Presents:
BDSM Discussion 17
Collars:
What They Mean & Why We Use Them
All Comments Posted Here With Permission Of The Participants
[19:57]
* ravenshad says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions
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[19:58] <ravenshad> Tonight's topic is on collaring..what is it and why do it...
[19:58] <ravenshad> so..first question, what is a collar?
[19:59] <fae{NR}> technically speaking, a collar is any piece of jewlery that is worn tightly around the neck
[19:59] <Jackal{s}> not sure that why we are here
[19:59] <Jackal{s}> Does it have to be tight
[20:00] <ravenshad> I agree fae..
[20:00] <fae{NR}> personally, i would say tight enough that it can not be taken off by slipping over the head, most people would say lays against most of the neck
[20:00] <ravenshad> usually Jackal..a collar is fairly tight..not too tight as to restrict blood flow..but close fitting so it can be felt easily...
[20:00] <Jackal{s}> Can a necklace be considered a collar?
[20:00] <ravenshad> yes Jackal..many people use necklaces as a collar that can easily be worn in
[20:00] <ravenshad> "vanilla" territory..<giggle.
[20:00] * fae{NR} looks at raven who just stole what she was about to say and gryns *
[20:00] <ravenshad> What other things do people use as collars?
[20:01] <ravenshad> sorry gf..
[20:01] <Jackal{s}> skylar.. wonders for her professional attire
[20:01] <fae{NR}> i gryned because i don't mind in the least gf, don't want to hog all the comments
[20:01] <Wyldkard> bracelets are a good example
[20:01] <fae{NR}> chokers for females
[20:01] <fae{NR}> maybe with something worked on the inside, like Submissive/Slave or thier Dominants name
[20:01] * ravenshad giggles..thanks fae.. :)
[20:02] <fae{NR}> np gf
[20:02] <fae{NR}> anklets can also be used, much easier to hide on a male submissive
[20:02] <kittn{L}> My collar is my ankle bracelet even though Master gave me a necklace at the same time...it is the ankle bracelet that is considered by him as my "collar"
[20:02] <ravenshad> I have a very nice necklace that I bought way before I knew I was a sub or what a collar was..it is a 1/4 wide..sterling silver with tricolor gold plating..it is close fitting and very heavy..it feels wonderful as a collar..and no one knows ..
[20:02] <ravenshad> what about rings?
[20:02] <ravenshad> I mean rings that go on fingers..
[20:03] <AlstrBlck> what about tattoo's?
[20:03] <Jackal{s}> I feel that is ok if never taken off{s}
[20:03] <kittn{L}> Hmmm just for me...I wouldn't consider a tatoo as a "collar" but I guess it could be
[20:03] <ravenshad> tattoos can be a mark of ownership and therefor considered as a collar..
[20:04] <ravenshad> but..would you say a collar is something that one can "feel" at all times..or easily see?
[20:04] <ravenshad> something external?'
[20:04] <Jackal{s}> both
[20:04] <fae{NR}> rings i'd be hesitant on for collars, personally. A collar for me is something that can not be easily removed (even if bracelets/anklets/necklases don't lock, they can't just be slipped off to go swimming or do dishes like rings are to prevent from being lost)
[20:04] <ravenshad> good point fae..
[20:04] <fae{NR}> i'd say a collar is something that can be felt
[20:04] <ravenshad> I have nipple rings as my daily collar..
[20:05] <ravenshad> and am getting lucite ones so that I don't have to remove them for surgery.. :)))
[20:05] <kittn{L}> Hmmmmmm is nonremoval a criteria??? I have to take off my anklet when I rollerblade...
[20:05] <fae{NR}> the seen depends on the relationships, i've had a number of collars that i couldn't let be seen
[20:05] <ravenshad> I don't see a collar as having a requirement that it can't be removed kittn..
[20:05] <ravenshad> but many prefer ones that can't be rmoved
20:05] <fae{NR}> like i said, they can be removed, but have to be unfastened (whether locked on or a standard clasp doesn't matter)
[20:05] <kittn{L}> Whew!!! I'm glad...I'd hate to have to rollerblade with it on...it HURTS
[20:06] * ravenshad giggles..
[20:06] <ravenshad> why give someone a collar?
[20:06] <Jackal{s}> what is the meaning of a collar?
[20:07] <ravenshad> The best analagy I have found for the meaning of a collarJackal is think of a wedding ring..
[20:07] <Jackal{s}> {skylar} wants to know why we give or get them
[20:07] <kittn{L}> There are many meanings....to many different people
[20:07] <ravenshad> it is a sign of the comittment between the people in the relationship..a sign of ownership..and the type of relationship..
[20:07] <ravenshad> I think many give them because of what it symbolizes to them..it is the equivalent of a wedding band in vanilla terms..
[20:08] <kittn{L}> To some it is like a wedding band...to some it is like and engagement ring...to some it is like going steady...
[20:08] <fae{NR}> Giving the collar is a person placing their trust in the person receiving the collar to obey them (all the time or at arranged times, differs) and let them know if something is wrong
[20:08] <Jackal{s}> So basicly it is what I want it to mean in my relationship with skylar
[20:09] <NoirRose> I think collars tend to be discussed a bit more than a wedding ring does, though
[20:09] <ravenshad> yes Jackal :)
[20:09] <kittn{L}> Exactly Jackal...whatever you decide it to mean...
[20:09] <ravenshad> that is for sure NoirRose..why do you think that is?
[20:09] <fae{NR}> Receiving the collar is a person placing their trust in the other to take care of them when they need taken care of, to teach and guide them, and of course to serve the giver
[20:09] <fae{NR}> (in my opinion)
[20:09] <NoirRose> I'd hope it's because there needs to be a lot of discussion to make sure than no-one gets hurt...
[20:09] <Jackal{s}> Thank you fae
[20:10] <NoirRose> And BDSM in general tend to discuss relationships more than vanilla relationships. (rampant generalization)
[20:10] <Jackal{s}> {s} agrees with NoirRose
[20:10] * kittn{L} smiles
[20:10] <ravenshad> I agree NR..
[20:11] <fae{NR}> (general note, fae is in a serious/silly mode tonight)
[20:11] <ravenshad> Would you say that a collar represents more of a responsibility for the sub or dom than a non-collared relationship does?
[20:11] <NoirRose> I'd say it represents more responsibility for both.
[20:11] <Jackal{s}> {s} I have heard of ceremonies for collars and wonders why they are done
[20:11] <fae{NR}> i'd say both, it's a new/the next level of trust in the relationship
[20:12] <fae{NR}> {s}, very true, many ppl in the lifestyle go through rituals to show how much it means, in addition to, or in place of marriage.
