Discussion 13: What Is Domination To You?

[19:39] * ravenshad says Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions on BDSM the following rules apply..
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[19:40] <ravenshad> Tonight's topic is "What is domination to you?"....so lets start with this..
[19:40] <ravenshad> How do you define domination?
[19:40] <apanda> control
[19:41] <Jackal{s}> agreeable control over someone or body
[19:41] * zyanya listening intently
[19:41] <lil`dragn> taking control from someone who offers control willingly
[19:41] <^ntalia> at its best, it's ownership. it's taking responsibility for the care of and actions of another
[19:41] <ravenshad> Domination, to me, is the ability to take control of another within agreed upon limits (if any) and in a non damaging manner..
[19:42] <ravenshad> Ohhh..I like that definition talia.. :)
[19:42] <lil`dragn> whearther it be for a set time or for 24/7
[19:42] <^ntalia> :)
[19:42] <cheryl{RL> Perhaps someone willing to guide you...also taking care over you.
[19:42] <Jackal{s}> one must not abuse or hurt without the others permission
[19:42] <_mizu_> the control of one other another, with a strong careing way
[19:42] <zyanya> pushing in the right direction
[19:43] <kittn{L}> Leading in the right direction <smile>
[19:43] * ravenshad smiles..excellent
[19:43] <lil`dragn> one must not abuse that control or take responsibility with that control
[19:43] * apanda hears the meaning of D/s more than domination here
[19:43] <ravenshad> ok..so would being the type of person that just likes to tell everyone what to do, be a part of domination?
[19:43] <apanda> to me...yes
[19:43] <zyanya> i don't think so, that's being bossy
[19:44] <kittn{L}> <smile> wouldn't it be nice if it were that easy???
[19:44] <apanda> a take charge personality
[19:44] <cheryl{RL> apanda even if it is not consented too?
[19:44] <ravenshad> If that bossiness takes into consideration what is right for the people involved and the relationship, then yes it is part of domination..but if it's just someone who can't stand to not have their way, then no it isn't..
[19:44] * zyanya nodding in agreement with raven
[19:45] <_mizu_> no because most of them have no idea what they are doing (giggle)
[19:45] <Jackal{s}> I agree
[19:45] <apanda> cheryl{RL, domination is the act of taking over control of another with or without their consent
[19:45] <apanda> domination as WE know it...is consentual
[19:46] <chens{LM}> i think there is a difference from domming and bossing... i react to bossing with defiance and domming with submission... i think its in the way its done
[19:46] <chens{LM}> brb
[19:46] <Jackal{s}> apanda is that not slavery then
[19:46] <ravenshad> domination as it applies to BDSM is consentual..without consent it is not domination, it is dominerance..
[19:46] <ravenshad> we are talking in a BDSM context..
[19:46] <ravenshad> lets keep that in mind ok people?
[19:46] <apanda> ok ravenshad
[19:47] <ravenshad> no Jackal that is not slavery..
[19:47] <apanda> sub and slave or very close....a Master dominates
[19:47] <ravenshad> domination as it pertains to M/s is still consentual..
[19:47] <apanda> agreed ravenshad
[19:48] <ravenshad> Does domination include being a bully?
[19:48] <subdancer> if you give yourself as a slave you consent to all concerning Master
[19:48] <Jackal{s}> OK I agree on that but doesn't both parties have to agree of certain things?
[19:48] * apanda does NOT think so
[19:48] <ravenshad> I agree there dancer..
[19:48] <ravenshad> I don't think so either panda.. :)
[19:48] <kittn{L}> being domineering includes been a bully...not domination
[19:49] <apanda> a good Dom/me knows their sub/slave and knows how to get obedience without being a bully
[19:49] <ravenshad> yes they do Jackal..in the case of either relationship, each party agrees to the terms of the relationship..be they with limits, or without..
[19:49] <Jackal{s}> Now by Domination are we talking everyday life or behind closed doors?
[19:49] <ravenshad> either or Jackal.. :)
[19:51] <Jackal{s}> well during the day I guess my lady is a slave she waits on me hand and foot
[19:51] <ravenshad> Could be Jackal.. :)
[19:52] <Jackal{s}> but behind closed doors we discuss and agree on things so neither one feels degraded
[19:59] <kittn{L}> This is my first discussion night
[19:59] <MsDMeanr> dominance to me is really about control of ones self. And a sense of who and what you are and where you are going. Then, quietly asserting that over one who has similar, if not the same goals and dreams. They, of course, submit to that because they trust the wisdom and control.
[20:00] <zyanya> i like that, MsDMeanr
[20:00] <cheryl{RL> i like that MsDM
[20:00] <ravenshad> Ahhh..good point MsDM...self control is indeed a major part of BDSM..
[20:00] <Jackal{s}> I belive that to be true Msdm
[20:01] <Jackal{s}> listing to the other person though is just as important
[20:02] <MsDMeanr> I agree, Jackal
[20:02] <MsDMeanr> without communication, strong and true, there is little to build on.
[20:03] <Jackal{s}> Sure I set rules and guidelines but I want her to be comfortable also
[20:03] <cheryl{RL> True,,,Communication is important
[20:04] * zyanya furiously nodding head in agreement with MsDM and cheryl
[20:04] <ravenshad> listening is exteremely importatn..so would you say that practicing good communication skills is a must for a dominant?
[20:05] <MsDMeanr> it is a must for anyone in a relationship
[20:05] <Jackal{s}> yes the first and most important rule
[20:05] <_mizu_> very much raven
[20:05] <zyanya> it's a requirement in all relationships, but i think much more so in a BDSM relationshi[
[20:05] <apanda> if u cant communicate...there IS NO relationship period
[20:05] <MsDMeanr> it is very unfair for a dominant to expect a submissive to be a mind reader. . .and vice versa
[20:06] <Jackal{s}> without it there nothing
[20:06] <cheryl{RL> true and too open to getting hurt
[20:06] <ravenshad> Does domination stop the ability of the dominant to be open to the sub?
[20:06] <^ntalia> it is very important, listening and watching. a good Master needs to be as in tune with his slave or sub as s/he is with him/her
[20:06] <ravenshad> yes it is very unfair MsDM..yet it seems many expect jsut that..
[20:06] <subdancer> *dancer stretches and yawns
[20:06] <fae{NR}> not if time is set aside for the Dominant and the sub to talk on equal terms
[20:07] <Jackal{s}> the two should almost become one to enjoy it
[20:07] <zyanya> i feel that in order for the sub to please the Dominant, then there has to complete openness on both parts
[20:07] <cheryl{RL> Is there such a thing as a Dominant to be too caring? to intune?
[20:07] <subdancer> dancer wonders what the concept of equal terms means in a Master slave situation
[20:07] <MsDMeanr> no! it enhances it. communication with a submissive allows me to be clear on where I am going, what I am doing and why type thing. I give an order, I expect it to be followed. Often the submissive will not understand why I do so, until later. Usually said submissive comes to me laughing and says, "hey! I learned this!" I simply smile and compliment them on their genius! LOL
[20:08] <MsDMeanr> being a dominant is not about yelling and stomping my foot. If one wishes to submit, one does. It is always a choice for me.
[20:08] <MsDMeanr> was that confusing?
[20:08] <zyanya> no, cheryl, i don't think so...
[20:08] <subdancer> or a Master bitch situation :)
[20:08] <fae{NR}> cheryl, depends on what the sub wants/needs from a relationship, there are definately relationships where that is true, but the opposite also holds that there are subs who need a Dominant like that
[20:08] <zyanya> no MsDM, i understood it completely
[20:09] * apanda agrees and understand MsDMeanr`
[20:09] <zyanya> fae, i don't understand how a Dominant can be too caring
[20:09] <NoirRose> If a sub wants/needs a harsher Dominant, then a caring one wouldn't be right for that pairing.
[20:09] <_mizu_> when they quit pushing you to be better zyanya
[20:09] <Jackal{s}> I understand MsDM but how long have u been with this person fist starting out one needs to communicate
[20:10] <MsDMeanr> exactly!
