Discussion 14: Discipline & Punishment In BDSM

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[19:37] <rvn^drgn> Tonight's topic is punishment and discipline in BDSM..
[19:37] <rvn^drgn> to start it off..what is the difference between discipline and punishment?
[19:38] <Timber> perhaps we can start off with a definition of discipline..to begin on the same page?
[19:38] <Wolf{mst}> (Wolf) Just jump right off into the deep end...
[19:39] <ntalia> master always said that the word discipline came from the same root as the word to disciple. he said discipline was about teaching and could include punishment, but it didn't have to. punishment was about reprimanding people.
[19:39] <Wolf{mst}> (wolf) discipline to me is the day to day acts used to tech or train.
[19:39] <rvn^drgn> raven: To me discipline is having self control within myself to follow orders...As well as follow the rules of behavior/protocol which may or may not be set for me.
[19:40] <Bugs42`> I see discipline as more internal and punishment as external
[19:40] <Wolf{mst}> (LM) agreed raven..
[19:40] <callay> discliple: redirecting...teaching, showing you the right direction
[19:40] <rvn^drgn> thanks LM
[19:40] <Timber> well Oxford defines it as....a branch of learning..moral instruction anda system of rules an conduct..to paraphrase
[19:40] <Wolf{mst}> punishment to me occurs when someone willflly does not follow discipline...
[19:40] <Jackal{s}> discpline is a learning process...
[19:41] <rvn^drgn> I can understand that viewpoint talia...so would you then say that discipline comes into effect with the daily limits on a sub's behavior?
[19:41] <Wolf{mst}> Wolf: punishment is the act of reinforcing when the discipline does not take
[19:41] <rvn^drgn> How does punishment reinforce?
[19:42] <callay> punishment...make syou aware of the cost of your actions
[19:42] <Wolf{mst}> Wolf : punishment is not pleasurable. It should be carried out so that the sub does not care to repeat
[19:42] <Timber> sort of a cause an effect......???
[19:43] <Wolf{mst}> Wolf: absolutely
[19:43] <callay> yes Wolf and Timber;))
[19:43] <rvn^drgn> Could it be possible that punishment is not seen as a "learning" opportunity..but more of a cleaning the slate thing?
[19:43] <Jackal{s}> punishmennt takws away from the joys one has by not being displine
[19:43] <rvn^drgn> Sort of yes Timber..
[19:43] <callay> if the punishment is harsh enough...there is no desire to repat actions
[19:44] <callay> not violent harsh,....but a relaization of how serious the actions were
[19:44] <rvn^drgn> OK..so punishment should only be done if it's a "wilfull" act of disobedience?
[19:44] *** rvn^drgn is now known as ravenshad
[19:44] <callay> hi Soulhuntr
[19:44] <Timber> NO I disagree......
[19:44] <Wolf{mst}> W: for the sub, it can can be raven. But for the Dom it is an extension of discipline
[19:44] <Wolf{mst}> W: not at all.
[19:45] <Timber> punishment is required when ever rules are broken.....intent follows the bullet so to speak
[19:46] <Timber> intent should only be considered when deciding how severe the punishment
[19:46] <Jackal{s}> no prob
[19:46] <Wolf{mst}> W: agreed Timber
[19:46] <ravenshad> I agree that intent should be taken into consideration...it definitely should be
[19:46] <ravenshad> But..is it possible that punishment doesn't always get the desired result?
[19:46] <callay> so willfully disobeying is not punishable?? im confused
[19:47] <Timber> no callay it is punishable.severely:)
[19:47] <callay> ok
[19:47] <Jackal{s}> yes punishment may not always be strong enough
[19:47] <Soulhuntr> Punishment will get one of two results... either the behavior will change, or you will find that it will never change. In one case, you can continue, in the other, you can dismiss.
[19:47] <ravenshad> no callay, that isn't what was said..
[19:47] <Wolf{mst}> W: Yes...but then it must be repeated, sometimes in a harsher manner to drive the point home.
[19:47] <Jackal{s}> true Wolf{mst}
[19:48] <callay> oh gawd i cant imagien it beign more sever:/
[19:48] <ravenshad> What makes something "willfull" disobedience?
[19:48] <Soulhuntr> defiance.
[19:48] <Kimi> if you know you are doing something wrong and you do it anyway
[19:48] <NoirRose> Doing something that you know you're going to get punished for
[19:48] <callay> purposely choosing to do what you know you shouldnt or....lieing
[19:48] <Timber> if punishment is used hand in hand with instruct and communication...it is very effective
[19:48] <Jackal{s}> being told not to do something and doing it
[19:48] <ravenshad> Defiance..ok..what's defiance?
[19:49] <NoirRos> Doing something because you'll get punished for it.
[19:49] <Wolf{mst}> delibrately doing the opposite of what you have been tolf to do...(LM)
[19:49] <Soulhuntr> ::smiles:: Indefinable, I know it when I see it. To define it in words is to leave a loophole. There is no loophole.
[19:50] <Wolf{mst}> Willfull disobediance is more to the tune of testing the limits. Defiance is all out rebellion
[19:50] <Mlt^jaz> I agree Wolf
[19:50] <ravenshad> OK..if a person can't define what is included in a punishable offense (to that person) couldn't that cause serious confusion in the sub simply because she doesn't know the rules?
[19:50] <NoirRose> Oh, definately
[19:50] <Soulhuntr> No. Not at all.
[19:50] <Timber> but regardless of wether the breach is willful or not....all should be punished.....
[19:50] <Jackal{s}> just like growing up stealing that cookie we knew better and we knew the action if caught
[19:50] <Soulhuntr> Simply because somethign cannot be pinned down to words does not mean it cannot be understood.
[19:50] <NoirRose> But a breach done without knowing that it's a breach shouldn't be punished as harshly
[19:50] <Bugs42`> write the rules down with a caveat, "not all inclusive"
[19:50] <Soulhuntr> Respect cannot be pinned dwon in mere words.
[19:51] <Soulhuntr> Honor cannot be pinned down in words.
[19:51] <Wolf{mst}> W: yes, but it is the Doms responsiblity to define the differnce and the rules
[19:51] <Soulhuntr> Love, the same.
[19:51] <Timber> yes MOM took away that cookie jar...an excellent form of punishment
[19:51] <ravenshad> No it can't be, but the ideas behind the words can be..and some examples can be given...
[19:51] <callay> Sir...if the breach was unknown to be wrong...is the punishment differnet than if it was purposeful?
[19:51] <Soulhuntr> Ah ... well that is different :)
[19:51] <ravenshad> to just say..defiance is punishable..leaves a major leeway where the sub could find themselves always failing..
[19:51] <Soulhuntr> Defiance is an expression of the feeling that the sub (apparently) wishes to be tossed out on her ass.
[19:51] <NoirRose> I would say yes, because harsh punishments when something isn't known to be wrong can be very discouraging
[19:52] <Wolf{mst}> (LM) agreed....how coould a sub ever questiona nything?
[19:52] <ravenshad> I think that's a matter of opinion..or is it impossible for a person to have a real excuse for not obeying an order?
[19:52] <Timber> Yes cal..I believe it would be..depending on the instants..I can fathom a collared sub not knowing what her Master feels is inappropriate though
[19:52] <NoirRose> Yes. Sudden emergency...I'd deal with something like that on a case by case basis
[19:52] <Soulhuntr> If there is a reason that I agree with, then it is not defiyance :)
[19:52] <Wolf{mst}> W: agreed Noir
[19:52] * callay nods
[19:53] <Bugs42`> I think punishment should fit the degree of incorrect behavior
[19:53] <Timber> opps can't fathom
[19:53] * NoirRose nods
[19:53] <ravenshad> It happens in new relationships Timber...
[19:53] <Jackal{s}> what is incorrect behavior bugs?
[19:53] <callay> and personally...soemtiems more harsh is necessary...to make the point VERY clear what will not be tolerated
[19:54] <ravenshad> one has to learn what the dominant likes, and that takes time...but without any general ideas, the sub will find themselves rather lost..real fast..
[19:54] <Bugs42`> not doing as told
[19:54] <ravenshad> I agree with that callay..
[19:54] <Timber> hmmmm ravenshad....not with me.........a collar isn't worn until the rules are well known
[19:54] <Soulhuntr> raven - if she had no idea how to show respect, or what I found respectful, then she would not be IN a collar.