[20:12] <ravenshad> They are done because the people involved want them done.. for the samne reason we have wedding ceremonies and receptions..to share the joy with others..
[20:12] *** kittn{L} has quit IRC (Read error to kittn{L}[98AE3721.ipt.aol.com]: Connection reset by peer)
[20:12] <Jackal{s}> We agree with that.. as married couple this truly is the next level for us to continue to grow.
[20:13] <ravenshad> Not everyone has a ceremony though
[20:13] <Jackal{s}> Thank you ravenshad and fae.. I understand know.{s}
[20:13] <ravenshad> good :))
[20:14] <fae{NR}> it's also a ritual that belongs in our subculture that mainstream really doesn't have a parallel too (since marriage is also in our sub-culture)
[20:14] <ravenshad> What responsibilities does a collar place on the relatiosnhip?
[20:14] <fae{NR}> so it helps us to define that "this is who we are and how we are"
[20:14] <kittn{L}> <smile> keep getting booted..Thanks mizu
[20:14] <Jackal{s}> The dom can not stop in their responsibility to the sub
[20:15] * fae{NR} belatedly waves to AB and swats his butt for not staying long enough *
[20:16] <Jackal{s}> {s} feels that she has to work better and harder to keep my Master happy and loved
[20:16] <ravenshad> Does a collar give a sense of permanency to the relationship?
[20:17] <Jackal{s}> I think so.
[20:17] <_mizu> yes, it's alway's there
[20:17] <kittn{L}> My collar is a symbol of our commitment to each other... but is not as strong a symbol as a wedding ring...
[20:17] <fae{NR}> it gives a sense of a deeper relationship with more trust involved...i'd be hesitant on the permanency but i'd say it may for most be more binding than a marriage
[20:17] <Jackal{s}> {s} thinks it would be as permanent as the marriage should be
[20:17] * NoirRose nods at Jackal. I agree
[20:18] <ravenshad> to me kittn, a collar is a stronger symbol than my wedding rings ever were...I'm not exactly sure why though..
[20:18] <kittn{L}> This is where the differences in each couple come up...I am committed..but we are not prepared for marriage...
[20:18] <ravenshad> I agree there Jackal..
[20:19] <fae{NR}> kittn, i actually agree with that, but we're holding off marriage for other reasonas as well
[20:19] <ravenshad> May I ask if you live with your master?
[20:19] <kittn{L}> but at the same time...it's not like we are just dating either...
[20:19] <kittn{L}> Me??? no...we are long-distance...
[20:20] <ravenshad> Ahhh..I understand..was just curious.. :)
[20:20] <ravenshad> This is something that comes up alot..
[20:20] <ravenshad> a collar is a comittment to a relationship..
[20:20] <ravenshad> a physical symbol of the responsibilities of each party..
[20:20] <Jackal{s}> {skylar} I think that marriage is a form of collaring and the next step would be deeper and more binding
[20:20] <ravenshad> yet..people continually say that it is not the same as a marraige..why do you think that is?
[20:20] <kittn{L}> We have discussed moving together when the time is right...
[20:20] <ravenshad> well Jackal, there are such things as D/s weddings..
[20:21] * ravenshad smiles..I understand kittn.. :)
[20:21] <_mizu> because the bond is one of a commitment of service to another
[20:21] <Jackal{s}> What is a D/s weddinng and what happens
[20:21] <kittn{L}> I think collaring is getting a "disposable" reputation because of all the on-line stuff
[20:22] <fae{NR}> For fear of sounding cynical, a divorce has a lot more legal ramifactions than a collar revoking or casting off
[20:22] * kittn{L} agrees with fae
[20:22] <ravenshad> Well it is very similar to a regular wedding..but included in the vows are the terms of the D/s relationship..as well, a collar is usually placed in addition to wedding rings..
[20:22] * Jackal{s} agrees with fae
[20:22] <Jackal{s}> thank you ravenshad that makes sense
[20:23] <kittn{L}> I have never attended one, but I have read the ceremonies..and they are more beautiful than any wedding...
[20:23] <ravenshad> you're welcome jackal..:)
[20:23] <ravenshad> Jackal even..
[20:23] <ravenshad> yes I agree kittn..
[20:23] <ravenshad> it seems that the ceremonies that go with BDSM are more involved..I think it's because the people are more in touch with themselves and their desires..
[20:24] <kittn{L}> I would love to have both kinds of weddings....but I don't know that Master will go for it...LOL
[20:25] * ravenshad giggles..he might kittn.. :)
[20:25] <kittn{L}> There is more beautiful symbolism in the BDSM ceremonies...even the collaring ceremonies...
[20:25] <ravenshad> why do you think that is kittn?
[20:25] <Jackal{s}> Kittn.. ask permission of your Master to express your desires on the weddings
[20:26] <kittn{L}> hmmmm i am not sure there are really more...maybe there is just deeper meaning...
[20:26] <ravenshad> or..better understanding of the meaning behind the symbols?
[20:26] <kittn{L}> maybe that too...
[20:26] <Jackal{s}> could be
[20:26] <kittn{L}> I have already expressed my desires as far as a vanilla ceremony go...
[20:27] <kittn{L}> Oh well...I have time... I am sure there will be lots of discussion before it happens...
[20:28] <Jackal{s}> things will work out kittn
[20:28] <ravenshad> Here is a question that doesn't seem to come up often..if a relationship breaks up, who gets the collar?
[20:28] <Jackal{s}> I would say the Dom
[20:29] <kittn{L}> The sub does....just like an engagement ring...it is a gift
[20:29] <Jackal{s}> skylar agrees with that one
[20:29] <kittn{L}> LOL Thanks skylar
[20:29] <ravenshad> I've always been taught that the collar is returned to the dominant..
[20:30] <ravenshad> the collar, is owned by the dominant, and given to the sub to mark ownership..if the relationship ends, the collar is supposed to go back to the dominant..it is their collar ..
[20:30] <kittn{L}> You know...I would think it would depend on the collar...
[20:30] <fae{NR}> i'd say that depends on the relationship, who broke it up and why
[20:30] <ravenshad> though..many people do let the sub keep the collar..
[20:30] <Jackal{s}> yes I think you are correct in a ceeremonial relationship
[20:30] <ravenshad> not so much ceremonial Jackal..as much as it is formal..
[20:30] <Amax> But does the sub feel odd about wearing it after?
[20:30] <kittn{L}> Just as an engagement ring that is a family heirloom may be returned to the man...
[20:31] <ravenshad> well, the return of a collar is one difference between vanilla and BDSM..