[20:10] <fae{NR}> zyanya, some submissives may find an overabundance of caring limiting what they can do in a relationsip
[20:10] <NoirRose> And some Dominants can find that to be true as well
[20:10] * zyanya sitting back trying to figure it all out
[20:11] <Jackal{s}> then when more trust takes place less needs to be asked about
[20:11] <chens{LM}> i know that my Mistress cares very much for me and because of that i will get what i need... even if i dont like it at the time *grin*
[20:11] <MsDMeanr> I am one who is quiet, but loving. I am not so "harsh" I figure that before the collar goes on, there has been a LOT of communication. At that point, the communication style is set and continues through the relationship, growing as the relationship does.
[20:11] <ravenshad> OK..can some things interfere with domination?
[20:12] <MsDMeanr> YES!
[20:12] <NoirRose> Yes.
[20:12] <zyanya> real life?
[20:12] * MsDMeanr laughs and holds her hand to the sky!
[20:12] <ravenshad> oh heck yes real life can..
[20:12] * ravenshad giggles
[20:12] <apanda> r/l has to take presedence
[20:12] <ravenshad> how does one deal with those times when their domination is not as strong for whatever reasons?
[20:12] <Jackal{s}> everyday life
[20:12] <MsDMeanr> yes yes yes! I have just come through a time when my submissive here has been holding ME together. I have been dependant on him for emotional support
[20:12] <ravenshad> true panda, but for those in a 24/7..the D/s is part of their real life..
[20:12] <apanda> agreed
[20:13] <ravenshad> Do you feel that detracts from your domination MsDM?
[20:13] <MsDMeanr> because I need to be helped does not make me less dominant. It mearely means that I don't have what it takes to micro manage a submissive.
[20:13] <ravenshad> ahhh..good point :)
[20:13] <MsDMeanr> not at all. james knows that I am the dominant
[20:13] <MsDMeanr> there is no question.
[20:13] * MsDMeanr smiles
[20:13] <AlstrBlck> MsD, people forget, even Dom's and Domme's, Masters and Mistresses can hurt, too, and need support.
[20:13] <apanda> VERY MUCH SO
[20:13] <ravenshad> Ok..so is domination then, something the people in the relationship should *know* even when it is real quiet?
[20:13] * NoirRose nods at Alistair
[20:13] <Jackal{s}> this is when the sub needs to tell the dom respectfull that they are not being supportive
[20:13] <cheryl{RL> r/L...stress from life afffects things I think,
[20:13] * chens{LM} would not think less of her Mistress should She need her help on something
[20:13] * MsDMeanr nods
[20:13] <ravenshad> yes it does cheryl..
[20:13] <MsDMeanr> I believe so, raven
[20:14] <ravenshad> agreed Jackal..
[20:14] <^ntalia> yes, and people also forget that slaves and subs are real people too. not only for the pleasure of another but having their own feelings too.
[20:14] <MsDMeanr> I never raise my voice. I simply "expect" what I expect, and make that known.
[20:14] <ravenshad> but that is so hard to do..
[20:14] <ravenshad> Well said talia!
[20:14] <ravenshad> do you think that people often lose site of their humanity in a BDSM relationship? striving to be something more than what they are?
[20:14] <Jackal{s}> I expect mine to tell me when I am falling short in all areas
[20:15] <NoirRose> I think that's going to happen in any type of relationship.
[20:15] * apanda feels that as sub she is too support the Dom/me in any area needed...ie MsDrew
[20:15] <Jackal{s}> This way I know where to pay attention to
[20:15] <ravenshad> Good point Jackal..
[20:16] <ravenshad> so..would it be safe to say that a dominant should be open to learning from the sub?
[20:16] <MsDMeanr> there is more to a d/s relationship than orders and chores. Do not underestimate the power of ritual. It is one of the ways that the dominant holds onto that feeling/position when times are tough. And the submissive as well.
[20:16] * zyanya raising hand may we go back to the point of a Dominant being too caring? i'm confused
[20:16] <ravenshad> ok..everyone..back up..<giggle>
[20:16] * chens{LM} giggles too
[20:16] * ravenshad puts the backup lights on..
[20:16] <NoirRose> Sure, zyanya. <grins>
[20:16] <ravenshad> I agree MsDM..
[20:16] <chens{LM}> beep beep beep
[20:16] <AlstrBlck> If I iback up, I can't reach my keyboard.
[20:16] <chens{LM}> LOL
[20:16] <ravenshad> ok..may I ask what you are confused about zyana?
[20:16] <apanda> lol AlstrBlck
[20:16] <jeanne^> LOL
[20:16] <ravenshad> LOL AB
[20:16] <zyanya> i still don't understand how a dominant can be too caring?
[20:17] <^ntalia> it is hard to tell a master if he is lacking. but honesty is something a good master or mistress will require. and being a slave often means doing very hard things.
[20:17] * MsDMeanr plugs her ears from the beeping!
[20:17] <subdancer> a Dominant alays holds the chance of learning from a sub like a parent sometimes learns from a child
[20:17] <Jackal{s}> A dom should respect and meet all there subs needs wants and desires
[20:17] <zyanya> if they're caring, they won't stop pushing you to be better
[20:17] <fae{NR}> zyanya, i'd ammend that to read if they're too caring
[20:17] <cinna`> I can understand how a dominant can be too caring.......
[20:17] <ravenshad> Well, it really depends on the people zyanyan..
[20:17] <zyanya> or am i way off base here?
[20:18] <zyanya> yes, fae, thank you
[20:18] <fae{NR}> a carind Dominant can still push you, stretch you more than you wanted, but a too caring one wouldn't
[20:18] <ravenshad> in my opinion, a dominant who really cares about the sub and the relationship, will not allow that emotion to interfere with their "guidance" or "pushign" of the sub..
[20:18] <jeanne^> Isn't there a difference between being caring and being ineffective?
[20:18] <cinna`> My Master........has a hard time balancing his *respect* for me as a person and a professional with his *role* with me
[20:18] <ravenshad> Well said fae.. :)
[20:18] <ravenshad> yes jeanne..
[20:18] <cheryl{RL> Is there a possibility that if they care too much,,,it gets to be more Vanilla than BDSM?
[20:18] <MsDMeanr> can you explain that, cinna?
[20:18] * chens{LM} agrees with raven
[20:18] <ravenshad> That is a difficult thing to do cinna..
[20:18] <ravenshad> Yes cheryl..that can happen..but I think it depends on the people invoklved..
[20:18] <zyanya> i don't see it that way fae, if the dominant is too caring, they might push harder
[20:19] <NoirRose> Yes, that can happen.
[20:19] <cinna`> Hmmmmmmm....we are both professional people with many demands on our time and out ability to make crucial decisions
[20:19] <ravenshad> Some might yes zyanya..but many, do the opposite..
[20:19] <NoirRose> Might a dominant who is too caring not push enough?
[20:19] <cinna`> I preferr in my home to be submissive...but that can't infringe on my professionsal life
[20:19] <ravenshad> if they care "too much" (for some, NOT ALL) they do not enforce their rules because they don't want to impose on someone they love..
[20:19] <ravenshad> but..that isn't everyone..
[20:19] <MsDMeanr> no, I mean about caring too much, sweeting.
[20:19] <MsDMeanr> ah
[20:19] <MsDMeanr> I see
[20:19] <Jackal{s}> no cheryl I set guide lines to be followed and they will be but I would not embrasser her on purpose or treat her like trash
[20:19] <NoirRose> Or they might not want to be seen as pushing too much.
[20:19] * MsDMeanr nods her understanding
[20:19] <cinna`> He preferrs to be Dominant......but he has a hard time to make that switch to hometime from work time
[20:19] <zyanya> ok, raven, i see now
[20:20] <ravenshad> Is he new to BDSM cinna?
[20:20] <jeanne^> I think we have too many definition of "caring"
[20:20] <MsDMeanr> that would be a difficult switch for anyone, cinna
[20:20] <zyanya> thanks raven
[20:20] <ravenshad> I agree jeanne! But I think we have too many definitions of everything.. LOL
[20:20] <ravenshad> welcome :)
[20:20] <NoirRose> Perhaps a set ritual signifying the switch might help, cinna?
