Discussion 15: Can You Have A BDSM Relationship With Children in The Home?

<ravenshad> ok I have no popups so bear with me while I type the rules
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<ravenshad> Tonight's topic is Can A BDSM relationship be acheived with children in the house....
<ravenshad> Do you think it can be done?
<kelly{R}> absolutely with some creativity
<skylar123> I feel that it can be done with the right motavation
<ravenshad> I agree kel...
<Jackal{s}> Yes it can be,as long as one is carefull
<ravenshad> what kinds of "creativity"?
<kelly{R}> having code words or signals
<kelly{R}> teaching children to respect adult alone time
<skylar123> agree with adult time on a weekly basis
<kelly{R}> weekly? daily here
<ravenshad> Can children interfere in the power exchange of a D/s relationship?
<fae{NR}> a lot of it depends on the age of the kid(s) as well
<skylar123> this teaches children to respect the relationship of parents
<Jackal{s}> toys should be locked up where children should not be able to discover them
<kelly{R}> children can interfere if you let them
<skylar123> yes they can
<ravenshad> I agree Jackal, unfortunately kids will find them no matter whjat you do...
<kelly{R}> no matter bdsm or vanilla, the relationship should come first
<ravenshad> specially if they're in a locked cabinet or closet...the lock just makes the kids want to openm it all the more...
* NoirRose nods. Yes, because some aspects of power exchange aren't conducive to raising well-rounded kids
<kelly{R}> like what?
<fae{NR}> actually, one point might be good in a BDSM relationship with the kid, whoever is the Dominant has the last word, no "but mommy/daddy said..." (or at least less of it)
<skylar123> I have a 6 yr, 9 yr , 11 yr, & 12 yr do have a challenge in creativity
<ravenshad> I can't agree with that completely kel...cuz sometimes a kid has to come first
<kelly{R}> yes fae i agree
<Jackal{s}> I have a lock on my closet in my bedroom my 4 girls can't get in there
<kelly{R}> in a healthy relationship i meant raven
<ravenshad> Don't bet on it Jackal..:)
<kelly{R}> of course, abuse would negate the kids not coming first
<skylar123> daily respect and submission can be acheived wit hchildren
* ravenshad got into EVERY locked place her parents had...nothing fun to discover tjhough
* fae{NR} knew how to pick the lock on closets/bedroom doors when she was 5 *
<kelly{R}> lol
<ravenshad> How does BDSM prevent raising well rounded kids NR?
<ravenshad> yes it can be skylar.. :)
<Jackal{s}> ok Raven but at least it some type of caution alament
<NoirRose> It doesn't, as a whole, if you're careful.
<skylar123> it depends on what they leaarn raven
<ravenshad> true...amd caution is relly all we can do Jackal...
<NoirRose> But there are some aspects to power exchange that could be less than good for them to learn.
<kelly{R}> like what?
<ravenshad> though this raises this question...What do you tell your kids when they start asking questions?
<kelly{R}> like..why does he always make the decisions?
<fae{NR}> raven, that i would argue depends on their mental age (or would maturity be a better term)...
<ravenshad> I see what you mean NR....You don't want the kids to think they have to "submit to someone else no matter wht..we do it by choice..
<kelly{R}> religion can be an answer there
<kittn{L}> What do you do when you are overheard??? It happened to me...
<Jackal{s}> That this is mommy and daddy time we need it the same way we spend time with you
<ravenshad> I agree fae.. :)
<NoirRose> I think there'd be a possibility for kids to start thinking that one partner (or gender) is inferior because they are always being given orders.
<ravenshad> I told the truth when that happened kittn...
<fae{NR}> if they are old enough, i would tell them either it's for a discussion when they're older, an edited version of the truth, or the truth
<skylar123> the only thing I could say is that this is what your father and I choose to do and when you reach the age you can decide for self
<ravenshad> Well said NR..and yes that is a possibility..
<kittn{L}> I didn't ...I told them it was a massage technique...LOL
<ravenshad> I agree fae.. :)
<skylar123> Is thiss a good responce or should I come up with another
<kelly{R}> that people make noises because sex is enjoyable
<NoirRose> Yes, but kids are affected a lot more than parents tend to think (or hope) by what they see
<ravenshad> Good way of putting it skylar :)
<ravenshad> Well said kel :)
<kittn{L}> It was a spanking that was overheard...by my 14 y/o
<ravenshad> They are very much affected NR
<ravenshad> My 10 yr old overheard me.... I told her the truth..
<skylar123> My daughter overheard us the other day and asked if I was bad
<kelly{R}> the truth can be told to certain degrees if there were things taught from the beginning of their life
<ravenshad> but, with her, I have to..she has an experience level most 10 yr olds don't have
<Jackal{s}> me and my sub usually wait until they are fast a sleep...12, 11,9,6 year old
<ravenshad> What did you tell her skylar?
<kelly{R}> same here Jackal
<ravenshad> we do too Jackal..but you'd be surprised how often kids will wake up :)
<kelly{R}> mine never do
<fae{NR}> one thing to keep in mind with the ages, is that not all children mature at the same time, i personally started explorations when i was 9, but my brother is just starting at age 15 (vanilla explorations, not BDSM, but same general principle)
<skylar123> I told her that we were just pllaying around and not to worry
<ravenshad> SO telling them should depend on their maturity level?
<kittn{L}> My daughter gets up at midnight pretty often
<ravenshad> good point fae.. and SO TRUE :)
<ravenshad> that works skylar :)
<kelly{R}> maturity level is a factor yes
<NoirRose> It's a big factor
<skylar123> Maturity is very important to consider when dealing with multy children
<fae{NR}> well, how much you tell them should depend on their maturity level...many kids have the uncanny ability to tell a lie past a certain mental age
<ravenshad> What are some adjustments that need to take place when kids are involved?
<ravenshad> this is true as well fae :)
<skylar123> timing
<kelly{R}> i would never lie to my children..only tell what they can handle
<ravenshad> talking about sex with our kids is hard enough...BDSM makes it all the harder
* manchu doesn't know that she has much to contribute to the conversation as she is childlesss
<NoirRose> So are fae and I...cats don't count in this discussion.