[20:31] <fae{NR}> depends on what type of collar Amax
[20:31] <kittn{L}> Amax....I can't wear the collar of my former Master...it is in a box though and is very special to me
[20:31] <ravenshad> I would feel very odd yes Amax..but the one collar that I have been told to keep, has been placed in my "memory" box..
[20:31] <Jackal{s}> I would want the collar returned back to me
[20:32] * kittn{L} nods to raven
[20:32] <kittn{L}> My former Master didn't want it back...or anything else he bought...
[20:33] <Jackal{s}> I guess it should be decided before the collaring happens?????
[20:34] <fae{NR}> actually, many things can happen in the relationship that could change that decision
[20:34] <ravenshad> I think it should be discussed before a collaring happens, yes..
[20:34] * NoirRose nods at Jackal.
[20:34] <NoirRose> But, like fae said, many things can happen to change someone's mind
[20:34] *** kittn{L} has quit IRC (Read error to kittn{L}[98CF402F.ipt.aol.com]: Connection reset by peer)
[20:35] <Jackal{s}> Before collaring are there not a set of rules that both the Dom/sub agree upon?
[20:35] <ravenshad> there should be yes...
[20:36] <fae{NR}> Jackal, yes, most of the time...but the collaring typically changes some of those rules for new rules which are still in their rough form and have to be polished
[20:37] <Jackal{s}> Then this is one thing I am really trying to lear more about
[20:37] <NoirRose> And sometimes the rules are different depending on what the collar is made out of, too...at least, for wearing th collar itself
[20:37] <ravenshad> do you think that collars have lost some of their uniqueness and are being misused?
[20:37] <NoirRose> Yes.
[20:37] * kittn{L} does
[20:37] <Jackal{s}> yes
[20:38] <NoirRose> There's a lot of people who don't know what the significance is, and they wear it as jewlery.
[20:38] <Jackal{s}> I see kids wearing collars all the time
[20:38] <NoirRose> Then again, I wear one as decoration too.
[20:38] * NoirRose grins
[20:38] <fae{NR}> collars have taken on a variety of meanings, as many things in society have
[20:38] <Jackal{s}> I agree NoirRose
[20:39] <fae{NR}> to say their uniqueness is taken away, yes i agree...to say they are being misused i'd actually have to disagree
[20:39] <ravenshad> Do you think that some see a collar as nothing major and find it very easy to take a collar, give it up then take another one?
[20:39] * kittn{L} listens to fae
[20:39] <NoirRose> That one I'd have to agree with.
[20:39] <Jackal{s}> yes
[20:40] <ravenshad> I see the tendency of "velcro collars" as a misuse of the collar..
[20:40] * kittn{L} agrees with raven
[20:40] <ravenshad> it shows a cheapeness for the lifestyle and I think a true lack of understanding for oneself..
[20:40] <Jackal{s}> What about the heavy metal head kids who wear them?
[20:40] <ravenshad> they don't know what they are Jackal..to them they signify something else entirely..
[20:41] * NoirRose nods at raven
[20:41] <ravenshad> I do think that the fact that wearing such things has become fashionable, has detracted slightly from what those in BDSM view a collar to mean..
[20:41] <ravenshad> but this could have benefits..people will get used to seeing such things on people..
[20:41] <NoirRose> There's a plus side to that too...
[20:41] <Jackal{s}> I understand now....Then a collar is sometjing special
[20:41] <NoirRose> It's become more socially acceptable to wear a collar in public
[20:41] <ravenshad> so if a person into BDSM wears a collar in public..they would probably be less apt to attract extra attention..
[20:41] <lil`dragn> what about temp collars or training collars.....could those be considered velcro collars by others???
[20:41] <ravenshad> in BDSM..yes it is Jackal..but to those kids that wear them, they are too..just not the same kind of special..
[20:42] <ravenshad> I agree NR!!! :))
[20:42] <ravenshad> thay can be dragn..but not if it is known that it is a temporary or training collar..
[20:42] <NoirRose> I wouldn't think so, dragon.
[20:42] <ravenshad> some people see those as "fake" collars..and do not believe they exist..when in fact they do ..
[20:42] <Jackal{s}> So what ever the Dom/sub decided on can be there collar
[20:43] <ravenshad> yes Jackal :)
[20:43] <fae{NR}> yes, it's more of a mutual understanding and symbolism than an actual physical collar around the neck
[20:43] * NoirRose nods at Jackal
[20:44] <Jackal{s}> Thanks I am starting to understand this better now
[20:44] <lil`dragn> I have even seen a ring be used as an everyday collar.....that is what the Dom chose to use.....just because it isn't around the neck doesn't mean it isn't a collar
[20:44] <fae{NR}> n/p Jackal, that's what these discussions are for
[20:44] <ravenshad> Do you think that training collars exist and if so, are they real collars?
[20:45] <fae{NR}> training collars imply to me just that, training...they're real,but not as deep a commitment...
[20:45] <NoirRose> I would, raven
[20:45] <lil`dragn> they are real collars......or as real at the Dom/sub choose them to be
[20:45] <Jackal{s}> What is the diffrence between a training collar and a collar?
[20:45] <fae{NR}> anologous in some ways to engagement rings
[20:45] <ravenshad> I think they are real..
[20:45] <ravenshad> a training collar is worn while the sub is in training..it does not represent a solo comitted relationship..
[20:45] <fae{NR}> a training collar is a trial period if you will, before the actuall full commitment...sort of a build up
[20:46] <lil`dragn> if the Dom and sub do not see them as real collars...than they are not real.....
[20:46] <ravenshad> it can lead to a permanent collar if the sub earns it and the dom grants it..or it could be a temporary agreement between a sub and his/her mentor to recieve training in BDSM
[20:46] <ravenshad> good point dragn.. :)
[20:46] <Jackal{s}> So a Dom has to grant the sub a collar?
[20:47] <fae{NR}> yes!
[20:47] <NoirRose> Yes!
[20:47] <Jackal{s}> Tell me more about the training period?
[20:47] <kittn{L}> Thanks fae <smile>
[20:47] <lil`dragn> sometimes a sub might request a collar.....
[20:47] <ravenshad> yes Jackal
[20:47] <fae{NR}> but it's still up to the Dom whether to grant said collar or not
[20:47] <lil`dragn> but the Dom is still the one who grants it.....
[20:48] <ravenshad> a sub can beg or request a collar..but it is the dom's decision on whether or not they want to own that particular sub..
[20:48] <Jackal{s}> How does one train?
[20:48] * NoirRose nods
[20:48] <ravenshad> ahh..training..a whole nother topic.. :)
[20:48] <ravenshad> some have a set period of training time..with formal arrangements made for such..
