Presents:
BDSM Discussion 1
Learning
The Lifestyle
All Comments Posted Here With Permission Of The Participants
<raven{Az}>
OK all..thank you for coming tonight. I am excited (and a bit nervous)
..LnR is starting something new. Weekly discussions on BDSM..
<raven{Az}> First off: If I dissappear..it may be due to a power loss..just keep going.. :)
<raven{Az}> I figured we would start these discussions with something that is very important to those in the lifestyle..learning it..
<raven{Az}> with the advent of IRC..there is a major influx of newbies (as they are called) to BDSM...and unfortunately, there is a deficit of good information...
[19:51] <Azmadeus> True love there are a lot of newbies....Me for one....
<raven{Az}> Well, I think the first thing people need to understand is that their emotions are not uncommon..that others have felt the same way..
<raven{Az}> tonight's discussion will be a question/answer format..which hopefully will generate some discussion..
<raven{Az}> How did you feel when you first figured out your feelings were those of a Dom or a sub?
[19:54] <Azmadeus> How did I feel......Excited....angry....
[19:54] * Azmadeus waits for other answers.....*Psst.....dont make me face the teacher alone!.....Come on people
[19:54] * LadyMist leaves the gift wrapping tabelt o find a chair...smiling
[19:54] <Bugs42`> me, I felt afraid of my feelings.... I enjoyed the feelings but felt they were strange
<raven{Az}> I was confused..scared out of my mind..and thought I was sick somehow..was very hard to define the feelings..
[19:55] <LadyMist> I felt like I was a freak...of course that was third grade
<raven{Az}> How did you resolve those feelings?
[19:55] <Azmadeus> Third grade....oh my....
[19:55] * ananda{R} was relieved, because she finally stopped struggling
[19:56] <Mongoose> Ron: hello, I must be lagging
[19:56] <LadyMist> yes had my first pony experience in thrd grade...spoiled me rotten
<raven{Az}> WOW..that was young LadyMist..how did you learn of BDSM so young?
[19:57] <LadyMist> I didn't know.....just knew I loved my best friend and she loved pretending she was a horse...:)
[19:57] <Mongoose> well I'm not active in BDSM, so I guess I don't get to answer
<raven{Az}> Ahhh..now that's one way to figure it out.. :)
[19:57] <LadyMist> and later I discovered that I felt sexually about her..and the games we played
<raven{Az}> Mongoose, you've told me that you have dominant tendencies..how you are learning of those, and accepting them is relevant here..
<raven{Az}> excellent.. :)
<raven{Az}> I, like many others, resolved those feelings with the internet..
[19:59] <Mongoose> LadyMist: most people look all their lives for a map of their soul... grade school... hhmmm
[19:59] <Mongoose> rave: well I've also told you I *can switch ;)
<raven{Az}> yes you have..
<raven{Az}> that is, in my mind, more confusing..to be a switch..
[19:59] <LadyMist> didn't need to look....I have always been 'here' and I can switch too...'WEG"
<raven{Az}> I've switched..just don't like it
[20:00] * ananda{R} fell into the net bdsm accidentally
[20:00] <Mongoose> rave: LadyMist reminded me, that when I was very young an older girl used to bite my back... hhmmm... repressision
<raven{Az}> could be Mongoose..
[20:00] <LadyMist> BTW...I am a plyamorous bisexual switch....if that won't inspire discussion nothing will''G'
<raven{Az}> I remember thinking of things like spanking, bondage and whips in my pre-teens..
<raven{Az}> thought I was nuts..never told anyone..but never could keep the "kink" out of my sex life
<raven{Az}> well LadyMist..I am bi and poly..just not a switch..though it seems I can switch with a particular person
<raven{Az}> So..How did you resolve the feelings and gain acceptance of your BDSM self?
[20:01] * Mongoose thinks he just got dropped on the head as a child
<raven{Az}> Does anyone remember what process they went through before they gained acceptance of themselves?
[20:02] <LadyMist> abuse
<raven{Az}> abuse LadyMist?
[20:03] <LadyMist> lots of abuse
<raven{Az}> can I ask how that helped you gain acceptance?
[20:03] <Azmadeus> Of what type Lady Mist.....or is that too personal
[20:03] <LadyMist> my ex.....made me reveal my deepest fantasies,,,,then used them against me
<raven{Az}> ouch.. :(
[20:03] <LadyMist> nope not too personal
[20:03] <LadyMist> after which I decided that I was not wrong or preverted
<raven{Az}> I can see how that would help you to gain acceptance of yourself..
[20:04] <LadyMist> that I deserved to have my needs met...
<raven{Az}> excellent outcome..
[20:04] <Azmadeus> Oh My.....Damn........I hope that you have found the journey so far to have been worth the pain Lady Mist
[20:04] <Mongoose> Lady: how sad, someone would do that
[20:05] * dragn{Az} remembers....was hard for me to accept.....took about 3 years and I would only accept a little at a time....and still in the process of accepting.....<shrug>
[20:05] <LadyMist> very worth the pain.....
<raven{Az}> I thought my being submissive was a side effect, psychological problem, because of abuse..took me years to figure out it wasn't
[20:06] * ananda{R} does not have a history of abuse in her family, but in a search to find love, realizing I hd to love myself first, I discovered the real me
[20:06] <Bugs42`> from my side, I felt the abuser, simply because I enjoyed what we were doing...
<raven{Az}> that's an interesting point of view..One I have not heard many speak of..
[20:06] <Azmadeus> Ahhhhhh.....good for you ananda{R}
<raven{Az}> I can certainly see how having dominant tendencies can make one feel like an abuser..how did you resolve that Bugs?
[20:07] <LadyMist> but it is not abuse if you care that some one is enjoying themselves
<raven{Az}> BDSM vs. abuse is anther topic..will get to that one.. :)
[20:07] <Mongoose> Bugs: that is like play v real hurt?
[20:07] * Azmadeus smiles at Bugs......You did?.......I felt like that a little at the start....but the obvious excitement and satisfaction of my partner quickly extinquished those twinges....
[20:08] <Bugs42`> actually, we sat down and discussed it between ourselves, since we knew of no one else and decided if it felt good, go for it
[20:08] <Bugs42`> I had to know in my mind, they wanted to do this and I was not really hurting them
<raven{Az}> that's important..the consent part..as well as the mutual enjoyment
[20:09] <dawn3> I need to learn all i can, i am still confuse as to where i fit in this lifestyle
<raven{Az}> confusion is something we've all agreed that we've experienced..
<raven{Az}> feel free to toss out any questions you have dawn.. :)
[20:09] <Azmadeus> dawn.....this is a good way to get info....please feel free to ask questions of your own
* raven{Az} still gets confused sometimes..
<raven{Az}> What books would you reccomend to a new person to read?
[20:10] <Bugs42`> I was in a poly relationship at the time, one wanted even more than I was wiling to give at the time
[20:10] <LadyMist> screw the roses send me the thorns
[20:10] <dawn3> I was a full time slave for 2 years and then stayed out for a year, and recently try to be a dom and did not life it
[20:10] <LadyMist> the loving dominant...
[20:10] <Azmadeus> How did that resolve Bugs?
[20:10] <dawn3> like it
[20:10] <LadyMist> SM101
<raven{Az}> I liek Screw The Roses, Send Me THe Thorns by Molly Devon..
<raven{Az}> it is easy to read..enjoyable to read..and has lots of good infor
* raven{Az} blushes..those aren't public Master
<raven{Az}> What does this lifestyle give you that a vanilla one can't?
* raven{Az} tosses out a tough one
[20:11] <Bugs42`> a balance of separating the two and having different nights together
[20:12] <dawn3> i saw a different kind of loving in Barnes and Noble the other day was surprised
[20:12] <Mongoose> I liked Screw the Roses...
[20:12] <Azmadeus> Ahhhhh.....I could see how that could work....but didnt jeliousies tend to arise Bugs?
[20:13] <Bugs42`> no jealousies, if the had appeared at any time during a poly, it was agreed it ended
[20:13] <Bugs42`> actually, it gave them a lot to talk about and compare
[20:14] <Azmadeus> Really......I am amazed and salute you Bugs....and will be talking to you for hints real soon.....heheheheh
<raven{Az}> What does this lifestyle give you that a vanilla one can't?
[20:16] <Bugs42`> it gives me a sense with in myself that vanilla does not, it satisfies desires not normally satisfied
[20:16] <Bugs42`> I am very selfish and love being pleased
[20:16] <dawn3> my major problem is the one and only Master i had wanted me to give up totally control, i did not know how to do that, he last comment to me was i was to strong will to be a sub, and i don't want to be a dom
[20:16] * Mongoose is out of sync with the disscussion... must be lag
[20:17] * LadyMist crosses legs....listening
<raven{Az}> Ahhh..there's something..can a sub be strong willed?
[20:17] <Azmadeus> It gives me freedom........I always loved the kinky sex part of my life but felt something was missing.....then when this came in....well.....after I stopped fighting it I felt free to express myself finally
[20:17] <dawn3> How do you know if you belong in this lifestyle
[20:17] <LadyMist> a sub can be strong...I look for that
<raven{Az}> For me, it gives me a sense of completenes inside..a balance that I did not have before..I feel more fulfilled and whole..free to be all that I am..
[20:17] <Azmadeus> Yes a sub can be strong willed.........
<raven{Az}> I knew dawn because once I learned of it, and accepted my own feelings for what they were..the sense of inner peace and contentment was very strong..never before have I felt that way..
[20:17] <Bugs42`> yes a sub can be strong willed and in my mind needs to be....
* raven{Az} is very strong willed..
<raven{Az}> it's my opinion a sub should have a strong will..
<raven{Az}> this doesn't mean they aren't submissive
[20:18] <LadyMist> when they know what they are giving...the submission...becomes much fuller....deeper
<raven{Az}> exactly LadyMist
<raven{Az}> A sub has to be strong..look at what they do..
[20:18] <Azmadeus> Good point Lady Mist
[20:18] <LadyMist> exactly
[20:18] <dawn3> the only time i had a sense of inner peace was in my submissive relationship
[20:18] <Mongoose> rave: I say subs can be, look at intoit and bebe =)
<raven{Az}> some subs don't seem to be strong willed..is this a good thing or a bad thing?
[20:19] <LadyMist> it can be either
<raven{Az}> I agree LadyMist..
[20:20] <cyndy36> doesn't it depend on your definition of strong willed?
<raven{Az}> it depends on the sub..and the dom..
[20:20] <LadyMist> the subs that dont' have a strong will...but have self respect and dignity..it is not a problem
<raven{Az}> yes cyndy..
<raven{Az}> excatly LadyMist
[20:20] <dawn3> personnally i like it better when i can give up control, but it is so hard for me to do
[20:20] * Azmadeus frowns.......Would that not depend of what thier Masters./ Doms are looking for?........a person to match thier own desires?
[20:20] <Bugs42`> it depends on the sub and the situation
<raven{Az}> it is hard for everyone to do dawn..until you find the right person...
[20:20] <LadyMist> the weak willed that have no 'self' are so easy to be abused
<raven{Az}> for me..it was easy to give my submission to the right person
<raven{Az}> exactly LadyMist
[20:20] <Mongoose> rave: yes, but these subs may be "built up" by their master
<raven{Az}> How much responsibility do you think those of us who have been in BdSM for a while, have to those who are new?
[20:21] <dawn3> now that a question how does a control junky who longs to be a submissive let go of control
[20:21] <Bugs42`> there has to be base for the build up, but I agree
<raven{Az}> true Mongoose..but there must be something to build on..
<raven{Az}> Well said Bugs
<raven{Az}> you learn to allow yourself to enjoy giving..
<raven{Az}> if giving is something you really enjoy..deep inside..you have to break what society taught you and learn to let yousrelf enjoy it..