[19:54] * NoirRose nods at Timber. A wise idea.
[19:54] * Wolf{mst} (LM) applauds Timber
[19:54] <Timber> if my sub doesn't know what I expect.then I have failed as her Dom
[19:54] <ravenshad> I understand that Soul..
[19:55] <Jackal{s}> Do we sit down and have a set of written rules for our subs?
[19:55] <Soulhuntr> Thus, by definition before she is in a position for me to punish her we are absolutely int he same ballpark on what respect is.
[19:55] <NoirRose> I don't, myself
[19:55] <Timber> LOL ask cal about our rule book:)))))0
[19:55] <Timber> heheheh
[19:55] <callay> lol
[19:55] <ravenshad> my point is this, no matter how long you have known a person, things are quite different when that relationship goes to a live in thing...certain situations that did not exist before, now do..and sometimes those areas are not covered as in depth as they should be..
[19:55] <ravenshad> Some do Jackal..some do not..
[19:55] <Wolf{mst}> W: I tend to use the collar as a reward for appropriate behaviour for an extended amount of time.
[19:55] <Jackal{s}> Neither do I but I expect her to do certain things daily
[19:55] <callay> he owns it i cant read it...all rules written by the Dom..all rules subject to change when i figure them out:)))
[19:56] <Wolf{mst}> W: and ultimately a commitment on both parties
[19:56] <Soulhuntr> raven , disobedience from ignorance is not disrespect :)
[19:56] <NoirRose> Is that frustrating for you, callay?
[19:56] <ravenshad> To some it is Soul...:)
[19:56] <Timber> she isn't serious Rose..it is our lil Joke:)
[19:56] <callay> No....i do know the rules...he just changes minor ones;)))
[19:56] * NoirRose grins. I figured it probably was mostly a joke
[19:56] <Wolf{mst}> (LM) Ihave my rules...'S'
[19:57] <ravenshad> Is it possible to go overboard on punishment and rules?
[19:57] <Jackal{s}> yes
[19:57] <Timber> Yes I think it is raven:)
[19:57] <Bugs42`> yes it is possible
[19:57] <Soulhuntr> not at all, the only problem is inflexibility.
[19:57] <callay> possible
[19:57] <callay> yes
[19:57] <NoirRose> Yes, I'd say it is too.
[19:57] <callay> but there has to be limits set
[19:58] <Wolf{mst}> W: Absolutely...I think newbies get overwhelmed and tend to do it more. With time you learn to be more concise and what is more practical
[19:58] <NoirRose> Now, would you say the same thing if it was a Master/slave relationship, rather than a Master/submissive one?
[19:59] <Wolf{mst}> W: yes
[19:59] <ravenshad> I think it is far too easily done that rules can go overboard..
[19:59] <Timber> Just as in a society we have a general set of rules that govern us....you also do in a relationship......plus an exact set of expect behaviours in certain circumstances
[19:59] <Wolf{mst}> W: nods at Timber
[20:00] <Bugs42`> too many rules can be hard to understand or can be confining
[20:00] <ravenshad> Where does flexibility come in to play?
[20:00] <callay> do you think Sir...as a sub is leanring both about being submissive and herself thatdisobedience coems from needing to know what the limits are?
[20:00] <Wolf{mst}> (LM) question...does anyone think masochists court punishment?
[20:00] <Jackal{s}> things happen daily and certain rules are set with no excuse same as the law but one needs to listen before discplining for the crime
[20:01] <Timber> and I also believe a certain amount of flexability is required......as the trust slowly builds through communication and experience....
[20:01] <Kimi> i don't think there is ever any reason to willfully break rules just to find out the limits
[20:01] <Soulhuntr> If you need to know about a limit, ask. If you push to find it, be prepared to take the full consequences.
[20:01] <Jackal{s}> true Kimi
[20:01] <ravenshad> I think that it can occur that a person acts out to get the reaction..but the reasons behind such behavior vary from person to person and the circumstances..
[20:01] <Wolf{mst}> W: nods at Bugs ...yes indeed..too many rules and you spend all of your time punishing and not training. It also can cause resentment in the relationship for both parties
[20:02] <Timber> hmmmmm will a sub disobey..just to make sure the rules have consequences.....possibly.....:)
[20:02] <Lars_pet> speaking as a masochist, i don't enjoy the pain from a punishment...so why would i court punishment?
[20:02] <NoirRose> I'd say so.
[20:02] <Soulhuntr> ::shrugs:: They might do so, but they will find out very quickly that that is unwise.
[20:02] <Wolf{mst}> (LM) I do love pain...and I have tried to court punishment...but inevitably he knows it and finds another way to punish me...
[20:03] <ravenshad> It depends on the relationship Kimi, if for some reason, the dominant backs off and no longer makes requests or whatever, the sub may feel they can do whatever they want and get away with it..therfor they may act up to get the rules put back into place..but it can be done without realizing it..
[20:03] <callay> so true Soulhuntr:/
[20:03] <Jackal{s}> some in enjoy pain and break the rules just to be displined
[20:03] <Wolf{mst}> W: smiles in agreement
[20:03] * NoirRose nods at raven
[20:03] <Timber> or atleast they Should Soul..I agree
[20:03] <Bugs42`> punishment does not have to be physically painful
[20:03] <Soulhuntr> If they will decide to "act up" because they arent being used or whatever enough, they are welcome to leave. Because I have no intention of being at their beck and call.
[20:03] <NoirRose> No, it doesn't
[20:03] <Timber> agreed Bugs:)
[20:03] <callay> in knowing for myself how important it is that i cant walk all over my Dom...ye si see myself pushing to be sure i cant
[20:03] <ravenshad> Not too many do that Jackal, but it does happen..
[20:04] <Wolf{mst}> W: If a sub is seeking pain, I tend to find other means
[20:04] <ravenshad> The reason I think most don't do that is beacuse the emotional pain that comes from knowing they have dissapointed their doms is very hard to deal with
[20:04] <callay> so very very true raven
[20:04] <Soulhuntr> So dissapointing him again with disrespect makes sense?
[20:04] <callay> but at the same tiem the need to knw in no uncertain terms was there
[20:04] * Timber smiles at ravenshad..well spoken:)
[20:05] <callay> doing it again.........no that woulndt happen
[20:05] <ravenshad> Yes Soul it does, it's a human behavioral pattern...
[20:05] <Wolf{mst}> W; agreed raven..and mantimes the sub punish themselves as harshly emtionaly as the doms do physically
[20:05] <Kimi> i know that for me...for a while punishment didn't serve to teach me anything because i used it as complete absolution
[20:05] <ravenshad> just, look at kids, and you'll see them do it repeatedly when the rules they are used to, for whatever reason, are gone..
[20:05] <ravenshad> they push the limits, to see where the rules are...
[20:05] <Jackal{s}> true raven
[20:05] <ravenshad> But that doesn't make it right..it just makes it something that does occur..
[20:06] <Soulhuntr> Acting up will NEVER get you what your loking for from me. If I see you pushing so that I will punish you, I am much more apt to send you home.
[20:06] * Timber listens to ravenshad:)
[20:06] <ntalia> i think that if a sub doesn't get attention they need, they may seek out punishment for attention, but i think that would be an extreme. i cannot imagine ever seeking to hurt or disappoint my master to the point that punishment was required
[20:07] <NoirRose> What if your master stopped paying attention to you?
[20:07] <Soulhuntr> It makes no sense.... if I am not getting attention from my Sensei, I would court it through high performance, not by showing him what a fool I can be,
[20:07] <Wolf{mst}> (LM) been there...
[20:07] <ravenshad> Ok..so if a sub is having a hard time with something, or feeling they are no longer of any use and the rules are gone...the way to deal with that is to release them?
[20:08] <Soulhuntr> If you want attention, perform BETTER. If you want him to think the worst of you, show him that you arent capable of doing the job if he isnt watching you liek a hawk.
[20:08] <Soulhuntr> If you have a problem, come TALK to me.
[20:08] <callay> persoanlly it was not to get attention....
[20:08] <Wolf{mst}> (LM) and it had a tremendous effect on my whole life...things that replused me before are exciting...things I accepted are orgasmic...
[20:08] <NoirRose> Only in a very last extreme. Sitting down and having a good long talk, first, would be a better option
[20:08] <ravenshad> Problem is, many people would just continue to be neglectful ...seeing as the sub carries on as usual...therefor masking the problem..