[20:20] <cinna`> He is not new.......about seven years......but he says it is I who am different
[20:20] * MsDMeanr smiles
[20:20] <ravenshad> OK..possibly different from any other sub he's ever had..which would be true for any of us cinna..
[20:20] <MsDMeanr> ritual is a definate plus!
[20:20] <MsDMeanr> :)
[20:21] <ravenshad> some subs have different needs.. :)
[20:21] <cinna`> that is a good suggest Noir Rose, Ma'am......but he is a little reluctant to see this as a problem.....
[20:21] <ravenshad> Ahhh..now there's an idea..ritual is a good idea!
[20:21] <Jackal{s}> WE all must learn and mal\ke changes it can not be one way
[20:21] <NoirRose> Mmmmm....you've sat down and talked with him about this?
[20:22] <ravenshad> This is true Jackal..but the essence of a power exchange is that it is mostly the dominant's way..and because of that the submissive feels fulfilled..
[20:22] <Jackal{s}> pepsi break
[20:22] <ravenshad> ok
[20:22] <cinna`> yes........he is ....I don't know... I think I don't know how to say waht needs to be said without he taking it as a criticism
[20:22] <cinna`> he=him
[20:22] <NoirRose> But there are some things that anyone in any kind of relationship needs to accept about the other person, though, some things that will not change.
[20:22] <ravenshad> This would brin in self control..
[20:23] <ravenshad> bring in even..
[20:23] <cinna`> I think when I try to make suggestions... it has the opposite effect of what I am trying to say
[20:23] <cinna`> It looks like I am taking control......when all I want to do is give it away
[20:23] <ravenshad> Yes..that is easily confused cinna..
[20:24] <MsDMeanr> then does it not come to a point where the dominant has to be able to hear these things and not take them as criticism?
[20:24] <Jackal{s}> zyanya may I sit down beside you once again?
[20:24] <ravenshad> approaching a dominant is difficult for a sub...so, from the dominants here, what are the best ways for your sub (or a sub) to approach you without appearing as they are topping from the bottom??
[20:24] <zyanya> sure Jackal
[20:24] * zyanya listening intently for answers to raven's question
[20:24] <Jackal{s}> I just ask mine to be open but I have final say
[20:24] <cinna`> that is the probelm , raven...... *smile*
[20:25] <NoirRose> I'd set aside time that's completely non-bdsm, so they can talk freely without feeling pressured by the wishes of the dominant.
[20:25] <cheryl{RL> ummm we have Free Speak time
[20:25] <AlstrBlck> a "discussion" period, where they can talk openly and not be punished, either immediately or at a later time, for what they have to say.
[20:25] <MsDMeanr> well, I simply keep asking. Also I try to insert a time period in the contract (say 5-6 pm daily) where the "dominant submissive" roles are released. But mainly I always come back to "talk to me, I want to know."
[20:25] <ravenshad> WEell, I've found that for me, appraoching it as something I need in the rlationship works, also..asking for a discussion where the "roles" of dom and sub are set aside can work as well..so long as I remain respectful..
[20:25] * ravenshad smiles..excellent
[20:26] <Jackal{s}> Yes otherwise as the dom how do we know what they think or feel
[20:26] <cheryl{RL> Also Journals are a Freespeak time.
[20:26] <ravenshad> Yes..journals are a free place.. :)
[20:26] * NoirRose nods. We're only human too, and sometimes need to be bullied into realizing that we make mistakes.
[20:26] <jeanne^> You have all just described communication techniques that aid in ANY relationship!
[20:26] <MsDMeanr> it is a matter of trust in the end. The dominant needs to trust the submissive to say what is on his/her mind (and teach them the security to do so) and the submissive has to learn to trust that the dominant is not going to "get upset" or such when the submissive does speak up.
[20:27] <ravenshad> cinna, I would say that you need to sit down with your dominant, and explain (without the dom/sub roles ) what is going on, what you think, and why you think it is a problem..
[20:27] <ravenshad> try to present it as something that is affecting you..and concering you..without applying blame..
[20:27] <ravenshad> for example..the dominant doesn't enforce his rules when he should be..
[20:27] <cinna`> Do you think that some sobs and some Doms are jsut not a good combinatin?? He has a hard time being 'in the role' with me.....because he wants more time when we are not in role to talk
[20:28] <cinna`> sobs=subs.....isa that freudian?
[20:28] * NoirRose nods at cinna
[20:28] <Jackal{s}> espically at the very beging of starting BSDM
[20:28] <ravenshad> a good way to approach that might be saying something like..I feel like I've got free reign, and this confuses me..I really miss knowing where my limits were and how far I can go..is there anything we can do to correct this?
[20:28] <AlstrBlck> It's like ANY relationship, cinna. Some people just don't work together, regardless.
[20:28] <ravenshad> this doesn't blame anyone..and presents it as a concern which affects you emotionally..it may be responded to better..
[20:28] <ravenshad> not sure if that will help..but there it is :)
[20:29] <ravenshad> that is true as well AB..
[20:29] <cinna`> I will give it another try.....
[20:29] <ravenshad> be well fae.. :)
[20:29] <Jackal{s}> We have a list right now of how far my sub may go
[20:29] <ravenshad> cinna, if you feel that frustrated ...he needs to know this as well..and the possibility that you two just don't "mix" in that way, is one that needs to be adressed..
[20:29] <ravenshad> good idea Jackal.. :)
[20:29] * ravenshad has requested one from her Master to help her feel more "secure" during this time..
[20:30] <ravenshad> Should good listening skills, and a willingness to admit a mistake, be part of domination?
[20:30] <apanda> good idea ravenshad
[20:30] <Jackal{s}> yes
[20:30] <zyanya> yes
[20:30] <apanda> of course
[20:31] <kittn{L}> but everyone has them to a greater or lesser degree
[20:31] <NoirRose> That should be a part of life, whatever kind you live.
[20:31] <cheryl{RL> i know I am experiencing something w/ Master right now,,,we have talked and talked and I feel ok with it,,,We would stop and discuss it when it became a problem.
[20:31] <AlstrBlck> absolutely, raven.
[20:31] <Jackal{s}> even experience people still make mistakes and need to know
[20:31] * apanda agrees NoirRose Ma'am
[20:31] <MsDMeanr> you know, raven, those are wonderful suggestions. However, I have to wonder something. . . .
[20:31] <ravenshad> exactly cheryl..
[20:31] <ravenshad> ok MsDM...wonder away.. :)
[20:32] <NoirRose> When you think you can make no more mistakes, you need to go back to the beginning.
[20:32] <MsDMeanr> How much trust are you showing, or not showing, cinna? And what does that say about your commitment? In my relationship with james, no matter HOW badly it may hurt me, he does not have the right to hold back from me. That is because he trusts me to deal with it. Even if I screw up. He knows I am human, and I am PAINFULLY aware of the fact.
[20:32] * MsDMeanr smiles
[20:32] <ravenshad> Good point MsDM..
[20:33] <ravenshad> but may I ask..why, whenever a sub states something like this, it is taken as mistrust of the dominant?
[20:33] <MsDMeanr> no, it is not just the submissive's fault. and I don't want you to think that.
[20:33] <ravenshad> I don't..I'm just asking..
[20:34] * apanda thinks that the Dominant may have insecurities also
[20:34] <ravenshad> because it comes up all the time..and I think it makes it so much harder for a sub to speak up sometimes..
[20:34] <Soulhuntr> Whats the statement shad?
[20:34] <MsDMeanr> If james could not come to me for fear that I would "take it as a slam," I would definately, upon learning of it, have to figure out what is wrong with MY style.
[20:34] <Jackal{s}> everyone makes mistakes
[20:34] <MsDMeanr> one of the main issues with dominance and submission is that the control AND responsibility is handed to the dominant.
[20:34] <cheryl{RL> like the fact that the Dominant did not instill enough trust for the submissive to come to the Dominant?