[20:22] <LadyMist> we have tremenduous responsibility
[20:22] <Azmadeus> I have never met anyone with nothing to build on....but I am new....in my own way
<raven{Az}> NOT easy
<raven{Az}> I have met a few with nothing to build on..and one of them, I gave a base to[20:22] <Mongoose> dawn: you'll have to meet the right person...
[20:22] <LadyMist> 'S' good for you raven
<raven{Az}> that helps too Mongoose.. :)
[20:23] <Azmadeus> We have a responisiblity to help them.....too many wanna-bes out there will grab and abuse the new people to our lifestyle......
[20:23] <Bugs42`> I agree, Az
<raven{Az}> OK..I agree we have a responsibility to teach..but what of those who truly do not wish to learn? Do we, as old timers, have to shoulder the responsibility of those people as well?
[20:24] <Mongoose> dawn: I was in a subbmissive type role in a relationship that lasted most my life... then after parting ways, found that I enjoy the other side of the coin much better
[20:24] <dawn3> meeting a master is hard in this lifestyle, most of the clubs around here have very few single male dom
<raven{Az}> I ask this because I've heard far too many people say it is OUR responsibility to prevent abuse of the lifestyle, and harm to those who refuse to learn..
<raven{Az}> true dawn..
[20:24] <Azmadeus> We need to at the very least tell them how to protect themselves and to go slowly till they know what it is they want so they dont rush into anything too deep too fast....
[20:24] <Bugs42`> no raven..... if they do not wish to learn, we do not force... everything has to be consentual
[20:24] <Mongoose> dawn: you dont' *have to be all dom or all subbie
<raven{Az}> agreed Bugs..
<raven{Az}> This brings in SSC..safe sane consensual..
[20:25] * LadyMist can't understand people who dont' want to learn
<raven{Az}> are these words worth anything? or are they, in your opinion, an attempt to Lighten BdSM so it will be more readily accepted by the mainstream society?
[20:25] <Azmadeus> Awwww....Bugs......But I LIKE breaking the bastards kneecaps........
<raven{Az}> LOLOL Master
[20:25] <dawn3> lol, i could play with alot of submissive men but it is work not pleasure
[20:26] * LadyMist LIKES SSC
[20:26] <cyndy36> those words mean everything
<raven{Az}> Well, devil's advocate here, is what we do really safe?
[20:26] <LadyMist> yes
<raven{Az}> in my opinion, no it isn't..every thing we do (pain play wise) has dangers..up to and including death of the sub
[20:26] <LadyMist> yes
[20:26] <LadyMist> it can be safe///it can be dangerous
<raven{Az}> nope..caning is not safe..nor is flogging, paddling, bondage..etc..all can go horribly wrong..
[20:26] <_mizu_> yes, if you are careful
[20:26] <cyndy36> depends on your limits I suppose
[20:27] <LadyMist> most death related house accidents.....dont' have anything to do with BDSM
<raven{Az}> true LadyMist..they don't..
[20:27] <Mongoose> dawn: try a book store or someplace at an activity you like... it's better to find a person than a playmate
[20:27] <dawn3> there was a guy i knew of that like choking and accidently choke himself to dealth
[20:27] <LadyMist> I would rather be flogged by some one I trust than slip in the tub
<raven{Az}> I feel SSC is great for those just learning..but eventually it does get left behind as one's needs and desires change..their limits broadening..
[20:27] <LadyMist> exactly
[20:27] <Mongoose> Ron: heheh
[20:27] <Azmadeus> SSC........no they mean very little.......They are a good place to start from I suppose....but in real life they do get left behind.....
[20:28] <LadyMist> not in my life
[20:28] <Bugs42`> I don't agree... I think SSC mst always be there
[20:28] <Mongoose> rave: it's like any other sport there are risks but not an intention to do harm
[20:28] <LadyMist> and I have practiced for almost 10 ears
<raven{Az}> I agree that consensual must always be there..without doubt..there must be consent..
[20:28] <LadyMist> always
<raven{Az}> sane..isn't that up to one's point of view as to what is sane and what isn't?
[20:28] <Bugs42`> because of moods and feelings, it can be unsafe and we must protect those we care about
<raven{Az}> I love a good flogging..to many people I'm insance..
[20:29] <LadyMist> yes..point of view...but a Dom/mes responsibility that no one is HARMES
[20:29] <Bugs42`> true, but get back to the discussion rave
[20:29] * _mizu_ giggles
<raven{Az}> to me, someone nailing their genitals to a board is insane.. :)
<raven{Az}> LOL Bugs
<raven{Az}> I agree there LadyMist
<raven{Az}> I say SSC is a guideline..not a set in stone rule..
[20:30] <Azmadeus> But dont we all expand our limits as we grow....to the point that what we might have at one time considered a limit is no longer one...and is this totally Sane?........or Safe?....
[20:30] <LadyMist> LOL
[20:30] <dawn3> as a mental health therpist i have seen many people lable insane what were just wonded souls and knock out with medication
<raven{Az}> if it's a set in stone rule..won't it then come to pass that someone else sets the rules for what is right and what isn't?
[20:30] * _mizu_ giggles
[20:30] <LadyMist> that is why limits always need renegotiation
[20:30] <cyndy36> I always tend to think of it as...As Safe as agreed upon, As Sane as we want to be, and Always consensual
[20:30] <Bugs42`> we all have different limits and that is why I really belive that the SSc is so important
<raven{Az}> Good point Az..I know my limits have changed..things a year ago that I would have NEVER done..I do now without hesitation and enjoy them..
<raven{Az}> EXCELLENT cyndy!!! I like that :))
[20:30] <Bugs42`> limits change with moods and timing
<raven{Az}> put it that way cyndy..and I can agree wholeheartedly to it..
[20:31] <LadyMist> good point cynn....beaming approval
[20:31] <Mongoose> rave: sane as in control and not clouding emotion (anger and such)
* raven{Az} writes that comment down for later reference..I really like that cyndy.. :)))
[20:31] <Bugs42`> agrred cyndy, I really like that
<raven{Az}> that's another thing..anger..should a dom strike in anger? why or why not?
[20:32] <Azmadeus> Yes they do Bugs......and that is my point.....in a building relationship they must be there....but as it grows......the changes in the people involved put them far outside what they considered at first to be Sane....
[20:32] <Bugs42`> NO!!!!!!!!! never in anger
<raven{Az}> can we truly expect that a dom will NEVER be angry? afterall they are human..
[20:32] <LadyMist> they...we...me walks away when angry...
[20:32] <dawn3> true raven, some do think they are God, lol
<raven{Az}> LOL true dawn..far too true..
<raven{Az}> good move LadyMist
[20:33] <Amax> They need to learn like a parent not to do anything in anger...
[20:33] <Azmadeus> No.,........The Dom can not allow themselves to be angry when punishing.....Must be in control.......isnt that the point?
<raven{Az}> I agree that a dom should never strike in anger..too easy to lose control and actually hurt the sub..misjudging their own strength
[20:33] <LadyMist> A Dom/me should never...ever...hit...in anger...it is for too dangerous...
[20:33] <Bugs42`> must be set up in the rules.... in advance
[20:33] <Mongoose> heheh, it's groupthink...
[20:33] <LadyMist> far in advance...'agreeing with Bugs'
<raven{Az}> so when a dom is angry..they should walk away frist..wait until they've cooled down..then punish for the transgression?
[20:34] <dawn3> the male sub i played with had really high limits, and often times he would try to make his dom made so he could get the degree of beating that he wanted
<raven{Az}> that happens often dawn..I've done it myself..it is real hard to learn to ask for what you want..
[20:34] <LadyMist> yes....always...cool...in control...
<raven{Az}> and often..it is a difference in the sub and dom..one wanting more pain than the other can give
<raven{Az}> Pause please..Bugs is getting coffee
* raven{Az} calls INTERMISSION
[20:36] * Azmadeus chuckles.....Or if they ABSOLUTELY must do something right that second......give a partial punishment that does NOT involve touching the sub .....
<raven{Az}> Ahhh..there's a topic..punishments other than pain.. :)
[20:36] <Bugs42`> Az, I agree the relationships change and limits change, but what is SSC must be discussed regularly
[20:36] <Mongoose> Ron: hey that's what I said... =)
[20:37] <LadyMist> I do not agree....even punishment with out touching can be shaded if you are angry
<raven{Az}> true Lady Mist
<raven{Az}> If you could get a newbie to do one thing, what would it be?
[20:38] <Bugs42`> On punishment... I have never run into anything that urgent, where I had to punish when angry
[20:38] <dawn3> i knew when i was a slave there were times i wanted to be punish just so i knew he was in control, but it was strange my pain tolerance was lower at that time then when we were just playing
[20:38] <LadyMist> nope//me too...never
[20:38] <LadyMist> 'S' good point
<raven{Az}> I understand that dawn..have felt that way myself...rather odd I thought
[20:38] <LadyMist> mine too
[20:38] <Bugs42`> a newbie... to watch and listen before play... but that is two things
<raven{Az}> that's good..
[20:38] <Azmadeus> True Bugs......But the last one....the C......some in this lifestyle reject that in its entirety....that the sub....once given over control....has no say....and I do not knwo that I will not be one of those some day....my limits additudes are changing ....
<raven{Az}> That brings in the difference between a sub and a slave..
[20:39] <Mongoose> dawn: understand what?
[20:39] <LadyMist> ohhh..hot topic
[20:39] <Azmadeus> No it isnt Bugs.....Watch and listen.......=....Learn......
<raven{Az}> yes..but not for tonight.. :)
[20:39] <Bugs42`> agreed Az, but that is in their relationship and in agreeing to it in advance, it is consentual
<raven{Az}> I say the first thing a newbie MUST have..is PATIENCE
<raven{Az}> many who just discovered BDSM get that *NEED*
<raven{Az}> that driving "Gotta have it" need..
<raven{Az}> and they will often set aside safety to satsify that need..
[20:40] <dawn3> that a question i also have, is the attitute that being a submissive means you have no wants or needs out side your dom or master
[20:40] <LadyMist> yes...then start thinking with their sex...not their brain
<raven{Az}> this leads to recklessness and bad mistakes..
[20:40] <LadyMist> right
<raven{Az}> Patience..to learn what it is they are getting in to..before they get into it
<raven{Az}> excatly LM :)
[20:40] <LadyMist> that sounds like a slave not a sub
[20:40] <Amax> Sounds like a teenager with their first experience with sex, raven
[20:41] * dragn{Az} gets that *need* thing....but then again....don't get it much and haven't in a long time....<soft sigh>
[20:41] <LadyMist> yes
<raven{Az}> exactly Amax..many do just taht..become a teenager..with no control..all hormones..
* raven{Az} did it..
[20:41] <LadyMist> 'hug'
[20:41] <Azmadeus> Point given over Bugs.....That should be true of us all
[20:41] * _mizu_ giggles
<raven{Az}> I was lucky though..
* raven{Az} HUGS dragn
[20:41] * Mongoose lags
<raven{Az}> BDSM, sub space..can all be rather addictive..
<raven{Az}> once you've experienced it..you want it more and more..
[20:42] <LadyMist> addictive.
<raven{Az}> a newbie..will often go with that need..and ignore safety
[20:42] <LadyMist> very addictive
* raven{Az} is addicted to sub space..
[20:42] <redbrat> yes, i agree
[20:42] <_mizu_> not realy raven, i find it more relaxing
<raven{Az}> that's why I'm addicted mizu..I crave the relaxation it brings..
<raven{Az}> I crave the sense of clarity it gives me..sort of a "fresh start"
[20:42] <dragn{Az}> that is why the Dom must take control and pay real close attention to safty...right?