[20:08] <Soulhuntr> If you think it is a valid form of communication to be disrespectful, then you are not of any use to me.
[20:08] <ravenshad> It isn't neccessarily for attention Soul..
[20:08] <ravenshad> you are missing my point..
[20:09] <ravenshad> I agree it would be NR...
[20:09] <Soulhuntr> Ok... let's try again :)
[20:09] <Bugs42`> talking is not always easy, Soul.
[20:09] <callay> no Soulhuntr Sir
[20:09] <ravenshad> Thank you Bugs..well said.. :)
[20:09] <callay> it isnt attention
[20:09] <ravenshad> It's getting the RULES put back in place..
[20:09] <ntalia> oh raven, that is cruel! a sub is having difficulty needs more instruction. one who is feeling useless, well there are so many reasons for that. it would not be fair to turn out a sub who'd become disabled just forthat disability. sometimes a master takes more care of the sub than the other way around.
[20:09] <Timber> it is my experience that rl subs.......in rl D/s relationships seldom misbehave just to get attention.they are not children
[20:09] <ravenshad> thier anchor, the balance that comes with the KNOWLEDGE that the rules are there..NO Matter what happens..
[20:09] <Timber> normally there is a deeper reason
[20:09] <callay> yes raven!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[20:10] <ravenshad> That's what I was trying to say
[20:10] * chens{LM} smiles
[20:10] <Soulhuntr> The rules are there to handle situations where you wish to be better for me.
[20:10] <ravenshad> and MOST of the time..The sub isn't even aware they are doing that..
[20:10] <Soulhuntr> If you are willfully disobeying me, then I have no time and interest in correcting you.
[20:11] <ravenshad> So, basically, no matter what the dom does or doesn't do, the sub has to pretend he/she is perfectly fine and remain in tip top behavioral condition no matter what?
[20:11] <ntalia> willful disobedience is a different matter from inability to perform.
[20:11] <Soulhuntr> Not at all.
[20:11] <Bugs42`> ok, Soul but many of us have deeper or different relationships with our subs, not just M/s or D/s
[20:11] <Soulhuntr> But there is no excuse for disrepect.
[20:11] <ravenshad> that's what you are saying Soul...
[20:11] <Bugs42`> and turning them out would be like ending a marriage without trying
[20:11] <Soulhuntr> I dont care if it is a vanilla lover... skip BDSM alltogether.
[20:11] <ravenshad> I never said it was an excuse..I said it is a human behavioral pattern..
[20:11] <Soulhuntr> There is no way that someone is going to get the luxury of being disrespectful to me.
[20:12] <ravenshad> So when the dom fails in their responsiblities as a dom, the only course of action is to blame the sub and release them...
[20:12] <ravenshad> I can't agree with that Soul, sorry
[20:12] <Soulhuntr> You have a problem, talk to me. You need help, talk to me. You need education? Talk to me.
[20:12] <Timber> ah ok
[20:12] <NoirRose> Yeah.
[20:13] <ravenshad> And if the dominant is available to talk to or is not approachable for some reason?
[20:13] <callay> isnt it part of the Doms rold to sense soem of the ares that need education?
[20:13] <Soulhuntr> then wait, or leave, or take the full brunt of the consequences of your ations.
[20:13] <NoirRose> Would a note or a letter catch the Dom's attention?
[20:13] <ravenshad> Yes it is callay...
[20:14] * chens{LM} agrees with callay
[20:14] <Soulhuntr> Callay - of course. But again, I will only educate if there is a reason to do so. Disrepect does not give me any reason or desire to educate.
[20:14] <Timber> I agree
[20:14] <callay> i rely on timber to show me alot of things....there is much i have learned but not on my own...i trust him to show me areas i need to work on
[20:14] <ravenshad> It might..or it might not NR
[20:14] <Timber> it does with me NR:)
[20:15] <callay> im sorry you misunderstood what i was says Soulhuntr Sir
[20:15] <Soulhuntr> Np callay :)
[20:15] <Kimi> raven..perhaps the problem you are having is that there is a difference between making mistakes and getting punishment to teach you and willful disrespect cause you want attention you percieve you aren't getting
[20:15] <Timber> if some one takes the time to put thoughts down into words...in written form.I always try to pay attention
[20:15] <ravenshad> You are also missing my point Kimi..but it is useless for me to attempt to explain it..
[20:15] <ravenshad> It isn't for attention
[20:15] <Soulhuntr> Ok... lets try an example.
[20:16] <Soulhuntr> A sub is feelign that the rules are lost, that they arent getting what they need, whatever it is....
[20:16] <Soulhuntr> so they do ... what? What would be an example?
[20:16] <NoirRose> Are written words going to be more effective than the sub asking for a time out to talk?
[20:16] <Timber> wb Wolf and mst:)
[20:16] <callay> that is not the point at all subdancer sir...not the one i was trying to make
[20:17] <Soulhuntr> ::Shrugs:: Oh ... sorry raven, I thought a discussion WAS the act of bothering to try and get a point across :)
[20:17] <callay> that is not the point at all Soulhuntr sir...not the one i was trying to make
[20:17] <ravenshad> I have tried Soul...I can not make it any clearer to you..sorry
[20:17] <ravenshad> and I am chosing not to argue..
[20:17] <Soulhuntr> ::shrugs:: ok :)
[20:17] <Wolf{mst}> 'wondering if we are discussiong journals?
[20:18] <Timber> perhaps we can all set back here and find some common ground...and refocus again.........
[20:18] <Wolf{mst}> ok
[20:18] <ravenshad> no..discussing whether or not writing a note/letter to one's dominant when there is a problem of the dominant withdrawing all dominance from the relationship, would get their attention to the problem
[20:18] <Timber> and No NR...the written word does not catch my attention more.......
[20:19] * ravenshad takes a deep breath..
[20:19] <callay> some times NR for me persoanlly writing is my best form...i can express myself more clearly...and present it tehn discuss
[20:19] <ravenshad> OK..I will try to make my point one more time...
[20:19] <ravenshad> A submissive, looks to their dominant for security...
[20:19] <Timber> thank you ravenshad:)
[20:19] <Soulhuntr> ok.
[20:19] <ravenshad> the security comes in that the submissive knows what the rules are, where the limits are, what their behavior should be..and what the consequences are if their behavior is not up to par..
[20:20] <ravenshad> correct so far?
[20:20] <Soulhuntr> ok.
[20:20] <callay> yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[20:20] <ravenshad> Now..
[20:20] <Timber> I agree
[20:20] <ravenshad> the dominant, sets the rules, limits, and behavior protocol for the submissive..in so doing, they provide the submissive with that security..that "base" so to speak..their Anchor no matter what life throws at them..
[20:20] <ravenshad> still with me?
[20:20] <chens{LM}> yep
[20:20] <callay> yep
[20:20] <Wolf{mst}> I am raven (LM)
[20:20] * chens{LM} grins at callay
[20:20] <Soulhuntr> no.
[20:21] <Soulhuntr> :)
[20:21] <Wolf{mst}> Wolf agrees tooo
[20:21] <Timber> Yes........
[20:21] <ravenshad> That's where we part company Soul..
[20:21] * callay smiles at chen
[20:21] <Soulhuntr> But some people work that way :)
[20:21] <ravenshad> For many, the relationship includes what I just typed..
[20:21] <ravenshad> It's not the "entire" relationship...but it is a big part of it..
[20:21] <ravenshad> so..from that point of view..
[20:21] <Timber> Yes raven.but how was that seceruity gained...where did the trust come from?
[20:22] <ravenshad> if the dominant withdraws, the rules are no longer there..the sub loses their "base"..their security..
[20:22] <ravenshad> this can happen in many ways..1: life gets real hectic 2: illness ...and more..
[20:22] <Soulhuntr> Ok... here is my issue with the above :)
[20:22] <Timber> are the rules.....what really gave security..or the communication.and trust that was build up.developing those rules
[20:22] <ravenshad> From having the base in place Timber..from the relationship being there over time..
[20:22] <ravenshad> both..
[20:23] <Soulhuntr> Many subs will go on and on about how they like security and rules... yet, they will often pleasantly enjoy the fruits of flexibility in rules.. untill it annoys them, then they decide that there is no "dominance".
[20:23] <Soulhuntr> I , personally, chose not to play that game.