<skylar123> lies only leed to trouble ... agrees with kelly
<fae{NR}> timing as skylar says, what can/can't be worn around the house when kids are around
<ravenshad> You can contribute your opinions manchu..that is enough :)
<AlstrBlck> I have the opposite problem. I have an elderly g-mother here, and I've had to be careful with some of the stuff I've gotten away with. With some, it didn't matter how much noise we made, we didn't care, but with others, not getting "caught" was important.
<manchu> true ravenshad...thank you :)
<kelly{R}> but i don't believe in being adultly open with them either
<Jackal{s}> well sklar and I tell them it is play when they do ask
<fae{NR}> manchu, neither my Mistress (NoirRose) nor myself have children, but it's helpful to think because it's in our future most probably
<kelly{R}> sometimes a simple answer is enough..no need for graphic details
<kittn{L}> Hmmmmmm I wish I had thought of telling him it was "play"
<skylar123> only tell them a basis answer because you are in charge not them and you do not need to answer to them
<kelly{R}> they are children after all and not adults..who have a hard enough time with it
<kelly{R}> well skylar..we part ways a little there
<AlstrBlck> kelly, try explaining to a 77 year old g-mother, who has morals stuck in the 1920's, that you like spanking someone, to put it in layman's terms. I've had to do that.
<kelly{R}> answering a child's question in my mind is not answering "to" them
<kelly{R}> what did she say? LOL
<AlstrBlck> let's just say I am the black sheep of my family, and leave it at that.... :(
<kelly{R}> if my grandmother had asked..i would laugh and say it was a sex game and she would be embarassed and not ask again
<fae{NR}> with kids, if you don't explain to them, will come up with their own answers
<ravenshad> kel..no we are not answerable to our kids, but we are the ones tht teach them..deny them an answer and they will form their own...
<kittn{L}> My grandma would have understood, too bad she's not still here...
<fae{NR}> which at times can be worse, especially in todays culture...here's a quick scenereo:
<NoirRose> And their answer may well not be the one you'd like
<kelly{R}> that's what i meant raven
<ravenshad> gmta fae
<ravenshad> true NR
<ravenshad> ok kel
<fae{NR}> your kid overhears a scene, lets say spanking...you're vague to him/her, they think it's abuse because they've herd about it in school or some other such place and report it
<kelly{R}> see..be creative with your answers
<skylar123> kelly my 12 yr old feel that I need to explain everything so I am constantly reminding her that she is not in control
* NoirRose nods at fae
<kelly{R}> when adults love each other and have sex, sometimes they do things that sound scarey
<kelly{R}> same here Alstr..i understand
<kittn{L}> Hmmmmm good point...I never thought about them thinking it was abuse...
<AlstrBlck> or worse, fae, the kid hears mommy being spanked, and believes that it's alright to hit someone. I have seen this firsthand.
<ravenshad> that's another good point...
<skylar123> My daughters see our love each day so they do understand my answers and that keeps them secure in what they hear
<fae{NR}> that's also a good point Alstr
<ravenshad> that's excellent skylar :)
<AlstrBlck> I have a friend, his father was a trucker and a biker, and he grew up seeing the abuse his father gave his mother, and when he married, he did the same thing to his wife.
<AlstrBlck> In both cases, the women have divorced the,.
<AlstrBlck> them, even.
<skylar123> abuse is not the same I know for I came from a very dangerous abuse family and see the differances
<kelly{R}> but most people don't think so skylar
<Jackal{s}> kids need to see love gaily hugs kisses and they need it also
<ravenshad> as an adult you see the differences..the child may not...as they don't have anything to compare it with
<fae{NR}> i'm not saying abuse is the same, i'm saying things a kid can think up if things aren't explained adequetly to their curiosity
<NoirRose> And the child's going to be a lot more impressionalbe than an adult
<kelly{R}> maybe abuse being explained to children has gotten a little out of hand
<ravenshad> very much so AB
<ravenshad> that it has
<ravenshad> NR even..sorry
<skylar123> I have explained some differances to my girls in the way of discipline verses abuse because the schools are telling kids that they have rights to not be touched
<kittn{L}> I recently had to explain abuse...to my daughter...but I never thought about them thinking I was...
* NoirRose grins
<ravenshad> Do you think having children takes away from the power exchange?
<ravenshad> yes skylar...they teach ANY hitting is abuse...it's tough..
<fae{NR}> in many areas, yes....
<NoirRose> I think in some ways it may reduce it, possibly
<kelly{R}> why?
<ravenshad> How so NR?
<kittn{L}> I think it CAN raven....but not necessarily HAS to
<Jackal{s}> No both need to be in there making decision togther
<fae{NR}> it's hard to have your submissive prance around the house in eye-pleasing outfits and/or various bondage implements if children are present
<kelly{R}> well no kidding
<ravenshad> Depends on the eye pleasing outfit..
<NoirRose> What fae said. <grins>
<kelly{R}> having children means you compromise on some of that stuff til they are gone
<ravenshad> I dress to please master all the time..and kids are always present..
<kelly{R}> LOL
<skylar123> Power needs to be seen but at a respectable level I think so that they are not freightened of it
<ravenshad> certain bondage can be worn under clothing as well...
<ravenshad> true kel...
<fae{NR}> true raven, was thinking of the more 'slutty' outfits, or having a male subbie crossdress (as in our relationship)
<ravenshad> I agree skylar..
<kittn{L}> <smile> but my outfits are not fit to be worn in front of the kids...
<NoirRose> And quite a few of fae's aren't either.
<ravenshad> That's a whole nother issue fae, but I don't see where hiding cross dressing will do any good..or where it wouold do any damage either to let them see you in a dress...
<kelly{R}> that is something you have to live with if you want children..that your life does change in certain ways
<ravenshad> I do agree that the more slutty stuff be hidden from kids...
<fae{NR}> depends on what stage of development the children are in, and how percarious your social position is...i wouldn't want it to be known at my current place of employment
<skylar123> outfits are only of issue if you do not want your girls to wear them I feel that moms need to set the example there
<ravenshad> true fae...good point
<Jackal{s}> kelly but only for the good....sure times get rough
<ravenshad> I'm not much for slutty outfits anyway skylar..so that works just fine..<giggle>
<skylar123> lol
<kelly{R}> same here raven
<kittn{L}> I wear the slutty stuff in private...