[20:42] <LadyMist> I am too...but that dioesn't mean I am going to endanger my lofe for it
<raven{Az}> yes dragn!
<raven{Az}> exactly LM!
[20:43] <redbrat> i've found over a period of two years with two different Masters that maturity in him is most important
[20:43] <LadyMist> right!
<raven{Az}> but knowing this..takes time to get..hence I say patience is first thing Newbies need to know
<raven{Az}> that is true as well redbrat..
[20:43] <Azmadeus> Really?......I am fairly new....but never once have I accepted less than my absolute concentration of the safety of my lady........or have I.....?......did I ever slip raven?
[20:43] <LadyMist> glad everyone can read through the typos...'blowing kisses'
[20:43] <_mizu_> not in the way i do raven, but even i know when it's time to stop
<raven{Az}> not that I noticed Master..
[20:43] * Azmadeus huggles Bugs too
<raven{Az}> Did you know when you first discovered those physical sensations mizu?
<raven{Az}> when to stop I mean
[20:45] <_mizu_> yes, about the time i disjointed my thumb's and removed the cuff's (giggle)
<raven{Az}> Ahhh..that would do it mizu..giggle
[20:45] <Mongoose> LadyMist: well maybe it's just us young'ns
<raven{Az}> How does a dom learn to use the toys?
<raven{Az}> what are some ways a Dom can learn to use the toys?
[20:46] <redbrat> i taught him..lol
[20:46] <Azmadeus> Use them on your own skin first....
[20:46] <LadyMist> pillows...hot pillows...velvet ones
<raven{Az}> LOL that is one way redbrat..
[20:46] <LadyMist> hit
[20:46] <_mizu_> that and picking Marisha up like she was not even there
[20:46] <Bugs42`> exactlt Az, that is what I do
[20:46] <LadyMist> yep
* raven{Az} listens..
* raven{Az} smiles
[20:46] <redbrat> i was young..lol :)
[20:47] <Mongoose> LadyMist: np
<raven{Az}> Should a dom be willing to learn from the sub?
[20:47] <Azmadeus> Yep....that would be a clue mizu
[20:47] <redbrat> he isn't natural dom
[20:47] <LadyMist> np?
<raven{Az}> even a natural dom has to learn redbrat..
[20:48] <Azmadeus> Anyone wishing to call themselves a Dom should never turn down a chance to learn something new....and each person has new limits and new perceptions....
<raven{Az}> How does one know if they are a "natural" dom or sub?
[20:48] <redbrat> he's still learning from me! lol (husband)
[20:48] <Bugs42`> yes a Dom, should be willing to learn from any and all sources including and in may ways especially a sub
[20:48] <redbrat> that's so true raven
<raven{Az}> well said all.. :)
[20:48] <redbrat> i've "always" been sub
[20:48] <redbrat> can't remember "turning" that way
[20:49] <Azmadeus> ^5 Bugs....Especially the submissive
[20:49] <redbrat> was *it* before i knew the term
* raven{Az} pauses so Bugs can catch up
[20:49] <_mizu_> i have to be sub, would not have learned the control i needed as a Dom
[20:49] <LadyMist> loves switching
<raven{Az}> I wonder about that mizu..sicne a dom has to have more control than a sub..the dom has a heavier responsibility than the sub..the sub is supposed to relax and enjoy..the dom has to remain self controlled enough to continue the play safely..
<raven{Az}> even the mind stuff
[20:50] <_mizu_> to dangerous for me to be a Dom
[20:50] <LadyMist> IMHO.... natural = genetic...
[20:50] <redbrat> Master learned in Japan..while learning they practiced on him...
[20:50] <redbrat> he learned both ways
<raven{Az}> I have to say that there are those who are "genetically
<raven{Az}> patterned to be sub or dom..
<raven{Az}> and that for others..it's a learned behavior..
[20:50] * chensa enters quietly with a small smile
<raven{Az}> I think, that is a personal thing which varies person to person
[20:51] <Mongoose> raven: you shouldn't force a person adginst their nature imho
<raven{Az}> I agree Mongoose..
[20:51] <Bugs42`> I wonder about that about that, I don't like the term natural Dom...
<raven{Az}> why Bugs?
[20:52] <Azmadeus> no raven....I cant agree.....I dont believe there is any genetic patern for anything.....except male and female....
[20:52] * LadyMist sits back....not liking natural....
[20:52] <Bugs42`> you may have a controlling need or something like that, but unl;ess you are willing to learn and be safe about it
[20:52] <LadyMist> I do think our nature is genetic....like sexaulity
[20:52] <Bugs42`> you are not Dom, you are a danger
[20:52] <_mizu_> no, it is society, how we were raized that influences us
[20:52] <LadyMist> I agreee with that
<raven{Az}> What is interesting about this thing Master is that if you get people together who are blood related..but never met..often they are very much alike..
<raven{Az}> what caused that similarity?
[20:53] <LadyMist> influences..but does not shape who we are
<raven{Az}> yes mizu, it does influence us greatly..I can't say it doesn't
<raven{Az}> I agree that one who refuses to learn is a danger ..
[20:53] * chensa sits back and watches the room
<raven{Az}> basically..I was asking, how does one know which they are? sub or dom? or even, both?
[20:54] <Azmadeus> Exactly mizu!....it is our own experiences....even those in infanthood that influance us......some people think that it is those influances in the first three years that are the most telling
[20:54] <Bugs42`> that I can only answer for me, it is just a way that I am and feel comfortable
<raven{Az}> personally, I think it's both..nature and how one is raised and what they experience..
[20:54] <_mizu_> i needed to learn the control, not to control
<raven{Az}> true mizu..
<raven{Az}> just a way that you are..?
[20:55] <cheryl{B}> i have met some subs that knew from dreams when they were little, how do you figure that in?
[20:55] <cyndy36> but we can only be influenced if we are born with the ability to have that tendency..be it submissive or dominant
<raven{Az}> ummm..sounds rather "natural" to me..
[20:55] <redbrat> i grew up being the "adult" in the family from an early age, yet i'm very sub..
[20:55] <chensa> i know i dont have any domme in me... *grins*
<raven{Az}> agreed cyndy
<raven{Az}> good question cheryl..depends on how one views dreams...
[20:55] <LadyMist> but I love being sub...and my first memories....fantasies...are Domme
[20:55] <LadyMist> I agreee cyn
[20:55] <Azmadeus> there are chemical levels in the blood that are determined by genetics....but the overriding influance is our experianmnces
<raven{Az}> is it the emotional aspects of being sub that you love? or the physical sesations being sub provides?
[20:56] <LadyMist> I don't agree
[20:56] <_mizu_> no, needed to focus on something to control the rage, serving and caring for another showed me that i was not alone
<raven{Az}> guess that depends on the person ...
[20:56] <LadyMist> both..the physical and the emotional
[20:56] <_mizu_> that what i did effect's all around me
[20:56] * LadyMist sitting back.....
[20:57] <cyndy36> for me..mostly the emotional needs override the physical ones..but both are there
[20:57] * Azmadeus chuckles....mizu......I did it through a life altering experience....and a lot of prayer and meditation.....that and being scared out of my mind....
[20:57] <Bugs42`> miine are more emotional, bu yes the physical need to be Dom is indeed there
* raven{Az} thinks about her experiences regarding familial similarities after a 26 year absence..and shakes her head slowly..I still think genetics plays a part
[20:58] <_mizu_> so is this if it is done right Sir
<raven{Az}> for me..I need to be sub emotionally, psychologically and physically..
[20:58] <chensa> my sister doesnt have a submissive bone in her body.. i got the family share
<raven{Az}> I met my birth mother..after 26 years apart..the similarities between us were astounding to me..
<raven{Az}> and I mean personality wise..our likes, dislikes..were very closely matched..
<raven{Az}> but we're getting off topic here.. :)
[20:59] <Azmadeus> You may be right raven....we do not know everything the genes are doing to us.......LOL....except aging us....that part os obvious.......
<raven{Az}> true Master.. LOL
<raven{Az}> what are some ways to help a person resolve those feelings for themselves..figure it out and all that?
[20:59] <LadyMist> what was the topic...refreshing memory..
<raven{Az}> Learning The Lifestyle.. :)
[21:00] <LadyMist> thanks...'S"
[21:00] <LadyMist> a patient Dom/me....one who takes thing slowly...is the best way to learn
[21:00] <Azmadeus> Uhmmmmmmm raven........jump in with both feet?
<raven{Az}> I can't agree with that LM..
[21:01] <LadyMist> LOL how different!
<raven{Az}> LOLOL
[21:01] <LadyMist> so you want to jump in?
[21:01] * chensa shakes her head... patience is good
[21:01] <Bugs42`> learning the lifestyle.....I agree LadyMist... or for someone so inclined a poly relationship is great
[21:01] <_mizu_> that is how i learned, slowly, one thing at a time
[21:01] * LadyMist looking at chen....ok
<raven{Az}> patience is a neccesity..
<raven{Az}> but where do you get the information?
[21:02] <LadyMist> cyn?
[21:02] <Azmadeus> I did jump in Lady Mist.......somewhat reluctantly....and my brain was slow to catch up with what my heart already knew...but yes.....
[21:02] <cyndy36> what, LM??
[21:02] <Bugs42`> online now days is great... there are a lot of nice websites
<raven{Az}> actually Master..you're wrong
[21:02] <LadyMist> from a dom'me that gives you all the right books...the right web sights;... that is concerned with your learning
<raven{Az}> agreed Bugs..I think cyber presents a very safe way of learning..
[21:02] * chensa smiles at Lady Mist
<raven{Az}> But good dom/mes are hard to find..
<raven{Az}> many have to learn on their own..we can't expect people to depend on others for everything they learn..
[21:03] <LadyMist> would you like to jump in or take things slowly cyn?
[21:03] <LadyMist> agreed
[21:03] <Bugs42`> the safest I have found and then places to go talk to people
[21:03] <_mizu_> yes they are
[21:03] * _mizu_ giggles
<raven{Az}> Az, you didn't jump in both feet first..
[21:03] * LadyMist acquiring personal info......forgive me...'S'
[21:03] <cyndy36> oh, take things slowly
<raven{Az}> you inched your way in..slowly..very slowly..and added new things as you learned them and got used to them..
[21:04] <Azmadeus> I am raven?......From my POV my first scene was pretty intense.......I do admit it took me two years to come to terms with the emotions and the thoughts that came from it........so in a way I guess you could say I went slowly....but my heart knew the first night.......was my mind and upbringing that got in the way for a while...
[21:05] <cheryl{B}> perhaps watching a prospective Dom play,,whether they play fair
<raven{Az}> still..it took two years to get to the point of physical action ....if you had jumped in, you'd have played sooner
<raven{Az}> that's a good idea cheryl..
[21:05] <LadyMist> agreed.
[21:06] <Bugs42`> I don'y like the idae of watching a prospective dom.me, that is still learning from soemsone new
[21:06] <Mongoose> wow Ron in realtime...
<raven{Az}> I think she meant a prospective Dom watching one who has experience..
[21:06] <Azmadeus> Point given raven.....
[21:07] <Bugs42`> ok, I will agree with that
<raven{Az}> ok..so we have patience..web sites..books..
[21:07] <cheryl{B}> True, i meant a sub watching a dom
<raven{Az}> anything else that someone did to learn from others?
<raven{Az}> a sub watching a dom? cheryl how would that help the dom use the toys?
[21:08] <Bugs42`> did you mean an experienced dom, cherl?
<raven{Az}> or have I lost site of the question?
[21:08] <cheryl{B}> Bugs:yes, experienced Dom
<raven{Az}> what was the hardest thing you have had to learn so far in BDSM? do you think you've mastered it? or do you think you still have a ways to go?
