that! 
[20:29] <ravenshad> I do 
[20:29] <Flagg> Absolutely, MsD. 
[20:29] <_mizu_> yes Lady DMeanr 
[20:30] <MsDMeanr> So, that is the basis of the question posted to the list . . .but also, when that stress got to be a bit much, I would sometimes push him away. . . 
[20:30] <MsDMeanr> I could easily see how he could feel that it was a "personal thing."  What is it that a dominant must do to ensure a submissive does not feel this way? 
[20:33] <MsDMeanr> as an aside. . . I have begun to get my feet under me again. . .hell of a year!  Let's NOT do that again! 
[20:33] * MsDMeanr laughs 
[[20:37] <MsDMeanr> so, back to the discussion. . .how does all this tie into training?  Can you "train" a submissive well enough that when stress or overload happens some semblance of normalcy survives? 
[20:37] <LadyMist> I think one can 
[20:37] <Flagg> Absolutely. 
[20:37] * MsDMeanr nods and listens 
[20:37] <MsDMeanr> how so? 
[20:38] <Flagg> If you can train a man to function under prolonged combat conditions, trining someone to put their own needs as secondary priorities is simple by comparison. 
[20:38] <MsDMeanr> what kinds of enforcements need to be in place in for this type of training? 
[20:38] <LadyMist> I think a sub can be trained to hold own the fort so to speak 
[20:38] <LadyMist> they need a strong sense of self 
[20:38] <Flagg> Romance and intimacy have to be very carefully judged. They interfere with training, in a general sense. 
[20:39] <MsDMeanr> does that include the confidence training. . . .that answered that! 
[20:39] <MsDMeanr> lol 
[20:39] * MsDMeanr smiles