[20:34] <cinna`> well, Ma'am........ we have discussed this..... and He is quite aware that this part of the relationship isn't progressing.....we are best freinds in many ways...... and seek each other's advice at work all day ... so it would be a shame if we can't work this out
[20:34] <MsDMeanr> in a very narrow sense of the term
[20:35] <Soulhuntr> It depends on the nature of the 'concern'
[20:35] <Jackal{s}> and I belive in listing and learning
[20:36] <Soulhuntr> In theory, the sub trusts that it will all 'work out for the best', so any concerns are by definition a lack of some type of trust in that.
[20:36] <cinna`> exactly, raven.... He knows that I am honest with him.....some things He doesn't want to talk about... because He knows it is a problem too
[20:36] <Soulhuntr> That might not be important, or practical, but it is true.
[20:36] <kittn{L}> Just because we participate in D/s or BDSM is not insurance against the same problems in relationships that we have/had in vanilla ones
[20:36] <ravenshad> The concern stated to get this going was about ...the dominant listening to a sub stating that she feels something is a problem in the relationship, and refusing to discuss it..or even admit that it is causing a concern..
[20:36] <Soulhuntr> Kittn - form many of us it is... ther is no way for me to have some of the problems in BDSM I had in 'nilla
[20:36] <apanda> Dom/mes have insecurities also
[20:36] <ravenshad> I agree it is true Soul..but aren't questions, and concerns, a normal part of any relationship?
[20:36] <MsDMeanr> ummm cinna. . .in my NEVER so humble opinion, based ONLY on what you just said. . . .
[20:37] <ravenshad> I agree with that kittn!!
[20:37] <kittn{L}> There are still going to be communication errors...and misunderstandings...
[20:37] <Soulhuntr> Probably soo shad, but that doesnt change that it is a trust issue.
[20:37] <cinna`> yes, Ma-am
[20:37] <cinna`> ??
[20:38] <Jackal{s}> there has to be a trust issue
[20:38] <MsDMeanr> <cinna`> exactly, raven.... He knows that I am honest with him.....some things He doesn't want to talk about... because He knows it is a problem too. . . .<MissD> then it is time for you to evaluate this relationship as best you can, and then together make it best. But you cannot hold it on your own, and if you are not satisfied as it is. . . .
[20:38] <ravenshad> Well said MsDM
[20:39] <ravenshad> Soul, can a dominant make a mistake? and if so, should he/she admit it?
[20:39] * MsDMeanr mutters
[20:39] <Soulhuntr> Yes, and of course.
[20:39] <MsDMeanr> I made a mistake once. . . .
[20:39] <Soulhuntr> What does that have to do with it?
[20:39] * MsDMeanr gigglez
[20:39] <Jackal{s}> zyanya good to meet you cheryl hug and a kiss
[20:39] <cinna`> Okay......here is good example.....MsD......
[20:39] * apanda thinks Dom/mes are human and therefore will ERR
[20:40] <kittn{L}> admitting mistakes and working them out are part of the trust issue
[20:40] <ravenshad> ok..that is what originally started the exchange ...
[20:40] <NoirRose> Yes, we're very good at that. The problem is getting us to admit it.
[20:40] <cheryl{RL> if the Dominant makes a mistake...big one possibly...is He/She open to punishment as well as the subbie that makes mistakes?
[20:40] <cinna`> what did I say that lead you to believe that I am not interested??? This is a prefect example of our discussions..
[20:40] <ravenshad> so I just wanted to ask the question of you, since you werne't here to answer it when it first got tossed out..:)
[20:40] <zyanya> LOL@cheryl
[20:40] <ravenshad> Not in my opinion cheryl...
[20:40] <KimiD> <-thinks the Dom gets punished enough by themselves for realizing they did make a mistake
[20:41] <Soulhuntr> cheryl - no.
[20:41] * NoirRose nods at Kimi
[20:41] * ravenshad could never conceive of punishing her dom..besides, he does a good enough job of it on his own..
[20:41] <apanda> yes KimiD
[20:41] <ravenshad> well said Kimi..
[20:41] <Eric_> If I never admit that I am wrong (and it is totally possible for me to be wrong) why should my submissive listen to, or trust, what I say?
[20:41] <ravenshad> good point Eric..
[20:41] <apanda> because it takes a very secure strong person to admit a wrong Eric_
[20:41] <kittn{L}> Yes...and the same holds true of some subs...they need no punishment
[20:41] <ravenshad> subs are prone to overhwelming guilt..
[20:42] <ravenshad> but..that's another topic.. :)
[20:42] * cheryl{RL agrees w/apanda
[20:42] <Eric_> well, sorry, but, if you aren't secure and strong I don't think you have much biz being a dom <g>
[20:42] <NoirRose> So are Dominants, really.
[20:42] <MsDMeanr> Ok! I am confuzzled! deep breath!
[20:42] <ravenshad> What are some qualities that seperate a dominant from a bully?
[20:42] * MsDMeanr grinz and sits back, sipping her water
[20:42] <NoirRose> Please elaborate on that, Eric.
[20:42] <Soulhuntr> The victims dont vomplain :)
[20:42] <Soulhuntr> (complain)
[20:42] <ravenshad> true they don't..least not to their abuser.. :)
[20:42] <kittn{L}> LOL Soulhuntr
[20:43] <KimiD> lol daddy
[20:43] <Eric_> if you are insecure how can you possibly deal firmly with another person? won't you doubt yourself NoirRose?
[20:43] <Soulhuntr> Of course subs need punishment.
[20:43] <AlstrBlck> Ii make mistakes, and I'm not ashamed or embarassed to admit, to anyone - Dom or sub.
[20:43] <cheryl{RL> a bully does not build up their subbie,,,a Dom will want the subbie to grow?
[20:43] <Soulhuntr> Punishment has many uses... and some of them are punative.
[20:43] <Eric_> and if you aren't strong (of character and will) why should he/she obey/listen to you
[20:43] <ravenshad> good point cheryl..yes
[20:43] <ravenshad> I agree Soul..
[20:43] <ravenshad> Good Point Eric..
[20:43] <apanda> agreed Eric_
[20:44] <kittn{L}> My Master does not punish me...he feels I do not need it... his displeasure is enough...
[20:44] <NoirRose> A good point.
[20:44] <Eric_> but, the insecure/weak ones tend to be "found out" rather quickly anyhow
[20:44] <cinna`> I have been thinking in another conversation..........so..........
[20:44] <apanda> yes they do Eric_
[20:44] <ravenshad> Is this to say that a dominant can not have "weak" moments?
[20:44] <cinna`> to the Doms in the room........if you were feeling a little maxed out in your life
[20:45] <apanda> weak????
[20:45] <NoirRose> And that a dominant cannot be unsure of themselves at all?
[20:45] <Soulhuntr> Possibly cheryl - but it is not always the case that a dom cares or is responsabile for growth.
[20:45] <cinna`> and there were noticable problems with the relationship
[20:45] <Eric_> there is a difference raven, between weak moments and being weak of character
[20:45] <Soulhuntr> If I sign a 6 month contract with a sub for her service... I am NOT obligated to do anything of the time (helping her grow)
[20:45] <ravenshad> OK..just wanted to clarify that Eric..because I believe the same.. :)
[20:45] * NoirRose nods at eric
[20:45] <cinna`> would you preferr to just take a break fromt he relationship while you deal with all the other struff.....or just let the relationship limp along until you can deal with it?
[20:45] <NoirRose> Sorry, Eric, I think my shift key has cathair in it.
[20:46] <Eric_> lol, don't worry about it, i don't really care if you cap my name or not
[20:46] <KimiD> it IS a two way street here...if the Dom is having a bad time in life...there is nothing stopping the sub from continuing to behave the way she knows she should in the relationship to keep it going until the Dom can concentrate on the relationship
[20:46] <apanda> cinna`....that is why a time to talk on an even level is needed
[20:46] <ravenshad> This is true Kimi..but boy is that ever HARD to do..
[20:47] <zyanya> Kimi, i agree.....
[20:47] <Soulhuntr> I dont see the issue cinna.... a subs service to me is not predicated on how much time I have for her.
[20:47] <Soulhuntr> It shoudl not "limp" along at all.
[20:47] <apanda> if
[20:47] <Eric_> time issues should be dealt with up front, before the relationship commences, don't you think?