[21:13] <Bugs42`> I still have a ways to go, still learning
[21:14] <Azmadeus> Still learning....hope never to stop......
[21:14] <Bugs42`> the hardest was understanding why I enjoyed it
<raven{Az}> For me, learning when to keep my mouth shut has been hardest..and I still have a LONG way to go..
[21:14] <_mizu_> have no idea
[21:14] <chensa> LOL
[21:14] <chensa> me too raven
<raven{Az}> Ahh yes..that is the hardest one I think Bugs..
<raven{Az}> I meant after that though.. :)
[21:14] <chensa> my mouth ... *trails off*
* raven{Az} rolls her eyes and mumbles..my mouth is just way too much sometimes..
[21:15] <LadyMist> appreciation
<raven{Az}> appreciation of what LM?
[21:15] <Azmadeus> the hardest thing...was accepting that what I was doing was right for me....and for the lady I was lucky enough to be with........
<raven{Az}> I wasn't clear on that..sorry
[21:15] <Bugs42`> limits are hardest, becuase what is said is not what is always meant.... some say more to impress. I try to stay safe
<raven{Az}> I understand..
<raven{Az}> we have all agreed that accepting oneself as a dom or sub (or switch) is the hardest..
[21:16] <LadyMist> I agree
<raven{Az}> I meant..after that..when you get into the daily nuts and bolts of the lifestyle..what was the hardest thing you learned..etc. ?
<raven{Az}> Good point Bugs..that happens far too often..and brings up honesty..one should be very honest with what they say..their experiences and tolerance levels..
[21:17] <Bugs42`> some say less to be safe and are unsatisfied, so learning my partner is hardest for me
[21:17] <_mizu_> how to take care of the dry cleaning (giggle)
<raven{Az}> yes love I know..
<raven{Az}> LOLOL mizu
<raven{Az}> learning one's partner is a hard thing to do..I agree there Bugs..
<raven{Az}> any tricks of the trade so to speak, that should be given to a newbie about learning their partner?
[21:18] <_mizu_> talk
[21:19] <Bugs42`> agreed lots of talk...
* raven{Az} nods..
<raven{Az}> I think observation is another tool many people do NOT use..specially subs..
<raven{Az}> watch your partner closely..see what they do..look for patterns in their behavior..
[21:20] <Bugs42`> yes
[21:20] <_mizu_> yes, but at times that can get you into trouble
<raven{Az}> true mizu..
<raven{Az}> but in some ways..it can help..
[21:21] * Mongoose lags
[21:21] <_mizu_> at times, other's it just drove Marisha nut's, especialy when i started out thinking her
<raven{Az}> Oh yes mizu..I've found many doms that hate that..
[21:21] <LadyMist> but seriously...observation....
<raven{Az}> I have to wonder why a dom would be upset by a sub who can think that quickly..
[21:22] <chensa> observation?
[21:22] <Mongoose> LadyMist: I know a fem dom that likes to be topped by certian guys, is that common?
[21:22] <LadyMist> is an excellent tool to find out what and when and how a sub 'needs'
<raven{Az}> yes.. LM :)
<raven{Az}> as well, it is a good tool for a sub to learn the intricacies of their dom/me
[21:22] <LadyMist> Mongoose I am a switch...have a very nice subbie side...or so I have been told...WEG
[21:23] <LadyMist> that too raven...it does go both ays...
[21:23] <LadyMist> ways even
[21:23] <LadyMist> don't know how commen it is......but don't want to get off topic...'smiling at raven'
<raven{Az}> just about everything goes both ways..doesn't it?
<raven{Az}> thanks LM.. :)
<raven{Az}> it is hard to stay on topic with something like BDSM..one thing leads into another so easily'
[21:24] <LadyMist> agreed
<raven{Az}> that's one thing, how does a switch come to accept that they are indeed both?
<raven{Az}> is it more difficult than accepting being just one or the other?
[21:25] <LadyMist> very more differnet for me
[21:26] <LadyMist> difficult...too
[21:26] <Mongoose> raven: I would say it depends on who you are with
<raven{Az}> How did you resolve it LM?
<raven{Az}> true..
[21:27] <LadyMist> As I said before my first memories are of being Domme....and the pony thing....but then I say the journey of O...really early in life...
[21:27] <Mongoose> raven: I only felt submissive to one person my whole life, but I was with her for 12 out of my 22 years =/
[21:27] <LadyMist> and I do love being helpless...almost the nonconsesual......'shudder and shiver'
[21:27] <chensa> ive always been submissive,,, just didnt have a word for it when i was younger
<raven{Az}> I feel that way chensa..
<raven{Az}> was a major breakthrough to learn the terms that fit the feelings...
[21:28] <LadyMist> and it was easy for me to 'take over' my sexuality after being abused....
[21:28] <chensa> *giggles* and now i know why i cant horseback ride worth anything, the HORSE knows im not in control... that i cant domme it
<raven{Az}> yes..I can understand that LM
[21:28] <Azmadeus> I can understand that Lady Mist
[21:29] <LadyMist> then it was preety easy....I feel in with a educated crowd....got trained....then subbed
[21:29] <LadyMist> got trained as a domme...then subbed....
<raven{Az}> Should a newbie get involved with r/l groups in their area if there is one?
[21:29] <Bugs42`> yes, I think they should
[21:29] <LadyMist> depends,,,,
[21:30] <cyndy36> depends on the group
[21:30] <LadyMist> I have seen groups that were nationally recognized that allowed subs to play intoxicated
[21:30] <Azmadeus> Yes.....cautiously........carefully.......never a one on one at first.......if possible for that person
[21:30] <Mongoose> raven: I don't feel the need to...
[21:30] <Bugs42`> still, I like the idea of groups.. in the long run, I think safer
<raven{Az}> neither do I mongoose..I've never been to a r/l group
<raven{Az}> Well LM, that brings in another question..this is a personal one of mine..
[21:31] <LadyMist> but I have seen broken bones in public that were countenanced by the dungeon Master
[21:31] <LadyMist> OK..shoot
<raven{Az}> what about someone who has to take medication that can be considered "intoxicating" ..does that prevent all play for that person? or should the dom just be more cautious and attentive to the sub?
[21:32] <Bugs42`> much more cautious and attentive
[21:32] <LadyMist> it depends ont he person...the level of submission...how long the Dom/me has known the sub.......lots of things...
[21:32] <Bugs42`> but still play
<raven{Az}> ok..
<raven{Az}> the person..me
<raven{Az}> level of submission..varies depending on Dom from very sub ..to slave under the right conditions..
[21:33] <LadyMist> IMHO....if the drug...(no matter over the counter or not...) if it alters 'you' I won't play...
[21:33] <Bugs42`> agreed LadyMist, it does depend on a lot, but if they need it, do not with hold it
[21:33] <Mongoose> raven: I worry about you and your back...
[21:33] <LadyMist> But their need can wait til they are off meds...
<raven{Az}> can it if the meds are permanent like mine are LM?
[21:34] * panda^ agrees that it should not be withheld
[21:34] <LadyMist> assuming they will and can bee of
<raven{Az}> does one who has a permanent disability and daily pain level have to give up what makes them whole?
[21:34] <Mongoose> raven: do you still play with that injury?
[21:34] <LadyMist> I don't know your situation raven....I just hope that Your Dom knows you...
<raven{Az}> I do too Mongoose..which is why I am extremely careful of what I do..how it is done..and have learned my body very well..
<raven{Az}> yes Mongoose..I do
<raven{Az}> he does..
[21:35] <LadyMist> and feels comfortable in giving you what you need with out harming you
[21:35] <Mongoose> raven: that would make you a different person if you had to give it up
[21:35] <panda^> in raven's case....IMHO....her meds allow her to enjoy what she needs
[21:35] <LadyMist> Good...'bright smile'
<raven{Az}> the only way that I know of to further injure what is wrong with me is to hit it directly...or to drop me on my hip..(left side)
<raven{Az}> I would be...<sigh> not me, that's for sure Mongoose..
[21:35] <LadyMist> wish I knew raven better.....I was NOT attempting to discuss her personall situation
<raven{Az}> I understand LM.. :)
[21:36] <LadyMist> 'S'
<raven{Az}> am not picking at you or anything..just tossing out something that does affect some people..
[21:36] * panda^ knows raven well enough to know that she is very carefly
<raven{Az}> I have a degenerated disk at L4-5..permanent nerve damage to sciatic nerve root at L4-5..and what is now a broken fusion on the left side of the sacroiliac joint..
<raven{Az}> the nerve damamge..is permanent..and will keep me on pain meds for the rest of my life..
[21:37] <LadyMist> I have sciatic nerve problems........yikes..nothing like your though
<raven{Az}> Provided no one hits my lower back..from L3 to S-1..I am fine..
<raven{Az}> as well..there is a nice big scar on the joint..which also can not be hit..
<raven{Az}> but sometimes..I am on meds (for muscle spasms)..that do make me drowsy..should I have to give up play?
[21:38] * LadyMist cringing for you
[21:38] <Mongoose> raven: owie
[21:38] <LadyMist> NOPE
[21:38] <Bugs42`> In my opinion raven... trust not just on your part,but on the Doms part, has to be almost extreme
<raven{Az}> don't LM..I'm ok.. will be even better soon..when they fix the broken fusion..
<raven{Az}> agreed Bugs..and there are very FeW people I trust enough to play with at this point..
[21:38] <Mongoose> raven: no, it's too much a part of you
<raven{Az}> thanks LM.. :)
[21:38] <LadyMist> I hop eand pray....
<raven{Az}> thanks LM..prayers are welcome.. :)
[21:39] * Azmadeus chuckles and uses a magic marker to outline the area on ravens back.......the no hit zone.....heheheh
<raven{Az}> So for those who are disabled and learning the lifestyle..how would one's suggestions change to suit their situation?
<raven{Az}> LOL Az
[21:39] * chensa giggles
[21:39] <LadyMist> hey...Master did that to me once...LOL
[21:39] <Mongoose> Ron: hehe
<raven{Az}> yes Sir.. :) we're still discussing..going to wind it up soon though..but feel free to join in if you want.. :)
[21:39] <WhipMstr> I must be lagged
[21:40] <Mongoose> raven: do no harm is #1, pleasure is #2
<raven{Az}> For those who are disabled..I add things such as..learn anatomy very well..specifically your own body as well as your sub's..
[21:40] * panda^ wonders what the original question was??
<raven{Az}> know your limits..stick to them is even more important under those conditions..
[21:40] * chensa has no idea
[21:40] <Azmadeus> raven.....we have gone from Learning the lifestyle to Playing with disablities...........LOL
<raven{Az}> just different questions on learning the lifestyle panda.. :)
[21:40] <LadyMist> agrees with raven
<raven{Az}> LOLOL yeah..I'm trying to bring it back on track..by asking that question..
[21:40] <panda^> ahhh ok
[21:41] <WhipMstr> aactually I have used magic marker to show on a sub where a person could hit it helped him with his swing with his subbie
<raven{Az}> Now that's an idea I have not heard before..
<raven{Az}> I like that WM.. :)
[21:42] <Azmadeus> WM.........Keep your shoulders leveland follow thru.....or is that a golf drive..........heheheheh
[21:42] <Bugs42`> golf and tennis
<raven{Az}> WM, what do you find most important to tell someone who is new?
[21:43] <WhipMstr> and on some subbies it is hard to see where the tailbone is when they are bent over something
<raven{Az}> not on me..mine sticks way way up.. LOL
<raven{Az}> but yes..in general that is true..
[21:43] <LadyMist> so have then laying down...
[21:43] <WhipMstr> PLay with friends you trust and never play alone with someone you do not know
[21:44] <LadyMist> them lieing.