<skylar123> I agree and find it hard to see young girls in sluty outfits
<ravenshad> The sluttiest thing I own is some satin lingerie and even that isn't that slutty..it's a simple shift with spagjetti straps and a bit of lace..that's it..
* _mizu_ giggles
<kelly{R}> that is a point though..that some things just shouldn't be done period in front of kids...
<kelly{R}> not just because of bdsm
<ravenshad> excellent point yes... :)
<skylar123> I agree kids do not need to know or see everything in adults lives
<ravenshad> What are ways to keep the D/s alive when there are children in the house?
<fae{NR}> little things under clothing, like nipple clamps and such
<skylar123> respect, comments
<ravenshad> attitude...
<kelly{R}> having a secret ritual when Master comes home from work and the kids are occupied
<kittn{L}> I have gone without undies...knelt at Master's feet... called him "sir"
<kelly{R}> service
<ravenshad> do lists of chores or things done specifically because the dom asks them to be done on a daily basis help??
<fae{NR}> or just setting a rigid routine
<Jackal{s}> All the areas should be reserved to the bedroom clothing,toys etc out of sight of the children
<skylar123> sevice
<kelly{R}> i think so and we are working towards that raven
<ravenshad> I think that depends on the clothes and stuff Jackal..
<skylar123> agree with raven
* ravenshad spends alot of time in dresses with no bra or panties...
* fae{NR} spends every day in hosiery, w/o runs so learns to tend them well *
<ravenshad> cool fae :))
<skylar123> There are meny things that can be done around kids that are pleasing to D/s and save for kids to see
<fae{NR}> shaving is another area
<kelly{R}> i do too raven
<ravenshad> Yes fae that is one..
<kelly{R}> sneaking things under covers on the couch works too
<ravenshad> I find that the dress code helps me to remember my place when things get stressful...
<ravenshad> yes it does kel :)
* fae{NR} 's last Mistress demanded she stay clean shaven, face and body (face every day, full body every other day) *
<ravenshad> and having a sub sit opn the floor by the dom while watching TV is easily explained to the kids..specilly if that sub has a bad back...
<ravenshad> that's alot of shaving fae!
<skylar123> good raven
<fae{NR}> specific outfits to wear on days (like stretch pants or a silk shirt on a perticular day)
<ravenshad> would daily rituals help as well?
<skylar123> thanks for the idea fae
<fae{NR}> definately raven
<fae{NR}> skylar, which one
<fae{NR}> ?
* ravenshad is required to wear a collar and ankle cuff whenever she is in bed...be it for sleeping, or back pain...
<Jackal{s}> ok keep going ladies I am learning here
<fae{NR}> raven, yep, but she liked me to stay smooth
<kelly{R}> i never thought daily rituals would help before..now i am rethinking that since being out of work til fall
<skylar123> outfits on certin days
<ravenshad> You have guts fae!! I would be mumbling about shaving my whole body..well maybe not..LOL
<ravenshad> I find that for me kel., they work well..
<skylar123> Jackel be nice
* kittn{L} is required to wear her collar...and ankle bracelet at all times
<fae{NR}> one small disciplinary action, have a nice pair of flats or low heels (easily worn around the house) that are 1/2 size too small
<ravenshad> we don't have any formalized ritual..but there are some things we do daily that could be considered a ritual...
<ravenshad> OUCH fae!!
<ravenshad> that would work...
<ravenshad> but OUCH!!
<AlstrBlck> yeah, fae, OUCH!
<Jackal{s}> I am skylay just getting some ideas
* ravenshad thinks she isn't going to let master read this log..
* fae{NR} 's collar is a bit...obvious *
<AlstrBlck> <LOL> raven, funny!
* _mizu_ giggles
<skylar123> Master is here and I may be in trouble ...lol
<_mizu_> not if done right fae
* kittn{L} is glad Master does not visit IRC
<fae{NR}> but previously i had an anklet that was a length of chain that we pliared on, didn't come off at any time
<kelly{R}> i am to wear a collar all the time...a gold chain...
<fae{NR}> raven, and how are you going to keep your Master from the web page?
<kelly{R}> but at night wear a leather collar and restraints if Master wishes
<ravenshad> fae, will you take over the discussion?
<skylar123> good ?
<ravenshad> I'm not fae..it's a joke..LOLOL
* fae{NR} quietly sits near Mistress in channel (even though she's making dinner right now...she's a better cook than me) *
<AlstrBlck> I had a simple collar made once for my sub, was a length of leather strand, with her nick in letters on it, KAJI. The length of the necklace was adjustable. She wore it all the time, and no one knew what it meant. She told them it was her nickname.
<fae{NR}> unfortunately with me, there is very little i can stand around my neck so a chain wouldn't do if it were tight enough i couldn't get it off...i still have episodes where the collar is too much to wear
<ravenshad> a particular watch might do fae.. :)
<fae{NR}> sorry, was catching up elsewhere
<ravenshad> thanks gf.. ;)
<ravenshad> I'm sorry all..but I need to figure out what is wrong with my puter..
<ravenshad> email me the log...
<skylar123> bye raven
<ravenshad> Thanks everyone..it's going great!!! keep it up :)
*** ravenshad has quit IRC (Outta here!!)
* fae{NR} turns full attention to irc *
<AlstrBlck> By making the necklace adjustable, she could wear it loose, as a necklace, or tighten it up a bit to make it more like a collar.
<kittn{L}> Master gave me both a necklace and an ankle bracelet...but the bracelet is really my "collar"
<fae{NR}> (and tries to collect her thoughts for another question)
<skylar123> collars aare new to me but interested to know more
<fae{NR}> how does one handle discipline with children in the house
* fae{NR} nods *
<kelly{R}> the discipline if needed immediately must be done without physical contact until children are asleep
<fae{NR}> will do raven
<skylar123> my Master has told me to go to the bedroom once but normally it waits til the kids are down
<kelly{R}> like...being sent to my room...
<Jackal{s}> have set rules on paper and the punishment no ? or arguing
<skylar123> who sets up lisst of infractions and consequences
<kelly{R}> i don't think it is healthy for children to never see arguing or at least heated discussion
* NoirRose doesn't either
<skylar123> What do you do if you do not argue at all
<NoirRose> Why would not arguing be a bad thing?