[20:48] <cinna`> I t is not about time issues
[20:48] <cinna`> it is timing perhaps but not time
[20:48] <Eric_> just like all other points of negotiation between dom and sub before a "contract" (for lack of a better word) is entered into
[20:48] <KimiD> eric..you can't always predict what life is going to throw at you and how much time your going to have to devote to everything
[20:48] * apanda just left a relationship due to lack of good quality time on the Dominants part
[20:48] <ravenshad> OK..this brings up a good question..is attention to the submissive, part of domination?
[20:48] <NoirRose> Definately.
[20:48] <apanda> yes
[20:48] <zyanya> i think so
[20:48] <MsDMeanr> definately
[20:49] * MsDMeanr nods
[20:49] <ravenshad> Should fluctuations in that attention be dscussed BEFORE a collar is placed?
[20:49] <kittn{L}> Yes...and that should be part of the negotiations too...
[20:49] * NoirRose nods at raven
[20:49] <Eric_> that's right kimi, but, you should have a method built in for dealing with those sorts of complications
[20:49] * apanda nods
[20:49] <MsDMeanr> but sometimes that attention is simply saying, "pet, I can't do this right now and this is why." then the submissive must choose whether he/she will hang through it. Again, it comes down to communication.
[20:49] * apanda agrees MsDMeanr
[20:50] <Soulhuntr> To an extent it is, but not always.
[20:50] <apanda> why not Soulhuntr
[20:50] <MsDMeanr> how so, Soulhuntr?
[20:51] <Soulhuntr> IF your paying attention (as a sub) you KNOW what is going on in your doms life... what explaination is needed?
[20:51] <zyanya> what is a good way for a sub to stay connected to their Dominant when an unforeseen emergency calls the Dominant away?
[20:52] <kittn{L}> or they are long distance...and there has been little time together...???
[20:52] <KimiD> continue the "rituals" they have when he's there
[20:52] * apanda thinks some subs are very needy and this needs to be discussed before the collar goes on also
[20:52] <MsDMeanr> that is in a 24/7 relationship, yes?
[20:52] <Soulhuntr> MsD - not all service contracts are based on "I get 3 scenes a wekk! With bonus orgasms"
[20:52] * MsDMeanr laughs
[20:52] <apanda> LOL
[20:52] <MsDMeanr> I agree, Soulhuntr
[20:52] * Eric_ chuckles at Soul
[20:52] <zyanya> no, we are an hour apart, but have the weekends together....He was called to CA for a family emergency
[20:52] <Soulhuntr> Phone? Email.
[20:53] <zyanya> i haven't seen Him in almost two weeks, and now He's very ill
[20:54] <ravenshad> Each relationship is different as to how much attention should be paid the submissive
[20:55] <ravenshad> I think the attention factor, is one that should be discussed before hand..as to what everyone's needs are..
[20:55] <ravenshad> as well as, what may happen if things get a bit "hairy"
[20:55] <cinna`> Well, Soul.... it is not a matter of knowing what is going on in the Other's life... but how does one manage the realtionship when you know it needs fixng and the time is not good and waiting too long will ruin the relationship?
[20:56] * cheryl{RL raises hand for previous question
[20:56] <Eric_> cinna, from my pov you must bring it to him, lay the ball in his court, and then it is up to him (the dom). part o' the responsibility, ya know
[20:57] <cinna`> Being totally aware of what IS going on in his life... I know He is not able to cope with yet another problem
[20:57] <NoirRose> Hello, Talent
[20:58] <sulis> can i throw something in
[20:59] <cheryl{RL> Well...someone asked..how do you keep in contact with your Dom when he is called out of town..unexpectedly?
[20:59] <Eric_> mmmm, cinna, when my life most overwhelms is when i most need kristy to tell me, hey, time out, here are my problems that i need you to help with
[20:59] * NoirRose grins.
[20:59] <ravenshad> I would say..telephone contact, mail..email if able to..same ways you would in a vanilla relationship..
[21:00] * cheryl{RL looks at z...anything else?
[21:00] * NoirRose nods
[21:00] <Eric_> what fun Soul, truly
[21:00] <sulis> there are those Doms that dont tell there subs everything that is bothering them or that is going on in there lives for whatever reason and although you can see that he is experieince stress unless he tells you what is going on there is not much you can do to help and not being able to help can make you feel a little distant from your dom
[21:00] * zyanya no
[21:00] <ravenshad> this is true sulis..very true..
[21:00] <apanda> true sulis
[21:00] <ravenshad> which raises the question, should the dominant look to the sub for support when needed?
[21:00] <zyanya> but none of those were available for this trip...and i am feeling lost
[21:00] <Eric_> yep, i tend to do that, and that is when kristy usually says, hey, i need you too
[21:01] <Eric_> depends on the relationship raven, it truly does
[21:01] <NoirRose> Yes.
[21:01] <ravenshad> zyanya, how long is the trip going to last?
[21:01] <Soulhuntr> raven - sometimes.. but not always.
[21:01] <subdancer> the ones i know say no way
[21:01] <ravenshad> this is true Eric..it does..
[21:01] <NoirRose> Gods know I look to my fae when I need support
[21:01] <AlstrBlck> those people, sulis, are those that are used to keeping things private... be it something understandable, or dark secrets from their past.....
[21:01] <Soulhuntr> I certainly will not bother my subs with many issues.. not their problem, not their issue... it really has nothing to do with them.
[21:01] <zyanya> raven, He got back today, but is very ill and i'm not allowed near Him or He will be hospitalized
[21:01] <ravenshad> I agree Soul..there are some things a person must deal with alone..but I think it also depends on what kind of "feeling" there is between the dom and the sub..
[21:02] <ravenshad> can he talk on the phone? zyanya..as difficult as it might be, all you can do is wait and be supportive of himm..(easier said than done, I know)
[21:02] <zyanya> i've written, talked with friends, and am still feeling lost
[21:02] <KimiD> it is nice when he shares and i can give advice or just be there to listen but i certainly don't expect or demand that he shares with me
[21:02] <ravenshad> I disagree there Soul..sorry
[21:02] * Eric_ is going to turn the keyboard over to kristy actually, she has some good input on this I think.
[21:02] <apanda> D/s aside....people can help people if allowed to do so
[21:02] <NoirRose> Yes, it would depend on whether or not it's strictly a D/s relationship, or a combination of others.
[21:02] <ravenshad> when something is affecting the dominant in the relationship, whether it is meant to or not, it will affect the submissive..makes it their problem as well..
[21:02] <zyanya> we tried talking today, but He spent most of His time coughing and trying to catch His breath
[21:02] <ravenshad> Ok Eric.. :)
[21:02] <ravenshad> that too NR..
[21:03] *** Eric_ is now known as Kristy
[21:03] <zyanya> i know i can only wait, but ..oh never mind
[21:03] <ravenshad> I'm sorry to hear he is that ill zyanya..I hope he gets better fast..
[21:03] <ravenshad> I do know what you mean by feeling lost..
[21:03] <zyanya> thanks raven....
[21:03] <cheryl{RL> dont give up z
[21:03] <ravenshad> if you would like, when the discussion is over, we can talk about it...ok?
[21:03] <zyanya> He's a doctor and they make the worst patients and i only want to be there to take care of Him, and i cant'
[21:04] * apanda knows zyanya, as she is a nurse
[21:04] * ravenshad hugs zyanya...it is the worst feeling..I do understand..
[21:04] * zyanya wiping tears
[21:04] <NoirRose> Oh, doctors make terrible patients.
[21:04] * NoirRose huggles zyanya as well
[21:04] <apanda> yes, they do
[21:04] <Soulhuntr> raven - it is not required to share everything with anyone, including a sub. When they can help, I let them.. when they cant I expect them to stay out of the way and let me deal with it.
[21:04] <Soulhuntr> When I have a problem and they ask endlessly "let me help" or "what is wrong" it is simply one more thing to deal with.
[21:05] <ravenshad> I understand that Soul..and that is fine...I personally have a difficult time dealing with that...