[21:44] * dragn{Az} giggles at Az
[21:44] <LadyMist> yikes,,,it si to late to spelll
<raven{Az}> agreed WM.. :)
Ended there.
<raven{Az}> First off: If I dissappear..it may be due to a power loss..just keep going.. :)
<raven{Az}> I figured we would start these discussions with something that is very important to those in the lifestyle..learning it..
<raven{Az}> with the advent of IRC..there is a major influx of newbies (as they are called) to BDSM...and unfortunately, there is a deficit of good information...
[19:51] <Azmadeus> True love there are a lot of newbies....Me for one....
<raven{Az}> Well, I think the first thing people need to understand is that their emotions are not uncommon..that others have felt the same way..
<raven{Az}> tonight's discussion will be a question/answer format..which hopefully will generate some discussion..
<raven{Az}> How did you feel when you first figured out your feelings were those of a Dom or a sub?
[19:54] <Azmadeus> How did I feel......Excited....angry....
[19:54] * Azmadeus waits for other answers.....*Psst.....dont make me face the teacher alone!.....Come on people
[19:54] * LadyMist leaves the gift wrapping tabelt o find a chair...smiling
[19:54] <Bugs42`> me, I felt afraid of my feelings.... I enjoyed the feelings but felt they were strange
<raven{Az}> I was confused..scared out of my mind..and thought I was sick somehow..was very hard to define the feelings..
[19:55] <LadyMist> I felt like I was a freak...of course that was third grade
<raven{Az}> How did you resolve those feelings?
[19:55] <Azmadeus> Third grade....oh my....
[19:55] * ananda{R} was relieved, because she finally stopped struggling
[19:56] <Mongoose> Ron: hello, I must be lagging
[19:56] <LadyMist> yes had my first pony experience in thrd grade...spoiled me rotten
<raven{Az}> WOW..that was young LadyMist..how did you learn of BDSM so young?
[19:57] <LadyMist> I didn't know.....just knew I loved my best friend and she loved pretending she was a horse...:)
[19:57] <Mongoose> well I'm not active in BDSM, so I guess I don't get to answer
<raven{Az}> Ahhh..now that's one way to figure it out.. :)
[19:57] <LadyMist> and later I discovered that I felt sexually about her..and the games we played
<raven{Az}> Mongoose, you've told me that you have dominant tendencies..how you are learning of those, and accepting them is relevant here..
<raven{Az}> excellent.. :)
<raven{Az}> I, like many others, resolved those feelings with the internet..
[19:59] <Mongoose> LadyMist: most people look all their lives for a map of their soul... grade school... hhmmm
[19:59] <Mongoose> rave: well I've also told you I *can switch ;)
<raven{Az}> yes you have..
<raven{Az}> that is, in my mind, more confusing..to be a switch..
[19:59] <LadyMist> didn't need to look....I have always been 'here' and I can switch too...'WEG"
<raven{Az}> I've switched..just don't like it
[20:00] * ananda{R} fell into the net bdsm accidentally
[20:00] <Mongoose> rave: LadyMist reminded me, that when I was very young an older girl used to bite my back... hhmmm... repressision
<raven{Az}> could be Mongoose..
[20:00] <LadyMist> BTW...I am a plyamorous bisexual switch....if that won't inspire discussion nothing will''G'
<raven{Az}> I remember thinking of things like spanking, bondage and whips in my pre-teens..
<raven{Az}> thought I was nuts..never told anyone..but never could keep the "kink" out of my sex life
<raven{Az}> well LadyMist..I am bi and poly..just not a switch..though it seems I can switch with a particular person
<raven{Az}> So..How did you resolve the feelings and gain acceptance of your BDSM self?
[20:01] * Mongoose thinks he just got dropped on the head as a child
<raven{Az}> Does anyone remember what process they went through before they gained acceptance of themselves?
[20:02] <LadyMist> abuse
<raven{Az}> abuse LadyMist?
[20:03] <LadyMist> lots of abuse
<raven{Az}> can I ask how that helped you gain acceptance?
[20:03] <Azmadeus> Of what type Lady Mist.....or is that too personal
[20:03] <LadyMist> my ex.....made me reveal my deepest fantasies,,,,then used them against me
<raven{Az}> ouch.. :(
[20:03] <LadyMist> nope not too personal
[20:03] <LadyMist> after which I decided that I was not wrong or preverted
<raven{Az}> I can see how that would help you to gain acceptance of yourself..
[20:04] <LadyMist> that I deserved to have my needs met...
<raven{Az}> excellent outcome..
[20:04] <Azmadeus> Oh My.....Damn........I hope that you have found the journey so far to have been worth the pain Lady Mist
[20:04] <Mongoose> Lady: how sad, someone would do that
[20:05] * dragn{Az} remembers....was hard for me to accept.....took about 3 years and I would only accept a little at a time....and still in the process of accepting.....<shrug>
[20:05] <LadyMist> very worth the pain.....
<raven{Az}> I thought my being submissive was a side effect, psychological problem, because of abuse..took me years to figure out it wasn't
[20:06] * ananda{R} does not have a history of abuse in her family, but in a search to find love, realizing I hd to love myself first, I discovered the real me
[20:06] <Bugs42`> from my side, I felt the abuser, simply because I enjoyed what we were doing...
<raven{Az}> that's an interesting point of view..One I have not heard many speak of..
[20:06] <Azmadeus> Ahhhhhh.....good for you ananda{R}
<raven{Az}> I can certainly see how having dominant tendencies can make one feel like an abuser..how did you resolve that Bugs?
[20:07] <LadyMist> but it is not abuse if you care that some one is enjoying themselves
<raven{Az}> BDSM vs. abuse is anther topic..will get to that one.. :)
[20:07] <Mongoose> Bugs: that is like play v real hurt?
[20:07] * Azmadeus smiles at Bugs......You did?.......I felt like that a little at the start....but the obvious excitement and satisfaction of my partner quickly extinquished those twinges....
[20:08] <Bugs42`> actually, we sat down and discussed it between ourselves, since we knew of no one else and decided if it felt good, go for it
[20:08] <Bugs42`> I had to know in my mind, they wanted to do this and I was not really hurting them
<raven{Az}> that's important..the consent part..as well as the mutual enjoyment
[20:09] <dawn3> I need to learn all i can, i am still confuse as to where i fit in this lifestyle
<raven{Az}> confusion is something we've all agreed that we've experienced..
<raven{Az}> feel free to toss out any questions you have dawn.. :)
[20:09] <Azmadeus> dawn.....this is a good way to get info....please feel free to ask questions of your own
* raven{Az} still gets confused sometimes..
<raven{Az}> What books would you reccomend to a new person to read?
[20:10] <Bugs42`> I was in a poly relationship at the time, one wanted even more than I was wiling to give at the time
[20:10] <LadyMist> screw the roses send me the thorns
[20:10] <dawn3> I was a full time slave for 2 years and then stayed out for a year, and recently try to be a dom and did not life it
[20:10] <LadyMist> the loving dominant...
[20:10] <Azmadeus> How did that resolve Bugs?
[20:10] <dawn3> like it
[20:10] <LadyMist> SM101
<raven{Az}> I liek Screw The Roses, Send Me THe Thorns by Molly Devon..
<raven{Az}> it is easy to read..enjoyable to read..and has lots of good infor
* raven{Az} blushes..those aren't public Master
<raven{Az}> What does this lifestyle give you that a vanilla one can't?
* raven{Az} tosses out a tough one
[20:11] <Bugs42`> a balance of separating the two and having different nights together
[20:12] <dawn3> i saw a different kind of loving in Barnes and Noble the other day was surprised
[20:12] <Mongoose> I liked Screw the Roses...
[20:12] <Azmadeus> Ahhhhh.....I could see how that could work....but didnt jeliousies tend to arise Bugs?
[20:13] <Bugs42`> no jealousies, if the had appeared at any time during a poly, it was agreed it ended
[20:13] <Bugs42`> actually, it gave them a lot to talk about and compare
[20:14] <Azmadeus> Really......I am amazed and salute you Bugs....and will be talking to you for hints real soon.....heheheheh
<raven{Az}> What does this lifestyle give you that a vanilla one can't?
[20:16] <Bugs42`> it gives me a sense with in myself that vanilla does not, it satisfies desires not normally satisfied
[20:16] <Bugs42`> I am very selfish and love being pleased
[20:16] <dawn3> my major problem is the one and only Master i had wanted me to give up totally control, i did not know how to do that, he last comment to me was i was to strong will to be a sub, and i don't want to be a dom
[20:16] * Mongoose is out of sync with the disscussion... must be lag
[20:17] * LadyMist crosses legs....listening
<raven{Az}> Ahhh..there's something..can a sub be strong willed?
[20:17] <Azmadeus> It gives me freedom........I always loved the kinky sex part of my life but felt something was missing.....then when this came in....well.....after I stopped fighting it I felt free to express myself finally
[20:17] <dawn3> How do you know if you belong in this lifestyle
[20:17] <LadyMist> a sub can be strong...I look for that
<raven{Az}> For me, it gives me a sense of completenes inside..a balance that I did not have before..I feel more fulfilled and whole..free to be all that I am..
[20:17] <Azmadeus> Yes a sub can be strong willed.........
<raven{Az}> I knew dawn because once I learned of it, and accepted my own feelings for what they were..the sense of inner peace and contentment was very strong..never before have I felt that way..
[20:17] <Bugs42`> yes a sub can be strong willed and in my mind needs to be....
* raven{Az} is very strong willed..
<raven{Az}> it's my opinion a sub should have a strong will..
<raven{Az}> this doesn't mean they aren't submissive
[20:18] <LadyMist> when they know what they are giving...the submission...becomes much fuller....deeper
<raven{Az}> exactly LadyMist
<raven{Az}> A sub has to be strong..look at what they do..
[20:18] <Azmadeus> Good point Lady Mist
[20:18] <LadyMist> exactly
[20:18] <dawn3> the only time i had a sense of inner peace was in my submissive relationship
[20:18] <Mongoose> rave: I say subs can be, look at intoit and bebe =)
<raven{Az}> some subs don't seem to be strong willed..is this a good thing or a bad thing?
[20:19] <LadyMist> it can be either
<raven{Az}> I agree LadyMist..
[20:20] <cyndy36> doesn't it depend on your definition of strong willed?
<raven{Az}> it depends on the sub..and the dom..
[20:20] <LadyMist> the subs that dont' have a strong will...but have self respect and dignity..it is not a problem
<raven{Az}> yes cyndy..
<raven{Az}> excatly LadyMist
[20:20] <dawn3> personnally i like it better when i can give up control, but it is so hard for me to do
[20:20] * Azmadeus frowns.......Would that not depend of what thier Masters./ Doms are looking for?........a person to match thier own desires?
[20:20] <Bugs42`> it depends on the sub and the situation
<raven{Az}> it is hard for everyone to do dawn..until you find the right person...
[20:20] <LadyMist> the weak willed that have no 'self' are so easy to be abused
<raven{Az}> for me..it was easy to give my submission to the right person
<raven{Az}> exactly LadyMist
[20:20] <Mongoose> rave: yes, but these subs may be "built up" by their master
<raven{Az}> How much responsibility do you think those of us who have been in BdSM for a while, have to those who are new?
[20:21] <dawn3> now that a question how does a control junky who longs to be a submissive let go of control
[20:21] <Bugs42`> there has to be base for the build up, but I agree
<raven{Az}> true Mongoose..but there must be something to build on..
<raven{Az}> Well said Bugs
<raven{Az}> you learn to allow yourself to enjoy giving..
<raven{Az}> if giving is something you really enjoy..deep inside..you have to break what society taught you and learn to let yousrelf enjoy it..
