How Cyber Has Afected The Lifestyle

Greetings All, 

Below is the log of this week's discussion. I wish to take a few moments to publicly thank fae for hosting the discussion in my absence. I greatly appreciate it. Thanks fae!!! 

Warmly, 
Raven Shadowborne 

<fae{NR}> talked with raven a few weeks ago and she was afraid that these would become dependent on her, rather than self motivating 
<fae{NR}> Hello and welcome to leather and roses' weekly discussions on BDSM the 
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<fae{NR}> The topic tonight is "Online BDSM and it's impact on the lifestyle 
<fae{NR}> " 
<fae{NR}> we've already had a relation earlier that I will edit into this section 
<Mlt^jaz> I have a great little story about online bdsm... 
<Mlt^jaz> It all started in the summer last may.... 
<Mlt^jaz> I was in My local Channel and chatting it up with My usual bdsmers... 
<Mlt^jaz> I am not and have never been one for the cyber kind of thing.... 
<Mlt^jaz> just not real enough for Me...I do however find the online chat very stimulating in the fact that you can explore a great deal and learn a lot about a person...when for some...they find this means a  way to let down their gaurd.... 
<Mlt^jaz> "it's only the computer...no one really knows Me... 
<Mlt^jaz> well knew a girl online who felt that way and our conversations grew deeper and deeper...I knew her actual thoughts and desires...and all before ever setting a glance upon her eyes.... 
<Mlt^jaz> and that is how it went... 
<Mlt^jaz> then I asked her for a simple coffee...nothing more...all the safety nets ion place.... 
<ntalia> it is like that. two hours with someone here, is two hours of communicating. two hours in real life can include time spent alone in movie or eating, not sharing at all. 
<Mlt^jaz> and now she is My loving and worthy slave and wife to be. 
<Mlt^jaz> and.... 
<fae{NR}> okay, please bear w/ me while i go through this... 
<Mlt^jaz> we would have NEVER had a hope in hell of meeting rl if it was not for online chats./.... 
<Mlt^jaz> MY solemate online....who would have thought.! 
<fae{NR}> Let's open this with the question, Does online BDSM have an impact on how people treat/view lifestyle? 
[22:52] <_mizu_> i would say so 
<fae{NR}> could you elaborate on any particular areas or generalitys mizu? 
[22:53] <AlstrBlck> When Ii first came out 4 or 5 years ago as a Dom/Master, I was blasted on local BBS's for my beliefs.  Friends that used to hang around me all of a sudden decided that they were better than me. 
[22:53] <AlstrBlck> All because of what I am.  They treated me like a wife-beater or child abuser. 
[22:54] <_mizu_> from what i have seen going into most room's they treat all sub's as slaves, and thoes who don't comply are treated rudely 
[22:54] <AlstrBlck> When I pointed out to some that the dog-collars that they wear symbolizes submissiveness, I was flamed to the point that they were trying to force me off of BBS's entirely. 
[22:55] <AlstrBlck> Now, 4 or 5 years later, I still stand, not afraid to hide from what I am.  And most of those people are long gone. 
[22:55] <AlstrBlck> One herself that attacked me the most is now a Mistress (of sorts). 
<fae{NR}> and did this impact your every day life offline at all? 
[22:55] <cinna`> well.....I would definitel NOT be here without the internet 
[22:56] <cinna`> I would never have questioned myself at all nor analysed the traits that were there but not recognized with out this medium 
[22:56] <AlstrBlck> This was offline, fae.  Ii knew them all both offline and online. 
<fae{NR}> mizu, and do you think that the people who decide to try bdsm visit these rooms first and are turned off of the lifestyle? 
[22:56] <AlstrBlck> My attitude has always been, I'm not going to hide what I am or what I do to make you happy.   I am not ashamed of what I am. 
<fae{NR}> a very noble, and a hard road to walk 
[22:58] <AlstrBlck> A lonely road, too, fae, at times. 