[21:05] <ravenshad> am learning..but...slowly
[21:05] * apanda does not deal well with that either
[21:05] <Soulhuntr> that is sort of my point raven :)
[21:05] <cinna`> That is part of the point Soul.........
[21:05] * cheryl{RL huggs z...I have a great shoulder...
[21:05] <Soulhuntr> "I have a hard time dealing with that"....
[21:05] <cinna`> your reaction is somewhat similar to Himself's
[21:05] <ravenshad> I do try not to nag about "what's wrong"..have gotten better at that..<giggle>
[21:06] <ravenshad> I think it is part of the dominant nature cinna..
[21:06] <Soulhuntr> that makes the issue about the sub...and it's not. Often the urge to "help" is not about helping, it is about solving the subs problem with the distance.
[21:06] <ravenshad> or..actually..the male gender..
[21:06] <cinna`> and I am not required to live my life 'on hold' in the dark until he has the resources to cope
[21:06] <ravenshad> men withdraw to solve their own problems..they do not want help unless specifically requested..
[21:06] <ravenshad> doms..do the same thing oftentimes..
[21:06] * Gauntlet1 nods
[21:06] * NoirRose nods.
[21:06] <ravenshad> THat is part of it yes Soul..
[21:06] <NoirRose> I do the same thing myself, and I'm very not male.
[21:07] <apanda> hehe NR
[21:07] <Soulhuntr> Men generally ask for help when help will help :) When there is no way to help, they wont ask.
[21:07] <Talent> Amen!
[21:07] <apanda> ego will stop a man from asking for help
[21:07] <Gauntlet1> we don't want to burden those close to us unnecesarily
[21:07] <ravenshad> Is this tendency to not ask for help, something that hidners domination at times?
[21:07] <ravenshad> I can understand that Gauntlet..because I do the same thing with certain problems..
[21:08] <ravenshad> ego will stop anyone panda.. :)
[21:08] <apanda> more men tho raven
[21:08] <subdancer> dancer raises her head and an eyelid to Soul
[21:08] <AlstrBlck> I don't agree, apanda. I will ask for help.
[21:08] <Soulhuntr> no... it doeasnt hinder me at all... when I need help I ask, when I don,t I cope on my own.
[21:08] <NoirRose> I would say yes...Though I think part of it is not wanting to let our subs know that we're vulnerable...
[21:08] <NoirRose> Have to keep up the image.
[21:08] <apanda> yer different AlstrBlck
[21:08] <Soulhuntr> The issue is about NOT feeling the need to make it an issue when no one ele can help.
[21:09] <AlstrBlck> why's that, apanda?
[21:09] <ravenshad> Can that be taken too far and seriously affect the relationship and the power exchange?
[21:09] * apanda is teasing apanda
[21:09] <Soulhuntr> can what be taken too far?
[21:09] <AlstrBlck> Great, now the subs are teasing themselves.. <LOL>
[21:09] * apanda is teasing AlstrBlck
[21:09] <Gauntlet1> It depends on how the origional dynamic was set up I think
[21:09] * NoirRose nods
[21:09] <cinna`> That is a huge part of the probelm......a problem that is interfering with the relationship is a problem that both people face...... so they must both be involved.....else the relationship may suffer ir-repairable harm
[21:09] <Soulhuntr> Why would I feel the need to conplain, whine or grumble about things no one can help me with?
[21:09] <ravenshad> Withdrawl...
[21:10] <ravenshad> to vent frustraton??
[21:10] <NoirRose> Venting is very therapeutic
[21:10] <KimiD> :smiles: because most people do daddy :)
[21:10] <apanda> agreed cinna
[21:10] <Soulhuntr> Well, I will complain in a humorous way.... but on the topic of venting there is no actual evidence that "getting it all out in the opne" helps at all :)
[21:11] <NoirRose> Ok...it makes me feel better, therefor I consider it therapeutic
[21:11] <ravenshad> I guess that's a matter of personal preference and experience Soul..
[21:11] <sulis> I think from personal experience sometimes when the Dom is fighting his own war it seems to come across to the sub like she is not doing enough or is not doing things right like everythign she does is a little wrong so it begins to make her feel like she is the reason for his problems
[21:11] <ravenshad> I know that for me, it helps me to be able to vent...:)
[21:11] <ravenshad> Yes..that happens sulis..
[21:11] <cinna`> actually ....there are many studies regarding stress that show that 'venting' is therapeutic
[21:11] <KimiD> it's very true..i've found that "venting" only harms the issue because most the time you aren't discussing things rationally
[21:11] <NoirRose> I'd tend to agree with that, sulis
[21:12] <NoirRose> Nah, you vent to people completely uninvolved.
[21:12] <ravenshad> venting isn't supposed to solve the problem..just clear the emotions that are clouding the ability to solve the problem.. :)
[21:12] <Soulhuntr> cinna , and lot of others that show that 'talking it all out' is not by definition helpful :) You can put science on the mind :)
[21:12] <NoirRose> Then you can sit down and discuss things rationally with the people involved
[21:12] * ravenshad giggles..we're off topic..
[21:12] <Soulhuntr> Thats sort of the point I am making.
[21:12] <NoirRose> Yay fuzzy science.
[21:12] <Soulhuntr> IF I have a problem >with< someone, I willt alk to them.
[21:13] <Soulhuntr> If I have a problem that is purly internal, than I wont talk about it unless I can get a valuable opinion.
[21:13] <Soulhuntr> I wont talk about it "just to talk".
[21:13] * ravenshad brings it back on topic..
[21:13] <cinna`> I think the operating issue Soul.....is that ....you need to talk about problems in the relationship... if you can't do that because you have a lot of other probelms getting in the way of the relationship...then you need to discuss how you will maintain the relationship in the meantime
[21:13] <ravenshad> is domination something that one can learn..or do you think it is an inherent trait?
[21:13] <subdancer> if there is something wrong just be there He will yank your chain <or hair> if He needs you
[21:14] <ravenshad> true dancer..easier said than done thoug...
[21:14] <subdancer> sorry thinking out loud
[21:14] <Soulhuntr> dominance is inherited.
[21:14] <Kristy> I think it is an inherant trait raven...it is something your born with
[21:14] <NoirRose> I think it's a combination of both, raven.
[21:14] <ravenshad> inherited?
[21:14] <sulis> But you have to understand soul the subs looking in at you doing this purely internal fight starts to believe that maybe it is her fault somehow that he is upset
[21:14] <ravenshad> or...genetic?
[21:14] <cheryl{RL> i would think born with..as i feel that submission is
[21:14] <Soulhuntr> if you accept my theory that "dominance" is the same thign as "alphaness".
[21:14] <sulis> born that way
[21:14] <subdancer> yuop yup
[21:14] * Gauntlet1 was always stubborn and self willed
[21:15] <ravenshad> I happen to think it is something a person is born with..
[21:15] <Soulhuntr> sulis - she should know better. If I am mad at her I will tell her, if she can help, I will ask. For her to pester me is just her wanting to solve HER problem with my behavior... it isnt about helping me. It is selfish.
[21:15] <NoirRose> I'd have to say primarily born that way, though...there's a lot of learning that needs to be done.
[Soulhuntr PING reply]: 2 secs
[21:15] <Bugs42`> simply what I have found, is that if I do not talk at least in terms of what is on my mind, it adds a burden to the relationship and theslave/sub wonders what she has done wrong, because I am quiet
[21:15] <Gauntlet1> some triats one has, others develop
[21:15] <ravenshad> but..how the person is raised and what their life experiences teach them..can affect whether or not they use that natural trait..
[21:15] <sulis> so you make this point in the beginning
[21:15] <Gauntlet1> I think it's one reason many come to it late in life
[21:15] * NoirRose nod at raven.
[21:16] <Kristy> to an extent raven...i was raised to be independant and in control of my life and yet I am still submissive
[21:16] <Gauntlet1> they have to throw off earlier conditioning, to relax into it
[21:16] <sulis> that you will always tell her if it is something she can help you with and when it isnt to step outa the way
[21:16] * cheryl{RL agrees with Bugs42
[21:16] <ravenshad> Is it the quiet that causes such a reaction in the sub, or is it the "feeling" that comes off of such a quietness?