[20:48] <ravenshad> during training the sub learns the limits of the dom..his/her preferences etc..
[20:49] <ravenshad> formal training eventually has an end..
[20:49] <ravenshad> but..the general consensus of training is that it is an ongoing process that never really ends..
[20:49] <Jackal{s}> OK can we have a discussion night on training?
[20:49] <ravenshad> it is the learning process.. :)
[20:49] <fae{NR}> *psst* raven, think we might have next discussion on training?
[20:49] <ravenshad> yes..I will do that two weeks from now..I want to cover meeting people from online next week..
[20:49] * ravenshad smiles..two weeks fae.. :)
[20:49] * fae{NR} gryns *
[20:49] <kittn{L}> Awwwwwww I'm gonna miss it...I work next Sunday...
[20:49] <fae{NR}> s'okay
[20:50] <Jackal{s}> Thank you raven
[20:50] <ravenshad> the sunday after kittn
[20:50] <ravenshad> welcome Jackal..
[20:50] <kittn{L}> Nope...I was talking about meeting people from on-line
[20:50] <ravenshad> Jackal..feel free to post your questions to the list as well..I'm sure they will answer them :)
[20:51] <ravenshad> should a collar ever be used as a weapon in an arugment?
[20:51] <NoirRose> Never
[20:51] <fae{NR}> not at all
[20:51] <kittn{L}> Hmmmm how would it be used as a weapon...???
[20:52] <ravenshad> ok..say you have an argument with your dominant..he/she has done something or said something which really hurt you
[20:52] * kittn{L} listening
[20:52] <ravenshad> should the submissive use the collar as a weapon by giving it back because of a fight..or saying something like, if you don't do this I will return the collar...
[20:53] <kittn{L}> Sounds kinda like a dysfunctional relationship to me...
[20:53] <ravenshad> I agree kittn..
[20:53] <ravenshad> should one respect the collar?
[20:53] <lil`dragn> isn't that like...disrespct for the collar??? and what it represents??
[20:54] <ravenshad> yes..
[20:56] <kittn{L}> Hmmmmmm don't you think the opposite happens more...that the Dom uses the collar to pressure the sub to do something?
[20:56] <ravenshad> some doms do that..and I think it is just as disrespectful of the collar..
[20:57] <kittn{L}> Me too...the old "Obey or I will take back my collar" is not in the true spirit of D/s
[20:59] <lil`dragn> some Doms that are not Doms but abusive people using BDSM will use the collar as a weapon......and make the sub afraid....specially if the Dom has .... brain washed the sub
[21:08] <ravenshad> so..does anyone lse have questions or comments about collars?
[21:08] * `Daemon` nods a hello to ravenshad...
[21:08] <lil^un> what has been the general gist of the topic
[21:09] <lil^un> ?
[21:10] <ravenshad> well, it has centered on collars..why we use them, what they signify, have they become a "fad", can they be misused and who they belong to ...
[21:10] * lil^un nods.
[21:11] <`Daemon`> and what do the signify to you subs?
[21:11] <lil^un> i guess wha ti really meant was, what is the general concensus of the folks here about collars. ...good bad, ugly?
[21:11] <ravenshad> to me, a collar, signifies the comittment between master and myself and that I am owned.
[21:11] <ravenshad> good :)
[21:11] * lil^un finds that online collars (particluarly when they are ONLY online) are often transiant.
[21:12] <ravenshad> transient?
[21:12] * ravenshad thinks velcro collars
[21:12] * `Daemon` listens patiently to the lil^un...
[21:12] * lil^un nods. that the average online life of a collar is about 4 months. *nods* that is pretty much how they can be viewed sis.
[21:12] * lil^un admits...
[21:12] <ravenshad> this is true...
[21:13] <ravenshad> I think that's because online the relationship isn't as easy to maintain...
[21:13] <lil^un> there are plenty of onliners that are serious and take the committment seriously. and these do last longer...but unfortunately there are sooooo many Doms and more often subs, searching for the prestige of a collar.
[21:13] * Amax nods to kitten once more
[21:13] <ravenshad> as well, there are quite a few players online..
[21:13] <ravenshad> I agree lil
[21:13] * kittn{L} smiles a third time and growls to herself over her connection
[21:15] <lil^un> rl collarings are much a committment, personally, as marriage. finding that level of committment online is difficult.
[21:16] * lil^un gaks as she realizes she didn't put a BIT of sugar in her tea...afk for a moment
[21:16] <colt> i agree lil un..
[21:16] <kittn{L}> This is true lil...although there are those who find each other here...
[21:16] * `Daemon` nos silently in agreemetn with lil...
[21:16] <kittn{L}> and then begin R/T
[21:17] <`Daemon`> yes, the problem is though... many look for a collar on-line with no intent of rl and often don't expect it to last long...
[21:18] <`Daemon`> in any event, it is very refreshing to seeing those who take a true commitment...
[21:19] * lil^un wonders what sort of effect the GOR roleplaying folks have had on online collaring....meaning, they toss collars around with absolutely no care whatso ever. and unfortunately oftentimes, many folks (subs in particular) get exposed to GOR first.
[21:19] * kittn{L} knows nothing about Gor
[21:19] <colt> GOR?
[21:19] <`Daemon`> much of collaring though has takin' a parallel course to marrige... in that many tend to just get married for the convience rather than the true commitment for which it should be intended...
[21:19] <`Daemon`> GOR=Gorean
[21:20] <colt> :)
[21:21] <kittn{L}> I agree Daemon..I think wedding rings have been almost made "velcro" too...just not quite as much
[21:22] * lil^un nods. the whole basis of committment isn't there. so many go into a collaring with the idea..."this is only online, if i don't like it i can just change my nick"
[21:23] <kittn{L}> <smiles> I had the same screenname for the first 2 years I was on...
[21:23] <kittn{L}> I only changed it for Master...and I don't intend to change it again...
[21:23] <`Daemon`> I applaud your commitment kittn....
[21:24] * lil^un gets easily bored with her nick LOL.
[21:24] <kittn{L}> I used to know a Daemon on AOL...
[21:24] <`Daemon`> nah? really?
[21:24] <colt> its a nice nick.. :)
[21:24] <`Daemon`> mmm, fraid it ain't me, kittn...
[21:25] <kittn{L}> OK...just wondering...you never know who you will run into here..