[20:23] <ravenshad> if the dom withdraws all of it by withdrawing from the relationship, the sub will lose thier base..and may act up without realizing why..
[20:23] <callay> the dom doesnt need to withdraw...for me persoanlly it was an effort to know for certain..(at a cost i didnt realize) but took anyway...to know there are rules and consequences no matter the cost........
[20:23] * NoirRose nods
[20:23] <ravenshad> That happens as well Soul..I cant say that it doesn't..
[20:24] <callay> those ruels and consequences grounded me and provide more security than i have ever had
[20:24] <Soulhuntr> So I simply do not make 'inflexible' rules. You will act well, or I will punish you as I chose, in my own time, in my own way.
[20:24] * Wolf{mst} (LM) has been ignored without feeling the abscense of dominance....and that is worse....in my opinion
[20:24] <ravenshad> I was merely trying to state that there can indeed be a situation in which the sub is breaking the rules without realizing why they are doing it..and without meaning to be wilfully disobedient..
[20:24] <Soulhuntr> That I understand.
[20:24] <Soulhuntr> That was my point of "I knwo it when I see it".
[20:24] <Soulhuntr> I woudl not consider an unconscious act of disobedience to be "willful"
[20:24] <Timber> hmmm interesting ravenshad:)...........but my experience is that that security that Both the Dom and sub needs.....desires....comes not from those rules...but from the communication.......and trust built up over time well those rules are developed
[20:25] <ravenshad> Not everyone can say they know it when they see it, for many, when a situation like I described occurs, the dom may not even see it..
[20:25] <ravenshad> For many Timber, the stability of the rules, is part of that security..
[20:25] <callay> yes raven:))
[20:26] <ravenshad> it is for me..
[20:26] <Timber> yes I can see that..but a breakdown of those rules..is just the after effect of a larger breakdown in communication in the relationship
[20:26] <Soulhuntr> Of course, I have never met a submissive yet who didnt think there were "exceptions".
[20:26] <ravenshad> I agree with that Timber..
[20:26] <callay> hm
[20:27] <ravenshad> problem is, is finding what caused the breakdown..sometimes it gets bogged down ...
[20:27] <Bugs42`> Most Doms think there are exceptions as well
[20:27] <Soulhuntr> If I get busy with a project, say.... and I leave Kimiko 'on her own'. If she can't handle that, and still perform well, then she should find a new home.
[20:27] <ravenshad> True Soul...
[20:27] <ravenshad> Gettting busy is one thing Soul..and was not what I meant by withdrawl..
[20:27] <Timber> well yes.sometimes it is impossible to see the trees for the forest:)
[20:27] <Wolf{mst}> W: I disagree Timber. It may not be communication prob..could be other influenmces
[20:27] <Timber> and that is where I find the written word..so very useful
[20:27] <callay> :))) thak you Sir:))
[20:28] <callay> thank you even
[20:28] <Timber> mostly like other influences Wolf..but they are causing a breakdown in communication
[20:28] <Timber> :)
[20:28] <ntalia> whatever the problem, giving it voice - whether spoken or in writing - should only help.
[20:28] <Soulhuntr> Of course, in my worldview the submissive is not in place to make demands. It is the submissive who asked to serve me, she offered her service, if she doesnt liek what she gets back, then withdraw that offer. But you have no right to make 'demands'.
[20:28] <ravenshad> I agree talia..
[20:29] * cinna` jsut nods her head and can't think anything to say
[20:29] <Timber> if cal.takes the time to focus her thoughts.and puts them down on paper in a clear consise manner......then that sets bells off in my head......forcing me to look deeply into the underlying issues
[20:29] * callay shuts her mouth
[20:29] <Wolf{mst}> W: I feel the rules should be constant and black and white...If there is to be an excpetion, it should be for a specific reason for that one time or it should not be arule
[20:29] <ntalia> no Soulhuntr sir, but the right to propose questions.
[20:29] <cinna`> I worte taht before Soul Hunter spoke
[20:29] <cinna`> wrote even
[20:29] <callay> lol cinna
[20:29] <callay> i didnt
[20:30] <Timber> well spoken talia:)
[20:30] <Soulhuntr> Agreed wolf :)
[20:30] <ravenshad> I disagree with that Soul...a sub has needs as well and if the sub's needs play no role whatsoever in the realtionship, the relationship is woefully one sided..and eventually the sub will leave..unless of course, that is what the subs' needs are, being selfless to the point of having no needs of their own..
[20:30] <Soulhuntr> Generally I do not make absolute rules, I state preferences. If you deviate from them, then be prepared to justify your reasons.
[20:30] <ntalia> i would never seek to demand of a master, but i need to be able to seek feedback
[20:31] <Soulhuntr> Raven, I dont disagree... but it is a matter of making demands, or making requests.
[20:31] <ravenshad> May I ask, why is it that when a sub has a desire for ohhhh say some cuddling time, it is seen as a "demand"?
[20:31] <cinna`> good question , raven
[20:31] <Soulhuntr> If I asked a sub to serve me, in exchange for my dominance, then she has a 'right' to those things I promised her.
[20:31] <Kimi> because it is
[20:31] <ravenshad> SOmetimes, Soul, it seems like you believe anything a sub may ask for is a demand and they have no right to do so..which makes me wonder if you allow any room for a sub to be human?
[20:31] <Soulhuntr> If she asks me to serve me, then she takes what she gets.
[20:32] <Soulhuntr> ::smiles:: No, I only allow watermellons to serve me :)
[20:32] * ravenshad giggles..do they look cute in an apron? (sorry couldn't resist)
[20:32] <Wolf{mst}> W as time in a reltionship passes, the rules become more of a guideline of expectations. The sub has learned what is and is not appropriate and can act accordingly.
[20:32] * chens{LM} giggles
[20:32] <chens{LM}> well.. they wouldnt talk back
[20:32] <callay> yes Wolf
[20:32] <callay> lol chen
[20:32] <ravenshad> nope..just spit seeds out ..<giggle>
[20:32] <callay> lol
[20:32] <Kimi> raven..i have needs..they are met or i wouldn't be here
[20:32] * chens{LM} giggles
[20:32] <Timber> hmmmmmmmmm
[20:32] <ravenshad> I realize that Kimi...
[20:33] <Kimi> but my needs don't require that i made demands on him
[20:33] <Wolf{mst}> (LM) I agree with you raven...of course I have only dealt with subs and not slaves.... The one sidedness bothers me
[20:33] <Kimi> it's one thing to say "put down your work..i need cuddle time"
[20:33] <ravenshad> I'm not picking on anyone, but sometimes it seems that the whole idea of a sub having any desires at all gets pushed aside and it causes many subs to feel they are wrong for having a need or a desire for something..
[20:33] <Soulhuntr> raven, having needs, and making requests is fine. And subs are welcome to get those needs met. But she asked to serve me as part of those needs.. this does NOT put her in position to >demand< my time.
[20:33] <ntalia> Soulhuntr sir, would it be acceptable for me, if I were serving you, to request time to sit at your side or to kneel beside you?
[20:33] <Kimi> it's another to say "if you have some time later, i'd really like to spend a minute with you"
[20:33] <Timber> agreed Wolf..but in my experience.it is not real........
[20:33] <Kimi> that is not making a demand..
[20:33] <Soulhuntr> talia - sure thing. And I will allow it if I can or if I wish it.
[20:34] <ravenshad> I agree with that Kimi, the wording is indeed what matters to make the difference..
[20:34] <Soulhuntr> But if I say "no", then I dont expect to take any attitude for that answer.
[20:34] * ntalia nods and smiles.
[20:34] <ravenshad> between a demand and a request..
[20:34] <Wolf{mst}> W: Timber?>????
[20:34] <ravenshad> thank you..you answered my question.. :)
[20:35] <Kimi> :)
[20:35] <Timber> your comment about slaves Wolf.I was responding to that....
[20:36] <NoirRose> In what circumstances would it be permissable for a sub to make a demand without being punished?
[20:36] <Wolf{mst}> W: trying to shake the cobwebs....Timber, you feel that the rules becoming guidelines is not real...? What and how so?
[20:36] <Kimi> in my life..never
[20:36] <ntalia> Soulhuntr sir, if you denied me and i was to cry in response? not anger, or attitude, but simply feeling hurt and rejected and that flowing from me, then what sir?
[20:36] <Kimi> but define punished.