<kittn{L}> we don't argue in front of the kids...actually we don't argue much at all..but we do argue
<kelly{R}> that is how most children learn conflict resolution
<kelly{R}> by example of their parents
<Jackal{s}> Kelly I didnt say that now there still disagreements and heated debates
<kittn{L}> Exactly kelly
<skylar123> We had one arguement in 7 yrs and the kids saw that and were more frieghtened that we were getting divorced
<kelly{R}> unhealthy thoughts those
* NoirRose nods
<skylar123> kids need to see compromise and not pride of who is right or wrong
<AlstrBlck> but skylar, if they saw more arguments, would they still have those fears, or would they just say "mommy and daddy are disagreeing again"?
<kelly{R}> that is why my children are not sent out of the room for every discussion to take place
<Jackal{s}> but a humble man apologies for his tone of voice and actions to the children
<kelly{R}> yes that too Jackal..as do humble women
* kelly{R} grins
<kelly{R}> and we have both done so
<skylar123> my girls are never sent out but my Master and I agree and think alike on 99% of things
<kelly{R}> wow..great for you guys
<Jackal{s}> yes Kelly
<fae{NR}> loaded question: if your child/children do stumble across your 'box of toys', how should you handle the situation?
<AlstrBlck> ok, question... If and/or when you children have friends over, either visiting, for the night, slumber party, whatever, how are things handled?
<skylar123> so it is hard to show conflict if there is none ...What would you do in this case
<kelly{R}> mine joked about my "dog collar
<Jackal{s}> as husband and wife we have become one and our girls see that if either one of us says no it from both of us
<AlstrBlck> It's one thing to have your children know something may be up, but how do you explain to another child's parent who calls and says "my child said that this happened..."
<kelly{R}> make sure you talk to them about it skylar...the different ways people get along and the proper way to resolve things
<NoirRose> I would have no to few activities during that sort of event
<kelly{R}> same here NR
<NoirRose> It's not worth taking the risk.
* AlstrBlck temporarily feels like alpha male... <L>
<skylar123> thanks kelly will do that
* NoirRose giggles
* fae{NR} is back (got lagged out) *
<kelly{R}> our bedroom is off limits to my children..they have commented on my collar...
<kelly{R}> i do not wear it if they seem upset by it
<kelly{R}> and i explained that it was something fun to wear for me
<Jackal{s}> Alstrblck be as honest as possable but what the subject
<kittn{L}> I hope my kids never find my "toybox". I don't know how I would explain....
* fae{NR} tries to see where the discussion currently is *
<kelly{R}> that is a tough one
<NoirRose> We're working on it...<grins>
<fae{NR}> kittn, but you can never be sure that they won't
<skylar123> This is my first discussion and I hate to leave but must be up at 6:00am to get ready for work. Thank you for the Ideas and thoughts ... email me with any new ideas you come up with.
<fae{NR}> understand skylar, hope to see you next week
<Jackal{s}> kittn how old are your children
<kittn{L}> 14 & 11
<AlstrBlck> kittn, in my bedrooms, some stuff, such as handcuffs, are left right out in the open. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE knows I own them, so no sense hiding them
<kelly{R}> by that age, they should have already been taught that your room or closet was off limits
<AlstrBlck> Hell, I have a 3 year old nephew and 2 year old niece that love playing with a pair! <L>
<kittn{L}> They have been taught the kelly...but it didn't stop me when I was their age....LOL
<AlstrBlck> kelly, children may know, but they are still curious, and first chance they get, they will look.
<AlstrBlck> It's called "Pandora's Box."
<kelly{R}> right...
* NoirRose nods
<Jackal{s}> this is where it really becomes tough kitten keep them lock up and if they do find them well sit down and explain as little as possable
<kelly{R}> right
<kelly{R}> tell them it was old junk you just haven't thrown away
* kelly{R} grins
<NoirRose> Why as little as possible, Jackal?
* kittn{L} nods
<kittn{L}> I don't think they'd believe that for a minute Kelly...LOL
<NoirRose> Would you lie yo your kids about BDSM-related matters?
<AlstrBlck> some stuff, though, is almost impossible to explain, either in as little words as possible, or in detail.
<kelly{R}> depends on what matters
<fae{NR}> When, if ever, should you tell your kids about the BDSM lifestyle?
* kittn{L} nods at kelly
<kelly{R}> see..i am from the belief that graphic details of my sex life are never my children's business
<kittn{L}> I would not
<kittn{L}> share the details...
<kelly{R}> i would not unless they were out on their own and told me they were exploring it
<NoirRose> The graphic details, no, but what about the non-graphic ones?
<kelly{R}> and adult enough to handle a general discussion...but no graphic and personal
<AlstrBlck> But, how often do you hear about the teaching of alternative lifestyles, where it is acceptable for one to be gay, lesbian, or bisexual?
<kelly{R}> then i would yes NR
<fae{NR}> kelly, but if they don't know you're into it...how can you be sure you'd know when they were exploring it...they might be afraid to approach you with something so "odd"
<kelly{R}> i do not teach that Alstr
* NoirRose nods
<AlstrBlck> If the children can be taught that in school, shouldn't they be taught other alternatives, too?
<Jackal{s}> I feel they need to be older they would just think moms crazy and this is the age they are starting to become curious of sex. how would one parent explain a mark across the face of ones date, "They say whats wrong mom does it"
<kittn{L}> hmmmmmmmm my kids have seen some stuff over my shoulder on my puter...but they haven't asked many questions
<kelly{R}> no Alstr
<kelly{R}> i teach my children that people live differently...gay or whatever..i do not tell them any of it is alright
<kelly{R}> it is up to them to decide for themself
<NoirRose> Whether something's alright, or whether it's something they might want to explore earlier?
<Jackal{s}> kelly my family lives next to a gay couple they know
<kelly{R}> i do not say if it is right one way or another...i just tell them the simple facts
* NoirRose nods
<kelly{R}> lesbian equals women loving each other
<NoirRose> And I meant later, not earlier.
<kelly{R}> gay men equals men loving each other
<Jackal{s}> true
<kelly{R}> no more
<AlstrBlck> and BDSM means Master loving sub.
