Meeting People From Online

[19:36] * ravenshad says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions on BDSM the following rules apply.. 
[19:36] <ravenshad> Ahhh..gotta watch those teens yanno! 
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[19:37] <ravenshad> Tonight's topic is meeting people from online.... 
[19:37] <ravenshad> What are some things that should be kept in mind when deciding to meet someone from online in real life? 
[19:38] <_mizu_> they can be playing only, acting totaly diffrent 
[19:38] <ravenshad> good point mizu..very good point.. 
[19:38] <Soulhuntr> Have 2 backup plans... one if you DONT hit it off, and one if you DO. 
[19:39] <ravenshad> good idea Soul, I like that.. 
[19:39] <ravenshad> in the cyber medium, would you say that it is easier to lie to someone about your intentions, abilities and experiences? 
[19:39] <_mizu_> or meet in a neutral place 
[19:40] <_mizu_> very easy raven, you can not see them when they talk 
[19:40] <Soulhuntr> No. 
[19:40] <ravenshad> I like the meat in a neutral place idea mizu.. 
[19:40] <Soulhuntr> In a "real" life setting, peopel usually only see their prospective 'date' for a little bit at a time... 
[19:40] <Soulhuntr> so it is every bit as easy for them to decieve you. 
[19:40] <Soulhuntr> Example: 
[19:41] <Soulhuntr> If you decide to 'date' someone you know from BDSM clubs, you might have only spent 45 minutes TOTAL with him over a few visits before you go out. 
[19:41] <ravenshad> I don't know Soul...it's kind of hard to fool someone into thinking I am a man in real life...yet I can be a man online all I want, and no one would know the difference.. 
[19:42] <petinxtc> that's true raven, it's very easy to lie online 
[19:42] <Soulhuntr> ::shrugs:: That deception is no more or less important than a thousand opthers. 
[19:42] <Soulhuntr> Appearance lies are easier online, but for the important stuff it is just as easy to do in person. 
[19:43] <ravenshad> I don't know..I find it rather difficult to lie to someone's face..and find it fairly easy to detect lies when told to my face..yet I find it very difficult to detect lies from people I've met online.. 
[19:44] <_mizu_> true, you can not "read" a person on-line 
[19:44] <Soulhuntr> ::shrugs:: For you thats true. On average, it is clearly not. 
[19:44] <petinxtc> i agree raven, if a person won't look at you, they're usually lying... but online... who knows 
[19:44] <ravenshad> It seems to me that with the Internet gaining in popularity quite a few people have become involved in BDSM..and not all of them are "good" people... 
[19:44] <Soulhuntr> To put much stock in the face to face 'lie radar' is to imply that before online people where never decieved by a partner or spouse. 
[19:44] <Soulhuntr> That is patently untrue .. so it is perfectly possible to decieve in :reality". 
[19:44] <ravenshad> Actually Soul, Most people online I'm pretty good at reading..it jsut takes me longer to detect a lie.. 
[19:44] <AlstrBlck> not nec., petinxtc.  I have trouble looking someone right in the eyes, but that was because of my upbringing. 
[19:45] <ravenshad> No one implied that Soul...no one said that lying can not occur in real life nor was it said that it doesn't....we are discussing a particular medium..for a very good reason... 
[19:45] <petinxtc> true AB... i have trouble myself sometimes...but the important thingsare what matters 
[19:45] <^Ming> I agree with AB 
[19:45] <ravenshad> The Internet has brought a lot of people into this lifestyle, and many of those people are dangerous and others are getting hurt because they are being fed lies about this lifestyle which make them easy prey to injury and even death.. 
[19:46] <Soulhuntr> Ok.... but the question is "is it EASIER" to lie online. I dont see any reason to believe that, on average more peopel are decieved onlien than off. 
[19:46] <_mizu_> that is true raven 
[19:46] <AlstrBlck> I attended a parochial school in first and second grade, and got hit with a ruler many a times for "staring", so learned not to hold eye contact too long. 
[19:46] <Soulhuntr> I would challenge it actually, we have no hard evidence that injuries among "first meetings" from online are higher than any other medium. 
[19:46] <ravenshad> In my opinion it is easier..there is no worrying about meeting someone's eyes, there are no voice inflections which give away a lie, there is no sweat visible on to the person you are talking..all the body language that implies a lie is removed.. 
[19:47] <ravenshad> Maybe you don't Soul, but I do 
[19:47] <ravenshad> and I would like to share a couple stories if I may.. 
[19:47] <^Ming> Make sure the first meeting is safe... do not demand a lot... just a short lunch or something... no obligations until you see how the 'chemistry' in r/l is 
[19:47] <Soulhuntr> You have evidence? Actualy statistical evidence? Or just stories and hearsay? 