[20:36] <Kimi> i'm not going to get marks for demanding
[20:37] <Kimi> i AM going to get annoyance from him
[20:37] <Timber> hmmmmmmm this gets tricky NR.it gets into needs and wants..I believe if my sub has an urgent NEED..she sure as hell better express it to me quickly..and get my attention
[20:37] * NoirRose nods.
[20:37] <Soulhuntr> go cry in another room.
[20:37] <Wolf{mst}> (LM) but needs are basic...air water,,food...
[20:38] <Soulhuntr> No offense, but if I could let you sit there I would, if I say no, I have my reasons.
[20:38] <NoirRose> Where is the line drawn between a need and a want?
[20:38] <Soulhuntr> Since I have reasons that have nothing to do with you, why would you feel hurt or rejected?
[20:38] <Kimi> if you can live without it for a period of time then it's a want
[20:39] <Soulhuntr> Needs maintain life, sanity or both.
[20:39] <Timber> oh if life were so simple Wolf..needs can go much deeper than that!
[20:39] <ravenshad> because, for some, being told no hurts..
[20:39] <Soulhuntr> Everythign else is a want.
[20:39] <callay> people need touch to survie
[20:39] <NoirRose> Soul: But what if you don't see it as a need?
[20:39] <Soulhuntr> I can see that raven, and those folks woudl do well to be with someone other than me :)
[20:39] <Kimi> it may hurt raven but it's possible to learn to live with and learn that it may not be something that pertains to you
[20:40] <ntalia> Emotions are sometimes beyond explanation sir. I know there have been times when all i wished was to sit at my master's feet and he said not now, or denied me. i knew he had reasons. i also knew that my heart broke as never before.
[20:40] <ravenshad> We're getting into the differences between a relationship that includes love from Dom to sub and one that does not..
[20:40] <NoirRose> Would you explain your reasons later, if the sub seemed hurt by your refusal?
[20:40] * NoirRose nods
[20:40] <ravenshad> not the topic tonight.. :)
[20:40] * callay nods ntalia
[20:40] <NoirRose> you're right, raven.
[20:40] <Soulhuntr> Raven, no, actually we arent :)
[20:40] <Soulhuntr> This is the same in my mind whether there is love or not :)
[20:41] <Soulhuntr> I love Kimiko to death, would not liek to see her hurt at all.
[20:41] <Soulhuntr> But, that love doesnt change that if I say "no" to a request of hers I have good reasons. BEcause I would elt her do it if I could.
[20:42] <Soulhuntr> NR - yes, if she seemed hurt by it, and if I didn;t think they were self evident.
[20:42] <Soulhuntr> But....
[20:42] <Soulhuntr> it woudl depend on how much of an interruption the request was :)
[20:42] <Soulhuntr> SO....
[20:42] <Soulhuntr> if I am working hard, very hard, under a tight deadline...
[20:43] <Soulhuntr> a request to 'cuddle' with me is simply not appropriate.
[20:43] * NoirRose nods
[20:43] <callay> well of course....
[20:43] <NoirRose> How about requests to be excempt from usual duties?
[20:44] <Soulhuntr> It depends, how much impact will it cause, and do you have aplan to deal with the impact?
[20:44] <Soulhuntr> So if Kimiko doesnt want to , say, do laundry ...
[20:44] <Soulhuntr> thats fine with me, as long as I have clean cloths for the next day.
[20:44] <NoirRose> Would those be met with punishment? Should they be met with punishment?
[20:45] <Soulhuntr> Well, if I needed a suit for the client the next day, and I dont have oen ready, and Kimiko asks to be exempt from picking it up at the cleaner, she had better have an incredibly good reason.
[20:45] <Soulhuntr> Otherwise, all she generally ahs to do is ask :)
[20:45] <Soulhuntr> When Kimiko says "IS it OK if I skip doing xxx"... my first question is generally "How will that impact my life?"
[20:46] <Soulhuntr> IF the answer is "It wont, I am going to get up early tomorrow and do it" then I will almost always say "Sure, relax, enjoy".
[20:46] * NoirRose nods
[20:48] <Bugs42`> what makes her asking that a request and not a demand?
[20:48] <Soulhuntr> Reaction.
[20:48] <Soulhuntr> If I say "No, I need you to do it today" and she says "OK" and does it, it was a request.
[20:48] * NoirRose grins
[20:49] <Soulhuntr> If I say "No, do it today" and she gets all pissy and sullen, it was a demand.
[20:49] <Wolf{mst}> W: I disagree Soul...her asking is a request... Her acting without asking or being adimant that it happens her way is a demand
[20:49] <Bugs42`> ok, so she has to ask and have a reaction before you know what it was?
[20:49] * ravenshad is confused..
[20:49] * ravenshad goes looking for the map
[20:49] <Timber> agreed Wolf......intent is the difference here I think
[20:50] <callay> thank you Sir
[20:50] <Soulhuntr> Bugs... basically :) Of course, history plays a large part.
[20:50] <NoirRose> When does an unconscious act of disobediance become a consious one?
[20:50] * cinna` hands raven the map
[20:50] <cinna`> Sorry GF it doesn'tr help to get you on track
[20:50] <Soulhuntr> If she generally throws a fit when she doesnt get her way, then I will assume all future questiosn are 'demands'
[20:50] <ravenshad> thanks cinna..
[20:50] <cinna`> NR every time I slam the door
[20:50] <Wolf{mst}> W: I disagree againn Soul...her response in that manner to me is insolence
[20:51] <Soulhuntr> Woldf - semantics :) I am happy ti say that a 'demand' is a request with 'insolence' held as a retaliation.
[20:51] * NoirRose nods at W
[20:51] <ntalia> Sometimes what is said is not a request or a demand but merely passing on information. aren't there times when kimiko lets you know that she will be unable to do something she wished to do for you for some reason? it may not happen often ,but these things occur as life occurs.
[20:52] <Soulhuntr> sure... and she can jsut come up and say "I cannot do laundry, I need to go to the dentist"... adn I say "OK."
[20:52] * ntalia nods as she gains understanding
[20:52] <Wolf{mst}> W: Agrees w/ Soul..
[20:52] * cinna` looks at talia as SHE fails to understand what doing the laundry has to do with the sub's needs or wants
[20:53] <NoirRose> cinna: What do you mean by every time you slam the door?
[20:53] <cinna`> that is just basic getting through the day
[20:53] <NoirRose> It's an example, cinna, I think
[20:53] <ravenshad> so basically any emotional response is what makes the request a demand?
[20:53] <Soulhuntr> IT was an example of a request :)
[20:53] <Soulhuntr> No .. an agressive resonse.
[20:53] <ntalia> i'm just trying to understand what is a demand, and a request and any other sort of communication for Soulhuntr cinna.
[20:54] <ravenshad> crying is an agressive response?
[20:54] * ravenshad is still lost..
[20:54] <cinna`> so how did you get asking for a hug being an aggressive response??
[20:54] * callay thinks we are off topic
[20:54] <Soulhuntr> Kimiko may be genuinely crushed by a "no".. that didnt make it a demand.
[20:54] * cinna` thinks we have been off topic for a while
[20:54] <Timber> I still think the only difference between a demand and request..is intent.....
[20:54] * NoirRose is trying to drag the conversation back on topic.
[20:54] * callay smiles at cinna
[20:54] <Kimi> if he didn't have time for a hug..what makes me think he has time to deal with me having a hissy fit and crying?
[20:54] <Soulhuntr> Timber - not a bad distinction.
[20:54] * Wolf{mst} LM agrees!!!
[20:54] <ravenshad> I agree Timber..
[20:54] * NoirRose grabs all the sub's leashes and tugs them in the direction of the topic. <grins>
[20:55] <Wolf{mst}> W: dittos raven
[20:55] <ravenshad> BReAK TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[20:55] * NoirRose grins. Yes, but maybe I can convince the Doms to follow the subs?
[20:55] <ayli> hi raven
[20:55] <ravenshad> BREAK TIME (even)
[20:55] <NoirRose> Hey, ayli!
[20:55] <ravenshad> RED
[20:55] <Kimi> lol Noir :)
[20:55] <ravenshad> there..safed out.. :)
[20:55] <Soulhuntr> ?red?
[20:55] <Soulhuntr> :)
[20:55] <ayli> hi NR Ma'am :)
[20:55] <callay> :))) raven:))
[20:56] <Timber> LOL NR:)
[20:56] <ntalia> lol
[20:56] <ravenshad> That would be interesting NR..could we all call ourselves switches then?