[21:16] <Kristy> agreed Gauntlet
[21:16] <NoirRose> Probably a combination of both
[21:16] * ravenshad finds it much easier to hear "I have something on my mind, but it is not something you did"..this allows me to deal with quietness easier than just dead silence..
[21:17] <cheryl{RL> agreed raven...hard to deal with unknown silence
[21:17] * Gauntlet1 nods
[21:17] <NoirRose> Yes. I've found that that line works very well
[21:17] <cinna`> I think that we are born with both kinds of traits both sub and Dom
[21:17] <cinna`> I am VERY Dom in my work
[21:17] <sulis> the problem is not all doms do tht
[21:17] <KimiD> but you can tell by bodylanguage if it's something you did
[21:18] <cinna`> but I am very sub in my relationship
[21:18] <Soulhuntr> raven - I agree... feel free to ASK ,... but accept the answer "I will let you know if you can help" is the >end< of the conversation.
[21:18] <ravenshad> Not always Kimi..
[21:18] <cinna`> But Soul it is NOT the end of the discussion......because she can then chose to say adios amigos
[21:18] <ravenshad> no I couldn't cinna..not for that..
[21:19] <cinna`> you may be adding unbearable stress to the relationship
[21:19] * Soulhuntr *sighs*
[21:19] <ravenshad> I think we're saying the same thing Soul..just using different words..:)
[21:19] <KimiD> <-points out the ability to be selfless :)
[21:19] <ravenshad> easier said than done Kimi..<giggle>
[21:19] <KimiD> true but possible
[21:19] <ravenshad> yes..it is possible.. :)
[21:20] <ravenshad> As to the body language..
[21:20] <Soulhuntr> I know a lot of subs who will simply continue to go "whats wrong" , "hey, talk to me" , "when will you have time for me" , "hey, what about me?"... me me me.
[21:20] <ravenshad> I think that depends on the person..not everyone has the same body language..and often times, the body language one has when they are upset (no matter the source) is the same..
[21:20] <sulis> i agree with that raven
[21:21] <KimiD> but if you know something is wrong because he's quiet and he still throws you a smile or a touch then it's obviously not about you
[21:21] <ravenshad> lets say...the dominant is upset..body language could be things like standing straighter..muscle tenseness..maybe a tick in a facial muscle..a dark look in the eeyes
[21:21] <sulis> and saying you can tell by body lang doesnt always help in the beginning
[21:21] <ravenshad> those same "languages" show up if he is upset by something the sub did..or by his job..or the kids..
[21:21] <sulis> so do you set down guidelines at the beginning for these times
[21:21] <ravenshad> in that case..it would be helpful, in my opinion, for a simple "yeah I'm upset..but not at you and I need to work it out myself"..can alleviate alot of problems..
[21:21] <Soulhuntr> the trick is... if he is mad at you, he will correct you or punish you. If he does neither, then it isn;t you.
[21:21] <KimiD> it seems to me everyone wants to have a script to follow rather then just deal with situations as they come up
[21:22] <ravenshad> tue Kimi!
[21:22] <ravenshad> true even..
[21:22] <Soulhuntr> It shoudl not be that hard to figure out :)
[21:22] <NoirRose> People don't want to have to think.
[21:22] <Bugs42`> the easiest guideline is do not assume I am angry at you unless so stated
[21:22] <ravenshad> those are things many forget to look for..thank you for mentioning them..
[21:22] <Gauntlet1> communication is not always easy or direct
[21:22] <KimiD> np raven :)
[21:22] <ravenshad> I would say yes sulis..
[21:22] <zyanya> but that is so hard to follow, Bugs
[21:22] <ravenshad> there is that as well Soul..
[21:22] <ravenshad> True Gauntlet..it ins't..
[21:23] <ravenshad> isn't even..
[21:23] <zyanya> especially for one who is so used to the anger being directed to her
[21:23] <ravenshad> submission itself is hard at times..everything is hard..
[21:23] <Soulhuntr> As a dom, I have the power to correct r punish... specifically so I do not have to do a "slow burn" about stuff.
[21:23] <cinna`> well.......it seems to me that this whole conversation started due to the need to talk about not getting needs met in ther relationship to the point that it was profoundly affecting the relationship
[21:23] <cinna`> the unanimous answer was commkunication
[21:23] <cinna`> then we got onto this "the Dopm does want to discuss it right now"
[21:24] <Bugs42`> I think timely communication is very important
[21:24] <ravenshad> well..in discussions things branch off cinna..:)
[21:24] <Soulhuntr> ::nods to cinna:: True, but then again, I think many peopel have an inflated view of what their "needs" are, and use it to cover for stuff they just want gratification on.
[21:24] <NoirRose> Then it's time for the sub to start saying "Why is my Dominant not wanting to talk over problems with me?"
[21:24] <cinna`> so as I said....... if I am not getting my neds met.....and the Dom doesn't want to discuss or simply is not in a place to deal with it right now.....then what are the options
[21:24] <ravenshad> in your case..the way it is explained to me...yes, there is a major problem..and communication as well as comittment to changing it is the only way to fix it..if neither is available as an option, then reconsidering the relationship isall that is left..
[21:25] <ravenshad> Depends on the relationship cinna..
[21:25] <ravenshad> and the sub..
[21:25] <ravenshad> and the dom as well..
[21:25] <KimiD> you try to figure out if your needs are really needs or if they are wants and if they truely are needs if you can wait until he has time to disucss it with you
[21:25] <Kristy> good point Kimi
[21:25] <Gauntlet1> patience.tolerance....
[21:25] <ravenshad> good point Kimi..
[21:26] <subdancer> i know this is about Dominants but is the sub/slave right in keeping a problem from the Master/Dom He can not solve
[21:26] <KimiD> no..because your taking away his options
[21:27] <Gauntlet1> even if he cannot help, his understanding can be very comforting
[21:27] <ravenshad> I agree Gauntlet..
[21:27] <Gauntlet1> me waves to SilentOne
[21:27] <subdancer> why do most Dominants feel they have the same option
[21:28] <KimiD> i don't understand dancer
[21:28] <Soulhuntr> because they DO have the option :)
[21:28] <Soulhuntr> This is not a symetrical relationship.
[21:28] <subdancer> i mean it will help to turn to someone but they don't
[21:28] <Soulhuntr> dominants have options subs do not. It is in the nature of the relationship.
[21:29] <KimiD> you don't know that they haven't turned to someone..you simply k now it's not you
[21:29] <subdancer> so what You mean is as a rule it is my place to do so and Yours to work it out Yourself
[21:29] <Gauntlet1> some feel that it is a part of thier stength, KimiD
[21:30] <KimiD> dancer..there is a difference between letting your Dom know that there is a problem your working on and dumping it at his feet and saying "fix it"
[21:30] <NoirRose> Some dont' want to know that their Dominants can have problems, either...
[21:30] <ravenshad> that's true NR..
[21:30] <Gauntlet1> there is always a problem with pride on both sides, I think
[21:31] <ravenshad> yes..there is..
[21:31] <Gauntlet1> we want to be strong enough to deal with our own problems
[21:31] <KimiD> it IS a shock when you realize your "god" isn't a "god" but once you realize it it's easier to deal with :)
[21:31] <ravenshad> True Kimi :)
[21:31] <Kristy> :)
[21:32] * ravenshad has lost every question she had thought of on this topic..
[21:32] <ravenshad> sorry all...the discussion got sidetracked..
[21:32] <subdancer> a Dom becomes something to worship to me when He accepts He can have problems and make mistakes He is never a God to me
[21:32] <KimiD> :) i've enjoyed it
[21:33] <ravenshad> I did too.. :)
[21:33] <ravenshad> but then..I always enjoy a good discussion...:)
[21:33] <ravenshad> AH!
[21:33] * zyanya learned something
[21:33] * NoirRose grins. It's a good discussion
[21:33] <ravenshad> What are things that are *not* domination, in your opinion?