[19:48] <Soulhuntr> Additionaly point: The "dangerous" peopel who worry you have no problem lying. They don;t seem nervous or sweat when they do it. 
[19:49] <ravenshad> this is not heresay, it's eye witness accounts of what has happened to a friend of mine.. 
[19:49] <ravenshad> what happened to another friend of mine.. 
[19:49] <^Ming> hello talia... :-) 
[19:49] <ravenshad> Meeting people from online CAN be extremely dangerous and if that gets downlplayed, people get hurt.. 
[19:49] <ravenshad> My first example, Master also was a participant.. 
[19:50] <Soulhuntr> Ok.... I am interested in the stories, but they show anythign about an increased risk in online vs. offline. 
[19:50] <Soulhuntr> So the point is there IS danger, jsut like there is ANYTIME you meet someone you don;t know well. 
[19:50] <ravenshad> A friend of mine went out to dinner one night..met a couple female subs in her area, and a free dominant male.. 
[19:50] <Bugs42^> I think online has the tendancy to put you at a sometimes false at ease when you first meet real life 
[19:50] <ravenshad> The point is Soul, with the many idiots and abusive people using Cyber to get to other people, the risk is greatly increased.. 
[19:51] <ravenshad> add in the fact that those who are new to this lifestyle are EAGER to try everything NOW..and you have the set up for some major damage..and the stories are getting more frequent.. 
[19:51] * ravenshad waits before picking up again on the story.. 
[19:52] <ravenshad> ok..I shall continue 
[19:52] <ravenshad> as I said, a friend of mine wnet to dinner one night with a coupel female subs from her area and a single dominant.. 
[19:52] <ravenshad> One of the subs was collared to another dominant.. 
[19:53] <ravenshad> my friend, the two subs, and the dom hit it off well...they decided to meet again ..this time bringing the other dominant instead of the first.. 
[19:53] * ravenshad will assign names if need be..(not real names though) 
[19:53] <ravenshad> Anyway, this "dom" took it upon himself on a first meeting to slap my friend in the face because she was cracking jokes and being smart assed due to nervousness which she had warned him about.. 
[19:54] <ravenshad> he then tore a button of her shrit..and "claimed" her..saying that any submissive that is unowned is free to be "collared" and "Claimed" by any dominant.. 
[19:54] <ravenshad> Upon speaking with my friend and this guys sub..it was learned that him and his buddy *the other dominant* that many things were not right.. 
[19:55] <ravenshad> My friend got out of this situation with some help... 
[19:56] <ravenshad> My friend knew to be careful..kknew the right things to do..but my friend's desire to play and scene overrode better judgement ..and she almost got stuck with a dominant who thinks it is ok to have his sub gang raped without her consent as a punishment.. 
[19:56] <ravenshad> That is just one story from someone I know ... 
[19:57] <_mizu_> jezzz, sound's like he's learned from the Gor book's 
[19:57] <ravenshad> I run a web site.. 
[19:57] <ravenshad> and You wouldn't believe the amount of email I get from new subs asking such questions as 
[19:57] <ravenshad> "When should my dominant tell me personal details about himself? like his real name? we are suposed to meet in a couple days" 
[19:58] <ravenshad> "Is it right for a dominant to assume I will scene with him on our first meeting? we've only talked online for a few weeks" 
[19:58] <ravenshad> and on and on and on.. 
[19:58] <ntalia> even when it is not something like that, this place allows you to let down emotional defenses. when you meet someone or arrange to you've grown to trust them. too many people here lie. they can fool you for a very long time and destroy your heart. 
[19:58] <ravenshad> yes talia..or worse..take your life.. 
[19:59] <ravenshad> I used to say the things that others say..that online is no more dangerous than real life.. 
[19:59] <ravenshad> but as time has gone on, and I've seen my friends personally hurt physically, assaulted and all that..I have changed my point of view.. 
[19:59] <AlstrBlck> raven, it's like I said before in a discussion with you once, you have to look at the other person, and ask yourself "if we were both vanilla, would I want to be in a relationship with them?" 
[20:00] <petinxtc> but even vanilla relationships aren't that great AB 
[20:00] <ravenshad> exactly AB 
[20:00] <ravenshad> IT seems to me that there is a growing tendency to use BDSM as a means to get "free" sex ..kinky sex at that..by meeting people from online.. 
[20:01] <ntalia> even then syr, i will never trust people here as i once did. i will never give my heart again. not after what i've seen and heard and experienced.  
[20:01] <ravenshad> I don't want to scare anyone..not every meeting goes bad..the majority do go quite well..so please don't freak out.. 
[20:01] <ravenshad> but the danger does exist.. 
[20:01] <petinxtc> i met my Master online first.. we've been r/l for 6 months now 
[20:02] <ravenshad> I met my master online as well petinxtc..as I said, not all first meetings go badly.. 