<kelly{R}> i don't say that i agree with it...i don't comment on not agreeing with it
* NoirRose nods. I think that's a good thing to tell them
<kelly{R}> they are 11 and 9 and know about being homosexual and the acts..from tv and discussions we have had
<kelly{R}> i make sure they don't look at others in a bad way..just that they know the facts of the relationship
<Jackal{s}> My girls don't know mine and my wife lifestyle
<kittn{L}> I think my son is puzzled by what he has seen... that his strong independent mother is a submissive...
<kelly{R}> i would never explain bdsm to them
<NoirRose> What would you do if your 11 year old asked you about something BDSM related they saw at a friend's house?
<kelly{R}> depends on what they saw
<kelly{R}> sorry..don't mean to be sounding holier than thou
<Jackal{s}> at the age of 18 I would so they know the truth before going to college at least it would be honest from me
<fae{NR}> kelly, it's understandable, and it's a view you hold strongly, we all understand that
<AlstrBlck> tis ok, kelly. In a way, you are better suited to this topic than I am, you have kids, I don't, in the house.
<NoirRose> Why do you think that BDSM shouldn't be explained to kids?
* kittn{L} is listening intently
<kelly{R}> because to me that would be like opening a can of worms...giving them a reason to explore something before they discover it on their own
<subdancer> it takes strength to be submissivekittn{L}
<Jackal{s}> mature is the main factor
<kittn{L}> I know that dancer....but will he???
<NoirRose> How would people know if their kids are exploring BDSM, though?
<kelly{R}> they would not necessarily have the maturity to know the difference between being a Dom/Domme and an abuser
<kelly{R}> maybe we wouldn't necessarily know
<NoirRose> If it's not explained, and they decided to explore, would it be more likely for them to do unsafe things?
<subdancer> has he seen the relationship you submit in?
<kittn{L}> or the difference between sub...and the abused...especially since they had an aunt that WAS abused
<kelly{R}> perhaps NR...but not necessarily
<AlstrBlck> I know a 15 year old girl into being bound, and I know a 16 year old sub. Neither of their parents know.
<Jackal{s}> I belive so NoirRose
<kittn{L}> Yes dancer..but we are long distance so it is not very frequent that he sees us together
* NoirRose nods
<AlstrBlck> <<Oh, the reason why I know is because they know I am Dom, and have asked me questions because they know I will answer honestly>>
<NoirRose> Would you prefer to know if your kids are exploring BDSM?
<fae{NR}> wouldn't you rather arm your children with knowledge, and more often than not they may simply decide that it isn't for them
<kelly{R}> i don't agree with you sharing with those children like that Alstr
<subdancer> do you believe he sees strength in that relationship from you
<kelly{R}> i don't know if i would like to know honestly
<AlstrBlck> kelly, they will find out from others, and they know that I will be honest with them.
<kittn{L}> <smile> Oh yes...we are a team...we are loving...and tender with each other
<kelly{R}> most of the time to much knowledge in some subjects can be harmful
<NoirRose> Why not, kelly?
<AlstrBlck> If they ask me "does hot wax hurt when pored on my skin?" I'll tell them the truth.
<NoirRose> Who is going to answer thei questions then?
<kelly{R}> good question
<subdancer> well with that why would he see any weakness in your submission
<Jackal{s}> I would not know how I would act if a daughter came home with a mark across her
<fae{NR}> kelly, i agree with too much knowledge, but how about a suggestion of "if your ever curious/interested, feel free to talk to me about anything"?
<kittn{L}> Ignoring questions because the questioner is too young...is the root of many problems
<NoirRose> If nobody will explain or tell them what the basics, how do kids who are interested learn what's good and what isn't?
<kelly{R}> well...fae..that should be the underlying agreement from the beginning with your children
<kelly{R}> i know mine already feel comfortable asking me things
<kittn{L}> dancer...he just looks at me funny sometimes.... but then again maybe it's my imagination...LOL
<kelly{R}> but the answers they get depend on the subject matter and their maturity
<Jackal{s}> mine feel comfortable asking
* fae{NR} nods *
* Jackal{s} agree
<kelly{R}> i do not necessarily think i want them to live my lifestyle
<Jackal{s}> why not Kelly
<kittn{L}> I want mine to live whatever style makes them happy
<Jackal{s}> I agree kitten
<kelly{R}> most people look at what we do as so different...but common sense and a mature personality go a long way in this lifestyle too
* kittn{L} laughs and thinks maybe both her kids are Doms
<kelly{R}> if you are pretty much street dumb and/or insecure or have problems within yourself, you will do unsafe things not necessarily because someone didn't give you all the right answers
<NoirRose> Would you want your kids to make their decisions based on good information? And how do they get this information if their parents don't think it's an appropriate subject for kids?
<Jackal{s}> things become accepted over time so take more time than others
<subdancer> some say we can deal with that when it happens, if the child asks the questions something is there it is time to deal with it
<kelly{R}> on good information yes...
<kelly{R}> i think their are to many problems with society in living a lifestyle like this to wish it upon my children
<kittn{L}> The other thing to think about is your kids sharing their info with their friends....
<Jackal{s}> the only place they will get good info is from us
<kelly{R}> but however they turn out, they definitely know that i love them and always will
* NoirRose nods
<NoirRose> And are their friends going to have good info?
<kelly{R}> not from me ever
<kelly{R}> that is a major problem here...one son wouldn't tell a soul anything i say
<kelly{R}> another would as a joke
<kittn{L}> That's true Noir....if they only have HALF the info... that's worse than none...
<kelly{R}> again..back to maturity level
<Jackal{s}> Kelly your sending them out blind
* NoirRose nods at kitten
<kelly{R}> no...i am raising them to find themselves..not find themselves in their mother
<AlstrBlck> They won't be blind, Jackal, they will have influences outside of the house that will teach them things.
<Jackal{s}> me and my sub are in our mid 30 and just learning and it hard to find good info
<kelly{R}> also, they were raised and grew up totally different than i did
<NoirRose> How are they going to find themselves if their primary resource won't tell them things?
<kelly{R}> i don't see them choosing this lifestyle
<Jackal{s}> neither do I
<NoirRose> Or at least I'm going to try. <grins>
<AlstrBlck> Jackal, you can find TONS of books, here online, and at bookstores, as well as text files that discuss things.