Session Close: Sun May 09 21:26:47 1999
[19:57] <ravenshad> you must be of legal age to participate, if you are not, please leave. Legal age being 18 or 21 depending on your location
[19:57] <ravenshad> no trolling will be tolerated, this is not a singles night, it is a discussion night
[19:57] <ravenshad> if you troll you will be kicked and possibly banned
[19:57] <ravenshad> be polite when speaking and do not flame anyone. You can disagree with an idea, but do not attack the person making the idea. Flamers, will be kicked
[19:57] <ravenshad> all statements are publishable on the web site, with nicks changed (at your request, email webmaster@leathernroses.com if you don't want your nick used.) If an email request is not recieved, that will be taken as consent to post the log in it's entirety using the nicknames.
[19:58] <ravenshad> Tonight's topic is on collaring..what is it and why do it...
[19:58] <ravenshad> so..first question, what is a collar?
[19:59] <fae{NR}> technically speaking, a collar is any piece of jewlery that is worn tightly around the neck
[19:59] <Jackal{s}> not sure that why we are here
[19:59] <Jackal{s}> Does it have to be tight
[20:00] <ravenshad> I agree fae..
[20:00] <fae{NR}> personally, i would say tight enough that it can not be taken off by slipping over the head, most people would say lays against most of the neck
[20:00] <ravenshad> usually Jackal..a collar is fairly tight..not too tight as to restrict blood flow..but close fitting so it can be felt easily...
[20:00] <Jackal{s}> Can a necklace be considered a collar?
[20:00] <ravenshad> yes Jackal..many people use necklaces as a collar that can easily be worn in
[20:00] <ravenshad> "vanilla" territory..<giggle.
[20:00] * fae{NR} looks at raven who just stole what she was about to say and gryns *
[20:00] <ravenshad> What other things do people use as collars?
[20:01] <ravenshad> sorry gf..
[20:01] <Jackal{s}> skylar.. wonders for her professional attire
[20:01] <fae{NR}> i gryned because i don't mind in the least gf, don't want to hog all the comments
[20:01] <Wyldkard> bracelets are a good example
[20:01] <fae{NR}> chokers for females
[20:01] <fae{NR}> maybe with something worked on the inside, like Submissive/Slave or thier Dominants name
[20:01] * ravenshad giggles..thanks fae.. :)
[20:02] <fae{NR}> np gf
[20:02] <fae{NR}> anklets can also be used, much easier to hide on a male submissive
[20:02] <kittn{L}> My collar is my ankle bracelet even though Master gave me a necklace at the same time...it is the ankle bracelet that is considered by him as my "collar"
[20:02] <ravenshad> I have a very nice necklace that I bought way before I knew I was a sub or what a collar was..it is a 1/4 wide..sterling silver with tricolor gold plating..it is close fitting and very heavy..it feels wonderful as a collar..and no one knows ..
[20:02] <ravenshad> what about rings?
[20:02] <ravenshad> I mean rings that go on fingers..
[20:03] <AlstrBlck> what about tattoo's?
[20:03] <Jackal{s}> I feel that is ok if never taken off{s}
[20:03] <kittn{L}> Hmmm just for me...I wouldn't consider a tatoo as a "collar" but I guess it could be
[20:03] <ravenshad> tattoos can be a mark of ownership and therefor considered as a collar..
[20:04] <ravenshad> but..would you say a collar is something that one can "feel" at all times..or easily see?
[20:04] <ravenshad> something external?'
[20:04] <Jackal{s}> both
[20:04] <fae{NR}> rings i'd be hesitant on for collars, personally. A collar for me is something that can not be easily removed (even if bracelets/anklets/necklases don't lock, they can't just be slipped off to go swimming or do dishes like rings are to prevent from being lost)
[20:04] <ravenshad> good point fae..
[20:04] <fae{NR}> i'd say a collar is something that can be felt
[20:04] <ravenshad> I have nipple rings as my daily collar..
[20:05] <ravenshad> and am getting lucite ones so that I don't have to remove them for surgery.. :)))
[20:05] <kittn{L}> Hmmmmmm is nonremoval a criteria??? I have to take off my anklet when I rollerblade...
[20:05] <fae{NR}> the seen depends on the relationships, i've had a number of collars that i couldn't let be seen
[20:05] <ravenshad> I don't see a collar as having a requirement that it can't be removed kittn..
[20:05] <ravenshad> but many prefer ones that can't be rmoved
20:05] <fae{NR}> like i said, they can be removed, but have to be unfastened (whether locked on or a standard clasp doesn't matter)
[20:05] <kittn{L}> Whew!!! I'm glad...I'd hate to have to rollerblade with it on...it HURTS
[20:06] * ravenshad giggles..
[20:06] <ravenshad> why give someone a collar?
[20:06] <Jackal{s}> what is the meaning of a collar?
[20:07] <ravenshad> The best analagy I have found for the meaning of a collarJackal is think of a wedding ring..
[20:07] <Jackal{s}> {skylar} wants to know why we give or get them
[20:07] <kittn{L}> There are many meanings....to many different people
[20:07] <ravenshad> it is a sign of the comittment between the people in the relationship..a sign of ownership..and the type of relationship..
[20:07] <ravenshad> I think many give them because of what it symbolizes to them..it is the equivalent of a wedding band in vanilla terms..
[20:08] <kittn{L}> To some it is like a wedding band...to some it is like and engagement ring...to some it is like going steady...
[20:08] <fae{NR}> Giving the collar is a person placing their trust in the person receiving the collar to obey them (all the time or at arranged times, differs) and let them know if something is wrong
[20:08] <Jackal{s}> So basicly it is what I want it to mean in my relationship with skylar
[20:09] <NoirRose> I think collars tend to be discussed a bit more than a wedding ring does, though
[20:09] <ravenshad> yes Jackal :)
[20:09] <kittn{L}> Exactly Jackal...whatever you decide it to mean...
[20:09] <ravenshad> that is for sure NoirRose..why do you think that is?
[20:09] <fae{NR}> Receiving the collar is a person placing their trust in the other to take care of them when they need taken care of, to teach and guide them, and of course to serve the giver
[20:09] <fae{NR}> (in my opinion)
[20:09] <NoirRose> I'd hope it's because there needs to be a lot of discussion to make sure than no-one gets hurt...
[20:09] <Jackal{s}> Thank you fae
[20:10] <NoirRose> And BDSM in general tend to discuss relationships more than vanilla relationships. (rampant generalization)
[20:10] <Jackal{s}> {s} agrees with NoirRose
[20:10] * kittn{L} smiles
[20:10] <ravenshad> I agree NR..
[20:11] <fae{NR}> (general note, fae is in a serious/silly mode tonight)
[20:11] <ravenshad> Would you say that a collar represents more of a responsibility for the sub or dom than a non-collared relationship does?
[20:11] <NoirRose> I'd say it represents more responsibility for both.