[20:56] <NoirRose> Um. No, because a Domme is starting the chain of events
[20:58] <callay> :X
[21:02] <ravenshad> What is more effective...a physical punishment or a non physical one?
[21:02] <callay> non physical
[21:02] <ravenshad> in your opinion of course..
[21:02] <NoirRose> I'd have to say a non-physical one
[21:02] <ravenshad> why?
[21:02] <NoirRose> It's going to be remembered longer, especially if the sub is seeking pain for punishment
[21:03] <ayli> non pysical..
[21:03] <ravenshad> OK..this whole thing of a sub seeking pain for punishment is along the same lines as a sub shouldn't have a safeword because they'll use it when they don't need to..
[21:03] <callay> i think the emotional impacts are lasting...personally
[21:03] <ravenshad> most subs don't purposely seek punishment..
[21:03] * NoirRose nods at raven.
[21:03] <Timber> I disagree..and I use safe words.......
[21:03] <NoirRose> I agree with you there
[21:03] <ravenshad> You missed my point
[21:04] * ravenshad looks at her fingers..sighs..and shuts up..
[21:04] <Timber> sorry raven...expalin your point to me
[21:04] * NoirRose blinks at raven
[21:04] <Timber> explain it too.it would be easier:)
[21:05] <ravenshad> people seem to believe that all subs act out just to be punished..
[21:05] * NoirRose shakes her head.
[21:05] <ravenshad> same way many people believe that a sub will use a safeword when they do not need to..
[21:05] <Timber> No I don't think that......
[21:05] <ravenshad> that was my point...that most people do not do those things..
[21:05] <Wolf{mst}> W: I dont either
[21:05] <NoirRose> I see your point, raven, and I don't agree...
[21:05] <ravenshad> OK NR
[21:06] <Timber> I dissagree with both those view points and find them to generalizing and narrow
[21:06] <ravenshad> THat was my point..they are false beliefs..
[21:06] * NoirRose doens't agree that all subs act out just to be punished. Clarification.
[21:06] <ravenshad> yet..they get tossed out on every discussion of safewords or punishment..
[21:07] <Wolf{mst}> ?me (LM) KNOWS what raven is talking about
[21:07] <Timber> cause they get said does that mean MOST people believe that?
[21:07] <ravenshad> You might be surprised how many people do believe it..
[21:07] <Soulhuntr> But they DO occur, and they are issues in the discussion. To ignore them is not valid.
[21:08] <Wolf{mst}> (LM) if you get bombbarded by it on the newsgroup from everyone you actually believe that
[21:08] <ravenshad> I wasn't ignoring it..
[21:08] <ayli> i've never known.. ANY sub.. that acted out to be punished.
[21:08] <NoirRose> But I do think it's probably more present in the discussion than it needs to be.
[21:08] <Kimi> oh i have
[21:08] <Kimi> i've known lots actually
[21:08] <Wolf{mst}> W: I am sure that SOME do believe and that SOME do act that way...but that does not make it prevelant.
[21:08] * ravenshad was only trying to say that those are exceptions
[21:09] <Timber> I think a sub that acts up just to get attention....seriosly..not just being playful...and a sub that abuses her safe words.....has some serious communication issues with her Dom.....
[21:09] <Bugs42`> it ocurring is more the exception than the rule and there is an exception to everything, you can not possibly take everything into account
[21:09] <ravenshad> I have known some who say they do it beacuse they think they have to..
[21:09] <Soulhuntr> I can think of at least..... 5 couples I know R/L where the subs does just that, constantly. And they laugh about it :)
[21:09] <Wolf{mst}> W: perhaps people are just trying to see how their own ideas compare to others
[21:09] <Timber> hmmmmmmm
[21:09] <NoirRose> Or perhaps they're airing possible worries about their subs?
[21:10] <Soulhuntr> No... these are the subs talking :)
[21:10] <Wolf{mst}> W: very possible
[21:10] <Timber> I must live a sheltered life I guess......
[21:10] <Soulhuntr> This is the gray area where "brattiness" becomes a serious issue.
[21:10] <Bugs42`> or perhaps they do not take it all that seriously as a lifestyle
[21:10] <Soulhuntr> Bingo Bugs.
[21:10] * ravenshad enjoys some brattiness..would not be herself if she was not allowed any amount of goofing off..
[21:10] <callay> i agree raven:))
[21:10] <ravenshad> I'm sorry, but it seems I can not speak very clearly tonight..I apologize..
[21:10] <NoirRose> Brattiness is fun, in moderation
[21:11] <NoirRose> That's ok, raven...
[21:11] <callay> lol Sir:))
[21:11] <NoirRose> You should have seen me trying to keep the discussion going last week. <grins>
[21:12] <Wolf{mst}> I think brattiness has it purpose, particullarly in a newer relationship. It helps to establish the parameters.However, in a longer lasting one, it is a cry for attention . And to me, that must be punished.
[21:12] * NoirRose blushes. Since I'm usually a lurker...
[21:12] <Bugs42`> I agree that brattiness in moderation is fine... keeps things from getting too serious
[21:12] <NoirRose> I think it partly depends on the relationship too.
[21:13] * sleeker doesn't particularly think punishment in the truest sense of the word belongs in d/s, if a sub does something deliberately disrespectful, it isn't submission
[21:14] <NoirRose> But subs can and do break the rules. If rules are broken, there needs to be a punishment.
[21:14] <Wolf{mst}> (LM) eithically agreees with sleeker...unfortunately not realistically
[21:14] <sleeker> if a sub breaks the rules intentionally, it isn't out of submission
[21:14] <Kimi> i have a point i'd like to share
[21:14] <sleeker> if she's not being submissive to follow the rules, why would/should she submit to a punishment?
[21:14] <Wolf{mst}> :)
[21:15] <Kimi> just cause i realized it and think it may be valuable to someone else
[21:15] * NoirRose listens to Kimi
[21:15] * chens{LM} listens to Kimi
[21:15] <Kimi> i know that for me...i use to use punishment as complete absolution
[21:15] <sleeker> example: Master asks sub to do this...sub says : hell, no, do it yerself, I don't feel like it
[21:15] <Kimi> so i didn't learn anything from the punishment because once i was done with the punishment...
[21:15] <Kimi> i forgot what it was that i did to get it
[21:16] <ravenshad> ok..I can see how that happens..
[21:16] * ravenshad has had that happen as well..forget what I was punished for
[21:16] <ravenshad> sleeker, I understand what you are saying, and yes, in your example that is not submission..
[21:16] <Wolf{mst}> W: Then the punishment was not appropriate. It should be used to drive the point home that that behaviour is not acceptable
[21:17] <ravenshad> but..what I don't see very often in discussions on this topic is..room for humanity..
[21:17] <NoirRose> Should punishments escalate every time an unacceptable behavior is repeated?
[21:17] <sleeker> Subs are adults, not children...
[21:17] <ravenshad> human beings are not perfect, a sub is a human being, and therefor prone to all the failings of the species..like, forgetfulness..
[21:17] <Kimi> wolf...at the time...i didn't realize what i was doing
[21:17] <Kimi> so it didn't make any difference WHAT it was
[21:17] <sleeker> if an unacceptable behavior is repeated, I believe the relationship needs some re-evaluating
[21:17] <ravenshad> I understand what you are saying Kimi..
[21:17] <Wolf{mst}> W: yes...case in point. mist had a problem turning the stove offthe punishment continued to escalate until she stopped.
[21:18] <ravenshad> depends on the behavior NR I'd say..
[21:18] <NoirRose> Mmmm...I'd say that the sub should definately be made aware of *why* she is being punished
[21:18] <ravenshad> I have to ask this, where is the allowance for a sub being human?
[21:18] <Kimi> can you give me an example raven?
[21:19] <Wolf{mst}> (LM) still has a problem with the eithics of punishment
[21:19] <NoirRose> Any time you punish someone, be it child, sub, or pet cat, the person being punished should know why she's being punished.
[21:19] <ravenshad> example of what Kimi? (wanting to give right example)
[21:19] <sleeker> I believe raven is stating that honest mistakes and errors in judgement will happen, with no disrespect intended by the sub
[21:19] <Kimi> allowing for human
[21:19] <ravenshad> OK..