[20:22] <LadyMist> we have tremenduous responsibility
[20:22] <Azmadeus> I have never met anyone with nothing to build on....but I am new....in my own way
<raven{Az}> NOT easy
<raven{Az}> I have met a few with nothing to build on..and one of them, I gave a base to[20:22] <Mongoose> dawn: you'll have to meet the right person...
[20:22] <LadyMist> 'S' good for you raven
<raven{Az}> that helps too Mongoose.. :)
[20:23] <Azmadeus> We have a responisiblity to help them.....too many wanna-bes out there will grab and abuse the new people to our lifestyle......
[20:23] <Bugs42`> I agree, Az
<raven{Az}> OK..I agree we have a responsibility to teach..but what of those who truly do not wish to learn? Do we, as old timers, have to shoulder the responsibility of those people as well?
[20:24] <Mongoose> dawn: I was in a subbmissive type role in a relationship that lasted most my life... then after parting ways, found that I enjoy the other side of the coin much better
[20:24] <dawn3> meeting a master is hard in this lifestyle, most of the clubs around here have very few single male dom
<raven{Az}> I ask this because I've heard far too many people say it is OUR responsibility to prevent abuse of the lifestyle, and harm to those who refuse to learn..
<raven{Az}> true dawn..
[20:24] <Azmadeus> We need to at the very least tell them how to protect themselves and to go slowly till they know what it is they want so they dont rush into anything too deep too fast....
[20:24] <Bugs42`> no raven..... if they do not wish to learn, we do not force... everything has to be consentual
[20:24] <Mongoose> dawn: you dont' *have to be all dom or all subbie
<raven{Az}> agreed Bugs..
<raven{Az}> This brings in SSC..safe sane consensual..
[20:25] * LadyMist can't understand people who dont' want to learn
<raven{Az}> are these words worth anything? or are they, in your opinion, an attempt to Lighten BdSM so it will be more readily accepted by the mainstream society?
[20:25] <Azmadeus> Awwww....Bugs......But I LIKE breaking the bastards kneecaps........
<raven{Az}> LOLOL Master
[20:25] <dawn3> lol, i could play with alot of submissive men but it is work not pleasure
[20:26] * LadyMist LIKES SSC
[20:26] <cyndy36> those words mean everything
<raven{Az}> Well, devil's advocate here, is what we do really safe?
[20:26] <LadyMist> yes
<raven{Az}> in my opinion, no it isn't..every thing we do (pain play wise) has dangers..up to and including death of the sub
[20:26] <LadyMist> yes
[20:26] <LadyMist> it can be safe///it can be dangerous
<raven{Az}> nope..caning is not safe..nor is flogging, paddling, bondage..etc..all can go horribly wrong..
[20:26] <_mizu_> yes, if you are careful
[20:26] <cyndy36> depends on your limits I suppose
[20:27] <LadyMist> most death related house accidents.....dont' have anything to do with BDSM
<raven{Az}> true LadyMist..they don't..
[20:27] <Mongoose> dawn: try a book store or someplace at an activity you like... it's better to find a person than a playmate
[20:27] <dawn3> there was a guy i knew of that like choking and accidently choke himself to dealth
[20:27] <LadyMist> I would rather be flogged by some one I trust than slip in the tub
<raven{Az}> I feel SSC is great for those just learning..but eventually it does get left behind as one's needs and desires change..their limits broadening..
[20:27] <LadyMist> exactly
[20:27] <Mongoose> Ron: heheh
[20:27] <Azmadeus> SSC........no they mean very little.......They are a good place to start from I suppose....but in real life they do get left behind.....
[20:28] <LadyMist> not in my life
[20:28] <Bugs42`> I don't agree... I think SSC mst always be there
[20:28] <Mongoose> rave: it's like any other sport there are risks but not an intention to do harm
[20:28] <LadyMist> and I have practiced for almost 10 ears
<raven{Az}> I agree that consensual must always be there..without doubt..there must be consent..
[20:28] <LadyMist> always
<raven{Az}> sane..isn't that up to one's point of view as to what is sane and what isn't?
[20:28] <Bugs42`> because of moods and feelings, it can be unsafe and we must protect those we care about
<raven{Az}> I love a good flogging..to many people I'm insance..
[20:29] <LadyMist> yes..point of view...but a Dom/mes responsibility that no one is HARMES
[20:29] <Bugs42`> true, but get back to the discussion rave
[20:29] * _mizu_ giggles
<raven{Az}> to me, someone nailing their genitals to a board is insane.. :)
<raven{Az}> LOL Bugs
<raven{Az}> I agree there LadyMist
<raven{Az}> I say SSC is a guideline..not a set in stone rule..
[20:30] <Azmadeus> But dont we all expand our limits as we grow....to the point that what we might have at one time considered a limit is no longer one...and is this totally Sane?........or Safe?....
[20:30] <LadyMist> LOL
[20:30] <dawn3> as a mental health therpist i have seen many people lable insane what were just wonded souls and knock out with medication
<raven{Az}> if it's a set in stone rule..won't it then come to pass that someone else sets the rules for what is right and what isn't?
[20:30] * _mizu_ giggles
[20:30] <LadyMist> that is why limits always need renegotiation
[20:30] <cyndy36> I always tend to think of it as...As Safe as agreed upon, As Sane as we want to be, and Always consensual
[20:30] <Bugs42`> we all have different limits and that is why I really belive that the SSc is so important
<raven{Az}> Good point Az..I know my limits have changed..things a year ago that I would have NEVER done..I do now without hesitation and enjoy them..
<raven{Az}> EXCELLENT cyndy!!! I like that :))
[20:30] <Bugs42`> limits change with moods and timing
<raven{Az}> put it that way cyndy..and I can agree wholeheartedly to it..
[20:31] <LadyMist> good point cynn....beaming approval
[20:31] <Mongoose> rave: sane as in control and not clouding emotion (anger and such)
* raven{Az} writes that comment down for later reference..I really like that cyndy.. :)))
[20:31] <Bugs42`> agrred cyndy, I really like that
<raven{Az}> that's another thing..anger..should a dom strike in anger? why or why not?
[20:32] <Azmadeus> Yes they do Bugs......and that is my point.....in a building relationship they must be there....but as it grows......the changes in the people involved put them far outside what they considered at first to be Sane....
[20:32] <Bugs42`> NO!!!!!!!!! never in anger
<raven{Az}> can we truly expect that a dom will NEVER be angry? afterall they are human..
[20:32] <LadyMist> they...we...me walks away when angry...
[20:32] <dawn3> true raven, some do think they are God, lol
<raven{Az}> LOL true dawn..far too true..
<raven{Az}> good move LadyMist
[20:33] <Amax> They need to learn like a parent not to do anything in anger...
[20:33] <Azmadeus> No.,........The Dom can not allow themselves to be angry when punishing.....Must be in control.......isnt that the point?
<raven{Az}> I agree that a dom should never strike in anger..too easy to lose control and actually hurt the sub..misjudging their own strength
[20:33] <LadyMist> A Dom/me should never...ever...hit...in anger...it is for too dangerous...
[20:33] <Bugs42`> must be set up in the rules.... in advance
[20:33] <Mongoose> heheh, it's groupthink...
[20:33] <LadyMist> far in advance...'agreeing with Bugs'
<raven{Az}> so when a dom is angry..they should walk away frist..wait until they've cooled down..then punish for the transgression?
[20:34] <dawn3> the male sub i played with had really high limits, and often times he would try to make his dom made so he could get the degree of beating that he wanted
<raven{Az}> that happens often dawn..I've done it myself..it is real hard to learn to ask for what you want..
[20:34] <LadyMist> yes....always...cool...in control...
<raven{Az}> and often..it is a difference in the sub and dom..one wanting more pain than the other can give
<raven{Az}> Pause please..Bugs is getting coffee
* raven{Az} calls INTERMISSION
[20:36] * Azmadeus chuckles.....Or if they ABSOLUTELY must do something right that second......give a partial punishment that does NOT involve touching the sub .....
<raven{Az}> Ahhh..there's a topic..punishments other than pain.. :)
[20:36] <Bugs42`> Az, I agree the relationships change and limits change, but what is SSC must be discussed regularly
[20:36] <Mongoose> Ron: hey that's what I said... =)
[20:37] <LadyMist> I do not agree....even punishment with out touching can be shaded if you are angry
<raven{Az}> true Lady Mist
<raven{Az}> If you could get a newbie to do one thing, what would it be?
[20:38] <Bugs42`> On punishment... I have never run into anything that urgent, where I had to punish when angry
[20:38] <dawn3> i knew when i was a slave there were times i wanted to be punish just so i knew he was in control, but it was strange my pain tolerance was lower at that time then when we were just playing
[20:38] <LadyMist> nope//me too...never
[20:38] <LadyMist> 'S' good point
<raven{Az}> I understand that dawn..have felt that way myself...rather odd I thought
[20:38] <LadyMist> mine too
[20:38] <Bugs42`> a newbie... to watch and listen before play... but that is two things
<raven{Az}> that's good..
[20:38] <Azmadeus> True Bugs......But the last one....the C......some in this lifestyle reject that in its entirety....that the sub....once given over control....has no say....and I do not knwo that I will not be one of those some day....my limits additudes are changing ....
<raven{Az}> That brings in the difference between a sub and a slave..
[20:39] <Mongoose> dawn: understand what?
[20:39] <LadyMist> ohhh..hot topic
[20:39] <Azmadeus> No it isnt Bugs.....Watch and listen.......=....Learn......
<raven{Az}> yes..but not for tonight.. :)
[20:39] <Bugs42`> agreed Az, but that is in their relationship and in agreeing to it in advance, it is consentual
<raven{Az}> I say the first thing a newbie MUST have..is PATIENCE
<raven{Az}> many who just discovered BDSM get that *NEED*
<raven{Az}> that driving "Gotta have it" need..
<raven{Az}> and they will often set aside safety to satsify that need..
[20:40] <dawn3> that a question i also have, is the attitute that being a submissive means you have no wants or needs out side your dom or master
[20:40] <LadyMist> yes...then start thinking with their sex...not their brain
<raven{Az}> this leads to recklessness and bad mistakes..
[20:40] <LadyMist> right
<raven{Az}> Patience..to learn what it is they are getting in to..before they get into it
<raven{Az}> excatly LM :)
[20:40] <LadyMist> that sounds like a slave not a sub
[20:40] <Amax> Sounds like a teenager with their first experience with sex, raven
[20:41] * dragn{Az} gets that *need* thing....but then again....don't get it much and haven't in a long time....<soft sigh>
[20:41] <LadyMist> yes
<raven{Az}> exactly Amax..many do just taht..become a teenager..with no control..all hormones..
* raven{Az} did it..
[20:41] <LadyMist> 'hug'
[20:41] <Azmadeus> Point given over Bugs.....That should be true of us all
[20:41] * _mizu_ giggles
<raven{Az}> I was lucky though..
* raven{Az} HUGS dragn
[20:41] * Mongoose lags
<raven{Az}> BDSM, sub space..can all be rather addictive..
<raven{Az}> once you've experienced it..you want it more and more..
[20:42] <LadyMist> addictive.
<raven{Az}> a newbie..will often go with that need..and ignore safety
[20:42] <LadyMist> very addictive
* raven{Az} is addicted to sub space..
[20:42] <redbrat> yes, i agree
[20:42] <_mizu_> not realy raven, i find it more relaxing
<raven{Az}> that's why I'm addicted mizu..I crave the relaxation it brings..
<raven{Az}> I crave the sense of clarity it gives me..sort of a "fresh start"
[20:42] <dragn{Az}> that is why the Dom must take control and pay real close attention to safty...right?
[20:42] <LadyMist> I am too...but that dioesn't mean I am going to endanger my lofe for it
<raven{Az}> yes dragn!