<kittn{L}> I don't see mine choosing it either kelly...but then again...I could never have imagined me choosing it either...
<kelly{R}> exactly the point Alstr
<NoirRose> How much can you learn from books?
<kelly{R}> well kittn i have the background to have chosen it..they don't
<kelly{R}> you can learn at least some solid basics from books
<AlstrBlck> Quite a bit, actually, Noir, but it's not until you put the lessons learned to r/l experiences that you know anything.
<kelly{R}> i would gladly share a book with them if they came to me with some honest questions
<kittn{L}> kelly...what kind of background leads to choosing it???
<kelly{R}> in my life...i believe being abused played a big part in it
<kelly{R}> some others don't agree but i believe it
<kelly{R}> not for others maybe but for me
<kittn{L}> Perhaps...I have met others who believe it does...but I have never been abused and I chose it...so who knows???
<kelly{R}> kind of a philosophical question kittn, with many answers
* kelly{R} smiles
<kittn{L}> Yeah...one of those that have the potential for good debate and no answers...LOL
<kelly{R}> sometimes i feel that there is to much "romancing" of this lifestyle..
<NoirRose> There is some, yes...but then again, isn't a leather-clad lady fairly attractive?
* NoirRose grins
<AlstrBlck> there is, kelly... Look at any trashy romance novel. <L>
<kelly{R}> it us up to each individual to truly look inside themselves and decide the whys and hows
<kelly{R}> definitely NR
<kelly{R}> exactly Alstr
<NoirRose> What would you do if you caught your kids playing with BDSM?
<kelly{R}> sit them down and ask them to honestly look at why they felt the need..
<kelly{R}> discuss their reasoning
<kittn{L}> Probably the same thing I did when I caught my son watching an adult video in his room...sit down and talk to him
<kelly{R}> make sure they were doing it safely
<NoirRose> kelly: Why would you look at why they felt the need to do it?
<kelly{R}> tell them the realities of living such a lifestyle..the possibility of losing your children, your job, being ostracized or jailed, etc
<AlstrBlck> would you teach them any of the safety tips? To have scissors or a knife handy, to cut any rope or scarves that are cutting off circulation?
<NoirRose> Would you try to scare them out of doing it?
<kelly{R}> why would i not Alstr? they are my children and i care about their well being
<AlstrBlck> Or to make sure that the keys to the cuffs and/or locks positively work, and are in an easily accesable place during use.
<kelly{R}> not necessarily...i would just want to know if they felt something was lacking in their life...and their reasons for wanting such a life
<AlstrBlck> How would you show them the bad spots on a person to whip or flog them?
<kelly{R}> no i would not do that
<kittn{L}> Actually I might give them literature instead...of discussing the details...
<kittn{L}> some of the info I don't know myself...
<kelly{R}> back to the books yes kittn
<NoirRose> kelly: You seem to be implying that being involved with BDSm means that something is lacking in your life, and that you don't think it would be acceptable for your kids to be involved in it.
<AlstrBlck> you would talk to them, to see if anything was lacking in their life, but you wouldn't teach them to be careful, that they could be seriously injured during scening?
<kittn{L}> Good point Noir
<kelly{R}> for me...having done some soul searching..i know those things are true NR
<kelly{R}> i know my reasons..i would want to know theirs
<kittn{L}> Yes...<smile> for YOU they are true...but for others this ADDS to their lives...not fills a lack...
<kelly{R}> and please know i understand that not everyone has the reasons i do
<kelly{R}> i didn't mean that it doesn't add to mine either kittn..it does
<NoirRose> It sounds like you're going to be doing almost an inquisition, kelly
<kittn{L}> OK...maybe I have misunderstood???
<kelly{R}> but for different reasons than i would ever hope they would want to live it
<kelly{R}> not an inquisition necessarily...i think that at all points in your life
<kelly{R}> it is needed to look at yourself honestly and know what makes you tick
<kittn{L}> That's funny.... I have always hoped my son would be a Dom...LOL
<NoirRose> kitten, I think I'm misunderstanding the same way you are.
<kelly{R}> to be a mature adult and face life with realty
<ravenshad> what have I missed?
<kelly{R}> maybe i am explaining it wrong then
<NoirRose> Do you think that your kids would welcome that sort of inquisition? Or would they just nod and say yes mom?
<kittn{L}> <-------wants very badly to understand
<kelly{R}> they know that i am already that way NR...that it is important to understand the WHY of all things
<kittn{L}> I am that way too kelly...have to understand the why...
<ravenshad> I have to know the why as well...
<kelly{R}> if they cannot explain it to themselves..how could they possibly explain it to others?
<NoirRose> That's a good point, kelly.
<kelly{R}> see..i am not really an ogre
* kelly{R} grins
<AlstrBlck> But what if some things can't be explained? what if the "why" is so buried in one's psychie, that the answer is long gone?
* kittn{L} shakes her head and grins at kelly
<kittn{L}> I never thought you were...LOL
<ravenshad> well gee..talk about a tough question...
<AlstrBlck> God, not again!!!
<kelly{R}> then perhaps you need to look closer and deeper
<ravenshad> I'm not sure what we are discussing..
<kelly{R}> and maybe you aren't ready to face what you find and need to look at that why
* kelly{R} has gotten philosphical again
<kittn{L}> OK...so you know the why.... now what difference does it make???
<ravenshad> knowing the why makes it easier...
<kelly{R}> all the difference in the world to me...
<ravenshad> 1: to accept whatever it is you were questioning
<kittn{L}> Does it really matter WHY they want to live the life???
<ravenshad> 2: change it if it needs changins
<ravenshad> 3: explaiun it to others so they can understand
<ravenshad> I am assuming we are discussing why children may get into the lifestyle..right?
<kelly{R}> yes kittn...that goes a little back to Dom/abuse thing
<kelly{R}> yes raven
<ravenshad> ok...
<ravenshad> it does matter then kittn..
<kelly{R}> are they/we in it to hurt ourselves? or others?
<kittn{L}> May I point out that there can be abuse of our kids that we never know about??? and they may never tell us...???