<fae{NR}> cinna, here as in LnR, or here as in the lifestyle? 
[22:58] <cinna`> as in lifestyle 
[22:58] <_mizu_> i would say that it may make them wonder what they are walking into, i mean some are down right rude, and they are not even the Gor channels 
[22:58] <cinna`> changed my whole life 
[22:58] <cinna`> I got kicked and banned from a Gor channel my first time in  
[22:58] * AlstrBlck points out that he began in the Gorean Channels... 
[22:59] <cinna`> only lasted about 2 minutes 
<fae{NR}> cinna, when you first looked into bdsm online, did you first run across channels like the ones mizu is talking about? 
[22:59] <Mlt^jaz> gor is not bdsm/// 
[22:59] <cinna`> yes 
[22:59] <AlstrBlck> Gor is not. 
[22:59] <cinna`> I didn't know anything 
[22:59] <cinna`> and I am a professional feminist 
[22:59] <_mizu_> no, but most do not relize that 
[22:59] <cinna`> really that is how I make my bread 
[22:59] <Mlt^jaz> There are many different chat rooms...and many different veiws in each one  mizu 
[22:59] <_mizu_> damm, guess we can't date cinna (giggle) 
[22:59] <AlstrBlck> The people that follow the Gorean Idealism are not your usual BDSM crowd. 
<fae{NR}> actually, Gor is a branch that is related to the lifestyle that can't be ignored...but that's a discussion for some other time 
[23:00] <Mlt^jaz> some are cyber... 
[23:00] <cinna`> L&R is one of the only places where I was invited to ask questions in a supportive way 
[23:00] <Mlt^jaz> some are local and discuss local issues and bdsm in general... 
[23:00] <Mlt^jaz> no cyber at all. 
[23:00] <Mlt^jaz> I agree fae 
[23:01] <cinna`> lol.....I felt VERY pressuredc to cyber when I first started coming to the channels 
[23:01] <cinna`> you were nothing if yuo didn't cyber 
<fae{NR}> okay, another question, what is the difference between cyber and lifestyle? 
[23:01] <AlstrBlck> cinna, you can ask everyone here that knows me.  I was gone for almost 2 years from the Net, and when I got back on, this was the FIRST place I came, because A:  I missed everyone, and B:  This was the only channel I've seen where people can say something and not get blasted for it. 
[23:01] <AlstrBlck> Hey cinna, I don't cyber at all.  I know what you mean.  I had a woman cuss me out because I __wouldn't__ talk dirty to her!  
[23:02] <cinna`> When I think back to my first visits here... I didn't know any terms or any philosophy 
[23:02] <_mizu_> hell of alot fae, atlest from how i was trained 
[23:02] <Mlt^jaz> cina...our local channel.... is just a place to meet and discuss issues...and there are lots of channel that are specifically cyber..snd you just have to look for that. 
[23:02] <cinna`> I just asked questions and somethimes they came out offensive though I did not mean them that way 
[23:02] <Mlt^jaz> we met in a discussion channel.. ( My slave and I) 
[23:02] <cinna`> but in here.......people just pointed out to me that what I just asked held an inherent bias 
[23:02] <Mlt^jaz> neither of us are ionto the cyber thing. 
[23:02] <cinna`> so I learned instead of getting flamed 
[23:03] <Mlt^jaz> our choice :) 
* fae{NR} nods to Mlt^jaz * 
[23:03] <Mlt^jaz> yes... 
[23:03] <Mlt^jaz> there are many mailing list like that as well. 
<fae{NR}> (side note, I'm e-mailing the log to raven as is, so e-mail her if you want your nicks changed) 
[23:03] <_mizu_> this was one of the few channel's that let me be how i was trained, and all learned from it 
<fae{NR}> What are the differences between cyber and lifestyle in the practical sense?  And what are the freedoms/limitations of each? 