[20:11] <Jackal{s}> {s} I have heard of ceremonies for collars and wonders why they are done
[20:11] <fae{NR}> i'd say both, it's a new/the next level of trust in the relationship
[20:12] <fae{NR}> {s}, very true, many ppl in the lifestyle go through rituals to show how much it means, in addition to, or in place of marriage.
[20:12] <ravenshad> They are done because the people involved want them done.. for the samne reason we have wedding ceremonies and receptions..to share the joy with others..
[20:12] *** kittn{L} has quit IRC (Read error to kittn{L}[98AE3721.ipt.aol.com]: Connection reset by peer)
[20:12] <Jackal{s}> We agree with that.. as married couple this truly is the next level for us to continue to grow.
[20:13] <ravenshad> Not everyone has a ceremony though
[20:13] <Jackal{s}> Thank you ravenshad and fae.. I understand know.{s}
[20:13] <ravenshad> good :))
[20:14] <fae{NR}> it's also a ritual that belongs in our subculture that mainstream really doesn't have a parallel too (since marriage is also in our sub-culture)
[20:14] <ravenshad> What responsibilities does a collar place on the relatiosnhip?
[20:14] <fae{NR}> so it helps us to define that "this is who we are and how we are"
[20:14] <kittn{L}> <smile> keep getting booted..Thanks mizu
[20:14] <Jackal{s}> The dom can not stop in their responsibility to the sub
[20:15] * fae{NR} belatedly waves to AB and swats his butt for not staying long enough *
[20:16] <Jackal{s}> {s} feels that she has to work better and harder to keep my Master happy and loved
[20:16] <ravenshad> Does a collar give a sense of permanency to the relationship?
[20:17] <Jackal{s}> I think so.
[20:17] <_mizu> yes, it's alway's there
[20:17] <kittn{L}> My collar is a symbol of our commitment to each other... but is not as strong a symbol as a wedding ring...
[20:17] <fae{NR}> it gives a sense of a deeper relationship with more trust involved...i'd be hesitant on the permanency but i'd say it may for most be more binding than a marriage
[20:17] <Jackal{s}> {s} thinks it would be as permanent as the marriage should be
[20:17] * NoirRose nods at Jackal. I agree
[20:18] <ravenshad> to me kittn, a collar is a stronger symbol than my wedding rings ever were...I'm not exactly sure why though..
[20:18] <kittn{L}> This is where the differences in each couple come up...I am committed..but we are not prepared for marriage...
[20:18] <ravenshad> I agree there Jackal..
[20:19] <fae{NR}> kittn, i actually agree with that, but we're holding off marriage for other reasonas as well
[20:19] <ravenshad> May I ask if you live with your master?
[20:19] <kittn{L}> but at the same time...it's not like we are just dating either...
[20:19] <kittn{L}> Me??? no...we are long-distance...
[20:20] <ravenshad> Ahhh..I understand..was just curious.. :)
[20:20] <ravenshad> This is something that comes up alot..
[20:20] <ravenshad> a collar is a comittment to a relationship..
[20:20] <ravenshad> a physical symbol of the responsibilities of each party..
[20:20] <Jackal{s}> {skylar} I think that marriage is a form of collaring and the next step would be deeper and more binding
[20:20] <ravenshad> yet..people continually say that it is not the same as a marraige..why do you think that is?
[20:20] <kittn{L}> We have discussed moving together when the time is right...
[20:20] <ravenshad> well Jackal, there are such things as D/s weddings..
[20:21] * ravenshad smiles..I understand kittn.. :)
[20:21] <_mizu> because the bond is one of a commitment of service to another
[20:21] <Jackal{s}> What is a D/s weddinng and what happens
[20:21] <kittn{L}> I think collaring is getting a "disposable" reputation because of all the on-line stuff
[20:22] <fae{NR}> For fear of sounding cynical, a divorce has a lot more legal ramifactions than a collar revoking or casting off
[20:22] * kittn{L} agrees with fae
[20:22] <ravenshad> Well it is very similar to a regular wedding..but included in the vows are the terms of the D/s relationship..as well, a collar is usually placed in addition to wedding rings..
[20:22] * Jackal{s} agrees with fae
[20:22] <Jackal{s}> thank you ravenshad that makes sense
[20:23] <kittn{L}> I have never attended one, but I have read the ceremonies..and they are more beautiful than any wedding...
[20:23] <ravenshad> you're welcome jackal..:)
[20:23] <ravenshad> Jackal even..
[20:23] <ravenshad> yes I agree kittn..
[20:23] <ravenshad> it seems that the ceremonies that go with BDSM are more involved..I think it's because the people are more in touch with themselves and their desires..
[20:24] <kittn{L}> I would love to have both kinds of weddings....but I don't know that Master will go for it...LOL
[20:25] * ravenshad giggles..he might kittn.. :)
[20:25] <kittn{L}> There is more beautiful symbolism in the BDSM ceremonies...even the collaring ceremonies...
[20:25] <ravenshad> why do you think that is kittn?
[20:25] <Jackal{s}> Kittn.. ask permission of your Master to express your desires on the weddings
[20:26] <kittn{L}> hmmmm i am not sure there are really more...maybe there is just deeper meaning...
[20:26] <ravenshad> or..better understanding of the meaning behind the symbols?
[20:26] <kittn{L}> maybe that too...
[20:26] <Jackal{s}> could be
[20:26] <kittn{L}> I have already expressed my desires as far as a vanilla ceremony go...
[20:27] <kittn{L}> Oh well...I have time... I am sure there will be lots of discussion before it happens...
[20:28] <Jackal{s}> things will work out kittn
[20:28] <ravenshad> Here is a question that doesn't seem to come up often..if a relationship breaks up, who gets the collar?
[20:28] <Jackal{s}> I would say the Dom
[20:29] <kittn{L}> The sub does....just like an engagement ring...it is a gift
[20:29] <Jackal{s}> skylar agrees with that one
[20:29] <kittn{L}> LOL Thanks skylar
[20:29] <ravenshad> I've always been taught that the collar is returned to the dominant..
[20:30] <ravenshad> the collar, is owned by the dominant, and given to the sub to mark ownership..if the relationship ends, the collar is supposed to go back to the dominant..it is their collar ..
[20:30] <kittn{L}> You know...I would think it would depend on the collar...
[20:30] <fae{NR}> i'd say that depends on the relationship, who broke it up and why
[20:30] <ravenshad> though..many people do let the sub keep the collar..
[20:30] <Jackal{s}> yes I think you are correct in a ceeremonial relationship
[20:30] <ravenshad> not so much ceremonial Jackal..as much as it is formal..
[20:30] <Amax> But does the sub feel odd about wearing it after?