[21:19] <sleeker> which, IMO, is not reason for punishment
[21:19] <ravenshad> I'm a mom..
[21:19] * NoirRose nods.
[21:19] <ravenshad> I have 3 children to take care of..
[21:20] <ravenshad> There are days where the kids need alot more from me than normal and I may forget to do something I'm supposed to do
[21:20] <Wolf{mst}> W: raven, the allowance is in how the punishment is carried out. If it was an error in judgement, it should be much less harsh than say defiance is handled
[21:20] <ravenshad> it was not deliberate..it was not outright disobedience..simply a matter of I was dealing with something else that took more of my attention and I forgot..
[21:20] <ravenshad> for a more concrete example..
[21:20] * NoirRose nods
[21:20] <ravenshad> I am supposed to make the bed every morning..
[21:20] <ravenshad> no fail..it's my job
[21:20] <ravenshad> but..
[21:20] * chens{LM} HATES making the bed
[21:20] <ravenshad> there are days where I have forgotten to do it..
[21:21] <ravenshad> at first, was a matter of I wasn't used to making a bed everyday..
[21:21] <NoirRose> Myself, I'd give a mild penance, not necessarily a punishment, in circumstances like that, unless it was a *very* bad day.
[21:21] <sleeker> priorities have to be made, raven, a child needing help is more important than being Master's footstool for the evening
[21:21] <NoirRose> A busy day is a fairly good reason to have a bad memory
[21:21] <ravenshad> but that wore off fast and it became fairly good habit..but there have been a couple days recently where I forgot..something else was occupying my mind..
[21:21] <Wolf{mst}> Thats what makes this hard..There are times when that happens. And it s the Doms responsibilty to make the right choice, which may be no punishment at all
[21:21] <ravenshad> True sleeker..but it seems sometimes that the whole reality business of the relationship is lost in this discussion..
[21:21] <ravenshad> we're all talking in black and white..no room for reality..
[21:22] * Wolf{mst} (LM) making a mental postit about chens HATES
[21:22] <ravenshad> ok..so me not making the bed on the day of my cat scan, is a punishable offense..
[21:22] * Wolf{mst} (LM) not in my book
[21:22] <ravenshad> by some of what has been said tonight, I should have been punished for it..
[21:22] <ravenshad> but..
[21:22] <NoirRose> No, IMO, that's extenuating circumstances.
[21:22] <ravenshad> in reality, my pre-occupation with the cat scan made the error understandable and therefor forgivable..
[21:22] <ravenshad> thank you.. :)
[21:22] <sleeker> we all live in a real world, raven, circumstances supercede D/s sometimes...
[21:22] <ravenshad> that's what I was getting at..one has to keep reality in mind..
[21:22] <ravenshad> exactly sleeker!
[21:23] <ravenshad> thank you NR, Wolf, mist and seeker :)
[21:23] <Wolf{mst}> W: no, it was not deliberate..too many other thingsd going on
[21:23] <NoirRose> I think it depends a lot on both the Dom and the sub, and what kind of extenuating circumstances there are.
[21:23] * ravenshad smiles having finally gotten something out fairly clearly tonight..<giggle>
[21:23] * chens{LM} smiles, not saying she hates postits too...
[21:23] * NoirRose grins at raven
[21:23] <NoirRose> Yes, they always fall off. Or get stolen by the cats
[21:23] <ravenshad> well said NR :)
[21:23] <ravenshad> I've used post its..<giggle
[21:23] * chens{LM} giggles
[21:24] <Bugs42`> so have I
[21:24] <ravenshad> My frustration with the discussion tonight has been that the whole aspect of humanity and reality seemed to be missing from the statements..
[21:24] * Wolf{mst} (LM) only one got stolen...and I still don't know what that one said!!
[21:24] <cinna`> I agree raven
[21:24] <AlstrBlck> I'd have post its all over the place if I did, Ii just write everything down in a journal, which I leave at different friends' homes.
[21:24] * chens{LM} tries to remember what that one said...
[21:24] <Bugs42`> I agree, stating absolutes is very hard, we are all human and make mistakes and punishments should be adjusted to fit
[21:24] <ravenshad> LOLOL Wolf
[21:24] * Wolf{mst} (LM) is sorry she didn't have the keyboard more
[21:24] <NoirRose> For an example: fae is supposed to do the dishes every night, but if she gets home from work at 8 pm and has spent the entire day trying to strangle a computer into submission, I'm not going to make her do the dishes.
[21:24] <sleeker> and, personally, there are times that partners have to accept that occasionally a sub isn't in a submissive mode at certain times
[21:24] * NoirRose nods at sleeker.
[21:25] <Wolf{mst}> Wolf is gone to walk the DOG
[21:25] <NoirRose> Wow. Someone who can get their thoughts across clearly!
[21:25] <ravenshad> thank you Sleeker.. :)
[21:25] <ravenshad> ok mist.. :)
[21:25] <Wolf{mst}> :)
[21:25] <ravenshad> Well said NR.. :)
[21:25] <sleeker> exactly NoirRose
[21:25] * Wolf{mst} (LM) never expects him to accept that I am not submissive...
[21:25] <NoirRose> Besides, when it comes to computers, fae's the Dom.
[21:25] <ravenshad> I can understand and accept someone saying that a submissive should control emotional outbursts...but there should be, in my opinion, the clarification that emotional outbursts may very well occur..
[21:25] <cinna`> If I had wandered in here a few months ago and listened to this discussion , I would have seen absolutely no reason to ENJOY submission
[21:26] <ravenshad> that clarification did not come into the discussion..
[21:26] <ravenshad> I agree cinna..
[21:26] <cinna`> there just seemed to be no consideration of everyday living
[21:26] <NoirRose> And that the Dom should be understanding of what might be causeing the emotional outbursts
[21:26] * NoirRose nods at cinna
[21:26] <ravenshad> yes..
[21:26] * Wolf{mst} (LM) always considers the intent
[21:26] <cinna`> for me punishment doesn't work......period
[21:27] <ravenshad> the sub may still be punished for the unacceptable behavior..but to say that the only reprecussion available is to release the sub, is in my opinion, unrealistic ..
[21:27] <cinna`> the thought of NOT getting my needs met is enough to keep me in line
[21:27] <cinna`> and very subbie
[21:27] <Bugs42`> that goes both ways though, Doms need the same consideration
[21:27] <ravenshad> yes they do Bugs..I agree..
[21:27] * NoirRose usually tries to consider extenuating circumstances, as well. Not to mention my own temper!
[21:27] * sleeker agrees with cinna
[21:27] <ravenshad> <---- has a rotten temper..
[21:27] <cinna`> and my NEEDS have absolutely NOTHING to do with the Dom"s laundry
[21:27] <ravenshad> cinna..the laundry was used as an example of a sitaution..
[21:27] * Wolf{mst} (LM_) agrees with Bugs....and my needs do have to do with his laundry...LOL
[21:27] * NoirRose giggles
[21:27] <ravenshad> used to explain the difference between making a demand and asking for a request ...
[21:28] <cinna`> I will do the laundry....because when it is time to have my NEEDS met......I wanna have a very Happy Dom
[21:28] <sleeker> doms are human, subs are human. they are all adults...a sub should not be treated as a child
[21:28] <Wolf{mst}> but....subs tend to punish themselves more harchly sleeker...how would you deal with that?
[21:28] <sleeker> occasionally, even doms need to do some laundry too...<s>
[21:28] <ravenshad> interestingly enough sleeker, many of the behvaior patterns in submissives are quite similar to those of a child..
[21:28] <ravenshad> yes they do LM..
[21:29] * NoirRose nods. When both of us are working full-time, fae does the laundry. When fae is the only one working, I do the laundry.
[21:29] <sleeker> I don't agree ravenshad, some perhaps
[21:30] <sleeker> If I am to submit, I do it willingly, and happily...it is not difficult or conflicting feelings
[21:30] <Wolf{mst}> but when you displease?
[21:30] <Wolf{mst}> do you berate yourself more harshly than you should?
[21:31] * callay does
[21:31] <callay> very much so Wolf
[21:31] <ravenshad> submission can at times be very difficult for many people...
[21:31] * ravenshad is rotten at beating herself up..and does it over things that don't really deserve it...