[23:04] * cinna` hates cyber and does NOT ever indulge 
[23:04] <Mlt^jaz> good question 
[23:04] <AlstrBlck> I've learned more talking to people in this channel then all the other channels combined. 
[23:04] <_mizu_> cinna, how i was trained would be a bit rough on you, sorry 
<fae{NR}> cinna, what is it that you hate about cyber? 
[23:04] <Mlt^jaz> I have never cybered....however.... 
[23:05] <cinna`> I need to feel a connection 
[23:05] <cinna`> and I need to be reassured afterwards 
[23:05] <cinna`> cannot stand cyber 
[23:05] <cinna`> I have tried it as I say 
[23:05] <cinna`> and in a very supported way too 
[23:05] <_mizu_> cyber dose not allow for the sutilly's of expression, for instaznce there are six diffrent way's to bow to someone 
[23:05] <cinna`> it wasn't that the Dom was insensitive 
[23:05] <cinna`> he was very sensitive 
[23:05] <cinna`> I just can't do it 
[23:06] <Mlt^jaz> there are lorts of ppl out there who are not at all into the lifestyle and who come into cyber rooms to explore and sometimes toy with those who take the cyber aspecs very seriously.... 
[23:06] <Mlt^jaz> and then are revealed as the "fakers" they are... 
[23:06] <Mlt^jaz> in r/l 
[23:06] <_mizu_> five way's to kindly ask without saying anything 
[23:06] <Mlt^jaz> as seen at munches and meetings... 
<fae{NR}> cinna, thank you...cyber, just like lifestyle isn't for everyone (even who's into bdsm) 
[23:07] <Mlt^jaz> cybers Doms and such...soley to troll. 
<fae{NR}> Mlt^jaz, is it possible to be into BDSM but online only, and not be lifestyle? 
[23:07] <Mlt^jaz> Yes...certainly.... 
[23:07] <_mizu_> cyber is limited, especilay for how i was trained 
[23:08] <Mlt^jaz> There are many who are "all talk and no action" so to speek... 
[23:08] <Mlt^jaz> however.... 
[23:08] <AlstrBlck> My head hurts now.... 
<fae{NR}> cinna has already talked about some of the limitations of cyber, the lack of personal contact as well as the lack of physical reassurance afterwards...but are there good things about cyber? 
[23:08] <Mlt^jaz> we see...many Doms...who are there simply to find submissive fems....to fulfill their sexual desires... 
[23:08] <AlstrBlck> did I miss anything? 
[23:08] <Mlt^jaz> yES! 
[23:09] <_mizu_> it allow's us to meet, to find other's of are kind 
[23:09] <Mlt^jaz> One thing that is good is this... 
[23:09] <Mlt^jaz> that and  
[23:09] <_mizu_> if it was not for this, i would be totaly alone  
[23:09] <Mlt^jaz> the fact that it give ppl a place to explore fantasy without getting physically hurt/ 
[23:10] <Mlt^jaz> or emotionally. 
<fae{NR}> Okay, i'm getting a feeling that cyber is taking on two different meanings here...i've heard cyber depicted as 1. online scening, and 2. talking with others online.  we should probably make a distinction between the two 
[23:10] <_mizu_> here i have a home, a plcae, in r/l i have nothing  
[23:10] * Mlt^jaz hugs mizu 
<fae{NR}> Mlt^jaz, but isn't the ability to emotionally hurt someone over cyber=relationships easier than in rea life? 
[23:11] <cinna`> lol........deadly silence wouldn't you say? 
[23:11] <Mlt^jaz> to Me....online sceening is true cyber/... 
[23:11] <_mizu_> because i live where there is no BDSM sceen, heel i have to leave the state to just go visit Goth's! 
<fae{NR}> mizu, i know how that is 
* fae{NR} gryns * 
[23:11] <AlstrBlck> which state, mizu? 
[23:12] <_mizu_> Kansas, Black hole out the US Sir 
[23:12] <AlstrBlck> I am in Indiana, in a county where BDSM material (books, magazines, videos) are illegal. 