<ravenshad> knowing WHY one gets into the lifestyle is what makes the difference between finding a healthy relationship..or an unhealthy one
<kelly{R}> or because it genuinely adds something to our life and ourselves?
<ravenshad> can make the difference between being abused by someone using BDSM to abuse peopole...
<kittn{L}> and that may make them attracted to this???
<ravenshad> Yes..this is true kittn..
<ravenshad> yes it can..for some people..
<ravenshad> but if one gets into BDSM because one was abused, then one needs to know that..to prevent severe emotional problems..
<kelly{R}> that was me kittn...that is why I have to know WHY
<NoirRose> High school's a big place for abuse, not only from teachers
<kelly{R}> to make sure it adds to me instead of takes something else away
<ravenshad> past abuse must be healed way before one even gets into a deep vanilla relationship..forget a BDSM one..
* NoirRose nods at raven.
<kelly{R}> exactly
<kittn{L}> raven....I don't know why I am into this....I was not abused... I just know it excites me and makes me happy
<ravenshad> then that is your why :)
<NoirRose> Though sometimes abuse can be healed more easily with the help of a loved one.
<kelly{R}> sometimes it never can
<ravenshad> People get into BDSM for many different reasons..abuse is not the only one, and far from the best one..
<kelly{R}> right
<ravenshad> saying you are in BDSM because it makes you happy and excites you is a good why.. :)
<kelly{R}> kittn has a good why
* kelly{R} smiles
* ravenshad is in BDSM because it is who she is, she enjoys it, is excited by it, and completed emotionally and mentally..
<AlstrBlck> some questions just don't have an answer.
<kittn{L}> I thought perhaps I needed a reason from my past...<smile>
<kelly{R}> no...some of us do...not necessarily all do
<ravenshad> Good point NR..yes abuse can be healed easier for some people with the help of a loved one...
* NoirRose nods at raven
<ravenshad> nope kittn :)
<ravenshad> the only person that can answer a "why" is the person themselves..
<ravenshad> ones answer will not match someone else's answer...
* kelly{R} hopes people understand her better now
<ravenshad> each one is as personal as the person themselves..
* NoirRose nods
<kelly{R}> and sometimes the why's are everchanging
<ravenshad> yes.. :)
<ravenshad> I have plenty of reason to get out of this lifestyle...
<ravenshad> but..I continue in it..
<kittn{L}> Oh yes kel...and from a different perspective...
<ravenshad> why? ...the only answer I have is..I need it to be myself..
<kelly{R}> i need it also to be a normal, healthy person...i need to be taken care of and not be in control
<AlstrBlck> I haven't participated actively in this lifestyle for a while now, and could just as easily wash my hands on it for that reason, but I choose to remain in it, even though I am subless.
<subdancer> my kidsa know and totally accept it about me my Rachel calls me her SAB mama
<kittn{L}> LOL dancer
<subdancer> she used to call me SAS mama but it changed last week :)
<NoirRose> Honestly, though, how many of you can tell exactly why you're in the lifestyle?
<kittn{L}> I can Noir..and I did...LOL
<kelly{R}> i can but most people don't wanna know my why's
<kelly{R}> or can't handle them anyway
* NoirRose nods
<kittn{L}> Alstr....could you really wash your hands of it that easily??? sometimes I think I could...but...
<AlstrBlck> I got in because of Betty Page. Found pix of her tied up, and it intrigued me. And from there it blossomed.
<kelly{R}> i never could wash my hands of all of it...i wouldn't be me
<kelly{R}> i am now secure in who i am...never was before
<AlstrBlck> I probably could, kittn. It's been a while for me since I've had anyone submit to me, my last couple relationships have been vanilla because they lifestyle didn't interest them.
<ravenshad> I got into the lifestyle because I liked kinky sex..always have...
<kittn{L}> I have considered whether I could go back to vanilla....I don't know that I could...
* NoirRose nods
<ravenshad> as I learned more, I was able to find out why I felt many of the things I felt..and that is what keeps me in it..
<AlstrBlck> But, I will admit, I'd hate to get rid of all this stuff like last time! <LOL>   Last time I gave it up, I gave away my spreader bars and some other toys. Now I wish I had them back.
<kittn{L}> me too raven...but then the mental part got a hold of me too
<subdancer> "It does not feel good until it hurts" Metallica :)
<ravenshad> I've always been one to do for others..getting my greatest pleasure in helping others..
<kelly{R}> hence the is bdsm just sexual question
* kelly{R} grins
<ravenshad> I like to make people smile, I like to be responsible but not totally 100% for everything..if that makes sense..
<ravenshad> yes kel..
<kittn{L}> For some it is...for some it's not....<smile> how's that for politically correct?
<ravenshad> BDSM is not just sexual for many people, but for some it is .. :)
<ravenshad> LOLOL kittn
<ravenshad> problem is that's not just PC..it's true
<kelly{R}> do you think that for mostly women it is more emotional?
<kittn{L}> I like my kinky sex....but
<NoirRose> Who cares about PC?
<NoirRose> That I don't know...
<AlstrBlck> Some of us just cannot hide who we are, regardless of where we are or what we do.
<kittn{L}> I like all the mental stuff too....
<kittn{L}> That was my point Alstr...I was wondering if you can truly leave who you are behind for vanilla???
<ravenshad> I think it depends on the woman kel..it is very emotional for me..
<AlstrBlck> I doubt it, kittn. I am one of those people, I have been told, that you can feel the power in me.
<kittn{L}> very emotional for me too
<subdancer> for me it would not stay there long :)
<kelly{R}> i meant men vs women emotional thing
<subdancer> i would be right back to the kink after a while
<kittn{L}> see....that is what I am afraid of... if my current relationship were to end...could I go back to vanilla???
<kittn{L}> I don't know...I just don't know...
<ravenshad> I could do it..but I wouldn't be happy..
<kelly{R}> well..i had lots of luck converting one vanilla guy..maybe it would happen again
<kelly{R}> who knows
<kittn{L}> Me too kelly....ROFL
<subdancer> but why wouldn't you consider another Dom if your current relationship ended
<AlstrBlck> I've converted a few female vanillas in my time... ;}
<kelly{R}> stranger things have happened huh?
<subdancer> or another slave or sub
<kittn{L}> because I would have to find them on-line...and I am not sure I want to do that anymore...