[21:33] <ravenshad> I'm glad zyanya..so have I actually :)
[21:34] <cheryl{RL> Yes...raven,,,looking forward to discussing some things w/ Master when he is back. Thanks
[21:34] <ravenshad> welcome :)
[21:34] <Soulhuntr> ::smiles:: Submission :)
[21:35] <ravenshad> LOLOL Soul..well gee..that's a given!
[21:35] * ravenshad giggles
[21:35] <Kristy> :)
[21:35] <ravenshad> Does force play a role in domination?
[21:35] <ravenshad> aka: bullying
[21:35] <NoirRose> No.
[21:35] <ravenshad> (no I am not talking about scenes/sessions that include "force")
[21:36] <NoirRose> There is a difference between Domination and bullying
[21:36] <Gauntlet1> bullying is a decrese rather than a building up
[21:36] <cheryl{RL> is force the same as expecting the sub to do something they havent done before while the Dom is away?
[21:37] <zyanya> LOL@cheryl
[21:37] <ravenshad> I don't think so, no cheryl..
[21:37] <ravenshad> what I mean by force is...demand a certain type of behavior from EVERYONE (not just your sub) and if you don't get it you either physically force the person to do it, or psychologically berate them until they do..
[21:37] <Soulhuntr> Force is NOT bullying.
[21:38] <Soulhuntr> Sure. That counts :)
[21:38] <NoirRose> No. That is not consensual.
[21:38] <zyanya> that sounds like my family, raven
[21:38] <cheryl{RL> z.....be nice now...:))
[21:39] <Soulhuntr> What your talkign about is arranging the actions of others to conform to what youw antr. Everyone does it to some degree or another.
[21:39] * cheryl{RL hugs zyanya
[21:39] * ravenshad is tired...
[21:39] <ravenshad> I need to get offline..I'm tired and have to get up early..
[21:39] * zyanya hangs head
[21:39] <ravenshad> will somene please..provide me with the log of the remaining discussion ??
[21:39] <KimiD> thanks for the discussion raven ;)
[21:39] <zyanya> nite raven...i'll talk to you later
[21:40] <Soulhuntr> Night raven :)
[21:40] <cheryl{RL> night A/all...been nice raven..
[21:40] <Kristy> night raven
[21:40] <SilentOne> be well, raven,
[21:40] <zyanya> nite all, i have an 830 class
[21:40] *** cheryl{RL (scarycherr@DLL2B305-03.splitrock.net) has left #Leather_and_Roses
[21:40] *** zyanya has quit IRC (Leaving)
[21:40] <ravenshad> nite all :)
[21:40] <ravenshad> HUGS
[21:40] <ravenshad> *poof*
[21:31] * KimiD wonders if the converstations going to keep going
[21:32] <NoirRose> I hope so!
[21:32] * NoirRose tries to think of something useful.
[21:32] <sulis> Tal is having a blast
[21:33] * NoirRose giggles, noticing the Dom to sub ratio tonight
[21:33] <sulis> he tends to agree with soul
[21:33] <NoirRose> About??
[21:34] <sulis> about the use of domination in everyday life
[21:34] <sulis> In any human interaction there is some play of dominance
[21:34] * NoirRose nods.
[21:35] <NoirRose> Do youthink that all natural alphas have the potential to be dominants?
[21:35] <sulis> Depends on there other skills
[21:36] <sulis> you can be a natural alpha but not be able to control yourself very well
[21:36] <sulis> kinda chaotic in your actions i mean that is just my opnion but if you can not control yourself why would i want you to control me
[21:37] <sulis> am i alone in this?
[21:38] <KimiD> <-thinks the convo died with raven's departure
[21:39] <sulis> ok
[21:39] <NoirRose> I'm trying to keep it alive!
[21:39] <NoirRose> Honest!
[21:39] <subdancer> well raven was hoping it would continue
[21:39] <sulis> i really enjoyed the conversation
[21:40] <sulis> I just wish you could hear what Talent is saying over here
[21:40] * NoirRose struggles with her natural lurking tendencies
[21:41] * sulis wonders if they have voice recognition software that will type for you in irc
[21:41] <NoirRose> Probably not.
[21:42] <NoirRose> I think it's got something to do with the fact that most of the people have left...
[21:42] <NoirRose> You, sulis, and I are the only ones awake.
[21:43] <NoirRose> Well, how do we keep this conversation going?
[21:46] <NoirRose> Anyhow...Someone think of something, raven had all the questions to ask!
[21:47] <Gage1> why is it neccesary to punish a sub when talk will do?
[21:48] <Gage1> or are there times when it will be beeficail to both
[21:48] <KimiD> because for some people..talking isn't enough
[21:48] <NoirRose> To emphazie that what the sub did was wrong. What situations would you do this in?
[21:48] <Gage1> beneficial
[21:48] <Gage1> I would do it when communication failed to make my point after repeated attempts
[21:48] <Bugs42`> to use it as a closure, a finality to whatever the punishment was for and no one says punishment has to be physical
[21:48] <Gage1> and then not in anger
[21:49] <Gage1> sometimes it can atone for guilt after a failure,I guess
[21:50] <NoirRose> Would you delay punishment on somehting, or do it immediately?
[21:50] <Gage1> waiting would only make it worse
[21:50] <Bugs42`> I prefer immediate, but that is not always possible
[21:50] <Gage1> and lessen the reason behind it
[21:50] <Gage1> true
[21:50] <Bugs42`> it should be as timely as possible
[21:50] <sulis> Does it make you a good dom to be able to deal fairly or rather justly when you are angry
[21:51] <NoirRose> Yes, it does. You need to be able to put your own angers aside at times.
[21:51] <Bugs42`> I do nothing when I am angry, I wait
[21:51] <Gage1> me too
[21:51] <Gage1> I don't want to be outof control of myself
[21:52] <Bugs42`> when I calm down, then I punish
[21:52] * Gage1 nods
[21:52] <NoirRose> How do you make it clear to your sub what the reason for waiting is?
[21:52] <Gage1> perhaps the venue is not right
[21:52] <Bugs42`> we talk beforehand and I explain
[21:52] <Gage1> like an infraction in public
[21:53] * Gage1 listens
[21:53] * NoirRose nods at Gage
[21:54] <Gage1> other times it might be the wrong time
[21:54] <Gage1> like when a sub is on her period
[21:54] <Bugs42`> I do not take being on her period into account
[21:54] <Gage1> things are different then it must be taken into account
[21:55] <Gage1> why is that, don't want to set precedents?
[21:55] <NoirRose> Why wouldn't you take things like PMS into account?
[21:56] <Gage1> the body is different then as well ,more prone to damage from anything physical
[21:56] <Bugs42`> I expect her to remember her position at all times and control as best as possible her anger/actions at all times
[21:57] <Bugs42`> punishment does not have to be physical
[21:57] <Gage1> hmmm
[21:57] <Gage1> true
[21:57] <NoirRose> Not at all.
[21:57] <Gage1> time outs work well at times
[21:57] <Gage1> a little time to be quiet and think
[21:58] <Bugs42`> that does work, as well as writing out what she did wrong or doing something else she does not like to do
[21:58] <subdancer> true
[21:59] * NoirRose smiles. Well, I don't think my pathetic skills at keeping conversations going are doing much good now.
[22:00] <Bugs42`> you did fine
[22:00] <Bugs42`> it is just getting late
[22:00] <Bugs42`> 2 and a half hours is a long discussion
[22:00] * Gage1 nods
[22:00] <subdancer> true
[22:00] * NoirRose nods. I tend to lurk most of the time anyhow
[22:01] <Gage1> I have to go learn the damnable pineapple knot tonight
[22:01] <Bugs42`> pineapple knot?
[22:01] <Gage1> to finish the ends of a deerskin flogger I'm making
[22:01] <Bugs42`> ok
[22:01] <Gage1> likr the ones heartwood uses
[22:01] <Gage1> Gordion knot, more like
[22:01] <Bugs42`> well all, morning comes early, I better be going
[22:02] <Bugs42`> goodnight, take care
[22:02] <NoirRose> Goodnight
[22:02] <subdancer> night Sir
[22:02] * NoirRose stays as token op.
[22:02] <Gage1> bye Bugs
Session Close: Sun Apr 11 22:02:22 1999