<fae{NR}> Mlt^jaz, so what would you term what we do here in LnR, since it isn't about online scening? 
[23:12] <_mizu_> companionship, to let us know we are not alone 
[23:13] <_mizu_> i ledt my last family, this is my new one 
[23:13] <_mizu_> i know i live, i have a home where i can be me 
[23:14] <_mizu_> even if they are scattered accross the world 
[23:14] <_mizu_> i have a bit of home 
[23:14] <_mizu_> it let's me live 
[23:14] <_mizu_> it let's me be 
* fae{NR} smyles...so when you travel, you can actually try and meet your family face to face for the first time * 
[23:14] <AlstrBlck> I agree, mizu.  This is home here.  I know regardless of how alone Ii may be or feel, that I have family here. 
[23:15] * cinna` shrieks and huggles dragon 
[23:15] * Amax watches the 'e' from his last line role away 
[23:15] <Mlt^jaz> fea.... 
[23:15] <_mizu_> i try fae, sorry i can not make covergance this time, think i would have fun 
[23:15] * lil`dragn huggles cinna....:} 
<fae{NR}> Okay, we've talked about some of the limitations and advantages to cyber (among a host of other things), now what are some limitations/advantages in real life lifestyle that are not in cyber (w/o recapping the ones mentioned for cyber) 
[23:15] <Mlt^jaz> unfortunately...I have not been in l&r long enough to answer that... 
[23:16] * Mlt^jaz takes a rain check :) 
<fae{NR}> mizu, there's always next time 
[23:16] * lil`dragn greets Mlt^jaz...:} 
<fae{NR}> that's okay Mlt^jaz, it's a very dynamic family 
[23:17] <Mlt^jaz> yes :) 
[23:17] <_mizu_> the touch fae, words are nice, but being av\ble to feel the warm skin against your's, to see the eye's as they look into your 
[23:17] <Mlt^jaz> well....a limitation....to Me...is a oline slave is Nothing like a r/l one :)) 
<fae{NR}> very good mizu (also agrees) 
[23:17] * lil`dragn misses the soft gentle loveing touch.....<sigh> 
* fae{NR} nods and nods again * 
<fae{NR}> but are there any limitations to r/l that we don't run into for cyber? 
[23:18] <_mizu_> this work's for now, because i serve no one, if i becomes incolved again, doubt it would be so 
[23:18] * cinna` has already said enough on that subject 
[23:18] <Mlt^jaz> certainly.... 
[23:18] <Mlt^jaz> we are anything we wish in cyber... 
[23:19] <Amax> Perhaps, Mlt 
[23:19] <AlstrBlck> not all, Mlt. 
<fae{NR}> i always thought that one advantage cyber had was it is easier to imagine and explore limits, both soft and hard. 
[23:19] <Mlt^jaz> I agree. 
[23:19] <AlstrBlck> Some of us are quite candid and truthful online. 
[23:19] <Amax> But in ways our true selves show through 
[23:19] <Mlt^jaz> Yes... 
[23:19] <_mizu_> knowing when to say "stop", no pain in cyber (giggle) 
[23:19] <Mlt^jaz> true fae.... 
[23:20] <Mlt^jaz> although it has to be understood that r/l is much different./ 
* fae{NR} gryns at mizu * 
<fae{NR}> mizu, no pain, or just no physical pain.... 
[23:20] <Mlt^jaz> Yes...that is an advantage tocyber Amax 
[23:20] <Mlt^jaz> :) 
<fae{NR}> or maybe i should expand the question, is it possible to cause pain in Online BDSM? 
[23:20] <Mlt^jaz> our inhabitions can be freed. 
[23:20] <Mlt^jaz> Yes... 
[23:20] <_mizu_> my r/l level's are high, but even i can push the cyber stuff (giggle) 
<fae{NR}> how so? 