[20:02] <ravenshad> in fact, the majority do go well.. 
[20:02] <ravenshad> but, it seems to me there is a growing number of predators out there..and the danger is getting a bit more real.. 
[20:02] <AlstrBlck> I met my first on-line sub a couple years back, and that was basically a disaster. 
[20:03] <ntalia> the majority of people in the world are good people if given the opportunity. 
[20:04] <_mizu_> there are, hell they even hit on me (giggle) 
[20:04] <^Ming> me too... 
[20:04] <Soulhuntr> So, to recap, you need to be careful, and use common sense. 
[20:05] <petinxtc> some people online will never get it though... they think if you're submissive it gives them rights to abuse you 
[20:05] <^Ming> Always use common sense... 
[20:05] <ravenshad> yes basically 
[20:05] <Bugs42^> exactly, use common sense 
[20:05] <_mizu_> yeap, that is about it Sir 
[20:05] <AlstrBlck> Hell,  I was hit on just a bit ago, and I got rid of them REAL quick.  hehehe Found a sure-fire way to ditch them... ;} 
[20:05] <ravenshad> but also that it seems to me that the dangers are getting a bit more "real".. 
[20:05] <petinxtc> in what way raven? 
[20:05] <ravenshad> I've not been online as long as you have Soul, but as I said..I've received so many email in the past two months from new subs to the lifestyle who are meeting their online doms for the first time in real life..asking me such questions as "when should he tell me his real name?" 
[20:05] <Soulhuntr> Here we have a medium that THRIVES on rumor and stories of sadness (the net), why wouldn't the panic stories circualte fast here? 
[20:06] <Bugs42^> well, there are more newbies that are making it dangerous and paying attention 
[20:06] <ravenshad> The interesting point is Soul I've been online almost three years..and I almost never heard "horror" stories with any more frequency than I did in real life.. 
[20:06] <Soulhuntr> The number of peopel meeting is growing, that does NOT increase the risk. 
[20:06] <ravenshad> but in the past couple months, that has changed drastically.. 
[20:06] <^Ming> I think IRC is similar to r/l meeting places... We must use the same caution 
[20:06] <Soulhuntr> Exactly Ming. 
[20:07] <Soulhuntr> No reason to panic, or to spread panic. 
[20:07] <ravenshad> How can the increased number of new people who think they know everything, and new people who are trying to be a "good" sub and obey everything...not increase the risk?> 
[20:07] <Soulhuntr> If peopel act like adults, all will be well. 
[20:07] <AlstrBlck> Mind if I tell a story that just happened about meeting for the first time? 
[20:07] <ravenshad> problem is, not everyone acts like adults.. 
[20:07] <Soulhuntr> Risk is a matter of percentages. More people doing something means more people will get hurt... but the ODDS stay the same. 
[20:07] <ravenshad> and some people who try to, and do act like adults, get hurt because they are suckered in by someone using BDSM as a means to attain easy victims.. 
[20:07] <ravenshad> go ahead AB 
[20:08] <Soulhuntr> To imply that this is some growing problem of "predators" is to create pnaic. 
[20:08] <AlstrBlck> I know this couple in town, I babysat for them a few weeks back, so they could go to a meeting of the #Indiana channel.  Before they both left, they asked me my opinion of the people they were going to be meeting, and Ii gave them my honest opinion, that the majority of the people in that channel were assholes. 
[20:08] <ravenshad> To ignore it's existence and it's frequency is to create a false sense of safety.. 
[20:08] <Bugs42^> I don't know about the odds, but I would think as more new and inexperienced people enter the lifestyle that the chances of things happening would increase 
[20:08] <Soulhuntr> ::smiles:: But no one is saying it doesn't exist :) I am simply saying it is no more or less prevelant online. 
[20:09] <AlstrBlck> They both refused to believe me, because the people had been so nice to them.  when they got back, they both told me, alone, that the people there were stuck-up snobs, who thought they were better than everyone else. 
[20:09] <ravenshad> Hello LE, LTNS ..sorry i got dumped and missed your entrance.. 
[20:09] <ravenshad> I can't agree with that anymore Soul..my experience has shown me that it is indeed becoming more prevelant.. 
[20:09] <ravenshad> Good point AB..  
[20:09] <AlstrBlck> So as you can see, it's not just a BDSM problem, it's a problem across the board - you stick a keyboard in someone's hand, and suddenly they develop a god-complex where they think they are better than everyone else. 
[20:10] <Soulhuntr> You mean that NO group of peopel in the real world think they ar ebtter than others? 
[20:10] <Soulhuntr> Funny, I thought that was common. 
[20:10] <AlstrBlck> THIS is why I prefer the BDSM channels over the vanilla channels, because the people here are more honest and less stuck up than the others.  BUT, this is my opinion only. 