<raven{Az}> exactly LM!
[20:43] <redbrat> i've found over a period of two years with two different Masters that maturity in him is most important
[20:43] <LadyMist> right!
<raven{Az}> but knowing this..takes time to get..hence I say patience is first thing Newbies need to know
<raven{Az}> that is true as well redbrat..
[20:43] <Azmadeus> Really?......I am fairly new....but never once have I accepted less than my absolute concentration of the safety of my lady........or have I.....?......did I ever slip raven?
[20:43] <LadyMist> glad everyone can read through the typos...'blowing kisses'
[20:43] <_mizu_> not in the way i do raven, but even i know when it's time to stop
<raven{Az}> not that I noticed Master..
[20:43] * Azmadeus huggles Bugs too
<raven{Az}> Did you know when you first discovered those physical sensations mizu?
<raven{Az}> when to stop I mean
[20:45] <_mizu_> yes, about the time i disjointed my thumb's and removed the cuff's (giggle)
<raven{Az}> Ahhh..that would do it mizu..giggle
[20:45] <Mongoose> LadyMist: well maybe it's just us young'ns
<raven{Az}> How does a dom learn to use the toys?
<raven{Az}> what are some ways a Dom can learn to use the toys?
[20:46] <redbrat> i taught him..lol
[20:46] <Azmadeus> Use them on your own skin first....
[20:46] <LadyMist> pillows...hot pillows...velvet ones
<raven{Az}> LOL that is one way redbrat..
[20:46] <LadyMist> hit
[20:46] <_mizu_> that and picking Marisha up like she was not even there
[20:46] <Bugs42`> exactlt Az, that is what I do
[20:46] <LadyMist> yep
* raven{Az} listens..
* raven{Az} smiles
[20:46] <redbrat> i was young..lol :)
[20:47] <Mongoose> LadyMist: np
<raven{Az}> Should a dom be willing to learn from the sub?
[20:47] <Azmadeus> Yep....that would be a clue mizu
[20:47] <redbrat> he isn't natural dom
[20:47] <LadyMist> np?
<raven{Az}> even a natural dom has to learn redbrat..
[20:48] <Azmadeus> Anyone wishing to call themselves a Dom should never turn down a chance to learn something new....and each person has new limits and new perceptions....
<raven{Az}> How does one know if they are a "natural" dom or sub?
[20:48] <redbrat> he's still learning from me! lol (husband)
[20:48] <Bugs42`> yes a Dom, should be willing to learn from any and all sources including and in may ways especially a sub
[20:48] <redbrat> that's so true raven
<raven{Az}> well said all.. :)
[20:48] <redbrat> i've "always" been sub
[20:48] <redbrat> can't remember "turning" that way
[20:49] <Azmadeus> ^5 Bugs....Especially the submissive
[20:49] <redbrat> was *it* before i knew the term
* raven{Az} pauses so Bugs can catch up
[20:49] <_mizu_> i have to be sub, would not have learned the control i needed as a Dom
[20:49] <LadyMist> loves switching
<raven{Az}> I wonder about that mizu..sicne a dom has to have more control than a sub..the dom has a heavier responsibility than the sub..the sub is supposed to relax and enjoy..the dom has to remain self controlled enough to continue the play safely..
<raven{Az}> even the mind stuff
[20:50] <_mizu_> to dangerous for me to be a Dom
[20:50] <LadyMist> IMHO.... natural = genetic...
[20:50] <redbrat> Master learned in Japan..while learning they practiced on him...
[20:50] <redbrat> he learned both ways
<raven{Az}> I have to say that there are those who are "genetically
<raven{Az}> patterned to be sub or dom..
<raven{Az}> and that for others..it's a learned behavior..
[20:50] * chensa enters quietly with a small smile
<raven{Az}> I think, that is a personal thing which varies person to person
[20:51] <Mongoose> raven: you shouldn't force a person adginst their nature imho
<raven{Az}> I agree Mongoose..
[20:51] <Bugs42`> I wonder about that about that, I don't like the term natural Dom...
<raven{Az}> why Bugs?
[20:52] <Azmadeus> no raven....I cant agree.....I dont believe there is any genetic patern for anything.....except male and female....
[20:52] * LadyMist sits back....not liking natural....
[20:52] <Bugs42`> you may have a controlling need or something like that, but unl;ess you are willing to learn and be safe about it
[20:52] <LadyMist> I do think our nature is genetic....like sexaulity
[20:52] <Bugs42`> you are not Dom, you are a danger
[20:52] <_mizu_> no, it is society, how we were raized that influences us
[20:52] <LadyMist> I agreee with that
<raven{Az}> What is interesting about this thing Master is that if you get people together who are blood related..but never met..often they are very much alike..
<raven{Az}> what caused that similarity?
[20:53] <LadyMist> influences..but does not shape who we are
<raven{Az}> yes mizu, it does influence us greatly..I can't say it doesn't
<raven{Az}> I agree that one who refuses to learn is a danger ..
[20:53] * chensa sits back and watches the room
<raven{Az}> basically..I was asking, how does one know which they are? sub or dom? or even, both?
[20:54] <Azmadeus> Exactly mizu!....it is our own experiences....even those in infanthood that influance us......some people think that it is those influances in the first three years that are the most telling
[20:54] <Bugs42`> that I can only answer for me, it is just a way that I am and feel comfortable
<raven{Az}> personally, I think it's both..nature and how one is raised and what they experience..
[20:54] <_mizu_> i needed to learn the control, not to control
<raven{Az}> true mizu..
<raven{Az}> just a way that you are..?
[20:55] <cheryl{B}> i have met some subs that knew from dreams when they were little, how do you figure that in?
[20:55] <cyndy36> but we can only be influenced if we are born with the ability to have that tendency..be it submissive or dominant
<raven{Az}> ummm..sounds rather "natural" to me..
[20:55] <redbrat> i grew up being the "adult" in the family from an early age, yet i'm very sub..
[20:55] <chensa> i know i dont have any domme in me... *grins*
<raven{Az}> agreed cyndy
<raven{Az}> good question cheryl..depends on how one views dreams...
[20:55] <LadyMist> but I love being sub...and my first memories....fantasies...are Domme
[20:55] <LadyMist> I agreee cyn
[20:55] <Azmadeus> there are chemical levels in the blood that are determined by genetics....but the overriding influance is our experianmnces
<raven{Az}> is it the emotional aspects of being sub that you love? or the physical sesations being sub provides?
[20:56] <LadyMist> I don't agree
[20:56] <_mizu_> no, needed to focus on something to control the rage, serving and caring for another showed me that i was not alone
<raven{Az}> guess that depends on the person ...
[20:56] <LadyMist> both..the physical and the emotional
[20:56] <_mizu_> that what i did effect's all around me
[20:56] * LadyMist sitting back.....
[20:57] <cyndy36> for me..mostly the emotional needs override the physical ones..but both are there
[20:57] * Azmadeus chuckles....mizu......I did it through a life altering experience....and a lot of prayer and meditation.....that and being scared out of my mind....
[20:57] <Bugs42`> miine are more emotional, bu yes the physical need to be Dom is indeed there
* raven{Az} thinks about her experiences regarding familial similarities after a 26 year absence..and shakes her head slowly..I still think genetics plays a part
[20:58] <_mizu_> so is this if it is done right Sir
<raven{Az}> for me..I need to be sub emotionally, psychologically and physically..
[20:58] <chensa> my sister doesnt have a submissive bone in her body.. i got the family share
<raven{Az}> I met my birth mother..after 26 years apart..the similarities between us were astounding to me..
<raven{Az}> and I mean personality wise..our likes, dislikes..were very closely matched..
<raven{Az}> but we're getting off topic here.. :)
[20:59] <Azmadeus> You may be right raven....we do not know everything the genes are doing to us.......LOL....except aging us....that part os obvious.......
<raven{Az}> true Master.. LOL
<raven{Az}> what are some ways to help a person resolve those feelings for themselves..figure it out and all that?
[20:59] <LadyMist> what was the topic...refreshing memory..
<raven{Az}> Learning The Lifestyle.. :)
[21:00] <LadyMist> thanks...'S"
[21:00] <LadyMist> a patient Dom/me....one who takes thing slowly...is the best way to learn
[21:00] <Azmadeus> Uhmmmmmmm raven........jump in with both feet?
<raven{Az}> I can't agree with that LM..
[21:01] <LadyMist> LOL how different!
<raven{Az}> LOLOL
[21:01] <LadyMist> so you want to jump in?
[21:01] * chensa shakes her head... patience is good
[21:01] <Bugs42`> learning the lifestyle.....I agree LadyMist... or for someone so inclined a poly relationship is great
[21:01] <_mizu_> that is how i learned, slowly, one thing at a time
[21:01] * LadyMist looking at chen....ok
<raven{Az}> patience is a neccesity..
<raven{Az}> but where do you get the information?
[21:02] <LadyMist> cyn?
[21:02] <Azmadeus> I did jump in Lady Mist.......somewhat reluctantly....and my brain was slow to catch up with what my heart already knew...but yes.....
[21:02] <cyndy36> what, LM??
[21:02] <Bugs42`> online now days is great... there are a lot of nice websites
<raven{Az}> actually Master..you're wrong
[21:02] <LadyMist> from a dom'me that gives you all the right books...the right web sights;... that is concerned with your learning
<raven{Az}> agreed Bugs..I think cyber presents a very safe way of learning..
[21:02] * chensa smiles at Lady Mist
<raven{Az}> But good dom/mes are hard to find..
<raven{Az}> many have to learn on their own..we can't expect people to depend on others for everything they learn..
[21:03] <LadyMist> would you like to jump in or take things slowly cyn?
[21:03] <LadyMist> agreed
[21:03] <Bugs42`> the safest I have found and then places to go talk to people
[21:03] <_mizu_> yes they are
[21:03] * _mizu_ giggles
<raven{Az}> Az, you didn't jump in both feet first..
[21:03] * LadyMist acquiring personal info......forgive me...'S'
[21:03] <cyndy36> oh, take things slowly
<raven{Az}> you inched your way in..slowly..very slowly..and added new things as you learned them and got used to them..
[21:04] <Azmadeus> I am raven?......From my POV my first scene was pretty intense.......I do admit it took me two years to come to terms with the emotions and the thoughts that came from it........so in a way I guess you could say I went slowly....but my heart knew the first night.......was my mind and upbringing that got in the way for a while...
[21:05] <cheryl{B}> perhaps watching a prospective Dom play,,whether they play fair
<raven{Az}> still..it took two years to get to the point of physical action ....if you had jumped in, you'd have played sooner
<raven{Az}> that's a good idea cheryl..
[21:05] <LadyMist> agreed.
[21:06] <Bugs42`> I don'y like the idae of watching a prospective dom.me, that is still learning from soemsone new
[21:06] <Mongoose> wow Ron in realtime...
<raven{Az}> I think she meant a prospective Dom watching one who has experience..
[21:06] <Azmadeus> Point given raven.....
[21:07] <Bugs42`> ok, I will agree with that
<raven{Az}> ok..so we have patience..web sites..books..
[21:07] <cheryl{B}> True, i meant a sub watching a dom
<raven{Az}> anything else that someone did to learn from others?
<raven{Az}> a sub watching a dom? cheryl how would that help the dom use the toys?
[21:08] <Bugs42`> did you mean an experienced dom, cherl?
<raven{Az}> or have I lost site of the question?
[21:08] <cheryl{B}> Bugs:yes, experienced Dom
<raven{Az}> what was the hardest thing you have had to learn so far in BDSM? do you think you've mastered it? or do you think you still have a ways to go?
[21:13] <Bugs42`> I still have a ways to go, still learning
[21:14] <Azmadeus> Still learning....hope never to stop......