[21:31] <chens{LM}> me too
[21:31] <sleeker> I don't deliberately displease...if I should do something that makes my dominant unhappy in error, I apologize for it, and I do my best to ammend the situation myself
[21:32] <sleeker> If I were to tell master to get the hell away from me, I'd probably not submit to him telling me I'm going to be punished...<eg>
[21:33] <ravenshad> This is true sleeker, but often it isn't easy to be happily obedient..
[21:34] <MsDMeanr> AMEN SISTAH!
[21:34] <sleeker> the relationship works two ways...despite the roles of dominance and submission, If I'm not happily submissive, I wouldn't make a dominant happy either, that would mean the relationship probably is going to fail
[21:34] <MsDMeanr> LOL
[21:34] <ravenshad> so a sub should always be at peace and happy in their submission no matter what?
[21:34] * ravenshad is confused again
[21:35] <sleeker> there are times that conflict will occur, that's where communcation is so important
[21:35] <ravenshad> thank you sleeker :)
[21:35] <sleeker> If your master were to order you to do something you were extremely uncomfortable with, this should be discussed until you were at least comfortable enough to do it willingly
[21:36] <sleeker> you might not particulaly like what you'd be doing, but find peace in the fact that it makes your master happy that you did
[21:36] <ravenshad> I'd do it willingly..whether or not I enjoy it would be a different story.. LOL
[21:36] <ravenshad> yes...that is true..
[21:37] * sleeker is happily surprised finding this channel, an intelligent conversation actually taking place!
[21:37] <ravenshad> we do this every Sunday night.. :)
[21:38] <ravenshad> for anywhere from 2 to 2 and a half hours.. :)
[21:39] <Bugs42`> sometimes it seems longer
[21:39] <ravenshad> yeah sometimes it does.. LOL
[21:39] <sleeker> I don't know....if submission becomes more of a burden than a pleasure, it just seems to me that something is wrong then
[21:39] <ravenshad> I can agree with that sleeker..
[21:39] * MsDMeanr nods and smiles
[21:40] <ravenshad> I just find it very difficult for anyone to say that a sub has to be always happy..life doesn't work that way..
[21:40] <sleeker> D/s, IMO, should be fun, sexy, erotic, and make you happy
[21:40] <ravenshad> yes.. :)
[21:40] <MsDMeanr> but reality based
[21:41] <MsDMeanr> and I agree, raven
[21:41] <ravenshad> thank you MsDM
[21:41] <ravenshad> !
[21:41] <MsDMeanr> if one cannot go to his/her top and say, "this is not right, etc." then there is little in the relationship for said submissive.
[21:41] <ravenshad> The ideals are for the sub to always be peaceful and happy and obdedeint..
[21:41] <ravenshad> the reality is that sometimes the sub does not feel all of that at once..
[21:42] <MsDMeanr> but there is the flip side to that
[21:42] <MsDMeanr> sometimes the dominant just does not feel so dominant.
[21:42] <MsDMeanr> what then?
[21:42] <ravenshad> conflicts will arise between one's submissive tendencies (personality) and other parts of their lives..like, jobs and kids
[21:42] <ravenshad> yes..that is true as well..
[21:42] <ravenshad> that is so hard to deal with..and it is something that happens in every relationship...it can not be avoided..
[21:42] <MsDMeanr> does the submissive have permission to run amok just because the dominant is in a place where he/she cannot/will not dominate?
[21:42] <Bugs42`> a little tolerance is needed on both sides
[21:43] <ravenshad> hopefully, it can be recognized and discussed...arriving at a plan of action..before it kills the relationship..
[21:43] <MsDMeanr> I used to think that it was wrong for a dominant. . .that they had "fallen down on the job." Now I know <KNOW> the difference.
[21:43] <ravenshad> no MsDM...technically they don't..unfortunately, many will because they know something is wrong, just don't know what it is..
[21:43] <ravenshad> well said Bugs.. :)
[21:43] <sleeker> some people are generally happy, no one is ALWAYS happy I don't think
[21:43] <sleeker> Excellent point MsDMeanr
[21:43] <sleeker> everyone, at certain times, will need a little time to lean on someone else for a bit....
[21:43] <sleeker> yes, definitely Bugs
[21:44] <MsDMeanr> sometimes that "little time" turns into a long period of time.
[21:44] <MsDMeanr> I am going through a time like this.
[21:44] <MsDMeanr> for the past 3 or 4 months I have not been able to dominate my submissive the way HE DESERVES (in caps on purpose)
[21:44] <ravenshad> Sometimes, it is hard to recognize that..and often, a sub won't see it beacuse they tend to blame themselves..and the dom may not see it if someone doesn't pioint it out..
[21:44] <MsDMeanr> this does not make me less of a dominant. Nor does it threaten our relationship
[21:45] <MsDMeanr> because we TALK TALK TALK
[21:45] <ravenshad> yes...talking is important..and goes a long way towards fixing things..
[21:45] <sleeker> true, MsDMeanr...occasionally the d/s needs to go on the back burner for a while, when situations, crises, may occur
[21:45] <callay> good night all:)) thank you
[21:45] *** callay has quit IRC (of all the things in life...the love of a soulmate is constant)
[21:45] <MsDMeanr> I know he hurts for what he misses. He knows I hurt for that too. He also is mature enough to understand that I have been through hell in the last year. . . .and that I am still quivering from that trial and am just now back on my feet, but not quite remembering how to stand on my own.
[21:46] <MsDMeanr> If not for the love of a very wonderful submissive, I would have walked away from this lifestyle for a long time. And been miserable. But james has stuck with me, and now. . . .well, I am making my way back to the surface.
[21:46] <ravenshad> I understand that MsDm..
[21:46] * MsDMeanr smiles and takes a breath.
[21:46] <ravenshad> it happens to us all...
[21:46] * ravenshad hugs MsDM
[21:46] * sleeker smiles at MsDMeanr
[21:47] * MsDMeanr hugz raven
[21:47] * MsDMeanr grinz and whispers. . . .
[21:47] <MsDMeanr> I'm baaaaack!
[21:47] <ravenshad> So MsDM would you say a physical or non physical punishment works best?
[21:47] * MsDMeanr laughs
[21:47] <ravenshad> and..what should punishment do for the sub?
[21:47] <MsDMeanr> it depends on the submissive
[21:47] <MsDMeanr> james is a major pain slut
[21:47] <MsDMeanr> so non phyusical works well for him.
[21:47] * ravenshad is too...(ACK!! I admitted it)
[21:47] <sleeker> that, MsDMeanr, was beautiful, people tend to forget that this is not just d/s, this IS a relationship between people, and we have to relate to each other as individuals as well, and try to help each other in times of need
[21:48] <ravenshad> oddly enough, physical works for me because the "feeling" is different..I *know* it isn't for anyone's pleasure and my mind tends to keep it seperated...
[21:48] <MsDMeanr> I think punishment should bring the submissive back into focus on 3 things. . .1) his/her mistress/master. . .2) what submission means to him/her. . .and 3) why it was wrong to do what it was he/she did and how to acertain that it will not happen again.
[21:48] * MsDMeanr nods
[21:48] <ravenshad> For some sleeker, it isn't a relationship, it's something else..not sure what I'd call it..
[21:48] <sleeker> topping/bottoming, raven?
[21:49] <MsDMeanr> sometimes I push james to tears during punishment. Sometimes I withold permission for orgasm, etc.
[21:49] <ravenshad> No...lifestyle..M/s..
[21:49] <ravenshad> the D/s is present in every situation, no matter what, and not set aside even during crisis because it is who they are...very hard to explain..closest I can get to is M/s
[21:49] <MsDMeanr> thank you, sleeker
[21:49] <ravenshad> Makes sense MsDM..
[21:50] <MsDMeanr> I have found with this particular relationship the importance of ritual for just that reason, raven
[21:50] * ravenshad likes rituals...
[21:50] <ravenshad> what does it do for the relationship?
[21:50] <MsDMeanr> during this time when I have had little to no time to play, the ritual we began long ago has served well to remind us who is who in this relationship.
[21:50] <MsDMeanr> especially when I have leaned on him so hard sometimes.
[21:50] <ravenshad> yes..that can be a great benefit of rituals.. :)
[21:51] * ravenshad likes to have her master lean on her when he needs to...it makes the relationship seem more a relationship than a contractual agreement...if that makes sense..
[21:51] <MsDMeanr> It (crisis) also reminds us that I am woman, mother, friend, lover, dominant.