<kelly{R}> don't know though..maybe next time, god forbid anything happened to Master, i would want someone more experienced than me who has lived it longer
<AlstrBlck> If I may ask, how old are you, kittn and kelly?
<kittn{L}> Master and I both have some experience...but not a lot...we are learning together...
<kelly{R}> 30
<kittn{L}> I just turned 40.....March 31... Aries woman....LOL
<kelly{R}> same here kittn
<subdancer> well kittn why not just look on line for a BDSM function near you and go find one there
<kelly{R}> i mean about the learning together
* NoirRose is definately the youngest person here.
<kittn{L}> Aw shucks kelly....I thought maybe you were Aries too...LOL
<AlstrBlck> Hmmmm, you know, Ii've been noticing something... How old are you, Noir?
<kelly{R}> or come to stay at my new house with me kittn and we will explore the big scene here together
* kelly{R} grins
<kittn{L}> dancer...there are none within an hour and a half of me...
* kelly{R} is an aquarius
<kittn{L}> where kelly???
<AlstrBlck> kittn, I'm in a semi-religious town, where BDSM videos and magzines are illegal to sell.
<NoirRose> I'm 21, AB
<kittn{L}> Me too Alstr...we have an adult video store...but it is really sleazy
<kittn{L}> middle of the bible belt
<kelly{R}> big bdsm scene in Maryland
<kelly{R}> so i hear anyway
<AlstrBlck> I'm kind of awestruck by how many of us into BDSM are about 30 years old.
* NoirRose grins. Almost the middle of the bible belt for me, too
<NoirRose> Lexington, KY
<kittn{L}> There is a big scene in Houston...and Dallas...but nowhere near me...
<AlstrBlck> I'm in one of the notches of the bible belt
<kelly{R}> awww poor you
<kittn{L}> 30's and 40's are the most common I have found...
<kelly{R}> really Alstr? maybe it has to do with that thinking in your 30's thing
* ravenshad is 30
<AlstrBlck> It's almost like a generation of people grew up with strong dom or sub feelings.
<ravenshad> I think that might have something to do with the reversal of roles in society..
<kittn{L}> I think we did...only I was the Dom when I was a child...LOL I did things backwards...
* NoirRose has always bene a Dom.
* kittn{L} smiles
<kittn{L}> I thought so too for many years Noir
<ravenshad> I've always been sub..
<AlstrBlck> I'm trying to think of what the inlfuences we could have had back in our early years... The 70's, and some of the 80's, too.
<subdancer> i have a problem with a man who can not tell me no
<AlstrBlck> And then, looking at our influences, looking at our children's influences, and trying to figure out how they are going to turn out.
<kittn{L}> Now THAT would be a trick Alstr
<kelly{R}> oh geez good luck
<ravenshad> Being a parent would be a lot easier if we could predict how the kids would turn out..
<ravenshad> we'd all get more sleep
<kittn{L}> and worry a lot less
<AlstrBlck> Already, because of the likes of Madonna, who taught that women could dressy sleazy, and the Goth movement, which has brought out young women in leather and bondage gear...
<ravenshad> yes kittn
<ravenshad> Do you find that parents who are involved in BDSM are more open with their children>? or more closed?
* kelly{R} wonders why everyone is looking at her
* kelly{R} grins
<ravenshad> Do you think that parents who are involved in BDSM are more sensitive to possible signs of abuse with thier kids since we talk about it so much?
<kelly{R}> i think society forces us to be more open in some very sad ways
<AlstrBlck> I think that society is becoming more open, and easier for people to talk about sexual things.
<NoirRose> And in some other ways, it forces us to be more closed
<ravenshad> I agree there AB..but would you say this is a good thing or a bad thing for kids?
<kittn{L}> I think I was always sensitive to signs of abuse...even before this...
<ravenshad> That is good kittn, because not many parents are that sensitive to it...
<NoirRose> I think it's a good thing, because kids should be learning to be more open about different forms of love
<kelly{R}> i am so sensitive to it that i am called a paranoid nutso mother
<AlstrBlck> I don't know, raven. As a comparison, when I was in school, if you said a girl slept around, or was a "lesbo", she was disgraced. Now girls walk around, at the age of 15, and say they are bisexual, and, for a change, a woman can be just as premiscuous <sp> as a male, and get away with it.
<ravenshad> Do you think children who's parents are involved in BDSM and open with them about it, will be more tolerant?
<NoirRose> I think this is a good thing, AB
<NoirRose> I would hope so, raven
<ravenshad> I think that's a good thing too AB...gets rid of the double standard..
<kelly{R}> i don't think it necessarily has to do with bdsm..
<kittn{L}> I dont' know raven...cause I am not open about mine....BDSM that is
<ravenshad> and makes it easier for women to not feel guilty for having had sex..
<AlstrBlck> The trouble is, Noir, is that now they think that they invented everything. <L>
* NoirRose yawns.
* NoirRose giggles. True.
<ravenshad> HAve you considered what you will do when the kids are old enough to start asking questions?
<NoirRose> But didn't we, when we were that age?
<ravenshad> Didn't we at the same age AB?
<ravenshad> GMTA NR
<NoirRose> Answer them, according to age and maturity, somewhat edited
* NoirRose grins at raven
* kittn{L} smiles
<ravenshad> Thank you all, looks to me like the discussion went beautifully!!!
<AlstrBlck> Yes, raven, but not to the extent I see now. Goths walking around in bondage gear, acting like they're the ones who invented it.
<kittn{L}> we covered some of that earlier...LOL
<AlstrBlck> Uh, no disrepect to you, Noir.
<ravenshad> I agree AB...
* NoirRose grins. Goths are notoriously self-centered soemtiems.
<ravenshad> well all..it's that time of night and I have to get ready for bed...
<AlstrBlck> I take it, raven, that the discussion is coming to an end?
<ravenshad> I'm doing pretty good thanks.. :)(
<ravenshad> yup AB..it's been 2 and a half hours..that is GReAT!!!
<kelly{R}> thanks all for the great discussion
<ravenshad> thanks for all your help, it is greatly appreciated.. :)
<AlstrBlck> I know, one of the longest I've se.... GOD!!! FIVE TIMES NOW! <LOL>