[20:10] <ravenshad> There are plenty of people who think they are better than anyone else but that doesn't make it right..nor does it do anything to further tolerance or acceptance in real life.. 
[20:11] <AlstrBlck> Soul, I don't think I am better than anyone in this channel, Dom or sub. 
[20:11] <ravenshad> Depends on the channel AB 
[20:11] <Soulhuntr> I have also seen no reason to think BDSM people are mor ehonest than any others. 
[[20:11] <AlstrBlck> And that's true, raven.  Those Gorean channels can be hard-assers. <LOL> 
[20:11] <ravenshad> LOL yes they can be..but some of them aren't too bad.. :) 
[20:12] <ntalia> i think most BDSM people try to be honest, but after a time, i see people thinking that on line experience counts towards r/l experience. it is not the same.  
[20:12] <^Ming> I think honesty can be determined on IRC... it just takes time and effort 
[20:12] <ravenshad> I agree talia.. 
[20:12] <ravenshad> and there are quite a few people who lie about how much experience they do have.. 
[20:13] <ravenshad> so what precautions should a person take when meeting someone from online? 
[20:13] <ntalia> Ming, i used to believe that, but i've found out i've been lied to by people i took time to get to know. 
[20:13] <Soulhuntr> Use common sense. 
[20:14] <ntalia> but common sense can be difficult when meeting someone who is geographically undesirable. 
[20:14] <Soulhuntr> Why would distance matter? 
[20:15] <ntalia> because when you fly to meet someone, then s/he knows where you are staying. 
[20:15] <ntalia> when you fly to meet someone, you don't have your safety net that you have when you meet someone locally. 
[20:16] <ntalia> when i've met strangers here, friends knew where we were going. 
[20:16] <Soulhuntr> Ok... but the hotel is not a bad safety net. 
[20:16] <ntalia> the hotel restaurant is not. 
[20:16] <Soulhuntr> You fly in, you meet them, you get to know them a bit. 
[20:16] <AlstrBlck> Soul, how often can you afford a hotel?  And how often do you fly? 
[20:16] <Soulhuntr> As often as I need to. If I can't I don;t go. 
[20:17] <Soulhuntr> Thats common sense. 
[20:17] <AlstrBlck> I know for a fact I can't afford to fly at all. 
[20:17] <AlstrBlck> But I do so want to meet a lot of the people here.  People I've known for a long time, and have never met. 
[20:18] <ntalia> and if you are meeting a stranger, what of things like rohyponol. 
[20:18] <Soulhuntr> ::nods:: And it will take time to do so. If you really knwo them and trust them then you can dispense with some of that. 
[20:18] <ntalia> if a friend knows to expect a call, they can track you down after the fact. 
[20:18] <ntalia> but if you are beyond the reach of your friends, then you lack part of the safety thing. 
[20:19] <Soulhuntr> A guy whos going to drug you and kill you will be just as capable of doing it in your own town as in nebraska. 
[20:19] <Soulhuntr> Your friends don;t offer much, if any , real safety. 
[20:19] <AlstrBlck> Soul, you want to hear how fragile safety nets are?  I've had TWO female friends slipped the "date rape" drug, the one as recent as last week. 
[20:19] <Soulhuntr> How many women have been beaten and raped in the same HOUSE as their friends? 
[20:20] <AlstrBlck> The first one, FIVE of us were sitting right there, and we NEVER knew it had happened.  
[20:20] <Soulhuntr> Alstr - I am NOT saying this is SAFE. I >AM< saying the online part is not the main problem. 
[20:20] <AlstrBlck> Soul, you have the same people who lurked in the alleys at night looking for someone now doing the same online. 
[20:21] <AlstrBlck> You want the url of a webpage where the guys meet women online, get them drunk, slip them a pill, and then post their nude pix on the net?  Think these girls felt in danger going out with a nice looking guy? 
[20:22] <ntalia> it is true Soulhuntr, the on line part is not the problem necessarily. but it does get people to let down their guards because they feel they already know a person. 
[20:22] <Soulhuntr> ::smiles:: Send me the URL, I probably know the webmaster. 
[20:22] <Soulhuntr> I know at least 3 webmasters who have sites liek that... they are fake. 
[20:23] <AlstrBlck> what about the sites along the lines of NAMBLA?  How safe are those?   How many times in recent years have you heard about "troubled teens" making friends with someone on the net, who then sends them a bus ticket, and the kid is never heard from again? 
[20:26] <AlstrBlck> Well, the discussion has seemed to died down already... <L> 
[20:27] <ntalia> yes. it has . 
[20:27] <volsung> a rather weighty topic Sir 
[20:28] <AlstrBlck> I know... 
[20:30] <AlstrBlck> well, since the discussion has seemed to have died down after such a heavy exchange, unless anyone else has anything to say or add, I think we'll wrap it up early tonight...