[20:30] <kittn{L}> Just as an engagement ring that is a family heirloom may be returned to the man...
[20:31] <ravenshad> well, the return of a collar is one difference between vanilla and BDSM..
[20:31] <fae{NR}> depends on what type of collar Amax
[20:31] <kittn{L}> Amax....I can't wear the collar of my former Master...it is in a box though and is very special to me
[20:31] <ravenshad> I would feel very odd yes Amax..but the one collar that I have been told to keep, has been placed in my "memory" box..
[20:31] <Jackal{s}> I would want the collar returned back to me
[20:32] * kittn{L} nods to raven
[20:32] <kittn{L}> My former Master didn't want it back...or anything else he bought...
[20:33] <Jackal{s}> I guess it should be decided before the collaring happens?????
[20:34] <fae{NR}> actually, many things can happen in the relationship that could change that decision
[20:34] <ravenshad> I think it should be discussed before a collaring happens, yes..
[20:34] * NoirRose nods at Jackal.
[20:34] <NoirRose> But, like fae said, many things can happen to change someone's mind
[20:34] *** kittn{L} has quit IRC (Read error to kittn{L}[98CF402F.ipt.aol.com]: Connection reset by peer)
[20:35] <Jackal{s}> Before collaring are there not a set of rules that both the Dom/sub agree upon?
[20:35] <ravenshad> there should be yes...
[20:36] <fae{NR}> Jackal, yes, most of the time...but the collaring typically changes some of those rules for new rules which are still in their rough form and have to be polished
[20:37] <Jackal{s}> Then this is one thing I am really trying to lear more about
[20:37] <NoirRose> And sometimes the rules are different depending on what the collar is made out of, too...at least, for wearing th collar itself
[20:37] <ravenshad> do you think that collars have lost some of their uniqueness and are being misused?
[20:37] <NoirRose> Yes.
[20:37] * kittn{L} does
[20:37] <Jackal{s}> yes
[20:38] <NoirRose> There's a lot of people who don't know what the significance is, and they wear it as jewlery.
[20:38] <Jackal{s}> I see kids wearing collars all the time
[20:38] <NoirRose> Then again, I wear one as decoration too.
[20:38] * NoirRose grins
[20:38] <fae{NR}> collars have taken on a variety of meanings, as many things in society have
[20:38] <Jackal{s}> I agree NoirRose
[20:39] <fae{NR}> to say their uniqueness is taken away, yes i agree...to say they are being misused i'd actually have to disagree
[20:39] <ravenshad> Do you think that some see a collar as nothing major and find it very easy to take a collar, give it up then take another one?
[20:39] * kittn{L} listens to fae
[20:39] <NoirRose> That one I'd have to agree with.
[20:39] <Jackal{s}> yes
[20:40] <ravenshad> I see the tendency of "velcro collars" as a misuse of the collar..
[20:40] * kittn{L} agrees with raven
[20:40] <ravenshad> it shows a cheapeness for the lifestyle and I think a true lack of understanding for oneself..
[20:40] <Jackal{s}> What about the heavy metal head kids who wear them?
[20:40] <ravenshad> they don't know what they are Jackal..to them they signify something else entirely..
[20:41] * NoirRose nods at raven
[20:41] <ravenshad> I do think that the fact that wearing such things has become fashionable, has detracted slightly from what those in BDSM view a collar to mean..
[20:41] <ravenshad> but this could have benefits..people will get used to seeing such things on people..
[20:41] <NoirRose> There's a plus side to that too...
[20:41] <Jackal{s}> I understand now....Then a collar is sometjing special
[20:41] <NoirRose> It's become more socially acceptable to wear a collar in public
[20:41] <ravenshad> so if a person into BDSM wears a collar in public..they would probably be less apt to attract extra attention..
[20:41] <lil`dragn> what about temp collars or training collars.....could those be considered velcro collars by others???
[20:41] <ravenshad> in BDSM..yes it is Jackal..but to those kids that wear them, they are too..just not the same kind of special..
[20:42] <ravenshad> I agree NR!!! :))
[20:42] <ravenshad> thay can be dragn..but not if it is known that it is a temporary or training collar..
[20:42] <NoirRose> I wouldn't think so, dragon.
[20:42] <ravenshad> some people see those as "fake" collars..and do not believe they exist..when in fact they do ..
[20:42] <Jackal{s}> So what ever the Dom/sub decided on can be there collar
[20:43] <ravenshad> yes Jackal :)
[20:43] <fae{NR}> yes, it's more of a mutual understanding and symbolism than an actual physical collar around the neck
[20:43] * NoirRose nods at Jackal
[20:44] <Jackal{s}> Thanks I am starting to understand this better now
[20:44] <lil`dragn> I have even seen a ring be used as an everyday collar.....that is what the Dom chose to use.....just because it isn't around the neck doesn't mean it isn't a collar
[20:44] <fae{NR}> n/p Jackal, that's what these discussions are for
[20:44] <ravenshad> Do you think that training collars exist and if so, are they real collars?
[20:45] <fae{NR}> training collars imply to me just that, training...they're real,but not as deep a commitment...
[20:45] <NoirRose> I would, raven
[20:45] <lil`dragn> they are real collars......or as real at the Dom/sub choose them to be
[20:45] <Jackal{s}> What is the diffrence between a training collar and a collar?
[20:45] <fae{NR}> anologous in some ways to engagement rings
[20:45] <ravenshad> I think they are real..
[20:45] <ravenshad> a training collar is worn while the sub is in training..it does not represent a solo comitted relationship..
[20:45] <fae{NR}> a training collar is a trial period if you will, before the actuall full commitment...sort of a build up
[20:46] <lil`dragn> if the Dom and sub do not see them as real collars...than they are not real.....
[20:46] <ravenshad> it can lead to a permanent collar if the sub earns it and the dom grants it..or it could be a temporary agreement between a sub and his/her mentor to recieve training in BDSM
[20:46] <ravenshad> good point dragn.. :)
[20:46] <Jackal{s}> So a Dom has to grant the sub a collar?
[20:47] <fae{NR}> yes!
[20:47] <NoirRose> Yes!
[20:47] <Jackal{s}> Tell me more about the training period?
[20:47] <kittn{L}> Thanks fae <smile>
[20:47] <lil`dragn> sometimes a sub might request a collar.....
[20:47] <ravenshad> yes Jackal
[20:47] <fae{NR}> but it's still up to the Dom whether to grant said collar or not
[20:47] <lil`dragn> but the Dom is still the one who grants it.....
[20:48] <ravenshad> a sub can beg or request a collar..but it is the dom's decision on whether or not they want to own that particular sub..