[21:14] <Bugs42`> the hardest was understanding why I enjoyed it
<raven{Az}> For me, learning when to keep my mouth shut has been hardest..and I still have a LONG way to go..
[21:14] <_mizu_> have no idea
[21:14] <chensa> LOL
[21:14] <chensa> me too raven
<raven{Az}> Ahh yes..that is the hardest one I think Bugs..
<raven{Az}> I meant after that though.. :)
[21:14] <chensa> my mouth ... *trails off*
* raven{Az} rolls her eyes and mumbles..my mouth is just way too much sometimes..
[21:15] <LadyMist> appreciation
<raven{Az}> appreciation of what LM?
[21:15] <Azmadeus> the hardest thing...was accepting that what I was doing was right for me....and for the lady I was lucky enough to be with........
<raven{Az}> I wasn't clear on that..sorry
[21:15] <Bugs42`> limits are hardest, becuase what is said is not what is always meant.... some say more to impress. I try to stay safe
<raven{Az}> I understand..
<raven{Az}> we have all agreed that accepting oneself as a dom or sub (or switch) is the hardest..
[21:16] <LadyMist> I agree
<raven{Az}> I meant..after that..when you get into the daily nuts and bolts of the lifestyle..what was the hardest thing you learned..etc. ?
<raven{Az}> Good point Bugs..that happens far too often..and brings up honesty..one should be very honest with what they say..their experiences and tolerance levels..
[21:17] <Bugs42`> some say less to be safe and are unsatisfied, so learning my partner is hardest for me
[21:17] <_mizu_> how to take care of the dry cleaning (giggle)
<raven{Az}> yes love I know..
<raven{Az}> LOLOL mizu
<raven{Az}> learning one's partner is a hard thing to do..I agree there Bugs..
<raven{Az}> any tricks of the trade so to speak, that should be given to a newbie about learning their partner?
[21:18] <_mizu_> talk
[21:19] <Bugs42`> agreed lots of talk...
* raven{Az} nods..
<raven{Az}> I think observation is another tool many people do NOT use..specially subs..
<raven{Az}> watch your partner closely..see what they do..look for patterns in their behavior..
[21:20] <Bugs42`> yes
[21:20] <_mizu_> yes, but at times that can get you into trouble
<raven{Az}> true mizu..
<raven{Az}> but in some ways..it can help..
[21:21] * Mongoose lags
[21:21] <_mizu_> at times, other's it just drove Marisha nut's, especialy when i started out thinking her
<raven{Az}> Oh yes mizu..I've found many doms that hate that..
[21:21] <LadyMist> but seriously...observation....
<raven{Az}> I have to wonder why a dom would be upset by a sub who can think that quickly..
[21:22] <chensa> observation?
[21:22] <Mongoose> LadyMist: I know a fem dom that likes to be topped by certian guys, is that common?
[21:22] <LadyMist> is an excellent tool to find out what and when and how a sub 'needs'
<raven{Az}> yes.. LM :)
<raven{Az}> as well, it is a good tool for a sub to learn the intricacies of their dom/me
[21:22] <LadyMist> Mongoose I am a switch...have a very nice subbie side...or so I have been told...WEG
[21:23] <LadyMist> that too raven...it does go both ays...
[21:23] <LadyMist> ways even
[21:23] <LadyMist> don't know how commen it is......but don't want to get off topic...'smiling at raven'
<raven{Az}> just about everything goes both ways..doesn't it?
<raven{Az}> thanks LM.. :)
<raven{Az}> it is hard to stay on topic with something like BDSM..one thing leads into another so easily'
[21:24] <LadyMist> agreed
<raven{Az}> that's one thing, how does a switch come to accept that they are indeed both?
<raven{Az}> is it more difficult than accepting being just one or the other?
[21:25] <LadyMist> very more differnet for me
[21:26] <LadyMist> difficult...too
[21:26] <Mongoose> raven: I would say it depends on who you are with
<raven{Az}> How did you resolve it LM?
<raven{Az}> true..
[21:27] <LadyMist> As I said before my first memories are of being Domme....and the pony thing....but then I say the journey of O...really early in life...
[21:27] <Mongoose> raven: I only felt submissive to one person my whole life, but I was with her for 12 out of my 22 years =/
[21:27] <LadyMist> and I do love being helpless...almost the nonconsesual......'shudder and shiver'
[21:27] <chensa> ive always been submissive,,, just didnt have a word for it when i was younger
<raven{Az}> I feel that way chensa..
<raven{Az}> was a major breakthrough to learn the terms that fit the feelings...
[21:28] <LadyMist> and it was easy for me to 'take over' my sexuality after being abused....
[21:28] <chensa> *giggles* and now i know why i cant horseback ride worth anything, the HORSE knows im not in control... that i cant domme it
<raven{Az}> yes..I can understand that LM
[21:28] <Azmadeus> I can understand that Lady Mist
[21:29] <LadyMist> then it was preety easy....I feel in with a educated crowd....got trained....then subbed
[21:29] <LadyMist> got trained as a domme...then subbed....
<raven{Az}> Should a newbie get involved with r/l groups in their area if there is one?
[21:29] <Bugs42`> yes, I think they should
[21:29] <LadyMist> depends,,,,
[21:30] <cyndy36> depends on the group
[21:30] <LadyMist> I have seen groups that were nationally recognized that allowed subs to play intoxicated
[21:30] <Azmadeus> Yes.....cautiously........carefully.......never a one on one at first.......if possible for that person
[21:30] <Mongoose> raven: I don't feel the need to...
[21:30] <Bugs42`> still, I like the idea of groups.. in the long run, I think safer
<raven{Az}> neither do I mongoose..I've never been to a r/l group
<raven{Az}> Well LM, that brings in another question..this is a personal one of mine..
[21:31] <LadyMist> but I have seen broken bones in public that were countenanced by the dungeon Master
[21:31] <LadyMist> OK..shoot
<raven{Az}> what about someone who has to take medication that can be considered "intoxicating" ..does that prevent all play for that person? or should the dom just be more cautious and attentive to the sub?
[21:32] <Bugs42`> much more cautious and attentive
[21:32] <LadyMist> it depends ont he person...the level of submission...how long the Dom/me has known the sub.......lots of things...
[21:32] <Bugs42`> but still play
<raven{Az}> ok..
<raven{Az}> the person..me
<raven{Az}> level of submission..varies depending on Dom from very sub ..to slave under the right conditions..
[21:33] <LadyMist> IMHO....if the drug...(no matter over the counter or not...) if it alters 'you' I won't play...
[21:33] <Bugs42`> agreed LadyMist, it does depend on a lot, but if they need it, do not with hold it
[21:33] <Mongoose> raven: I worry about you and your back...
[21:33] <LadyMist> But their need can wait til they are off meds...
<raven{Az}> can it if the meds are permanent like mine are LM?
[21:34] * panda^ agrees that it should not be withheld
[21:34] <LadyMist> assuming they will and can bee of
<raven{Az}> does one who has a permanent disability and daily pain level have to give up what makes them whole?
[21:34] <Mongoose> raven: do you still play with that injury?
[21:34] <LadyMist> I don't know your situation raven....I just hope that Your Dom knows you...
<raven{Az}> I do too Mongoose..which is why I am extremely careful of what I do..how it is done..and have learned my body very well..
<raven{Az}> yes Mongoose..I do
<raven{Az}> he does..
[21:35] <LadyMist> and feels comfortable in giving you what you need with out harming you
[21:35] <Mongoose> raven: that would make you a different person if you had to give it up
[21:35] <panda^> in raven's case....IMHO....her meds allow her to enjoy what she needs
[21:35] <LadyMist> Good...'bright smile'
<raven{Az}> the only way that I know of to further injure what is wrong with me is to hit it directly...or to drop me on my hip..(left side)
<raven{Az}> I would be...<sigh> not me, that's for sure Mongoose..
[21:35] <LadyMist> wish I knew raven better.....I was NOT attempting to discuss her personall situation
<raven{Az}> I understand LM.. :)
[21:36] <LadyMist> 'S'
<raven{Az}> am not picking at you or anything..just tossing out something that does affect some people..
[21:36] * panda^ knows raven well enough to know that she is very carefly
<raven{Az}> I have a degenerated disk at L4-5..permanent nerve damage to sciatic nerve root at L4-5..and what is now a broken fusion on the left side of the sacroiliac joint..
<raven{Az}> the nerve damamge..is permanent..and will keep me on pain meds for the rest of my life..
[21:37] <LadyMist> I have sciatic nerve problems........yikes..nothing like your though
<raven{Az}> Provided no one hits my lower back..from L3 to S-1..I am fine..
<raven{Az}> as well..there is a nice big scar on the joint..which also can not be hit..
<raven{Az}> but sometimes..I am on meds (for muscle spasms)..that do make me drowsy..should I have to give up play?
[21:38] * LadyMist cringing for you
[21:38] <Mongoose> raven: owie
[21:38] <LadyMist> NOPE
[21:38] <Bugs42`> In my opinion raven... trust not just on your part,but on the Doms part, has to be almost extreme
<raven{Az}> don't LM..I'm ok.. will be even better soon..when they fix the broken fusion..
<raven{Az}> agreed Bugs..and there are very FeW people I trust enough to play with at this point..
[21:38] <Mongoose> raven: no, it's too much a part of you
<raven{Az}> thanks LM.. :)
[21:38] <LadyMist> I hop eand pray....
<raven{Az}> thanks LM..prayers are welcome.. :)
[21:39] * Azmadeus chuckles and uses a magic marker to outline the area on ravens back.......the no hit zone.....heheheh
<raven{Az}> So for those who are disabled and learning the lifestyle..how would one's suggestions change to suit their situation?
<raven{Az}> LOL Az
[21:39] * chensa giggles
[21:39] <LadyMist> hey...Master did that to me once...LOL
[21:39] <Mongoose> Ron: hehe
<raven{Az}> yes Sir.. :) we're still discussing..going to wind it up soon though..but feel free to join in if you want.. :)
[21:39] <WhipMstr> I must be lagged
[21:40] <Mongoose> raven: do no harm is #1, pleasure is #2
<raven{Az}> For those who are disabled..I add things such as..learn anatomy very well..specifically your own body as well as your sub's..
[21:40] * panda^ wonders what the original question was??
<raven{Az}> know your limits..stick to them is even more important under those conditions..
[21:40] * chensa has no idea
[21:40] <Azmadeus> raven.....we have gone from Learning the lifestyle to Playing with disablities...........LOL
<raven{Az}> just different questions on learning the lifestyle panda.. :)
[21:40] <LadyMist> agrees with raven
<raven{Az}> LOLOL yeah..I'm trying to bring it back on track..by asking that question..
[21:40] <panda^> ahhh ok
[21:41] <WhipMstr> aactually I have used magic marker to show on a sub where a person could hit it helped him with his swing with his subbie
<raven{Az}> Now that's an idea I have not heard before..
<raven{Az}> I like that WM.. :)
[21:42] <Azmadeus> WM.........Keep your shoulders leveland follow thru.....or is that a golf drive..........heheheheh
[21:42] <Bugs42`> golf and tennis
<raven{Az}> WM, what do you find most important to tell someone who is new?
[21:43] <WhipMstr> and on some subbies it is hard to see where the tailbone is when they are bent over something
<raven{Az}> not on me..mine sticks way way up.. LOL
<raven{Az}> but yes..in general that is true..
[21:43] <LadyMist> so have then laying down...
[21:43] <WhipMstr> PLay with friends you trust and never play alone with someone you do not know
[21:44] <LadyMist> them lieing.
[21:44] * dragn{Az} giggles at Az
[21:44] <LadyMist> yikes,,,it si to late to spelll
<raven{Az}> agreed WM.. :)
Ended there.
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