[23:21] <cinna`> psycchological pain fae.....and lots of it 
[23:21] <Mlt^jaz> I have known submissive to place clothes pins and such objects online... 
[23:21] <_mizu_> emotional yes, being toyed with alway's hurt's 
[23:21] <Mlt^jaz> popscicles .. 
[23:22] <cinna`> no.........not toyed with.......just......when you are totally exposed  
[23:22] <cinna`> bare nerve and sinew to the air 
[23:22] <cinna`> and no one there to help put humpty dumpty back together again 
[23:22] <_mizu_> getting involved then finding out, the Dome is married alway's suck's 
[23:22] <cinna`> it is awful 
[23:22] <Mlt^jaz> I have a question.... 
[23:22] <cinna`> good night talia 
<fae{NR}> feel free to ask Mlt^jaz 
[23:23] <Mlt^jaz> In a cyber relationship....who is topping...the submissive or the DOM>? 
[23:23] <Mlt^jaz> who has control? 
<fae{NR}> good question...i have actually seen/experienced it going both ways...it really depends on both/all the people involved 
[23:24] <_mizu_> i am as i am in r/l, but i have seen sub's uses it against a Dom 
[23:24] <cinna`> hmmmmmm 
[23:24] <cinna`> how did \they do that? 
[23:24] <cinna`> I don't understand 
[23:24] <cinna`> if you are submissive .........then you are submissive 
[23:25] <Mlt^jaz> I agree...to Me...they have the ultimate....the lil 'x' in the corner. :) 
[23:25] <_mizu_> by playing two Dom's against eachother, hard to see how thing's are working if word's are all you see 
[23:25] <Mlt^jaz> yes you are ....but in control 
[23:25] <Mlt^jaz> Yes 
[23:25] <Mlt^jaz> ! 
<fae{NR}> but cinna, a submissive can control (or seemingly control) their reactions to suit what they want and force the Dom/me down other paths 
[23:25] <AlstrBlck> uh, mizu?  Can we not go there, please? 
[23:26] <_mizu_> yes Sir 
[23:26] * _mizu_ sit's quietly 
[23:26] <AlstrBlck> Thank You.  brings up bad memories of someone. 
* fae{NR} nods in understanding * 
[23:26] <cinna`> so they are not really cybering then 
[23:26] <cinna`> they are just playing ... not playing 
[23:26] <cinna`> pretending 
<fae{NR}> cinna, couldn't a paralled be drawn between that and "topping from the bottom" in r/l though? 
[23:28] <Mlt^jaz> good question fae... 
[23:28] <_mizu_> r/l it's harder to do, no private messages there 
[23:28] <Mlt^jaz> great mind 
[23:28] <Mlt^jaz> :) 
[23:28] <Mlt^jaz> Yes...and Doms who can read minds :) 
[23:28] <Mlt^jaz> LOL 
* fae{NR} is just trying to keep the discussion rolling * 
<fae{NR}> Okay, new direction, Has Online BDSM influenced areas of lifestyle, and if so how? 
[23:29] <AlstrBlck> God, YES! 
[23:29] <AlstrBlck> Look at the style of clothing these days! 
<fae{NR}> i see the 60's in the 90's fashion 
* fae{NR} gryns * 
[23:30] <AlstrBlck> Teens running around in latex and corsets, bracelets in the styles of restraints... 
[23:30] <_mizu_> ohh yea 
<fae{NR}> and do you think these teens realize what they're wearing symbolizes? 
[23:30] <_mizu_> very noticable 
[23:31] <Amax> There have always been teens dressing like that... 
[23:31] <AlstrBlck> No, they don't, fae. 
[23:31] <_mizu_> that they have no idea what they wear 
[23:31] <AlstrBlck> I have asked a few, and their comments are usually "I'm wearing it because Marilyn Manson is wearing it", or some other star. 
[23:31] <Mlt^jaz> but is that do to online bdsm? 
<fae{NR}> so how has this affected lifestyle? 