[20:48] <Jackal{s}> How does one train?
[20:48] * NoirRose nods
[20:48] <ravenshad> ahh..training..a whole nother topic.. :)
[20:48] <ravenshad> some have a set period of training time..with formal arrangements made for such..
[20:48] <ravenshad> during training the sub learns the limits of the dom..his/her preferences etc..
[20:49] <ravenshad> formal training eventually has an end..
[20:49] <ravenshad> but..the general consensus of training is that it is an ongoing process that never really ends..
[20:49] <Jackal{s}> OK can we have a discussion night on training?
[20:49] <ravenshad> it is the learning process.. :)
[20:49] <fae{NR}> *psst* raven, think we might have next discussion on training?
[20:49] <ravenshad> yes..I will do that two weeks from now..I want to cover meeting people from online next week..
[20:49] * ravenshad smiles..two weeks fae.. :)
[20:49] * fae{NR} gryns *
[20:49] <kittn{L}> Awwwwwww I'm gonna miss it...I work next Sunday...
[20:49] <fae{NR}> s'okay
[20:50] <Jackal{s}> Thank you raven
[20:50] <ravenshad> the sunday after kittn
[20:50] <ravenshad> welcome Jackal..
[20:50] <kittn{L}> Nope...I was talking about meeting people from on-line
[20:50] <ravenshad> Jackal..feel free to post your questions to the list as well..I'm sure they will answer them :)
[20:51] <ravenshad> should a collar ever be used as a weapon in an arugment?
[20:51] <NoirRose> Never
[20:51] <fae{NR}> not at all
[20:51] <kittn{L}> Hmmmm how would it be used as a weapon...???
[20:52] <ravenshad> ok..say you have an argument with your dominant..he/she has done something or said something which really hurt you
[20:52] * kittn{L} listening
[20:52] <ravenshad> should the submissive use the collar as a weapon by giving it back because of a fight..or saying something like, if you don't do this I will return the collar...
[20:53] <kittn{L}> Sounds kinda like a dysfunctional relationship to me...
[20:53] <ravenshad> I agree kittn..
[20:53] <ravenshad> should one respect the collar?
[20:53] <lil`dragn> isn't that like...disrespct for the collar??? and what it represents??
[20:54] <ravenshad> yes..
[20:56] <kittn{L}> Hmmmmmm don't you think the opposite happens more...that the Dom uses the collar to pressure the sub to do something?
[20:56] <ravenshad> some doms do that..and I think it is just as disrespectful of the collar..
[20:57] <kittn{L}> Me too...the old "Obey or I will take back my collar" is not in the true spirit of D/s
[20:59] <lil`dragn> some Doms that are not Doms but abusive people using BDSM will use the collar as a weapon......and make the sub afraid....specially if the Dom has .... brain washed the sub
[21:08] <ravenshad> so..does anyone lse have questions or comments about collars?
[21:08] * `Daemon` nods a hello to ravenshad...
[21:08] <lil^un> what has been the general gist of the topic
[21:09] <lil^un> ?
[21:10] <ravenshad> well, it has centered on collars..why we use them, what they signify, have they become a "fad", can they be misused and who they belong to ...
[21:10] * lil^un nods.
[21:11] <`Daemon`> and what do the signify to you subs?
[21:11] <lil^un> i guess wha ti really meant was, what is the general concensus of the folks here about collars. ...good bad, ugly?
[21:11] <ravenshad> to me, a collar, signifies the comittment between master and myself and that I am owned.
[21:11] <ravenshad> good :)
[21:11] * lil^un finds that online collars (particluarly when they are ONLY online) are often transiant.
[21:12] <ravenshad> transient?
[21:12] * ravenshad thinks velcro collars
[21:12] * `Daemon` listens patiently to the lil^un...
[21:12] * lil^un nods. that the average online life of a collar is about 4 months. *nods* that is pretty much how they can be viewed sis.
[21:12] * lil^un admits...
[21:12] <ravenshad> this is true...
[21:13] <ravenshad> I think that's because online the relationship isn't as easy to maintain...
[21:13] <lil^un> there are plenty of onliners that are serious and take the committment seriously. and these do last longer...but unfortunately there are sooooo many Doms and more often subs, searching for the prestige of a collar.
[21:13] * Amax nods to kitten once more
[21:13] <ravenshad> as well, there are quite a few players online..
[21:13] <ravenshad> I agree lil
[21:13] * kittn{L} smiles a third time and growls to herself over her connection
[21:15] <lil^un> rl collarings are much a committment, personally, as marriage. finding that level of committment online is difficult.
[21:16] * lil^un gaks as she realizes she didn't put a BIT of sugar in her tea...afk for a moment
[21:16] <colt> i agree lil un..
[21:16] <kittn{L}> This is true lil...although there are those who find each other here...
[21:16] * `Daemon` nos silently in agreemetn with lil...
[21:16] <kittn{L}> and then begin R/T
[21:17] <`Daemon`> yes, the problem is though... many look for a collar on-line with no intent of rl and often don't expect it to last long...
[21:18] <`Daemon`> in any event, it is very refreshing to seeing those who take a true commitment...
[21:19] * lil^un wonders what sort of effect the GOR roleplaying folks have had on online collaring....meaning, they toss collars around with absolutely no care whatso ever. and unfortunately oftentimes, many folks (subs in particular) get exposed to GOR first.
[21:19] * kittn{L} knows nothing about Gor
[21:19] <colt> GOR?
[21:19] <`Daemon`> much of collaring though has takin' a parallel course to marrige... in that many tend to just get married for the convience rather than the true commitment for which it should be intended...
[21:19] <`Daemon`> GOR=Gorean
[21:20] <colt> :)
[21:21] <kittn{L}> I agree Daemon..I think wedding rings have been almost made "velcro" too...just not quite as much
[21:22] * lil^un nods. the whole basis of committment isn't there. so many go into a collaring with the idea..."this is only online, if i don't like it i can just change my nick"
[21:23] <kittn{L}> <smiles> I had the same screenname for the first 2 years I was on...
[21:23] <kittn{L}> I only changed it for Master...and I don't intend to change it again...
[21:23] <`Daemon`> I applaud your commitment kittn....
[21:24] * lil^un gets easily bored with her nick LOL.
[21:24] <kittn{L}> I used to know a Daemon on AOL...
[21:24] <`Daemon`> nah? really?
[21:24] <colt> its a nice nick.. :)
[21:24] <`Daemon`> mmm, fraid it ain't me, kittn...
[21:25] <kittn{L}> OK...just wondering...you never know who you will run into here..
Session Close: Sun May 09 21:26:47 1999
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