<fae{NR}> ty Mlt^jaz (was about to address that myself) 
[23:32] <Mlt^jaz> :) 
[23:32] <Mlt^jaz> I like you fae...great mind :) 
[23:32] <Mlt^jaz> LOL 
[23:32] <_mizu_> ohh yea, ever read some of the discription's of poeple as they eneter a channel 
[23:32] <AlstrBlck> Well, makes finding some of the stuff (restraints, whips, etc), easier to find now. <G> 
[23:32] <Mlt^jaz> think alike./ 
[23:33] * _mizu_ giggles 
* fae{NR} gryns at Mlt^jaz...i've been told i'm a unique one * 
* fae{NR} giggles * 
[23:33] <Mlt^jaz> yes you are.\ 
[23:33] <Mlt^jaz> and you giggle :) 
[23:33] <Mlt^jaz> LOL 
[23:33] <Mlt^jaz> now... 
[23:33] <_mizu_> you just need a good tack shop Sir, all item's are esy to find in Oklahoma 
[23:33] <AlstrBlck> when they made fae, they broke the mode, and shot the designer... <G> 
[23:33] <Mlt^jaz> the question... 
[23:33] <AlstrBlck> mold, even! 
* fae{NR} blushes under all this flattery * 
[23:33] <Mlt^jaz> :) 
[23:34] * _mizu_ smiles 
[23:34] <_mizu_> jezzz,. she look's so cute! 
<fae{NR}> o~ but i'm just an ordinary gal, normal in evry way...honest! 
[23:35] <Mlt^jaz> liar! 
<fae{NR}> back to the topic (i know it's around there somewhere) *gryn* 
[23:35] <Mlt^jaz> online bdsm has influenced ppl in this aspect....IMO.... 
[23:35] * Amax ponders anyone being ordinary... 
[23:35] * _mizu_ giggles 
[23:36] <Mlt^jaz> it has made fantasy that much more easy to explore...for the same fact I stated earlier... 
[23:36] <_mizu_> it has, have seen girl's in collar's and they have no idea what they mean, "ohh i just thoght it looked cute" 
[23:37] * _mizu_ giggles 
<fae{NR}> does anyone think people use Online BDSM as a gateway into Lifestyle? or it has resulted in such? 
[23:37] <Mlt^jaz> for ppl who have been in this lifestyle ...and not know what it was.... 
[23:38] <AlstrBlck> hehee mizu, when I see those girls, walking around in collars...  I'm sorry, the Gorean in me rises to the top for a minute... <EG> 
[23:38] <Mlt^jaz> can now see that there are many others of like minds...and they (to put it blunt) and NOT wierd 
[23:38] <_mizu_> some have, alot use it as a play tow 
[23:38] <_mizu_> sorry toy 
[23:39] <Mlt^jaz> are 
[23:39] <Mlt^jaz> I went online a few years ago...and found I was not weird... 
[23:39] <_mizu_> i have fun and ask then who their master is Sir, then snap a leash on them when they don't have one (giggle0 
[23:39] <Mlt^jaz> and that My fantasies were cherished and equaled. 
<fae{NR}> How often do you think people wanting to explore bdsm are turned off by what they see online in some of the channels discussed earlier? 
[23:40] <AlstrBlck> I just want to throw them to the ground, bind them, cut their clothes off, and return them to my home stone for branding... ;} 
[23:40] <Mlt^jaz> Not many....IMO 
[23:40] <_mizu_> if they want to learn, they look for thoes that will help 
<fae{NR}> (for thos who weren't hear for that, channels discussed earlier were those that are based on ridicule towards subs/slaves and discourage questions) 
[23:41] <_mizu_> that is how i found this one, just walked in, (giggle) now an op and still have no idea why 
[23:41] <Mlt^jaz> LOL 
<fae{NR}> just cuz you're cute and been here for so long *gryn* 
[23:42] <Mlt^jaz> :) 
[23:42] <_mizu_> not that long (giggle) 
END